WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.000 Martin Luther King Jr. said that which you would change, you must first love. 00:00:04.440 --> 00:00:08.400 So I think, you know, the fact that we love the church enough to speak to it 00:00:08.400 --> 00:00:12.940 and call it into a new reality is really important. 00:00:14.260 --> 00:00:18.100 Whether the church will always recognize it, I don't know. 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:20.760 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:21.700 --> 00:00:25.600 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church, 00:00:25.600 --> 00:00:29.420 but more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:31.640 Is disciple-making possible digitally? 00:00:32.020 --> 00:00:34.080 How should we approach the digital mission field? 00:00:34.380 --> 00:00:36.960 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? 00:00:37.360 --> 00:00:41.260 Oh, and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this? 00:00:42.300 --> 00:00:44.180 Whether you're a big or small church, 00:00:44.520 --> 00:00:49.020 the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, 00:00:49.380 --> 00:00:50.840 digitally and physically. 00:00:51.320 --> 00:00:53.020 And now here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:00:53.200 --> 00:00:56.260 All right, episode 300. 00:00:57.020 --> 00:00:59.260 300 of the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:59.420 --> 00:01:00.740 Jeff here, founder of the Church Digital. 00:01:01.480 --> 00:01:04.440 I am so excited about this conversation. 00:01:04.700 --> 00:01:07.640 I'm so excited about this conversation this evening. 00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:14.220 We just did the live podcast recording of episode 300 in Discord, 00:01:14.580 --> 00:01:19.800 and it was a phenomenal, exciting, incredible, informative night. 00:01:19.800 --> 00:01:24.420 And so I just want to give a quick intro here for it, 00:01:24.460 --> 00:01:26.940 and then I'm going to get out of the way, let the conversation happen. 00:01:27.060 --> 00:01:30.560 We did episode 300, by the way, brought to you by Riverside. 00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:33.880 Thank you to the sponsors, Riverside, for what they're doing with the Church Digital. 00:01:34.340 --> 00:01:37.040 We stretched Riverside to the limit tonight. 00:01:37.660 --> 00:01:39.900 And I'm going to be honest, we had some tech issues. 00:01:40.120 --> 00:01:41.460 I don't think it was Riverside. 00:01:41.520 --> 00:01:48.740 I think it was more some of the technology and some of the internet was struggling with some of our users on there. 00:01:48.740 --> 00:01:54.400 But we had like six people in Riverside, but we had like six people in Riverside and six people in Discord at the same time. 00:01:54.800 --> 00:02:04.980 And so we did a recording in Riverside, and then we did us having the conversation in front of the studio audience in Discord, 00:02:05.080 --> 00:02:08.880 maybe 20, 25 people, I think, total kind of floating in and out. 00:02:09.020 --> 00:02:15.640 By the way, the Church Digital Discord hit 300 people right as we were walking into episode 300. 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:17.480 So super excited about that. 00:02:17.580 --> 00:02:21.560 Congratulations to – well, just so happy to have everybody on. 00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:28.060 I forget, John Favorite, I think, was our third – our 300th Discord member. 00:02:28.380 --> 00:02:37.080 And so ironically, we were just talking to John about asynchronous learning communities, thechurch.digital.lc for our learning community. 00:02:37.160 --> 00:02:41.940 We were just talking async with John earlier that day, and then like he won the award to get the 300th. 00:02:42.520 --> 00:02:44.940 I don't know what it will actually get, but he got something. 00:02:45.380 --> 00:02:45.860 Thanks, John. 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:47.760 Episode 300. 00:02:48.700 --> 00:02:53.700 So Stunami and I, somewhere around 295, we're doing a podcast about virtual reality church planting. 00:02:53.700 --> 00:03:00.500 And towards the end of the podcast, we started just dreaming about what we were going to do for 300 because I didn't really have a plan, if I'm honest. 00:03:00.920 --> 00:03:04.680 And nothing really seemed like it was going to work out. 00:03:05.340 --> 00:03:14.480 And so Stu actually came up with the idea that we ended up doing for 300, which involved Alan freaking Hirsch. 00:03:14.480 --> 00:03:24.640 That's right, Alan Hirsch, the freaking Alan Hirsch, church movement catalyst, church planting guru. 00:03:25.300 --> 00:03:28.680 Alan freaking Hirsch is on the podcast here at the Church Digital. 00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:36.460 By the way, if you're keeping score, this is the second Australian that we had on the Church Digital podcast in as many weeks. 00:03:36.700 --> 00:03:47.780 Two weeks, 299 with Steve Addison, 300 is Alan Hirsch, and both bringing incredible wisdom and guidance to planting and into movements. 00:03:48.340 --> 00:03:56.060 Now, Alan Hirsch today, we really focus on APEST, five-fold ministry. 00:03:56.600 --> 00:03:59.040 Some of you may be like, what's Jeff smoking? 00:03:59.140 --> 00:04:00.420 I've never heard of APEST. 00:04:00.500 --> 00:04:01.580 Is that like rats? 00:04:01.700 --> 00:04:03.460 Is that what we're calling mouses these days? 00:04:03.920 --> 00:04:04.180 Mouses. 00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:05.320 Is that the way you say that, mice? 00:04:06.060 --> 00:04:07.460 The little trackpads? 00:04:08.020 --> 00:04:08.180 No. 00:04:08.460 --> 00:04:09.520 Okay, that was a bad joke. 00:04:09.620 --> 00:04:09.980 Forgive me. 00:04:10.100 --> 00:04:10.340 Corny. 00:04:11.020 --> 00:04:21.160 But in reality, this is something that a lot of digital churches and virtual reality churches, a lot of digital ministries, a lot of churches in general, we need to better utilize. 00:04:21.800 --> 00:04:25.600 And Alan does a deep dive for us here in episode 300. 00:04:25.740 --> 00:04:27.820 By the way, it's not just Alan into the conversation. 00:04:28.360 --> 00:04:32.640 We invited a whole bunch of church planners in digital and metaverse spaces. 00:04:32.640 --> 00:04:35.900 We invited Joey Santos from Church at a Bar. 00:04:36.520 --> 00:04:39.660 We invited Dr. John Harris from Hearts Like His. 00:04:39.780 --> 00:04:44.000 We invited Stunami from Vector Church. 00:04:44.060 --> 00:04:48.460 And we also invited in God Squad's Susie. 00:04:49.420 --> 00:04:53.940 Like, you know, there's a lot of wealth of knowledge on church planting. 00:04:54.440 --> 00:05:09.460 And as we, the most telling night for me that tonight, and we did this recording, was to see Susie's face light up as he's talking about a pest and how a pest can influence what's happening at God Squad Church. 00:05:09.700 --> 00:05:13.000 He has literally been running God Squad Church for nine years. 00:05:13.200 --> 00:05:17.420 And tonight, Susie discovered something that made him excited about it. 00:05:17.780 --> 00:05:21.940 Like, this is, this is like nine years, and he's just now finding it. 00:05:22.400 --> 00:05:28.680 And so, like, audience, lean in as we're talking about what a pest is going to look like. 00:05:28.960 --> 00:05:33.300 Now, I do want to beg forgiveness for the room, of the room, from the room. 00:05:33.940 --> 00:05:35.640 We had some tech issues tonight. 00:05:38.220 --> 00:05:46.540 I overstretched the systems, and Dr. John is not going to be as present in this podcast, probably not at all. 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:56.080 We'll have to see what we can do in editing, but very little, which is sad, because Dr. John is a freaking genius when it comes to a pest. 00:05:56.760 --> 00:06:02.580 And so, it really made me sad that he was not able to get on the recording. 00:06:02.580 --> 00:06:09.860 He was able, finally, at one point towards the end of the podcast, or in Discord, he just jumped in the Discord app without being on the recording. 00:06:10.280 --> 00:06:12.240 And he shared, like, from his heart. 00:06:13.100 --> 00:06:14.120 It was so good. 00:06:14.200 --> 00:06:14.640 Oh, my gosh. 00:06:14.660 --> 00:06:20.680 I want to get Dr. John on a podcast and really do a deep dive just with him in the months to come, in the weeks to come. 00:06:21.800 --> 00:06:31.680 But for today, we're bringing in the Alan Hirsch into the conversation, centered around a pest, five-fold ministry. 00:06:32.180 --> 00:06:34.180 In digital and virtual church planting. 00:06:34.740 --> 00:06:38.380 Episode 300, right here, right now, of the Church Digital Podcast. 00:06:38.620 --> 00:06:39.200 Thanks, everybody. 00:06:39.400 --> 00:06:39.720 Here you go. 00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:45.520 Gentlemen, welcome to episode 300 of the Church Digital Podcast. 00:06:46.280 --> 00:06:48.560 We had some tech issues. 00:06:49.500 --> 00:06:50.000 I knew. 00:06:50.180 --> 00:06:50.640 I knew. 00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:59.580 It was like the thing that was going to happen with, you know, five people coming into how we do the podcast, the live podcast with the recording. 00:07:00.220 --> 00:07:04.320 A couple of them have never, are not Discord natives, which is completely fine. 00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:04.900 That's great. 00:07:05.620 --> 00:07:14.360 And then Andy, who's our community expert here with the Church Digital, is doing a church service right now with Lux Digital and those guys. 00:07:14.860 --> 00:07:17.540 Like, I just knew, I was like, this is not going to be good getting started. 00:07:17.540 --> 00:07:25.120 And so, thank you very much for your patience, those of you that are here with us in Discord, watching this on the live recording. 00:07:25.400 --> 00:07:27.720 This will be publishing sometime next week. 00:07:27.860 --> 00:07:33.760 I do want to ask this question of the gentleman here on stage with us, because I did not earlier. 00:07:34.320 --> 00:07:36.880 Do you have any hard stops? 00:07:37.120 --> 00:07:40.400 Like, if we went till, what is it, 6.30 our time? 00:07:40.460 --> 00:07:47.600 If we went for an hour to 7.30 Eastern New York time, is that going to freak anybody out beyond that? 00:07:47.760 --> 00:07:49.280 Is everybody okay time-wise? 00:07:49.720 --> 00:07:51.580 I got to stop at 5.30 Central. 00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:55.440 Okay, cool. 00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:56.180 No, it's a joke. 00:07:56.340 --> 00:07:57.080 It's a joke. 00:07:59.200 --> 00:07:59.800 He's out. 00:08:01.840 --> 00:08:05.180 Hey, you know, Stu, we've been hanging out a lot, and you're a Metaverse virtual guy. 00:08:05.240 --> 00:08:08.880 So, can you virtually read my mind right now, what I'm thinking right now towards you? 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:12.740 Do you have a picture of what that would look like right now? 00:08:13.500 --> 00:08:15.200 Yep, and it's making me blush, bud. 00:08:16.860 --> 00:08:18.920 Hey, Jeffrey just had a minor heart attack. 00:08:19.300 --> 00:08:22.680 Hey, listen, by the way, a lot of you are new to the Church Digital Discord. 00:08:22.900 --> 00:08:23.200 Thank you. 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:23.440 Welcome. 00:08:23.580 --> 00:08:24.660 Glad to have you on here. 00:08:25.160 --> 00:08:27.600 Would love to have you engage through this. 00:08:27.640 --> 00:08:30.320 We talk about it all the time with the Church Digital in Discord. 00:08:30.540 --> 00:08:31.320 Join the conversation. 00:08:31.320 --> 00:08:48.380 And as we're having this interview with Alan Hirsch, Alan freaking Hirsch, as I've been saying on the streams for the past couple weeks, you know, the Church Catalyst planting expert here, Church movement expert, we want to hear from you. 00:08:48.420 --> 00:08:52.640 What questions do you have as we're digging through this, and how does it apply? 00:08:53.300 --> 00:08:56.140 How is this applying to some of the stuff you're working on in real time? 00:08:56.140 --> 00:09:01.940 So join the conversation with us, and we'll be talking to and through you guys all night long in the chat. 00:09:02.040 --> 00:09:08.480 Thank you, Hilmi, for getting that started off, and Flatcap's always good with an animated GIF. 00:09:09.040 --> 00:09:09.480 So cool. 00:09:10.500 --> 00:09:21.860 So let me quickly just introduce the room here, because honestly, we could do a full podcast just focusing on the five people that are joining me today. 00:09:22.980 --> 00:09:39.400 In no particular order, I've got Joey Santos, who is a microchurch pastor, former digital pastor at a hybrid church, but he is a microchurch pastor as well as a operations director for a bar. 00:09:39.400 --> 00:09:56.000 He actually started a church, a church at the bar, and is doing really an incredible micro strategy of reaching bar people and bar employees through a bar while he's actually working at the bar. 00:09:56.360 --> 00:10:00.420 And so, you know, anytime I'm talking micro, I want to involve Joey in the conversation. 00:10:00.420 --> 00:10:20.580 Next to him, at least on my screen, is Stunami and Stuart McPherson, virtual reality pastor at Vector Church, a church plant, does hybrid and virtual reality for a physical church as well called Lakeland, and is really one of the leading voices of a virtual reality church and ministry. 00:10:20.580 --> 00:10:33.340 And anytime I talk VR, I want to bring this guy into the conversation, I got Dr. John Harris, just some guy that I wrote a book with, but does incredible ministry through hearts like his. 00:10:34.400 --> 00:10:35.540 Are we calling it a church? 00:10:35.620 --> 00:10:37.660 Are we still calling it a discipleship group? 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:43.700 You can call it a digital church. 00:10:44.780 --> 00:10:46.660 All right, okay, it's a digital church. 