WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.760 And when we don't get to do what we feel like God called us to do. 00:00:05.480 --> 00:00:13.100 And I would say generally that about 90% of the disappointment in that is usually about timing. 00:00:13.920 --> 00:00:16.040 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:16.940 --> 00:00:20.880 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church. 00:00:21.220 --> 00:00:24.700 But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. 00:00:25.320 --> 00:00:26.920 Is disciple making possible digitally? 00:00:27.300 --> 00:00:29.400 How should we approach the digital mission field? 00:00:29.400 --> 00:00:32.260 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? 00:00:32.660 --> 00:00:36.580 Oh, and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this? 00:00:37.620 --> 00:00:46.160 Whether you're a big or small church, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, digitally and physically. 00:00:46.680 --> 00:00:48.280 And now here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:00:48.600 --> 00:00:52.180 Episode 286, 286 of the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:52.380 --> 00:00:55.220 Once again, Jeff Reed here, founder of the Church Digital. 00:00:55.220 --> 00:01:01.880 And I am excited about this conversation coming up with my friend, John Pyle. 00:01:01.980 --> 00:01:08.400 But before we get into episode 286, all this is brought to you by Riverside. 00:01:08.600 --> 00:01:09.700 And you know what? 00:01:09.740 --> 00:01:11.980 Every week I talk about Riverside. 00:01:12.360 --> 00:01:22.160 And I love the artificial intelligence and the abilities that Riverside's baking into their platform, constantly making things better. 00:01:22.240 --> 00:01:24.820 This week I want to feature one thing. 00:01:24.960 --> 00:01:29.120 And honestly, this is going to get maybe a little more practical than we usually get here on the podcast. 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:32.480 But I honestly didn't know this existed until maybe a month ago. 00:01:32.480 --> 00:01:34.020 And I was like, this is freaking cool. 00:01:34.160 --> 00:01:35.800 And I want to talk about chapters. 00:01:36.120 --> 00:01:46.400 And so basically, one of the things that Riverside platform does is once you do the recording and use the AI to scan it, it gives you a list of chapters and topics on there. 00:01:46.500 --> 00:01:50.160 So at 0-0-0, it's the beginning of the podcast, the introduction. 00:01:50.380 --> 00:01:55.060 And then at 8 minutes and 47 seconds, this is the topic that comes up. 00:01:55.120 --> 00:01:59.400 And so it gives you basically an index listing of what you're talking about on the podcast. 00:01:59.520 --> 00:02:00.880 And I always thought, oh, that's cool. 00:02:00.940 --> 00:02:02.620 And at times with the time code, that's nice. 00:02:02.720 --> 00:02:11.840 But I never really used it until just recently we started utilizing that topic feature, really, as we started getting into Season 6 here on the podcast. 00:02:11.840 --> 00:02:32.220 And what I discovered, thank you very much, Captain Obvious on my side, is that when you paste that into YouTube, YouTube turns that into links where users can just click on the time code and automatically scan immediately to the point of the podcast recording the YouTube video that you're talking about. 00:02:32.220 --> 00:02:43.700 So if I want to click on 47 minutes and 32 seconds in the description, that link scans the video up to 47.32, where I can hear that specific clip in real time, blown away. 00:02:43.920 --> 00:02:45.580 Like, it shouldn't have been that obvious. 00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:46.740 It should be much more obvious. 00:02:47.040 --> 00:02:48.940 I'm kind of slow in the grand scheme of things. 00:02:49.240 --> 00:02:53.480 But once again, it's another example how, you know, Riverside's making YouTube awesome. 00:02:53.980 --> 00:02:58.740 And even as a guy that's active in this platform, I'm constantly learning more and more about it. 00:02:58.920 --> 00:03:03.880 And even on the podcast side, your ability to, with the podcast app, to skip forward. 00:03:04.660 --> 00:03:07.780 And in some apps, you can click on it as well to go straight to that. 00:03:08.200 --> 00:03:17.360 Like Riverside, I am blown away at how it's helping our platform, the Church Digital Podcast, become better and better. 00:03:17.720 --> 00:03:19.440 So Riverside, thank you for what you're doing. 00:03:19.540 --> 00:03:23.440 For more information on Riverside, thechurch.digital slash Riverside. 00:03:23.500 --> 00:03:24.320 Go and click on that. 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:26.260 Find out more about Riverside. 00:03:26.440 --> 00:03:29.340 Thechurch.digital slash Riverside. 00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:36.400 Okay, let's get into my friend here, John Pyle, or as some of us more affectionately call him, Russian Spambot. 00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:39.940 You see, John Pyle, let's just be honest here. 00:03:40.040 --> 00:03:42.140 Like, I've never been in the same room with John. 00:03:42.580 --> 00:03:47.440 John may actually be the person I am closest with, yet I've never breathed the same air molecules of. 00:03:47.980 --> 00:03:59.640 And so, like, as we talk about digital relationships and the ability to care for one another, to invest in one another, to know each other, my friend John, he and I are those two. 00:03:59.640 --> 00:04:09.920 Like, I really do emotionally care for this guy, yet I've never actually been in the same state as him, I believe. 00:04:10.140 --> 00:04:11.020 I think I can say that. 00:04:11.060 --> 00:04:12.460 He may have went to Disney World at some point. 00:04:12.500 --> 00:04:14.000 I need to actually dig into that. 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:15.300 But here's where we are. 00:04:15.440 --> 00:04:19.360 And so, honestly, I wanted to have a conversation with John. 00:04:19.480 --> 00:04:23.260 And so, I was like, hey, John, let's get together and let's do this podcast. 00:04:23.460 --> 00:04:24.480 We're going to do it on this topic. 00:04:25.260 --> 00:04:33.940 But, man, when I got, like, John on the Riverside platform and wanted to have a conversation with him to really start the podcast, forget that topic, man. 00:04:33.960 --> 00:04:35.860 I just wanted to have a conversation with my friend. 00:04:36.100 --> 00:04:39.680 And so, we ended up doing an hour-long conversation, just talking. 00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:48.920 And so, ladies and gentlemen, audience out there, I present to you John Pyle, a conversation. 00:04:49.280 --> 00:04:58.300 Like, John Pyle, the man, the Russian spam bot, just a conversation with him of me relationally catching up with my friend. 00:04:58.800 --> 00:04:59.700 There's going to be tips. 00:04:59.820 --> 00:05:00.640 There's going to be insights. 00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:02.360 There's going to be things that you don't want to miss. 00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:08.120 Biblical truths to better understand digital context in the hemisphere that we live in. 00:05:08.180 --> 00:05:08.660 I don't know. 00:05:09.220 --> 00:05:14.100 But you, ladies and gentlemen, simply put, conversation with John Pyle. 00:05:16.500 --> 00:05:23.260 Wow, man, you know, it's so exciting being an adult because everything changes and nothing changes when people ask you that. 00:05:23.940 --> 00:05:28.820 Because, like, I don't know, we still live in the same house, still got the same two kids, still the same wife, right? 00:05:29.800 --> 00:05:31.760 And still the same job, right? 00:05:31.840 --> 00:05:34.960 But I've obviously been continuing with the podcast. 00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:37.880 I'm in kind of an odd season right now. 00:05:37.880 --> 00:05:50.580 And it's a season of, and I actually, because I can share maybe too much sometimes, I shared a little bit on social media with a gif from Rocky III where he's on the beach screaming, I'm afraid! 00:05:51.780 --> 00:06:02.180 Just in a season of just God kind of pointing out some of the things that are under the surface in my life that have been running in the background, if you will. 00:06:02.180 --> 00:06:05.600 You know, when you take out your phone and you go, how many apps do I got running? 00:06:07.500 --> 00:06:13.120 One of the 80-something apps that I have running is the Fear app in my own life right now. 00:06:13.200 --> 00:06:19.600 And so I've been kind of digging into that and what does that mean and what does it mean to close that to get better performance? 00:06:20.240 --> 00:06:29.140 You know, one of the things, John, I love about you and just the conversations that we have is you are, man, you're unfiltered in a good way. 00:06:29.140 --> 00:06:36.700 You know, not dropping F-bombs like crazy, but you're just like, you're not afraid to have the hard conversations and the real conversations. 00:06:37.060 --> 00:06:40.740 And, you know, I think equally, I don't know that scene from Rocky III. 00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:51.060 I'm really not a Rocky guy in the grand scheme of movies, but the fear, you know, that's something over the past six months, nine months of my life. 00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:54.580 I mean, I've encountered a lot and, you know, we're going to get into that. 00:06:54.760 --> 00:06:56.180 So let's just keep going. 00:06:56.420 --> 00:06:58.880 Man, you know, it was funny, John. 00:06:58.960 --> 00:07:03.880 I was trying to remember where I actually met you, how we got connected. 00:07:04.040 --> 00:07:05.720 I think you've been on this podcast before. 