WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.940 The other thing that I see in a lot of pastors is that they don't like being dad or husband 00:00:06.940 --> 00:00:15.120 because you don't get the same level of respect or the same level of adulation. 00:00:16.140 --> 00:00:18.260 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:19.220 --> 00:00:23.080 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church, 00:00:23.240 --> 00:00:26.900 but more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. 00:00:27.500 --> 00:00:29.140 Is disciple making possible digitally? 00:00:29.140 --> 00:00:31.600 How should we approach the digital mission field? 00:00:31.900 --> 00:00:34.460 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? 00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:38.800 Oh, and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this? 00:00:39.800 --> 00:00:44.860 Whether you're a big or small church, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours 00:00:44.860 --> 00:00:48.360 learn to be a multiplying church digitally and physically. 00:00:48.680 --> 00:00:50.500 And now here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:00:50.980 --> 00:00:51.700 All right. 00:00:51.820 --> 00:00:57.620 Now, if technology works as it's supposed to, this is episode 307 of the Church Digital Podcast, 00:00:57.620 --> 00:01:02.380 and we are not only recording this, we are broadcasting this on Twitch. 00:01:02.520 --> 00:01:08.160 As a matter of fact, I can confirm that right now we are broadcasting this on Twitch. 00:01:08.280 --> 00:01:10.960 It's showing up here on my little monitor up here on the side. 00:01:11.360 --> 00:01:14.400 So, hey, Twitchers, that's awkward. 00:01:14.600 --> 00:01:20.020 You know, normally we're on Discord, and so I can normally say Discorders, and that's great, 00:01:20.180 --> 00:01:22.500 but it sounds Discorders sounds a little bit like hoarders. 00:01:23.060 --> 00:01:27.540 But so, Twitchers, I don't know if it has that same impact, but we'll pretend and go with it. 00:01:27.580 --> 00:01:31.820 But we are doing episode 307 here at the Church Digital. 00:01:31.820 --> 00:01:36.740 We're doing a deep dive into mental health in digital. 00:01:37.080 --> 00:01:41.560 And so, what are some of the implications of digital ministry towards mental health? 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:46.880 What do we need to be aware of in doing ministry and who we're ministering to in this space? 00:01:47.400 --> 00:01:51.900 So, we've got a really – man, we've got maybe eight episodes scheduled in this season. 00:01:52.580 --> 00:01:58.140 This one, I have a feeling, is going to be my favorite just because I love the people we're talking to here in a little bit. 00:01:58.240 --> 00:02:00.280 But, hey, before we get there, we're doing this on Twitch. 00:02:00.320 --> 00:02:01.240 Just a quick disclaimer. 00:02:02.780 --> 00:02:07.040 We've had some tech issues trying to record in Riverside and Discord. 00:02:07.040 --> 00:02:13.220 And not to say the Church Digital podcast, powered by Riverside, is not to say that Riverside was failing in that. 00:02:13.300 --> 00:02:14.260 Riverside was doing great. 00:02:14.960 --> 00:02:22.080 Just running those two applications simultaneously ended up being a power suck for some of the guests that were on. 00:02:22.140 --> 00:02:23.220 They were causing some problems. 00:02:23.820 --> 00:02:28.780 And so, I don't want to criticize some of our guests and their technological prowess. 00:02:28.780 --> 00:02:38.500 Let's just say they weren't investing their money in the right places like the Mac Studio desktop beast that I have on my desk that everybody should – 00:02:38.500 --> 00:02:40.220 But I'm rambling. 00:02:40.980 --> 00:02:45.380 So, we're doing Riverside streaming into Twitch. 00:02:45.740 --> 00:02:47.200 And so, hopefully, it goes well. 00:02:47.620 --> 00:02:50.820 And at the end of the episode, if I'm cursing under my breath, you'll know that it's not. 00:02:50.920 --> 00:02:54.340 But I'm optimistic where we're going in this season. 00:02:54.340 --> 00:02:57.740 And, you know, yeah, we're doing mental health for a reason because I'm screwed up. 00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:01.460 And if you don't know that, you know, that's the first – right, right, Megan? 00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:06.580 That's the first step of mental health is recognizing that you're screwed up. 00:03:06.760 --> 00:03:10.000 And so, we'll probably get into that here in a little bit in this episode. 00:03:10.180 --> 00:03:12.120 But let me bring in Megan into this. 00:03:12.180 --> 00:03:20.120 Megan Carter is a next steps pastor at – yeah, at – man, I got that right – at First Capital Christian. 00:03:21.400 --> 00:03:29.820 I said maybe last week that First Capital Christian Church Anywhere is one of the top five innovative churches in America. 00:03:30.600 --> 00:03:37.520 And that actually got like some – I don't want to say press, but I've had people follow up with me on that. 00:03:38.100 --> 00:03:40.740 And I'm like, who – what church are you talking about? 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:41.920 And I'm like, oh, my gosh. 00:03:41.980 --> 00:03:46.560 If you need to go, like, go visit, go hang out with their staff. 00:03:46.780 --> 00:03:48.060 And we were just talking offline. 00:03:48.160 --> 00:03:51.000 The culture at First Capital is phenomenal. 00:03:51.160 --> 00:03:52.820 And some of the stuff they're doing is unbelievable. 00:03:52.940 --> 00:03:55.500 So, Megan has really been the brainchild here on this season. 00:03:55.560 --> 00:03:56.840 So, Megan, thanks for jumping on here. 00:03:57.040 --> 00:03:57.720 Yeah, absolutely. 00:03:58.000 --> 00:03:58.660 I'm excited. 00:03:59.940 --> 00:04:06.120 So, what – tell us a little bit about your background, you know, in the mental health, why this is so important to you. 00:04:06.700 --> 00:04:09.420 Yeah, a big thing is I've dealt with it. 00:04:09.820 --> 00:04:11.480 I've dealt with anxiety and depression. 00:04:11.820 --> 00:04:19.860 And so, growing up in the church, in the church culture, you know, in the early 2000s, it wasn't talked about. 00:04:19.860 --> 00:04:23.680 So, I kind of felt like I was the only one struggling with this. 00:04:23.760 --> 00:04:24.560 I wasn't a good Christian. 00:04:25.780 --> 00:04:31.880 As I started to realize that, like, it's not all that crazy. 00:04:32.200 --> 00:04:35.000 Like, a lot of people deal with anxiety and different things. 00:04:35.700 --> 00:04:43.940 I went to a counselor, talked to them, and then just really started to have a passion to help other people just because I felt like I was the only one and realized I wasn't. 00:04:44.260 --> 00:04:46.820 So, if I can help other people realize they're not the only one. 00:04:47.400 --> 00:04:52.300 So, I started going through training with the AACC through Light University, got all that. 00:04:52.300 --> 00:05:04.420 So, now I get to meet with people and coach them on just how to walk through and journey through, you know, their healing journey in life and just kind of the chaos that comes around us, especially in this day and age. 00:05:04.520 --> 00:05:07.880 So, getting to do that as a part of my job here at the church is incredible. 00:05:08.500 --> 00:05:09.180 And I love that. 00:05:09.280 --> 00:05:11.640 I love to get to share that passion with other people. 00:05:11.760 --> 00:05:16.900 So, that's why I'm so excited about being able to share this and walk through digitally how that looks like as well. 00:05:17.460 --> 00:05:19.380 Yeah, and so, thank you, Megan, for sharing that. 00:05:19.440 --> 00:05:23.660 The topic today where we're digging into is compassion fatigue. 00:05:23.660 --> 00:05:33.400 And so, you know, right off the bat, this is going to be an opportunity for some really transparent, introspective self-reflection. 00:05:33.760 --> 00:05:43.220 And so, to get anything out of this conversation, like, let's just take a moment here and be honest with ourselves towards that. 00:05:43.300 --> 00:05:52.880 And so, the man who is best at this on the planet, in my opinion, is John Pyle, which is why I'm so glad we got him into this conversation coming in. 00:05:52.920 --> 00:05:54.600 Hey, John, you want to say hey and introduce yourself? 00:05:55.720 --> 00:05:57.500 Why, hello, I'm John Pyle. 00:05:57.780 --> 00:06:08.180 As Jeff, I appreciate the introduction, but I know a lot about our topic today because I've experienced a lot of our topic today. 00:06:08.180 --> 00:06:11.760 But I'm the community care pastor at City Church in San Antonio, Texas. 00:06:12.600 --> 00:06:14.380 And I love Jeff. 00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:15.180 Call him El Jefe. 00:06:15.580 --> 00:06:17.940 And Megan is awesome as well. 00:06:19.100 --> 00:06:25.320 Yeah, there's too many people in life that call me El Jefe, but that's a completely other story towards that. 00:06:25.480 --> 00:06:28.560 But I'm really looking forward to getting into this. 00:06:28.900 --> 00:06:30.360 And so, John, thanks for joining us. 00:06:30.440 --> 00:06:34.160 Megan, thanks for coming back and helping kind of put this season together. 00:06:34.320 --> 00:06:36.260 So, hey, let's just dig into it. 00:06:36.280 --> 00:06:39.060 Episode 307, Digital and Mental Health. 00:06:39.800 --> 00:06:42.380 We're talking compassion fatigue. 00:06:43.660 --> 00:06:46.840 So, what are we thinking here, Megan? 00:06:47.080 --> 00:06:50.000 Kind of take over here and let us get started. 00:06:50.620 --> 00:06:54.080 Yeah, I mean, I think the best place to start is let's define it. 00:06:54.220 --> 00:07:02.140 Let's define what compassion fatigue is because I think people are hearing about it more, but we've heard about burnout a lot, right? 