WEBVTT

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 I think it's having a little bit of a baseline brain science understanding of the human

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 mind, how it works with emotions, can really equip us to learn not to avoid them. When in

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 fact, if we do avoid them, that'll lead us to deep trouble down the road. God gave them to us,

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 and if we didn't have them, we wouldn't survive.

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 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological

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 innovations within the Church. But more than Tech for Tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

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 Is disciple-making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field?

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 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse

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 and artificial intelligence fit into all of this? Whether you're a big or small church,

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 the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church,

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 digitally and physically. And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

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 Everybody, we are live on Twitch. We're live streaming this The Church Digital Podcast. I'm

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 going to go out on a limb and assume this is episode 309. If Whitebeard is in the room,

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 somebody can fact check me. I appreciate that. Pretty sure this is 309 here at The Church

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 Digital Podcast. We're in a season here talking about digital and mental health. It's been a great

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 season so far, really digging some interesting, introspective, self-reflective topics, getting

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 into some material. Focusing last week, we had, actually, I was listening to it this morning. I was

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 stuck in traffic for like two hours. I was listening to Megan Carter and Andy Mage and I last week

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 talking about inner critic. And I said on the podcast recording, I hate to listen to the sound of my own

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 voice. And sure enough, after listening to an hour of myself talking about inner critic, I do, in fact,

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 hate listening to the sound of my own voice. So I just wanted to share that. And I almost did it

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 there. I also noticed I say um and ah way too much when I'm having these podcast conversations. And so

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 my inner critic is calling shame on myself for that. And so now I'm wanting to better focus on not being

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 that guy and trying to be better focused on um, there it is, there it is, there it is, there it is. Dang

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 it. All right. I got to stop this. But hey, I'm looking forward to this conversation today. We're

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 going to get to the guest here in a little bit. But Megan, thanks for coming back, co-hosting here

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 this season. Appreciate you again on that. Yeah, no, I love it. I'm so excited. And today is not an easy

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 topic, but I think it's a really important one. Yeah. I almost want to give you credit up top here

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 and give you an opportunity to dig into this because, you know, we've said this in the podcast,

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 Megan is really the brainchild on the season. I just said to Megan, hey, Megan, I want to want

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 to talk about mental health and digital ministry. She came from First Capital Christian Church

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 anywhere. She's got digital ministry background. She understands this stuff. You know, Tyler's got a

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 great ecosystem up there with this church. And but Megan also is AACC and is, you know, working

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 through the mental health aspects and is really passionate about some of this stuff. And so

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 it is well-spoken. She's done from text to testimony and has her own podcast that deals

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 into this. And it's like, you know, I really I want to involve Megan in this project as we're

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 trying to figure out how to, you know, better equip our digital missionaries to speak into

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 the space. But I asked Megan, I was like, hey, come up with some topics. And this topic,

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 this round, I'll be honest, I was like, huh, I never thought that, like, I didn't see this

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 one coming in a critic. I understood a lot of the other ones like, yeah, I understand how

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 that fits. But these two, like this was off topic for me. This was let me dig deep. And

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 so, Megan, I'd love for you to maybe take a minute, set up the topic and why this is so

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 important for us to deal with.

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 Yeah. And, you know, shame versus guilt is such, I don't know, we like to use those words

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 interchangeably. And that's where we get into an issue is that they have different implications.

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 There's different kind of definitions, even though we get the same emotional feeling from

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 them. So that's why I think it's so important to talk about because, you know, I heard it said

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 once before, and it's stuck with me ever since is just, you know, guilt is something that

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 we've done. So something we've, you know, done and that we maybe should have a little guilt

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 for. But shame is we perceive of who we are. And so it's really an identity piece. And I

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 think that, you know, you can look at culturally, you can look at through the church culture, just

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 in our world around us, that those things have been really just, you know, taken wrong, where

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 we've put shame, where guilt should be, or guilt where we've, you know, threw shame in there. And so

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 I think dividing those and really figuring out the difference between is so important. And especially

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 when you're talking to people digitally and online, there's a lot of people who are dealing with shame,

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 but they feel like it's guilt. And so being able to decide for that for them and talk through that

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 is so important. And that can be a game changer for them when you can really change those things and

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 how they are perceived.

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 Yeah, I love that. Looking forward to getting into the topic at a deeper level. And as I looked at

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 this, and it's interesting, I'm not even sure why this name resonated so much with me as I was looking

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 at this shame versus guilt one. But the guy that really came to mind for me is the guest that we've

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 got here on the show today. Chris Caputo. Now, if you've been with the Church Digital for a while,

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 or even back in the DCN Digital Church Network days, you may remember Chris. Chris was,

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 Chris, did you actually have a title? Like, was it spiritual? I was trying to think.

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 I mean, you were like the guru of Digital Church Network. At one point, I was referring you to be like

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 my spiritual director, the spiritual director of DCN. Like, what were you? Do you remember? Was there

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 actually a label that we put on you? Did we figure that out?

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 No, I think I was more of your spiritual director. And I mean, we put it out there. We put it out

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 there. But yeah, so. Yeah. Yeah. Chris was almost like the, I mean, I don't remember the guy's name

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 from Lord of the Rings, but there was like the king. And then there was, this is going to be a horrible

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 analogy, Chris. I'm sorry if I'm about to say. There was like the king, the human king, the man king

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 that was in charge of like one of the kingdoms. And then there was like the evil wizard who was like

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 whispering over the king's shoulder saying, do this or don't do this, who was really manipulating the

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 king in the evil way. And then eventually like the white knight Gandalf cast broke the spell.

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 Like, okay, take all the evil manipulative ass out of what I just said. But that was really Chris.