00:10:46.920 --> 00:11:00.180 We went back and forth on that for a season, as I recall, but a digital church, hearts like his, and really engaging with the de-churched and people that are walking away from the church buildings, but are finding Christ and social media in that. 00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:07.660 And so, talking digital, Dr. John is the guy, and so you can check out Sharing Jesus Online, the book that he and I co-wrote. 00:11:07.660 --> 00:11:08.700 It's on Amazon. 00:11:09.160 --> 00:11:14.400 And then next to him, Susie, Matt Souza from God Squad Church. 00:11:14.780 --> 00:11:21.040 To be honest, maybe the oldest active digital church planter I know. 00:11:21.820 --> 00:11:26.180 I mean, I know guys who were doing it before you, Susie, but they're not doing it anymore. 00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:29.140 And so, are you the grandpa of this? 00:11:29.400 --> 00:11:31.460 Do you know anybody that's active doing it longer than you? 00:11:31.880 --> 00:11:33.900 I've never called the grandpa, but I'll take it. 00:11:34.600 --> 00:11:43.620 We were the first gamer church, definitely not the first online digital church, but we have been going, this March we'll celebrate nine years coming up next year. 00:11:43.740 --> 00:11:46.580 So, we've been at it a while, and God's been faithful that we've been able to continue this long. 00:11:47.420 --> 00:11:48.000 Love that. 00:11:48.100 --> 00:11:50.820 So, nine years of a gamer church, God Squad Church. 00:11:51.460 --> 00:11:57.980 And so, hey guys, if you want to put your, you know, information or links to your respective websites, put that in chat on Discord. 00:11:58.100 --> 00:11:58.660 That'll be great. 00:11:59.160 --> 00:12:03.760 We'll transpose that information and get it into the show notes for the people that are watching this on demand. 00:12:04.020 --> 00:12:07.400 There is plenty of opportunities to engage. 00:12:07.520 --> 00:12:08.800 And yes, I see Desert Dwarf. 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:13.720 That would make Amanda Souza the grandma. 00:12:15.700 --> 00:12:16.860 I'm sure she's flattered. 00:12:18.800 --> 00:12:24.400 Amanda, I'm just imagining her right now sitting in a rocking chair on the front porch, waving her broom, saying, get off my lawn. 00:12:25.300 --> 00:12:26.940 So, so much goodness there. 00:12:27.060 --> 00:12:29.660 But, you know, y'all, thank you very much for joining in this conversation. 00:12:29.660 --> 00:12:39.920 And I do want to bring in into the combo Alan Hirsch, who is, my gosh, like it was funny. 00:12:40.020 --> 00:12:46.620 One of the first conversations I had with Alan Hirsch was me giving praise to actually his email signature. 00:12:47.140 --> 00:13:01.500 Because he has like eight or nine, all the stuff that he's listed as, as that he's doing, where he's like the catalytic leader or the visionary or the cat, like all of these organizations and all of this influence in, in, in church planting and innovation. 00:13:01.740 --> 00:13:19.340 And like, he's, he's doing it and he is so well-connected, well-versed and really has brought about, you know, when I talk about modern church movement and we're even going to talk about like APES and a lot of, a lot of the things that we're building, church planting around in 2024. 00:13:19.500 --> 00:13:23.680 This guy's the architect of, and, and, and he and his contemporaries. 00:13:23.680 --> 00:13:28.300 And so like, it's a, it's an honor to, to bring him into the church digital podcast. 00:13:28.300 --> 00:13:31.820 I have felt at a personal level of the church digital ministry. 00:13:31.820 --> 00:13:36.020 I felt nothing but respect from Alan and, uh, in his team. 00:13:36.580 --> 00:13:44.660 Um, which, you know, if you know me and this is not humble brag, I'm just some moron that knows how to like type on a computer and roughly knows how to do tech. 00:13:44.660 --> 00:13:57.680 Well, and so, um, you know, the fact that we've, we've gotten to this point, you know, through the church digital and, um, that Alan's on here for episode 300 of the church digital podcast is, um, is, is beautiful. 00:13:57.680 --> 00:14:02.860 And so gentlemen, thanks for, for hanging out with us and, and appreciate you all coming in. 00:14:02.940 --> 00:14:13.740 And so, um, what I really want to kick off, uh, with here at the beginning, all this started with a podcast episode with Stunami and I, maybe a month or two ago. 00:14:14.260 --> 00:14:17.160 Uh, we were talking about what we were going to do for episode 300. 00:14:17.160 --> 00:14:28.880 It came up and, uh, the entire podcast previous with Stunami that he and I were on, we'd spent talking about APEST and we had, um, Stunami, who was on with us? 00:14:29.120 --> 00:14:29.920 Uh, just Peyton Jones. 00:14:30.180 --> 00:14:31.920 Peyton Jones was on with us, Alan Hirsch. 00:14:32.020 --> 00:14:32.140 Yeah. 00:14:32.180 --> 00:14:32.320 Yeah. 00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:33.180 Another one of your friends. 00:14:33.700 --> 00:14:43.200 Um, and so we were talking, yeah, metaverse church planting with Peyton and, uh, church plantology, a book that Stunami and, you know, Stunami is reading recently and I've, I've read historically. 00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:52.700 And so talking through that and, um, and, uh, flatbeard, excuse me, whitebeard, um, who's in the room, uh, makes the comment about APEST. 00:14:52.780 --> 00:14:54.800 Before he even started the interview, he asked a question on APEST. 00:14:54.860 --> 00:14:56.520 And of course that took over the entire conversation. 00:14:56.860 --> 00:14:59.820 So much so Stunami is like, Hey, we got to continue this on. 00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:16.700 And, and really when I look at APEST, the fivefold, um, when I see the potential of, of how that's being influenced on, on developing leaders and recruiting leaders and structuring teams, I see huge potential and effect of that in physical churches. 00:15:16.700 --> 00:15:24.640 But if I'm honest, and I'm, I'm calling myself out at this, and a lot of the digital churches, we've not even gotten to that point yet. 00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:30.400 And, and so as we're, as we're heading in, we've got all these planters where I want to dig into their experiences. 00:15:30.400 --> 00:15:37.320 And at some point I'm going to let them interview you, Alan, and open up the floodgates, but I'd love to spend some time just right up here at the beginning. 00:15:37.760 --> 00:15:42.780 As we're talking about episode 300, um, let's talk about APEST. 00:15:43.560 --> 00:15:45.100 Specifically, what is it? 00:15:45.320 --> 00:15:46.340 How's it defined? 00:15:46.600 --> 00:15:48.620 You know, I could sit here and talk about it for half an hour. 00:15:48.820 --> 00:15:51.340 I know you've got like a two minute definition to get it started. 00:15:51.340 --> 00:16:01.540 And I would love for our team here to start to unpack maybe what this can look like, or what it will look like, or what it should look like, even among our, our teams in our churches. 00:16:01.760 --> 00:16:02.760 So Alan, can you kick us off? 00:16:04.280 --> 00:16:04.680 Okay. 00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:07.720 Well, Jeff, thank you, mate, for having me on. 00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:09.460 It's a, it's a privilege. 00:16:09.460 --> 00:16:16.920 And yes, we do go back a little bit and I'm grateful for your ministry and your pioneering work in, in this field. 00:16:17.220 --> 00:16:20.080 And all of you guys, it's just awesome to be here. 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:25.160 I'm laughing because, you know, you say, I've got a two minute definition. 00:16:25.760 --> 00:16:30.640 So one of the, uh, things I call myself is the Lord of the long answer. 00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:37.560 Uh, not known for the short kind of, uh, short answers or the short definitions, but I will give it a go. 00:16:38.520 --> 00:16:43.480 Uh, I think you pretty much indicated, you know, the use that we've often used as a word fivefold. 00:16:44.040 --> 00:16:50.660 Um, that tends to be used in a certain, um, you know, form of church that, uh, 00:16:50.660 --> 00:16:56.160 and itself has come into some questioning and some critique, uh, over time. 00:16:56.160 --> 00:16:59.100 So I tend to avoid it, although it's referring to the same thing. 00:16:59.420 --> 00:17:08.340 Ephesians four typology of ministry, uh, which is embodied in Jesus, uh, perfectly embodied in Jesus, given to the church in his ascension. 00:17:08.820 --> 00:17:20.820 Uh, and that, uh, you know, that we might become the fullness of Christ and expressed throughout the book of Acts, which you see, uh, you know, played out in the life of Paul and others who play in the, in the book of Acts. 00:17:21.260 --> 00:17:29.500 Um, effectively, um, effectively Ephesians four, uh, the fivefold ministry is apostle, uh, effectively a pioneer. 00:17:29.760 --> 00:17:32.220 It's a, it's a really a missionary function more than anything else. 00:17:32.360 --> 00:17:34.720 If you, the scent one is, that's what it means. 00:17:34.980 --> 00:17:41.900 So on the frontier pioneering, uh, innovative kind of work, uh, in trying to create new forms of church. 00:17:42.360 --> 00:17:55.740 The prophet is the one who aligns God's people with God's purposes, um, an aligner, uh, covenant guardian, if you prefer the theological language, um, very important radar of the church. 00:17:55.820 --> 00:17:58.860 If you switch off the radar, you crash into the side of the mountain. 00:17:59.260 --> 00:18:08.580 So a very important function, uh, both of these form what, what Paul calls the foundation, uh, of the church is very important dynamic between them. 00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:13.300 What I call prophetic intelligence for apostolic architecture, but we can come back at that later. 00:18:13.880 --> 00:18:27.360 The evangelist is really the singer of the song, the, um, the communicator of the message, the person who invites people into the story as it unfolds, the champion, the, um, the recruiter to the cause. 00:18:27.780 --> 00:18:34.020 Really important function for church growth and just a dynamic positive function you need around to, to be healthy. 00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:49.060 The pastor, the shepherd, uh, is the same word, poyman in the Greek is really the one who creates human community and defends it, uh, human flourishing, uh, connectivity, love, relationship, discipleship in the local setting. 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:57.220 And the, the, the, the teacher is the one who brings wisdom and understanding, um, helps us integrate truth into life. 00:18:58.040 --> 00:19:05.660 Um, and then also distills the ideas of a generation, hands it onto another, that we, that our knowledge of God grows in one generation to another. 00:19:05.760 --> 00:19:06.840 All five are necessary. 00:19:07.360 --> 00:19:14.480 These are given, embodied in Jesus, as I said, given to the church in the ascension, which is a foundational action. 00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:18.380 And then this is played out in, in the life of God's people. 00:19:18.980 --> 00:19:23.600 Um, yeah, so that's a quick two minute Alan Hirsch definition. 00:19:25.660 --> 00:19:29.380 Maybe, maybe not quite two minutes in, in real life, but, but love it. 00:19:29.620 --> 00:19:30.820 That was, that was good. 00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:32.860 I'll, I'll, I'll give you props for that. 00:19:33.320 --> 00:19:38.600 And so, you know, the, the hope is, is to try to develop the five folds. 00:19:39.260 --> 00:19:46.740 Um, you know, at least some of the stuff that we're applying even within the church digital right now is applying those five folds within our, our leadership structure. 00:19:47.420 --> 00:19:54.780 Um, now I, I'm curious and I want to ask the guys, um, you know, I know some of you have varying levels of expertise with five folds. 00:19:54.900 --> 00:19:59.700 I know Dr. John, you have, uh, you know, a lot more experience on this. 00:19:59.700 --> 00:20:03.420 And, you know, I know, uh, maybe some of you, the others are, are maybe a little newer. 00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:06.720 Have you done, um, any analysis for yourself? 00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:10.060 Like what, what do you, how do you rate yourselves? 00:20:10.060 --> 00:20:12.840 Or if you, if you've done the assessment, how did you score for yourself? 00:20:13.960 --> 00:20:14.880 Yeah, go ahead, Susie. 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:15.560 Yeah. 00:20:15.580 --> 00:20:16.220 I took the assessment. 00:20:16.360 --> 00:20:17.660 Uh, Alan absolutely loved it. 00:20:17.660 --> 00:20:20.940 I know we got to talk a little bit about my excitement for, for the podcast started. 00:20:21.100 --> 00:20:23.540 Yeah, I landed on apostle teacher. 00:20:23.660 --> 00:20:27.540 They were super close 36, 35 in my scoring, uh, but was super enlightening. 00:20:27.660 --> 00:20:32.340 I have obviously heard of the five fold ministry, have studied Ephesians four, uh, but really 00:20:32.340 --> 00:20:37.800 we're just super eyeopening to look at it from the approach of building a team around it, understanding 00:20:37.800 --> 00:20:38.760 the role of a shepherd. 00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:44.340 You talked a little bit before how the word pastor can kind of be overly generalized in, in 00:20:44.340 --> 00:20:48.160 the church and the pastor can kind of just be literally every person who does ministry. 00:20:48.540 --> 00:20:49.980 And I was super, super enlightening. 00:20:50.060 --> 00:20:50.800 I really, really enjoyed it. 00:20:50.820 --> 00:20:51.440 Thank you for making that. 00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:55.340 Stu, what are you? 00:20:57.840 --> 00:20:59.680 Uh, literally just, you just put it in. 00:20:59.920 --> 00:21:00.680 I just saw that. 00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:04.960 So you're an apostle 31, um, you know, Susie's apostle. 00:21:05.300 --> 00:21:07.180 I'm, I'm strong apostle as well. 00:21:07.840 --> 00:21:12.000 Um, uh, Joey, do you, do you know your scores? 