00:07:06.080 --> 00:07:13.980 Like, you know, you have been so integral into the Church Digital with what you're doing with the podcast, with You're Better on the Inside. 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:15.600 You know, Andy loves you. 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:19.880 You're doing stuff with From Text to Testimony with that podcast as well. 00:07:20.100 --> 00:07:22.440 And it's like, you're so tied into stuff. 00:07:22.940 --> 00:07:28.220 But I start asking questions like, you know, has anybody actually ever been in the same room with John Pyle? 00:07:29.020 --> 00:07:36.380 And so part of me wants to, like, are you a Russian spam bot? 00:07:36.580 --> 00:07:45.620 Like, have we gotten to the place with AI that you can fake John Pyle's existence, like where you are not actually a real person? 00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:49.820 Because I thought Tom was this way and Tom Pounder, but I actually met Tom. 00:07:50.060 --> 00:07:53.340 And so you're unproven in this space, man. 00:07:53.620 --> 00:07:55.060 Like, what do you think about this? 00:07:55.320 --> 00:07:56.240 Oh, no, comrades. 00:07:56.380 --> 00:07:57.120 The jig is up. 00:07:59.820 --> 00:08:01.760 Tear down the studio. 00:08:01.980 --> 00:08:06.760 The Americans have cut onto us in the worst Russian accent you've ever heard. 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:07.860 Oh, my gosh. 00:08:07.860 --> 00:08:10.060 If you're not watching this on YouTube, just go over there. 00:08:10.140 --> 00:08:10.860 Catch the clip. 00:08:11.100 --> 00:08:12.520 Like, that was beautiful. 00:08:12.520 --> 00:08:16.340 Your little accent with the hand motions was so good. 00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:23.000 Every time I, yeah, every time I'm going to, like, meet somebody or meet up, like, Andy was in Marble Falls not that long ago. 00:08:23.040 --> 00:08:26.880 And a bunch of y'all were in Marble Falls for a thing. 00:08:27.480 --> 00:08:28.520 Gosh, what was it called? 00:08:29.220 --> 00:08:30.320 I can't remember what it was called. 00:08:30.940 --> 00:08:31.160 Yeah. 00:08:31.540 --> 00:08:33.540 And I was just like, oh, yeah, I'll come up there. 00:08:33.580 --> 00:08:35.820 And then I just, I wasn't able to do it. 00:08:35.860 --> 00:08:37.240 Like, stuff always gets in the way. 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:40.460 So we're going to have to meet up in person at some point. 00:08:41.180 --> 00:08:41.620 We do. 00:08:41.740 --> 00:08:42.080 We do. 00:08:42.200 --> 00:08:46.420 I'm doing a lot of work in Dallas these days, not down south where you are. 00:08:46.520 --> 00:08:49.620 But I got to find an excuse to come down or meet in the middle. 00:08:49.940 --> 00:08:50.700 We'll figure it out. 00:08:51.580 --> 00:08:52.860 Totally and completely. 00:08:53.120 --> 00:09:01.300 Well, listen, you know, when I booked this conversation with John, it was, hey, John, I really want to talk about this topic. 00:09:01.300 --> 00:09:07.460 And we're going to get into the topic here, you know, with hyperlocal and digital here in a little bit. 00:09:08.540 --> 00:09:22.920 But just to be honest, man, like, as I was doing the prep for that interview, it was, man, I really just want to catch up with my friend here and have a heartfelt conversation with somebody that I respect and learn from. 00:09:22.920 --> 00:09:30.300 And rather than getting into this particular topic, listening audience, I'm just going to be honest, like, I just want to have a conversation. 00:09:30.740 --> 00:09:35.100 And so we are going to do something different for the podcast where we're going to we're going to roam a little bit. 00:09:35.160 --> 00:09:37.020 We're going to hit some some different topics. 00:09:37.220 --> 00:09:42.780 Just maybe get into, you know, I always prep the speaker, the guest here on the podcast. 00:09:42.880 --> 00:09:51.420 It's like, man, just pretend it's you and me sitting around a Starbucks coffee table, drinking iced coffee and just just talking, you know, and some people can pull that off. 00:09:51.460 --> 00:09:53.160 To be honest, some people really can't. 00:09:53.200 --> 00:10:08.100 But that's that's what I'm looking for here is, man, I just want to sit at a coffee house with my friend who may or may not, in fact, be a Russian spam bot and and have a heartfelt conversation with him about about life, about ministry, about digital and what's going on. 00:10:08.100 --> 00:10:12.660 And so if you've not had the pleasure, because John's like has maybe been on this podcast once. 00:10:13.080 --> 00:10:17.160 We've tied him in with other things and he's part of the podcast network with Better on the Inside. 00:10:17.400 --> 00:10:31.640 But John, maybe open up here, talks a little bit better on the inside, like what's that talked about about your podcast, even from text to testimony, like maybe set up a little bit about what those two pieces of content are. 00:10:32.180 --> 00:10:35.080 Yeah, it's it's so interesting that you talk about that, Jeff. 00:10:35.080 --> 00:10:36.740 Well, first of all, it's great to see you. 00:10:37.140 --> 00:10:39.540 And it was one of those things where it's like, I feel like I've known you forever. 00:10:39.980 --> 00:10:44.400 And how do you know how you know somebody that's just been so integrated in your life? 00:10:44.700 --> 00:10:55.820 And so whether it's from test text to testimony or Better on the Inside and even the first time I was on this podcast, it's all kind of linked back to this idea of soul care. 00:10:56.620 --> 00:11:02.780 And, you know, in Better on the Inside in this season, it's soul care in the digital age and trying to figure out what that looks like. 00:11:02.900 --> 00:11:05.360 And it all kind of rose out of a need. 00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:20.640 This this niche that I found has kind of rose out of a need that I've seen as people's soul seems to be kind of eaten and dwindled and crushed and kind of sucked out of them in what they're what they're doing in everyday life. 00:11:20.640 --> 00:11:26.320 And we have all these great systems and abilities and all of that, especially in the digital world. 00:11:26.460 --> 00:11:28.620 But how much of it is really helping our soul? 00:11:29.080 --> 00:11:33.340 And that's why we connected in the first place. 00:11:33.460 --> 00:11:35.620 And that's, you know, I remember the first podcast. 00:11:35.620 --> 00:11:37.880 I was doing it from my in-law's bedroom. 00:11:38.760 --> 00:11:44.200 I don't even remember why, but something schedule wise ran where I had to drop off a kid or pick up a kid. 00:11:44.400 --> 00:11:46.640 And I didn't have time to get back to the office. 00:11:46.640 --> 00:11:48.940 And it was like, OK, I'll do it in their bedroom. 00:11:49.300 --> 00:11:52.580 And so I was in, you know, I was in their bedroom doing that. 00:11:52.800 --> 00:11:55.400 And it's been about soul care. 00:11:55.460 --> 00:11:57.380 Like, it's really been about that idea. 00:11:57.380 --> 00:12:08.200 And part of this season, Jeff, has been for me, has been a season of what what is really my thing and what is the thing that I really want to focus on and do? 00:12:08.360 --> 00:12:10.020 Because I'm a yes guy. 00:12:10.140 --> 00:12:14.140 I say yes to a lot of things and I want to try to do a lot of things. 00:12:14.400 --> 00:12:17.240 And it always seems to come back. 00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:22.680 The stuff that really seems to connect with people and stay with people is the soul care piece. 00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:24.860 What a hot topic. 00:12:25.300 --> 00:12:26.260 What a relevant topic. 00:12:26.400 --> 00:12:35.100 What a necessary topic really for us as the church to to dive into and better understand the digital implications of soul care. 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:43.240 And to be honest, that's really why I love the show that you're doing from text to testimony with Andy Mage and and Megan, Megan Carter. 00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:48.420 You know, it's interesting, John, like, you know, I so much respect for you. 00:12:48.520 --> 00:12:51.280 So much respect for for Andy. 00:12:51.880 --> 00:12:56.240 But Megan Carter on that show, what she contributes is like, holy crap. 00:12:56.360 --> 00:12:57.360 She's you know, and it's just I. 00:12:58.360 --> 00:12:59.560 Oh, my gosh. 00:12:59.560 --> 00:13:14.940 Like, you know, I'm listening to the three of you, you know, once again, just having transparent, open conversations, not only of of how to meet people that are going through crisis and traumatic situations, but how to protect yourselves in that moment in those situations as well. 00:13:14.940 --> 00:13:27.460 You know, to put up the boundaries and the barriers and the support groups to sustain the ministry in that like it's so necessary for for people that really want to be effective digitally. 00:13:27.460 --> 00:13:37.180 And so we'll put links in the show notes to better on the inside and from text to testimony like, you know, hey, I'm glad you all listening to the church digital podcast and we have fun here. 00:13:37.260 --> 00:13:41.480 But the stuff that they're doing over there, you know, from from a mental health, from a soul care perspective. 00:13:41.480 --> 00:13:42.560 Oh, my gosh. 00:13:43.020 --> 00:13:44.100 It's so good. 00:13:44.760 --> 00:13:49.600 And and really, John, this is maybe let's kick off the conversation here. 00:13:49.660 --> 00:13:57.320 Like I said, we're going to be a wavy conversation, but I really want to pull on this this thread of of mental health and soul care. 00:13:57.320 --> 00:14:02.580 Now, it's interesting, like you've equated you said soul care and digital. 