WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.780 I start recruiting leaders is because I don't want it to be a monotone. 00:00:05.080 --> 00:00:07.480 I don't want it to be a personality driven by all means. 00:00:07.580 --> 00:00:10.240 So I don't want people to just look at me at the past. 00:00:10.440 --> 00:00:14.740 When we're having conversations at the church and they recognize leadership, 00:00:15.340 --> 00:00:16.800 they just don't point to me. 00:00:17.440 --> 00:00:20.860 They point to the other people with me, which I think is great. 00:00:21.540 --> 00:00:23.500 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:24.300 --> 00:00:28.340 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church. 00:00:28.340 --> 00:00:32.320 But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. 00:00:32.860 --> 00:00:34.380 Is disciple making possible digitally? 00:00:34.840 --> 00:00:36.860 How should we approach the digital mission field? 00:00:37.160 --> 00:00:39.720 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? 00:00:40.120 --> 00:00:44.040 Oh, and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this? 00:00:44.780 --> 00:00:46.940 Whether you're a big or small church, 00:00:47.280 --> 00:00:51.760 the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, 00:00:52.140 --> 00:00:53.600 digitally and physically. 00:00:53.980 --> 00:00:55.760 And now here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:00:56.120 --> 00:00:56.820 Hey, everybody. 00:00:56.960 --> 00:00:58.640 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:59.000 --> 00:01:01.800 We are in season eight. 00:01:02.620 --> 00:01:04.580 Wait, that's a church? 00:01:04.820 --> 00:01:05.980 Joey, I think I got that one right. 00:01:06.100 --> 00:01:06.700 That may be... 00:01:06.700 --> 00:01:06.940 I did. 00:01:07.020 --> 00:01:07.520 That was good. 00:01:07.880 --> 00:01:10.720 That may be like the cut, copy, paste it. 00:01:10.880 --> 00:01:12.000 They were going to do that from now on. 00:01:12.420 --> 00:01:13.740 But this is episode 303. 00:01:14.140 --> 00:01:15.560 303 of the Church Digital Podcast. 00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:23.960 Barbara Carnero is excited about the little 8-bit avatar, Jeff, jumping up and down in front of a cathedral as it morphs into a bar. 00:01:24.180 --> 00:01:25.460 Like she... 00:01:25.460 --> 00:01:28.620 Anyway, that is a reality that's going to happen. 00:01:28.680 --> 00:01:29.520 We had that conversation. 00:01:29.920 --> 00:01:32.240 And that's a throwback to 302 if you missed it. 00:01:32.780 --> 00:01:40.580 But here in season eight, wait, that's a church, we're hanging out with Joey Santos initially. 00:01:40.840 --> 00:01:43.340 And we'll bring some other people in in some future episodes. 00:01:43.340 --> 00:01:48.340 But really doing a deep dive into the idea of church at a bar. 00:01:48.760 --> 00:01:58.000 Joey is a former digital pastor who resigned from his job as a digital pastor at an established physical church 00:01:58.000 --> 00:02:07.100 to basically continue to run a church, microchurch, that operates out of a bar location. 00:02:07.100 --> 00:02:13.180 And I actually became the operations manager, operations director for said bar. 00:02:13.720 --> 00:02:15.420 And what an incredible story. 00:02:15.660 --> 00:02:17.640 I think we're episode three in on this. 00:02:18.340 --> 00:02:20.660 You know, Joey, I do think this is going so good. 00:02:21.980 --> 00:02:27.820 I think I can officially say we're going to spin this off into a separate series. 00:02:28.040 --> 00:02:29.920 I just, I really love hanging out with my friend. 00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:33.480 And, you know, we've been getting some good feedback on it. 00:02:33.620 --> 00:02:38.500 To be honest, I have no idea how I'm going to manage, like, all the administrative stuff on all this. 00:02:38.840 --> 00:02:42.180 But, you know, knowing me, it's like fake it till you make it. 00:02:42.260 --> 00:02:47.200 So we're just going to run until, you know, somebody smashes or crashes or, you know, whatever. 00:02:47.540 --> 00:02:49.280 If somebody can do it, that's a huge job. 00:02:49.600 --> 00:02:50.100 Yes, yeah. 00:02:50.760 --> 00:02:53.380 In the absence of leadership, someone will arise. 00:02:53.500 --> 00:02:55.040 And would somebody please arise at this point? 00:02:55.160 --> 00:02:55.640 No, I'm kidding. 00:02:55.720 --> 00:02:56.160 This is great. 00:02:56.660 --> 00:02:58.980 I love doing this. 00:02:58.980 --> 00:03:01.900 And so, but hey, so let's review. 00:03:02.040 --> 00:03:16.420 Episode 301, if you're new to this conversation, the first episode, we've really focused on kind of operation, basically what we're doing with the show and the idea of, wait, that's a church. 00:03:16.740 --> 00:03:23.480 And so it's really kind of an intro to the whole thing, as my pharmacist calls me, which is awesome. 00:03:23.720 --> 00:03:32.460 Episode 2, 302, was really more focused on the bar itself and Joey's story of how that worked. 00:03:32.540 --> 00:03:36.200 And so you can go back and listen to episode 302 of that. 00:03:36.680 --> 00:03:55.780 And then episode 3, 303, where we are now, man, like Joey dropped a bomb last week and we kind of glossed it over just because of time, but where Joey was talking about how he is looking at extending the bar into new locations, multiple locations. 00:03:55.780 --> 00:04:01.940 And the bar is opening up a new, what's it called, monkey, what's monkey bar, monkey shines? 00:04:02.020 --> 00:04:02.860 What's the name of the bar, Joey? 00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:04.480 It's monkey bar and grill. 00:04:05.220 --> 00:04:12.220 Monkey bar and grill is opening up a new location in, um, well, they're, they're like four or five miles away. 00:04:12.260 --> 00:04:18.560 And so what would, what would a multi-site micro church model look like a network of churches? 00:04:18.560 --> 00:04:28.020 And even, you know, getting into the question of, as we're talking about, um, multiple models of church, like what exactly is a church? 00:04:28.020 --> 00:04:32.240 And so these are some of the things we're going to get into, uh, here into the conversation today. 00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:37.280 And Joey, I have done a lot of talking up here at the front and, and not much of you. 00:04:37.280 --> 00:04:41.620 So, man, you got anything you want to say up top here as, as we, uh, with the show? 00:04:42.360 --> 00:04:42.760 Yeah. 00:04:42.840 --> 00:04:43.540 Thanks, Jeff. 00:04:43.580 --> 00:04:45.100 I think it has been really good. 00:04:45.160 --> 00:04:48.300 It's first two episodes has been really, I think really good. 00:04:48.380 --> 00:04:55.340 Actually, it helps me to remember, remember things that we've done that, you know, sometimes you forget. 