WEBVTT

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 There's a cause that Jesus came for and, you know, my understanding is it's multiplying

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 disciples and churches to the glory of God from where we are to the ends of the earth,

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 every people, every place.

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 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

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 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church.

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 But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

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 Is disciple making possible digitally?

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 How should we approach the digital mission field?

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 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space?

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 Oh, and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this?

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 Whether you're a big or small church, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours

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 learn to be a multiplying church digitally and physically.

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 And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

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 All right.

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 Hey, everybody.

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 Episode 299, 299 of the Church Digital Podcast.

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 We are one podcast away, one episode away from 300.

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 You're going to do something special for 300?

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 I have.

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 And that's what I was about to say.

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 Jason Morris is cutting me off like midstream.

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 So it's six weeks until episode 300 actually airs.

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 And as I sit in this chair, Steve Addison's coming on here.

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 In a second, I'm literally, I'm like, Steve freaking Addison, you know, one of the modern architects

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 of movement is my guest for 299.

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 What am I going to do for 300?

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 Like I kind of painted myself in the corner.

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 Wow.

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 What am I going to do to make 300 more epic than what 299 is going to be?

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 Thank you very much, Jason, for calling attention to that in this moment.

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 So we're excited to have Steve Addison literally from another continent.

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 Church Digital Podcast brought to you by Riverside once again, which by the way, the beauty of

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 Riverside, I am, I am looking at Steve Addison in Australia and I am getting 1080 video coming

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 to me and recording and the podcast and like everything's going to be epic and it's going

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 to be flawless, even though this dude's literally on another day.

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 We're recording this on a Wednesday night and it's, what is Thursday morning?

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 Steve Addison, what does Thursday morning look like for you right now?

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 It looks beautiful.

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 We're, we're coming into autumn in Australia and I can tell you that the world has not

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 ended, um, that you've, that Thursday has come.

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 Awesome.

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 That, that's good to know.

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 You will make it to Thursday and so Friday is not promised people, but Thursday, Steve

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 Addison, Australia, uh, says it's okay.

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 That's why we're, we're in Australia.

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 We just want to be the first when the Lord comes back because he'll pass over, he'll pass

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 over New Zealand for sure.

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 We'll be resurrected.

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 Awesome.

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 Our friends in New Zealand, I want to publicly apologize.

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 Any hate mail, go ahead and send it to Jason, J-A-S-O-N at thechurch.digital.

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 He can take care of that for you.

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 No, I, I, I'm going to open confession hour here.

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 Uh, so Steve's on, we're going to talk about, um, uh, movement and, uh, he recently came

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 out with a book, Acts and the Movement of God.

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 I just happened to have a copy right here, which happens to be signed by said Steve Addison.

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 Very, very proud of this.

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 Um, met Steve, um, was at a E3, no place left event here in Florida, West Palm and, uh, happened

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 to meet Steve there.

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 And it was, um, and we're just talking offline, both Jason and I reflecting back on like Steve's

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 books and his writing on movement and, and how that was very influential in, in our, in

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 our lives.

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 Um, you know, it, for myself, really, it was reading pioneering movements.

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 That, that was, that was the book.

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 I, there were two or three that I was, um, flipping through.

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 Um, it was honestly, it was like a decade ago and I, uh, my memory's bad.

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 Um, but, um, it was pioneering movements was the one that was just cover to cover, just

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 ripping through it.

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 And, um, and it's just so good for, and honestly, for me, as I was, um, it caused me to question

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 things and it really started to, to validate some of the questions.

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 Like, uh, we had Leonard Sweet on to do the podcast a while back and Leonard Sweet was the,

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 was the podcast that it was like, okay, Leonard Sweet thinks the way that I think like Leonard

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 Sweet validated all the craziness that was in my thoughts.

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 Cause, cause he, he was doing it.

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 Uh, the church 2.0 guy.

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 Oh my gosh, I'm blanking on his name.

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 Um, Jason.

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 Neil Cole, we had Neil Cole on and, and Neil Cole and, and you, Steve, like both of you

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 kind of, kind of shot for shot were, uh, so your book, Steve was handed to me by a pastor.

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 Neil Cole's book was a book that I found on my own.

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 Um, but, but the two of those really started to get me down this road of questioning what

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 I thought was, was correct, normal.

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 Um, you know, a 15 years church staffing, not, not apologetic on that.

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 Um, you know, I had been discipled in my life and then I, I went and worked on a church

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 staff and threw everything out the window and forgot everything that I'd learned in the

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 years previous to that.

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 And so now, uh, to be honest, you know, talking about movement and working with the church digital

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 and pioneering these movements that, that we're, we're, we're working with, um, man,

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 your book becomes more and more, more and more prevalent, more and more necessary.

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 And I'm going to be honest.

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 This is what I wanted to open up with.

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 This is probably the most you're going to hear me talk in this podcast, um, because we

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 got Jason Morris in, in the conversation.

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 Jason, uh, is, uh, very, uh, versed in this area.

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 And even just some of the pre-conversations, I know he's excited to get into this.

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 I'm kind of poking, I'm making fun of him here a little bit.

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 It's my podcast.

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 I can do that.

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 Um, but, uh, the, the heart of the heart of this thing is we're really looking forward

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 to this conversation and, and digging in.

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 Um, and Jason, why don't my, man, why don't, do you want to share a little bit of maybe how,

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 uh, Steve's influenced you kind of historically?

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 Oh yeah.

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 Big time, you know, listening to the podcast and reading the book.

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 The, the next one was rise of movements, which I honestly, after reading that book, I thought

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 that that was going to be your magnum opus by the way that it was structured.

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 Because it was, uh, it gave such a wonderful overview of the life cycle that I feel like

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 was so helpful for people to understand, oh, I'm in this certain phase of the life cycle.

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 And if I just go business as usual, I will hit the decay and decline if I don't watch it.

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 Um, and then my favorite part of the book though, because there's a lot of structural

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 talk, um, um, was the appendix.

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 Not very many books I could say that about, but the appendix was awesome.

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 Um, and we actually ended up using a lot of those ideas from the appendix in the church

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 planning movements that we did all around the world and got me connected to the types of

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 ideas you were talking about.

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 So it was interesting how the book had very high, the rise and fall of movements.

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 I got a high level view through the book and then a more nuts and bolts practical idea of

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 how it could get expressed in the appendix.

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 And I thought, this is it, you know, what else do you need to write?

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 But apparently, apparently there was something else, right?

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 And I mean, I'm just curious, um, how did you get from rise and fall of movements to acts?

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 What was the journey that got you there?

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 Just out of curiosity, we can get to the other questions we have, but he's already taken over

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 my podcast.

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 We are not even on question one yet.

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 That's awesome.

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 I just love, go ahead, please.

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 How'd you get to, uh, from rise and fall, uh, to, uh, tax?

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 Well, rise and fall was written pretty much, uh, 20, 25 years ago, but it, it was the second

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 half of my first book.

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 Um, you know, we, we did the characteristics of dynamic movements and then we said, well,

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 let's show you the life cycle.

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 And then I realized that this was actually two books.

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 Um, and so it, it sat there on my computer drive for about 20 years and what it was waiting

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 for was, you know, we can learn a lot from organizational life cycles, right?

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 But this is the movement of God, it's not some organization, you know, um, so it was the

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 realization that's what's driving the rise and fall is the degree to which we move towards

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 or away from the life and ministry of Jesus as, especially as it's expressed in the gospel

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 and, and, and, and acts because acts that, so that automatically leads you to acts because,

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 um, and, and this was a big, another big aha moment was realizing that Luke wrote acts because

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 the story wasn't finished.

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 So the story about Jesus continues, you know, this is not just some history of the early

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 church.

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 This is what Jesus continues to do.

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 Once, once he's won his victory and he's ascended, well, he, he sends a spirit.

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 He, you know, confronts Paul on the Damascus road, you know, the risen Lord is still leading

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 the way.

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 So the patterns in the book of acts are not, are not just, gee, didn't they, weren't these

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 guys smart, you know, well, they weren't, they, they were defeated.

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 They were, you know, even, even 10 years down the track, Peter, Peter is clueless at Cornelius's

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 house.

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 This is not some brainstorming thing from the apostles.

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 Um, the Lord's still in charge.

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 And, and so here we go.

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 We look at the rise and fall throughout the scriptures and history and the principles, but, ah, well,

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 that means we, this is the story of, of the rise of a movement here in the book of acts.

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 Um, and the wonderful thing, once you've got the paradigm of the life cycle is you realize

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 even Peter is going through that, even the church of Jerusalem, which is like heaven on

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 earth.

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 It's 10 years since the commission was given.

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 They've gone off, they've filled Jerusalem, uh, with the knowledge of Jesus.

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 There's, there's, there's movements throughout Galilee and Samaria and Judea and Jerusalem,

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 but they still haven't intentionally gone after the, um, the Gentiles.

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 You know, the mission is, they're in danger, you know, where they're at the peak of their

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 success.

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 And now they're in danger of falling off the cliff, even in the midst of, Hey, we have a

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 mega church or whatever, you know, and Peter, I'll be the senior pastor of the mega church.

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 Well, no, he's out on the fringes, um, where God gets ahold of him and says, Hey, there's

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 a whole new life cycle here.

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 Um, and it's bringing Peter and, and that church in Jerusalem back to the life and ministry of

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 Jesus.

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 Um, so seeing that, you know, these, these patterns, I mean, we can draw a life cycle.

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 That's just one way of communicating it.

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 What we've got to go to is the actual story of the book of Acts.

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 And, and the, the big aha moment is, uh, God, father, son, and Holy spirit is the main character

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 in this book.

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 Therefore, the patterns, the lessons that not, not the finer detail.

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 It's not like, well, we better just walk around on foot.

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 We can't use motor cars.

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 And when we travel long distances, it's got to be ship, you know, that's, that's silly

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 stuff, you know, but the sort of patterns we see, this is what, um, this is what God does

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 in history and what he's still doing today.

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 So we better, we better not build a wall of separation between our, our life and ministry

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 and that book of Acts and just say, well, that's them back there.

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 Well, we know better now.

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 I tell you what, that's, that's a really beautiful picture.

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 Um, even backing up a little bit, getting to Peter, describing, you know, Peter out there

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 on the fringe, um, because we're dealing with the church digital.

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 We're dealing with a bunch of square pegs that don't fit in the round holes.

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 Um, you know, I, it's funny, I, and even Steve, I think I told you that the joke that

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 we often call ourselves the, you know, basically the Island of Misfit Toys, um, because that's,

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 that's this weird oddball collection of, of, of, of who we are.

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 Um, you know, I was funny.

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 I was, I was recently told it, told it like, this is new since, since I, I met you, Steve.

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 Uh, but I was, I was told a story recently of, of a guy, uh, in a, in a Eastern,

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 in a, in a European country.

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 I'm not going to say what country, you know, I don't want to, I don't want to out the guy

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 without publicly knowing I can share the story, but, um, he, he, he came into the, our discord

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 community on the church digital, uh, did discord.thechurch.digital, by the way, open a web browser.

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 Uh, but what he, what he did was he started meeting us and ended up booking time with me and

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 I'm looking at him face to face and he's telling me a story and he has this passion to, to plant

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 a, he loves relational disciple making.

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 Um, he's got, I don't know that he's, he's, has depth defined movement in him, um, but he's

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 understanding some of the basic principles of movement.

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 And, um, and what he wants to do, he has this crazy idea of doing a microchurch model, but

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 digital.