00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:06.800 I have even started blending the two together, mental health and soul care. 00:14:06.900 --> 00:14:13.200 But I know that they mean different things for those that may not understand that or your perspective anyway. 00:14:13.580 --> 00:14:16.420 Like, tell me the difference between mental health and soul care. 00:14:16.420 --> 00:14:17.740 Yeah, great question. 00:14:17.740 --> 00:14:23.220 And so mental health in the way that I see it as a non like licensed professional. 00:14:23.220 --> 00:14:32.620 But mental health is the piece that is focusing on not just the some of it is the physical and the physiology of your brain and how it works. 00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:43.820 But the mental health part is managing your emotions, feelings and figuring out, you know, trauma, anxiety, depression and some of these things that we experience as humans. 00:14:43.820 --> 00:14:51.860 And a lot a lot more people have been experiencing those anxious moments, dealing with depression, kind of uncovering trauma. 00:14:51.860 --> 00:14:56.780 And we've we've collectively come through kind of a trauma piece together. 00:14:56.780 --> 00:14:58.880 And I mean, you know, come through right. 00:14:58.880 --> 00:15:03.920 Like with millions of people dead and still figuring out covid and what that looks like. 00:15:03.920 --> 00:15:14.120 And so the mental health piece is something that every human being, every single human being, no matter what, it's closer to health care for the emotions. 00:15:14.120 --> 00:15:16.180 I guess that's probably the best way to say it. 00:15:16.180 --> 00:15:20.860 Right. Health care for the emotions and soul care is a little different. 00:15:21.060 --> 00:15:24.020 And so soul care speaks to something a little bit deeper. 00:15:24.020 --> 00:15:31.480 And as people of faith, we believe that people have a soul, that there's something supernatural that goes just beyond this world. 00:15:31.760 --> 00:15:34.760 There's something about us that's that's an essence. 00:15:34.760 --> 00:15:38.980 There's something that's that's more than just the links in our brains. 00:15:38.980 --> 00:15:42.160 That's more than just the impulses that we have. 00:15:42.160 --> 00:15:44.400 That's more than just the feelings and emotions. 00:15:44.920 --> 00:15:52.860 There's something that is essentially us, but it is maybe an intangible quality to us that lives within us. 00:15:52.860 --> 00:15:56.720 And so the soul care piece is taking care of that essence of you. 00:15:57.220 --> 00:15:59.500 It's taking care of the peace within you. 00:16:00.060 --> 00:16:02.900 You know, people say things like inner child. 00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:05.820 That's not where I really think of the soul piece. 00:16:06.220 --> 00:16:10.060 You know, in my faith tradition, it's the part of you that's God. 00:16:10.200 --> 00:16:10.400 Right. 00:16:10.420 --> 00:16:13.960 It's the part of you that was created by God that will live forever. 00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:16.560 The soul is not going to pass away. 00:16:16.660 --> 00:16:19.200 Well, you know, whatever you believe about the afterlife. 00:16:19.420 --> 00:16:22.180 And so the soul is always with you. 00:16:22.180 --> 00:16:23.460 And it's really who you are. 00:16:23.480 --> 00:16:24.700 And this body is temporary. 00:16:24.700 --> 00:16:26.500 We all know that everybody dies. 00:16:26.500 --> 00:16:37.780 And so at some point, mental health issues will be off the table because you just you don't have all of that forever. 00:16:38.120 --> 00:16:40.380 Your body is we've all seen it. 00:16:40.380 --> 00:16:40.620 Right. 00:16:40.640 --> 00:16:41.620 We've all gotten older. 00:16:41.760 --> 00:16:42.740 We all know what it's like. 00:16:43.460 --> 00:16:46.340 And then on the other hand, the soul part lasts forever. 00:16:46.840 --> 00:16:49.680 It's an it's an eternal part of us. 00:16:49.800 --> 00:17:01.260 And so so much of life we spend kind of focused on this now piece, the the physical, the mental, the what our bodies and our brains do. 00:17:01.460 --> 00:17:08.720 We spend a lot of time trying to get that part healthy, sometimes to the neglect of the eternal part of us, the soul. 00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:18.400 I don't think I'd ever equated that that mental health was was more of a temporary aspect and in so care was eternal or virtually eternal. 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:20.120 That's that's really interesting. 00:17:20.120 --> 00:17:31.240 Do you as a as a pastor who's in this space, do you find it difficult to to balance, to to go back and forth between soul care and mental health mindsets? 00:17:31.240 --> 00:17:35.120 Do you find a bias to lean more one way versus another? 00:17:35.560 --> 00:17:39.560 Like, do you just is it like a conscious or an unconscious thing? 00:17:39.560 --> 00:17:42.760 Like, talk to me about the how you operate in the hemispheres. 00:17:43.160 --> 00:17:45.960 It's really hard because they're interlinked. 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:50.440 It would be one thing if it was like clearly separate of, oh, this is a mental health problem. 00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:52.000 This is a soul problem. 00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:58.480 But they're all just kind of linked up together and kind of mashed together in a way that you can't remove it. 00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:01.240 It's like trying to remove the flour from a cake that you baked. 00:18:01.760 --> 00:18:04.560 Right. Like, it's just it's all tangled up in there. 00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:19.180 And so I certainly can see how I've never encountered a person who might be dealing with a mental health issue that didn't also have some connection to the soul. 00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:37.120 It's it's it's almost impossible to completely remove those things from each other, even innocent, even in like the most extreme situation of people who are, you know, dealing with the kind of spiritual war fairy kind of stuff. 00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:42.460 There's usually a mental health component that's there, too, that you want to make sure you check in on. 00:18:42.460 --> 00:18:51.600 And so because you can't un interlink these things, what I realize is that as a pastor, I don't have a Ph.D. 00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:54.300 I'm not even a licensed counselor. 00:18:54.300 --> 00:19:06.300 And so I will try my best to leave the mental health stuff to the professionals and focus on the soul care piece, because I do have an advanced degree in that I do have a lot of practice hours in that. 00:19:06.300 --> 00:19:11.540 I am able to pastor and help people's souls in that regard. 00:19:11.540 --> 00:19:17.520 But I can never completely unlink it from the mental health part, but that's not what I'm an expert in. 00:19:17.520 --> 00:19:30.340 So the example is like, I'm not going to give you a treatment plan and I'm not going to counsel you for every week for six years, because there are people that have spent their whole lives being able to do that. 00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:36.080 So, you know, by counseling, I mean, like meeting with you formally and all that stuff. 00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:43.940 What I can do as a pastor is help get you on the right path and connect you to good mental health resources to go along with your soul journey. 00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:56.160 You know, most of our churches probably have some level of pastoral care where they've got someone that's that's, you know, listening, doing the three counseling sessions or whatever it is. 00:19:56.160 --> 00:20:04.420 And then, you know, triage referring on, you know, and I've had conversations with AACC, American Association Christian Counselors. 00:20:04.420 --> 00:20:17.720 And, you know, they challenged us as digital pastors to be triaged, kind of have the conversations, understand where people are and then help them get the help that they need, whether that's in the church or outside of the church. 00:20:18.140 --> 00:20:19.440 You know, Megan Carter, it's interesting. 00:20:19.580 --> 00:20:25.300 She said, you know, it's a similar thing where she's like, yeah, I don't we don't create treatment plans with what we're doing. 00:20:25.420 --> 00:20:29.400 And so but that's it's more of helping people get to get to that next step. 00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:33.220 Well, and she's studying to come to the treatment plans, but she's not quite there yet. 00:20:34.220 --> 00:20:39.860 Are is that is that how you're operating as well, where it's more of that triage and resourcing? 00:20:39.980 --> 00:20:41.900 Like, talk to me a little bit about what that looks like. 00:20:42.120 --> 00:20:50.280 I'm so glad to talk about that because I'm responsible for pastoral care for our church and it's a lot of people here and that's not like a flex. 00:20:50.340 --> 00:20:54.280 That's just the reality of there's a lot of people and a lot of people need help. 00:20:54.440 --> 00:21:02.920 And so from the pastoral care perspective, the best thing we can do for most people is help them find the next step. 00:21:03.420 --> 00:21:09.060 So I shouldn't say the best thing, I should say the best action step, because triage is the perfect way to talk about it. 00:21:09.180 --> 00:21:17.800 And most days it feels like being a battlefield medic, but on the spiritual warfare battlefield of you're just getting people that are coming to you with intense pain. 00:21:18.040 --> 00:21:22.980 Because for the most part, people that are just kind of happy don't call to make an appointment with the pastor. 