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 Like we just had this really great, you know, relationship where a lot of the strengths that

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 that I had and were great, but a lot of the weaknesses, a lot of the relationships, a lot of

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 the way that he viewed things, Chris viewed things was kind of very complimentary to that. And,

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 you know, talking about blind spots, like Chris was really kind of a go-to for me in that season,

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 as we were trying to get what was digital church network. Now the church digital really started in

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 that season. And so as we're talking about here, working through this topic of shame versus guilt,

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 for some reason, it was like, Chris, will you come do this podcast with us to really,

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 really dig into that? I don't know, Chris, like, is there anything, does that kind of resonate with

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 you at a level shame versus guilt? Like what are your topics? Just even walking in on that. What

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 are your thoughts? Yeah, that's a very big for the nonprofit work that we do in our ministry,

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 learning how to roll with shame. Um, there's a lot of misconception and confusion out there.

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 How, how it's actually, we actually say this is the make or break with establishing an emotionally

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 healthy Christian communities, how that community actually handles when shame comes up into a

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 situation or how do we, how do we work through that particular? Cause a lot of the teaching is that

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 we just put it on the cross. It's, it's partially true, partially not true. The way we kind of handle

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 that, uh, using the latest in, uh, what I'll say the best practices of neuro brain science and theology

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 and, and how to really navigate negative emotions, which really aren't a bad thing.

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 They actually are very helpful. We'll unpack all that. So, you know, instead of avoiding them or

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 doing other unhealthy things, how do we, how do we steward it? Well, that actually brings deeper

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 transformation individually and corporately when we learn to deal with shame. So that's a little

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 teaser as we get going here from our perspective.

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 Very cool. Uh, Megan kick, kick it off. What do you, what do you think in here? What do we need to dig

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 into with the shame versus guilt?

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 Well, I want to just dig into what you just said, Chris, cause I love what you just said. I talked to

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 people so many times about how all our emotions are, are not just negative where we want to view it that

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 way. So I would like to dig into that just a little bit where, you know, we have this idea in our

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 heads that have been put there by some, somehow, um, that all emotions are negative. I mean, you see

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 that, like if you're sitting in like a meeting and someone is crying because whether they're like, for

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 me, I cry when I'm frustrated, like if they're frustrated or if they're sad or any kind of emotion, but

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 it's viewed as like negative. Cause the first thing that comes out of their mouth is like, Oh, I'm so

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 sorry. I'm crying. And I'm like, Oh, please don't apologize. So I would love to just kind of dive

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 into that. Like what should we view like emotions as?

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 Yeah. I, I refer to them as warning lights, dashboard indicators when they're big emotions

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 that can be perceived as negative. So as a baby, if you have a mother watching this on this podcast,

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 when you see your baby, is it like, is, is my child sad? Are they hungry? Are they angry at

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 something? Are they scared? And the mother learns to hear because the child can't use words. The only

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 thing child has as emotions as warning to be like, Hey, I need something or something's being trespassed

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 against me. Ah, it becomes a violation of some sort that the emotions in our soul that God designed

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 becomes a warning light. It's like, Hey, anger, this needs to stop. That's all it means. So I think it's

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 having a little bit of a baseline brain science, understanding of the human mind, how it works with

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 emotions can really equip us to learn not to avoid them. When the fact, if we do avoid them, we could lead

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 that that'll lead us to deep trouble down the road. God gave them to us. And if we didn't have them, we

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 wouldn't survive. So we could just start there as far as emotions go, you know? Right. But if you guys seen that movie

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 inside out, that is a wonderful case study where joy is actually the center of all of it, we're supposed to

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 be living from joy, which is a whole other topic, but the negative emotions wrap around joy, we're supposed

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 to return back to joy from all the negative emotions, perceived negative emotions. That's really how the

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 brain is designed to function in a holistic, whole, healthy way.

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 Yeah. I love that. I love the movie. It's great. And the second one's, I think even better. So if you

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 haven't watched those as a little plug, you should watch them because it helps you understand those

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 emotions. But I think it ties in with what we're just talking about, all our emotions. We have these

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 emotions that come out that feel negative. And that's whenever it comes down to that shame and guilt.

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 And how do we, you know, decipher between the two? So I guess my question would be like, what is the first thing

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 you think of whenever we, we say those like shame versus guilt? Like when you were first, you know, introduced

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 about doing this podcast, what was like your initial reactions? What did you think about that?

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 Yeah, I thought it was a great question, Megan, because there's a lot of confusion. And I think you actually

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 nailed it on the head of the opening. That guilt has to do with guilty. You know, like in a court of law, you're

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 innocent or guilty. Hey, you know what, if I if I'm going 75, and it says 55 on the sign, officer, I'm so sorry,

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 I didn't realize. Well, sir, here's your ticket. You broke the law. You're guilty. However, I'm not condemned to a

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 prison camp for the rest of my life of condemnation, just because I'm guilty of something. That's where

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 it kind of can spin out with guilt. The end of the line is the sentencing of the crime that's been

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 committed is where we can get into trouble. Now, shame is a different ball of wax, because shame

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 actually God, and there's some maybe get to it later on in the broadcast, there's scriptural basis that

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 actually Paul utilizes this element of shame as well in the ministry. When he writes to the churches,

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 it's actually in there. And it's a little bit tricky. If you don't have a good attachment with

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 someone that you're close to. Shame is nothing more than in my world, we want to use language,

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 it means you're not bringing me joy right now, you've done something, you maybe are guilty of an

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 infraction. But the response from the person is, hey, that that's not okay. What you just what just

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 happened right now that hurts me offends me. It makes me angry, something you did, it just it violates,

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 it trespassed on me, and I'm going to let you know it. And the response that I feel is I want to put

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 some branches and some fig leaves over my face, I want to hide. And I want to run away. And I want

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 to be like, ah, that's not good. For us, Megan, it becomes toxic when I'm alone in it. And over time,

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 when I run shame tape all the way through, it means I am that behavior. That's not true.