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 And so he's really wanting to start to explore this digital microchurch.

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 Now, you know, in, in my world, there's half a dozen people that are having that same exploration,

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 but outside of the Island of Misfit Toys and the fringe people, um, well, um, you know, he

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 was told that idea to his church and, uh, his, his European church basically started laughing

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 at him and mocking him and making fun of, of, of what it was.

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 And, and dude went to discord to find, or excuse me, went to Google to start to find resources

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 and community for encouragement.

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 And that's when he stumbled upon us and we brought him in and working with them and, and, and,

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 and building relationships and helping them on the journey.

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 That's, that's one story.

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 Uh, but to be honest, that's the, that's the paradigm.

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 Like that's the, I can tell that story to you 25 times.

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 And so this, this idea of, Hey, there's this guy that's, that's on the, that's, that should

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 be doing the mega church thing, but he's disconcerted enough to not be in the building

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 and, and he's disenfranchised walking around.

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 He's dealing with the fringe stuff and dealing with the fringes where God like slaps him on

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 the head.

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 Um, dang, like that, that preach to me, I haven't even gotten to question one yet, but man, I'm

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 ready to wrap this thing up and call it done.

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 Uh, that was beautiful.

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 Um, all right.

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 So, Hey, look, let's, let's, let's, let me put some.

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 Boundaries on the, on this conversation.

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 Um, you know, Steve, I sat around with you and, and scuba, Steve, uh, Steve, uh, Carswell

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 here in Florida and some other guys in West Palm beach.

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 And we're, and we're talking like at, uh, master level masterclass movement, like college

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 master's degree, doctorate, like advanced level stuff.

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 And, um, we're the, the, the, the people probably listen to this podcast are probably a little

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 more, uh, one-on-one two-on-one intro level.

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 We're new in this thing.

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 And so, you know, for some of my questions, if you're listening, it's like, oh my gosh,

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 Jeff got Steve Addison.

00:16:04.940 --> 00:16:05.520
 What's that like?

00:16:05.540 --> 00:16:07.400
 What's going to be the answer to life that Steve's adding and share?

00:16:07.580 --> 00:16:09.120
 I don't know that that's going to come.

00:16:09.320 --> 00:16:10.300
 Maybe, maybe it does.

00:16:10.440 --> 00:16:12.180
 Uh, maybe this is going to be a little rudimentary.

00:16:12.640 --> 00:16:16.640
 Uh, because my first question is, well, Steve, like help us define here.

00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:18.540
 What exactly is a movement?

00:16:18.540 --> 00:16:23.740
 And, you know, maybe your world will get rocked by this answer, but, um, hold on and let's

00:16:23.740 --> 00:16:24.180
 find out.

00:16:24.280 --> 00:16:28.340
 So Steve, question number one, uh, what exactly is a movement?

00:16:28.460 --> 00:16:29.420
 How do you define a movement?

00:16:30.500 --> 00:16:37.660
 Well, in its simplest form, a movement is a group of people committed to a common cause.

00:16:38.660 --> 00:16:46.800
 Uh, so the fact that it's a movement doesn't say whether or not that cause is right or wrong,

00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:53.700
 whether they're good or bad or mix, but whenever, and when we say commitment, I don't mean they've

00:16:53.700 --> 00:16:57.940
 signed up some membership, but they're pursuing that cause together.

00:16:58.860 --> 00:17:02.260
 Um, and so the, that's the engine room of history.

00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:08.080
 Uh, you know, we can all think of the movements that have influenced us, uh,

00:17:08.280 --> 00:17:12.760
 throughout our lives and development or shape the world we're in.

00:17:12.760 --> 00:17:19.180
 We can know how sadly, you know, there's a couple of movements going, you know, hammer and

00:17:19.180 --> 00:17:24.900
 tong head, head to head in the Middle East at the moment and other parts of the world, you

00:17:24.900 --> 00:17:32.780
 know, in, in, uh, around China and Taiwan, their movements, um, uh, that, uh, pursuing rightly

00:17:32.780 --> 00:17:35.200
 or wronging what they're committed to together.

00:17:35.900 --> 00:17:41.020
 Uh, when, when, when we think of, um, well, what did Jesus come to do?

00:17:41.380 --> 00:17:44.460
 Uh, cause it's a neutral concept, a movement.

00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:51.120
 Um, you could be nuns or you could be fascist, you know, um, but you're both a movement.

00:17:51.380 --> 00:17:56.360
 There's, there's, there's a cause that Jesus came for.

00:17:56.360 --> 00:18:03.000
 And, um, you know, my, my understanding is it's, it's multiplying disciples and churches

00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:09.360
 to the glory of God from where we are to the ends of the earth, every people, every place,

00:18:09.360 --> 00:18:17.900
 uh, that just in a short, um, sort of, we may not get into the detail of that, but we do need

00:18:17.900 --> 00:18:23.400
 to, and that's why I wrote a whole book, what Jesus started, you know, so what did he come

00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:23.880
 to do?

00:18:23.940 --> 00:18:29.340
 And then what does the risen Lord continue to do, um, throughout the book of Acts?

00:18:29.380 --> 00:18:30.420
 And we've seen the epistles.

00:18:31.580 --> 00:18:35.620
 So you've got to define what's our cause, what's the outcome.

00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:43.000
 And then you're a movement if you're committed to that, if you've set up organizations to serve

00:18:43.000 --> 00:18:49.260
 and facilitate that, but they're now living for themselves to perpetuate themselves rather

00:18:49.260 --> 00:18:50.220
 than the cause.

00:18:50.360 --> 00:18:54.580
 Well, that's an institution, a movement that's become institutionalized.

00:18:55.220 --> 00:19:02.000
 And the way you renew, if it's possible, that institution is you get back to the cause.

00:19:02.180 --> 00:19:08.320
 You, you get back to, um, the founding, you know, dream and vision.

00:19:08.780 --> 00:19:11.760
 That's, so you've got to go back before you can go forward.

00:19:12.820 --> 00:19:13.340
 Wow.

00:19:14.080 --> 00:19:15.780
 Um, so good.

00:19:15.780 --> 00:19:22.620
 Now, what you're describing in context of, of movement, um, like, I'm going to be honest,

00:19:22.620 --> 00:19:26.320
 like even, even the first story, you're, you're talking about how Peter should be in, in the,

00:19:26.320 --> 00:19:27.060
 the mega church.

00:19:27.060 --> 00:19:29.260
 And instead he's, he's out on the, on the fringe.

00:19:29.620 --> 00:19:33.540
 Like, I know a lot of pastors that want their mega churches.

00:19:33.540 --> 00:19:39.280
 And so honestly, what you're describing with movement, and oftentimes it does feel counter

00:19:39.280 --> 00:19:43.660
 cultural to, to what the, at least in, I don't, I don't really know the Australian church,

00:19:43.660 --> 00:19:45.660
 at least what I see in, in, in the United States.

00:19:46.060 --> 00:19:50.340
 And so like specifically or generically, how are you going to answer this?

00:19:50.420 --> 00:19:54.980
 How are movements different than the established church?

00:19:55.380 --> 00:19:59.220
 Well, even the established church are the fruit of movements.

00:19:59.800 --> 00:20:03.620
 Um, this is why I think we've got to get back before we can move forward.

00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:05.260
 Get back to your history there.

00:20:05.360 --> 00:20:11.980
 I've, I know, I've read the history of the explosion of the Baptists and the Methodists,

00:20:12.300 --> 00:20:17.540
 uh, sort of a funny idea, exploding Baptists and Methodists, but there they are on the U.S.

00:20:17.620 --> 00:20:24.500
 frontier and their movements, um, you know, uh, the, the, the more established, the Episcopalians

00:20:24.500 --> 00:20:31.440
 and for a long time, the Presbyterians, Congregationalists, they, they, they've all got their multiple degrees,

00:20:31.820 --> 00:20:36.800
 guaranteed salaries and congregations, and they're on, on, you know, on the, the East Coast.

00:20:37.240 --> 00:21:00.200
 But the reason why those movements of Methodists and Baptists just took off for, you know, decades until they settled down, um, was they got back to some of the, the basic practices that Jesus modeled and, and demonstrate that this is a grassroots movement.

00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:15.080
 This is a, people committed to a cause, making progress, um, you know, and it, it went exponential for, for a couple of generations, um, and, uh, before they, they settled down.

00:21:15.080 --> 00:21:24.820
 But, so it's good to remember that, that typically, you know, even the Pentecostal churches, it, it began in a barn in Azusa Street.

00:21:24.820 --> 00:21:29.700
 It had been a Methodist meeting place, but it'd been used as a, a horse stables.

00:21:29.700 --> 00:21:39.400
 And there you've got the, the son of freed slaves, one-eyed black preacher, William Seymour, with a vision for a movement of God.

00:21:40.320 --> 00:21:51.340
 Um, so great institutions, not just mega churches, but universities and, and, and, and the like, hospitals, all good stuff comes out of that.

00:21:51.340 --> 00:21:55.080
 At the same time, it's a, we call it the institutional dilemma.

00:21:55.600 --> 00:22:02.280
 You know, you've got to build some structure around what God's doing in order to facilitate it.

00:22:02.700 --> 00:22:09.600
 Um, but eventually it, they suffer from the failure of success.

00:22:10.260 --> 00:22:18.700
 And now we need to protect the institution because way back then we risked everything for a better future.

00:22:18.700 --> 00:22:22.000
 And the vision that we had, now we've achieved it.

00:22:22.560 --> 00:22:24.420
 So we better not mess this up.

00:22:24.420 --> 00:22:27.300
 We better maintain our position in the culture.

00:22:28.080 --> 00:22:35.080
 Uh, we better make sure our universities and hospitals are well run and our, our seminaries and the like.

00:22:35.560 --> 00:22:39.500
 And meanwhile, God's doing something new on the fringe.

00:22:40.140 --> 00:22:48.380
 Um, and, uh, wherever, wherever we see multiplying movements today, they're not necessarily well-educated.

00:22:48.700 --> 00:22:49.820
 They're not necessarily well-educated, wealthy people.

00:22:50.620 --> 00:22:56.160
 Um, they're men and women of passionate faith and a biblical faith.

00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:08.580
 Um, and, uh, they're, they're, you know, blazing a trail, whether it's in, in Africa or India, um, China, these places.

00:23:09.300 --> 00:23:10.720
 Uh, God is on the move.

00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:20.560
 To your, to your point, um, where, for whatever reason, we used to see movement, because I love the way that you're framing it.

00:23:20.560 --> 00:23:31.480
 We used to see movement in the developed world, in the Western world, in ways that we don't see movement in the Western world today.

00:23:31.480 --> 00:23:37.660
 But rather, we're seeing it in other places, like Africa, like Asia.

00:23:38.380 --> 00:23:41.800
 Um, that's where the movement is happening internationally.

00:23:43.160 --> 00:23:45.040
 Two questions on that.

00:23:45.580 --> 00:23:47.160
 Why do you think that is?

00:23:48.180 --> 00:24:04.780
 Um, and secondly, what could the Western church that has been institutionalized from a previous movement, how, what's the easiest path to recapture that momentum?

00:24:05.020 --> 00:24:18.980
 Um, so that, because today, um, as good as the institutions are, from the movement that happened in years gone by, today, we're not keeping up with our own population group.

00:24:19.540 --> 00:24:23.660
 So we're losing ground overall, while internationally.

00:24:23.660 --> 00:24:25.840
 We're losing our children and grandchildren.