00:21:23.860 --> 00:21:24.920 They just don't. 00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:32.300 They're not like, hey, let's talk to the pastor about like it's intense pain, an intense season, a hard decision, a breakup. 00:21:33.080 --> 00:21:39.540 You know, a kid, a splitting of a relationship with a child, like there's a there's a severe pain. 00:21:39.720 --> 00:21:43.040 And so they come to us and they're essentially saying, take away the pain. 00:21:43.820 --> 00:21:52.340 And so we can kind of as a battlefield medic sometimes have to be like, OK, drink this whiskey, bite on this piece of wood, and I'm going to cut your leg off. 00:21:52.340 --> 00:21:58.520 Like you have to just go, I'm going to treat you in the moment to stop the bleeding, whatever that is, whatever you're going through. 00:21:58.640 --> 00:22:11.980 We're just going to stop the bleeding right now long term for like full healing and rehabilitation of this root issue, because the best thing that we can do in pastoral care is point to a root issue. 00:22:13.100 --> 00:22:24.860 So if a couple comes to me and they're arguing and they're thinking about getting a divorce, one of the best things I can do is kind of come up with, OK, here's the things that I'm hearing you say around the issues. 00:22:24.860 --> 00:22:29.440 It's that his mother won't butt out and he won't stand up to his mother and you resent his mother. 00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:37.100 Right. And so you have this thing that's in the center and you can kind of frame the issue and then help them take the next steps to help that issue. 00:22:37.100 --> 00:22:43.760 Or it's an individual going everything you're talking about sounds like you're going through a little bit of an anxiety attack right now. 00:22:44.440 --> 00:22:47.820 And you're like, so just know, hey, that's happening. 00:22:48.380 --> 00:22:49.200 I'm here with you. 00:22:49.260 --> 00:22:50.080 I'm sitting with you. 00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:50.960 I'll pray with you. 00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:55.500 And I'll also try to connect you with the counselor who can help you find that next step. 00:22:55.700 --> 00:23:03.700 And so that that's what pastoral care, I think, looks like, especially in the digital age with all of these resources that are available. 00:23:04.020 --> 00:23:07.220 It's not enough just to be their pastor. 00:23:07.540 --> 00:23:18.220 You also want to be their networker in chief, the person who knows the resources to point them to build relationships with counseling centers locally and online. 00:23:18.220 --> 00:23:24.120 There are a lot of people that operate online and be able to connect people so that they can actually get the help they need. 00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:27.680 We can get into it's Megan talked a lot about the networking there. 00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:45.380 And we're going to be we're going to be pulling the thread more on this, you know, ACC as well, trying to reconnect with some friends over there from from last year and to continue on that that conversation about how we as pastors can can really better understand the relationship between mental health and soul care. 00:23:45.460 --> 00:23:47.060 I don't know that we need to be mental health experts. 00:23:47.060 --> 00:23:54.220 I don't know that we can be or unless we want to put in the time to to study to better understand the science behind it. 00:23:54.440 --> 00:24:05.580 But at least to understand how to triage is just a word that that people in those fields keep saying to me, triage and help get people connected to the best possible action step. 00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:06.180 That's so good. 00:24:06.260 --> 00:24:07.240 Best possible action step. 00:24:07.760 --> 00:24:08.540 Good stuff. 00:24:09.400 --> 00:24:11.760 Listen, I'm going to I'm going to be transparent. 00:24:11.760 --> 00:24:15.220 When you said chop your leg off, I I I winced a little bit. 00:24:15.800 --> 00:24:18.300 You know, I've had a conversation. 00:24:18.460 --> 00:24:20.960 John, I don't even know if I've really had this conversation with you directly. 00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:24.240 But, you know, I took I took a six month break. 00:24:24.800 --> 00:24:30.980 You know, a lot of little T traumas we're going to get into later on in the podcast, just in my own life. 00:24:31.780 --> 00:24:44.000 And one of those things that I've blogged about it, I don't think I've talked about it too much, but my diabetes type two and really it looks like I've had diabetes type two for years untreated. 00:24:45.060 --> 00:24:52.220 A situation in my life where, you know, I bluntly, I was a running a startup company. 00:24:52.220 --> 00:24:56.620 We didn't have insurance and my wife was a part time employee who didn't have insurance. 00:24:56.620 --> 00:25:02.380 And so we had Obamacare for the kids and, you know, really just discarded our own health in some of those situations. 00:25:02.380 --> 00:25:05.000 And and I knew some things were off, but it wasn't a big deal. 00:25:05.060 --> 00:25:05.660 It wasn't a big deal. 00:25:05.700 --> 00:25:09.340 It wasn't a big deal until my wife went full time and got insurance. 00:25:09.340 --> 00:25:21.020 And then, you know, the doctor started listing off all the things that were wrong with me and, you know, to be to be honest, like my I'm 46 years old and I walk with a cane. 00:25:21.820 --> 00:25:29.060 My wife actually said to me the other day because there was some medical things that were wrong with my legs and I'm I'm seeing neurologists. 00:25:29.060 --> 00:25:32.000 I'm seeing vascular surgeons. 00:25:32.300 --> 00:25:35.680 I literally have seven doctors right now on speed dial on my phone. 00:25:35.680 --> 00:25:43.060 I can show it to you and because that's that's what my medical life looks like right now because my body is so screwed up. 00:25:43.820 --> 00:25:48.820 And so literally the chopping the leg off like that, that stung a little bit. 00:25:48.820 --> 00:25:51.160 I know you didn't mean it that way, but that that hit closer to home. 00:25:51.760 --> 00:25:57.820 But it really set up this this next question that I wanted to get into where I want to talk about like disappointments, 00:25:57.820 --> 00:26:06.700 because there's things that I thought was going to happen in 23 that that didn't happen because of the little T traumas that I had to stop for. 00:26:07.040 --> 00:26:12.080 There are things that I wanted to do and I felt like God was I'm going to be very honest here. 00:26:12.080 --> 00:26:18.060 I felt like God was leading me to do some stuff in 24 and I'm looking at the way 24 is going to be. 00:26:18.120 --> 00:26:23.040 I know God's in control, which is actually a double edged sword because I know God's in control of my life. 00:26:23.040 --> 00:26:28.720 But then I know that God's in control of my life, meaning he's approving the pain that I'm going through on a regular basis. 00:26:29.120 --> 00:26:34.120 And so how do we how do you how do you manage this? 00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:39.040 The tension between you feel like God's leading you in another direction. 00:26:39.360 --> 00:26:41.280 Yet in reality, you're not seeing that happen. 00:26:41.360 --> 00:26:45.240 Like what is what is is that? Is that disappointment? Is that anger, frustration? 00:26:46.200 --> 00:26:47.480 How do we manage that? 00:26:47.820 --> 00:26:51.040 All of the above. It's disappointment. It's anger. It's frustration. 00:26:51.040 --> 00:26:54.480 And it challenges our view of ourself. It challenges our view of God. 00:26:54.880 --> 00:27:05.340 And, you know, I as I've been thinking about my own disappointments and what I was hoping would happen is that we actually have to grieve our expectations. 00:27:05.760 --> 00:27:13.960 Sometimes we actually have to grieve when our expectations don't pan out and in our heads we go, OK, we move on. 00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:17.800 It wasn't real. It was just kind of like there's not a tangible thing. 00:27:17.800 --> 00:27:27.480 Like when we when a loved one is struggling, there's something more tangible to grieve or when we have a health problem, there's something more tangible to grieve. 00:27:27.600 --> 00:27:35.960 But a lot of times we don't take the time to grieve our plans, our goals, our expectations or what it feels like God was calling us to. 00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:40.840 And unfortunately or fortunately, like words create worlds. 00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:45.420 And so we talk about these things that we want to do and we get hope in our heart. 00:27:45.520 --> 00:27:50.660 Right. And hope makes our heart sick sometimes with with this feeling. 00:27:50.800 --> 00:28:01.560 And so I think we don't take the time to properly grieve when our expectations aren't met and when we don't get to do what we feel like God called us to do. 00:28:01.800 --> 00:28:09.920 And I would say generally that about 90 percent of the disappointment in that is usually about timing. 00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:23.940 I've been reading David's story and it struck me as I was doing trying to research it and I don't have the exact year, but he's anointed kind of king as a teenager while there's already another king. 00:28:24.780 --> 00:28:32.780 And he's told he's going to be the king of Israel and it's about 20 years until he has the whole kingdom. 