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 I am this. But what I did was not okay. And we need to separate the two, where it becomes an

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 identity thing where toxic shame means I am the result of that action that I took. And I've been

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 told as much as such by people. Like, it's like when I grew up when I did something, Chris, go to your

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 room, go think about it's the worst thing that we can ever do as parents is put our children in a dark

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 room so they can scream and cry and figure out by their own brains, how they kind of did what they

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 did and come talk to me about it. When we need to be with them in that, we need to, we need to say,

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 hey, you weren't acting like yourself in that moment. I'm not happy with what happened. I'm

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 disappointed. And I want you to feel this with me, but you are not that you are my son. You are my

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 daughter. I love you, but this is not okay. These actions right here are not okay. And you need to

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 feel that sting of that shame. That's healthy. That actually brings character correction.

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 But anyway, that's a whole big, I just dropped an atomic bomb on you. We can go home now for the

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 rest of the podcast. So anyway, just let that sit out there.

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 Yeah. Let, let me just to follow up. I mean, you said the word toxic shame and that, that was

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 interesting to me. Like that, that just like opened up a whole other section of my brain.

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 Um, what, what is the point that shame becomes toxic? Like what, what is, what is, you know, I guess

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 healthy shame versus unhealthy shame versus, you know, I mean, toxic opens up a whole other

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 level to me. So maybe, maybe walk through some of that for us to process.

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 Yeah. So if I do something, let's say I get angry and I have an outburst and I, you know, hurt somebody

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 and I didn't do something loving in that moment. But if I'm left alone to process that, the conclusion

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 that my brain will conclude is that I'm not lovable because I do those things. The truth is, no, I had a

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 bad moment right there that I wasn't acting like myself and I reacted and that's not okay. And that

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 needs to be fixed. I got to work on that. So it becomes toxic a, when we're alone in it. Okay. B,

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 when we start to equate our identity to those actions and they become married, that's when it

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 becomes toxic. That's what Jesus nailed on the cross was the toxic shame. We are not sinners. We are saved

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 by grace. We are a child of the King who happens to struggle and walk out some things sinfully.

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 We still have, we still live here. We malfunction from time to time. And that doesn't make us bad

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 people. It just means we have some things that don't bring joy that actually bring shame to our own,

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 to us and to other people by the way we behaved. So does that, is that helpful or do I need to kind

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 of come at it from another direction? I think so. Like the, it's, it's like the,

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 it's unresolved. It's, it's where it toxicity is where it lingers on. It becomes part of, part of the

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 identity of this, I guess is, is kind of what I'm hearing when you define who you are by the shame

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 that you're feeling. Um, I, you know, I guess that's, that's where the, the toxicity, um, lingers.

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 Part of me in, and this may be like, I'm trying to marry two ideas together. That shouldn't,

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 I'm even wondering back to the inner critic where, that we talked about last week where we're

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 constantly, you know, judging ourselves based on our past mistakes. If that's not even like a

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 superficial level of shame, uh, which grows into this, you know, potential toxicity level. Like I,

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 I don't, I didn't think those two levels were, were related, but now that we're talking about it,

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 it feels like it's almost the same thing. Am I, am I seeing that right?

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 Yeah. So even when you started off, let's go back to your earlier comment about saying

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 ums and ahs. And yeah, I mean, like, it's like having someone be with you, be like, you know what,

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 Jeff, I'm so glad to be with you. I know you got those little fall paws. I know you got those little,

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 you know, and you want to improve your craft and you beat yourself up, but you know what, bro,

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 I love you. Like whether you do that or not, I'm with you in it. What do you need for me to walk with

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 you to trigger you not to do that anymore? How can I help you and be with you when you feel like the

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 inner critic, when you feel like you've done this and that, that is a healthy model of us being with

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 you. Even though you feel the shame and conviction of that, that needs to change. If you have someone

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 with you in it, that's glad to be with you with a joyful face, with a joyful voice and can just

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 presence with you in that. And then it's together with you to walk through the correction that instead

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 of you trying to gut it out. Oh, I did it again and rinse and repeat and I'm guilting myself and

00:18:30.420 --> 00:18:38.180
 bah, bah, bah, and condemnation. Bro, it's okay. But then it gets harder when, if you do that to me

00:18:38.180 --> 00:18:43.980
 personally and we have a rupture of some sort, how do I practice healthy shaming you to say,

00:18:44.020 --> 00:18:49.480
 hey, look, that wasn't okay what you did, bro. I love you, but I'm still attached to you. I'm in

00:18:49.480 --> 00:18:55.340
 this with you. I'm going to walk with you. How can I help? That's got to stop. That stuff's got to

00:18:55.340 --> 00:19:04.260
 stop because it violates. It's not okay. Okay. I'll pause and let that sit there. We're counseling

00:19:04.260 --> 00:19:10.200
 in real time, right, buddy? I love it. It's great. In a public environment, it's just open. Let's just

00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:15.760
 let it roll. No, I love it. This is so good. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think another piece that plays into

00:19:15.760 --> 00:19:23.540
 shame going so toxic is environmental factors around you, culture you grew up in. I, this might

00:19:23.540 --> 00:19:29.000
 sound silly, but I love Disney. So this is where I go. Um, but you know, like in Mulan where they're

00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:34.740
 like, shame on you and shame on your cow, like, because she's not following what she's supposed

00:19:34.740 --> 00:19:40.240
 to be doing, shame on everything around her. And I think that even though that may sound silly,

00:19:40.860 --> 00:19:45.980
 that sometimes that's how it feels. Like if you've grown up in that kind of culture and,

00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:52.280
 you know, we're talking about people in the digital space, it's not just this small group. Like we're

00:19:52.280 --> 00:19:58.120
 hitting so many different cultures that people are reaching out to and trying to minister to. And so

00:19:58.120 --> 00:20:03.740
 this is such a heavy thing, especially in other cultures that it's been pushed on them and they

00:20:03.740 --> 00:20:09.000
 don't, you don't know anything different. Um, when you grow up in that, where you don't realize that,

00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:17.640
 that toxic, toxic level of shame is so negative. And that is not the way that God intended us to feel

00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:21.820
 like when we have done something wrong and we need to, you know, ask for forgiveness or something like

00:20:21.820 --> 00:20:27.700
 that. So I would love to just hear kind of your insight into that as people who might be listening,

00:20:27.700 --> 00:20:33.860
 are trying to reach people who are, you know, grew up in a culture with that environment around them

00:20:33.860 --> 00:20:38.140
 where shame was so heavily, you know, a presence there.