00:24:26.520 --> 00:24:27.560
 That's what we're doing.

00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:34.460
 We're not even retaining, um, you know, unless you're, I think you should be doing pretty well, um, doing that.

00:24:35.020 --> 00:24:38.440
 But, um, here's the wonderful thing.

00:24:38.500 --> 00:24:39.940
 It is incredibly simple.

00:24:41.060 --> 00:24:46.240
 Um, it's as simple as saying, you know, what should I do?

00:24:46.300 --> 00:24:47.340
 Well, go for a walk.

00:24:49.880 --> 00:24:50.840
 Go for a walk.

00:24:51.400 --> 00:24:52.220
 Meet some people.

00:24:52.900 --> 00:24:53.680
 Pray as you go.

00:24:53.820 --> 00:24:56.000
 Lord, lead me to prepared hearts.

00:24:56.080 --> 00:24:59.740
 Go for a walk around your neighborhood, down the street, next door neighbors.

00:25:00.760 --> 00:25:02.980
 And it's as complicated as this.

00:25:02.980 --> 00:25:07.060
 Just ask someone, you know, or someone you've met for the first time.

00:25:07.780 --> 00:25:10.020
 Hey, I'm just out walking and praying.

00:25:10.760 --> 00:25:12.640
 Is there anything I can pray for you?

00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:15.160
 And just see what happens.

00:25:15.280 --> 00:25:16.960
 You know, what did Jesus do?

00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:20.780
 You know, he, he does engage the institution.

00:25:21.100 --> 00:25:28.420
 There's, there's a tension there, but he's not trying to reinvent it structurally and institutionally.

00:25:28.420 --> 00:25:30.520
 And let's get inside this thing.

00:25:30.820 --> 00:25:32.280
 So what does Jesus do?

00:25:33.140 --> 00:25:36.840
 He calls historic Israel to join.

00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:43.060
 They don't, and they can still identify as where, this is our background, but to join what he's doing.

00:25:43.140 --> 00:25:44.060
 And how does he do that?

00:25:44.140 --> 00:25:52.180
 Well, he finds a couple of, you know, young guys and, and, and, and also women at times travel in the group.

00:25:52.180 --> 00:25:55.380
 And he just said, I'll tell you what, here's the deal.

00:25:55.700 --> 00:25:56.840
 All right, come follow me.

00:25:57.560 --> 00:25:59.560
 So everything that that entails.

00:25:59.780 --> 00:26:00.140
 Okay.

00:26:00.260 --> 00:26:01.320
 Well, let's keep it simple.

00:26:01.820 --> 00:26:04.800
 And what I'll do for you is I'll teach you how to fish for people.

00:26:06.580 --> 00:26:10.980
 And that's what a movement does, follows Jesus and it fishes for people.

00:26:11.140 --> 00:26:13.340
 We've forgotten, we've neglected that.

00:26:14.380 --> 00:26:16.540
 And, you know, it really is.

00:26:16.600 --> 00:26:21.560
 I mean, just looking outside my window right now, around the corner, there's a great church.

00:26:22.260 --> 00:26:23.720
 And I know the pastor.

00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:32.020
 He got all stirred up and he just said, Steve, why don't we go out visiting the thousand homes around our church,

00:26:32.580 --> 00:26:37.700
 offering to pray, sharing the gospel, inviting people to read the Bible.

00:26:38.660 --> 00:26:41.020
 So now that's, and people say, oh, that's door knocking.

00:26:41.120 --> 00:26:41.760
 That won't work.

00:26:41.860 --> 00:26:47.260
 Well, you always know when, when something's about to come in vogue, when everybody else says it doesn't work.

00:26:47.620 --> 00:26:49.000
 It's because they haven't done it.

00:26:49.700 --> 00:26:51.520
 Jason, we're, we're weeks away, man.

00:26:51.580 --> 00:26:52.560
 It's, it's going to happen.

00:26:53.760 --> 00:26:55.840
 But it's not just for that.

00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:58.680
 And it is a minority of people who are ready to do that.

00:26:59.040 --> 00:27:00.500
 There's more people than you realize.

00:27:01.360 --> 00:27:05.720
 But you also train everybody in the life of the church who wants to learn.

00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:12.760
 So next time you're talking to one of your kids who's far from God and, and you know, you can't preach.

00:27:12.840 --> 00:27:14.720
 They've heard the gospel enough from you.

00:27:15.980 --> 00:27:22.900
 And you ask them at a key moment in their life, you know, a new birth or a struggle or a tension.

00:27:22.900 --> 00:27:27.840
 And you just say to someone you've known your whole life, can I pray for that right now?

00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:42.280
 You watch what happens, you know, put aside all and, but you've also got to train people, not just to, we call that the early offer of prayer, because it's always earlier than you think you should do it.

00:27:44.520 --> 00:27:48.860
 But also, well, what happens if I encounter someone who's responsive?

00:27:48.860 --> 00:27:51.540
 Well, I'll do what Jesus did.

00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:52.880
 What did he do?

00:27:52.980 --> 00:27:53.840
 He tells them a story.

00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:57.280
 He teaches them some content.

00:27:57.960 --> 00:28:02.040
 And he calls for someone to learn to follow him and fish for others.

00:28:02.220 --> 00:28:12.080
 So that's happening throughout the whole sort of ethos of any movement, you know, and so there are movements on American soil.

00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:14.980
 It's just, you're going to have to go to prison to find them.

00:28:16.500 --> 00:28:17.920
 Texas prison system.

00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:22.940
 There are hundreds of groups forming that function as churches.

00:28:23.140 --> 00:28:24.700
 They can't officially be called a church.

00:28:25.540 --> 00:28:29.360
 It's being led and spread by insiders.

00:28:29.520 --> 00:28:31.120
 It started in maximum security.

00:28:31.120 --> 00:28:36.280
 And all they do, you know, is they offer prayer.

00:28:36.900 --> 00:28:37.860
 They share the gospel.

00:28:38.200 --> 00:28:39.180
 They read the Bible.

00:28:39.640 --> 00:28:43.160
 They learn together how to follow Jesus in a prison.

00:28:43.980 --> 00:28:48.860
 And God is doing marvelous things in that environment.

00:28:49.580 --> 00:28:56.420
 So I wouldn't start, I wouldn't say, what are we going to do with the Western church or the American church?

00:28:56.540 --> 00:28:57.400
 What is that?

00:28:57.780 --> 00:28:58.580
 Where's the headquarters?

00:28:58.780 --> 00:28:59.760
 Who represents it?

00:28:59.860 --> 00:29:01.520
 Who, you know, it's not a person.

00:29:01.700 --> 00:29:02.720
 It can't do anything.

00:29:04.140 --> 00:29:09.740
 So it starts with Jesus tapping you on the shoulder and say, come follow me.

00:29:09.860 --> 00:29:10.860
 I'll teach you how to fish.

00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:13.660
 That's what movements.

00:29:13.660 --> 00:29:20.000
 And Jesus is building that and he's still living in a creative tension with the institution.

00:29:20.500 --> 00:29:22.540
 But he's saying, come and join me.

00:29:22.700 --> 00:29:29.940
 You know, the whole parable of the Good Samaritan, the pinnacle of that is not the son coming home,

00:29:30.360 --> 00:29:36.200
 but the father outside with the Pharisaic older son saying, come and join.

00:29:36.820 --> 00:29:38.360
 Come and join the party.

00:29:39.040 --> 00:29:42.000
 And so that's what he's doing the whole time, even with the Pharisees.

00:29:42.080 --> 00:29:42.660
 Come and join.

00:29:42.660 --> 00:29:47.340
 And you look at the early chapters of Acts, they're saying the same thing.

00:29:47.620 --> 00:29:52.200
 You know, when they get put on trial, they're preaching the gospel and say, come and join what we're doing.

00:29:53.280 --> 00:29:54.320
 Well, they didn't.

00:29:54.460 --> 00:29:59.120
 And so judgment came in AD 70 and Jerusalem was destroyed.

00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:05.880
 So while, so the critiques are fine, but it's not a movement.

00:30:06.140 --> 00:30:09.320
 A movement is when you start following and fishing.

00:30:09.320 --> 00:30:19.620
 For us, you know, part of what we're doing is this idea of creating movements or helping people, mostly bivocational people, but people create movements digitally.

00:30:19.940 --> 00:30:27.280
 You know, talking about fringe, but it's, you know, reimagining what a movement can look like in a prison system and doing that.

00:30:28.080 --> 00:30:35.080
 You know, for us, it's reimagining what church is in a digital ecclesiology.

00:30:35.080 --> 00:30:37.880
 What is, you know, you're talking about, hey, go take a walk with your neighborhood.

00:30:38.620 --> 00:30:51.560
 You know, we've got, I can tell you stories of guys that are witnessing and sharing Jesus while playing video games or on Discord together or in a Facebook group on the community.

00:30:51.740 --> 00:30:53.180
 There's a guy that runs a church.

00:30:53.880 --> 00:30:54.600
 His name's Andre.

00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:55.860
 What's Andre's name?

00:30:55.920 --> 00:30:56.700
 Andre Anderson.

00:30:58.060 --> 00:30:58.940
 Barbecue Church.

00:30:59.380 --> 00:31:01.640
 Dude, like, shares Jesus.

00:31:02.120 --> 00:31:03.420
 Barbecue Assemblies of God.

00:31:03.500 --> 00:31:06.560
 I don't think it's a real Assemblies of God church, but he calls it Barbecue Assemblies of God.

00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:09.700
 And it's, everything's barbecue and everything's Jesus.

00:31:09.920 --> 00:31:16.100
 And he just is constantly, he's got thousands of people, like, tracking because he's a barbecue nut.

00:31:16.100 --> 00:31:24.520
 And, and, and, and, but he's, he's a hardcore Jesus follower and, and is, and is, is creating disciples, utilizing this niche target.

00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:40.500
 But, and the challenging thing for us is, is really, and this is something that, that I, I wear as, as a badge of honor, is, hey, we can't go so explosive with innovation and ideation.

00:31:40.500 --> 00:31:51.740
 We can't reimagine the church so far that we forget what we're supposed to be, that, that we, we, we lose, you know, what the early church was.

00:31:52.040 --> 00:32:03.740
 And, and it's, and it's constantly challenging us to, to go back to the book of Acts, you know, to, to talk, you know, you know, 3, 3M, no place left to talk to church circle.

00:32:03.740 --> 00:32:07.820
 Hey, Acts 2, 36 to 47, what do you see that, what do you see the church function?

00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:10.180
 What are the 11 functions that the church doing in this context?

00:32:10.560 --> 00:32:11.800
 How are we doing that digitally?

00:32:11.900 --> 00:32:12.440
 What is worship?

00:32:12.540 --> 00:32:12.920
 What is prayer?

00:32:12.980 --> 00:32:13.440
 What is teaching?

00:32:13.560 --> 00:32:16.620
 What is, you know, and just, just rolling through all of that.

00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:17.120
 Yeah.

00:32:17.400 --> 00:32:18.520
 Communion is going to look different.

00:32:18.780 --> 00:32:23.260
 Baptism may be challenging, but that doesn't mean that you don't do it.

00:32:23.300 --> 00:32:28.600
 It means that, that you, that you innovate in that space, you know, and, and I've just.

00:32:28.600 --> 00:32:30.920
 The, the anchor point, you're right.