00:07:02.580 --> 00:07:07.560 And so, John, would you say that burnout and compassion fatigue are the same thing? 00:07:07.740 --> 00:07:08.420 Are they different? 00:07:08.920 --> 00:07:10.060 Let's define that a little bit. 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:15.100 Yeah, I would say that they're at the very least blood relatives. 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:16.440 They are related. 00:07:16.700 --> 00:07:23.400 If you took a DNA test from compassion fatigue, it would match the 23andMe with burnout for sure. 00:07:23.560 --> 00:07:33.140 But especially when you're in a caring profession like pastoring or ministry at any level, they really look almost identical. 00:07:33.620 --> 00:07:36.220 Yeah, no, I completely agree. 00:07:36.220 --> 00:07:43.300 I think it's one of those things that you don't realize it's happened until it's already happening to you. 00:07:43.860 --> 00:07:53.300 And so, it's really important to have some things in your life that you can kind of revert to and find out like, oh, am I stressed? 00:07:53.460 --> 00:07:55.680 Or like, is this leading to a different place? 00:07:56.100 --> 00:08:05.520 So, I think, you know, just talking about your own experience, sharing, like, how you've seen that in your own life, and just kind of explain that to everyone. 00:08:06.620 --> 00:08:10.100 Yeah, well, my role, community care pastor. 00:08:10.100 --> 00:08:16.660 So, that includes weddings, funerals, hospital visits, general pastoral care. 00:08:17.140 --> 00:08:20.740 I help lead our welcome team, our prayer team, marriage ministry, right? 00:08:20.820 --> 00:08:25.960 And you're starting to hear all of the, like, relational, personal kind of things. 00:08:26.120 --> 00:08:31.140 And so, there have been a number of times, in fact, one just happened recently. 00:08:31.140 --> 00:08:38.840 Right before I went on vacation, I was doing my third funeral or fourth funeral over the last, like, four or five weeks. 00:08:39.660 --> 00:08:41.780 And they were really stacked up. 00:08:41.780 --> 00:08:46.080 And I was just at the funeral going, I am done. 00:08:46.920 --> 00:08:53.200 And I am at a place right now where it is very hard to do this job. 00:08:53.300 --> 00:08:57.220 And so, for me, it was really hard to write the sermon for the funeral. 00:08:57.860 --> 00:09:01.920 It was really hard to get out of bed the day of the funeral. 00:09:02.200 --> 00:09:06.140 It was really hard to get dressed in my suit to come to the funeral. 00:09:06.880 --> 00:09:11.100 It was, it was, it looked like, in some ways, procrastination. 00:09:13.020 --> 00:09:22.260 And of, you know, and there have been times when I've experienced compassion fatigue in the past where I was writing the sermon up until a few minutes before the funeral. 00:09:22.580 --> 00:09:29.620 Just because I could not sit down at a desk and type out the words that needed to be typed out. 00:09:29.800 --> 00:09:31.820 And it wasn't because I didn't feel something. 00:09:32.060 --> 00:09:34.800 It just wasn't transitioning out. 00:09:35.020 --> 00:09:36.760 And I just felt like I was empty. 00:09:37.660 --> 00:09:41.300 And so, that's when I realized that my vacation was scheduled perfectly. 00:09:42.360 --> 00:09:44.360 Because I needed to get away. 00:09:45.160 --> 00:09:48.320 And, you know, ministering, and here's the thing. 00:09:48.400 --> 00:09:52.180 I actually like funerals way more than weddings, honestly. 00:09:53.620 --> 00:09:58.760 But that was a sign to me going, oh, I am empty right now. 00:09:58.840 --> 00:10:01.100 And I don't know that I have what it takes in the tank. 00:10:01.420 --> 00:10:08.120 To do this to the degree that I would like to was a realization that I was experiencing some serious compassion fatigue. 00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:14.500 Yeah, for me, for my compassion fatigue, it shows up. 00:10:14.600 --> 00:10:16.600 You know, I'm a get it done guy. 00:10:16.680 --> 00:10:17.760 People come with me ideas. 00:10:17.860 --> 00:10:18.880 And I'm an executor. 00:10:19.060 --> 00:10:22.640 And so, like, that's basically what a lot of my church staffing would be. 00:10:23.640 --> 00:10:29.820 And, like, there are seasons where it's like, don't, like, don't come to me with more ideas. 00:10:30.380 --> 00:10:32.020 That's just, that's more work for me. 00:10:32.160 --> 00:10:33.420 I don't care. 00:10:33.880 --> 00:10:37.180 There's nothing about this that I want to do. 00:10:37.280 --> 00:10:40.680 And, like, I start to distance myself. 00:10:40.800 --> 00:10:44.860 I start to become more introverted, not wanting to be around people. 00:10:45.400 --> 00:10:49.420 And not in, like, a healthy, let me get some distance for introspective. 00:10:49.420 --> 00:10:57.100 Like, just leave me the crap alone, close the door at the office, and try to, like, exclude myself. 00:10:57.440 --> 00:11:06.940 And it's funny, like, the more, this is for me, like, the more inward I get, almost it feels at that point, it's like the more unhealthy I am. 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:16.400 Because I'm just perpetuating the same bitterness, hostility, guilt, frustration. 00:11:17.860 --> 00:11:20.580 Like, you know, almost it's the season of, I'm not good. 00:11:20.700 --> 00:11:22.400 And I realize, like, I'm not good enough. 00:11:22.940 --> 00:11:30.480 And so, all of a sudden, when I start playing the I'm not good enough game, like, that's a hard game for me to get out of once we get started into this. 00:11:32.160 --> 00:11:38.820 Yeah, it's one of those things that, as, if you're caring for people at all, whatever way that may be. 00:11:38.920 --> 00:11:40.660 Like, we see it a lot in pastors. 00:11:41.020 --> 00:11:44.360 And, you know, they don't get to be able to take that off. 00:11:44.420 --> 00:11:46.420 They're always on call for things, right? 00:11:47.020 --> 00:11:50.620 And for people who are ministering online, it's the same. 00:11:50.740 --> 00:11:52.280 You're always on. 00:11:53.060 --> 00:12:04.200 So, when you get to that point, and you realize whether you're sitting across from a person, or you're online chatting with a person, and you're like, physically, I care. 00:12:04.840 --> 00:12:06.400 Mentally, I don't. 00:12:06.560 --> 00:12:07.920 And that sounds really bad. 00:12:08.440 --> 00:12:12.340 But, like, you get to that point that you realize, oh, I'm just going through the motions. 00:12:12.680 --> 00:12:15.200 I'm doing the things that I know I need to do. 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:19.780 And that's one of the things that, through the training I've done, like, they walked through that. 00:12:19.820 --> 00:12:27.020 Because they're like, when you're counseling people, when you're coaching people, you're going to, if you don't take care of yourself, then you're going to get there. 00:12:27.740 --> 00:12:33.920 So, as those ministering, as those caring for other people, what are some warning signs? 00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:35.400 I know you guys talked about a few of them. 00:12:35.460 --> 00:12:43.620 But what are some other warning signs that people need to just kind of keep on their radar to make sure that they can catch this before it gets too far? 00:12:44.160 --> 00:12:44.380 Yeah. 00:12:44.500 --> 00:12:47.640 A big one for me, procrastination. 00:12:47.760 --> 00:12:49.400 I mentioned that one, right? 00:12:49.760 --> 00:12:59.720 That just means that my tank is, you know, when it comes to the kind of work, and I should differentiate, I am a bit of a procrastinator, generally. 00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:04.080 And so, it's not like every time I procrastinate, it means this. 00:13:04.160 --> 00:13:19.400 But when I procrastinate about work that I'm passionate about, and that I love dearly, it tells me that my body, I'm not in the right space to be able to engage, to go to the level that I need to go to. 00:13:20.560 --> 00:13:21.780 So, procrastination is one. 00:13:21.780 --> 00:13:35.680 And I think, similar to Jeff's point, disengagement from my family, because when you do, especially if you do, it's really any role in ministry, even if it's a technical role, you're dealing with a lot of people, right? 00:13:36.280 --> 00:13:47.380 And so, you are expending a lot of those, for lack of a better term, like, compassion points at work, and you don't have any when you come home. 00:13:48.160 --> 00:13:55.640 And so, I mean, you know, I'm either disengaging, I'm short with my kids, I'm glued to my phone. 00:13:55.900 --> 00:13:56.120 Yeah. 00:13:57.000 --> 00:14:01.480 And just not at all engaged, and that's it. 00:14:01.520 --> 00:14:08.520 It's almost like retreating into a cave, even though you're, like, out there and doing that. 00:14:08.600 --> 00:14:11.960 So, that disengagement, that procrastination, those are big ones. 00:14:12.760 --> 00:14:27.760 I do think, I do think there are, you know, everybody is a little bit different personality-wise, but I do think there are physical connections to compassion fatigue as well. 00:14:28.600 --> 00:14:37.620 I think there will be, I think, at least for me, and it's hard for me to speak for other people, but I think physically, I can feel tension. 00:14:38.620 --> 00:14:48.940 For me, it's my neck, like, my neck and my shoulders get a whole bunch of tension, and that could just be stress, but that is, I'm stressed. 00:14:49.460 --> 00:14:51.560 If you're in ministry, you're stressed all the time, right? 00:14:51.680 --> 00:15:01.700 Like, that's just the next, Sunday comes with remarkable regularity, with remarkable regularity, you have a Sunday service, but it feels different when I'm experiencing compassion fatigue, 00:15:01.700 --> 00:15:11.740 because I can feel the physical is an outflow of the tightness and the lack of, just the lack of empathy that I have. 00:15:12.420 --> 00:15:15.760 I almost, I want to ask a quick follow-up question on this, Megan. 