00:20:38.580 --> 00:20:45.160
 That's a great question. I would say this is a topic that doesn't even get addressed and dealt

00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:51.140
 with when it comes, uh, meaning you want to be loving, uh, validating, encouraging, supporting,

00:20:51.320 --> 00:20:57.080
 edifying as long as possible to a healthy attachment is established. That's like first and foremost,

00:20:57.080 --> 00:21:02.460
 because think about when we first, at least for me, when I came to Christ, it's like I was on a pink

00:21:02.460 --> 00:21:08.740
 cloud of faith and I was a hot mess express that I didn't get conviction on yet. Cause I wasn't,

00:21:08.740 --> 00:21:12.780
 didn't know what I didn't know. And the Lord built that relationship with me in the beginning. Later

00:21:12.780 --> 00:21:19.880
 on conviction came where I was able to really feel that the guilt of what I did, but also how I wasn't

00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:24.520
 bringing joy to the father. I wasn't in alignment with what he wanted his best for me. And he was

00:21:24.520 --> 00:21:29.360
 ready to have that conversation with me at the perfect time. He does that perfectly. I don't,

00:21:29.360 --> 00:21:35.180
 we don't, he does, but the more we practice Megan, the better we can get at this. So I'll give you an

00:21:35.180 --> 00:21:39.480
 example. So let's shoot for the high bar from a Christian per kingdom, biblical perspective.

00:21:40.180 --> 00:21:47.480
 First Corinthians six, there's a story, uh, about they're suing each other in the Gentile church

00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:52.420
 in the, in the, in the church of Corinth. And they're taking each other to a, an unjust judge in a

00:21:52.420 --> 00:21:58.720
 Gentile court system. And the way we start in a healthy ecosystem and context to deal with this issue

00:21:58.720 --> 00:22:03.160
 of shame. It's like, Hey, wait a minute. Who are we as a people? Let's have our identity statements

00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:08.420
 first. We are a people of the kingdom that don't dispute one another in this way. We settle our

00:22:08.420 --> 00:22:14.200
 matters. We're people of reconciliation. That's who we are. Therefore we don't do these things. We

00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:19.460
 don't take people to court. So in verse four, here's what he says here, Megan. It says, therefore,

00:22:19.460 --> 00:22:23.920
 if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is

00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:32.560
 scorned in the church? I say this to shame you. Oh, Paul, what are you doing? Shaming the Corinthian

00:22:32.560 --> 00:22:36.920
 church? He does it in three other places. That same word is used. There's a couple other stories

00:22:36.920 --> 00:22:42.700
 in the Bible where he actually has a father over that church who he birthed. You have many teachers,

00:22:42.840 --> 00:22:47.160
 but you don't have many fathers because I love you. I love you. I want the best for you. Hey guys,

00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:52.120
 you're not acting like yourself in this situation. So I'm giving the big overarching,

00:22:52.500 --> 00:22:57.340
 hairy, audacious goal is to establish identity, healthy identity statements. This is who we are

00:22:57.340 --> 00:23:02.900
 as a people. Therefore we don't do these things. And the code becomes the healthy culture. Now,

00:23:03.520 --> 00:23:07.700
 shame in cultures that are shame based, you have to love people for a while to establish that

00:23:07.700 --> 00:23:13.500
 relationship of trust, to then move them into a kingdom context where they can actually start to

00:23:13.500 --> 00:23:18.320
 embrace and understand who God is through his scriptures, that God is this way. Therefore we

00:23:18.320 --> 00:23:21.920
 are this way. And therefore we don't do these things. And we're going to love you back to you.

00:23:22.320 --> 00:23:28.160
 And if you, if you get off center, that's okay. We'll correct you. But this thing is not bringing

00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:32.200
 joy to God's people or to him. And that's okay. Cause you don't know what you don't know,

00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:37.820
 or maybe you do. That's okay. But we're glad to be with you. We love you because we want to see you

00:23:37.820 --> 00:23:42.360
 fully develop into who God's made you to be. And there's some things that are not okay. And we got

00:23:42.360 --> 00:23:48.720
 to talk about that. And shame is the roadmap to correction, to character transformation. Okay.

00:23:51.320 --> 00:23:55.260
 There you go. So we went from Milan. Was it Milan we were starting with?

00:23:55.640 --> 00:24:00.180
 Yeah. We went from Disney back to the kingdom, back to Milan. So, you know, crazier things have

00:24:00.180 --> 00:24:04.440
 happened. That's right. Oh, Hey, one more thing I want to say about that word. It's called in

00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:08.380
 trepo. It's in the Greek. If you studied the word, you just do a Google search, new Testament,

00:24:08.380 --> 00:24:14.740
 Paul and shame. That word actually has a double edge to it. So you're back to your Milan example.

00:24:15.660 --> 00:24:21.600
 It actually in trepo in the positive means honor. It's almost like a military term when people go to

00:24:21.600 --> 00:24:26.920
 bootcamp and they're in the Marines, the Marine Corps has the code and we all do what the code says

00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:32.260
 because it brings honor and keeps us safe with one another. When you break the code, that shame,

00:24:32.340 --> 00:24:37.160
 you're bringing shame upon your unit, upon your battalion by how some of the soldiers may not do

00:24:37.160 --> 00:24:41.500
 what they're supposed to do according to the code. So that's kind of the, the biblical context of when

00:24:41.500 --> 00:24:46.560
 Paul's shaming, bringing shame to the equation, it's like, Hey, you guys are living outside of God's

00:24:46.560 --> 00:24:50.780
 camp here. This is not who we are as a people. We got to, we got to correct this. This is not okay.