00:32:31.060 --> 00:32:46.380
 The anchor point has to be, you know, for us, Acts 2, 36 to 47, this, and the church is the fruit of the outpouring of the spirit and the proclamation of the word.

00:32:46.380 --> 00:33:00.140
 So word and spirit is driving this mission and the fruit we see at the end of that first day of the life of the church, that, that this is what church is in any age.

00:33:00.140 --> 00:33:14.400
 And so if we're going to sort of contextualize and experiment, we, first of all, we've got to build it off Acts 2, 36 to 47 and everything else in the New Testament, the gospels that supports that.

00:33:15.140 --> 00:33:19.480
 And that gives us the freedom to say, well, is, is that church, you know?

00:33:19.480 --> 00:33:33.360
 So, so, I mean, this is years ago, we, we trained Joy Meng, and she had family on the far northeast of China, not near the border with Korea, I think, North Korea or something.

00:33:34.220 --> 00:33:37.160
 They, they didn't have internet, but they had telephone.

00:33:37.520 --> 00:33:45.920
 So we're training her how to share the gospel, how to read the Bible for discipleship and all of that, giving her those skills.

00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:55.620
 And without telling me, she's on, on the phone to her family in this isolated, frozen village in, in northern China.

00:33:56.300 --> 00:34:00.900
 And she turned up to the training and said, Steve, did I do the right thing?

00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:02.280
 I said, oh, what have you done, Joy?

00:34:02.560 --> 00:34:05.640
 And she said, I baptized my brother.

00:34:06.660 --> 00:34:08.920
 And I said, yeah, how'd you do that?

00:34:08.980 --> 00:34:11.780
 Because I knew he was way up and she's in Melbourne, you know?

00:34:12.160 --> 00:34:18.760
 And she said, well, I got my mum to get, because she's already, and the mum's already a believer, a big bucket of water.

00:34:21.300 --> 00:34:26.500
 And then I said over the phone, I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

00:34:26.720 --> 00:34:28.440
 And mum poured the water over him.

00:34:28.500 --> 00:34:29.260
 Mum dunked him.

00:34:29.340 --> 00:34:29.920
 That's awesome.

00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:33.420
 Now, some people are going to be horrified.

00:34:33.520 --> 00:34:34.360
 Was that immersion?

00:34:34.860 --> 00:34:48.860
 You know, all of this sort of stuff is, and I'm thinking, a lost person got saved and baptized and is now meeting it for discipleship, you know, learning how to read the scriptures together.

00:34:49.120 --> 00:34:50.160
 Joy's trained them.

00:34:50.680 --> 00:34:53.760
 And they're the first family in that village who are believers.

00:34:54.800 --> 00:34:58.620
 So I'm saying, well, Joy, you don't need to do the next baptism.

00:34:58.780 --> 00:35:02.700
 As long as they're a baptized disciple, they can do the next one and the next one.

00:35:02.820 --> 00:35:05.720
 So you keep fueling that work of God.

00:35:06.100 --> 00:35:10.480
 So we're trying to work out what it is, but it's still what we see in the book of Acts.

00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:19.240
 You know, Joy doesn't have to get on a plane and fly home in order to do the baptism.

00:35:20.740 --> 00:35:28.080
 But the next one, it would be good if it was person to person, preferably, but it doesn't have to be if it's impossible.

00:35:28.920 --> 00:35:38.440
 Let's, I mean, I don't want to get lost on this, but I'm going to speak for my friend, DJ Soto, VR pastor, virtual reality.

00:35:38.440 --> 00:35:40.960
 Actually, he was the first pastor in virtual reality.

00:35:41.940 --> 00:35:44.320
 He did a virtual reality baptism.

00:35:44.480 --> 00:35:45.620
 This was maybe a decade ago.

00:35:46.520 --> 00:35:48.440
 Wired Magazine did a story on it.

00:35:48.440 --> 00:35:50.520
 He was on Fox News.

00:35:50.780 --> 00:35:52.100
 He was on Comedy Central.

00:35:52.280 --> 00:35:56.260
 He was read publicly by a lot of the talk shows.

00:35:57.500 --> 00:36:00.600
 And so, like, he knows the good and the bad centered around that.

00:36:00.660 --> 00:36:06.560
 We've all experienced that at some level with some of the different ecclesiology pieces.

00:36:06.700 --> 00:36:07.260
 But let's do this.

00:36:07.320 --> 00:36:08.200
 Let's dig in.

00:36:09.300 --> 00:36:11.120
 Because, I mean, we've been talking about Acts.

00:36:11.680 --> 00:36:12.800
 You wrote a book about Acts.

00:36:12.980 --> 00:36:14.840
 You know, let's actually talk about this.

00:36:15.020 --> 00:36:16.320
 I love the book.

00:36:17.040 --> 00:36:19.100
 It's, I feel like it's half biblical commentary.

00:36:19.100 --> 00:36:21.900
 I feel like it's half explanation of movement.

00:36:21.900 --> 00:36:24.980
 And then it's actually half of modern movements.

00:36:24.980 --> 00:36:30.700
 And you're paralleling what we see in scripture to, you know, some things that are happening globally.

00:36:30.700 --> 00:36:32.860
 Not even just, you know, you're in Australia.

00:36:33.140 --> 00:36:38.220
 So, but there's, you know, India and a lot of other nations and representation in there.

00:36:38.320 --> 00:36:39.840
 So, you know, maybe talk to us a little bit.

00:36:39.940 --> 00:36:43.100
 What's your take on this book and the power behind it?

00:36:44.100 --> 00:36:50.020
 Well, I think, as you might have mentioned, the big shift for me was to realize it's a movement of God.

00:36:50.580 --> 00:36:50.900
 Nothing.

00:36:51.480 --> 00:36:53.680
 There would be no Christian faith.

00:36:53.780 --> 00:36:56.620
 There would be no movement unless Jesus had risen from the dead.

00:36:58.240 --> 00:37:07.740
 Taut is just grounded them in the purpose of God throughout scripture and then sent the spirit and set them loose.

00:37:09.040 --> 00:37:15.640
 And, and all of a sudden a great weight should lift off our, our shoulders.

00:37:16.140 --> 00:37:17.720
 This is a movement of God.

00:37:18.220 --> 00:37:22.720
 So let's study this book and see what are the recurring patterns.

00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:26.880
 You know, we probably don't select leaders by casting lots anymore.

00:37:27.320 --> 00:37:34.540
 Well, that was a one-off because they're replacing one of the, the original 12 apostles and they want to make sure this is a God thing.

00:37:34.640 --> 00:37:35.660
 We've got two candidates.

00:37:35.960 --> 00:37:37.340
 They're both equally qualified.

00:37:38.360 --> 00:37:40.300
 So that's not a repeated pattern.

00:37:40.460 --> 00:37:42.780
 So we don't have to do, although John Wesley gave it a go.

00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:44.640
 He would select just for a while.

00:37:44.740 --> 00:37:46.900
 See, how does that go for our group leaders?

00:37:47.000 --> 00:37:48.720
 We'll just select them by luck, you know.

00:37:50.260 --> 00:37:57.300
 But it's not a biblical mandate, but is it, you know, the other things, you know, this is the life of discipleship.

00:37:57.540 --> 00:37:59.140
 This is what it produces.

00:37:59.320 --> 00:38:08.900
 And then you think, well, it's just getting humming in Jerusalem, but already this is a flowing back to the Jewish diaspora already.

00:38:08.900 --> 00:38:21.400
 You know, we don't even know who started the church in Rome, would have been ordinary believers from Pentecost, most likely, who've traveled back home after coming to Jerusalem for pilgrimage.

00:38:21.600 --> 00:38:23.960
 So already this thing's overflowing.

00:38:24.740 --> 00:38:31.320
 So we should be looking in that and, first of all, despairing because it's not happening.

00:38:31.620 --> 00:38:35.300
 You know, we're waiting for the Holy Spirit to tell us we should be involved.

00:38:35.460 --> 00:38:38.260
 It's in the Great Commission, someone told me.

00:38:38.260 --> 00:38:41.260
 You know, it's just a Logos word at the moment.

00:38:41.400 --> 00:38:43.940
 We want it to become a Rhema word before.

00:38:44.320 --> 00:38:47.320
 Say, well, do you love your wife?

00:38:47.420 --> 00:38:50.020
 Are you waiting for a Logos, a Rhema word for that?

00:38:50.640 --> 00:38:55.080
 A word from the Spirit to love your wife or not beat your children or not?

00:38:57.140 --> 00:38:58.700
 It's there in Scripture.

00:38:58.920 --> 00:38:59.840
 It's all Scripture.

00:39:00.520 --> 00:39:07.620
 So that drives us to despair because, like the first disciples, we're way off the mind.

00:39:07.620 --> 00:39:08.500
 Off the mark.

00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:13.940
 And despair drives us to dependence on God.

00:39:14.580 --> 00:39:15.320
 Remake me.

00:39:15.540 --> 00:39:23.220
 I mean, one of the worst moments in a man's life is when God speaks through his wife.

00:39:24.280 --> 00:39:26.140
 And that happened for me with Michelle.

00:39:26.800 --> 00:39:29.820
 I'd written my first book and it was very successful.

00:39:29.880 --> 00:39:31.360
 It still is very successful.

00:39:31.520 --> 00:39:32.780
 She said, this is a great book.

00:39:32.960 --> 00:39:34.400
 I'm expecting praise.

00:39:35.020 --> 00:39:38.960
 The next thing out of her mouth was, but when are you going to do something?

00:39:40.340 --> 00:39:44.120
 And the worst thing about that is, that was a word from God.

00:39:44.500 --> 00:39:47.020
 You know, how unfair to go through my wife.

00:39:48.620 --> 00:39:51.620
 She led me back into the harvest field.

00:39:52.340 --> 00:39:56.920
 And all of a sudden, you know, God's bringing people across our path.

00:39:57.840 --> 00:40:05.140
 People are coming to mostly internationals, Iranians, Chinese, Koreans, or whatever.

00:40:05.940 --> 00:40:09.260
 And into discipleship and into church formation.

00:40:10.560 --> 00:40:18.620
 I had to feel the gap between my experience and the book of Acts and feel uncomfortable.

00:40:18.820 --> 00:40:25.020
 But then I had to take a step of obedience with some simple training with somebody else.

00:40:25.660 --> 00:40:27.340
 And now we know what True North is.

00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:31.260
 True North is the end of that first day of Pentecost.

00:40:32.040 --> 00:40:37.500
 Disciples and churches, because it's overflowing from Jerusalem, to the glory of God.

00:40:38.700 --> 00:40:45.740
 And so what happens is some of us camp on the first part of Pentecost.

00:40:46.840 --> 00:40:48.460
 The Spirit comes in power.

00:40:48.460 --> 00:40:49.980
 So we've got the upper room.

00:40:50.360 --> 00:40:51.820
 Some have upper room ministries.

00:40:51.960 --> 00:40:52.820
 It never ends.

00:40:53.040 --> 00:40:55.260
 We're always in the upper room, 24-7.

00:40:56.940 --> 00:41:05.340
 Well, how long between the Spirit falling on them in the upper room and the Word hitting the streets?

00:41:05.720 --> 00:41:08.080
 Was it five minutes or was it 50 minutes?

00:41:09.040 --> 00:41:12.640
 So you've got the live video feed of the upper room.

00:41:12.720 --> 00:41:17.380
 The only trouble is the Holy Spirit's left the room and is out there.

00:41:18.100 --> 00:41:20.360
 It's inspiring all of God's people.