00:04:55.340 --> 00:05:02.280 And it's good to look back, uh, and kind of refresh our memories on some of these things that we've done. 00:05:02.280 --> 00:05:03.380 And it's just a bar. 00:05:03.760 --> 00:05:10.480 I think it's, I think for the audience though, for the people listening to us, it's so important for them to understand that this is not, 00:05:10.980 --> 00:05:15.100 this is really not a statement about any kind of expression of church. 00:05:15.140 --> 00:05:21.280 It actually is the opposite is it's us like looking into, first of all, the mission of the church. 00:05:21.940 --> 00:05:26.600 And regardless of the building where you meet in, you meet at, it doesn't matter. 00:05:26.740 --> 00:05:29.000 It's just, you know, are we accomplishing the mission? 00:05:29.620 --> 00:05:37.100 Uh, and I happen to have an opportunity to do this, this inside of a building that happens to be a bar, right? 00:05:37.100 --> 00:05:47.200 So we, uh, and we focus on just let's accomplish this mission of making disciples or making disciples look like in this environment. 00:05:47.200 --> 00:05:51.240 So, uh, I think it's, it breaks from the traditional, that's for sure. 00:05:51.240 --> 00:05:59.200 And, in, I think in the next few episodes, people are going to start meeting other expressions of church out there. 00:05:59.400 --> 00:06:10.740 But I think there's even a possibility that we're going to discover through this podcast is people having different expressions of the church inside a traditional church building, 00:06:11.100 --> 00:06:16.020 which makes a very interesting, makes a very interesting twist to the whole thing. 00:06:16.660 --> 00:06:28.020 Uh, because at the end of the day, it's really about the mission at the church and are we accomplishing that mission through any of those expressions, including digital, uh, right? 00:06:28.020 --> 00:06:33.920 I just happened to not be doing digital the way I was doing before, but I, I, I deeply believe on the digital. 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:45.480 I still, uh, to this day, uh, yes, I help churches in conversations on, on digital, uh, platforms and digital churches and what they're doing, uh, because I believe in that mission. 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:55.900 I believe that you can accomplish the mission through digital, uh, platform, but this isn't to me is happened to be a micro church model, which I never done it before. 00:06:56.220 --> 00:07:02.940 That's the most, like, I never, ever crossed my mind to ever do this, uh, anything remotely like this. 00:07:03.480 --> 00:07:09.240 So I think it is important though, but, but, but again, Jesus, he said the example, right? 00:07:09.240 --> 00:07:13.080 He multiply before he distribute, before he gave away. 00:07:13.220 --> 00:07:21.660 And that's what we're looking at, you know, can we, what we need to do to multiply the experience that people are having in this location. 00:07:22.420 --> 00:07:24.640 Uh, and I would say, Jeff, I don't know about you. 00:07:24.780 --> 00:07:35.720 I, I, I, I'm, I'm curious to hear from you now is, uh, when it comes to multiplication in your mind, what do you think should be the first step of every leader? 00:07:36.120 --> 00:07:39.300 What they should think first when, what, what do you think that is? 00:07:40.940 --> 00:07:42.980 Oh man, I feel like this is a trick question. 00:07:43.080 --> 00:07:44.460 You're, you're putting me on the spot here. 00:07:44.460 --> 00:07:45.620 I'm supposed to be interviewing you. 00:07:46.300 --> 00:07:52.380 Um, and so, uh, yeah, I mean, I would say, well, you know, it's, it's interesting. 00:07:52.380 --> 00:07:54.480 Actually, I, I told somebody this the other day. 00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:59.600 It's, it's, if I'm gonna, if I'm gonna train somebody, I never want to train one person. 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:03.700 I always want to train two or three, um, at the same time. 00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:13.920 Um, I just have a, um, a very, well, I've trained that one person before I've invested a year in that person and that person doesn't, doesn't pan out. 00:08:14.300 --> 00:08:20.100 And so like it, for me, it's, I would rather train two or three people at the same time. 00:08:20.440 --> 00:08:35.300 Um, and when I say train, I mean, that can be training on a technique, a technical technique that can be, um, you know, that can be investing in, in a marriage or a relationship or, you know, that could even be just full on discipleship and, and, and, and walking through that person. 00:08:35.660 --> 00:08:40.180 Um, the, the intent is, you know, especially focused on multiplication. 00:08:41.000 --> 00:08:43.860 Um, you know, is your disciple capable of making a disciple? 00:08:44.300 --> 00:08:46.760 Can they reproduce this idea? 00:08:47.060 --> 00:08:55.740 Which for me is like, when you said last week that you were wanting your church to multiply, uh, like not just the one bar location, but multiple bar locations. 00:08:56.300 --> 00:08:57.660 And that was like an urgency. 00:08:57.840 --> 00:09:07.620 Now to me, that was like, that was like angels singing in the background because I mean, to be honest, um, we don't, we don't see that a lot. 00:09:07.620 --> 00:09:18.820 Uh, and it, and it, it takes a lot of coaching to get planters today, uh, to overcome the growth mindset and, and go to a multiplication mindset. 00:09:18.820 --> 00:09:43.200 Um, and so like to me, that's, that's the big difference with, with multiplication is I'm going to invest time in my best person, not to become my associate, to make my life easier, but actually to hand it off, to be my, not competition, but somebody who's going to be taking my leaders and making my life really much, much harder. 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:50.340 Um, it's interesting there, I'll, I'll shut up after this, Joey, but I heard a guy on, um, oh my gosh, I forget what podcast this was. 00:09:50.760 --> 00:10:03.560 Um, it was, uh, a leadership church leadership podcast a couple of years ago, and he was interviewing a pastor in California and this, this pastor, you know, Ian's in the crowd, Ian, this is actually a great story for you. 00:10:04.140 --> 00:10:17.200 Um, this guy was at 150 person church somewhere in California, I want to say Northern California, and he said they worked really hard to grow the church to 250, 300 people. 00:10:17.780 --> 00:10:26.020 And he said, the staff and the people were miserable at 300, their discipleship model fell apart. 00:10:26.260 --> 00:10:27.660 Nobody knew each other. 00:10:27.820 --> 00:10:30.800 There wasn't the fellowship and the community aspects wasn't there. 00:10:30.800 --> 00:10:31.940 Like they couldn't do 300. 00:10:32.340 --> 00:10:40.400 And so what the church decided was anytime they got to 250 or 200, 225, they'd start to split. 