00:15:15.760 --> 00:15:35.440 I was actually sitting, I had a conversation today with a pastor talking about the, and I'm going to use this softly, gently, this conversation, physical ailments in sin, physical ailments in struggles. 00:15:37.320 --> 00:15:39.880 And, you know, biblically, there is a connection there. 00:15:40.360 --> 00:15:45.580 You know, some of our charismatic pastors are more familiar with that than some of our Southern Baptist pastors, which is fine. 00:15:46.880 --> 00:15:52.900 Like, maybe it's not sin, but maybe it's doubt, it's struggles in carrying that physical weight. 00:15:53.460 --> 00:15:55.700 John, how do you kind of feel on some of that? 00:15:55.780 --> 00:15:57.540 What is that vibe with you? 00:15:57.540 --> 00:16:13.040 I think there are, we want, a big part of what I would say, like, modern Western theology and thinking has been separating body, mind, emotions, and soul. 00:16:13.620 --> 00:16:16.060 And we think of these things as separate things. 00:16:16.500 --> 00:16:27.060 And whether you know it or not, it's kind of built into some of the more hardcore fundamentalist reform kind of movements where it's like, educate the mind, brother. 00:16:27.160 --> 00:16:28.060 That's what it's all about. 00:16:28.060 --> 00:16:38.960 And our focus on intelligence and knowledge and gaining knowledge of everything, which is by no means bad, but you, but these are all integrated parts of who we are. 00:16:39.260 --> 00:16:40.780 And these are all integrated. 00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:46.060 And so, I don't think there's a way you can separate the physical from the spiritual. 00:16:47.020 --> 00:16:50.800 We're incarnations, we're incarnational beings. 00:16:50.900 --> 00:16:52.960 Like, we exist all of it together. 00:16:53.420 --> 00:16:59.260 And so, to me, it would be crazy to say sin doesn't physically affect our bodies. 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:06.020 Now, I would never say, it's like the Pharisees being like, okay, who sinned, this person's parents or him, right? 00:17:06.100 --> 00:17:08.460 Like, that's not, that's not what I'm saying. 00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:14.740 But I will say that I think everything we do affects mental, emotional, physical. 00:17:15.740 --> 00:17:19.660 And so, even if it's not, quote unquote, a sin thing, right? 00:17:19.660 --> 00:17:34.340 Like, even if it's just compassion fatigue that we're talking about, your body to be a fully whole human being, as I believe Jesus wanted us to be and guided us to be. 00:17:34.580 --> 00:17:41.000 And all of his, whether it's the Sermon on the Mount, whatever it is that he's teaching, he wants us to be integrated. 00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:46.720 And he wants our physical to match the spiritual and our spiritual to match the physical, right? 00:17:47.220 --> 00:17:51.580 He doesn't want us to wash the outside of the cup and forsake the inside of the cup. 00:17:52.340 --> 00:17:55.240 I don't think he's saying, don't wash the outside of the cup. 00:17:55.320 --> 00:17:58.200 I think he's saying, think of the inside of the cup as well. 00:17:58.400 --> 00:18:00.580 And those things flow out of each other, right? 00:18:00.760 --> 00:18:06.020 From, he talks about it, from a good tree comes good fruit, from a bad tree comes bad fruit. 00:18:06.200 --> 00:18:09.960 And so, he uses it in a binary of good and bad. 00:18:10.600 --> 00:18:21.220 I think if we, let's remove it from a binary of good and bad, and just to say, from an unhealthy tree, from a burnt out tree comes burnt out fruit. 00:18:22.180 --> 00:18:27.540 From a tree that has, is in compassion fatigue comes compassion fatigue fruit. 00:18:28.340 --> 00:18:38.180 And so, I think from, you know, whether you're struggling with mental health issues, even mental illness, like, again, I don't want to over-spiritualize and say, 00:18:38.180 --> 00:18:43.100 hey, somebody who's, you know, bipolar, oh, that's actually a sin problem. 00:18:43.460 --> 00:18:49.660 But it is also impossible to separate those things completely, because sometimes you need medicine, counseling, and prayer. 00:18:50.020 --> 00:18:51.600 You don't just need one of those things. 00:18:51.900 --> 00:18:51.940 Right. 00:18:52.900 --> 00:18:54.040 Totally agree with that. 00:18:54.100 --> 00:18:54.740 This is beautiful. 00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:55.640 Go ahead, Megan. 00:18:56.180 --> 00:19:01.840 Yeah, no, I, like, you're speaking everything I ever say in my heart, like, with people is the whole person. 00:19:02.460 --> 00:19:07.220 And there's a book that I read recently, it's talking about being tired and how to combat that. 00:19:07.220 --> 00:19:10.040 But looking at it as, are you tired physically? 00:19:10.360 --> 00:19:11.120 Are you tired mentally? 00:19:11.120 --> 00:19:12.180 Are you tired spiritually? 00:19:12.180 --> 00:19:13.720 Or are you tired emotionally? 00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:16.340 And sometimes those will pop up as different ways. 00:19:16.340 --> 00:19:21.460 Like, you can be tired emotionally, but physically you're showing symptoms and showing signs. 00:19:21.940 --> 00:19:26.440 And so, really, like, narrowing that down to find out what's really, like, going on. 00:19:26.500 --> 00:19:27.960 Like, what's deeper behind that? 00:19:28.020 --> 00:19:34.400 Because it's, yeah, we get tired of just, like, you get tired of after you're giving and giving and giving and giving. 00:19:34.800 --> 00:19:39.720 So, you need to receive something and you need to be able to find that rest and that peace. 00:19:39.820 --> 00:19:42.060 And so, where specifically is that? 00:19:42.200 --> 00:19:48.340 And I think even with compassion fatigue, it can hit in those different areas as well. 00:19:48.340 --> 00:19:54.720 So, finding which way and maybe, like, going just straight on a vacation isn't going to help that. 00:19:55.480 --> 00:20:00.600 So, I would love to walk through some, like, different ways that you can combat it. 00:20:00.660 --> 00:20:02.380 Like, it's not going to be an end-all, be-all. 00:20:03.120 --> 00:20:05.320 Everybody's not going to be able to, like, do the same thing. 00:20:05.400 --> 00:20:07.900 It's not a cookie cutter to just, like, solve all the issues. 00:20:08.040 --> 00:20:12.240 But what are some things that people could do if they realize this is going on in their lives? 00:20:13.320 --> 00:20:13.680 Yeah. 00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:16.700 Jeff, I think you said the commenter's white beard. 00:20:17.020 --> 00:20:18.920 And he was bringing up, I'm assuming he. 00:20:19.040 --> 00:20:20.200 Sorry, I can't see your picture. 00:20:20.860 --> 00:20:22.340 Oh, he's definitely a human. 00:20:22.460 --> 00:20:22.600 Yeah. 00:20:22.780 --> 00:20:23.260 Yeah, you're good. 00:20:23.460 --> 00:20:23.620 Yeah. 00:20:24.520 --> 00:20:26.260 White beard made me think he. 00:20:26.260 --> 00:20:33.140 But, you know, just making sure it's one – you might not be able to take a vacation. 00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:44.000 I also understand I come at a pretty privileged role as an associate pastor at a pretty large church where I have backup and there are redundancies so that I can be absent. 00:20:44.320 --> 00:20:51.260 And there are people that don't experience that, especially those who are on the more technical side and maybe a little less public. 00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:54.720 And so, you can't always get away from it. 00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:55.180 Yeah. 00:20:55.180 --> 00:21:03.620 And that's the scary – that's sometimes the scary part in my experience of ministry of you're experiencing compassion fatigue, but what if that vacation isn't on the calendar? 00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:05.200 What if it's not there? 00:21:05.220 --> 00:21:18.560 And I have a bad habit of running myself to empty and then needing to take a dramatic – maybe not drastic, but dramatic break, right? 00:21:18.620 --> 00:21:20.040 And it turns into a thing. 00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:31.480 But what I've been working on is kind of integrating some of these practices and rhythms so that I am refueling regularly in my actual life, right? 00:21:32.060 --> 00:21:40.640 Because you can take a vacation, but if you come back to the same stressful thing, you're just going to – it's just a matter of time before you experience compassion fatigue. 00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:47.720 And so, some of the practices is – and to me, it's not a one-size-fits-all thing. 00:21:48.280 --> 00:21:49.800 And everybody has different things. 00:21:50.040 --> 00:21:53.420 The vocabulary we use in our family is what fills your tank. 00:21:54.360 --> 00:21:55.400 What fills your tank? 00:21:55.540 --> 00:21:58.020 Is this going to be a tank filler or a tank drainer? 00:21:58.580 --> 00:22:03.800 And so, sometimes I do – sometimes I'll text my wife, I'm going to do some movie therapy today. 00:22:04.220 --> 00:22:07.760 I'm either going to go home or I'm going to go to the movies and I'm going to watch a movie alone. 00:22:07.900 --> 00:22:11.300 That's not a very spiritual thing, quote-unquote, right? 00:22:11.340 --> 00:22:16.960 But that is something that I know will fill my tank and will give me – and it's something just for me. 00:22:17.140 --> 00:22:18.700 I'm not performing for anybody. 00:22:19.120 --> 00:22:20.560 I'm not serving anybody. 00:22:21.080 --> 00:22:21.900 It's a break. 