00:28:34.580 --> 00:28:37.380 And part of it is he's waiting for Saul. 00:28:37.580 --> 00:28:44.740 And even when Saul passes away, he becomes the king of like the southern kingdom, like the Judah piece of that. 00:28:44.740 --> 00:28:56.120 And there's still more that has to happen with Benjamin and there's brutal war and there's relatives and loved ones that die till he actually presides over Israel. 00:28:56.700 --> 00:29:07.580 And so a lot of times God may have anointed you or called you to something and your responsibility is not to succeed in it, but to pursue it. 00:29:07.740 --> 00:29:15.940 And the timing part God is going to take care of and sometimes we think it's going to be a one year thing that's actually a rest of the life thing, right? 00:29:16.040 --> 00:29:20.860 And sometimes we only get to plant the seed and never get to see the tree grow. 00:29:21.760 --> 00:29:26.260 And that is that is what we grieve. 00:29:27.840 --> 00:29:29.540 That is what we have to grieve. 00:29:30.660 --> 00:29:35.580 The the idea of of of of grieving the loss, you know, it's interesting. 00:29:35.700 --> 00:29:44.720 I've had, you know, and bluntly I'm seeing counselors do some of this and trying to to be healthy and to work through some of it all above board. 00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:50.600 And in the you know, the counselors, they talk to me about about the grieving process and doing some of that. 00:29:51.120 --> 00:29:54.140 A pastor friend of mine basically equated. 00:29:54.320 --> 00:29:55.280 I walk with a cane. 00:29:55.520 --> 00:29:56.600 I'm 46 years old. 00:29:57.540 --> 00:30:02.480 I told a doctor the other day, I was like, yeah, I've probably fallen five or six times in the past two months. 00:30:03.220 --> 00:30:04.240 And they looked at me. 00:30:04.280 --> 00:30:05.280 They were like, you're 46. 00:30:05.580 --> 00:30:06.400 You shouldn't be falling. 00:30:06.540 --> 00:30:09.900 And I was like, I know, you know, I'm not so bad that I got to press the button. 00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:12.300 That's that sense of signal that says I've fallen and I can't. 00:30:12.420 --> 00:30:15.420 Yeah, the metal, but, you know, yeah, whatever that is. 00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:15.540 Yeah. 00:30:15.580 --> 00:30:19.680 But it's still like that's that's what my body's evolved to. 00:30:20.320 --> 00:30:28.740 And my my my pastor friend locally here in Miami says to me, says, Jeff, the the the crutch is is the thorn in your side. 00:30:28.860 --> 00:30:30.040 That's that's it. 00:30:30.040 --> 00:30:32.240 Was it Saul that had the thorn if I'm if I remember correctly? 00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:32.840 Yeah. 00:30:32.840 --> 00:30:34.900 So it's it's it's Saul's Saul's thorn. 00:30:35.360 --> 00:30:41.060 And he says that's that's slowing you down to the speed that that God wants you. 00:30:42.060 --> 00:30:45.260 It's the limiter that's going to make sure that you're staying dependent upon him. 00:30:46.140 --> 00:31:06.880 And I mean, that once again, that that hurt at multiple levels, but it reinforces this idea of of the patience of waiting for things in God's time instead of feeling like we had to to force things into a place where we're trying to manufacture something that he wants to do when he's ready to do it. 00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:08.660 Not when we we best want it. 00:31:09.240 --> 00:31:21.960 Yeah, well, man, as people who study the Bible, we sometimes forget that there are thousands of years between pages and we know the end of the story and our life. 00:31:22.100 --> 00:31:23.440 We don't know the end of the story. 00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:35.060 And so we always want to skip that messy, painful middle part where we're forged, where we're changed, where we're molded, where we're broken, where we're healed. 00:31:35.720 --> 00:31:38.920 We want to skip that part and get to the cool part of the testimony. 00:31:39.240 --> 00:31:43.800 Like, I want to be the live fast drug addict that turns into the pastor. 00:31:44.180 --> 00:31:46.480 I don't want to have to go through withdraw. 00:31:47.220 --> 00:31:53.960 I don't want to have to answer for the people that I've hurt and the things that I've done because that part sucks. 00:31:54.260 --> 00:32:00.900 And a lot of churches, unfortunately, I feel like have an anemic theology of suffering. 00:32:01.840 --> 00:32:07.600 And so it's so easy in our theology of suffering to go, well, if I'm suffering, I did something wrong. 00:32:08.040 --> 00:32:17.240 Or if I'm suffering, I'm outside of God's will, where I say unfortunately because it sucks and I don't like it either. 00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:18.400 Nobody likes it. 00:32:19.100 --> 00:32:21.040 Suffering is just a part of human existence. 00:32:21.660 --> 00:32:34.160 And if your theology of suffering is, it turns into a kind of prosperity gospel for life of, well, if my life is going well, it must mean that I'm obedient to God. 00:32:34.740 --> 00:32:48.280 The counterpoint is if my if I'm struggling or I'm suffering, that must mean that I'm doing something wrong when, in fact, you might just be being faithful and the suffering doesn't have anything to do with your obedience. 00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:55.120 So how do we, I mean, just in response to that, we don't have an understanding of suffering. 00:32:55.300 --> 00:32:59.760 We're not, I mean, what I'm almost paraphrasing off this, but we're not grounded. 00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:08.080 We're flying off in other contexts that really aren't relating or struggling to relate with the people that we're trying to connect with. 00:33:09.300 --> 00:33:14.580 How do we as digital pastors, as ministers or even normal pastors, how do we stay grounded? 00:33:15.040 --> 00:33:17.140 How do we get reconnected? 00:33:17.140 --> 00:33:29.200 Is it possible, and even specifically digitally, is it possible to get disconnected, like too much in a digital space and therefore being isolated from the people we're trying to connect with? 00:33:29.580 --> 00:33:30.060 Absolutely. 00:33:30.600 --> 00:33:31.700 I mean, absolutely. 00:33:31.840 --> 00:33:44.720 I was just talking to a friend today about isolation and how we can have all these relationships but still feel isolated because the quantity of relationships can never replace the quality of intimacy. 00:33:45.980 --> 00:33:50.660 And digitally, it's kind of about quantity over quality generally. 00:33:51.300 --> 00:34:00.360 That's kind of what the tools kind of promote us to of like, we want as many likes, we want as many shares, we want as many engages, we want views, downloads. 00:34:00.360 --> 00:34:06.180 And those are kind of shallow metrics because they don't always speak to the deeper engagement. 00:34:06.180 --> 00:34:16.380 And so I think it's easy to be ungrounded online and have a strange perspective of where you're sitting in the world. 00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:23.780 And I think no matter what you're doing, whether you're doing just physical ministry or just digital ministry or some combination, 00:34:24.500 --> 00:34:35.100 the only way that I know to stay grounded in any significant way is to apply the same things that you're trying to teach about suffering and soul care and mental health to yourself. 00:34:36.120 --> 00:34:45.360 Because when you are applying these things to yourself, you're not likely to forget them for the people around you because it's part of your journey. 00:34:45.700 --> 00:34:51.580 And when you live it, people see it and they believe it and they go, oh, yeah. 00:34:52.060 --> 00:34:55.620 And so you can stand up and go, yeah, man, I'm afraid right now. 00:34:55.620 --> 00:35:05.200 And I've been running from God for a long time and he's been trying to tell me something and I haven't been listening. 00:35:05.860 --> 00:35:12.340 And you can say that because you're no longer a professional Christian that got hired because you're better than everybody else. 00:35:12.640 --> 00:35:20.480 You're just somebody who God called into whatever it is, whatever the space is, and you're alongside everybody. 00:35:21.480 --> 00:35:24.260 And so digitally, it's easy to fake it. 00:35:24.380 --> 00:35:29.660 It's easier than in real life because I'm the kind of person that picks up on your cues, right? 00:35:30.140 --> 00:35:36.520 And so if we're sitting in a coffee shop together, I'm like, okay, you say everything's fine, but, bro, there's something weird. 00:35:37.040 --> 00:35:38.720 Like, what's really going on? 00:35:39.140 --> 00:35:41.160 Digitally, you don't have that to the same degree. 00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:43.580 You could just have the same conversation over and over. 00:35:43.680 --> 00:35:46.820 Man, oh, it looks like so-and-so's thriving in life. 00:35:46.900 --> 00:35:52.140 And you see their family in their pictures because they went on three cruises last year and six trips to Disney World. 00:35:52.760 --> 00:35:57.960 And, you know, their business is blowing up and they're, you know, they're buying boats and houses. 00:35:58.420 --> 00:35:59.520 That's a little bit more. 00:35:59.960 --> 00:36:00.440 Yeah. 00:36:00.580 --> 00:36:13.620 It's the extreme example, but we can hide behind that in even really small church spaces of, well, this guy's got a podcast with a much bigger audience than I do, clearly, because of what I see digitally. 00:36:14.500 --> 00:36:21.220 This person is obviously doing well because of how they're teaching about Jesus, and it seems like it's fully aligned. 