00:10:40.600 --> 00:10:53.020 They'd figure out who was going to go lead the next church in that church, as I recall, planted seven campuses, seven standalone churches, 150 person church planted seven churches as a result of, Hey, we're too big. 00:10:53.240 --> 00:10:53.760 Somebody go. 00:10:53.840 --> 00:10:54.320 We're too big. 00:10:54.380 --> 00:10:56.560 Somebody goes, who's next, where you want to go? 00:10:56.620 --> 00:10:57.360 Okay, let's go there. 00:10:57.380 --> 00:10:58.180 Who's going to go with them? 00:10:58.600 --> 00:11:01.340 You're like that idea of multiplication is beautiful. 00:11:02.200 --> 00:11:02.400 I enjoy. 00:11:02.500 --> 00:11:10.580 I have no idea if that's what you were looking for, but that's what I really, I really trying to pick her brain on it because I remember when we first started, 00:11:10.580 --> 00:11:22.500 started this idea in implementing this church, the bar, it was so interesting to me because I remember, you know, the bar, you'll be in there. 00:11:22.600 --> 00:11:24.440 It's a gigantic building for a bar. 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:24.880 Oh, yeah. 00:11:25.040 --> 00:11:25.620 In a restaurant. 00:11:25.800 --> 00:11:31.020 So just like I said, the patio alone, we can, we'll have 800 people there on a Friday night. 00:11:32.300 --> 00:11:33.740 That's not even inside the building. 00:11:33.860 --> 00:11:35.600 Inside the building is another 400 people. 00:11:36.520 --> 00:11:41.500 So when we first started, we started with a mega church mindset. 00:11:42.280 --> 00:11:46.780 We started the church, the bar thinking, how can we put 400 people inside this bar? 00:11:46.900 --> 00:11:49.220 And we'll figure it out what to do with them when they come in. 00:11:50.060 --> 00:11:59.860 And it's very interesting because it didn't take too long for me that was there almost every weekend to realize that's not the goal. 00:12:01.140 --> 00:12:02.600 Like to me, that was not the goal. 00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:07.300 For the church, it's still like that's what we want to do. 00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:08.880 We want to feel displaced with people. 00:12:10.820 --> 00:12:20.780 But as soon as I started really getting into the weekly activities with the church, the bar, I learned very soon, very fast. 00:12:21.100 --> 00:12:22.880 That's like, that's not the point. 00:12:22.880 --> 00:12:29.060 We'll lose momentum really fast in the church, the bar, if we grow too fast, if we grow too much. 00:12:29.540 --> 00:12:38.200 That means we are meant to be a small group of people who want to get a better relationship with each other and God. 00:12:38.840 --> 00:12:42.200 And anything beyond that, we need to go to a different place. 00:12:42.260 --> 00:12:44.000 So like we got to think multiplication. 00:12:45.500 --> 00:12:48.520 And that's when that, in my mind, shifts immediately. 00:12:48.700 --> 00:12:55.880 So the first thing I did a year and a half ago, I invited two people to join me on a teaching team. 00:12:56.680 --> 00:13:08.760 And they start, I started developing them into that position, which, you know, it was one male, one female, which they, yeah, we have a female teacher. 00:13:09.300 --> 00:13:10.440 And I chose the bar. 00:13:10.440 --> 00:13:17.740 But the goal for them is like, listen, the idea is for you guys to eventually go out. 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:20.080 And then we train more. 00:13:20.780 --> 00:13:26.500 The new location, actually, that we're going to start building at the end of this year, we start building the new location. 00:13:28.220 --> 00:13:34.420 One of the teachers, you know, the leaders, it's closer to his house. 00:13:34.960 --> 00:13:37.060 So he's like, I'm taking down one. 00:13:37.140 --> 00:13:37.760 I said, perfect. 00:13:38.600 --> 00:13:39.780 We got things started. 00:13:39.900 --> 00:13:41.860 You go, you take that over there. 00:13:43.380 --> 00:13:52.580 And I think that's the, that has been like, again, something new for me to dive into and explore what this really looks like. 00:13:52.700 --> 00:13:53.960 But here's a challenge. 00:13:54.220 --> 00:13:58.460 And I think it'd be great to hear from all other microchurch pastors. 00:13:58.740 --> 00:14:08.960 Because because it's such a small group, it's a tight group, the last thing this group want to think about is split up into different groups because they're ready to build the relationship. 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:16.080 It's like when you happen to find the perfect small group in your church, you don't want to split up to grow. 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:21.280 But the church, you know, the church leadership is like, no, if you want to grow, we got to split our group. 00:14:21.840 --> 00:14:24.640 Well, it's a very relationship based. 00:14:24.640 --> 00:14:26.840 I don't want to split up because we have a relationship. 00:14:26.840 --> 00:14:36.320 So we have been having this conversation as the church, the bar with the group that we have saying we are the starting point of this. 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:48.000 That means eventually we have to have such a missional mindset in this church that we're going to have to go out and lead other people so we can grow as a ministry. 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:51.020 So we can actually impact more people, not just here. 00:14:51.580 --> 00:14:54.540 And that's we talk about that constantly there. 00:14:54.700 --> 00:15:05.780 So we put in people's minds, you know, the whole time they're there that, you know, you may not be here for too long because you're going to be doing the mission someplace else because that's the calling here. 00:15:07.500 --> 00:15:09.740 And people, like, they seem open to it. 00:15:10.880 --> 00:15:13.600 I think it's going to be different when, you know, it happens. 00:15:14.360 --> 00:15:17.060 But we're going to cross that bridge when we get there. 00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:22.900 But I think that's going to be our biggest challenge in multiplication because I wanted the multiplication. 00:15:22.900 --> 00:15:29.240 I want to see a multiplication that's not so organizationally structured. 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:43.420 I want to see a multiplication that it happens in a way that just like happens to church, the bar, where it's completely relationship driven and not much as organizational structure driven. 00:15:43.520 --> 00:15:44.480 Does that make any sense? 00:15:45.820 --> 00:15:46.040 Yeah. 00:15:46.040 --> 00:15:54.540 So the average church in America with a growth model, you know, they've got a – I'm using a building. 00:15:54.660 --> 00:16:04.720 It's not really about the building sometimes, but it's about, you know, utilizing the resources that you have to make that pop. 