00:22:22.040 --> 00:22:25.280 And so, that is one of the, like, non-spiritual practices. 00:22:26.140 --> 00:22:29.780 Sometimes I'll play video games with my kids and, hey, we're on Twitch. 00:22:29.900 --> 00:22:30.560 I stink. 00:22:31.400 --> 00:22:33.100 I am not good. 00:22:34.040 --> 00:22:34.980 Not good at all. 00:22:35.320 --> 00:22:37.340 I drag down our averages. 00:22:38.280 --> 00:22:41.180 You know, my kill-death ratio in Call of Duty is horrible. 00:22:41.500 --> 00:22:43.200 My Fortnite performance stinks. 00:22:43.560 --> 00:22:44.680 Not good at anything. 00:22:45.740 --> 00:22:56.780 But my point is just there to help them level up weapons or to help them get the V-Bucks that they want for this or to sacrifice so that they can potentially win. 00:22:57.240 --> 00:22:59.900 It's just – it's something that I do for them. 00:23:00.040 --> 00:23:01.000 And we just hang out. 00:23:01.180 --> 00:23:03.200 And it's silly and it's fun. 00:23:03.780 --> 00:23:06.060 And it's not asking anything of me. 00:23:06.580 --> 00:23:08.540 And so, there are spiritual practices. 00:23:08.820 --> 00:23:10.280 I'm sure we could dive into those. 00:23:10.360 --> 00:23:15.440 They're really good at whatever your personal spiritual refueling practices with God are. 00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:17.540 And I would encourage you to continue practicing those. 00:23:18.080 --> 00:23:20.580 But I just – I look for tank-filling practices. 00:23:20.740 --> 00:23:22.200 Oh, taking a walk with my wife. 00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:22.880 That's free. 00:23:23.620 --> 00:23:25.980 Like, hey, it's 100 degrees here in Texas. 00:23:26.100 --> 00:23:27.960 So, at 10 o'clock, it actually cools down. 00:23:28.060 --> 00:23:30.000 So, maybe we take a walk when the kids are in bed. 00:23:30.260 --> 00:23:33.380 Now, I have a kid that's 9 and a kid that's about to turn 13. 00:23:33.380 --> 00:23:35.260 So, we can leave them in the house. 00:23:35.460 --> 00:23:37.320 We couldn't do that for a long time. 00:23:37.540 --> 00:23:41.040 And so, that wasn't an avenue available to me at that time. 00:23:41.100 --> 00:23:43.300 But one has just opened up that I can do that. 00:23:43.960 --> 00:23:51.880 And so, it's these tank-filling practices that I try to build into my everyday life so that I don't build a life that I need to take a vacation from. 00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:55.360 Because there's just never enough money to take enough vacations. 00:23:56.100 --> 00:23:59.440 Let me ask a practical on this just because I'm curious. 00:24:00.220 --> 00:24:08.820 Now, you were a digital pastor for a stretch during COVID, a couple years, two, two and a half years, I'm trying to remember. 00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:09.480 I was a digital – yeah. 00:24:10.260 --> 00:24:14.180 I was a digital pastor up until a few months before COVID. 00:24:14.560 --> 00:24:14.840 Okay. 00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:21.360 Non-digital pastor for a little while, then transitioned back because we had geniusly decided that, you know what? 00:24:21.380 --> 00:24:23.700 The world's going away from some of this digital stuff. 00:24:23.940 --> 00:24:25.160 We don't need a digital pastor. 00:24:25.600 --> 00:24:28.040 And then COVID happened and we kind of – yeah. 00:24:28.180 --> 00:24:29.840 We were ahead of the curve. 00:24:30.540 --> 00:24:31.940 Buy high, sell low. 00:24:32.100 --> 00:24:33.260 Buy high, sell low. 00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:34.380 That's awesome. 00:24:34.600 --> 00:24:36.160 I didn't realize the pre part. 00:24:36.340 --> 00:24:37.240 That's really good. 00:24:37.620 --> 00:24:39.060 But, you know, thank you very much. 00:24:39.300 --> 00:24:44.240 These devices, like, they don't go off at 5 p.m. 00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:48.220 It's – the disconnect is 24-7, 365. 00:24:48.460 --> 00:24:51.820 It's always on, especially during COVID. 00:24:52.580 --> 00:24:58.980 How did you – in some of our digital pastors that are pastoring in digital communities, asynchronous doesn't stop. 00:24:59.540 --> 00:25:01.480 So how did you separate? 00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:05.680 How did you get that piece that we're talking about here? 00:25:07.080 --> 00:25:15.760 Yeah, that's a great – it's a fantastic question, and one I really had to ask myself, because sometimes your, quote, unquote, best ministry is 1 a.m. 00:25:16.140 --> 00:25:16.380 Yeah. 00:25:16.900 --> 00:25:27.260 When somebody is really – because here – so part of doing marriage ministry as well, your fights don't happen at 7 o'clock on Monday when you come in to do the marriage program. 00:25:27.660 --> 00:25:30.960 They don't happen at 11.30 on Sunday morning when you walk into church. 00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:32.740 Your fights happen in the middle of the week. 00:25:33.060 --> 00:25:36.760 It's the other 167 hours of the week where all these things are happening. 00:25:36.760 --> 00:25:44.560 And so it is super important to have the kind of connection that you want to serve people. 00:25:44.680 --> 00:25:50.220 So I 100% – shout out to my digital pastors out there, having lived that life. 00:25:50.360 --> 00:25:52.860 And you can always check Facebook stats. 00:25:53.040 --> 00:25:55.380 You can always be developing strategy for Instagram. 00:25:55.640 --> 00:25:57.540 You can always be thinking of TikTok ideas. 00:25:57.880 --> 00:25:59.780 It's a 24-7 thing. 00:25:59.780 --> 00:26:08.120 And so I would say two things, and I'll do a practical living within that flow and a practical trying to help guide people out of that flow. 00:26:09.400 --> 00:26:15.660 Kind of in the flow, I kept as good of boundaries as I could. 00:26:15.780 --> 00:26:18.440 Like, I didn't charge my phone in my bedroom. 00:26:19.980 --> 00:26:21.600 I bought an alarm clock. 00:26:21.900 --> 00:26:22.340 Wow. 00:26:23.080 --> 00:26:26.980 I bought an alarm clock and was just like, this is what's going to wake me up. 00:26:26.980 --> 00:26:31.700 Because the excuse that I always gave was, well, what if something happens? 00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:34.000 And it's like, you know what? 00:26:34.420 --> 00:26:35.640 It's probably going to be okay. 00:26:36.360 --> 00:26:43.580 And so I would just charge my phone outside in the kitchen or whatever and wake up with an alarm clock. 00:26:43.580 --> 00:26:50.560 And that kept me from that late-night scrolling, the late-night kind of getting involved in something. 00:26:50.780 --> 00:27:00.900 And what I found with social media especially is that if I wanted to be busy, if I wanted to dive in, I could. 00:27:01.080 --> 00:27:04.780 But I had more control over it than I thought I did. 00:27:05.320 --> 00:27:10.160 And this might hurt some digital pastors, but I'm just going to say it because I had to live it. 00:27:10.680 --> 00:27:14.440 I was pretending to be a victim when I was actually the instigator. 00:27:15.800 --> 00:27:19.760 And I was kind of pretending to be like, oh, I'm a digital pastor, babe. 00:27:20.180 --> 00:27:22.140 I just have to take care of this. 00:27:22.380 --> 00:27:23.220 I have to do this. 00:27:23.220 --> 00:27:31.940 But what I was really trying to feed in me is the need to help people, to feel like I'm a valued human being. 00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:37.920 And so I had this deep psychological issue of a pathological need to help. 00:27:38.260 --> 00:27:48.280 And my personality type is if I have time to chill and I'm not in a healthy place, I'm going to seek out a way to help people. 00:27:48.800 --> 00:27:52.060 I'm going to get involved in my messiest friends live. 00:27:52.700 --> 00:28:01.040 And so what I had to realize that about myself and I had to ask the question of, does this really need to be done right now? 00:28:01.400 --> 00:28:03.760 Or can't it really like disconnect? 00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:08.500 And I just had to set some boundaries with some accountability from people that mattered. 00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:13.120 And I mean, I've had friends contact me and be like, you got to get off Twitter right now, man. 00:28:14.220 --> 00:28:17.660 Like, I can tell it's not helping. 00:28:18.740 --> 00:28:19.600 Take a break. 00:28:20.420 --> 00:28:26.540 And that was painful and in some ways brutal. 00:28:26.920 --> 00:28:27.940 But you know what's crazy? 00:28:28.100 --> 00:28:32.280 The world didn't fall apart when I woke up with my alarm clock. 00:28:32.520 --> 00:28:34.140 Everything was okay. 00:28:34.780 --> 00:28:35.700 It worked out. 00:28:35.980 --> 00:28:37.940 You're convincing me. 00:28:38.760 --> 00:28:41.100 I mean, I'm going to be transparent here. 00:28:41.620 --> 00:28:44.880 I charge my phone two inches away from my head. 00:28:45.620 --> 00:28:47.220 Literally in my bed, there's a shelf. 00:28:47.380 --> 00:28:49.240 And right behind my pillow is where my phone charges. 00:28:49.380 --> 00:28:53.160 I just need to reach back and grab it, which I do often in the middle of the night. 00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:53.940 I don't sleep well. 00:28:54.480 --> 00:28:56.000 So I hear you. 00:28:56.480 --> 00:28:58.040 I can charge it somewhere else. 00:28:58.040 --> 00:29:01.860 I already have another device that can serve as an alarm that doesn't have a screen. 00:29:01.960 --> 00:29:03.780 That's not going to be the doom scroll in the middle of the night. 00:29:04.100 --> 00:29:05.240 So that can work. 00:29:05.980 --> 00:29:11.080 And the little voice in my head says, but what if? 00:29:12.080 --> 00:29:16.600 So my question for you is, is there a time where you do grab the phone? 