00:41:20.360 --> 00:41:21.460
 Peter got up.

00:41:21.460 --> 00:41:27.480
 But the Spirit comes to set everybody free, to proclaim the goodness of God.

00:41:27.700 --> 00:41:29.980
 So every believer is a witness.

00:41:30.240 --> 00:41:35.600
 They may not be an evangelist, but everybody can proclaim the goodness of God through Christ.

00:41:36.600 --> 00:41:44.900
 So some are camping there and not realizing the Spirit comes to bring glory to the Lord Jesus throughout the whole world.

00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:46.660
 You don't need a rhema for that.

00:41:47.400 --> 00:41:49.580
 That's the living Word of God speaking.

00:41:49.660 --> 00:41:53.460
 Some people camp with the Word.

00:41:54.360 --> 00:41:57.100
 So, Peter, let's have a convention.

00:41:57.320 --> 00:41:58.660
 Just preach all week, man.

00:42:00.660 --> 00:42:08.200
 And it's all about the Word to the believer in the service or the seminary.

00:42:08.200 --> 00:42:15.280
 Well, there's not a single recorded message in the book of Acts in a church service.

00:42:16.420 --> 00:42:22.660
 There's one message to the elders, and all the other messages are in evangelistic situations.

00:42:23.300 --> 00:42:26.720
 So this is a dangerous word.

00:42:26.840 --> 00:42:28.520
 It's not a word you contain.

00:42:29.260 --> 00:42:34.200
 It's a word that is on the road from Jerusalem to the ends of the earth.

00:42:34.680 --> 00:42:38.800
 And the whole time, you want to know what's causing the multiplication?

00:42:40.280 --> 00:42:43.440
 It's the Word that multiplies and grows and spreads.

00:42:43.600 --> 00:42:44.820
 Well, how do we know that's happening?

00:42:44.820 --> 00:42:56.400
 Because the fruit of the Word and the Spirit are disciples and churches to the glory of God in ever-growing circles from Jerusalem to the ends of the earth.

00:42:56.800 --> 00:43:03.320
 So this is a God thing, but it's going to unsettle us.

00:43:03.960 --> 00:43:10.080
 It's – and you think the Word is always triumphing in Acts.

00:43:10.440 --> 00:43:12.300
 It never takes a backward step.

00:43:12.600 --> 00:43:13.680
 It's never overcome.

00:43:14.520 --> 00:43:15.720
 It's total victory.

00:43:15.940 --> 00:43:17.980
 And you think, well, that's just triumphalism.

00:43:18.680 --> 00:43:20.360
 Yes, it is, because it's God.

00:43:21.260 --> 00:43:32.600
 But the flip side is the messengers are harried, harassed, lacking finances, beaten up.

00:43:32.700 --> 00:43:33.360
 They're in prison.

00:43:34.140 --> 00:43:35.400
 I mean, you think of Paul.

00:43:36.340 --> 00:43:38.360
 You know, here is Paul.

00:43:38.820 --> 00:43:40.640
 You've been in prison a couple of years.

00:43:40.680 --> 00:43:41.880
 You're going for more prison.

00:43:42.040 --> 00:43:42.880
 You'll be on trial.

00:43:42.880 --> 00:43:46.080
 And in the middle, you get this nice Mediterranean's cruise.

00:43:47.140 --> 00:43:57.500
 And the greatest apostle since ever, apart from Jesus, is in a hurricane and he's about to drop into the Mediterranean.

00:43:58.300 --> 00:44:01.680
 He probably can't swim and there's no lifeboat.

00:44:02.520 --> 00:44:07.340
 Now, he's got assurances from God he'll get, but how is this a good use of his time?

00:44:07.620 --> 00:44:08.960
 You know, how is this?

00:44:10.340 --> 00:44:15.160
 So, here you are, this, he's, and you think, why, Lord?

00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:20.860
 You know, Stephen, one of the greatest leaders in the early church, he gets murdered.

00:44:22.280 --> 00:44:25.340
 And, you know, well, why?

00:44:25.820 --> 00:44:27.180
 Well, because we follow Jesus.

00:44:28.240 --> 00:44:33.600
 The triumph of God, the power of God, and yet earthen vessels.

00:44:35.600 --> 00:44:41.060
 And he's glorified through Paul's surrender in the Mediterranean Sea.

00:44:41.760 --> 00:44:44.560
 And then there's a snake waiting for him on the beach, you know.

00:44:45.920 --> 00:44:47.460
 But he gets to run.

00:44:47.700 --> 00:44:48.600
 He gets to run.

00:44:49.640 --> 00:44:55.360
 The good news is we're asking people to create digital movements, not to get on boats or.

00:44:56.380 --> 00:44:57.020
 Oh, don't worry.

00:44:57.180 --> 00:44:58.320
 Trouble will find them.

00:44:58.320 --> 00:44:58.500
 No.

00:44:58.680 --> 00:44:59.020
 Yeah.

00:44:59.020 --> 00:44:59.520
 I promise.

00:44:59.700 --> 00:45:00.020
 Exactly.

00:45:00.020 --> 00:45:01.240
 Trouble will find them.

00:45:01.500 --> 00:45:03.160
 If they're doing this stuff.

00:45:03.840 --> 00:45:05.220
 Yeah, there's snakes everywhere.

00:45:05.600 --> 00:45:06.120
 Waiting.

00:45:06.420 --> 00:45:09.780
 And how does Stephen triumph in death?

00:45:10.300 --> 00:45:12.000
 Because Jesus is with him.

00:45:12.920 --> 00:45:15.520
 Not because he's courageous or tough.

00:45:15.680 --> 00:45:17.020
 You know, how does Paul triumph?

00:45:17.120 --> 00:45:19.380
 Because in his weakness, he finds the Lord Jesus.

00:45:20.020 --> 00:45:31.340
 And for sure, if you're pursuing this on the digital world, yeah, trouble will find you if you're making disciples and forming them into churches to the glory of God.

00:45:33.100 --> 00:45:36.160
 And in the midst of the trouble, you will find him.

00:45:37.060 --> 00:45:39.700
 Well, I know it's true because I've lived it.

00:45:40.480 --> 00:46:02.340
 You know, it's this weird intersection where I feel like it's almost a cycle where there is that desperation that you describe of the – it's like the delta between what I'm living and what I see in the book of Acts.

00:46:02.340 --> 00:46:05.360
 So that's what gets that motion started.

00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:15.780
 But as obedience occurs and God is with you and things happen, there's another kind of desperation that occurs.

00:46:16.480 --> 00:46:20.660
 And it's from all the dangerous scenarios that Jesus is calling you into.

00:46:21.120 --> 00:46:31.280
 And all of the fear of rejection or the fear of reprisal that comes with that.

00:46:31.400 --> 00:46:32.620
 And sometimes it happens.

00:46:33.380 --> 00:46:35.820
 I've got a crooked nose to prove it.

00:46:36.880 --> 00:46:40.340
 And, you know, that's just one of those things that happens.

00:46:40.460 --> 00:46:49.660
 But it keeps you in the mode of desperation and dependence on the one who is with you and the only one that matters.

00:46:52.060 --> 00:47:00.620
 So, I mean, let me ask this because, you know, we as within the church digital, you know, I talk a lot about movement – about multiplication.

00:47:01.540 --> 00:47:05.240
 You know, I don't know that – and the movement of the digital church is very new.

00:47:05.340 --> 00:47:09.140
 We've never seen a digital church multiply at this point.

00:47:09.300 --> 00:47:12.520
 At least if it's happening, it's happening not to my awareness.

00:47:12.660 --> 00:47:13.900
 J-Mo, I think you would agree with that.

00:47:14.260 --> 00:47:15.980
 It's not happening yet.

00:47:16.100 --> 00:47:17.500
 But we're teaching it.

00:47:17.540 --> 00:47:18.380
 We're reinforcing it.

00:47:18.540 --> 00:47:21.860
 We're casting vision, apprenticing, contextualization.

00:47:21.860 --> 00:47:23.900
 We're praying in faith so that it will happen.

00:47:23.920 --> 00:47:24.280
 Exactly.

00:47:24.440 --> 00:47:25.460
 It is going to happen.

00:47:26.020 --> 00:47:26.320
 Yes.

00:47:26.680 --> 00:47:29.340
 And so, like, we're always multiplication, multiplication, multiplication.

00:47:30.400 --> 00:47:33.580
 And now we're, you know, in the same breath.

00:47:33.580 --> 00:47:45.600
 Now I'm hearing, oh, yeah, like, you know, Satan's roaring lion and tragedy is coming and hardship and that.

00:47:45.940 --> 00:47:58.540
 How do you balance, like, hey, like, you know, you're opening yourself up and at the same time now you're trying to apprentice and bring someone in to that same vulnerable position.

00:47:58.900 --> 00:48:00.880
 Hey, yeah, I do need to be dependent on God.

00:48:00.880 --> 00:48:08.800
 And sometimes being dependent on God means I'm sacrificing my safety or I'm sacrificing some things around me.

00:48:09.100 --> 00:48:16.740
 And in 2024, that's a harder pill to swallow than in the past, or at least it's harder to get people to see that.

00:48:16.900 --> 00:48:23.260
 What's that dependence on releasing control and even, like, multiplying through some of this?

00:48:23.980 --> 00:48:24.520
 Is that making sense?

00:48:24.680 --> 00:48:25.400
 Well, yeah.

00:48:25.540 --> 00:48:28.400
 One is to remember this is a movement of God.

00:48:29.280 --> 00:48:30.860
 He's already at work.

00:48:31.580 --> 00:48:35.480
 And I'm just thinking of Robert.

00:48:36.120 --> 00:48:37.240
 He's in Kenya.

00:48:38.040 --> 00:48:45.460
 He's online and he's looking with a lot of other Kenyans for help with the ministry and all of that.

00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:48.900
 But he's, God's had him on this journey.

00:48:49.080 --> 00:48:51.400
 He was, like, in a Pentecostal movement.

00:48:51.540 --> 00:49:00.320
 He was a bishop with a lot of responsibility and God called him out just to go do pioneer mission work in southern Sudan with a lot of refugees.

00:49:01.720 --> 00:49:07.440
 So that's already, he's been tested and he's proved faithful.

00:49:07.980 --> 00:49:11.540
 And when he goes, by the way, he has seven kids and a wife.

00:49:13.760 --> 00:49:20.960
 Now, he's online, he's on Facebook, and there's some guy, Austin or Ewan or something in England.

00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:30.200
 He's on Facebook and he's saying, oh, okay, here's three or four Kenyans who were looking for training and coaching and input.

00:49:31.120 --> 00:49:32.940
 I know Joey in Nairobi.

00:49:33.540 --> 00:49:35.820
 And so he flips into Joey.

00:49:36.160 --> 00:49:37.280
 And Joey's a mate of mine.

00:49:37.340 --> 00:49:38.640
 I've just done an interview with him.

00:49:39.900 --> 00:49:40.980
 And he filters.

00:49:43.220 --> 00:49:44.620
 Who's God working in?

00:49:45.120 --> 00:49:45.860
 These guys.

00:49:45.980 --> 00:49:49.820
 And they're not dishonest guys, but some of them are looking for a salary.

00:49:50.040 --> 00:49:51.100
 They're looking for finance.

00:49:51.460 --> 00:49:52.380
 And so he filters.

00:49:52.560 --> 00:49:53.980
 I don't have money to give you.

00:49:54.460 --> 00:49:55.580
 This is the deal.