00:21:12.600 --> 00:21:13.380 Yeah, I did. 00:21:13.480 --> 00:21:13.980 I did. 00:21:14.120 --> 00:21:20.100 Uh, it's teaching first and apostolic second, which I thought was very interesting. 00:21:20.540 --> 00:21:22.680 I know, right. 00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:26.640 You're surprised that I can, I would have picked, I mean, I don't want to, I would have picked 00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:26.900 that. 00:21:28.820 --> 00:21:29.760 I would have picked it. 00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:30.840 Yeah. 00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:32.640 Were you drinking at the time? 00:21:32.800 --> 00:21:35.340 Does that, does that affect, does that affect your scores? 00:21:36.120 --> 00:21:37.580 It brings a puzzle out of him. 00:21:38.060 --> 00:21:46.960 I was like, I was like, even like, and when I looked at it, I was like, really, but that's 00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:50.480 something I started doing almost every weekend, just a year ago. 00:21:50.680 --> 00:21:59.020 Uh, so I'm, I'm wondering, you know, I'm, you know, based on the season of life, the ministry, 00:21:59.540 --> 00:22:02.720 the impact that this can have in you. 00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:04.420 Cause I, I love the instruction. 00:22:05.100 --> 00:22:10.120 I love the descriptions and in a form of direction. 00:22:10.120 --> 00:22:16.980 And I'm, I was, I was thinking this serve, this, this assessment would have helped me 00:22:16.980 --> 00:22:18.880 a ton a year ago. 00:22:19.100 --> 00:22:21.300 That would have helped you a year ago, uh, Joey? 00:22:21.980 --> 00:22:22.340 Yeah. 00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:29.780 And because, you know, I made the decision, I, I'd be in a traditional, uh, church model 00:22:29.780 --> 00:22:33.740 for over 20 years, serve for over 20 years. 00:22:33.740 --> 00:22:35.920 And then all of a sudden I was like, yeah, I'm going to leave this. 00:22:35.980 --> 00:22:38.240 And I'm just going to work in a bar and then do this church thing. 00:22:39.080 --> 00:22:42.660 And, and, uh, you know, and I mean, it flipped everything. 00:22:42.660 --> 00:22:47.380 I was, I was the digital pastor, not preaching every weekend at all. 00:22:48.100 --> 00:22:54.900 Uh, and I, I have not done every weekend preaching for 20 years until I went to the 00:22:54.900 --> 00:22:58.660 church, microchurch, uh, model. 00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:04.160 And the thing, one thing to me, like when I read this is like, man, I, on my setting, 00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:12.700 this, this assessment is extremely helpful because I'm a pastor of a church that I don't have 00:23:12.700 --> 00:23:13.460 to pay mortgage. 00:23:13.460 --> 00:23:16.640 I don't have to pay, uh, bills. 00:23:16.740 --> 00:23:17.780 I don't have the staff. 00:23:17.780 --> 00:23:24.180 I don't have things to manage outside the spiritual side. 00:23:24.420 --> 00:23:28.180 I, I don't have to manage the not-for-profit side of it. 00:23:28.300 --> 00:23:34.680 I just need to manage the spiritual side of the ministry, which is a, it's a big plus. 00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:41.840 I think I'm not saying it's not for other pastors, but I feel like, you know, I can solely 00:23:41.840 --> 00:23:42.640 focus on that. 00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:50.720 So, you know, I, I think that that's what there's so much value in this assessment because 00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:52.840 it really like just, I did that this morning. 00:23:52.840 --> 00:23:56.880 I was like, it just generates so much focus for me now. 00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:02.240 Like things that have to get better, things that have to improve that I didn't see it. 00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:06.060 I really didn't see it because I never had that tool in front of me before. 00:24:06.280 --> 00:24:06.440 Right. 00:24:06.520 --> 00:24:12.380 That's what I really appreciate about what this, this, this, this, um, this assessment really, 00:24:12.500 --> 00:24:14.920 really, really, really helpful in my case. 00:24:16.600 --> 00:24:17.040 Yeah. 00:24:17.040 --> 00:24:23.440 So all of this came out of a book, um, the forgotten ways, Alan, that was the first publishing 00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:24.960 of this back in the early 2000s. 00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:29.340 Yeah, actually it goes, it goes back a little earlier than that, Jeff. 00:24:29.460 --> 00:24:31.840 Uh, the, so there was a book I did before that. 00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:37.620 Uh, I'm, I mean, I've been riffing on this for a long, long time, but in the local church, 00:24:37.620 --> 00:24:42.440 but, um, I wrote a book with a guy called Michael Frost called Shaping Things to Come. 00:24:42.440 --> 00:24:47.200 And we had a chapter on, uh, we called it Apeptin because we used the word pastor. 00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:52.720 Actually, Shepard is the better translation, but, and because you can't have two Ps in an 00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:54.280 assessment, it's not, it doesn't work. 00:24:54.500 --> 00:24:59.240 So, um, but, um, but, uh, you know, so that's been going back quite a long way. 00:24:59.800 --> 00:25:04.460 Forgotten ways, put it as one of the essential elements of movements, which I think it is. 00:25:04.520 --> 00:25:10.880 There's never been a movement that went to scale ever that didn't have fivefold functionality. 00:25:11.220 --> 00:25:12.580 It just doesn't happen. 00:25:13.380 --> 00:25:20.120 And so, um, uh, you know, so that, that, that was in there, but I've written, um, four other 00:25:20.120 --> 00:25:27.480 books on this, two substantial, um, very substantial books on, uh, one on the apostolic in light of 00:25:27.480 --> 00:25:31.320 the fivefold, and that's called The Permanent Revolution, and then one called Five Q, which 00:25:31.320 --> 00:25:36.640 is, uh, my best take on the fivefold ministry, um, with at least what I can do. 00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:38.300 And it's a pretty comprehensive book, too. 00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:41.020 So, yeah, I'm pretty obsessed with it, Jeff. 00:25:41.180 --> 00:25:43.180 Uh, I think it's so important. 00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:49.060 Um, it's, it's a remarkably important, uh, um, thing that's, and, and it amazes me. 00:25:49.800 --> 00:25:54.220 It amazes me that we've actually, uh, we've been there for 2,000 years. 00:25:54.280 --> 00:25:56.120 It's in the scriptures, modeled in Jesus. 00:25:56.320 --> 00:26:01.680 And yet, uh, you know, we've, we've inherited ideas of thinking about the church that have 00:26:01.680 --> 00:26:02.880 pretty much excluded them. 00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:12.520 Um, and the, very intriguing, uh, because, um, when you think about the, the, the, the amount 00:26:12.520 --> 00:26:17.760 of time these words are used, uh, the word pastor, interestingly enough, um, and this is going 00:26:17.760 --> 00:26:19.180 to be a surprise to people here. 00:26:19.620 --> 00:26:25.960 The word shepherd poyman, uh, the noun, the naming word, the identity word, is only ever 00:26:25.960 --> 00:26:30.560 used once of believers in the New Testament, once, my friends. 00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:34.420 And yet, we call everyone pastor in leadership. 00:26:34.580 --> 00:26:35.700 Now, where did that come from? 00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:38.320 Um, that's a problem. 00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:40.180 Uh, pastor's very important. 00:26:40.260 --> 00:26:41.380 It's in this very important text. 00:26:41.460 --> 00:26:42.400 It's not trying to dismiss it. 00:26:42.460 --> 00:26:46.080 There are adverbs and adjectives about that, but, but the, but the noun. 00:26:46.500 --> 00:26:51.860 The word, um, uh, teacher is used about 40 times, most of them to do with false teachers. 00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:58.680 And when you ask people, what's an apostle, it goes something like this, uh, uh, uh, uh, 00:26:58.680 --> 00:26:59.480 they're in the Bible. 00:27:00.420 --> 00:27:02.860 And actually, they are, but they're also outside. 00:27:03.040 --> 00:27:05.260 It was just a basically broad secular function. 00:27:05.560 --> 00:27:08.660 The Bible uses the terminology that's in Greek language. 00:27:09.460 --> 00:27:12.260 Um, so it had a function outside of the church. 00:27:12.560 --> 00:27:16.140 Um, so that's not even correct in itself, although the Bible, it is in the Bible. 00:27:16.380 --> 00:27:19.380 And then they go, uh, uh, uh, uh, there's 12 of them. 00:27:19.440 --> 00:27:21.920 And yes, that's true, but there are also more than 12. 00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:22.500 What's Paul? 00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:24.140 Uh, uh, chopped liver. 00:27:24.860 --> 00:27:28.140 Uh, no, Paul is not one of the original 12. 00:27:28.340 --> 00:27:32.240 And there are also others, and there's about 12 or 13 others named as apostles. 00:27:32.600 --> 00:27:33.420 One of them's a woman. 00:27:34.420 --> 00:27:35.380 Uh, suck that up. 00:27:35.700 --> 00:27:37.640 Um, so here, that's the thing there. 00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:39.020 Uh, word prophet. 00:27:39.360 --> 00:27:42.560 And by the way, the word apostle is used 82 times. 00:27:42.820 --> 00:27:43.720 82 times. 00:27:44.080 --> 00:27:45.540 Most people haven't got a clue what it is. 00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:50.900 And the word prophet is used, I'm not even kidding you, 144 times in the New Testament. 00:27:51.780 --> 00:27:54.060 Most people haven't got a clue what a prophet is. 00:27:54.380 --> 00:27:55.680 Oh, it's in the Old Testament. 00:27:55.880 --> 00:27:56.120 Really? 00:27:56.600 --> 00:27:57.880 It's all the way through the New. 00:27:57.940 --> 00:28:00.220 It's the most referred to of all the ministries. 00:28:01.120 --> 00:28:03.220 And, um, so here's the problem with this. 00:28:03.300 --> 00:28:04.480 And I'll, I'll finish at this point. 00:28:05.040 --> 00:28:11.100 Um, when, when the Bible uses words, they carry revelatory value. 00:28:12.020 --> 00:28:13.900 They, they're communicating something to us. 00:28:13.960 --> 00:28:16.120 And we call it theologos, God words. 00:28:16.740 --> 00:28:18.120 They matter hugely. 00:28:18.440 --> 00:28:23.540 The word righteousness in the scriptures, the word justification, if you will, is an important 00:28:23.540 --> 00:28:23.800 word. 00:28:23.860 --> 00:28:25.340 It's used about 12 times. 00:28:26.040 --> 00:28:28.240 And yet created the, the reformation. 00:28:28.500 --> 00:28:33.200 What we need to do is to pay attention to what the Bible means by these words and not suppress 00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:34.920 them because it's important. 00:28:35.040 --> 00:28:35.960 They need to define us. 00:28:36.040 --> 00:28:38.780 We need to allow ourselves to be impacted by them. 00:28:38.860 --> 00:28:40.220 That's what revelation is about. 00:28:40.700 --> 00:28:45.600 And one of the things we have to do is open our minds and hearts to receive again what Jesus 00:28:45.600 --> 00:28:46.540 gave in the ascension. 00:28:46.780 --> 00:28:50.800 So it's, there's a big learning, unlearning journey and a big learning journey for us 00:28:50.800 --> 00:28:50.940 here. 00:28:52.700 --> 00:28:53.420 It's beautiful. 00:28:53.420 --> 00:29:00.140 So Mestala, um, who's actually in Nigeria, um, is, uh, is asking a question in chat. 00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:06.840 How do you implement APEST in a, in a new church plant, either a digital or a physical, like, 00:29:06.920 --> 00:29:10.100 you know, there's, there's a lot of new exposure here to APEST. 00:29:10.320 --> 00:29:13.240 So, um, where, where do we even get started in this? 00:29:13.380 --> 00:29:14.580 Walk me through a little bit, Alan. 00:29:15.240 --> 00:29:21.320 Well, um, guys, I think it's really important, again, given the historical neglect of the 00:29:21.320 --> 00:29:27.380 typology, uh, it's kind of very important that we get clarity in our own minds, at least. 00:29:27.920 --> 00:29:31.860 And I think in the communities that we lead are what, what the Bible's using. 00:29:32.140 --> 00:29:33.580 So take, just slow down. 00:29:33.780 --> 00:29:37.360 One of the things, a mistake people make immediately, I was worried, they, they're buying it because 00:29:37.360 --> 00:29:39.980 they see the power of it and it's very powerful. 00:29:40.080 --> 00:29:41.900 It changes everything and we can get to that. 00:29:42.320 --> 00:29:43.160 Everything is touched. 00:29:43.160 --> 00:29:46.080 All the aspects of ministry are dealt with in the APEST model. 00:29:46.380 --> 00:29:46.720 Everything. 00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:47.900 Nothing's left out. 00:29:48.420 --> 00:29:49.520 So there's power in it. 00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:57.000 The problem is, um, with the, most pastors rush to doing a sermon series and that is the 00:29:57.000 --> 00:30:01.340 biggest mistake you can ever do because you're going to inoculate the people. 00:30:02.380 --> 00:30:05.860 Um, so I would say, take your time and deal with definitions. 00:30:06.540 --> 00:30:11.540 Everyone pick up a Bible, maybe read some books, compare notes, come to clarity. 00:30:11.540 --> 00:30:14.680 When you use the word apostle, this is what we mean by it. 00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:18.520 And I would say, uh, and the church plant, very important up front. 00:30:18.520 --> 00:30:22.700 I would base it right in the beginning so you don't have to factor it in later on. 00:30:22.820 --> 00:30:26.500 And it's already there in, in the scriptures given to us in the Ascension, so we should. 00:30:27.240 --> 00:30:28.940 I would, I would work hard at definition. 