00:29:16.860 --> 00:29:20.760 Is there, hey, the Holy Spirit is telling you to go grab it and you go check something? 00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:23.560 Or like, is it, for you, is it up? 00:29:23.960 --> 00:29:25.600 It can wait till 8 a.m. 00:29:25.820 --> 00:29:30.380 Like, what is your point of no return kind of on that? 00:29:31.320 --> 00:29:31.640 Yeah. 00:29:31.640 --> 00:29:35.660 And just so everybody knows, and just to keep it real, 00:29:35.980 --> 00:29:39.860 I moved my phone back into the bedroom once I stopped being a digital pastor. 00:29:40.360 --> 00:29:40.900 Oh, I see. 00:29:41.040 --> 00:29:41.480 It actually... 00:29:41.480 --> 00:29:43.040 You copped out. 00:29:43.640 --> 00:29:44.140 No, I'm kidding. 00:29:44.520 --> 00:29:44.920 Yeah. 00:29:45.120 --> 00:29:47.760 No, it actually started when my mom was sick, right? 00:29:47.800 --> 00:29:50.400 And I was worried that in the middle of the night, we'd get the phone call. 00:29:50.980 --> 00:29:56.120 But I actually played that scenario out, Jeff, of going, what if? 00:29:56.120 --> 00:30:01.660 And then I thought about all the potential what ifs and talked with my most logical friends. 00:30:02.180 --> 00:30:14.660 And there is a one in 100,000 chance that somebody needs to see a pastor at 1.34 a.m. 00:30:16.560 --> 00:30:21.600 There's just not a scenario short of a terrorist says, 00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:24.360 you have to call your pastor or I'm going to shoot your family. 00:30:25.340 --> 00:30:27.860 I mean, because we talked about hospitalizations. 00:30:28.320 --> 00:30:31.140 We talked about, oh, somebody goes in the... 00:30:31.140 --> 00:30:32.460 What about if somebody goes in the hospital? 00:30:33.180 --> 00:30:37.260 Well, they don't need you there when they get checked into the ER. 00:30:38.300 --> 00:30:41.220 That is not the best time for a pastoral visit. 00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:42.820 Yeah, you probably can't even get in. 00:30:42.980 --> 00:30:49.460 Yeah, or somebody's having a mental health crisis in the middle of the night, 00:30:49.840 --> 00:30:54.260 which does happen, but there are other people. 00:30:54.620 --> 00:30:59.360 And in my case, as a non-degreed mental health care worker, 00:30:59.520 --> 00:31:01.540 like I'm not a mental health care worker, I'm a pastor. 00:31:02.140 --> 00:31:05.520 There's probably someone better for them to talk to. 00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:12.320 And as hard as it is, I can't be on all the time. 00:31:12.980 --> 00:31:17.600 And so they understand that because I've had conversations with people to say, 00:31:17.700 --> 00:31:19.780 hey, man, I really want to talk to you. 00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:21.780 I know you're in a crisis right now. 00:31:22.100 --> 00:31:25.420 I'm having dinner and my family's here. 00:31:25.520 --> 00:31:27.300 I would love to talk to you after dinner. 00:31:27.740 --> 00:31:29.340 I'd love to talk to you tomorrow morning. 00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:30.600 Here's when I'm available. 00:31:31.420 --> 00:31:32.460 I love you. 00:31:32.760 --> 00:31:33.760 I care about you. 00:31:34.320 --> 00:31:35.100 Let's talk. 00:31:37.320 --> 00:31:43.660 And the people that have been the most open to that have been the people in the worst situations. 00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:46.780 Because they're like, well, I don't want to interrupt your family time. 00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:48.700 Like, I want to talk to you when you have time. 00:31:49.700 --> 00:31:56.760 Other people are more manipulators that just want your time because they think they're entitled to it. 00:31:57.320 --> 00:32:04.860 And so the only thing, and so going back to the reason that I moved the phone out of the bedroom is that I'm an only child. 00:32:05.480 --> 00:32:11.660 And I would be the only person my mom would call if she had to go, while she was undergoing chemotherapy, 00:32:12.180 --> 00:32:15.220 if she got sick or had to go to the hospital in the middle of the night. 00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:17.960 That is the only thing that I could do. 00:32:18.040 --> 00:32:19.160 It's only my family. 00:32:19.460 --> 00:32:22.140 That's the only thing I have to be there for. 00:32:23.780 --> 00:32:29.260 Well, I mean, I'm an only child too, but I'm just, and Megan, I'll let you get back in 30 seconds. 00:32:29.800 --> 00:32:31.740 I will move my phone out of the bedroom. 00:32:32.440 --> 00:32:33.240 I will do it. 00:32:33.560 --> 00:32:36.300 Because my mom's going to call my wife anyway. 00:32:36.540 --> 00:32:39.020 So, like, it'll ring over there. 00:32:40.080 --> 00:32:42.440 But literally, I'm going to do this. 00:32:42.740 --> 00:32:47.400 Now, you know, Discord at 1 a.m. actually was a good distraction when I can't sleep. 00:32:47.420 --> 00:32:49.640 But I'll go find something else or maybe try to go back to sleep. 00:32:50.360 --> 00:32:51.880 So, John, like, I thank you. 00:32:51.940 --> 00:32:52.560 That's beautiful. 00:32:52.560 --> 00:32:53.720 Megan, please, go on. 00:32:54.040 --> 00:32:59.140 No, I'm just going to add to it because I think boundaries are that thing that is so important. 00:32:59.480 --> 00:33:01.520 And, again, that's going to look different for everybody. 00:33:01.740 --> 00:33:06.100 And what stage of life you're in and what your situations are. 00:33:06.600 --> 00:33:12.520 I know for me, like, I put the do not disturb on my phone. 00:33:13.220 --> 00:33:18.240 And it has my mom, my dad, my husband, my kids can call me. 00:33:18.600 --> 00:33:19.960 So, like, you can set people. 00:33:19.960 --> 00:33:24.820 So, if you have situations like that, you can have that where their calls or their texts will come through. 00:33:25.160 --> 00:33:26.240 But other people's won't. 00:33:26.580 --> 00:33:38.120 Or if there's a specific situation, if you are, you know, dealing with someone who has some pretty mental health struggles and you're their person, you can add that person so that you have that connection. 00:33:38.800 --> 00:33:42.700 I, you know, there's that phrase, like, you can't pour from an empty cup. 00:33:42.820 --> 00:33:45.520 And I really don't like it because you can. 00:33:45.840 --> 00:33:46.880 Like, you can pour. 00:33:46.980 --> 00:33:47.720 It's not going to be good. 00:33:48.380 --> 00:33:53.760 And I think that's where this compassion fatigue comes in is, like, you're trying to pour from that empty cup. 00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:56.260 And it's just giving out emptiness. 00:33:56.260 --> 00:33:59.540 So, it's not really helping the person on the other side. 00:34:00.380 --> 00:34:09.180 But for someone who may see someone else struggling, I know, John, you mentioned, you know, your friends kind of called you out, gave you, you know, a little bit of accountability. 00:34:09.420 --> 00:34:15.120 What are some things that we could do to help other people that maybe we start to see that in? 00:34:15.200 --> 00:34:22.940 We start to see that maybe they're getting agitated easier or maybe they're, you know, just don't feel like they're in the room when they're in the room. 00:34:23.140 --> 00:34:25.700 How do we kind of help them and come alongside them? 00:34:27.280 --> 00:34:28.680 That's a great question. 00:34:29.020 --> 00:34:37.700 If it's somebody that you're not seeing in person, because there have been times where people have done it to me, but I've also been a part of, like, 00:34:37.700 --> 00:34:40.920 if I see somebody post something on Twitter, it's almost always Twitter. 00:34:43.900 --> 00:34:50.320 If I see them post something that's a little out of character or, like, out of pocket, I'll send them that text message of being like, 00:34:50.420 --> 00:34:52.660 hey, man, like, what were you trying to accomplish with this? 00:34:53.580 --> 00:34:55.320 Or, like, what's that all about? 00:34:55.380 --> 00:35:00.560 It made me want to just check in with you and see if you were all right and kind of do that. 00:35:00.560 --> 00:35:14.180 And in person, it's been trying – I realized that with my kids especially, and as somebody, you know, we talked a little bit about, you know, church influence and whatnot. 00:35:14.560 --> 00:35:23.740 But if I want a meeting to not be, you know, people checking their phones and doing whatever, I have to be the one to model that. 00:35:24.380 --> 00:35:28.420 And so I can't check my phone in meetings if I don't want other people to do it. 00:35:28.740 --> 00:35:30.540 And so it's the same thing with my kids. 00:35:30.600 --> 00:35:31.920 I can't complain about them. 00:35:32.320 --> 00:35:42.140 This is my most, like, millennial-specific complaint, millennial Gen X complaint, is all these people complaining about how their kids are always on their devices. 00:35:42.340 --> 00:35:45.000 And I want to be like, well, you want to check your screen time, brother? 00:35:45.660 --> 00:35:48.600 Like, how long – how much are you on your phone? 00:35:49.160 --> 00:35:50.980 Like, they're just watching you. 00:35:51.180 --> 00:35:57.200 Like, it's not – it's like the drugs commercial back in our day, Jeff, where it's like, where did you learn to do this? 00:35:57.200 --> 00:35:59.280 I learned it from watching you, dad. 00:36:00.140 --> 00:36:02.920 Yeah, that's exactly it. 00:36:03.060 --> 00:36:05.360 And so it starts with you. 00:36:06.080 --> 00:36:10.880 And so if I'm going to institute time at home where we're not going to be on our phones, I'm the one that starts it. 00:36:11.020 --> 00:36:14.260 And I'm the one that is held to a higher standard. 00:36:14.560 --> 00:36:14.720 Yeah. 00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:16.640 Same thing with games. 