00:49:55.720 --> 00:49:56.440
 We'll be brothers.

00:49:56.580 --> 00:49:57.540
 We'll go the journey.

00:49:57.740 --> 00:50:00.480
 But, you know, I'll train you and you'll do it.

00:50:02.080 --> 00:50:04.880
 And Robert's the only one who turns up.

00:50:08.380 --> 00:50:13.340
 And Joey and his mate Justin trained Robert.

00:50:14.580 --> 00:50:19.920
 And, again, Robert's selling secondhand clothes to provide for his family.

00:50:20.500 --> 00:50:25.300
 And he was a denominational supervisor with an income and all of that.

00:50:27.560 --> 00:50:30.760
 But God shaped this man.

00:50:30.760 --> 00:50:36.120
 And so when Joey and Justin come along, it's not just, guys,

00:50:37.060 --> 00:50:41.340
 what can you do to Robert to make him motivated and godly?

00:50:41.640 --> 00:50:43.320
 And, you know, they can train him.

00:50:43.360 --> 00:50:44.380
 They can give him skills.

00:50:44.740 --> 00:50:47.800
 But, no, they've actually already filtered out.

00:50:47.880 --> 00:50:53.320
 We're looking for somebody who God has his hand on and who we can trust.

00:50:54.320 --> 00:50:56.440
 Well, it's early days.

00:50:56.440 --> 00:51:00.840
 But there's 60 churches planted.

00:51:01.800 --> 00:51:04.800
 You know, just simple reproducing churches.

00:51:05.520 --> 00:51:14.140
 But what Robert's done in this more isolated place of the country, he can help and is already now training and helping others multiply.

00:51:14.740 --> 00:51:19.600
 Well, a lot of their relationship, Justin and Joey with Robert, is online.

00:51:21.200 --> 00:51:23.340
 But this is, I think, a principle.

00:51:23.340 --> 00:51:29.200
 If you find a Robert, because I've got others, you know, I've got New Zealanders that have found a Filipino.

00:51:29.800 --> 00:51:30.960
 And they're filtered.

00:51:31.300 --> 00:51:32.500
 And he's the real deal.

00:51:32.620 --> 00:51:34.060
 And he's doing this stuff.

00:51:34.520 --> 00:51:36.040
 Well, they just hopped on an airplane.

00:51:37.640 --> 00:51:43.420
 You know, after working with him for a year or so, seeing his faithfulness and fruit, and they've gone on the ground.

00:51:43.560 --> 00:51:45.900
 They've got people in South Africa, people in Thailand.

00:51:47.260 --> 00:51:51.640
 So Joey and Justin have gone the five-hour journey.

00:51:51.840 --> 00:51:52.600
 It's not that far.

00:51:52.760 --> 00:51:53.720
 It's just Kenyan roads.

00:51:53.840 --> 00:51:55.280
 They've gone the five-hour journey.

00:51:55.400 --> 00:52:00.740
 They've hung out with Robert for a week, training, going out into the harvest, training the workers.

00:52:00.740 --> 00:52:09.820
 So the principle is technology should be, it shouldn't be a substitute.

00:52:10.740 --> 00:52:12.180
 It should be a supplement.

00:52:13.200 --> 00:52:22.880
 So if you're looking to see movements and you start finding the Roberts out there because you're looking for a certain type of person.

00:52:23.860 --> 00:52:27.860
 I mean, you can train anyone online, but these are people you're investing in.

00:52:27.860 --> 00:52:30.660
 You do what Jesus is and choose them carefully.

00:52:31.340 --> 00:52:42.540
 Well, you may have to get on a plane or get in the car and drive across the country or whatever so that there is, it's not just all digital, but the two are serving one another.

00:52:43.020 --> 00:52:47.140
 And so, you know, someone's got digital church.

00:52:47.240 --> 00:52:52.000
 Okay, can you get a face-to-face church started in your neighborhood or with your family?

00:52:53.080 --> 00:52:55.400
 So it's not always just a substitute.

00:52:55.860 --> 00:52:57.660
 Yeah, and that's interesting.

00:52:57.960 --> 00:53:16.760
 That's actually what we encourage, and we are seeing that, where a digital does spur up a micro model, a digital micro, where now, you know, churches are happening in homes and in orphanages and after-school daycare centers and prisons and, you know, other missional areas.

00:53:16.760 --> 00:53:25.180
 And people are following their calling and they're utilizing digital to complement that.

00:53:25.660 --> 00:53:32.740
 One of the things that we're actually doing, and this is kind of, this happened, I was telling our leadership this morning, this happened organically.

00:53:32.740 --> 00:53:41.240
 And I didn't realize, oh my gosh, this is what God's doing until it was like done, where we started engaging with, we've got what we call our movement leaders.

00:53:41.340 --> 00:53:45.400
 And these are the people that are, you know, actively, aggressively trying to do movements.

00:53:45.560 --> 00:53:46.860
 We had about three in our system.

00:53:47.380 --> 00:53:49.720
 And I was like, hey, for this new season, I want to onboard some others.

00:53:49.820 --> 00:53:57.200
 And I just started randomly writing down names and started asking other people, hey, what are some names and trying to figure out who we're going to recruit in this next season.

00:53:57.680 --> 00:54:01.900
 And it's, you know, the guy in Germany that's doing a digital planting network.

00:54:02.200 --> 00:54:04.900
 And, oh my gosh, now I've got a guy in Finland that's looking for somebody.

00:54:05.000 --> 00:54:07.720
 Hey, Germany guy, could you connect with the Finland guy?

00:54:08.200 --> 00:54:14.980
 And I've got the guy in Nigeria, and now there's another guy in Nigeria that wants some coaching on digital evangelism.

00:54:15.280 --> 00:54:19.620
 Hey, Nigerian guy, could you talk to, why don't you guys like figure it out on your own?

00:54:20.280 --> 00:54:32.080
 And, you know, a lot of what we're seeing, you know, is a lot of the contextualization of where it's not this face and this person trying to travel the world.

00:54:32.080 --> 00:54:41.120
 But it's more of, hey, let me connect you with somebody in your area, even if it's another country, at least maybe it's on the same continent, to understand some of the contextualizations.

00:54:41.320 --> 00:54:42.340
 I tell this story.

00:54:43.880 --> 00:54:47.300
 There was a woman, she may be listening to this podcast.

00:54:47.560 --> 00:54:50.960
 And so I told this story multiple times, and she knows I'm telling it.

00:54:51.700 --> 00:54:57.320
 But she was, she wanted to start a South African virtual reality church planting network.

00:54:57.660 --> 00:55:02.560
 Like they wanted to plant a serious number of churches in virtual reality in South Africa.

00:55:03.680 --> 00:55:08.160
 And so she approached me, I'd read a book on this, I'd spoken publicly on it, like whatever.

00:55:08.860 --> 00:55:17.020
 And she approached me though, and she said, hey, Jeff, my, whatever the religious leader was, it was a word I didn't recognize.

00:55:18.080 --> 00:55:25.000
 But the religious leader and I would like you to be the face and the leader of this virtual reality church planting network in South Africa.

00:55:25.700 --> 00:55:27.480
 And I had a good chuckle.

00:55:27.680 --> 00:55:32.440
 And honestly, I remember looking at her, I'm like, that is the stupidest idea I've ever heard in my life.

00:55:32.560 --> 00:55:35.260
 I don't, I am not the face for virtual reality.

00:55:35.260 --> 00:55:40.420
 Like even in avatar form, I'm, I don't know anything contextually about South Africa.

00:55:40.420 --> 00:55:42.180
 I've never even been on your continent.

00:55:42.860 --> 00:55:48.200
 Now, why don't we equip you to be the, the, the, the face and the voice?

00:55:48.280 --> 00:55:55.600
 Why don't we empower you with some of the knowledge and so that you can supply your passion to, to really spearhead this.

00:55:55.600 --> 00:56:03.880
 And so the, the, the nuancing and contextualization is very, um, for, for digital, it's very important for us.

00:56:04.560 --> 00:56:11.220
 Um, even to the context of, like, I can tell you a virtual reality churches that meet in physical space once a year.

00:56:11.220 --> 00:56:17.060
 Like they met in, in San Francisco in 23 and in 24, they're planning on meeting in London.

00:56:17.660 --> 00:56:25.320
 Um, and, and so like as, as a team, um, we're even trying to figure out how to, to meet physically together.

00:56:25.320 --> 00:56:30.300
 When, when Jason and I am in this, like, we're in two different time zones at this point.

00:56:30.540 --> 00:56:40.680
 Um, and so like when we actually get together, even though we're digital guys, like it's awesome to be able to sit down and talk face to face and to share and to dialogue.

00:56:41.100 --> 00:56:44.000
 Honestly, I feel like we're more productive physically than we are digitally.

00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:51.320
 That kind of goes counter-cultural with what you hear, but like, we just, we just nail through stuff, um, in, in, in, in physical.

00:56:52.000 --> 00:57:01.240
 Um, but I don't know that it cheapens what we can do digitally either, because there are people that we're engaging with and people that are having conversation.

00:57:01.240 --> 00:57:14.980
 I can tell you the story of, of a guy, um, that, uh, hadn't been in church in 10 years, uh, but accepted Christ in, uh, on a platform called Twitch, um, because he was going to what he, what was actually a video game church.

00:57:15.440 --> 00:57:21.160
 And, uh, the reality was, is this guy that hadn't been in a physical church building in 10 years because of, of abuse issues.

00:57:21.580 --> 00:57:24.220
 He didn't even know that video game church was weird.

00:57:24.580 --> 00:57:25.320
 He thought it was normal.

00:57:26.100 --> 00:57:34.880
 And so, you know, from a missional implication and arguably even from a discipleship, man, we're just really excited to be on, on the cusp and the curve of this.

00:57:34.960 --> 00:57:36.220
 And not everybody understands it.

00:57:36.520 --> 00:57:43.100
 Um, you know, I, I, I jokingly tell people that one day I'll stand before God and I'll be like, okay, God, where did I get it wrong?

00:57:43.640 --> 00:57:48.860
 Cause I know we're, we're, I'm flying so counter-cultural to what the established norm is.

00:57:49.060 --> 00:57:51.820
 I'm sure there's something that, you know, the angel.

00:57:52.000 --> 00:57:53.660
 That's going to happen to all of us though.

00:57:53.860 --> 00:57:54.060
 Yeah.

00:57:54.120 --> 00:57:54.320
 Yeah.

00:57:54.320 --> 00:58:01.900
 I, I, I fully expect that, but, but it's like, there's so much radicalness in this, but I'm, I'm trying in the, in this.

00:58:02.000 --> 00:58:03.500
 I don't know if it's so radical, dude.

00:58:03.640 --> 00:58:14.320
 I mean, granted, all you got to do is go to the new Testament and replace letter with, um, online chat.

00:58:15.800 --> 00:58:17.120
 That's all you got to do.

00:58:17.820 --> 00:58:29.000
 And what, what is interesting though, and I think, uh, Steve is touching on this is the tension that, um, a movement leader feels with remote ministry.

00:58:29.940 --> 00:58:39.540
 And that tension is, um, we, you can find it in first John verse, um, 12, where John saying, you know, I'm writing you pen and ink.

00:58:39.960 --> 00:58:47.700
 I long to be with you face to face so that our joy can be full, but that didn't stop him from writing the letter.

00:58:48.060 --> 00:58:48.160
 Yeah.

00:58:48.560 --> 00:58:48.780
 Yeah.