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:17.600 And so the goal is to make the building, the services, the people, the seats, like maximizing the potential of what's in that building, the resources that are in that building. 00:16:18.260 --> 00:16:22.660 You know, what you're describing is almost like another level above that. 00:16:23.280 --> 00:16:32.840 You know, I'm thinking like, you know, Rob Wagner's Casey Underground, Tampa Underground down here, Lucas Pulley, Texas Church Project, Jason Shepard. 00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:49.680 You know, those guys are not as concerned with what is happening in any one location as much as getting and reproducing more of the leaders and the people to fan out. 00:16:49.900 --> 00:17:06.120 They're focusing more on individuals to reproduce something, to grow them to the place where they can stand on their own as opposed to compiling and growing a location or a spot or a brand. 00:17:06.460 --> 00:17:18.900 You know, I don't want to equate physical churches to brand, but often, at least in my experience, it is a lot about the brand of that and the misinterpretation of what branding actually means. 00:17:18.900 --> 00:17:24.200 But I do think it's a different level of what you're describing. 00:17:24.200 --> 00:17:27.660 It's higher than a single location. 00:17:27.960 --> 00:17:29.980 And now you're casting vision to your people. 00:17:30.560 --> 00:17:34.000 It's not about what happens here on the corner of 5th and Main. 00:17:34.320 --> 00:17:38.880 It's now about how can we empower others to do that. 00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:50.340 Like, at that point, Joey, I love the fact that you have a teaching team because essentially you're moving into the place higher up the ladder where it's like, hey, I just want to see this idea spread. 00:17:51.060 --> 00:17:52.260 What are you going to do about it? 00:17:52.340 --> 00:17:57.940 You know, within the movement system, I don't, you know, here with the Church Digital, I don't teach the movement system. 00:17:58.560 --> 00:18:03.200 You know, flat cap and Jason do that, you know, and so I don't have to. 00:18:03.360 --> 00:18:04.820 I can be higher. 00:18:04.900 --> 00:18:12.400 Now, I want to be involved, but to the point of there are people that are doing that and they are reproducing themselves. 00:18:12.540 --> 00:18:14.000 It's a conversation I had with Jason today. 00:18:14.860 --> 00:18:26.800 So, like, the idea of seeing growth and expansion, but to do that, I feel like we as an individual, we as the leaders, we can't find our identity in doing the work. 00:18:27.660 --> 00:18:35.300 You know, so often when I talk about flying higher and empowering others to lead, well, Jeff, I really love insert X. 00:18:35.380 --> 00:18:36.360 I really love preaching. 00:18:36.360 --> 00:18:39.320 And so, like, I'm not, I want 50 weeks a year. 00:18:39.780 --> 00:18:42.420 Jeff, I really love, you know, having the conversations. 00:18:42.420 --> 00:18:43.860 And so, I'm going to do it myself. 00:18:43.980 --> 00:18:48.020 I don't need to apprentice or disciple anybody into this. 00:18:48.080 --> 00:18:56.060 And that's where I feel like it's a mistake because our pride actually keeps us from releasing and raising up the potential of somebody else. 00:18:56.500 --> 00:18:56.840 Oh, yeah. 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:06.880 That started, for me, it started in Kansas City when we had a cohort meeting on digital church planting. 00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:14.820 Where I was literally first introduced to the conversation of what decentralized church would look like. 00:19:15.620 --> 00:19:18.400 Like, I really caught that in that meeting. 00:19:18.660 --> 00:19:24.540 And I really started to study that and explore that and reading books about it. 00:19:24.540 --> 00:19:38.520 Because I think fundamentally, it's where the church finds itself in a, not a conflict, but in a realist challenge. 00:19:38.840 --> 00:19:46.020 Because the satellite model does not allow decentralized church to work, right? 00:19:46.320 --> 00:19:48.080 It's a very centralized model. 00:19:48.420 --> 00:19:55.000 Even in a satellite campus style of a church, it cannot be decentralized. 00:19:55.300 --> 00:20:07.080 I remember even, like, in a church like I used to work, when I brought the conversation about, you know, we got to change the format in the church to bar because it doesn't work the same way being here in a building. 00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:11.060 And, you know, we can't, we cannot have, we cannot try. 00:20:11.140 --> 00:20:11.800 It's not going to work. 00:20:12.380 --> 00:20:20.140 And in many conversations, it was like, no, no, no, we got, I remember even, like, a sermon series that we're doing on finances. 00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:26.180 And one of the conversations were, oh, we got to do there the exact same thing we're doing here. 00:20:26.600 --> 00:20:29.880 I was like, you know, let me ask what we're trying to accomplish. 00:20:30.020 --> 00:20:43.820 Let's say we can accomplish it in a way that fits that crowd different than here because here you have chairs facing one way, you have a stage, you have lights, you have, you know, everything is set up for what you're doing. 00:20:44.100 --> 00:20:50.680 But when you get in a bar setting where tables and chairs and people are sitting more in a community environment, they're having conversations. 00:20:51.340 --> 00:20:57.160 What we do in a building, in a church, traditional church building, is not going to work in a different environment. 00:20:57.280 --> 00:21:00.120 So all you have to do is, like, what goal we want to accomplish. 00:21:00.500 --> 00:21:04.460 Let's accomplish the goal, but it might not look the same the way we do it. 00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:06.800 And the tension was that. 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:10.300 The tension was, it's not going to work if you don't do exactly the same. 00:21:10.420 --> 00:21:13.140 And I was like, okay, so let's do exactly the same. 00:21:13.800 --> 00:21:18.840 And, you know, we actually tried to replicate every single aspect of it. 00:21:18.900 --> 00:21:19.980 And it did not work. 00:21:20.500 --> 00:21:22.100 And it didn't get the results. 00:21:22.100 --> 00:21:25.800 Let me back up a little bit. 00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:31.560 Because I know sometimes when I talk about decentralized, I get eyes glossing over. 00:21:31.960 --> 00:21:33.700 But I think this is an important principle. 00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:38.360 Because I've actually worked in a centralized multi-site and a decentralized both. 00:21:38.600 --> 00:21:42.400 And so, like, I can literally testify to the strengths and weaknesses of both sides. 00:21:43.180 --> 00:21:52.580 So a centralized church is going to be something like Life Church, where Life Church has an elevation. 