00:24:50.780 --> 00:24:57.040
 Like, and a final example is when you got someone, a stepson having sex with his stepmother,

00:24:57.040 --> 00:25:01.580
 it's like, Hey, that's who the Gentile, that's who the Gentiles are. Not even the Gentiles do that

00:25:01.580 --> 00:25:06.940
 kind of stuff. We can't be okay with accepting that kind of behavior as God's people. That's not okay.

00:25:07.380 --> 00:25:12.700
 And shame is the antidote to help be a shock to the system. They'll be like, Oh yeah. Okay.

00:25:12.780 --> 00:25:15.640
 Thanks for telling me that. So then we can correct. Okay.

00:25:17.780 --> 00:25:24.840
 Yeah. So it's a big, I mean, it should be used as a growing like stepstone, right. And how to grow

00:25:24.840 --> 00:25:30.460
 and to be a better person, be a better disciple. Um, and so I would love to just learn, like,

00:25:31.040 --> 00:25:36.780
 what have you learned, um, maybe throughout your experiences, any personal or just things you've

00:25:36.780 --> 00:25:42.400
 walked other people through, but when the growth has happened and then maybe when growth hasn't

00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:46.780
 happened, where, where both sides of those can take you. So.

00:25:46.780 --> 00:25:53.600
 So this is a huge issue I work with, with a lot of men and starting with the chief of all being

00:25:53.600 --> 00:26:01.880
 shamers or being shamed my life growing up. Um, I had a very difficult childhood and I was, uh,

00:26:02.380 --> 00:26:07.760
 there was a lot of things that happened that I was toxically shamed. Let's just put it that way.

00:26:08.360 --> 00:26:15.800
 And, um, it really kept me stuck. It really kept me from being the, the, the spouse to my wife that I

00:26:15.800 --> 00:26:22.920
 needed to be in some areas. Cause I was still a child in a lot of ways. And I would do my best to

00:26:22.920 --> 00:26:28.340
 love my wife in certain areas that she's having me to try and do it, but it wasn't good enough for

00:26:28.340 --> 00:26:33.680
 her. Cause she's had such a lack in some of those areas for such a long time. The key Megan for me

00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:38.840
 was that I had other men who began to understand some of these principles that can help father me

00:26:38.840 --> 00:26:44.600
 to be strength for me when I disappointed and brought shame to my wife for the lack of the stuff

00:26:44.600 --> 00:26:48.800
 that she needed. And she tries to tell me, and I just don't know how to get there. And with what

00:26:48.800 --> 00:26:52.520
 little steps I take wasn't good enough, you know, it would happen. Shane would come up and it would

00:26:52.520 --> 00:26:57.740
 stunt me and I'd stop trying. So this is a, I don't know, probably every guy in this call,

00:26:57.800 --> 00:27:02.180
 if you're married, you have somewhat of an idea. And a, and a, and a, and a, and a wife understands

00:27:02.180 --> 00:27:09.620
 too, because husbands wives are not mandated by the Bible to love their husbands. They know how to do

00:27:09.620 --> 00:27:15.300
 that really well. Paul has to tell the men, Hey, love your wives, man. I already know how weak you are

00:27:15.300 --> 00:27:20.160
 in that. And when you have shame, especially toxic shame running through you, I needed other men

00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:25.360
 to be strength for me. And that's what we teach in our ministry and has said a discipleship network

00:27:25.360 --> 00:27:31.480
 is how do you help men's hearts to be okay, to be a mess in this area, to not do it well, to fail

00:27:31.480 --> 00:27:37.040
 and to have the glad face of other people with you in the moment that you're trying and we're plotting.

00:27:37.520 --> 00:27:42.460
 It's like, you're in the game, bro. This is amazing. Keep going. Failure is the way to success

00:27:42.460 --> 00:27:47.200
 and failure is not a bad thing. We say in business, even you got to fail X amount of times to have a

00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:51.120
 success. Well, the same thing goes true in relationships and with shame. It's the same

00:27:51.120 --> 00:27:54.920
 principle, but the problem is we're on our own as men, especially to figure that out. That's where

00:27:54.920 --> 00:28:00.080
 it gets really scary. And the enemy gets in there and he starts to beat us up. And then we just end

00:28:00.080 --> 00:28:06.200
 up blown up or blown out. And, uh, we stay stuck in toxic shame. So that's a personal example for me

00:28:06.200 --> 00:28:10.360
 is I fell short so many times with my wife, cause I wasn't given the tools to be a good husband

00:28:10.360 --> 00:28:17.280
 to her. That shame pushed me forward into deeper growth, but I needed men with me that had the glad

00:28:17.280 --> 00:28:22.500
 faces with me to say, we love you. We're with you in this. What do you need from us? And they,

00:28:22.540 --> 00:28:25.520
 and they, they rose up and joined me on that journey. There you go.

00:28:25.640 --> 00:28:30.440
 That seems to be a consistent theme that we've been talking about each week. You know, I, even

00:28:30.440 --> 00:28:36.220
 DJ, DJ Chong week one, removing the stigma, talk about it with others. I've, I've talked about,

00:28:36.220 --> 00:28:40.360
 you know, even, even my story within the past year of how, you know, there was a season earlier this

00:28:40.360 --> 00:28:45.520
 year where I was, was going through depression and even just saying the words to Andy Mage,

00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:52.020
 Hey, I'm depressed. You need to know that really remove 70, 80% of that, that stigma. Andy talks

00:28:52.020 --> 00:28:56.620
 last week about some of the things he was, he was going through with his inner critic and how

00:28:56.620 --> 00:29:01.560
 sharing it with his wife and really just spilling the can of worms everywhere and letting her,

00:29:01.560 --> 00:29:07.700
 you know, soak it in early on in their marriage really remove some of, of that power. And so

00:29:07.700 --> 00:29:14.620
 like, is, as, as we look at, you know, shame, it, is there really that much, like, what is it about

00:29:14.620 --> 00:29:22.340
 talking with people that removes that, removes the power from it? Is, is it just sharing the ideas or

00:29:22.340 --> 00:29:28.740
 like, is, is it helping find joy? Like, what is it within that relationship among other guys

00:29:28.740 --> 00:29:32.120
 or other, other people building on that? What, what are you feeling, Chris?