00:30:29.300 --> 00:30:35.060 Then at the leadership team level, I'd suggest try to learn to function in the five-fold dynamic. 00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:37.160 And there are tools and resources. 00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:43.980 I write quite a few of them in, in, uh, 5Q and there's a whole, uh, on-site thing where 00:30:43.980 --> 00:30:45.860 there's tons of training and all that stuff there. 00:30:46.520 --> 00:30:51.000 Um, I would say, get used to it and then begin to take it out into the broader church. 00:30:51.120 --> 00:30:52.040 Don't rush at this. 00:30:52.540 --> 00:30:54.520 That would be, in my opinion, a mistake. 00:30:55.440 --> 00:31:00.380 Um, I would say, if God's waited 2,000 years for us to catch up on, on what was really given 00:31:00.380 --> 00:31:02.860 2,000 years ago, I think he can wait another year. 00:31:03.560 --> 00:31:04.540 So take another year. 00:31:05.340 --> 00:31:05.960 That's all right. 00:31:06.100 --> 00:31:07.040 But get this right. 00:31:07.160 --> 00:31:12.320 Everything changes because it goes to the design of the church and its capacity to create impact. 00:31:13.400 --> 00:31:15.520 Again, sorry about my long answer again, brother. 00:31:16.520 --> 00:31:17.240 No, beautiful. 00:31:17.640 --> 00:31:20.400 Um, I'm willing to bet something, Alan Hirsch. 00:31:20.640 --> 00:31:26.280 Um, and the reason why Joey not being, by being teacher primary upfront is that, you know, 00:31:26.300 --> 00:31:31.060 you're talking to a bunch of innovative guys and gals who are doing digital ministry. 00:31:31.460 --> 00:31:39.660 Um, and it really feels like we are, um, like a trending apostolic, um, where we're kind 00:31:39.660 --> 00:31:42.380 of leaning more and more that way. 00:31:42.380 --> 00:31:47.920 I actually, I don't know a lot of digital planters that are not, I'm talking the lead 00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:51.120 people that are not apostolic. 00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:53.600 Like, and so is that, is that a trend that makes sense? 00:31:54.060 --> 00:31:58.280 Um, and a follow-up question is how do we even like counterbalance us? 00:31:58.280 --> 00:32:03.560 Because I'm seeing like shepherding and teaching is a weakness when surrounded by a bunch of 00:32:03.560 --> 00:32:04.160 apostolic. 00:32:04.300 --> 00:32:08.260 And I, you know, I've, I actually, you know, I've joked that, um, um, I'm an a-hole all 00:32:08.260 --> 00:32:08.720 the time. 00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:12.440 And so sometimes like I need to keep myself in check and that shepherding and teaching 00:32:12.440 --> 00:32:14.440 is a known weakness of, of mine. 00:32:14.440 --> 00:32:17.840 And so like, how do we counterbalance that even of ourselves? 00:32:18.460 --> 00:32:19.580 Yeah, good question, brother. 00:32:19.780 --> 00:32:20.620 Uh, absolutely. 00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:27.300 I, and I'm, I'm not at all surprised, uh, that it's waiting, uh, in favor of apostolic. 00:32:27.400 --> 00:32:32.620 One, as I mentioned, this is a distinct frontier, uh, for the church in our time. 00:32:32.620 --> 00:32:33.980 No question about it. 00:32:34.360 --> 00:32:37.140 And frontiers naturally attract apostolic types. 00:32:37.260 --> 00:32:40.380 Now, even if, uh, apostolic is in your secondary, it doesn't matter. 00:32:40.460 --> 00:32:43.180 It's like left and hand, left and right hands. 00:32:43.220 --> 00:32:46.480 You can use both hands, um, quite effectively. 00:32:47.120 --> 00:32:49.780 Um, I'm not as good with my left, but I can use it. 00:32:49.780 --> 00:32:53.160 And so you'll find that even your secondaries can qualify there. 00:32:53.480 --> 00:32:59.100 Uh, in the case of Joey, um, you know, it's, you know, he can operate out and he might 00:32:59.100 --> 00:33:00.740 be quite very functional in it. 00:33:01.160 --> 00:33:04.180 His preferred role would be, you know, perhaps as a teacher. 00:33:04.180 --> 00:33:05.000 And you need that. 00:33:05.080 --> 00:33:10.140 Again, it's to provide, uh, insights, guidance, reflection, wisdom, understanding. 00:33:10.360 --> 00:33:11.620 That, or you need that. 00:33:12.040 --> 00:33:17.280 And particularly as you head out in the frontier, uh, Jeff, it's important that you, you, you 00:33:17.280 --> 00:33:19.300 get the advice from all the five functions. 00:33:19.980 --> 00:33:25.960 Um, you need shepherding function in here as well, because one of the big critiques of maybe 00:33:25.960 --> 00:33:32.620 online versions of church, uh, is that it, you know, how do we don't, you know, I don't 00:33:32.620 --> 00:33:33.200 know your name. 00:33:33.300 --> 00:33:36.620 I don't know your story, uh, how can that be community? 00:33:37.260 --> 00:33:41.260 Well, that's a question that a shepherd can maybe bring nuance to. 00:33:42.040 --> 00:33:46.280 Um, yes, can it be, but then what do you need to do to make a genuine community? 00:33:46.280 --> 00:33:48.000 Or is it just a fake version of community? 00:33:48.060 --> 00:33:53.020 Which I know people, I don't believe it is, but obviously, you know, that's a critique 00:33:53.020 --> 00:33:54.820 that's leveled, you know, in this direction. 00:33:55.460 --> 00:33:59.340 Uh, evangelist, I think is clear as another one that you've, you guys got a fair bit of 00:33:59.340 --> 00:34:00.080 energy on that. 00:34:00.080 --> 00:34:07.160 Uh, I, you know, feel it in the stoop, um, he's got a strong, he and him, very vibey kind 00:34:07.160 --> 00:34:07.400 of dude. 00:34:07.580 --> 00:34:08.940 You, you have it as well, Jeff. 00:34:09.380 --> 00:34:14.460 Uh, and that's like, again, an important function on the frontier to bringing people and aligning 00:34:14.460 --> 00:34:14.680 them. 00:34:14.880 --> 00:34:16.740 So, yeah, um, it's all good. 00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:22.420 I think it's, uh, I would say for a team, work harder at this upfront, um, integrate as quickly 00:34:22.420 --> 00:34:23.080 as you can. 00:34:23.300 --> 00:34:26.820 And, um, and, and this is what, um, Peyton would tell you as well. 00:34:26.820 --> 00:34:32.160 You know, what they do is, is do five-fold training with all the church planters right 00:34:32.160 --> 00:34:33.540 up front as quickly as possible. 00:34:35.240 --> 00:34:39.800 Let's open this up to the room while Dr. John's figuring out his, his tech issues, uh, unfortunately. 00:34:40.460 --> 00:34:45.900 Um, what other questions on APES as you're listening to some of this from, uh, from Alan 00:34:45.900 --> 00:34:51.280 and the rest of us, what, what questions are you feeling about your own ministries and, and 00:34:51.280 --> 00:34:54.020 how you're set up to lead or the people you're leading with? 00:34:55.140 --> 00:34:55.500 Yeah. 00:34:55.560 --> 00:35:00.180 So I've got about 150 questions written, uh, exaggerating a little bit, too many questions 00:35:00.180 --> 00:35:02.080 that we want to have time to, uh, obviously go through here. 00:35:02.220 --> 00:35:06.600 Uh, one of the questions I would love to ask, uh, Alan, if you don't mind, obviously in a 00:35:06.600 --> 00:35:11.360 perfect world and forming a perfect team for your church, ideally get multiple of each role. 00:35:11.460 --> 00:35:13.480 So all the bases are covered fully past your team. 00:35:13.980 --> 00:35:18.380 Obviously when starting startup ministries, digital ministries, you don't have a plethora of 00:35:18.380 --> 00:35:23.680 people at your disposal, but with your statement a few minutes ago about most of the people that 00:35:23.680 --> 00:35:29.140 are starting these new innovative ministries falling into that apostle role, what would 00:35:29.140 --> 00:35:33.340 you say would be if, if, if someone's starting out today and they're, they're starting a team 00:35:33.340 --> 00:35:38.400 or reforming a team and they feel that apostle role, and maybe they're looking to get a second 00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:43.380 and third person on their team, what would you say are maybe certain roles that they feel 00:35:43.380 --> 00:35:47.340 they should look for to best compliment their apostle role when first starting? 00:35:48.380 --> 00:35:54.560 Right. So, um, uh, another good question again, assuming you, you, uh, you, you can't get all 00:35:54.560 --> 00:36:00.180 five. Let me come back at that. Uh, so it's just, you, you, you remind me if I don't answer that 00:36:00.180 --> 00:36:06.240 question, but I think the, it's important to, to state this because this is a game changer how we 00:36:06.240 --> 00:36:12.760 understand, uh, fivefold is that it's, it's not just a leadership function. I think it's a mistake 00:36:12.760 --> 00:36:18.640 to think of it simply as leadership. Well, one, the Ephesians four doesn't use the language of 00:36:18.640 --> 00:36:23.160 leadership. It uses the language of equip, but actually it's a, one of the translations of the 00:36:23.160 --> 00:36:30.720 word, uh, katatismo. That word can also equally be translated to mend or to heal or to restore 00:36:30.720 --> 00:36:36.960 or to rebuild. Um, and why I say that we, when the disciples were mending their nets, it's the same 00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:44.680 word. Um, so don't think of the word equip as simply a leadership function. Uh, yes, it is that, 00:36:44.820 --> 00:36:49.320 but it's much more. It's a poetry. Biblical words got a lot more meaning than that. So that's one 00:36:49.320 --> 00:36:55.960 thing. Um, and here's the second thing, and this is important. When Paul writes the letter of 00:36:55.960 --> 00:37:01.120 Ephesians, it's not, it's what we call a general letter. It's not a corrective letter. And he's 00:37:01.120 --> 00:37:05.240 writing it to a young church. He planted the church. It's probably about two, three years later. 00:37:05.600 --> 00:37:10.940 So they're baby Christians largely. And he's addressing issues in the church. But you have 00:37:10.940 --> 00:37:15.640 to ask the question, who's in the room? Who's listening to this? One, it's a slave that's reading 00:37:15.640 --> 00:37:21.800 it out, Onesimus, which is interesting in itself. And he says to each one of us, verse seven in 00:37:21.800 --> 00:37:28.360 Ephesians four, seven, each one of us, grace has been given as Christ as a portion to. Well, 00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:35.220 okay. So what does that mean? Everyone in the room. Okay. It's not a seminary. It's not a seminary. 00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:40.420 It's not a group of leaders like us gathering together. It's a group of God's people. And this 00:37:40.420 --> 00:37:47.840 is a breakthrough idea. It's already given to the whole body of Christ, not just to leaders. 00:37:48.240 --> 00:37:54.500 So it's first and foremost, what I call your calling or general APIS. Everyone's got it. 00:37:54.600 --> 00:38:00.900 Everyone in the room is in the APIS profile. Now they might not be developed. And I've done 00:38:00.900 --> 00:38:05.620 this in churches, you know, large churches with thousands in them, get them voting where 00:38:05.620 --> 00:38:12.420 they are. It's amazing how people self-identify. Now, is leadership there? Leadership is implied 00:38:12.420 --> 00:38:17.800 in ministry, but ministry is given to all of God's people. And all I'm saying, friend, is that 00:38:17.800 --> 00:38:22.260 this is already given to you. If you've got a group of 10 people in the room, I promise 00:38:22.260 --> 00:38:26.180 you, you've got all that you need. Everything you need to get the job done is already there. 00:38:26.380 --> 00:38:31.740 It's just undeveloped because you haven't named it and developed it. It's a breakthrough idea. 00:38:32.620 --> 00:38:37.800 So don't think just leadership. That's a mistake again. It's going to get you into all kinds 00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:42.140 of trouble because again, you know, the apostle, you know, you're going to play into that role 00:38:42.140 --> 00:38:46.180 that it's all about leadership. Someone's going to say that you're my bitch and I'm going to 00:38:46.180 --> 00:38:51.080 come, you know, you're going to claim you, you know, and you've got hierarchical understandings 00:38:51.080 --> 00:38:56.820 coming. Don't go there. Start with ministry. And that, but all ministers, some of us can 00:38:56.820 --> 00:39:01.420 be leaders and that you have a pathway to develop leaders. So that's the one, one thing I would 00:39:01.420 --> 00:39:05.100 say. However, if there's only, you know, a few of you in the room and you want to say 00:39:05.100 --> 00:39:10.520 you want to build your team, I would say if you're on a frontier of sorts, you want as much 00:39:10.520 --> 00:39:16.700 as you can apostolic. You've already mentioned that. I would say prophetic's important because 00:39:16.700 --> 00:39:22.160 it's going to guide you. That's why the apostles and prophets all the way through the book of Acts, 00:39:22.340 --> 00:39:27.480 there's a, you know, some sort of relationship there. They guide the apostolic. Otherwise, 00:39:27.620 --> 00:39:30.940 apostolic on their own, you're going to make a lot of mistakes and you're going to hurt a lot of 00:39:30.940 --> 00:39:36.640 people. So you need to pay attention. Don't go too fast. Pay attention, pay attention to God, 00:39:36.640 --> 00:39:40.780 right? That's one. It's a prophet. And making sure you're aligning with God and not just, 00:39:41.180 --> 00:39:47.320 it's not just 10 ideas before breakfast, right? Which is what apostles can do. But the second 00:39:47.320 --> 00:39:51.780 thing I would say, evangelist, you need people who, good news people who can invite people into the 00:39:51.780 --> 00:39:57.620 story. I think if you have a minimal group, I would choose that. But here's the thing, you're going to 00:39:57.620 --> 00:40:03.060 need, if you're going to create a church, you're going to need the shepherd to create a human community 00:40:03.060 --> 00:40:07.080 that flourishes and doesn't abuse people. And you're going to need teachers to create wisdom. 