00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:35.340 And the temptation is not to be grounded in the reality of your own health because you, this is not, this is, I would say that it's God's law, but it's also just a physical law of the universe. 00:36:35.680 --> 00:36:38.280 You can't give what you don't have. 00:36:39.300 --> 00:36:46.040 And even in America, where we go into debt over everything, eventually the check is due. 00:36:47.100 --> 00:36:52.020 And so you can borrow, especially soul stuff. 00:36:52.080 --> 00:36:58.160 And I don't think we think of our soul like this, but like we can borrow against our soul to make progress. 00:36:58.600 --> 00:37:02.300 We can borrow against our soul to advance what we want to do. 00:37:02.680 --> 00:37:05.480 The problem is the payment always comes due. 00:37:06.620 --> 00:37:10.800 And that's why Jesus says, what does it profit a man to gain the world but lose his soul? 00:37:11.600 --> 00:37:13.860 You only lose your soul. 00:37:14.600 --> 00:37:18.100 The times I see it the most are things that people feel are worthy. 00:37:18.860 --> 00:37:20.120 People feel that are good. 00:37:20.220 --> 00:37:26.440 And how many church leaders, if you, I mean, look, man, I've been just talking about this and Andy will tell you. 00:37:26.860 --> 00:37:33.440 I'm watching this stuff go down in the SBC and I'm seeing people that I, I'm not involved. 00:37:33.560 --> 00:37:39.080 So I'm outside, but I've seen people that I've seen that have been well-respected, that have written things that are very good. 00:37:39.140 --> 00:37:40.060 I've read the books. 00:37:40.060 --> 00:37:42.360 I've seen their ministry results. 00:37:42.420 --> 00:37:43.460 I've seen all of this. 00:37:43.600 --> 00:37:51.240 But when you're protecting people that abuse children, you're borrowing against your soul and the payment will come due. 00:37:51.460 --> 00:37:55.060 Whether it's on this side of heaven or on the other side. 00:37:55.160 --> 00:37:58.700 At some point, you're going to have to talk to Jesus about it. 00:37:59.660 --> 00:38:02.980 And you're, I don't know what else to tell you. 00:38:03.040 --> 00:38:04.440 I've, Jesus spelled it out himself. 00:38:04.560 --> 00:38:05.300 That's not my words. 00:38:05.360 --> 00:38:06.480 Those are Jesus's words. 00:38:06.680 --> 00:38:13.220 And so for all of us, it's easy to kind of borrow against our soul, which is our current peace, our current joy. 00:38:13.360 --> 00:38:15.020 Think of the fruits of the spirit, right? 00:38:15.520 --> 00:38:23.140 Faithfulness, kindness, all of the things that we aspire to be, we can borrow against those things for success, to move ourselves forward. 00:38:23.340 --> 00:38:30.560 And so to stay grounded, you have to have a sense of boundaries of what you can do and what you can't do. 00:38:31.060 --> 00:38:33.260 Because you can't pour from an empty cup. 00:38:33.440 --> 00:38:34.720 You simply cannot. 00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:36.280 It's a law of the universe. 00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:41.900 And the only person that I know of that could feed 5,000 with two fishes and a loave is Jesus. 00:38:42.780 --> 00:38:44.620 All the boy did was bring his lunch. 00:38:45.180 --> 00:38:48.380 Jesus did the miraculous part in between. 00:38:48.900 --> 00:38:53.520 And so God might use you if you're empty, but that's up to him. 00:38:53.960 --> 00:38:56.800 Your responsibility is to care for yourself. 00:38:58.320 --> 00:38:58.840 Incredible. 00:38:59.380 --> 00:39:00.180 So good. 00:39:00.900 --> 00:39:04.100 If you're SBC, don't send me hate mail. 00:39:04.580 --> 00:39:11.220 You can send it to Bernie Mapili, Romans, R-O-M-A-N-S at thechurch.digital. 00:39:11.380 --> 00:39:12.140 That'll be great. 00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:13.960 No, I'm kidding. 00:39:13.960 --> 00:39:16.280 Actually, I am SBC, and he's not wrong. 00:39:17.680 --> 00:39:21.880 There's been some difficult things in that space, but I don't get into that too much. 00:39:23.320 --> 00:39:24.180 Let me ask. 00:39:24.600 --> 00:39:27.900 The best podcast I have heard so far this year. 00:39:27.960 --> 00:39:28.860 Now, we're one month in. 00:39:29.340 --> 00:39:29.740 Congratulations. 00:39:30.540 --> 00:39:32.300 Actually, I think you did the podcast in December. 00:39:32.960 --> 00:39:40.300 But it was you and Kyle Burkholder, I believe, talking about make the church local. 00:39:40.300 --> 00:39:47.260 And he's a very physical church-minded guy. 00:39:47.400 --> 00:39:49.420 He was a planter, as I recall. 00:39:49.800 --> 00:39:52.100 Yeah, he took over a church in Ohio. 00:39:52.420 --> 00:39:52.580 Yeah. 00:39:53.000 --> 00:39:53.220 Yeah. 00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:56.820 And so it was just this incredible, rich conversation. 00:39:57.220 --> 00:40:00.560 Why don't you maybe set up some of the highlights of what you guys covered in that? 00:40:00.760 --> 00:40:01.420 Yeah, man. 00:40:01.500 --> 00:40:05.420 Kyle is a friend from seminary, and I know him because he worked for a large church here. 00:40:05.880 --> 00:40:07.080 And I watched him. 00:40:07.500 --> 00:40:17.100 I won't say be radicalized, but I think he'd be okay if I said be radicalized, of just understanding what some of these larger church ministries maybe were doing. 00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:23.080 And so he moved to Ohio, is the pastor of a church there. 00:40:23.080 --> 00:40:28.180 Not the senior pastor, not the lead pastor, just the pastor of the church there. 00:40:28.260 --> 00:40:29.400 That's an important piece to him. 00:40:29.860 --> 00:40:42.580 And so what we talked about was how he, instead of focusing outwards to kind of build something larger, he really focused in on just the community, just the few square miles around his church and where he lives. 00:40:42.720 --> 00:40:59.920 And so his whole goal and his focus was really shrinking the ambition of the church, I guess you might say, to really just focus on the relationships around him and the people of what he's talking about. 00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:11.180 Because the thing that sticks with me, Jeff, and the whole thing made me mad and inspired at the same time, of just like, he's like, you can't pay attention to the news because that's stuff you can't do anything about. 00:41:11.560 --> 00:41:19.860 Meanwhile, your neighbor has a sick bird and your neighbor would love their pastor to come over and bless the bird and talk with them for a few minutes. 00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:22.860 And you could be getting really mad. 00:41:22.980 --> 00:41:24.140 And so I just did it, right? 00:41:24.180 --> 00:41:27.320 Let's just take me as an example, not as the hero, right? 00:41:27.380 --> 00:41:38.740 I railed about an SBC thing that I'm completely disconnected to, that there's very little that I can actually do to help the problem or really hurt the problem, honestly. 00:41:38.740 --> 00:41:49.380 I mean, I can care for people that talk about it, but there's so many layers of disconnection from that, that if I want to pastor well, I have to pastor the people around me. 00:41:49.380 --> 00:41:57.220 And so that was the conversation of his push to make church very hyperlocal, as local as you could possibly make it. 00:41:58.180 --> 00:42:13.800 And I love the idea of the church being hyperlocal, but at the same time, it's like digital does not have that hyperlocality, or at least you have to work very hard in the hyperlocality. 00:42:14.900 --> 00:42:19.920 And so the conversation was encouraging and frustrating. 00:42:20.100 --> 00:42:24.120 I found myself saying yes, and I found myself muttering curse words under my breath. 00:42:25.200 --> 00:42:27.340 Actually, I was down in the Florida Keys listening to it. 00:42:27.420 --> 00:42:28.340 I distinctly remember. 00:42:28.420 --> 00:42:29.400 And I was like, it's incredible. 00:42:29.860 --> 00:42:34.720 And it's frustrating because it's like we're 90% there, but not quite. 00:42:35.100 --> 00:42:36.800 And there's an application. 00:42:37.800 --> 00:42:38.940 I believe this. 00:42:38.940 --> 00:42:45.520 I believe there's an application of where the church can be hyperlocal digitally, and I'm not suggesting. 00:42:45.840 --> 00:42:54.560 And yeah, I mean, we can utilize geolocation to target whatever adds and build locations only in the two-mile radius around your physical church. 00:42:54.700 --> 00:42:58.200 Like we can, you know, the apartment building across the street from your church. 00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:01.240 Like we can, we can utilize technology for that. 00:43:01.240 --> 00:43:13.500 But larger than that, I think there's opportunities to dive into specific target audiences, demographic groups, characteristic groups. 00:43:13.580 --> 00:43:16.280 Like I remember there was a guy we were working with. 00:43:16.620 --> 00:43:18.680 Actually, I need to reach out to him and see what's going on. 00:43:19.180 --> 00:43:24.780 He was, he was, he was a, oh my gosh, I'm blanking on the country. 00:43:25.460 --> 00:43:28.340 He was a, uh, a refugee. 00:43:28.340 --> 00:43:31.160 This is, this is before, uh, Ukraine. 00:43:31.500 --> 00:43:36.340 I can't believe I'm going to blank on the country, but he was a refugee, uh, displaced. 00:43:36.340 --> 00:43:38.180 And he's currently a pastor in America. 00:43:38.600 --> 00:43:48.460 And, and he was interested in planting a digital expression of church that was reaching other refugees from his country globally. 00:43:48.980 --> 00:43:56.520 And like, that was the, the niche audience, the target audience that, that he was wanting to go after with his digital church. 