00:29:32.300 --> 00:29:37.040
 It's the, it's the faces. It's the mirroring back. Jeff, when you were young, the inner

00:29:37.040 --> 00:29:42.120
 start with Jeff creating the inner critic, you know, where that happened was because what was reflected

00:29:42.120 --> 00:29:48.620
 back to you is the mind imprints that. And then if we receive critical looks, critical comments,

00:29:48.620 --> 00:29:55.060
 then we begin to embody that. So the way to override that is new wiring of new faces that are glad to be

00:29:55.060 --> 00:29:59.120
 with you when you fail. Cause then you know what, then you start to smile and laugh when you fail.

00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:04.560
 It's like, Oh, it's okay for me. I'm not going to criticize myself anymore. And it takes the strength

00:30:04.560 --> 00:30:09.120
 of other people who know how to overcome in the areas where you're weak, that you can model them.

00:30:09.280 --> 00:30:14.720
 Follow me as I follow Christ. It's like, Oh, I'm going to act like Chris does. But if I had my father

00:30:14.720 --> 00:30:20.280
 mirrored back to me, disgust or, or the blank stare of anger and rage,

00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:25.740
 or he would just say, get out of my face, just get out of my face. And he turned his head like

00:30:25.740 --> 00:30:30.160
 this, turn his back on me. So what was the message as a young boy? I needed to perform.

00:30:30.740 --> 00:30:35.680
 I needed to criticize myself to get to what I needed. So I get him glad to be glad to be when

00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:41.120
 I'm performing. He's glad to be with me. So that's the key, Jeff. It's not the, the inner discovery,

00:30:41.120 --> 00:30:46.400
 the talking, you know, Megan, we, we work with clients. They, they, you know, and we're,

00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:50.940
 we're glad to be with them, but it's really rewiring the brain in community with men or with

00:30:50.940 --> 00:30:56.440
 women. If you're with women to have the glad face in those areas, to learn how to practice, to remap

00:30:56.440 --> 00:31:04.240
 new pathways, new neural pathways to joy and learn how to act. When I feel like I'm ashamed,

00:31:04.340 --> 00:31:07.800
 how does Chris do shame? That guy does it pretty well, man. I want to, I want to follow him.

00:31:08.040 --> 00:31:12.600
 I want to copy how he does it. And then after a couple months of practice, you start to rewire it.

00:31:12.600 --> 00:31:18.360
 One thing that I think we don't always realize is like, whatever situation we're going through,

00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:24.080
 like, you know, you and I have done some research into the brain, like we can rewire it. Those

00:31:24.080 --> 00:31:31.100
 neural pathways can be redirected. It's not, you're not gone, like a lost cause, no matter what your

00:31:31.100 --> 00:31:36.920
 situation is, you can redirect that. And so that's such an encouraging thing and hope that we can cling

00:31:36.920 --> 00:31:44.820
 to that that can be, you know, redirected for us. And I see it all the time. You know, we live in

00:31:44.820 --> 00:31:50.540
 social media world, right. Or right here on, on Twitch and, and all the different things in this

00:31:50.540 --> 00:31:58.440
 podcast. And we see people that go to that maybe when they do feel shame or they go to that and then

00:31:58.440 --> 00:32:05.240
 they do feel shame after going to social media. Um, what kind of impact do you, have you seen in

00:32:05.240 --> 00:32:09.220
 people that social media has played maybe positive or negative?

00:32:10.680 --> 00:32:17.320
 Yeah, I think, uh, it's brought some positive, but I think it's amplified some of the things where

00:32:17.320 --> 00:32:22.820
 in real life relationships, we haven't done so well. So it amplifies that too. Um, it could create more of

00:32:22.820 --> 00:32:30.080
 an avatar to hide behind when, you know, uh, I, I'm, I've told Jeff and, you know, for years, brother,

00:32:30.080 --> 00:32:34.920
 we've gone back and forth on this. I would love to see all of us as digital pastors have an on the

00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:40.480
 ground reality of what I'm talking about, even if it's just a few friends, you know, and then to be

00:32:40.480 --> 00:32:44.660
 able to have that capacity to launch from the ground, to go up in the air into the digital space,

00:32:44.660 --> 00:32:50.820
 to be able to transfer. Cause I'll tell you what, I lead a, a ministry of trying to create

00:32:50.820 --> 00:32:54.140
 emotionally healthy communities within the Christian world and doing it digitally. It's hard.

00:32:54.460 --> 00:32:59.480
 And I've been doing this for years on the ground to try and translate that into a digital space.

00:32:59.480 --> 00:33:07.180
 It takes a lot of time and practice and maturity and skill to know how to navigate the nuances of a

00:33:07.180 --> 00:33:11.900
 digital, of a, of a two dimensional screen. I'm, I'm all about digital church. I'm all about this

00:33:11.900 --> 00:33:18.980
 thing, but we must, as Mr. Miyagi once said, first learn, stand, then learn fly. Okay. Karate for

00:33:18.980 --> 00:33:24.320
 defense only. And, uh, then we learned how to punch. So we got to learn to keep our hearts

00:33:24.320 --> 00:33:28.000
 really strong, especially if you're pastors, digital leaders, your, your emotional health

00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:33.020
 needs to be primary, especially in on the ground ministry needs to be primary, but even double

00:33:33.020 --> 00:33:37.240
 down more so for those in the digital space, because the enemy does not like this ministry

00:33:37.240 --> 00:33:42.900
 doubly. So, cause you're invading his territory up in the satellite airwaves there. So I'll just,

00:33:43.020 --> 00:33:47.460
 I'll leave that out there for us to, to consider a little bit. What do you think, Megan?