00:40:07.960 --> 00:40:13.540 Don't leave them out of the equation. You need them. But hey, they're already given to you. 00:40:14.660 --> 00:40:19.520 So you just have to acknowledge what's there and develop it. And so this is the beautiful thing. 00:40:19.580 --> 00:40:20.720 It's already been given to you. 00:40:21.300 --> 00:40:27.720 I just want to ask a quick question. I got a Bible study at the bar. It started at seven o'clock. 00:40:27.820 --> 00:40:32.340 I had somebody else talk for me so I can be part of it. But I want to ask a question before I go. 00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:46.600 How do you instruct pastors when they see their profile to the APAS and how do you instruct them 00:40:46.600 --> 00:40:53.920 pastors when they see them to reconcile with the business side of the church, right? Like managing 00:40:53.920 --> 00:41:05.500 the finances or a new building or growth or, you know, capital campaign or HR situations? And 00:41:05.500 --> 00:41:13.860 how is that this process of assessment allows 00:41:13.860 --> 00:41:22.540 instruct pastors to manage both, you know, the church and the not-for-profit together? Because 00:41:22.540 --> 00:41:28.120 that's the structure demands that. Not because most pastors, I'm just guessing, most pastors probably 00:41:28.120 --> 00:41:36.200 don't want that role. But that comes with a package in a current model. So why would you say to that? 00:41:36.980 --> 00:41:41.080 Is that, Jeff, is it aimed at me? Sorry, Joe, aimed at me. 00:41:41.080 --> 00:41:47.120 Jeff, that's not aimed at me. I can guarantee that. So, yeah, the heart of this, Alan, is, you know, 00:41:47.140 --> 00:41:52.420 how do pastors, you know, where does the business aspect fit into APAS? How do you recommend, 00:41:52.640 --> 00:41:57.420 you know, churches handle this situation? Because pastors are not equipped to handle those decisions. 00:41:57.420 --> 00:42:03.280 And here's the thing. Again, going back to the biblical language itself in Ephesians 4, 00:42:03.880 --> 00:42:08.920 strive for the callings you have received. That word is repeated twice. The callings are vocation. Why? 00:42:09.120 --> 00:42:12.960 I think it has to do with our distinctive contribution that we bring to the world. 00:42:14.060 --> 00:42:20.760 And that's what APAS deals with. It's vocational. So that's one thing is that that's why I think, 00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:25.420 you know, getting in touch with it is what, this is what's going to motivate and drive you. And this is 00:42:25.420 --> 00:42:32.140 your purpose in the world, your distinctive contribution. And I think we see the other 00:42:32.140 --> 00:42:38.800 things as functions of organization. I think they're important, obviously. But first, the calling 00:42:38.800 --> 00:42:45.600 thing is the essential thing. Then when you put it in terms of what these do, I would argue that 00:42:45.600 --> 00:42:50.060 when you look at it in terms of, and by the way, there's what we've developed along with some very 00:42:50.060 --> 00:42:58.860 creative business people, a tool that helps people in the marketplace integrate 5Q dynamic. It's called 00:42:58.860 --> 00:43:05.520 impact. I'll type it in when I've got some time. Brilliant test. Spent half a million dollars on the 00:43:05.520 --> 00:43:11.980 thing way beyond my capacities. But taking 5Q dynamic in creating beautiful profiles, very, 00:43:11.980 --> 00:43:19.840 very good tool for marketplace. But when you look at like these functions in terms of normal 00:43:19.840 --> 00:43:25.700 organization, you say, well, apostolic is really your pioneering function, or it's your entrepreneurship, 00:43:25.700 --> 00:43:35.700 your capacity to innovate new forms, to push to a new boundary. It's your R&D department, if you will, 00:43:36.740 --> 00:43:41.540 your experimental side. And also, you know, you need to have, you know, to push out to frontiers, 00:43:41.540 --> 00:43:45.300 because you can't over rely on what you currently got. Every organization needs that, friends. 00:43:45.300 --> 00:43:52.660 I would argue that it's a function of organization, you need it. The prophetic is the aligning function, 00:43:53.460 --> 00:43:59.060 to keep you aligned to the purpose of the organization. And also, you know, some of the ethics 00:43:59.060 --> 00:44:03.440 and ethical kind of issues that you're going to be facing, they can call you on that kind of stuff, 00:44:03.440 --> 00:44:09.300 which is important, because that's a key aspect of it. The evangelist is kind of your inbuilt 00:44:09.300 --> 00:44:14.980 marketing department. You know, everyone with an Apple Mac is an evangelist, right? 00:44:15.460 --> 00:44:19.300 It's good news. Why wouldn't you buy in on it, right? Well, of course, they call these 00:44:20.340 --> 00:44:25.780 brand evangelists. Every organization needs a marketing department. If you don't have it, 00:44:25.780 --> 00:44:28.660 you're not going to go anyway. Well, it depends what kind of organization you are. 00:44:28.660 --> 00:44:34.500 But HR really is the shepherd and teacher function. If you combine the two, you get an HR function. 00:44:35.380 --> 00:44:41.220 Shepherding is onboarding, helping people feel they flourish in a community, they're learning, 00:44:41.220 --> 00:44:49.700 they're growing. Teaching is basically teaching procedure and, you know, the ideas that drive the 00:44:49.700 --> 00:44:54.900 organization and keep it with integrity. So you actually find that the five-fold contains a fair 00:44:54.900 --> 00:44:59.700 bit of, in fact, I would argue, all the essential functions of any organization. 00:45:01.300 --> 00:45:07.780 That's the one, again, one way of saying these properly understood will actually provide all these things 00:45:07.780 --> 00:45:16.740 for you. The other side of this is, I think it's important to see this in the church and say, 00:45:16.740 --> 00:45:22.340 people say, how do we correspond this to elders or deacons, depending on your tradition? 00:45:23.460 --> 00:45:28.980 And I'll say, I think that's referring to leadership, right? So I would say, keep them if you want to. 00:45:28.980 --> 00:45:34.900 But see this, if you've got to watch me on this, but see this as a kind of a vertical dynamic. It's 00:45:34.900 --> 00:45:42.580 your leadership structure. What APIS is, is your ministry structure goes across it. Where they intersect, 00:45:43.460 --> 00:45:48.340 you'll find that you operate within a five-fold dynamic. So you can bring all the other functions 00:45:48.340 --> 00:45:54.020 in, but you must resolve them from within a five-fold frame. And I would argue, once you do that, 00:45:54.020 --> 00:45:58.420 you're bringing all the intelligence of the church to bear on all the issues, including money 00:45:58.420 --> 00:46:03.780 and running things, managing the organization too. I don't know if that made any sense. I usually 00:46:03.780 --> 00:46:07.940 need a whiteboard. I don't have one. And that's... 00:46:12.340 --> 00:46:14.100 That's beautiful. Joey, did you have a follow-up? 00:46:14.100 --> 00:46:15.620 Yeah, that's great. Anything else from you before you go? 00:46:17.700 --> 00:46:21.620 No, that was great. And that's, I think, that's what makes the tool so, 00:46:23.220 --> 00:46:30.100 the assessment so helpful. I think that, I think that's missing, right? I mean, 00:46:30.100 --> 00:46:34.580 we look at the structure of the church and it's missing that connection. Because sometimes the 00:46:34.580 --> 00:46:42.820 business is so overwhelming that overshadows the vocational side of it. And the mission is, 00:46:42.820 --> 00:46:47.460 the mission is the one that's being forgotten. We just forgot the mission, 00:46:47.460 --> 00:46:52.020 because we've got to run the business. And I think if we can bring that together, 00:46:52.020 --> 00:46:56.820 we can actually make the business be a force behind it. 00:46:56.820 --> 00:46:58.100 It's got to serve the mission, right? 00:46:58.100 --> 00:46:59.780 Right. That can push the mission. 00:46:59.780 --> 00:47:04.100 It serves the mission. Otherwise, you end up as an institutional or transactional 00:47:04.100 --> 00:47:07.860 form of leadership where you're paying people to do a job. That can do some stuff, 00:47:07.860 --> 00:47:13.380 but in the end it doesn't play well in the church, you know, where we're all kind of equal agents of God's 00:47:13.380 --> 00:47:13.780 people. 00:47:18.340 --> 00:47:24.260 So, Suzy, Stunami, people who don't have real names, any questions from you for Alan Hirsch? 00:47:25.300 --> 00:47:32.180 Yeah, I've got two. So, again, the episode that Jeff and I did with Peyton Jones, which kind of 00:47:32.900 --> 00:47:39.540 unboxed even just this opportunity for us tonight, Peyton was talking about how he feels that we are 00:47:39.540 --> 00:47:46.500 entering into a new church season that is more focused on the church being spearheaded by the 00:47:46.500 --> 00:47:52.660 apes rather than the shepherds' teachers. So, the first question that I have really revolves around 00:47:52.660 --> 00:47:56.980 that. It's like, is that kind of what you're seeing as well? Because for me, it feels that way. 00:47:56.980 --> 00:48:03.540 Like, a lot of people that we have on this podcast, this call right now, are more apostolic 00:48:04.580 --> 00:48:10.580 in their giftings than it seems in teaching or shepherding. And obviously, Joey has that teaching 00:48:10.580 --> 00:48:14.980 one in there, and I don't know that that surprised me too much, but would you agree with that, that 00:48:14.980 --> 00:48:20.740 we're moving into a season that the church is kind of being moved and led more by those 00:48:21.780 --> 00:48:24.580 apostles and prophets and evangelists right now? 00:48:25.540 --> 00:48:31.780 I think there's a truth to that. Yes, I would say we are in a season of correcting 00:48:33.060 --> 00:48:39.300 problematics in our kind of a legacy system. And I think that's really happening and it's a very 00:48:39.300 --> 00:48:46.420 exciting part of the conversation is that we're having whole denominations take these things seriously 00:48:46.420 --> 00:48:55.140 now. At last. But yes. So, yes, there's a correction needed because much of the way we 00:48:55.140 --> 00:48:59.540 design the church up to this point has been designed around, actually, I've got to say, 00:48:59.540 --> 00:49:05.460 it's not really caring. We're not, hey, no offence, friends, but we're not known to be the most 00:49:05.460 --> 00:49:10.260 caring people in the world. So I don't know about our pastoral capacities. We can be a lot more caring. 00:49:10.820 --> 00:49:16.100 But I think it's largely the legacy of the heritage church is built on teaching. 00:49:16.660 --> 00:49:22.100 That's about just what it's all about pulpit and Bible study and all that. So it's a teacher's function. 00:49:22.100 --> 00:49:29.060 It's one of the functions. But once you overdevelop it, you become, you know, it changes the equation. It's 00:49:29.060 --> 00:49:34.260 completely overdeveloped. It's like you've got one strong arm here and everything else is like 00:49:34.260 --> 00:49:39.780 weak, you know. And so we need to integrate these functions. And the church is, I think, 00:49:39.780 --> 00:49:44.740 because of our missional scenario, our missional context is demanding that we actually rediscover 00:49:45.300 --> 00:49:50.740 the more missionary, missional functions of the church, which is A, P, and E. 00:49:53.300 --> 00:49:57.060 So if I can piggyback off of that question, because I feel like that you just, 00:49:58.100 --> 00:50:05.460 I can almost guarantee that you just unlocked an aha moment for a lot of people listening. Because if the 00:50:05.460 --> 00:50:10.980 church for the longest time has been sitting more under this being led by teachers, then there's a 00:50:10.980 --> 00:50:18.740 lot of really theologically, uh, knowledged fat people who've been sitting there for a long time 00:50:18.740 --> 00:50:23.620 with a lot of really good information, but not really being told what to do with it. So is that 00:50:23.620 --> 00:50:30.500 kind of like that catalytic force that's leading to the, okay, I, God's gifted me as an apostle. God's 00:50:30.500 --> 00:50:34.820 gifted me as an evangelist. Now it's time to get going and do something with what I've been taught. 00:50:35.460 --> 00:50:40.740 Absolutely. And what, what the exciting thing about this is when not ever to see it as just as one 00:50:40.740 --> 00:50:47.060 or two or three or fourfolds, at least fivefold form, because what you don't want also, uh, 00:50:47.060 --> 00:50:52.100 is like an evangelist completely dominating the thing. So what happens there is that's called church 00:50:52.100 --> 00:50:56.180 growth. So what happens with evangelists is recruit, recruit, recruit, right? So what you 00:50:56.180 --> 00:51:00.980 happen is bringing people in. It's attractional, come to us, we're going to, you know, do this thing, 00:51:00.980 --> 00:51:05.460 you're going to, and then I don't know what to do with them. Hey, just sit there and let's, 00:51:05.460 --> 00:51:10.660 let's run a meeting. And what you ended up with the mega church, that's an overdeveloped evangelistic 00:51:10.660 --> 00:51:16.180 function. What you don't want is any overdeveloped, any of the functions you need to come to balancing 00:51:16.180 --> 00:51:22.900 agency of all the five functions to balance each other out and make sense of each other. So it's 00:51:22.900 --> 00:51:28.100 very important, again, to exercise a discipline. While you're the corrective right now, Stu, 00:51:28.100 --> 00:51:36.500 definitely, um, is to integrate the A, P, and E. E's in the game for the last 40 years, at least. But 00:51:37.140 --> 00:51:43.140 A and P really are needed to be integrated properly. A particularly, because we have prophetic movements, 00:51:43.140 --> 00:51:47.940 self and social justice or prayer movements. We don't have enough apostolic, and our understanding 00:51:47.940 --> 00:51:52.580 of the apostolic is pretty bad. So we need to kind of integrate that, and there's a learning 00:51:52.580 --> 00:51:58.260 moment for us there to integrate that. But never think of it just as one or two or three-fold. Don't 00:51:58.260 --> 00:52:02.660 only think of it as leadership. Think of it as the functions of all God's people, and that 00:52:03.220 --> 00:52:06.980 whole body can develop these functions. I think that's a breakthrough kind of body. 00:52:09.940 --> 00:52:16.180 I've got a question. So, like, I scored, um, I scored, I don't know my numbers, which off the top 00:52:16.180 --> 00:52:22.740 of my head, but Apostle was ridiculously high. Everything else was low. Um, and I've seen others 00:52:22.740 --> 00:52:29.540 that, you know, the, the, it's more level, maybe one or two strengths, but it's maybe just a point 00:52:29.540 --> 00:52:34.740 or two higher. It's more consistent across as opposed to the, you know, the, the rocky valley, 00:52:34.740 --> 00:52:42.820 the sine wave. Um, is there, you said it doesn't matter. Like, do, do I interpret things differently 00:52:42.820 --> 00:52:48.980 if it's a drastic difference like mine versus a more rippling wave like, like others? How, 00:52:48.980 --> 00:52:51.300 how, how do we interpret some of those findings? 