00:36:16.760 --> 00:36:17.700 Same thing with whatever. 00:36:18.220 --> 00:36:28.740 And then, you know, if you're seeing somebody in person that is maybe extremely online or not being present, I think it's okay. 00:36:28.740 --> 00:36:32.400 As long as you have a relationship with that person and you can establish it. 00:36:32.520 --> 00:36:45.480 If I was establishing it, I would say something like, hey, man, I've noticed that during a lot of these meetings and a lot of things that we're doing on the weekend, you know, during the Sunday service, you're really just kind of checking your phone. 00:36:46.620 --> 00:36:48.900 And it really feels disconnected. 00:36:48.900 --> 00:36:50.080 And I miss having you there. 00:36:50.080 --> 00:36:54.760 Like, I would really love to have your voice and your insight and everything involved in that. 00:36:55.060 --> 00:36:57.660 Like, how do you feel about that? 00:36:57.720 --> 00:36:59.800 And they'd usually say, oh, yeah, man, I know. 00:37:00.040 --> 00:37:00.980 I get it. 00:37:01.180 --> 00:37:08.780 And then I would sometimes ask permission of, like, if I see this, is it okay if I talk to you about it again later? 00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:14.800 Because I also don't want to be the guy that's going, stop, get off your phone, right? 00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:18.040 Because that's not who I am. 00:37:19.040 --> 00:37:23.720 And so that, you know, that's the best that I have for that, Megan. 00:37:23.820 --> 00:37:27.100 I don't know if there's a good way besides modeling it yourself. 00:37:27.240 --> 00:37:29.120 That's the primary advice. 00:37:31.260 --> 00:37:32.920 Way to put us in a hard spot. 00:37:33.600 --> 00:37:34.740 Yeah, you got to model it. 00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:41.560 I'm totally – I remember when my son was – my son was three or four, so my daughter probably would have been six. 00:37:41.780 --> 00:37:44.740 We were in Austin, Texas. 00:37:45.940 --> 00:37:50.380 And we were out walking around different – a mall, outdoor mall into different stores. 00:37:51.020 --> 00:37:51.980 And, you know, I've told this story. 00:37:52.020 --> 00:37:53.080 I used to own a Christian bookstore. 00:37:53.640 --> 00:37:56.920 And so – and I love bookstores. 00:37:57.200 --> 00:37:59.940 It's just ironic for a tech guy, but I just – I really love bookstores. 00:38:00.360 --> 00:38:03.300 And so I – we were getting ready to walk into a Barnes & Noble. 00:38:04.440 --> 00:38:07.120 And I said to my kids, I was like, hey, guys, we're getting ready. 00:38:07.200 --> 00:38:09.500 We're going to walk into daddy's favorite store. 00:38:09.640 --> 00:38:10.480 What do you think it is? 00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:14.140 And my son said, mobile phone store. 00:38:19.960 --> 00:38:21.320 Minus one for parent win. 00:38:21.500 --> 00:38:23.240 Like that – okay, parent loss, check. 00:38:23.340 --> 00:38:23.940 Okay, we're good. 00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:26.700 Need to maybe set up something better than the mobile phone. 00:38:27.820 --> 00:38:29.460 But, you know, that's what we spend the most – 00:38:29.460 --> 00:38:32.660 I mean, just myself, that's what I spend the most time on, you know. 00:38:32.740 --> 00:38:34.700 And even if it's playing games or – 00:38:34.700 --> 00:38:36.060 I even took myself off social. 00:38:36.220 --> 00:38:40.640 But I have found that I've found other things to fill in the time that, you know, 00:38:40.680 --> 00:38:41.900 that I'm not doing with social. 00:38:42.020 --> 00:38:44.340 Like they're freaking addictive machines. 00:38:44.340 --> 00:38:48.500 And trying to manage that and put up boundaries is hard. 00:38:48.840 --> 00:38:49.820 I feel that. 00:38:50.460 --> 00:38:55.440 Melanie is saying in chat, I use bedtime, do not disturb at night, and focus mode during the day. 00:38:55.820 --> 00:38:57.520 You know, Apple iOS has got that built in. 00:38:57.740 --> 00:39:02.020 I actually started that, iOS, where, like, it just – it doesn't do anything. 00:39:02.560 --> 00:39:05.800 It just routes it to the right inbox, and then I can, you know, do it. 00:39:06.080 --> 00:39:08.020 And then I only have access to certain apps. 00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:12.620 And if I'm, you know, mean enough to myself in that moment to say, 00:39:12.740 --> 00:39:17.920 this is what I want to limit you to do, like really set your boundaries and hold it, focus works. 00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:20.340 But I'm a coward, too, on some of that stuff. 00:39:20.740 --> 00:39:27.500 I was just saying, I think it all boils down to, like, taking care of yourself in whatever way that is. 00:39:27.640 --> 00:39:32.640 And doing that preventative can help you from falling into compassion fatigue. 00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:36.240 And again, like John, you said, like, that's going to look different for everybody. 00:39:36.480 --> 00:39:39.680 Like, I have a really good friend who's a licensed mental health counselor. 00:39:40.100 --> 00:39:46.960 And for her, like, taking care of, like, herself and having self-care is going out and working on her farm. 00:39:47.240 --> 00:39:49.080 Like, that does not sound fun to me. 00:39:49.600 --> 00:39:51.180 That does – it sounds like work. 00:39:51.320 --> 00:39:52.980 That does not sound like relaxing. 00:39:53.660 --> 00:39:57.140 But that's where she finds her joy, her peace, her rest. 00:39:57.380 --> 00:39:58.660 And I love that for her. 00:39:59.100 --> 00:40:00.920 For me, it's going to look completely different. 00:40:00.920 --> 00:40:08.700 And so I love that, like, just to bring that up to show, like, give yourself permission to do those things as rest, 00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:16.840 as a place to bring you back so that you can care fully for the people who are either across from you or across the screen. 00:40:17.040 --> 00:40:19.080 And I think that that's a big piece. 00:40:19.600 --> 00:40:26.380 Can you think of any other, like, self-care pieces that you maybe do or you've heard of other people? 00:40:26.780 --> 00:40:27.120 Yeah. 00:40:28.700 --> 00:40:36.260 First, let me say that I think just like I remember, like, 10 or so years ago, a big thing was talking about self-leadership. 00:40:36.820 --> 00:40:41.560 Where it was like, how can anybody – how can you lead anybody else if you don't lead yourself well, right? 00:40:42.100 --> 00:40:43.480 And it was a lot of those things. 00:40:43.680 --> 00:40:48.640 And I think we can apply the same kind of thing to self-care. 00:40:49.180 --> 00:40:51.780 How can you care for others if you don't care for yourself? 00:40:52.840 --> 00:40:59.660 And that caring for yourself, it's the, you know, you've got to put the oxygen mask on first before you put it on anybody else. 00:40:59.740 --> 00:41:00.820 It's that kind of thinking. 00:41:01.660 --> 00:41:06.620 And so other self-care practices – reading a book is a self-care practice. 00:41:08.200 --> 00:41:15.440 I had to think about rest in a different way because my dad was a blue-collar dude. 00:41:16.060 --> 00:41:20.720 So his rest was abstaining from physical whatever. 00:41:20.920 --> 00:41:22.260 He didn't want to get up from the couch. 00:41:22.380 --> 00:41:25.080 He didn't want to do – because his job was very physical and hard. 00:41:26.280 --> 00:41:28.900 I'm – my job is not physical. 00:41:29.800 --> 00:41:32.640 Like, I don't – I'm not out there swinging a hammer. 00:41:33.320 --> 00:41:34.840 I'm not out there doing those things. 00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:37.300 And so sometimes my rest is physical. 00:41:37.960 --> 00:41:43.460 Sometimes doing yard work is rest because I'm turning off my brain. 00:41:43.460 --> 00:41:48.540 And so I kind of had to think through what are the components of a restful activity. 00:41:49.360 --> 00:42:00.280 And here's what I kind of – it's a little formulaic, but it's at least something to compare to of I'm not creating a product for anybody else. 00:42:00.280 --> 00:42:01.920 So I'm not writing a blog post. 00:42:02.060 --> 00:42:03.480 I'm not recording a podcast. 00:42:03.480 --> 00:42:04.500 That's not rest. 00:42:05.920 --> 00:42:15.080 I'm not primarily caring for another person or putting their needs first. 00:42:15.580 --> 00:42:19.940 And three, I'm switching my ministry brain off. 00:42:20.540 --> 00:42:23.820 If you're not in ministry, I'm switching my work brain off. 00:42:24.820 --> 00:42:29.280 And that – those were kind of some criteria for what it had to be. 00:42:29.400 --> 00:42:43.160 And that's why the movies were good because I could just for two hours just get a giant thing of popcorn and a giant drink and, you know, eat too much popcorn, whatever, but – and sit there and turn my brain off. 00:42:43.160 --> 00:42:50.080 Or it's why sometimes yard work was really helpful or some kind of manual labor that needed to be done or a home project. 00:42:50.420 --> 00:42:53.040 That actually felt like rest. 00:42:53.300 --> 00:42:57.620 And one of the hardest parts of ministry is that it never – it's never done. 00:42:58.940 --> 00:43:06.820 A lot of people have jobs that are done either by times of year if you're a teacher or by project where it's just like, hey, we finished the project. 00:43:08.220 --> 00:43:09.860 Like, it's done. 00:43:10.120 --> 00:43:10.380 Yay. 00:43:10.680 --> 00:43:17.520 Or you have people that are servers of like, I clock out at eight and that's done and I don't think about it. 00:43:17.600 --> 00:43:22.320 But ministry is never ending because people are never made right. 00:43:22.900 --> 00:43:24.240 You're never made right. 