00:33:48.380 --> 00:33:53.820
 No, I think that's so important because I, we said this before, you know, talking to somebody is so

00:33:53.820 --> 00:33:59.340
 important. So having those people, you can, you know, your go-to few, like your ride or die,

00:33:59.580 --> 00:34:04.520
 having those people you can talk to about anything and you don't feel judgment is going to help you

00:34:04.520 --> 00:34:09.480
 minister to those that are hurting. And there are so many hurting people out there. And so being able

00:34:09.480 --> 00:34:14.900
 to just sit across from someone else, whether it's on a screen or in a message and just listen,

00:34:14.900 --> 00:34:20.360
 not just trying to fix their problem, not trying to solve their problem, just listening, because

00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:26.260
 I feel like that's what a lot of people need. Um, especially when it comes to people feeling shame,

00:34:26.260 --> 00:34:31.780
 um, and especially that toxic side of shame, like they just need somebody to listen and not feel like

00:34:31.780 --> 00:34:36.140
 they're being judged and not feel like you're going to turn around and be like, Oh my gosh,

00:34:36.140 --> 00:34:40.740
 I can't believe what this person just said. Like they want that trust to be built. Like you were

00:34:40.740 --> 00:34:45.900
 talking about earlier. And so that's so important to continue that conversation with other people

00:34:45.900 --> 00:34:50.400
 as you have your own people to be able to have that conversation with for your personal self too.

00:34:51.060 --> 00:34:56.180
 Amen. And that's a critical skill we train on is how to do that. Well, how to presence with people,

00:34:56.180 --> 00:35:01.840
 not fixed, but just be with them. We call it validation to see them, to hear them and to

00:35:01.840 --> 00:35:06.840
 understand them in their language. That's their truth. Doesn't mean it's the gospel truth. It

00:35:06.840 --> 00:35:12.020
 doesn't matter if I agree or disagree, let people vomit and have the space to learn how to express

00:35:12.020 --> 00:35:16.300
 themselves and then pick up the vomit. This is going to sound weird, but to pick up the vomit and put it

00:35:16.300 --> 00:35:20.460
 back in them again. I know that was gross, like a dog eating the vomit, but that's how you build what

00:35:20.460 --> 00:35:25.540
 we call capacity is that you feel comfortable. That's the number one trauma. I was told by a trauma

00:35:25.540 --> 00:35:29.900
 therapist in Kansas city. I highly respect. She runs what's called the trauma healing center in

00:35:29.900 --> 00:35:34.620
 Kansas city, Melissa finger. She did a training for us at the Casey underground. She said the number one

00:35:34.620 --> 00:35:40.880
 cause of church hurt is when people just can't be heard or listened to. That's the number one thing

00:35:40.880 --> 00:35:45.620
 that backs up everyone else is that they don't feel safe to come out with their problems without

00:35:45.620 --> 00:35:51.900
 feeling judged, corrected, prayed over fixed, quoted scripture at like nobody wants that, at least on

00:35:51.900 --> 00:35:56.340
 the front end, especially when they have big emotions, they need a safe, tender presence to help bring

00:35:56.340 --> 00:36:00.200
 quieting to the big emotions that are happening. And if we don't know how to validate, well,

00:36:00.240 --> 00:36:03.760
 we're never going to have emotionally healthy Christian community. And I will stand by that

00:36:03.760 --> 00:36:08.880
 statement till the day I die. All right. So let me, let me pull the thread on this one. So we need to

00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:14.960
 validate, um, you're, you're, you're telling me validate, um, to validate, to literally pick up the

00:36:15.060 --> 00:36:22.020
 dog vomit and put it back in the dog. Like, I mean, at some level I'm, I'm not staying clean as, as a

00:36:22.020 --> 00:36:30.060
 pastor, a minister, I'm, I'm, I'm getting down and dirty into this situation. Um, and so I'm not

00:36:30.060 --> 00:36:35.960
 standing behind a pulpit preaching, uh, I'm in the, in the life of this person. Secondhand trauma is a

00:36:35.960 --> 00:36:44.920
 thing. How, how do we, uh, validate, how do we affirm, uh, without getting burned, without getting,

00:36:44.920 --> 00:36:51.560
 uh, carrying the weight, without getting pulled down, um, into those, those struggles. I mean,

00:36:51.560 --> 00:36:55.420
 cause we, we don't want to do that, but we want to protect ourselves. But at the same time,

00:36:55.420 --> 00:36:59.580
 we need to validate, which means we need to, to get down. Give, give, give us some practical advice

00:36:59.580 --> 00:37:06.460
 here. It's a skill called self-care. You deal with secondhand trauma by self-caring for yourself and

00:37:06.460 --> 00:37:11.000
 getting what you need to refill and to get that thing worked out. Otherwise, if you let secondhand

00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:15.200
 trauma become your primary trauma, you're going to get taken out. It's that in us as counselors,

00:37:15.200 --> 00:37:19.620
 Megan will back me up on this. We deal with what's called counter-transference in the professional

00:37:19.620 --> 00:37:25.120
 world. We've got to learn not to vomit our own things and opinions on people,

00:37:25.120 --> 00:37:30.500
 because we get triggered. So validation is not about me. It's about that other person being with

00:37:30.500 --> 00:37:35.940
 them in it and their truth. He needs, and here's what will happen, Jeff. The more we're able to do

00:37:35.940 --> 00:37:40.280
 that, we become a gentle protector of people's hearts. They give us more of their hearts and

00:37:40.280 --> 00:37:43.420
 they'll actually start listening to your counsel. When it's time to get to the solutions, they'll

00:37:43.420 --> 00:37:48.880
 actually start doing it. So I say, stretch the gap of validation to be with people. If you have low

00:37:48.880 --> 00:37:53.620
 capacity for it, then who are your people that are around you that are pouring into you on the ground,

00:37:53.620 --> 00:37:58.160
 not digitally, on the ground where you live, because that's your home base. Jesus had Peter,

00:37:58.160 --> 00:38:01.900
 James, and John as his three best friends. The Lord himself needed those three guys

00:38:01.900 --> 00:38:06.800
 to refresh him, to pray for him, to go to the top of the mountain and to the garden of Gethsemane.