00:52:51.300 --> 00:52:59.460 So, Jeff, again, another good question, brother. Um, technically the, the test, it shouldn't matter 00:52:59.460 --> 00:53:06.740 too much the weight of score. Um, generally, unless of course you come up in your case, 00:53:06.740 --> 00:53:12.980 you're saying it's like a, you know, it's a big peak between the two. Um, uh, where it does indicate 00:53:12.980 --> 00:53:18.580 that you have strong functions, you know, in a certain area and you're weaker in certain other 00:53:18.580 --> 00:53:25.140 functions. And what that will mean to you, bro, is that you have to, um, um, recognize that that 00:53:25.140 --> 00:53:30.260 means that if you want to have a full five-fold impact, you need to have people on team or people 00:53:30.260 --> 00:53:36.420 in, in your circle that counterbalance you, or you have other voices there from the five-fold 00:53:36.420 --> 00:53:43.220 that can, can perhaps add value to you. Uh, if, if you're very flatlining, like some people are, 00:53:43.220 --> 00:53:48.740 it means you're either very mature or, you know, you lack a distinctive. I don't think that's a 00:53:48.740 --> 00:53:53.060 terrible thing if you, but you can always get better at all of them. If you think about Jesus 00:53:53.060 --> 00:54:00.340 as the perfect five-fold, he is perfect, 10 out of 10 on all school, right? You know, that's pretty 00:54:00.340 --> 00:54:06.660 good. Um, most of us don't have that. And most of us are strong at one, two, three. I would argue 00:54:06.660 --> 00:54:11.620 your top three, your strong ones, the other two, your weakest ones. Here's the deal. You can get, 00:54:11.620 --> 00:54:16.340 don't do a strength finder's mistake on this. Don't just go with your strengths, Jeff. 00:54:17.220 --> 00:54:22.980 Um, but you can actually get better. If you want to become more like Jesus as the perfect five-fold, 00:54:22.980 --> 00:54:28.420 you can get better at the other ones too. So perhaps in the second half of life, 00:54:28.420 --> 00:54:32.340 you can start integrating your weakest. What do you suck at, brother? What's your, 00:54:32.340 --> 00:54:35.300 what's the ones you suck at of all the five-fold? 00:54:37.300 --> 00:54:43.940 Um, yeah. So probably, uh, shepherding is, is going to be low on that. Um, teaching is going 00:54:43.940 --> 00:54:49.620 to be low on that. Yeah. Can you do those things? Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. I had, I had a midlife crisis, 00:54:49.620 --> 00:55:00.180 um, that let me just 30 seconds. I actually was on a church staff that 95% of senior leadership and 00:55:00.180 --> 00:55:07.460 campus pastors and everybody were, were apostles. And like, that was a giant wake up call for me 00:55:07.460 --> 00:55:15.620 because I saw what a nightmare, all apostles without a balance was. And, and I, I started, 00:55:15.620 --> 00:55:20.580 can we get somebody to actually care about an individual? I mean, we will, we all, all of us 00:55:20.580 --> 00:55:25.060 want to go change the world, but none of us actually want to invest time in an individual. We're a fricking 00:55:25.060 --> 00:55:32.980 church. And, um, and so it just, it really showed me honestly in real time, my weaknesses and, uh, 00:55:32.980 --> 00:55:39.300 brought that about now. I feel like my personality is still incredibly strong, uh, towards the apostle, 00:55:39.300 --> 00:55:43.700 but I always tell people like I'm self-aware. I know I'm a jerk. Uh, but I, that doesn't mean 00:55:43.700 --> 00:55:47.700 I've stopped being a jerk. I just am sensitive to my, my overbearing. 00:55:47.700 --> 00:55:52.420 Good. That's exactly, I think where you, and you can get better at those things. Now I'm saying you 00:55:52.420 --> 00:55:57.700 will ever become a pastor. You probably won't, but you can get more caring and you should, um, 00:55:57.700 --> 00:56:03.700 you shouldn't suck. Uh, you shouldn't be a jerk, you know, entirely. So I think it's just like, 00:56:03.700 --> 00:56:09.380 you become more like Jesus. You can see it as an index of Jesus, uh, as a perfect five. If I want to 00:56:09.380 --> 00:56:14.660 become more Christ-like, I can't become Christ-like by just double down, double downing on what I've 00:56:14.660 --> 00:56:21.060 already got. It's a double apostle. You can, you likely to, if you just focus on one, become a 00:56:21.060 --> 00:56:25.620 jerk. What you need to do is to become more like Jesus to integrate the ones as well. They're there 00:56:25.620 --> 00:56:30.420 because they're in Jesus. Interesting. And you can't mock them. Yeah. Can't knock them. Don't mock them. 00:56:30.420 --> 00:56:34.820 It's more about balancing it all together, not leaning into your strengths, operating. 00:56:34.820 --> 00:56:39.460 All five are necessary. That's, that's, that's intriguing. Um, 00:56:39.460 --> 00:56:45.860 Hey, uh, Susie, tsunami in any other question or thoughts on, on a pest here. 00:56:45.860 --> 00:56:50.500 Yeah, I would, uh, I would love to hear, uh, Alan's thoughts on a specific topic. 00:56:50.500 --> 00:56:55.060 I think we, you and Dr. John, I both mentioned, I think for me, when I, when I hear a lot of this 00:56:55.060 --> 00:57:00.180 a pest and kind of discovering your role, I think the word freedom comes to mind to kind of figure out 00:57:00.180 --> 00:57:05.380 who you are and who you're not and how it's okay to not be something. But I do think, Alan, 00:57:05.380 --> 00:57:10.820 like you had mentioned earlier that the word pastor more so meaning the shepherd side of thing 00:57:10.820 --> 00:57:16.340 just kind of gets assigned to almost all people that are, are in leadership at a church. 00:57:16.900 --> 00:57:22.180 And I, I know I could speak from personal experience. I can feel almost that sense of pressure 00:57:23.060 --> 00:57:28.900 that you're supposed to fulfill that more shepherd type role, spending a significant amount of your 00:57:28.900 --> 00:57:33.860 time in these one-on-one meetings, praying, caring for people. And, uh, and I do, I love people 00:57:33.860 --> 00:57:41.140 deeply, uh, but I find myself struggling with having such a deep, deep rooted strength in the 00:57:41.140 --> 00:57:45.300 apostolic and the teaching role. And the reality is we all just have a finite amount of hours in the 00:57:45.300 --> 00:57:50.180 day. When I sit down and sometimes when I sit down and pray, I go to pray for an individual 00:57:50.180 --> 00:57:55.140 and I feel the Holy spirit filling my mind with vision. And I, and I feel this, this, this almost 00:57:55.140 --> 00:57:59.780 guilt of like, I'm supposed to be focusing on an individual, but God is speaking to me more in an 00:57:59.780 --> 00:58:05.540 apostolic role. And when I hear you kind of describing how really the five-fold ministry 00:58:05.540 --> 00:58:10.580 is enough for the leadership, it's for the whole body. And it's, it's so enlightening to hear that 00:58:10.580 --> 00:58:16.180 because over the past year, I've been really trying to put thought to God, how do we equip the whole 00:58:16.180 --> 00:58:25.540 body to really lead and shepherd? But I'm getting to my question. I'm beginning to learn that really, 00:58:25.540 --> 00:58:30.260 even the shepherding, the more pastoral care type role, sitting down, praying with people, caring for 00:58:30.260 --> 00:58:35.300 them. There are so many people within the body don't have a title who are really gifted in that area, 00:58:35.300 --> 00:58:42.180 but there's this pressure from the Christianity as a whole, that that type of stuff should be happening 00:58:42.180 --> 00:58:48.500 from the pastor, the lead pastors, the people in those roles. How would you advise someone in my position 00:58:48.500 --> 00:58:55.140 to really go about helping equip and teach the church that that idea of shepherding, the more caring side 00:58:55.940 --> 00:59:01.460 can be happening from people in the church? And how would you go about really, I guess, starting that to be 00:59:01.460 --> 00:59:06.420 more present in your church where shepherding can happen peer to peer rather than leader to congregant? 00:59:09.220 --> 00:59:16.180 Well, my answer to that, and Dr. John might have a different one, but I think you've got to 00:59:18.500 --> 00:59:24.340 the first thing I think is naming that these things actually belong within the body. By the way, you can 00:59:24.340 --> 00:59:29.940 do, easily do exercises in this. You can say just to a group of people at the church, say, "Who here likes to 00:59:29.940 --> 00:59:34.340 pioneer, try new things, innovate?" You know, you might not be even good at it, but can you do it? 00:59:35.300 --> 00:59:40.820 People will put their hands up. Prophetic. You're sensitive to God, you know, you hear it, but you're not 00:59:40.820 --> 00:59:46.180 sure sometimes if you're hearing right, but your issues of social justice is kind of issues to you. 00:59:46.180 --> 00:59:51.940 Hands up. People put their hands up. Evangelists, you know, if you kind of like to share faith, 00:59:51.940 --> 00:59:56.260 you might not even feel that good at it and confident, and you get my point. You can go all 00:59:56.260 --> 01:00:01.140 the way through. Everyone will vote in on that. The shepherds, people who can care for people, 01:00:01.140 --> 01:00:04.900 someone who likes to care for people. Are there people in the church here that like that? 01:00:05.300 --> 01:00:10.420 Hands up. And you'll find that actually people will self-identify if you give proper definitions 01:00:10.420 --> 01:00:16.660 and give space. I think the challenge at that point is then to have pathways to develop them into 01:00:16.660 --> 01:00:21.220 becoming better. You don't want immature versions of these around, particularly of the first three. 01:00:23.060 --> 01:00:27.700 They can be very damaging. So you want maturity, but you've got to take charge of that. You've got to 01:00:27.700 --> 01:00:34.100 develop a pathway, a pipeline, if you will, within the church itself, or in the organization to develop 01:00:34.100 --> 01:00:41.380 these things. Another one is to simply have tools by which people can learn to exercise. So for instance, 01:00:41.380 --> 01:00:48.500 this is what we can do. And this is one of the tools I recommend in 5Q. It's very easy. The idea of 01:00:48.500 --> 01:00:55.780 thinking hats. So in other words, it's a game you play. Everyone, we're just going to play this game. 01:00:55.780 --> 01:00:59.860 We're going to put certain hats on. When you've got the hat on, you've got to think through the lens of 01:00:59.860 --> 01:01:05.380 that hat or shut up. That's your deal, okay? So we're going to put APIS hats on. So, okay, we're 01:01:05.380 --> 01:01:10.100 going to start. You can start anywhere you want, but you might start with, say, let's just go with APIS. 01:01:10.100 --> 01:01:17.540 Okay, everyone, it doesn't mean you're an apostle, but everyone put the apostolic hat on. Now, we've 01:01:17.540 --> 01:01:22.980 got the apostolic hat on. We look at the problem that we've defined through the lens of the apostle. 01:01:22.980 --> 01:01:28.820 All of us have got to exercise that function. And so you, you know, and you begin to problem solve. 01:01:28.820 --> 01:01:34.180 You can't bring other insights here. Don't worry about it. You'll get there. Okay, at a certain 01:01:34.180 --> 01:01:38.740 point, someone leading it say, okay, now we're going to switch out, going to put a prophetic hat on. 01:01:39.300 --> 01:01:43.460 Everyone put the prophet hat on. Now we think like prophets. So the prophets in the room feel more 01:01:43.460 --> 01:01:48.740 comfortable, but the ones who are not have to learn to think through the lens of the prophet. Then you 01:01:48.740 --> 01:01:51.700 put evangelistic, how are we going to get this out? How are we going to get people to buy in? 01:01:51.700 --> 01:01:58.820 How do you, you know, you can see how this works, right? And so you can simply just define a problem 01:01:58.820 --> 01:02:05.300 or a situation in the middle and then work around it. And at this point, you don't even have to use 01:02:05.300 --> 01:02:12.260 names, titles. And in fact, I would be careful of titles, but you just have to do the function and 01:02:12.260 --> 01:02:18.260 people will learn what these functions actually operate like. So that's one of the tools, but there are 01:02:18.260 --> 01:02:20.500 many others you can, you can develop as well. 01:02:24.260 --> 01:02:25.380 There's a, a, a, 01:02:25.380 --> 01:02:31.300 Matt Penny in chat has a question, Alan, it's rather long and thought out, but the, 01:02:31.300 --> 01:02:37.460 uh, the meat of, of what he's asking is like, how do we counterbalance the, 01:02:37.460 --> 01:02:44.580 the shadow side of, of our, our strengths? Um, you know, I, I think I, we talked a little bit at the 01:02:44.580 --> 01:02:49.460 the personal level, operating at the weaknesses, but even organizationally, if I would love for you 01:02:49.460 --> 01:02:55.700 maybe to speak to that a little bit, uh, counterbalancing the, the, the shadow sides of, of a pest. 01:02:55.700 --> 01:03:01.460 Well, um, years are going to be really hard because I think I need almost a whiteboard to 01:03:01.460 --> 01:03:07.060 really answer that well. So I'm going to just, um, I hope I don't botch this. Okay. You just 01:03:07.060 --> 01:03:13.460 push back on me if you feel I haven't answered this, but, um, um, what you can use here is like, 01:03:13.460 --> 01:03:21.620 um, um, um, use the fivefold as the, as, as a sense of the measures and marks within the church, 01:03:21.620 --> 01:03:27.300 right? So, um, for instance, every church, and I would say this is a good way of playing this out. 01:03:27.300 --> 01:03:33.220 If you come from a tradition that denies apostle prophets, then what you can say to them is say, 01:03:33.220 --> 01:03:39.860 okay, um, nonetheless, every church is meant to be apostolic. Forget the words of apostles. 