00:43:24.500 --> 00:43:35.140 And so having things that have very clear problems that can be solved and taken care of and finished and done. 00:43:35.500 --> 00:43:40.980 And I've got myself in trouble a few times trying to fix things that I shouldn't have fixed and caused more problems. 00:43:41.200 --> 00:43:43.520 And so I couldn't check the box and it was more frustrating. 00:43:43.520 --> 00:43:55.620 But kind of figuring out how to define rest for yourself is a conversation to have because a lot of people don't know how to rest. 00:43:56.000 --> 00:43:57.980 We don't know what rest looks like. 00:43:58.120 --> 00:44:08.260 And especially – I'm going to say this especially for like moms because a part of your job as a mom is especially if you work or even if you don't work. 00:44:08.520 --> 00:44:16.960 You do work and then you come home and you are a mom and have kind of a job at home and dads have a job at home too. 00:44:17.320 --> 00:44:24.060 But I found that moms have a harder time disconnecting to do things personally that fill their tank. 00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:26.940 And they might not know what those things are. 00:44:28.420 --> 00:44:31.040 You know, for my wife, it's reading a book. 00:44:31.140 --> 00:44:33.700 When she's reading a book, I know that she's filling her tank. 00:44:33.860 --> 00:44:41.560 Now, if she's staying up till 3 a.m. to read, that's probably not a good idea because you still need some sleep. 00:44:41.780 --> 00:44:43.540 But it's the point. 00:44:43.900 --> 00:44:45.200 The point is – 00:44:45.200 --> 00:44:46.680 It's a really good book though, John. 00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:47.140 Come on. 00:44:47.520 --> 00:44:48.880 I had to finish it. 00:44:48.880 --> 00:44:50.700 And then I wake up. 00:44:50.940 --> 00:44:55.140 But then I have less compassion the following day when she's tired. 00:44:56.580 --> 00:45:00.680 But, you know, I hope that answers the question, Megan. 00:45:01.220 --> 00:45:05.020 No, I think that's right on – like nail on the head because it's so true. 00:45:05.100 --> 00:45:06.940 And what you said about moms, I mean, I live that. 00:45:07.420 --> 00:45:14.600 It feels like you're all the time and luckily I have a wonderful husband who helps out and helps me. 00:45:14.660 --> 00:45:16.060 He's like, you don't have to do it all. 00:45:16.200 --> 00:45:17.540 And I'm like, but I feel like I do. 00:45:18.240 --> 00:45:22.880 And so for me, like working out, it's not like the most fun thing to do. 00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:30.140 But it burns that stress hormone, the cortisol in my body, which helps my stress to come down, which helps everything else. 00:45:30.140 --> 00:45:40.100 So even though I may not want to, like, even just go for a walk, like you said earlier, or do something and staying hydrated, if I don't want to do it and I do it, I feel a lot better afterwards. 00:45:42.360 --> 00:45:43.180 That's so good. 00:45:43.460 --> 00:45:48.500 John, you said something about separating work brain and home brain. 00:45:52.040 --> 00:45:53.660 How do you do that in ministry? 00:45:54.580 --> 00:46:00.060 Now, I understand don't answer, like, you know, pastoral calls at 1 a.m. 00:46:01.080 --> 00:46:04.320 But, you know, I'm talking Holy Spirit. 00:46:04.640 --> 00:46:06.400 I'm talking quiet time. 00:46:06.560 --> 00:46:09.540 I'm talking representing Christ to your kids. 00:46:10.440 --> 00:46:14.980 Like, how do you manage – I've never said this before. 00:46:15.140 --> 00:46:17.460 It's probably not the right phrase, so feel free to pick it apart. 00:46:18.040 --> 00:46:28.440 Like, putting a boundary on God, or, like, how do you manage him crossing over these boundaries and not working on the same clock that you are? 00:46:29.640 --> 00:46:31.080 Yeah, great question. 00:46:31.080 --> 00:46:44.660 The thing that immediately comes to mind is the idea of why the Trinity is important, in that it's God in three persons, and I am John in multiple persons. 00:46:45.500 --> 00:46:48.460 And when I'm at church, I'm Pastor John. 00:46:48.860 --> 00:46:54.920 And whether I want to be or not, that is the role that I occupy here, and I'm treated as such. 00:46:55.560 --> 00:47:01.040 And, you know, in a lot of ways, being a pastor at a, you know, at a church is a really sweet gig. 00:47:01.040 --> 00:47:07.320 Like, you get a lot of the, like, positive reinforcement of people thanking you and doing things like that. 00:47:07.500 --> 00:47:09.560 That is not how my family treats me. 00:47:10.200 --> 00:47:11.280 I am dad. 00:47:11.900 --> 00:47:12.940 I am husband. 00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:18.340 And the way you treat dad and husband is different than the way you treat pastor. 00:47:19.240 --> 00:47:26.920 And, you know, I don't know if you're a big professional wrestling guy, Jeff or Megan, but some pastors live the gimmick. 00:47:27.820 --> 00:47:29.940 They think they're Hulk Hogan at home. 00:47:30.060 --> 00:47:31.780 They think they're Hulk Hogan in the pulpit. 00:47:31.920 --> 00:47:33.880 They think they're Hulk Hogan at the grocery store. 00:47:34.280 --> 00:47:40.060 And when you go home, you cannot be the persona you are at church. 00:47:40.820 --> 00:47:46.360 Because I don't care if you have a five-person church or a 500,000-person church. 00:47:46.360 --> 00:47:51.880 When you're on stage or in a role of authority, you have a persona. 00:47:53.080 --> 00:47:56.260 It's why people want you to visit the hospital and not somebody else. 00:47:56.400 --> 00:47:58.420 There's a persona that you occupy. 00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:01.200 And I don't think that's even bad. 00:48:01.700 --> 00:48:04.320 I think it's just a natural kind of thing. 00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:08.760 And so, Jeff, I have to not bring Pastor John home. 00:48:09.260 --> 00:48:13.320 And I have to like and thrive. 00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:20.360 The other thing that I see in a lot of pastors is that they don't like being dad or husband. 00:48:21.100 --> 00:48:28.560 Because you don't get the same level of respect or the same level of adulation. 00:48:30.060 --> 00:48:31.760 As, oh, great sermon, Pastor. 00:48:31.900 --> 00:48:33.340 Oh, man, Pastor, you're so smart. 00:48:33.400 --> 00:48:34.580 Thank you so much, Pastor. 00:48:34.580 --> 00:48:41.980 At home, like, you got to change diapers and take out the trash and do the stuff that nobody likes. 00:48:42.120 --> 00:48:51.320 And so, you have to allow yourself to transition into these other roles that you have, even though you're the same person. 00:48:52.760 --> 00:48:55.160 And I'm still the same John. 00:48:55.360 --> 00:48:57.180 I'm just dad or husband. 00:48:58.800 --> 00:49:04.720 Because work brain, turning off that work brain means, okay, I'm leaving Pastor John at the door. 00:49:04.800 --> 00:49:12.400 So, when my kid asked me about a faith issue, I'm not approaching it as a pastor, but approaching it as a father. 00:49:13.400 --> 00:49:17.160 And as a pastor, I can give someone advice and never see them again. 00:49:18.160 --> 00:49:22.160 And I can go, well, the correct answer, you know, why does God allow suffering? 00:49:22.260 --> 00:49:23.420 Well, here's the right answer. 00:49:23.800 --> 00:49:35.040 Okay, right, as a father, you answer it differently because your first thing is probably compassion going, like, are you or one of your friends suffering and hurting? 00:49:35.760 --> 00:49:37.720 Like, what, like, what's, talk to me. 00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:38.580 What's going on? 00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:39.080 Yeah. 00:49:39.240 --> 00:49:43.320 Tell me about why you're having this question and just let them explore it. 00:49:43.580 --> 00:49:54.720 But I've had to learn that telling my kids the right answer or bringing them to church or making them do this is not how they find a relationship with Jesus. 00:49:56.040 --> 00:49:57.360 It just isn't. 00:49:57.400 --> 00:49:58.980 They have to find it on their own. 00:49:59.220 --> 00:50:02.240 And it's hard and difficult and weird. 00:50:02.360 --> 00:50:08.500 And they don't view me with the same authority that thousands of people on Sunday do. 00:50:09.400 --> 00:50:20.100 They, they, because they, I'm dad, I burp and I forgot to take out the, you know, like, I forgot to call to make the doctor's appointment and I forgot to pick them up from school. 00:50:20.100 --> 00:50:24.600 And, oh, crud, I know that I told you that I was going to get you a lollipop, but I didn't. 00:50:24.680 --> 00:50:26.460 I forgot to get ice cream in the grocery order. 00:50:26.560 --> 00:50:29.700 Like, I was driving and I was speeding. 00:50:29.940 --> 00:50:39.600 That's been a big thing because now the Apple thing put, you know, the Google Maps will put your speed next to the, and my kids would be like, dad, are you supposed to be going 70? 00:50:39.700 --> 00:50:40.300 It's a 55. 00:50:41.480 --> 00:50:42.780 And like. 00:50:43.220 --> 00:50:44.080 Stupid accountability. 00:50:44.960 --> 00:50:45.640 Yeah, I know. 00:50:45.940 --> 00:50:47.780 It's like, well, look, let me tell them. 00:50:47.800 --> 00:50:48.900 Then you have to explain anyway. 00:50:49.100 --> 00:50:57.660 All that to say, I think stepping out of the Pastor John persona has helped me switch off work brain. 00:50:57.660 --> 00:51:19.280 And it has also let me be vulnerable at home to not have to have the answers, to allow myself to be served by my wife and allow myself to be served by my kids, allow myself to be fully open and vulnerable instead of a persona. 00:51:19.280 --> 00:51:28.640 And as hard as that can be, because the adulation and the respect and the kind of pedestal you're put on as a pastor is addicting. 