00:21:53.240 --> 00:21:54.520 And it's not about size. 00:21:55.700 --> 00:22:01.120 It's more about they want the same experiences across the board. 00:22:01.260 --> 00:22:11.520 Whether it's video teaching, same worship sets, same small group material, same discipleship process. 00:22:12.560 --> 00:22:13.500 And that's great. 00:22:14.180 --> 00:22:19.020 By the way, Life Church actually has, like, a customer profile. 00:22:20.280 --> 00:22:20.780 A couple years. 00:22:20.820 --> 00:22:21.860 This is old data. 00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:23.080 This goes back pre-COVID. 00:22:23.620 --> 00:22:26.120 But lots of churches want to become Life Church. 00:22:26.580 --> 00:22:35.020 Life Church would not even consider going to the town or the city that the church was recruiting unless there was a Panera. 00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:37.320 I'm sorry, not a Panera, a payway. 00:22:37.620 --> 00:22:46.320 If there was a payway in the area that the church was at, that was the metric that Life Church would consider to go into that town. 00:22:46.320 --> 00:22:50.480 Because Life Church knew what the customer was. 00:22:50.700 --> 00:22:54.380 And this customer of payway was the same customer that would go to a Life Church. 00:22:54.380 --> 00:22:55.400 It was the same type of person. 00:22:55.880 --> 00:23:01.260 And so Life Church was really good at reaching that type of person and would only go where that type of person existed. 00:23:01.660 --> 00:23:12.180 And there's a strong level of centralization and control because the central church is controlling what's happening out at the, you know, Joe used the term satellites at the other locations. 00:23:13.140 --> 00:23:27.780 The other issue, the other model is a decentralized multi-site where it's more like a network of churches that work together and less like Starbucks franchises. 00:23:28.500 --> 00:23:36.140 So a decentralized model is like, hey, why don't you go over there and why don't you go over there and you go over here? 00:23:36.660 --> 00:23:40.620 Okay, I'm in an area that's very urban and downtown. 00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:43.080 You're in a very redneck rural area. 00:23:43.220 --> 00:23:45.000 You're in a very Hispanic area. 00:23:45.580 --> 00:23:46.680 Okay, let's work together. 00:23:46.800 --> 00:23:51.680 Let's share HR resources and other things to try to centralize as much as we can. 00:23:51.980 --> 00:23:59.260 But it's important that, you know, whatever you guys need at the ministry level to succeed, that's what you should do. 00:23:59.860 --> 00:24:05.740 And so it's not about decentralized is not about control as much as it is empowering others. 00:24:06.240 --> 00:24:11.600 Now, what's interesting is like I hated the decentralized model when I was centralized. 00:24:11.940 --> 00:24:17.560 And when I got to decentralized, I hated central, like, you know, there's so many strengths and weaknesses in both. 00:24:17.860 --> 00:24:20.540 It's like it was a nightmare. 00:24:20.760 --> 00:24:26.640 Being a communications director in a decentralized church model, I'm telling you, is the hardest thing on the planet. 00:24:26.760 --> 00:24:27.120 Oh, man. 00:24:27.180 --> 00:24:33.880 You've got six churches all doing their own thing, and you've got to figure out what to communicate from the main brand. 00:24:34.300 --> 00:24:41.020 You know, and how many campus pastors were fighting me to get their church, their preaching online? 00:24:41.280 --> 00:24:42.620 It's just, like I said, it was a nightmare. 00:24:43.840 --> 00:24:53.800 But now, man, I love the idea of what we're seeing Joey do and others where it's not about brand. 00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:56.540 It's not about trying to centralize something that's decentralized. 00:24:57.240 --> 00:25:03.420 It's more about, man, how do I empower this guy that lives in this area to create a church in a bar with a bar that we're building? 00:25:03.760 --> 00:25:08.600 What would it even look like to start to partner with other bars, hypothetically speaking, of course, here? 00:25:08.760 --> 00:25:10.060 Like, to me, it's really exciting. 00:25:10.180 --> 00:25:17.000 Like, I know people who own bars, and I'm thinking, oh, my gosh, I need to introduce them to Joey because they would love the idea of this church at a bar thing. 00:25:17.060 --> 00:25:18.120 Like, we could scale this thing. 00:25:18.800 --> 00:25:19.140 Oh, yeah. 00:25:19.320 --> 00:25:26.220 And it's going to be different in different locations because it's different people, and it's different leaders. 00:25:26.420 --> 00:25:39.100 Like, see, even that alone, one of the things why I started recruiting leaders at the church, the bar, in a very small group, is because I don't want it to be a monotone church. 00:25:39.220 --> 00:25:44.460 I don't want it to be a personality-driven by all means. 00:25:44.540 --> 00:25:47.260 So I don't want people to just look at me at a pastor. 00:25:47.380 --> 00:25:58.220 And it's interesting right now because when the church makes – when we're having conversations at the church and they recognize leadership, they just don't point to me. 00:25:58.880 --> 00:26:02.260 They point to the other people with me, which I think is great. 00:26:02.660 --> 00:26:04.800 They don't just recognize me as the only teacher. 00:26:05.160 --> 00:26:11.120 They recognize all three of us, which I think is phenomenal without me ever pushing that. 00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:16.780 Just by putting them up front and leading conversations, and all three of us, we don't lead the same. 00:26:17.600 --> 00:26:19.760 So, for example, here's how we do this. 00:26:19.880 --> 00:26:26.040 And this is going to make some pastors really probably twist their arms on this one. 00:26:26.040 --> 00:26:40.580 But the way we do it is, like, we actually met last October and planned the whole 2004 teaching plan for the whole year. 00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:42.900 Except one thing, though. 00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:47.060 With the weekends I teach, I prepare myself. 00:26:47.540 --> 00:26:49.240 I chose the team. 00:26:50.140 --> 00:26:52.980 But each one of us do our own way. 00:26:53.500 --> 00:26:55.820 We don't follow the same format. 00:26:56.120 --> 00:26:58.300 We don't follow the same – I'll tell you this, Jack. 00:26:58.460 --> 00:27:02.000 Not even – we use the screen, the big screen behind us. 00:27:02.060 --> 00:27:05.560 We have a big screen that we use for, you know, to show sports. 00:27:05.800 --> 00:27:07.400 So we connect our computer. 00:27:07.860 --> 00:27:09.820 But not even our presentations look the same. 00:27:10.820 --> 00:27:14.720 Like, it's not like we have the same template for the presentations and all. 00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:15.400 Why? 00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:21.180 Because we want people to know the teacher, to know the speaker for who they are, for their style. 