01:03:40.500 --> 01:03:44.580 Every church is meant to be apostolic, right? We're all sent. We're a sent people. We have a 01:03:44.580 --> 01:03:48.980 certain function in the world that only we can fulfill. Everyone's going to agree with that. We're 01:03:48.980 --> 01:03:56.180 one holy Catholic apostolic. We've been confessing this forever. So no one can deny that. So you say, 01:03:56.180 --> 01:04:02.020 yeah, okay, but some of us are called to be apostles. Um, so, but, but the function of the 01:04:02.020 --> 01:04:08.180 church is of apostolic. Um, and people say, you say, well, um, I believe the church is called to be 01:04:08.180 --> 01:04:13.300 prophetic. You can say, I don't believe in prophets. I'd say you're wrong. The Bible's full of them, but, 01:04:13.300 --> 01:04:19.300 uh, you can't tell me that the church is not meant to be a prophetic. No, you cannot. You're not allowed 01:04:19.300 --> 01:04:26.900 to do that. Right. And so, um, you know, because we call to stand for God, sometimes at the pain of 01:04:26.900 --> 01:04:32.660 death, we'll stand for, for God and, you know, for his purposes in the world. And we will sometimes cop 01:04:32.660 --> 01:04:37.780 it for that reason. We'll speak truth to power and get into trouble. But the church is, when the church 01:04:37.780 --> 01:04:44.900 doesn't do that, which is currently happening in my opinion, but nonetheless, um, we, we, we get into 01:04:44.900 --> 01:04:49.460 all kinds of trouble. Uh, every church is meant to be evangelistic. You say, well, I don't believe 01:04:49.460 --> 01:04:55.300 in evangelists. Yeah, but yeah, but every church is meant to be evangelistic, right? So, um, because 01:04:55.300 --> 01:04:59.860 we're all called to be a good news people, we're meant to, you know, extend the good news in the world. 01:04:59.860 --> 01:05:04.100 Every church is meant to be shepherding. We're meant to be a caring community. You're not 01:05:04.100 --> 01:05:10.020 in to suck at that. No one's arguing the title, so you can go there with teacher as well. We're meant 01:05:10.020 --> 01:05:15.700 to be wise people. We're meant to think through the mind of Christ and think through things with 01:05:15.700 --> 01:05:21.460 wisdom. You need the teaching function. All five are needed. So you can then, based on that, you can 01:05:21.460 --> 01:05:26.580 build out a kind of like a spidergram, okay? You can say, okay, let's look at your church. Do a 01:05:26.580 --> 01:05:31.540 spidergram with one, two, three, four, five, one, two, three, four, five, okay? And say A-P-E-E-S-D. 01:05:32.260 --> 01:05:36.500 I don't have a diagram with me, but you can play this out. Okay, so what are you strong at? 01:05:37.620 --> 01:05:41.860 And so you get people to riff on that, you know, we're strong at, well, let's, okay, 01:05:41.860 --> 01:05:48.340 let's do an exercise. The average evangelical church in America, okay? It's a very broad category. 01:05:50.740 --> 01:05:56.180 What are they strong at? I would suggest to you they're very strong at teacher. In fact, 01:05:56.180 --> 01:06:04.340 I think, you know, that's the uber-strong one. And if you, you know, Presbyterian theology, 01:06:04.340 --> 01:06:08.260 if it's Baptist, it's preaching, you know, but it's all about teaching. 01:06:10.180 --> 01:06:15.300 Second strength, you would probably say shepherding. I'd say, yeah, but it's not as strong as teacher 01:06:16.180 --> 01:06:21.060 because we're not known to be as caring as we ought to be. So I'm going to give it the second, 01:06:21.060 --> 01:06:25.860 but it's not as, you know, the other one's got five. This has got maybe two and a half out of five. 01:06:27.220 --> 01:06:32.020 Then what's the next one? I would say evangelist. Yeah, that's probably the next one. We still have 01:06:32.020 --> 01:06:37.540 a very one-dimensional understanding of evangelism, but I think it's there. So that's two and a half. 01:06:37.540 --> 01:06:43.060 Let's give it equal to the shepherding. What's the next one? Is the prophetic? Well, verily, 01:06:43.060 --> 01:06:48.020 verily, verily, we don't even believe in that stuff. So how can you even acknowledge the prophetic 01:06:48.020 --> 01:06:52.500 function if you don't acknowledge, you know, don't have the language for it? And then you verily suck 01:06:52.500 --> 01:06:58.980 at an apostle. So what you've got here is a church that's very high on teaching and doesn't have 01:06:58.980 --> 01:07:04.900 strengths in the other areas. What's the standard answer for a church? How does it resolve its problems? 01:07:04.900 --> 01:07:11.140 If you already double down on the teaching gift, what's the answer? How do you, you know, how do you 01:07:11.140 --> 01:07:16.820 improve this church? Thinking through the lens of the teacher. Well, more teaching. We're going to 01:07:16.820 --> 01:07:22.260 do a preaching series. You know, it's more that. Now, the question is, will more teaching resolve your 01:07:22.260 --> 01:07:28.900 problems? No, they won't. You're already as good as you're going to get. Double down there doesn't 01:07:28.900 --> 01:07:34.900 change anything. How do you do this? You go with your weakest points. Find the one that you suck at 01:07:34.900 --> 01:07:41.060 and develop it out. If it's prophetic, learn what it is, try and develop it, go for a year or two, 01:07:41.620 --> 01:07:47.300 upgrade it, and then you do another kind of assessment. And this is what we call a 5Q diagnostic. 01:07:47.940 --> 01:07:52.340 And it's really important to develop your fivefold functionality in the local church. Again, 01:07:54.020 --> 01:08:00.420 5Q Central is the place to go for that. Again, long answer without a link in the show. 01:08:00.980 --> 01:08:10.100 No, that's beautiful. Short answer. Hilmi wants to know what your top function of the five is. 01:08:11.060 --> 01:08:22.180 Mine is somewhat varies depending on my situation, but I like the apostolic. I have a certain version of 01:08:22.180 --> 01:08:30.260 that teacher. I love the ideas you hear that. I love sharing ideas. And the prophets. Every now and 01:08:30.260 --> 01:08:38.660 again, I get grumpy and put the boots in. And those three swim very dynamically with me. And I've had to 01:08:38.660 --> 01:08:39.780 learn how that works. Does it make sense? 01:08:39.780 --> 01:08:41.060 At the moment... Sorry? 01:08:42.420 --> 01:08:43.300 No, sorry. Go ahead. 01:08:44.180 --> 01:08:50.020 At the moment, I'm probably strongest on the prophetic, and then I feel called to call the church to change 01:08:50.020 --> 01:08:56.100 and repentance around most things at the moment. So the prophet's really strong at the moment. I don't 01:08:56.100 --> 01:08:58.740 like it, but it's where God has got me at the moment. 01:09:00.900 --> 01:09:07.300 Does it make sense to take the test again, to take the assessment every couple of years? Do we see 01:09:08.020 --> 01:09:11.140 our scores age over time? What does that look like? 01:09:11.140 --> 01:09:18.580 Yes. It could very well do, because often a change in circumstance will change your gifting. You'll 01:09:18.580 --> 01:09:24.020 learn, you'll bring others up to the four. Generally, my experience, Jeff, is that you will 01:09:24.740 --> 01:09:30.180 probably operate out of your first three, but you can always get better at the other ones. 01:09:30.180 --> 01:09:36.180 And depending on your current scores, but yes, I would definitely say it's worth 01:09:36.740 --> 01:09:40.420 giving it a shot to see if you're getting better at things. 01:09:41.140 --> 01:09:41.300 Yeah. 01:09:41.300 --> 01:09:46.900 Yeah. And so Whitebeer was asking that one. Hilmi is asking again, and she asked this a couple of 01:09:46.900 --> 01:09:52.420 times, what function is missing? Let's assume within the US church. I know you're Australian, 01:09:52.420 --> 01:09:56.340 but judge what you can. What do you think is the biggest missing point for us? 01:09:56.340 --> 01:10:00.420 Well, I spent 13 years serving the US church. I think I've known this a little bit anyway. 01:10:01.140 --> 01:10:05.860 I think the apostolic function is the least understood of the lot. And when it is understood, 01:10:05.860 --> 01:10:10.740 it usually comes to see, oh, I'm going to dominate you, you're my bitch, kind of language. 01:10:11.540 --> 01:10:19.220 And I think that is what the Bible calls the false apostolic. So I think that's the one that's 01:10:19.220 --> 01:10:26.180 least understood. In the prophetic function, we tend to go one way or the other. Prophet, 01:10:26.180 --> 01:10:32.260 there's two dimensions to the prophet primarily, the vertical functionality, the mystical prayer, 01:10:33.300 --> 01:10:39.540 spiritual warfare dynamic, God orientation, that God stuff is very important. Prophets, 01:10:39.540 --> 01:10:44.580 very attentive to that. But the other side is the social justice one. What you get in America tends 01:10:44.580 --> 01:10:50.580 to go vertical or horizontal. It's not both. In the Bible, it's meant to be both. So the prophets are the 01:10:50.580 --> 01:10:56.660 ones that say, I hate your worship services. You know, all your glory clouds and all the stuff you 01:10:56.660 --> 01:11:02.260 get up to, I hate them, unless you do justice, right? So the two are meant to be integrated. 01:11:02.260 --> 01:11:06.980 If you've got like churches that are so big into glory clouds and stuff, but they don't do any justice, 01:11:06.980 --> 01:11:12.420 that's not biblical. If it's biblical prophecy, it's both. And I said that two of those are 01:11:12.420 --> 01:11:14.100 probably the least understood of the world. 01:11:14.100 --> 01:11:18.340 You know, I just want to keep score at home. Those of keeping score at home, Alan said, 01:11:18.340 --> 01:11:26.420 bitch twice in one broadcast. Maybe we can shoot, maybe we can shoot for three. Let's see how it 01:11:26.420 --> 01:11:32.020 ends. But go ahead, Stu, what you got? Well, I mean, it could be possible because I am going to ask a 01:11:32.020 --> 01:11:40.100 question around that apostolic wiring. So let's see where this goes. So you feel like that's the one that 01:11:40.100 --> 01:11:48.980 has been somewhat missing, especially for the US church. Now, let's say that that comes to the rise. 01:11:50.020 --> 01:11:57.460 How do you stop those who are gifted with that apostolic wiring to not get bored with the new 01:11:57.460 --> 01:12:06.020 thing that they got started to then run away and leave it unhealthy? Because that's the dark side of 01:12:06.020 --> 01:12:10.980 the apostle, right? It's like, they're go, go, go. Okay, this is nice. Ooh, shiny over here, 01:12:10.980 --> 01:12:16.580 right? So it's missing, but it could also have a very dangerous aspect when it comes to the rise. 01:12:16.580 --> 01:12:24.900 Yeah, true. So I would argue there's nuance to the type of apostle. The big categories in the New 01:12:24.900 --> 01:12:31.940 Testament would be Paul and Peter. Paul is the, what we call entrepreneur, goes to the edges. He's 01:12:31.940 --> 01:12:36.900 the guy you don't want hanging around too long. He's going to blow things up, right? You don't go on 01:12:36.900 --> 01:12:41.860 vacation with Paul, okay? It's just a bit hardcore. 01:12:41.860 --> 01:12:46.900 And Paul keeps moving. You've got to keep an assent. This is important. 01:12:48.100 --> 01:12:55.540 Peter, on the other hand, is called to Israel. And Peter calls the home base, the church in our case, 01:12:57.540 --> 01:13:01.380 is able to speak within the language, the love language of the organization and generate it, 01:13:01.380 --> 01:13:07.460 move it to the edges from within. And I think you need both. So don't just, there's a subtlety 01:13:07.460 --> 01:13:13.220 in the apostolic function that we need. I'm more Petrine form. People I know are much more than 01:13:13.220 --> 01:13:18.100 what to call, you know, the Pauline form. So I think there's a difference there. 01:13:19.220 --> 01:13:24.900 The other thing is, Rose, I would say, God has given these to every church. I would say, 01:13:25.780 --> 01:13:31.300 before you move off, uh, make sure that all five functions are operative in the local church and 01:13:31.300 --> 01:13:36.180 you weren't. God will know to look after it from there. So activate it in the local church, 01:13:36.180 --> 01:13:40.660 help people grow, and then you can move on. I didn't get the B word. I was trying. 01:13:40.660 --> 01:13:46.260 Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me, let me, let me try. Um, that's interesting. Amanda, Amanda just posted 01:13:46.260 --> 01:13:56.660 her scores, um, for, for a pest. And so she's strong, a, um, and shepherd secondary. You were strong, 01:13:56.660 --> 01:14:04.900 a as well. Um, what's it be like to be married to, uh, to an AA. Do we normally see that, that type of 01:14:04.900 --> 01:14:11.700 pairing? I w I would think like you would typically see more marriages be more complimentary, less, 01:14:11.700 --> 01:14:19.460 um, exact mirror. Um, I'm not asking for like meat, like insights on your marriage, but you know, 01:14:19.460 --> 01:14:26.100 do you, do you feel that tension? That's what he's trying to get. Yeah. No, it's, I'm actually 01:14:26.100 --> 01:14:33.540 excited to get off this call because I, I'm, I think she is, I think she is very surprised at, uh, 01:14:33.540 --> 01:14:37.940 at those results. Cause we don't, we don't, we don't clash in that area at all. She is very much, 01:14:37.940 --> 01:14:42.100 I'm, I have been very much a, here's where I think God wants us to go. She is very much a, 01:14:42.100 --> 01:14:46.180 I can figure out the details of how we're actually going to get there. Uh, so we don't really clash 01:14:46.180 --> 01:14:52.020 at all. Uh, so I'm actually really surprised by those results. I think she, my understanding of 01:14:52.020 --> 01:14:56.500 hers, she is surprised by those results. So I'm very excited for a great conversation later tonight, 01:14:56.500 --> 01:15:01.700 because that is unexpected for sure. The church digital bringing marriages together once again, 01:15:01.700 --> 01:15:08.660 I was just going to say like, uh, one, she's got a secondary shepherd, which kind of always qualifies. 