00:43:56.520 --> 00:43:58.600 And he had, you know, elaborate plans. 00:43:58.600 --> 00:44:05.200 And he, he, he thought it was a way to connect people back to the cultural heritage of, of what they grew up in and use that to share Jesus. 00:44:05.200 --> 00:44:08.260 And I was like, man, this is an incredible plan. 00:44:08.500 --> 00:44:11.700 Some of the, the nerd culture ministry summit, some of what those guys are doing. 00:44:11.740 --> 00:44:20.660 And that's what you were talking about before with marble falls, but, you know, utilizing, you know, what they're doing, using gaming to reach nerds and, and to build a relationship. 00:44:20.660 --> 00:44:21.720 I can call them nerds. 00:44:21.760 --> 00:44:29.580 They call themselves nerds, but like, you know, reaching, using, um, the, the culture, uh, to really reach in and share with Jesus. 00:44:29.580 --> 00:44:35.260 Like, that's where I think, um, a lot of this hyperlocal comes into play digitally. 00:44:36.040 --> 00:44:44.580 The challenge is that the, the, you know, the U S church and I'll generalize here, they're not interested in target audiences and hyperlocation. 00:44:44.800 --> 00:44:54.140 They're interested in shotgun blasts and, and, and, and just casting seeds, wherever it may fall, realizing it's going to fall on some, it's once the quantity versus quality. 00:44:54.140 --> 00:45:12.740 Well, so I think I 100% agree with you that it doesn't seem that there has been, I'll say this, the event, the folks invested in the evangelical industrial complex that require five to 10% growth this year. 00:45:12.740 --> 00:45:18.700 So that in three years you can build the new building so that in 13 years, you can build the building after that. 00:45:18.700 --> 00:45:26.100 And all of the way that we've kind of done these mostly suburban churches, um, they're not interested in that. 00:45:26.560 --> 00:45:29.820 And it hasn't been about connection, whether it's digital or not digital. 00:45:30.340 --> 00:45:39.320 Uh, and so what you're talking about is the digital tools deepen our relationships with people qualitatively, even with people we know in person. 00:45:39.700 --> 00:45:45.180 I can text my son throughout the school day and you know, he's in sixth grade. 00:45:45.260 --> 00:45:48.680 So he got his first phone and we've only had one loss scare so far, Jeff. 00:45:48.780 --> 00:45:51.180 So, okay, we're doing okay. 00:45:51.500 --> 00:45:54.420 Um, but, but digital tools. 00:45:54.420 --> 00:45:59.720 And sometimes we overlook digital tools because digital has become synonymous with innovative. 00:46:00.640 --> 00:46:04.740 Um, sometimes, and I think we have digital tools that serve us all the time. 00:46:04.740 --> 00:46:15.560 And so these phones that allow us to text and take pictures and connect us in intimate moments with people that we love, that is not possible without digital. 00:46:16.080 --> 00:46:21.700 Like think of how many relationships we've deepened because of digital communication. 00:46:21.880 --> 00:46:25.780 How many times we've been able to talk to somebody where we couldn't talk to them before. 00:46:26.400 --> 00:46:34.580 Um, we're old enough to remember a world where if I said I was going to meet you at the mall and you weren't there, well, I'll figure out where you are tonight when I get home. 00:46:35.040 --> 00:46:36.880 Because I'm not calling you from the mall. 00:46:36.880 --> 00:46:43.860 It's just, if you're not at the fountain between two and two 15, then you're not showing up and that that's it instead of the text. 00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:44.040 Right. 00:46:44.080 --> 00:46:54.740 And so we're, we're a generation that remembers what it was like before and how these digital tools really help us connect more deeply with people and thing, even little things. 00:46:54.740 --> 00:46:59.760 Like, uh, I, I look at how easy it is to share podcasts and movie recommendations. 00:47:00.080 --> 00:47:11.500 They even have things on things like Disney plus where you can watch together when you're separated by a distance and it's not, it's technically extremely hard to do that. 00:47:11.500 --> 00:47:11.720 Right. 00:47:11.720 --> 00:47:19.760 To get things to sync up across the country or across the world so that you're watching something at the same time as somebody else. 00:47:20.380 --> 00:47:27.540 But that gives a depth and intimacy of relationship that wouldn't be possible without digital tools. 00:47:27.800 --> 00:47:38.080 Uh, the phone included like the, like the phone is a digital tool where you can talk to somebody, um, that you wouldn't have been able to talk to. 00:47:38.080 --> 00:47:50.220 And so I think the hyper locality of being able to text your neighbor because text in a way is informal, but text I found is like a glue is like a, a bond and a bonded. 00:47:50.220 --> 00:48:02.960 That's a, not a word, but a bonding agent between people of, I, I text before I really know you as a friend and you're kind of an acquaintance, but then we become friends and I text you a little bit differently. 00:48:02.960 --> 00:48:15.180 And then we become best friends and I text you totally differently, but it's a bonding agent that brings us together in all these different phases and don't underestimate that locally sending that text to your neighbor. 00:48:15.180 --> 00:48:32.820 And it's a way for, especially for people that don't feel seen or heard or cared for just a little reach out like that is a really simple way because I think the digital equation, Jeff is always half as cheap, uh, twice as small. 00:48:32.820 --> 00:48:51.820 Right. Isn't that like the eventually over time where it's like, we're going to make a memory, right? Uh, I, I, I, it was, I think it had to do with, uh, computer chips back in the day where it's like every five years, it's going to be half as big and, or yeah, it's going to be half as big and half as expensive. 00:48:51.820 --> 00:48:56.820 So it just keeps getting smaller. Half as cheap, twice as small. Yeah. I vaguely I've heard this before, but yeah. 00:48:56.820 --> 00:49:09.820 Something like that. There's this idea that it's all about efficiency and less cost. And it like, that's what digital has largely done is it scaled the world down a lot in regards to that. 00:49:09.820 --> 00:49:38.820 And while that can be soul crushing at times so that there are some things where it's like, you try to call customer service and it's like, I can't talk to a person that can do anything about this. I'm either talking to a machine or a call center somewhere else or an AI or whatever. And I feel less human, but it also works the other way of going. It's not as expensive. You don't have to form a long form letter to write to a friend. 00:49:38.820 --> 00:50:00.820 I want to do a whole podcast on this. We're going to bring John back into the conversation. I would love to maybe get Kyle Burkholder or somebody else, maybe, because I know this is a, this is a theme that, that John's hitting on his podcast as well, but we'd love to dig, dig into this and start to explore it. Cause I think we're really just starting to scratch, scratch the surface, man. 00:50:00.820 --> 00:50:13.240 And there were other things I wanted to get into. Like I wanted to get into, you did a, uh, you posted one of your sermons on your podcast feed talking about little T traumas and oh my gosh, that, that hit me at the right moment with the right message. 00:50:13.240 --> 00:50:28.880 And so God used that, that sermon on that podcast. I was driving Pinecrest, Florida down here in Miami when I heard that. And I literally pulled off the road to just process what I was hearing through that. And so that was really impactful. You'll have to, I'll put, we'll put a link into the show notes for that. 00:50:28.880 --> 00:50:56.900 I want to ask this question because I want to know John Powell's response to this question. And this may set up another conversation. Um, how do we get a generational church digitally? Because what you're describing is very relational. Um, and in one of the, in one of the options, and I'm talking digital only church, but I think it works for hybrid churches as well, is we see a lot of, um, relationships that are often one-on-one. 00:50:56.900 --> 00:51:24.400 So a man with a man, a woman with a woman, uh, that, that type of thing, disciple making relationships, um, or maybe kids are doing things with kids. Now there are physical generational churches where you've got grandparents, parents, and kids, you know, in the same worship service, in the same community. Um, I don't know that I've really seen, or maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know that I've seen that really happen in digital space yet. I would love your take. What are we missing? 00:51:24.840 --> 00:51:29.360 What do we need to do? Like if we got maybe five minutes, I'd love your take. 00:51:29.360 --> 00:51:47.960 Okay. My first thought is this is a little me machine. My, my iPhone, my phone is a little me machine. And so it is pushing us against generational churches because think about, okay, my, let's, I'll just take my family, my mom, myself, my wife, and my kids. 00:51:47.960 --> 00:52:04.960 When we go to the same church, we're all compromising something. We're all not necessarily getting our favorite thing in the whole world. So my mom may prefer hymns to rock music, or we may prefer, you know, a certain smaller set. 00:52:04.960 --> 00:52:15.120 Like every generation has certain worship and kind of preferences in terms of how they want to experience church. And then the younger kids want to experience in a certain way. And we try to do it in mega churches and all that. 00:52:15.360 --> 00:52:31.080 But our phones have just hyper, like focused on that of just like, it is a little me machine. All of my preferences are captured on this, all of my everything. And so I don't have to compromise in any way. 00:52:31.440 --> 00:52:48.320 And so I think the digital efficiency of, it's naturally going to lump us with people like us. It's, it's just naturally going to lump us with people like us because through all of our preference, we found it right through the algorithms, through all of this stuff. 