00:27:22.080 --> 00:27:29.140 And I think that's – it's so important on a church environment, right? 00:27:29.260 --> 00:27:37.480 And the people, like, if it's going to be decentralized, I even look at us like the leadership – our leadership is very decentralized, right? 00:27:37.540 --> 00:27:49.960 We agree on the mission, where we want to go, but we don't want to, you know – and I actually thought it's interesting because branding seems to be a dirty word in church sometimes. 00:27:49.960 --> 00:27:54.220 But even to be decentralized, you've got to brand that, right? 00:27:54.260 --> 00:27:57.860 You've got to brand the decentralization of your model. 00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:09.800 But I think there's so much good when we actually prepare leaders to be who they're called to be and allow them to lead. 00:28:11.600 --> 00:28:14.240 Well, flat cap in chat here. 00:28:14.320 --> 00:28:15.400 By the way, we're hanging out in Discord. 00:28:15.520 --> 00:28:16.460 I don't know if I said that earlier. 00:28:16.660 --> 00:28:20.260 We're broadcasting this live in Discord, doing a live podcast recording. 00:28:21.320 --> 00:28:22.820 Discord.thechurch.digital. 00:28:22.900 --> 00:28:23.240 Come join. 00:28:23.960 --> 00:28:30.400 Okay, so flat cap in the chat here says, set them free versus control them. 00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:32.760 And that's an interesting question. 00:28:33.860 --> 00:28:36.440 So decentralized, we want to empower people in the field. 00:28:36.540 --> 00:28:39.140 You're talking about this guy that lives in this area. 00:28:39.260 --> 00:28:41.580 You want to see him succeed, and so you're training to release. 00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:45.560 What is a non-negotiable? 00:28:45.820 --> 00:28:53.940 Like in microchurch network terms, minimal ecclesiology, we talked about that a little bit in episode 300 with Alan Hirsch. 00:28:53.960 --> 00:29:04.400 What defines a church so much that in your terms that's not on the table? 00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:12.220 Well, that's a little question, isn't it? 00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:19.400 You see, it definitely is not the style of service. 00:29:21.800 --> 00:29:26.740 What defines the ecclesiology of the church, the Bible, for example, is not the style of service. 00:29:27.280 --> 00:29:29.080 And I would say, Jeff, this is one thing. 00:29:29.840 --> 00:29:32.680 It's the Bible is the only authority in the room. 00:29:35.420 --> 00:29:36.940 That's it, like for us. 00:29:37.120 --> 00:29:39.160 Like I said, I mentioned that before. 00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:45.280 I mentioned that before. 00:29:45.540 --> 00:29:50.640 I said, you know, I tell the church, the bar, I'm not the authority here. 00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:51.880 The Bible is the authority. 00:29:51.960 --> 00:29:53.000 I'm just a mall cop. 00:29:53.080 --> 00:29:54.140 All I have is a flashlight. 00:29:54.440 --> 00:29:55.600 I cannot arrest anybody. 00:29:55.760 --> 00:29:57.860 I cannot take anybody down. 00:29:58.100 --> 00:29:59.700 I, that's, that's all I am. 00:29:59.860 --> 00:30:10.680 And, and the people kind of love that at the church, the bar, because they, they feel like I'm not trying to impose anything of, because I'm a pastor, I'm of the authority over them. 00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:14.620 And really relax them to be part of the conversation. 00:30:15.180 --> 00:30:24.780 But I think what the, the main thing for us, because we don't do anything traditional, we don't have a worship in a sense of the music side of it. 00:30:25.160 --> 00:30:26.380 No, we don't have a worship team. 00:30:26.940 --> 00:30:29.880 So we don't do music like we do in a traditional church. 00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:39.980 We don't do, if you look at the most traditional things that we have in a service, we don't do, we don't preach the same way, right? 00:30:39.980 --> 00:30:42.500 Because we, we do more like a conversation style. 00:30:42.740 --> 00:30:43.800 We ask questions. 00:30:43.900 --> 00:30:45.060 We allow people to participate. 00:30:46.340 --> 00:31:00.740 So I think when it comes to what, what, what, the things that's non-negotiable for us, looking at multiplication is that we're never going to deviate from teaching the Bible. 00:31:00.740 --> 00:31:04.700 And I not say only teaching, I would say practical teaching. 00:31:05.500 --> 00:31:08.440 That's, that's another part of it, the church, the bar. 00:31:08.620 --> 00:31:21.320 So we, when we prepare the message, when we ask the questions, the fundamental guide to ask questions, the questions have to be fully related, life related. 00:31:21.540 --> 00:31:26.040 So we teach the Bible and then attach to a life question. 00:31:26.300 --> 00:31:27.960 So I can make the association. 00:31:28.660 --> 00:31:32.560 So Jesus was very, Jesus was the master in practical teaching. 00:31:32.900 --> 00:31:34.040 He was not just the teacher. 00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:35.740 He was not just the rabbi. 00:31:35.860 --> 00:31:38.520 He was like very practical in his teaching. 00:31:39.040 --> 00:31:40.980 That's why we look at the parables, right? 00:31:41.100 --> 00:31:48.880 That's why we look at how he tells the stories and how he, he, he always had the gift to relate to people right immediately because it was practical. 00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:51.880 His teaching was for people to really understand, right? 00:31:51.880 --> 00:31:58.900 He, he, he came down to, to people's capacity to understand because that's how much he care for people. 00:31:59.640 --> 00:32:05.960 So I think that part of the, in the church, the bar is that we look at, we're not going to only teach the Bible. 00:32:05.960 --> 00:32:08.360 It's going to be a very practical teaching on the Bible. 00:32:08.360 --> 00:32:10.040 So we can actually apply right now. 00:32:10.540 --> 00:32:12.260 And we don't ask questions that are not there. 00:32:12.320 --> 00:32:18.780 I mean, we, we, we, we're talking about right now, this few weeks, we're talking about what's church at the church to bar. 00:32:19.760 --> 00:32:26.720 And the last Sunday, the first question I asked right off the bat, it was, what do you fear the most about church? 00:32:26.760 --> 00:32:33.200 Which is a very weird question to ask, but it was amazing how we usually have five minutes for an answer. 00:32:33.200 --> 00:32:46.320 We, that we spent almost 10 minutes on that because everybody had something to say because in reality, people have fears when it comes to church, because at some point in their lives, they got hurt by the church. 