00:58:49.220 --> 00:58:57.620
 And I don't think John had a concept of the reach and the longevity that that letter would take.

00:58:58.220 --> 00:59:09.940
 When he thought he was just talking with his friends and you find that same basic paradigm of people, the apostle Paul doing remote.

00:59:09.960 --> 00:59:14.780
 remote church planting, remote leadership development with Titus, with Timothy.

00:59:15.260 --> 00:59:26.840
 And then he's sending people from one country to another to help and resource and do all of these things, making these connections using letters while he is stuck in prison.

00:59:27.920 --> 00:59:28.480
 Yeah.

00:59:28.800 --> 00:59:43.840
 And so he figured out a way to have that, um, that impulse of, well, am I just going to be here depressed because I'm stuck in prison or am I going to do what I can with what I have?

00:59:44.280 --> 00:59:49.240
 And the reality is we have more resources at our disposal.

00:59:49.660 --> 00:59:53.960
 We can do so much more with the abundance of what we have.

00:59:54.180 --> 01:00:03.840
 We just need to start using it to make the same connections and remotely spark movements all around the world.

01:00:03.900 --> 01:00:11.000
 I don't know why we're not, I honestly don't because it's not, it is, it is happening.

01:00:11.340 --> 01:00:15.360
 Um, you know, Kenyan goes to England, it is happening.

01:00:15.840 --> 01:00:16.840
 Back to Joey.

01:00:17.100 --> 01:00:17.540
 It is.

01:00:17.660 --> 01:00:18.040
 You're right.

01:00:18.200 --> 01:00:18.680
 It is.

01:00:18.860 --> 01:00:28.600
 And, and their training, if a lot of it is on, you know, on online like this, uh, but they're also going to get down and, and hang out with him.

01:00:28.720 --> 01:00:32.880
 Yes, yes, yes, but an awful lot is, uh, is happening.

01:00:33.580 --> 01:00:43.400
 Uh, sometimes we can't say, uh, I'm even just through, uh, WhatsApp or signal, um, or I got a great story.

01:00:43.400 --> 01:00:53.060
 I mentioned in the book on acts, a case study in Rajasthan, um, you know, there were many factors that led to the breakthrough.

01:00:53.200 --> 01:00:57.520
 I think there's like quarter of a million people have come to the Lord over 15 years.

01:00:57.600 --> 01:01:13.400
 So it's a solid movement, but one of the key breakthroughs is an SD card with the auto Bible, the on, on, cause they can't read, but they've got a phone and it's a real basic thing, real basic phone.

01:01:13.980 --> 01:01:16.120
 And now we're going to listen to the Bible.

01:01:16.120 --> 01:01:20.400
 We're going to answer the questions and we're going to learn how to take this to our neighbors.

01:01:21.140 --> 01:01:38.440
 So they don't, they can't afford internet, but they can afford a real basic phone with a little, and so it's an SD card, but now they have the Bible in their language, you know, text for those who can read or audio for those who can't.

01:01:38.520 --> 01:01:42.960
 And then a pattern of, you know, this is how disciples live.

01:01:43.660 --> 01:01:47.760
 So, and, you know, let's look at acts two 36 to 47.

01:01:48.040 --> 01:01:51.920
 Now, can you begin doing that in your community with your household?

01:01:51.920 --> 01:02:02.720
 And so hundreds of thousands of people have turned to the Lord, not just praying a prayer, okay, not just putting a hand up.

01:02:02.880 --> 01:02:09.760
 These are disciples overwhelmingly in an unreached place, hundreds of thousands.

01:02:10.540 --> 01:02:16.480
 And a key to it, it's not the, it's not the cause, but it's a key, just like those letters were a key.

01:02:16.800 --> 01:02:18.260
 It's just a bit of plastic.

01:02:22.100 --> 01:02:23.260
 Let me ask this.

01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:26.780
 Probably the biggest, or let me say this, I don't know what's the biggest.

01:02:26.780 --> 01:02:34.320
 The most consistent problem that we see across all digital churches is the idea of funding.

01:02:35.620 --> 01:02:40.980
 Like even within just transparent, I had this conversation with leadership at the Church Digital today.

01:02:41.760 --> 01:02:45.940
 Hey, y'all, we are a bivocational ministry.

01:02:47.320 --> 01:02:54.520
 You know, Jason Morris here on the webinar is, or excuse me, on the podcast, weird, is on leadership.

01:02:54.520 --> 01:02:58.380
 And he's contracting, and we pay him a stipend.

01:02:58.460 --> 01:03:01.660
 We pay him not what he's worth and not what he contributes.

01:03:01.840 --> 01:03:03.220
 We pay far less than that.

01:03:03.960 --> 01:03:12.620
 And there are, you know, contracts that we have, and we typically, confession hour, like we typically pay our leadership for the Church Digital.

01:03:13.320 --> 01:03:14.440
 I've said this publicly.

01:03:14.440 --> 01:03:22.840
 I have not taken a penny from the Church Digital, especially since we've pivoted towards this new, the movement model.

01:03:23.820 --> 01:03:27.980
 You know, some of the work that I've done previously and some of the contracts, you know, I ran through that.

01:03:28.440 --> 01:03:32.440
 But that was more of like a business transaction, not donor money.

01:03:34.600 --> 01:03:40.080
 And so, Steve, really what we're wrestling with is this idea of bivocational.

01:03:40.620 --> 01:03:43.880
 Now, you mentioned earlier, hey, like we're training some people.

01:03:44.240 --> 01:03:45.320
 They needed to get vetted.

01:03:45.460 --> 01:03:46.700
 There were three people that were interesting.

01:03:47.020 --> 01:03:47.920
 Two of them wanted money.

01:03:48.520 --> 01:03:51.240
 One of them, you know, stuck around to actually do it without.

01:03:52.920 --> 01:03:57.960
 I'm actually curious, like, how do you fund a movement?

01:03:58.780 --> 01:04:00.260
 You know, we're talking bivocational.

01:04:00.820 --> 01:04:04.980
 You know, there's operational and minimal level of payment for leaders.

01:04:05.160 --> 01:04:11.900
 But if I got to pay every movement leader, if I got to pay every group leader, like, money kills movement.

01:04:12.320 --> 01:04:17.460
 And it's just I said that to my leadership meeting today and I said that I've said that in other contexts.

01:04:17.720 --> 01:04:20.180
 Like, and so I don't want to I don't want to kill this thing.

01:04:21.240 --> 01:04:25.500
 I've seen it kill movements in Cuba and other South American countries.

01:04:26.000 --> 01:04:34.480
 But I don't want to fund this thing so little that it doesn't get anywhere and we can't even, you know, pay the pay the rent.

01:04:34.900 --> 01:04:41.040
 Or I've got some guy that that, you know, can contribute 40 hours a week and is doing incredible work.

01:04:41.040 --> 01:04:47.300
 But now he's doing five hours a week and his movement dies because we weren't able to get him the funding that he needed.

01:04:47.300 --> 01:04:49.240
 And he's freaking out because he can't pay his mortgage.

01:04:49.680 --> 01:04:53.520
 Like, how do you balance managing a business, starting a movement?

01:04:53.880 --> 01:05:02.820
 Like, I just this is this is the thing that I lose sleep on at night is is really the financial aspects of of what we're trying to do.

01:05:03.820 --> 01:05:08.940
 Any like, is there a biblical grounding, coaching, advice, thought like I would love insight from you on.

01:05:09.080 --> 01:05:12.500
 Yeah, there's some certainly biblical principles.

01:05:14.080 --> 01:05:18.520
 First principle is no one should be paid to do what an ordinary believer should be doing.

01:05:20.720 --> 01:05:27.580
 So typically in movements, someone starting a new church, you're not going to pay that.

01:05:29.180 --> 01:05:36.560
 That's what it should be so structured that, you know, it's a commitment, but it can be done.

01:05:38.180 --> 01:05:48.160
 Then the next principle is if you're going to fund, you fund a multiplication.

01:05:50.320 --> 01:06:00.320
 So in the sense of someone's just maintaining a local church, well, we're not taking responsibility to fund that.

01:06:01.320 --> 01:06:08.320
 The local church should if there needs to be funding or it should be a role that can be done by vocationally.

01:06:09.620 --> 01:06:25.320
 But if someone's, you know, a Robert's emerging and he's already showing faithfulness, effectiveness as a disciple maker, church planter and helping others do the same.

01:06:26.460 --> 01:06:29.680
 Well, funding becomes a bit of an issue and it probably already is.

01:06:29.780 --> 01:06:33.760
 He's still selling secondhand clothes to support his family.

01:06:35.440 --> 01:06:36.700
 So what do we see?

01:06:36.800 --> 01:06:44.060
 Well, we see in the scriptures, Paul, he will work at times, you know, but in those years of imprisonment, he couldn't work.

01:06:44.140 --> 01:06:45.880
 They're not going to give him a sharp tool.

01:06:46.040 --> 01:06:47.400
 He's chained to a soldier.

01:06:48.080 --> 01:06:53.080
 You know, here's this tool so you can do your trade and people come and go.

01:06:54.160 --> 01:06:55.760
 It was expensive.

01:06:56.900 --> 01:07:04.020
 Paul paid for his accommodation for two years in Rome and it was the most expensive accommodation.

01:07:04.380 --> 01:07:07.080
 I mean, Rome was in the whole world.

01:07:08.180 --> 01:07:13.060
 So he had access to funds that he didn't earn by tent making somehow.

01:07:13.260 --> 01:07:14.720
 It says he paid it out of his own pocket.

01:07:14.760 --> 01:07:15.680
 We don't know where from.

01:07:16.280 --> 01:07:21.540
 We know that funding can come, you know, say from the Philippian church.

01:07:22.700 --> 01:07:32.400
 So churches, Paul's, where there are strings attached, he's not taking money or where he's doing pioneer evangelism, he's not taking money.

01:07:33.000 --> 01:07:36.180
 But he's got a partnership with the Philippians and they're supporting him.

01:07:37.100 --> 01:07:38.980
 So there are a whole range.

01:07:39.040 --> 01:07:40.800
 People say it has to be bivocational.

01:07:40.920 --> 01:07:42.420
 Well, Jesus wasn't bivocational.

01:07:43.700 --> 01:07:51.080
 A lot of the time, Paul wasn't bivocational because he wasn't allowed to work or was only there for a matter of weeks and couldn't set up the business.

01:07:51.080 --> 01:07:54.080
 So there's a whole range of options.

01:07:55.280 --> 01:08:08.480
 But it means let's focus on the multiplier, on a Robert who's stepping up, a man of character and a man of effectiveness in mobilizing and multiplying disciples and churches.

01:08:09.740 --> 01:08:11.860
 Let's have a conversation about that.

01:08:11.860 --> 01:08:13.960
 Now, it's still early days.

01:08:14.040 --> 01:08:26.160
 But interestingly, Joey and Justin connected him with some of their contacts in Nepal and over the Internet, you know, digitally.

01:08:27.500 --> 01:08:32.900
 He's so there's Nepal because there's a movement of God in Nepal, you know, over a million new believers.

01:08:33.080 --> 01:08:33.580
 It's wonderful.

01:08:34.080 --> 01:08:40.600
 And he's speaking into that because he's living in a more rural village sort of situation.

01:08:41.400 --> 01:08:42.660
 And they invite him to come.

01:08:43.900 --> 01:08:45.040
 Well, he's poor.