00:52:48.320 --> 00:53:01.940 We found this digital church or through this relationship or through this Facebook ad or whatever. And so there's a lot of like to like it because so much of digital, and now I'm getting way beyond my own brain because I'm talking computer stuff. 00:53:02.040 --> 00:53:15.600 So much of digital stuff is matching a matches a so a goes there, B matches B. So B goes there, C matches C. So C goes there. So you're a 63 year old woman that's widowed living in San Antonio, Texas. 00:53:15.600 --> 00:53:24.640 These are the 10 things you're going to like. And you're a 13 year old boy who's going through middle school, who has searched a lot about Fortnite here, the 10 things you're going to like. 00:53:24.640 --> 00:53:37.760 And so you like you, you have these silos. And so a generational digital church is going to have to figure out how to break the silos of preference and come to one space together. 00:53:38.280 --> 00:53:52.200 And it's almost always a human choice. And so I am not good at some video games, but sometimes I play with my kids just so that I can be a part of that world. 00:53:52.920 --> 00:54:03.120 And so I am so bad at Fortnite, Jeff, but my eight year old and maybe look, I'm not saying you should let your eight year old play Fortnite, but he's got a 12 year old big brother that does. 00:54:03.340 --> 00:54:10.220 So here's where we are. We made choices. So I'm not I'm not judging you whether you let your kids or don't let your kids. 00:54:10.580 --> 00:54:17.960 And my eight year old's like, hey, let's play together. And he's on a switch and I'm on the Xbox and I'm terrible, terrible. 00:54:18.660 --> 00:54:23.520 And there are times that he's like, OK, dad, like maybe I kind of want to win now. 00:54:23.620 --> 00:54:30.280 So I'm going to play with brother. But then there are times when he just wants to play with me because we're playing together. 00:54:30.640 --> 00:54:34.820 And so I and I'm not like some big hero for that. 00:54:34.860 --> 00:54:39.520 It's just I think there's going to have to be some compromise when it comes to these things. 00:54:40.040 --> 00:54:47.840 And it comes to us kind of getting out of these silos of preference and coming together for a truly digital expression of church. 00:54:47.940 --> 00:54:55.660 Because think about social media platforms, Jeff, like a lot of young people are like, you know, I'm sure there's another social media that I don't even know about. 00:54:55.740 --> 00:54:58.580 They're like, you're not on Bleep Blorp. And I'm like, no. 00:54:58.660 --> 00:55:02.980 And they don't tell us about Bleep Blorp because they don't want old people on Bleep Blorp because we ruin TikTok. 00:55:03.200 --> 00:55:06.740 Right. Millennials ruin TikTok and boomers ruin Instagram. 00:55:07.260 --> 00:55:17.180 And so we have these like these age specific kind of platforms that something's going to have to come through and break through these silos of preference to create a generational church. 00:55:17.440 --> 00:55:19.360 There's it's it's the algorithm, right? 00:55:19.440 --> 00:55:25.180 I mean, the algorithm is trying to separate us with people that are just like us. 00:55:25.180 --> 00:55:33.140 And really healthy churches physically are not surrounded by people who look just like us. 00:55:33.280 --> 00:55:39.020 It's it's it's multicultural. It's multiracial. It's it's it's it's everything that's not. 00:55:39.240 --> 00:55:44.760 And so it's how do we how do we you know, we want the algorithm to work for us. 00:55:44.760 --> 00:55:48.000 But at the same time, we want to combat the algorithm. So we're not depending on it. 00:55:48.080 --> 00:55:51.760 Yeah. Well, my friend Mary Charlotte Elia said this on a podcast. 00:55:51.980 --> 00:55:56.120 Mary Charlotte Elia said this. She said the algorithm is not your friend. 00:55:56.120 --> 00:55:59.700 Oh, I like that. The algorithm is not your friend. 00:55:59.840 --> 00:56:09.420 And I think that's a good place to start as we're building digital churches and everything is the algorithm makes things easy, but it can really be how 9000 real quick. 00:56:10.480 --> 00:56:13.260 The algorithm is a tool. It's not your friend. 00:56:13.760 --> 00:56:16.240 That is so good right there. I tell you what, John. 00:56:17.040 --> 00:56:20.200 I mean, I've said it two or three times already in this podcast. We're going to do this again. 00:56:21.160 --> 00:56:25.620 I I miss my friend. And so would love to come on. 00:56:25.680 --> 00:56:28.980 We'll talk about hyper local. We'll talk about generational. 00:56:29.620 --> 00:56:31.920 We'll talk about a lot of this stuff. It's interesting. 00:56:32.040 --> 00:56:35.020 There's I mean, these are these are the theme. 00:56:35.140 --> 00:56:37.880 I didn't set out in 24 to kind of hit on these themes. 00:56:37.880 --> 00:56:42.960 But, you know, we've we've talked to target audience several times with this Barbara Carnero. 00:56:43.080 --> 00:56:45.900 We've had that conversation with her generational Barbara as well. 00:56:47.040 --> 00:56:50.640 Megan hit a lot on some of the mental health and soul care type of things. 00:56:50.640 --> 00:56:57.400 And so multiple themes hitting on that hyper local, I think is going to be a continued theme for for a season. 00:56:57.400 --> 00:57:05.720 And so, man, thanks for jumping on this podcast and and and sharing a little bit from the heart like you're so, so good at. 00:57:05.720 --> 00:57:08.800 But, hey, as we're as we're landing the plane here, any closing thoughts? 00:57:09.440 --> 00:57:12.220 Oh, man, it is so good to see you and I love your beard. 00:57:13.080 --> 00:57:17.060 It's good. You like even though we've never met, you're a figure in my life. 00:57:17.100 --> 00:57:25.120 You're El Jefe and my wife knows who you are, even though she's never met you and maybe has never seen you, has only heard your voice. 00:57:26.060 --> 00:57:28.260 But like it's so good to see you, man. 00:57:28.260 --> 00:57:35.640 So before I go, I'm going to try to book another time so that we could even if we don't podcast, even if we just chat, I would love that. 00:57:36.340 --> 00:57:40.360 Yeah, let's let's do that. Let's let's let's just get together and chew the fat. 00:57:40.560 --> 00:57:49.840 So down here in Miami and this this goes to the state of my my my mental status in ministry. 00:57:50.340 --> 00:57:55.680 OK, by the way, today I have lost 90 pounds since I quit ministry. 00:57:55.940 --> 00:58:00.780 Yeah. So we talk about, you know, I'm a physical, I'm a train wreck. 00:58:00.780 --> 00:58:04.480 But but emotionally, I'm in a much better place. 00:58:04.480 --> 00:58:05.600 And this is not I do. It's funny. 00:58:05.600 --> 00:58:10.500 I saw one of my employees this morning at Starbucks and I was like, that's not to rip the church. 00:58:11.300 --> 00:58:13.320 It's it's my mental status. 00:58:13.320 --> 00:58:19.740 When I was working there, I couldn't I couldn't handle what what was what was happening. 00:58:19.740 --> 00:58:21.360 And that's not ripping the situation. 00:58:21.360 --> 00:58:25.260 It's ripping me because I was I was the wrong fit for what they needed. 00:58:25.260 --> 00:58:26.560 But it was interesting. 00:58:26.560 --> 00:58:31.200 My nickname, my name is Jeffrey Dale Reed, R-E-E-D. 00:58:31.200 --> 00:58:38.740 And but my my nickname there was El Jefe Dale, which is is basically the equivalent in Spanish. 00:58:38.740 --> 00:58:43.080 We're in Miami of the boss saying, you know, do it, do it now with urgency. 00:58:43.440 --> 00:58:46.380 And so like that was basically was was the status. 00:58:46.380 --> 00:58:50.260 My nickname was basically the guy walking around yelling at everybody to get the crap done. 00:58:50.520 --> 00:58:57.840 And it's like, well, no wonder I was like 100 pounds overweight and, you know, not liked by anybody and like cussed out. 00:58:57.840 --> 00:58:59.740 But, you know, by people, you know, under their breath. 00:58:59.740 --> 00:59:01.320 And it's like, hey, you know what? 00:59:01.340 --> 00:59:04.580 I was not the right guy for for the season there. 00:59:05.040 --> 00:59:08.640 But God, you know, even it's interesting, even going back to the opening question, 00:59:08.640 --> 00:59:12.680 about disappointment that season of my life. 00:59:12.680 --> 00:59:16.600 This is, you know, early 2010s, 20th, mid 2010s. 00:59:17.700 --> 00:59:20.580 There was a lot of disappointment centered around that. 00:59:21.840 --> 00:59:30.900 If I knew now how God was going to use me to help guys like John, who I've never even 00:59:30.900 --> 00:59:38.440 breathed the same air molecules with, I would realize that my faith was very small and that 00:59:38.440 --> 00:59:43.200 God has a bigger plans than what stupid thing I think he's calling me to do. 00:59:44.200 --> 00:59:47.800 And so I appreciate the journey that he's calling me on. 00:59:47.880 --> 00:59:51.180 And John, I appreciate the journey of walking this with you. 00:59:51.640 --> 00:59:52.900 But hey, we're going to land the plane. 00:59:53.600 --> 00:59:57.320 So for John, this is Jeff with The Church Digital. 00:59:58.120 --> 00:59:59.660 Thanks for jumping on the podcast here. 00:59:59.700 --> 01:00:00.680 We'll see you next time on the show. 01:00:00.980 --> 01:00:01.520 Y'all have a good day. 01:00:01.520 --> 01:00:02.520 Bye. 01:00:02.520 --> 01:00:02.520 Bye. 01:00:02.520 --> 01:00:02.520 Bye.