00:51:28.960 --> 00:51:30.720 It's a hell of a drug, man. 00:51:30.980 --> 00:51:32.380 It feels so good. 00:51:32.980 --> 00:51:36.980 Like, I've never done cocaine, but I understand why people do. 00:51:37.920 --> 00:51:47.840 If it's anything, like having somebody recognize you at the grocery store and tell their friend how great you are, that's a hell of a drug. 00:51:47.960 --> 00:51:50.880 But, man, you cannot expect that from your family. 00:51:51.560 --> 00:51:54.760 And you have to leave that at the door. 00:51:54.940 --> 00:52:01.740 And you have to just be who you're most vulnerable with your inner circle. 00:52:01.940 --> 00:52:05.380 And if you're not married, you're a single person, which shout out to single people. 00:52:05.480 --> 00:52:06.380 Single people are awesome. 00:52:06.380 --> 00:52:20.300 You have to have an inner circle that you can just be completely vulnerable and honest with, that will not believe your height, that will not think you're super important. 00:52:21.300 --> 00:52:31.080 Or in the opposite, like I know there's probably a digital pastor out there or a stream, a gamer that's trying to win people to Jesus in their own ministry. 00:52:31.320 --> 00:52:32.840 And they're experiencing the opposite. 00:52:33.040 --> 00:52:35.400 They're getting no positive feedback. 00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:39.560 They're getting no, like, pats on the back. 00:52:39.860 --> 00:52:48.720 The people in your inner circle are the ones that will be there to hype you up, even when you have two or zero people on your, you know, your Fall Guys live stream. 00:52:49.520 --> 00:53:00.100 Like, these are going to be the people that hype you up and encourage you when you come home and be like, oh, God, why did I leave my job to try to convince people to follow Jesus online? 00:53:00.840 --> 00:53:07.600 Why did, why, this is such a bad, like, your inner circle are the people that are going to go, because God called you to do that. 00:53:07.980 --> 00:53:14.160 And so you have to have this inner circle that will not believe the hype or completely leave the hype, right? 00:53:14.220 --> 00:53:17.800 Like, they have to be able to be real with you no matter what's going on. 00:53:18.340 --> 00:53:20.780 And the wisdom to know which approach to take. 00:53:21.720 --> 00:53:27.980 You know, you're getting too big in the head, so you need some humility or you're getting beat up. 00:53:28.080 --> 00:53:30.820 You need to get, you know, inflated a little bit. 00:53:30.920 --> 00:53:32.940 That's a wise word right there. 00:53:33.620 --> 00:53:37.900 Really, what all this boils down to is having people around you. 00:53:39.100 --> 00:53:46.260 That's how we can combat compassion fatigue, is to have those people around you that can help you when you're struggling. 00:53:46.680 --> 00:53:53.060 And then also, like, putting those preventative boundaries, measures in place so that you don't get to that point. 00:53:53.720 --> 00:53:55.380 We'll have stresses in our life. 00:53:55.600 --> 00:53:57.760 You know, he said, in this world, there will be trouble. 00:53:58.060 --> 00:53:59.140 So we're going to have trouble. 00:53:59.240 --> 00:54:01.640 We're going to have things that come in our life. 00:54:01.640 --> 00:54:11.160 But if we have ourselves surrounded by people and we can just put some things in place to take care of ourselves, we'll be able to care for so many more people. 00:54:12.060 --> 00:54:19.080 And then, in turn, just remembering that, you know, if you are doing any type of ministry, like, Jesus is the one who changes them. 00:54:19.440 --> 00:54:22.900 It's not like your job is just to, like, love on them and care for them. 00:54:23.040 --> 00:54:26.040 But he's going to do the work and the Holy Spirit will work through them. 00:54:26.380 --> 00:54:32.940 So we can kind of take that, like, hero mentality and put that to the side because it's not us doing it. 00:54:35.260 --> 00:54:36.120 That's a good word. 00:54:36.480 --> 00:54:38.000 That's a good word right there, Megan. 00:54:38.100 --> 00:54:38.620 So cool. 00:54:39.240 --> 00:54:39.500 All right. 00:54:39.520 --> 00:54:42.860 Well, hey, we're getting close to the hour, so we've got to land a plane. 00:54:43.820 --> 00:54:45.680 John, as we're wrapping up here, any closing thoughts? 00:54:47.160 --> 00:54:51.300 Man, so much respect for people that are out there doing digital ministry. 00:54:52.640 --> 00:55:08.260 I view my time in digital ministry kind of like people view their time at a fully mobile church plant of, man, those were the good old days of eating breakfast tacos, drinking coffee at 5 a.m. and unloading the thing. 00:55:08.520 --> 00:55:10.000 But I don't want to do it anymore. 00:55:11.440 --> 00:55:15.120 And I was just as thankful when we had a building, right? 00:55:15.120 --> 00:55:26.860 And so not obviously to make light of digital ministry, but it's one of those things that it is an incredible calling, just like church planting is. 00:55:26.860 --> 00:55:29.040 It's an incredible thing that God is doing. 00:55:29.200 --> 00:55:31.060 And I just I want to encourage you. 00:55:31.740 --> 00:55:34.180 You are amazing to do that. 00:55:34.180 --> 00:55:46.920 And you are reaching people that people in churches or people in physical churches will never reach. 00:55:47.240 --> 00:55:48.560 Never, ever, ever, ever. 00:55:49.120 --> 00:55:54.160 And so I'm thankful and I care about you so much that I really want you to take care of yourselves, too. 00:55:55.440 --> 00:56:05.280 When you see the burnout rate for YouTube influencers and TikTok influencers and other digital media professions, you know that it's not easy. 00:56:06.540 --> 00:56:09.660 And it can be toxic really fast. 00:56:10.660 --> 00:56:12.420 And so y'all matter a lot. 00:56:12.940 --> 00:56:16.020 Take care of yourselves, please, because you're doing an important job. 00:56:16.640 --> 00:56:16.760 Yeah. 00:56:17.660 --> 00:56:18.820 That's a wise word, John. 00:56:18.820 --> 00:56:29.780 Like we at the Church Digital, we're we're really excited about what we're seeing God doing in digital metaverse spaces, influencers and Twitch and gaming and TikTok. 00:56:30.160 --> 00:56:36.920 And like, honestly, I just hear so many stories of what God is doing in different spaces. 00:56:37.540 --> 00:56:40.360 And and so we want to we want to come alongside. 00:56:40.360 --> 00:56:52.100 We're going to be talking more about this in the weeks to come, but we're going to be coming alongside with with more resources and more opportunities to equip people like you that are in the field doing digital ministry. 00:56:52.100 --> 00:57:05.020 You know, whether it's at physical churches or the planters or the missionaries that are out there, the people that call themselves church, the people that don't want to call themselves church because they're reaching people that don't would be turned off by church. 00:57:05.960 --> 00:57:15.960 The people that we're reaching in these digital metaverse environments are people that are not coming to the church buildings that I can I can say definitively. 00:57:16.160 --> 00:57:18.040 We're not in competition with the building. 00:57:18.260 --> 00:57:21.840 And so, you know, we want to be that that accountability. 00:57:21.840 --> 00:57:23.020 We want to be that prayer. 00:57:23.100 --> 00:57:27.860 We want to be that resource, that that voice for you all here at the Church Digital. 00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:32.220 And so we'll have a lot more of that coming soon. 00:57:33.220 --> 00:57:35.560 Well, guys, it's been a great experiment here on Twitch. 00:57:35.560 --> 00:57:39.220 We're wrapping up episode 307. 00:57:39.380 --> 00:57:44.100 Megan and John Pyle here talking about compassion fatigue. 00:57:44.200 --> 00:57:44.860 Hope it was great. 00:57:45.020 --> 00:57:47.560 We've got another episode coming. 00:57:48.340 --> 00:57:48.780 Is it Chino? 00:57:49.360 --> 00:57:51.560 Chino Mage is coming up here in 308. 00:57:52.380 --> 00:57:57.680 My man jumped on Twitch just to say in the Twitch chat room that he does not love Jeff Reed. 00:57:57.780 --> 00:58:00.940 He loves Megan Carter and John Pyle more than Jeff Reed. 00:58:01.780 --> 00:58:07.100 And so, but we're going to have we're going to have Chino on next week talking about Megan. 00:58:07.160 --> 00:58:08.560 What was the topic that we had? 00:58:08.640 --> 00:58:09.540 I just blanked on it. 00:58:09.860 --> 00:58:10.820 I blanked on it, too. 00:58:10.880 --> 00:58:11.620 I blanked on it, too. 00:58:11.920 --> 00:58:12.760 Nobody knows. 00:58:13.140 --> 00:58:13.460 He knows. 00:58:13.680 --> 00:58:14.180 Inner critic. 00:58:14.740 --> 00:58:15.440 Inner critic. 00:58:15.440 --> 00:58:19.440 I was about to say whatever it was, it was really appropriate for Andy Mage. 00:58:19.440 --> 00:58:23.920 And so inner critic is going to be what we're getting to next week. 00:58:23.980 --> 00:58:27.700 And to be fair, Megan and John Pyle are amazing. 00:58:27.800 --> 00:58:33.960 And if you've not listened to From Text to Testimony, which was the three of them on a podcast together, Andy and those two, they're really good. 00:58:34.100 --> 00:58:38.480 So, yeah, in fairness, the three of them equal or are far better than me. 00:58:39.380 --> 00:58:40.080 But we're going to lap. 00:58:40.180 --> 00:58:47.860 We're going to wrap up for Megan, for John, for Andy Mage and for everybody else that's hanging out with here within Twitch with us. 00:58:47.920 --> 00:58:49.620 This is Jeff landing the plane. 00:58:49.720 --> 00:58:50.300 You have a good one. 00:58:50.480 --> 00:58:53.140 And we'll see you next time here on the TCD podcast. 00:58:53.520 --> 00:58:53.960 Talk to you later. 00:58:53.960 --> 00:59:07.740 We'll see you later.