01:08:46.800 --> 01:08:55.880
 And somehow, I'm sure Joey probably helped or Justin, but somehow, you know, it was local believers and local churches that gave.

01:08:55.960 --> 01:08:59.360
 And he got himself to Nepal and God used him marvelously.

01:09:00.420 --> 01:09:05.260
 So it's an ongoing now, but, you know, is this a long-term solution for him?

01:09:05.420 --> 01:09:09.140
 I shouldn't sort of personalize just about Robert, but it is a dilemma.

01:09:11.040 --> 01:09:21.400
 And it just means you've got to be very careful and because mixed motivation, well, let's just link him to some American churches.

01:09:22.680 --> 01:09:26.860
 Well, now you've got to come and do a tour of America to raise that money.

01:09:27.500 --> 01:09:47.080
 And some guys like Robert can handle that and not get corrupted, but not everyone can because, you know, you're elevating them out of their culture and their economic level of and it's ruining them to go back and be in there.

01:09:47.080 --> 01:09:56.040
 Not, but some multipliers like Robert have been able to do, you know, Western funding and it's served them well.

01:09:56.180 --> 01:10:02.180
 So there's no tight, find some major donors.

01:10:02.940 --> 01:10:09.500
 That's the other thing, who understand how strategic the work is.

01:10:10.340 --> 01:10:27.960
 I'm curious, how much are you or a movement leader fundraising for the people within the movement or connecting and networking them to money outside of?

01:10:28.120 --> 01:10:29.320
 Like, how much are you?

01:10:29.320 --> 01:10:31.480
 Yeah, I don't do a lot of that.

01:10:31.700 --> 01:10:38.900
 There are other, like the guys I work with in North India and Nepal, they're weighing that all the time.

01:10:39.020 --> 01:10:44.300
 And they have contacts and, and they, I would bow to their wisdom.

01:10:45.340 --> 01:10:57.280
 There's no, there's some principles, you know, but I don't really handle that direct supervision of those sorts of guys.

01:10:58.680 --> 01:11:04.620
 And I, I race, I, I'm funded by, by a team of supporters.

01:11:05.920 --> 01:11:15.660
 The, the, uh, anything I do towards the books or getting translations out to the developing world that comes out of the proceeds of sales.

01:11:15.660 --> 01:11:17.660
 So that's my fighting fund.

01:11:17.760 --> 01:11:23.000
 So, so I've had to sort of juggle and I'd never call it fundraising.

01:11:23.000 --> 01:11:28.960
 These are people who've, some of them have committed to me now for 20, more than 20 years.

01:11:29.740 --> 01:11:39.920
 Um, so it's a wonderful experience, you know, that, uh, there are people who believe in me and, and, and believe in the work I do.

01:11:40.380 --> 01:11:46.800
 Uh, it's harder in a field like Roberts, but then again, he's working amongst people who are at that level.

01:11:46.800 --> 01:11:58.140
 But what happens when God starts using him in other parts of Africa, which he will do, that's when you've got to step in and, and, and just weigh it carefully.

01:11:59.180 --> 01:12:04.620
 Um, but at least you're doing it with a man of character, proven character and effectiveness.

01:12:06.480 --> 01:12:07.660
 I appreciate that.

01:12:08.160 --> 01:12:10.500
 Um, if you don't call it fundraising, what do you call it?

01:12:10.560 --> 01:12:11.120
 What's your term?

01:12:11.640 --> 01:12:12.660
 Partnership development.

01:12:13.300 --> 01:12:14.160
 Partnership development.

01:12:14.320 --> 01:12:14.460
 Okay.

01:12:14.560 --> 01:12:15.280
 So they're partners.

01:12:15.480 --> 01:12:19.000
 Just that koinonia, the, the Philippian word.

01:12:19.380 --> 01:12:24.580
 This is, this is, this is, uh, my ministry and I'm, I'm inviting you to partner with me.

01:12:24.620 --> 01:12:31.200
 This is God, I'm helping them make a stewardship decision, which means the answer might be no, and that's fine.

01:12:31.900 --> 01:12:42.280
 But this might be what God, there are people out there who, who are motivated to give to this sphere of work that you're doing.

01:12:42.280 --> 01:12:44.440
 You might say, well, a lot of people don't understand it.

01:12:44.480 --> 01:12:45.300
 Well, some do.

01:12:46.320 --> 01:12:53.420
 So part of that is, is to find those people, um, and, uh, to, to draw them in as partners.

01:12:54.120 --> 01:12:54.560
 Yeah.

01:12:55.420 --> 01:12:56.060
 That's good.

01:12:56.140 --> 01:12:56.500
 Thank you.

01:12:56.960 --> 01:12:57.920
 I appreciate that.

01:12:58.000 --> 01:13:03.400
 We're, uh, that's, um, a pain point for the church digital.

01:13:03.640 --> 01:13:05.120
 Honestly, that's a, that's a pain point.

01:13:05.220 --> 01:13:06.200
 I've had that conversation.

01:13:06.200 --> 01:13:16.760
 I would every now and again, and this has happened on, on my, when, especially costs, you know, we had to do a major rebuild of everything a few years.

01:13:16.760 --> 01:13:25.400
 And I, people gave thousands of dollars because they, they, they believe in the podcast, the website, the books.

01:13:25.400 --> 01:13:30.200
 So none of that came to me personally, but it, it's the fighting fund.

01:13:30.200 --> 01:13:32.880
 So I, we're doing another rebuild at the moment.

01:13:32.880 --> 01:13:47.440
 And, and, and so find, let people know that not just a major potential, major donors, but even just people listening to us today, every, you know, at least every year you ought to have a campaign and say.

01:13:47.440 --> 01:13:54.900
 Um, and I always feel like the, the first protocol is these expenses, you know, I, I'm happy to volunteer.

01:13:54.900 --> 01:13:56.300
 I just don't want this.

01:13:56.500 --> 01:14:01.360
 I don't want to lose money if I can, um, would you help me?

01:14:01.600 --> 01:14:06.720
 And this will be the outcome, you know, we'll rebuild the thing or we'll take it to the next level.

01:14:06.720 --> 01:14:13.500
 And there are a lot of people out there that we've never met personally that have been, um, supported.

01:14:14.140 --> 01:14:14.520
 Okay.

01:14:15.520 --> 01:14:17.420
 Wise words, man.

01:14:17.440 --> 01:14:18.980
 I have loved the time here.

01:14:18.980 --> 01:14:25.680
 Uh, went a little longer than, than I was thinking, but this has just been a great podcast and a great conversation.

01:14:25.780 --> 01:14:27.080
 Jason's shaking his head giddy.

01:14:27.160 --> 01:14:28.340
 Uh, and so, so good.

01:14:28.420 --> 01:14:29.140
 Thank you for that.

01:14:29.720 --> 01:14:34.560
 Um, you know, we're going to land the plane here and wrap up, but just briefly, Jason, on your, on your end, any closing thoughts?

01:14:35.880 --> 01:14:48.460
 No, I, I'd love the return to, and, and I, I, I love this refrain that I kept on hearing from Steve was that it's God's movement.

01:14:50.460 --> 01:15:01.520
 And I, I feel like the pressure that we feel, um, we're putting it on ourselves because Jesus said that he would build his church.

01:15:01.960 --> 01:15:02.360
 Yeah.

01:15:02.480 --> 01:15:03.500
 We get to join him.

01:15:03.760 --> 01:15:04.800
 Not the other way around.

01:15:05.020 --> 01:15:05.420
 Yeah.

01:15:05.620 --> 01:15:09.580
 Matthew 6, 33, 34, say first God, and then the hearts of your, things of your heart.

01:15:09.820 --> 01:15:10.580
 So be good to you.

01:15:11.040 --> 01:15:11.940
 Don't worry about tomorrow.

01:15:12.300 --> 01:15:13.540
 You know, uh, it's so good.

01:15:13.880 --> 01:15:19.260
 Um, and even in my own life, trying to, you know, figure out the, even the finances of this thing.

01:15:19.260 --> 01:15:22.600
 It's, it's, and that's, that was echoed in some of the conversations from the meeting this morning.

01:15:22.600 --> 01:15:26.040
 It's like, that's, you know, this is not the stuff you should be worrying about.

01:15:26.180 --> 01:15:27.340
 This is, it's God's problem.

01:15:27.420 --> 01:15:28.340
 Let God figure it out.

01:15:28.380 --> 01:15:30.300
 You just got to get in the position where you trust God towards it.

01:15:30.460 --> 01:15:31.260
 So, so good.

01:15:31.980 --> 01:15:36.480
 Uh, Steve, as we're wrapping up on, on your side, any, any closing thoughts from Australia?

01:15:37.820 --> 01:15:40.820
 Well, just probably take it back to that.

01:15:41.120 --> 01:15:44.560
 Come, come follow Jesus and let him teach you how to fish.

01:15:45.220 --> 01:15:46.800
 It's as simple as that.

01:15:46.800 --> 01:15:50.620
 That is happening all around the world in, in some pretty tough spots.

01:15:50.620 --> 01:16:01.040
 And, um, and that's, if, if that's his promise to us, um, no social trends can stop us.

01:16:01.840 --> 01:16:10.260
 Um, and, you know, tomorrow we could have a major war and the whole internet gets, collapses

01:16:10.260 --> 01:16:16.780
 in on itself and the movement of God would continue or not.

01:16:16.800 --> 01:16:22.880
 We still pursue it using these tools he's given us, but come, come follow Jesus.

01:16:23.140 --> 01:16:24.580
 Let him teach you how to fish.

01:16:25.120 --> 01:16:25.880
 I love that.

01:16:26.820 --> 01:16:27.220
 Awesome.

01:16:27.420 --> 01:16:29.080
 Steve, uh, thank you for the conversation.

01:16:29.460 --> 01:16:31.360
 Um, acts and the movement of God.

01:16:31.460 --> 01:16:32.480
 We'll put a link in the show notes.

01:16:32.620 --> 01:16:33.340
 You can grab that.

01:16:33.740 --> 01:16:37.840
 Uh, if, if you're interested and we'll link to some of these other works as well.

01:16:38.060 --> 01:16:44.000
 Um, JMO mentioned, um, the one that he, rise and fall of movements, rise and fall.

01:16:44.060 --> 01:16:44.440
 Right, right, right.

01:16:44.440 --> 01:16:46.620
 And the one that I had as well.

01:16:47.120 --> 01:16:48.200
 Steve, uh, Steve, this is so good.

01:16:48.280 --> 01:16:51.320
 Thank you so much, uh, for being part of the conversation, but we're going to land the plane.

01:16:51.460 --> 01:16:55.980
 So, uh, for Steve, for JMO, uh, this is Jeff, uh, with the church digital.

01:16:55.980 --> 01:16:57.680
 Thanks for jumping here on the podcast.

01:16:57.780 --> 01:16:58.600
 We'll see you next time on the show.

01:16:59.020 --> 01:16:59.860
 Y'all have a good one.

01:17:00.160 --> 01:17:02.480
 300 coming up next.

01:17:02.640 --> 01:17:04.540
 I have no idea.

01:17:05.080 --> 01:17:10.680
 Uh, and so stay tuned next week because I'll be like, Hey, this is what I'm doing for 300.

01:17:10.680 --> 01:17:14.560
 300 because as of now, I have no clue, but 300 coming up around the corner.

01:17:14.660 --> 01:17:15.000
 See you then.

01:17:15.000 --> 01:17:29.340
 I'll be like, hey, this is what I'm doing for 300.