00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:48.840 And people are very open. 00:32:48.840 --> 00:32:50.080 People are very honest. 00:32:50.520 --> 00:32:58.440 And it was so interesting to hear that the two major, the top two on the list was a fear to be judged. 00:32:59.080 --> 00:33:01.740 Like people go to church, but they're very feared to be judged. 00:33:01.840 --> 00:33:05.860 And the second one is the secrets that are behind the scenes. 00:33:05.860 --> 00:33:23.820 And, and I think, you know, just as a reference, you got to understand that in the location we are at, a lot of people that go to church, any church or even church, the bar, they started their church experience in the Catholic church. 00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:31.420 So a lot of people made the reference say, Hey, I, I, I was going to church every Sunday and here's what happened. 00:33:31.420 --> 00:33:40.280 And I know there's secrets behind it, but there's people that just went to a regular church and got surprised by also pastors who ended up falling. 00:33:40.780 --> 00:33:54.300 So I think, I think making the Bible, the center of, of your teaching and not deviating from it and making that very practical, it has been a really good recipe for, for us. 00:33:54.300 --> 00:33:59.360 In terms of, in terms of that's a non-negotiable, we're always going to be by the Bible, what the Bible teaches. 00:34:00.100 --> 00:34:00.500 Yeah. 00:34:00.840 --> 00:34:02.920 That let me, let's, let me go a little more practical. 00:34:03.240 --> 00:34:04.520 I love that answer. 00:34:04.780 --> 00:34:10.520 Uh, we can spend all day on that, but, um, let's say location two wants to do music. 00:34:10.740 --> 00:34:12.100 Are you, are you okay with that? 00:34:12.580 --> 00:34:13.200 Oh yeah. 00:34:13.540 --> 00:34:14.200 I'm not opposed. 00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:17.800 I just don't have, I just don't have the structure, the talent to do it. 00:34:17.860 --> 00:34:20.560 So I'm not, you know, I'm not going to force it. 00:34:21.040 --> 00:34:23.720 Uh, and, and people are okay with that. 00:34:23.720 --> 00:34:24.360 I'm okay with that. 00:34:24.520 --> 00:34:24.880 Right. 00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:26.600 But, uh, absolutely. 00:34:26.940 --> 00:34:33.520 If we have, uh, if somebody opened a location, say, Hey, my son is a really good singer and can really do the worships. 00:34:33.520 --> 00:34:34.240 I go for it. 00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:35.740 Uh, do it. 00:34:35.740 --> 00:34:40.180 I'm not, I'm, I'm not going to regulate any of that in any location. 00:34:40.860 --> 00:34:43.780 Uh, if he really works for the group, right? 00:34:43.780 --> 00:34:54.860 It's, I mean, if somebody that cannot hold a tune and doesn't know the guitar has like, think the guitar has seven strings instead of like six or, I mean, it's going to be complicated. 00:34:54.860 --> 00:34:55.340 Right. 00:34:55.340 --> 00:35:04.380 Uh, or I remember doing, uh, worship auditions in church and this musician, musician came in, like, I want to play in the worship team. 00:35:04.380 --> 00:35:08.020 And she, and she started playing the keyboard, but like, let's play this song together. 00:35:08.020 --> 00:35:10.740 And she said, uh, can we just post your app? 00:35:10.820 --> 00:35:12.500 Because I can only play songs in the app. 00:35:13.220 --> 00:35:17.780 We're like, have a nice day. 00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:18.840 Thanks for coming by. 00:35:18.980 --> 00:35:19.120 Yeah. 00:35:19.780 --> 00:35:22.540 You know, here's the number for the student ministry worship guy. 00:35:22.620 --> 00:35:23.760 Why don't you go connect with him? 00:35:24.160 --> 00:35:24.900 That's funny. 00:35:25.580 --> 00:35:42.780 Um, what, um, you know, it's, it's interesting, you know, it's just, I feel like we're focused on music, but yeah, it's interesting that your music is not like music is typically on, on the radar for, uh, um, you know, an essential for worship. 00:35:42.780 --> 00:35:47.600 I, I, for church, I would say, you know, somebody is going to quote, make a joyful noise. 00:35:47.940 --> 00:35:59.060 Uh, and, uh, and, and, and tell me 15 Bible verses and involving musical worship and David, uh, which is why they think that, uh, that music should be part of a church service. 00:35:59.060 --> 00:36:02.920 And so you taking it off the table is, is interesting. 00:36:03.580 --> 00:36:16.600 Um, is there anything like, I don't necessarily want to call that a radical idea, but is there anything else that, that you've, you've kind of have adjusted off the table from what the typical model is? 00:36:17.600 --> 00:36:35.100 Um, yeah, I think, I think, I think music was the bigger one because even in the beginning we, we used to, when we first started, we used to broadcast the music from the main campus. 00:36:35.720 --> 00:36:58.660 Uh, but it's interesting enough, just like we have these discussions before in the online church, digital church, when we stream music to your church, I invite you to just go and look at your, um, uh, uh, analytics, look at your analytics per minute and see what happened in the worship during our live streaming. 00:36:59.560 --> 00:37:05.400 Um, you know, people are making sure the pancakes are not burning and make sure, you know, the diapers are changed and all that. 00:37:05.400 --> 00:37:10.740 And they're waiting for the message to kick in and when message comes in, you see the uptick on the audience. 00:37:10.740 --> 00:37:11.080 Why? 00:37:11.180 --> 00:37:15.800 Because at home on the broadcast music is just not that relevant that people want it to be. 00:37:16.560 --> 00:37:20.000 It's just not that engaging because I'm not, I'm not in the, in the room. 00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:23.200 See, the worship that we do in the room is built. 00:37:24.200 --> 00:37:27.100 To provoke a reaction, a response, right? 00:37:27.200 --> 00:37:33.080 So that's why we have the lights and projection and, uh, and all that, all that environments built for it. 00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:35.480 But in my house, I'm just listening. 00:37:35.480 --> 00:37:38.020 I'm just, I'm just watching a show. 00:37:38.300 --> 00:37:41.520 I'm, I'm watching a music and I want people to get offended with that. 00:37:41.780 --> 00:37:47.720 I know the intention is not to be a show, but I'm sitting in my house watching a nice music on TV. 00:37:48.700 --> 00:37:53.760 And then I'm going to start consuming the message in which that's what I'm coming in for. 00:37:54.220 --> 00:38:07.660 So by watching people at the bar, watching the music and not having any response to it, when we transition from video to live, I was like, there's no reason to bring music if we don't really have music to offer. 