01:15:08.660 --> 01:15:15.540 The shepherd is a human kind of a, it's got a high EQ functionality. They know, so it's a good 01:15:15.540 --> 01:15:20.020 combination when you've got someone who can be a driving, but you know, the apostolic can be a 01:15:20.020 --> 01:15:24.820 little more hard driving, the combination, really the shepherd can bring people with them. So that's 01:15:24.820 --> 01:15:29.940 great combo. And then the other side, I would simply say when a test is a test and this is a 01:15:29.940 --> 01:15:36.740 verified test, it's been a lot of money trying to get it statistically aligned, but we feel free to 01:15:36.740 --> 01:15:40.900 say, you know, if you know your definitions properly, give each other feedback and say, 01:15:40.900 --> 01:15:45.700 oh, I don't think that's true. You know, I think you're more of this and settle for that. Don't let the 01:15:48.420 --> 01:15:55.380 test get the final say, interact with it, uh, as human beings. And I'd say like any team of people, 01:15:56.260 --> 01:16:01.060 do the test because I think it takes guesswork out. But if you didn't have the test, if you want 01:16:01.060 --> 01:16:05.940 to sit down together and let me say, I was taking Jeff, we were, we were church over here, all of us 01:16:05.940 --> 01:16:11.060 together, kind of which we are. And I'll say, Jeff, okay, I'm going to coach you in front of everyone. 01:16:11.060 --> 01:16:15.540 Tell me, bro, of all the five, we've got our definitions right, which is number one. He's going 01:16:15.540 --> 01:16:21.460 to say, apostle. I'll say, why is that the case? And he's going to tell us his story, right? As to 01:16:21.460 --> 01:16:25.860 why he thinks that's the case. We're going to get the feedback to say, everyone, do you think he is 01:16:25.860 --> 01:16:32.500 that or not? Uh, and they say, yeah, for sure. No, he's an evangelist. And by the way, people do get 01:16:32.500 --> 01:16:38.420 those two mixed up all the time in America, particularly, by the way, just be careful. 01:16:39.460 --> 01:16:45.700 Um, um, and so, you know, so we're going to give him 360 feedback and you can do it like that. 01:16:45.700 --> 01:16:50.980 It's good because it's very relational and we need others to, to be ourselves. I need the body 01:16:50.980 --> 01:16:55.780 to give me feedback. I know my, I got to know my impact upon other people. And that's the important 01:16:55.780 --> 01:17:02.580 thing. So that's advice I would give you there. I appreciate that. This has been, this has been so 01:17:02.580 --> 01:17:08.100 good. You know, Alan, I want to thank you. It's, it's Thursday morning. Like it's the next day in 01:17:08.100 --> 01:17:14.740 Australia and, and well, Alan's waking up early starting the day with us here on the podcast. I, I do, 01:17:15.380 --> 01:17:20.740 you know, it's funny, Stu, we've, we've now had basically two entire podcasts in the past month 01:17:21.300 --> 01:17:25.380 on a pest and I still feel like we're just scratching the surface on this thing. Like I, 01:17:26.100 --> 01:17:32.340 I did not even dream we would spend this entire podcast, just talking a pest and here we are doing 01:17:32.340 --> 01:17:41.540 it. And so, you know, so good. So good. Yeah. I, Alan, I do want to ask you a non a pest question. 01:17:41.540 --> 01:17:46.740 And so, you know, you're here with the church digital, our listeners podcast, the people that 01:17:46.740 --> 01:17:52.260 are in this discord room, the, the, the planters and the pastors and the, that we're working with. 01:17:52.260 --> 01:17:57.460 Um, I mean, we're all innovative people. We're all outside of the box, uh, digital and virtual 01:17:57.460 --> 01:18:03.620 planting. You know, we've all taken bullets, um, so to speak, you know, for, for the ministry that 01:18:03.620 --> 01:18:09.780 we're doing, you know, and, um, in, in recent years, I've taken to the saying and I kind of use 01:18:09.780 --> 01:18:17.060 this mantra on my streams and encourage my people this way that, that pioneers get shot, settlers get 01:18:17.060 --> 01:18:22.100 rich. And so, you know, Susie's a pioneer. He's been doing this nine years. And for nine years, 01:18:22.100 --> 01:18:27.620 he's been taking bullets taking bullets for virtual, like, I don't, I don't need to sell you on this 01:18:27.620 --> 01:18:32.900 concept, Alan, you understand you've been doing church innovation for a long time, maybe not in 01:18:32.900 --> 01:18:37.620 the digital space, but you were, you know, redefining with minimal ecclesiology and a bunch of these 01:18:37.620 --> 01:18:40.580 other things that I wanted to get into in this conversation. We just didn't get into today. 01:18:41.940 --> 01:18:49.060 How do we do innovation without getting shot? Like, is that, is that actually possible? Is it, 01:18:49.060 --> 01:18:54.500 hey, you're going to take bullets for a season and then it gets better? Like from, from a guy that's 01:18:54.500 --> 01:19:00.820 been around the block a couple of times in this movement thing, um, in this church innovation space, 01:19:00.820 --> 01:19:07.540 I'm asking for some coaching. What do I tell my people, my team, my churches, the planters that we're 01:19:07.540 --> 01:19:13.220 working with when they're getting bullets? What, how do I, how do I, how do I help them in that? 01:19:15.460 --> 01:19:19.060 Oh gosh. Um, that's kind of a pastoral question. 01:19:21.860 --> 01:19:26.340 Excuse me. I'm putting on the shepherding hat here, right? You know, the, the apostle would have 01:19:26.340 --> 01:19:30.820 been like, I'm going to go swinging with you. Let's go. But I mean, seriously, like what, how do, 01:19:30.820 --> 01:19:36.820 how do we, what do we do? Yeah. I think, I think it's, it's, it's a difficulty that all organizations 01:19:36.820 --> 01:19:41.860 have, you know, like if you think of like any institution, it resists innovation because, 01:19:43.300 --> 01:19:49.300 the very, um, active innovation assumes that what we got isn't good enough. And, um, 01:19:50.260 --> 01:19:55.460 well, in, in the, in the business world, that, that institution will not last very long because 01:19:55.460 --> 01:19:59.940 without innovation, particularly in the disruptive kind of marketplace that we find ourselves now, 01:19:59.940 --> 01:20:04.660 you're not going to survive. So businesses know that because the bottom line is going to be impacted 01:20:04.660 --> 01:20:10.500 by our incapacity to do R and D and research and have alternatives. Uh, you need more than one line 01:20:10.500 --> 01:20:17.380 in the water. The church on the other hand is not good at this and, um, and basically does persecute 01:20:17.380 --> 01:20:24.740 its innovators and it kills its profits. And it has done this for a long, long time. Um, but I would say 01:20:24.740 --> 01:20:30.580 that, um, there are, there's some change now in organizations, particularly denominations that are 01:20:30.580 --> 01:20:36.580 in deep decline. They're desperate enough now to recognize that more of the same is not going to 01:20:36.580 --> 01:20:46.580 get different results. And I would say, um, yeah, there's been a change in the last 10 years or so, 01:20:46.580 --> 01:20:51.700 partly because of APS typology and the language is getting out there. So the, the functions are 01:20:51.700 --> 01:20:58.100 broadening out. And so, but it's still weighted in favor of the status quo, bro. And Jeff, I don't 01:20:58.100 --> 01:21:02.260 know, is there any easy answer to that, bro? I think you, if you do take bullets, take it for Jesus. 01:21:02.980 --> 01:21:07.860 And if they killed him, they're going to kill you too. And he said, he says that, doesn't he? 01:21:08.420 --> 01:21:14.020 Um, there's a side where if you're going to change something, if you want to change it, 01:21:14.980 --> 01:21:19.940 actually, let's say this also, Martin Luther King Jr. said that which you would change, 01:21:19.940 --> 01:21:25.220 you must first love. So I think, you know, the fact that we love the church enough to speak to it 01:21:26.020 --> 01:21:33.380 and call it into a new reality is really important. Um, whether the church will always recognize it, 01:21:33.380 --> 01:21:40.580 uh, don't know. I'll tell you what, uh, I haven't been run out of town for a few years now, 01:21:40.580 --> 01:21:47.780 but I have been run out of town a couple of times. Um, so it has happened. Um, but less and less so, 01:21:47.780 --> 01:21:53.220 I think something's changing. That which you love, that which you want to change, 01:21:53.220 --> 01:21:58.420 you must first love Martin Luther King. Yes. That is a incredible quote. I had, I had, 01:21:58.420 --> 01:22:02.100 I don't think I'd heard that one before. Yeah. Otherwise you end up bitch slapping it. 01:22:03.060 --> 01:22:11.620 There you go, Steve. Yes. That's three. That's what it is. That's a hat trick here. Um, I got, 01:22:11.620 --> 01:22:15.300 I got to figure out how to ship. If he'll be still on, we got to ship the church digital hat to 01:22:15.300 --> 01:22:21.300 Australia, uh, because Alan Hirsch just won himself a hat trick. Hey, Alan. So, uh, here on, 01:22:21.300 --> 01:22:26.020 on YouTube, if you're watching, do you want the black or do you want the gray and white? Which one 01:22:26.020 --> 01:22:30.260 do you want? Because you just got the hat trick here on episode 300. What color do you want? 01:22:30.260 --> 01:22:37.700 Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, I'm usually a black kind of guy. So, okay. I, we will, we will figure out the, 01:22:37.700 --> 01:22:43.460 the details. We're going to get you a, uh, a black hat. We'll talk off offline for that, but this, 01:22:43.460 --> 01:22:48.820 this has been, this has been awesome. Um, you need to make, you need to make a merch shirt that says 01:22:48.820 --> 01:22:56.180 that Alan Hirsch hit the hat trick live. Tell me three times on episode 300. 01:22:56.980 --> 01:23:02.180 Yeah. And it's gotta have like, it's gotta have like the mouth covered with like the, uh, 01:23:02.180 --> 01:23:03.860 money marker exclamation. 01:23:07.140 --> 01:23:13.220 What did you just say? Oh my gosh. Yeah. Her, her team, Barbara's team word revolution is, 01:23:13.220 --> 01:23:19.140 is, is incredible. And, um, I'm sure they are actively, uh, Barbara is all over that. Barbara 01:23:19.140 --> 01:23:24.260 isn't, um, Barbara, Barbara's in Portugal. And so I don't even know what time it is there. It's 01:23:24.260 --> 01:23:28.580 probably midnight, uh, 1 AM her time. So thank you even for being up this late Barbara. Hey, 01:23:29.300 --> 01:23:35.060 so we're going to land the plane. Um, guys, this has been so good. Um, you know, I know we've had 01:23:35.060 --> 01:23:42.500 a lot of tech issues here, uh, with this podcast, uh, God bless Dr. John only able to jump on for 01:23:42.500 --> 01:23:49.380 a minute or two. Um, and, um, uh, you know, I honestly, I I've listened to him talk. It's like, 01:23:49.380 --> 01:23:54.260 Dr. John, I want to do a podcast with you and just, and so look for him in the podcast to really start to, 01:23:54.260 --> 01:24:00.500 to, to, to flesh through what he was, uh, some of the stuff that he's working on. Um, 01:24:00.500 --> 01:24:06.420 you know, Joey came in for just a minute as well. Uh, he had some, um, things with his church at a 01:24:06.420 --> 01:24:11.460 bar, a Bible study was meeting that he had to step into at a relational level. And so, uh, but Hey, 01:24:11.460 --> 01:24:18.420 this has been a solid conversation. Susie Stunami. Um, I feel like we need a cool name for Alan Hirsch 01:24:18.420 --> 01:24:23.300 to, to end the night. Hershey is, is that, no, I would probably overstep boundaries by saying that. 01:24:24.260 --> 01:24:28.180 I respect you very much. You start running in a trademark. Hershey something trademark. 01:24:29.060 --> 01:24:34.020 Hershey.com. All of a sudden that seasoned assist letter from, uh, from the chocolate company gets 01:24:34.020 --> 01:24:39.140 here very quickly. But, um, Alan, seriously, sir, thank you for, you know, investing the time coming 01:24:39.140 --> 01:24:48.820 into this and, um, and, and really speaking, um, life into a, to a generation of churches here in 01:24:48.820 --> 01:24:57.460 digital space that is hungry for lessons like this. You know, I mean, uh, the fact that Susie is foaming 01:24:57.460 --> 01:25:02.660 at the mouth, the guy that's been doing this at not for nine years, um, you know, and it is, you know, 01:25:02.660 --> 01:25:07.620 just recently getting back and stepping up his involvement again. But as a result of that is 01:25:07.620 --> 01:25:12.020 hungry. And, and honestly, Susie, when, when I was like, Hey, who am I bringing from gamer church? 01:25:12.020 --> 01:25:17.780 I'm bringing in Susie. Cause dude, this stuff would, would go nuts over if he can really wrap 01:25:17.780 --> 01:25:24.180 his brain around this, like, this is going to be so powerful. And so in, in Stu, whatever this looks 01:25:24.180 --> 01:25:30.020 like in VR, you're the guy to figure that out, man. And so I love where we're going. Uh, white beard is 01:25:30.020 --> 01:25:36.180 going to close the night by calling Alan Hirsch, the Hirschinator. And so that's what we're going 01:25:36.180 --> 01:25:41.940 to go with because it's a, it's a, it's not a public, uh, it's not a private secret. Uh, white beard 01:25:41.940 --> 01:25:48.100 runs the church digital discord. And so I'm going to land episode 300 by saying this for the church 01:25:48.100 --> 01:25:54.500 digital. Uh, we got Susie, we got Stunami, uh, we got Jeff and we got the Hirschinator signing off. 01:25:54.500 --> 01:25:58.180 Thanks for all for joining us tonight. And we'll see you next time on the show. Y'all have a good one. 01:26:00.020 --> 01:26:02.020 Bye.