00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:14.000 One of the ways that I do that though, um, is we take communion. 00:38:14.540 --> 00:38:22.360 And when we take communion, I actually play a worship song, uh, for people to reflect as they're taking communion. 00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:25.280 And that's kind of like our music portion of it. 00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:38.560 But one thing that I don't know if there's anything else that we removed from, we changed so much from the traditional way of doing church. 00:38:39.180 --> 00:38:42.060 Uh, besides the music is the music is the big one, right? 00:38:42.140 --> 00:38:48.060 I mean, you have the two biggest parts, portions of your service is going to be message and music. 00:38:48.940 --> 00:38:53.420 Uh, and we use that time mostly for the conversations that we have on the Bible. 00:38:54.680 --> 00:38:56.580 Yeah, that's, that's, that's big. 00:38:57.180 --> 00:39:01.240 Um, I could see, oh, some other, that's what I was going to say. 00:39:01.280 --> 00:39:01.680 Excuse me. 00:39:01.800 --> 00:39:05.040 Some other ways it's interesting, even cutting worship out. 00:39:05.960 --> 00:39:09.020 Um, I mean, there's more than one way to skin that cat. 00:39:09.100 --> 00:39:10.300 There's more than one way to scratch that itch. 00:39:10.380 --> 00:39:11.360 Let's be a little less gross. 00:39:11.440 --> 00:39:12.980 There's more than one way to scratch that itch. 00:39:13.300 --> 00:39:14.860 Uh, provide a YouTube playlist. 00:39:15.380 --> 00:39:25.400 Um, put it on, put it on your, like a weekly website where they can digest it on their own or Spotify, but they can take it, take, they can take it with them and they can worship in the car as they're going. 00:39:26.140 --> 00:39:34.140 Um, we actually did a lot of that with some of the micro stuff that we were doing, um, back pre COVID out of the church that I was at. 00:39:34.180 --> 00:39:41.240 And so we had, uh, micro church networks around and, and they didn't have, I mean, they would watch the canned worship half the time. 00:39:41.240 --> 00:39:42.440 And sometimes it wasn't working. 00:39:42.440 --> 00:39:47.740 Some would bring in a guy with a djembe and a classic and a acoustic guitar to play. 00:39:48.420 --> 00:39:53.000 Um, you know, some would do their own YouTube playlist and do casting crowns and whatever. 00:39:53.280 --> 00:39:55.480 Once again, we were very decentralized with that. 00:39:55.780 --> 00:40:01.760 Which I got a lot of heat from a centralized church leading at the centralized micro church network, but that's another conversation. 00:40:02.340 --> 00:40:12.140 Um, but the idea of, Hey, be, be creative with it just because you've seen it one way done in a corporate environment at your, you know, mega church on the corner. 00:40:12.140 --> 00:40:14.660 Doesn't mean that's the way it's the only way to do it. 00:40:15.160 --> 00:40:18.780 And, you know, there's always ways to, to reimagine some things. 00:40:18.780 --> 00:40:25.740 And so, I mean, I give, you know, you know, pats in the back and, uh, praise for, Hey, we really can't do this well. 00:40:26.340 --> 00:40:32.500 Um, so we're, we're not going to, but we're open to, if, if somebody else would, um, that's, that's great. 00:40:33.240 --> 00:40:36.160 Um, man, is, is there anything else we need to cover today? 00:40:36.260 --> 00:40:36.800 Is this good? 00:40:37.580 --> 00:40:39.220 This, I think that's a great conversation. 00:40:39.220 --> 00:40:42.100 There's so much here that we can, you know, keep talking. 00:40:42.200 --> 00:40:43.540 We, we will next few weeks. 00:40:44.140 --> 00:40:46.760 Uh, but I think it's been, it's been good. 00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:59.160 And I think a lot for people to, to, you know, to, to join this conversation, you know, through comments and, and messages, just say, Hey, here's, here's some thoughts on this because we, we have not all figured out. 00:40:59.160 --> 00:41:00.340 We're still, we're still learning. 00:41:00.560 --> 00:41:01.320 We're still exploring. 00:41:01.620 --> 00:41:07.180 We, uh, and we love to network on this because I think that's, that's a big part of it. 00:41:07.900 --> 00:41:08.340 Yeah. 00:41:08.540 --> 00:41:13.460 Uh, Simon says, uh, in, in chat here, Simon's in Germany, by the way. 00:41:13.460 --> 00:41:14.380 Uh, love what you do. 00:41:14.480 --> 00:41:23.520 A friend, pastor of mine opened a jazz bar in our village in Germany, uh, reaching people that would never attend our church. 00:41:23.520 --> 00:41:32.300 And so love that assignment's actually a pastor of beta church, uh, a digital only church in, um, in Germany as well. 00:41:32.300 --> 00:41:38.380 And is starting a, uh, cloud church, which is a, a digital church network up there. 00:41:38.500 --> 00:41:42.600 Simon, we need to talk, uh, not appropriate for this podcast, 00:41:42.600 --> 00:41:47.900 but I need to, I'll, I'll, I'll DM you and, uh, and let's, um, let's find the time to get together. 00:41:48.060 --> 00:41:50.080 Uh, but no, this, this is good, man. 00:41:50.140 --> 00:41:51.520 I have tall, skinny Kiwi. 00:41:51.620 --> 00:41:54.520 I will listen to tall, skinny Kiwis typing something right now. 00:41:54.580 --> 00:41:56.860 I'm going to stall for tall, skinny Kiwi. 00:41:56.980 --> 00:42:00.000 Tall is, uh, uh, your readings from New Zealand. 00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:03.300 That's why I stalled, bro, for you to say hello from New Zealand. 00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:06.020 I was going to say you are from New Zealand. 00:42:06.140 --> 00:42:12.260 I didn't need you to type it in there to, to stall the ending of the podcast, but it's, it's, I was expecting some wisdom. 00:42:12.260 --> 00:42:14.300 Uh, tall, skinny Kiwi is a VR guy. 00:42:14.300 --> 00:42:18.760 And so looking forward, we'll have to have him on at some time talking about VR church. 00:42:18.820 --> 00:42:24.540 We do want to get into, we've been spending a lot of time on, on the micro model, which is due. 00:42:24.680 --> 00:42:35.960 I mean, Joey's a, a friend and has done a great work and does understand digital, but we'll be expanding this into, um, digital, uh, into, and we've got some digital guys on tap. 00:42:35.960 --> 00:42:38.260 And, and, and the VR as well and some others. 00:42:38.260 --> 00:42:47.920 And so we are excited to, uh, to explore unique expressions of, of church and fresh expressions of, of church here in 2024 and beyond. 00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:54.640 And so, Hey, we're going to wrap it for, uh, the church digital episode 303 for, uh, Joey. 00:42:54.940 --> 00:42:56.520 Uh, this is Jeff at the church digital. 00:42:56.520 --> 00:42:58.180 Thanks for jumping on, on the pod. 00:42:58.240 --> 00:42:59.220 We'll see you next time on the show. 00:42:59.980 --> 00:43:00.400 Y'all look good. 00:43:05.960 --> 00:43:06.960 Bye.