00:38:07.060 --> 00:38:13.580
 Jesus himself. Think about that, gang. Jesus moves in concentric cervicals of leadership. He had those

00:38:13.580 --> 00:38:19.820
 three who Paul refers to as the foundation in the book of Galatians. So who are your three? Or two,

00:38:19.940 --> 00:38:24.880
 at least have two, three total. That would be my response to that with secondhand trauma, Jeff.

00:38:25.080 --> 00:38:33.160
 Sorry, I would also add, like, know yourself enough. Like, if you have such a, like, helper mentality,

00:38:33.160 --> 00:38:38.900
 and that's what God has gifted you with, like, you want to be able to help them. But also, like, in doing

00:38:38.900 --> 00:38:45.620
 that, a lot of times, you try to take on what they're feeling. And that's where it goes to. So have that

00:38:45.620 --> 00:38:50.520
 and be able to set up boundaries where you bring yourself back to reality. Be like, okay, this is

00:38:50.520 --> 00:38:55.920
 their situation. I want to be there for them as much as I can. I want to help them in any way

00:38:55.920 --> 00:39:02.440
 possible. But I have to also realize, I can't, like, I can't do it. I can't change what's happening

00:39:02.440 --> 00:39:08.860
 in their life. And so when you can put that boundary in place and put that reality, ground yourself a

00:39:08.860 --> 00:39:13.360
 little bit, that can help. And when you know yourself and know how you respond to those things, that makes

00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:17.840
 a big difference. Because there's going to be some people that they can care for people, but that's

00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:21.760
 not going to be as big of a struggle, because their personalities don't lean towards that.

00:39:22.300 --> 00:39:26.860
 And that's the power of team, right, is having those people where you're weak, you have other

00:39:26.860 --> 00:39:31.920
 people who have strength in those areas, you can have them help you bear the load. That's excellent.

00:39:32.060 --> 00:39:32.780
 That's a great point.

00:39:33.100 --> 00:39:38.100
 So good. We're actually in the process of building in, you know, even talking about the counterbalance

00:39:38.100 --> 00:39:42.880
 and strengths and weaknesses. Yeah, I know you're a big APES guy, Chris. We've really been

00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:50.420
 beating in the idea of APES. We had Alan Hirsch, actually was episode 300, and pitched that idea

00:39:50.420 --> 00:39:55.740
 of APES in digital context. And some of the digital planters and missionaries really been

00:39:55.740 --> 00:40:00.340
 struggling with that. And we're creating some digital missiology curriculum, starting to unpack

00:40:00.340 --> 00:40:06.340
 that even bigger, which really complements that idea of creating a well-balanced, not only team,

00:40:06.460 --> 00:40:11.700
 but even empowering individuals to find their strengths and weaknesses and administering in

00:40:11.700 --> 00:40:14.000
 that. So that's a good parallel.

00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:21.940
 Yeah, that's, for us, that is the number one strategy to find unity and maturity in Ephesians

00:40:21.940 --> 00:40:27.440
 4. It's like we talk about APES, but what is it unto? Read the rest of Ephesians 4. It's

00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:31.620
 unto, so we don't get tossed to and fro. So we have the fullness of maturity, the fullness

00:40:31.620 --> 00:40:36.280
 of love for one another happens through the five expressions of Christ coming together in a unified

00:40:36.280 --> 00:40:41.420
 way where they honor and prefer each other and the gifts that everybody carries. If you have a culture

00:40:41.420 --> 00:40:45.700
 like that, it's really hard to stop the kingdom from advancing powerfully as your team.

00:40:46.300 --> 00:40:52.460
 So I would love to hear, bringing it back to shame and guilt just a little bit, is what's a piece

00:40:52.460 --> 00:40:58.060
 of advice you would give somebody? Obviously, we talked about talking about it, finding your people,

00:40:58.620 --> 00:41:04.720
 but if maybe somebody doesn't have those people right now, what is a piece of advice that can help

00:41:04.720 --> 00:41:09.060
 someone that's dealing with maybe this toxic shame in their own life?

00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:14.020
 Well, it's a great commercial, Megan, for our training. We have a four-week Hesed Learning

00:41:14.020 --> 00:41:19.360
 Community where we train on those things. That's for free. Don't cost you a dime. It just costs you

00:41:19.360 --> 00:41:24.060
 four hours over four weeks and then free ongoing coaching after that. But to answer your question

00:41:24.060 --> 00:41:29.920
 more directly, I think it's something that you should get studied up on shame and really

00:41:29.920 --> 00:41:36.060
 understand the impacts and the toxicity of it and understand that that is from the Garden of Eden.

00:41:36.420 --> 00:41:42.160
 That is a source of character correction and actually, it actually brings deeper bonding,

00:41:42.320 --> 00:41:46.760
 believe it or not. When there's, you know, when you get restored from shame, it builds such trust

00:41:46.760 --> 00:41:52.580
 and currency in relationships that the repair from shame is the most, one of the most powerful glues,

00:41:52.680 --> 00:41:56.020
 especially on your team and ministry when you're working with people.

00:41:56.680 --> 00:42:01.080
 If you're on your own, I would say stop being on your own. Really, really evaluate that. I mean,

00:42:01.100 --> 00:42:05.960
 get going, get started. I get it. Don't quit. Don't stop what you're doing, but always think ahead.

00:42:06.860 --> 00:42:13.540
 Listen, the kingdom himself, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is a trinity, is a three space. The whole,

00:42:13.640 --> 00:42:17.640
 the kingdom of God is not run by one of them. It's written by, it's all three of them.

00:42:18.140 --> 00:42:23.820
 So you need to, we need to really understand and evaluate. We don't want to become the lone

00:42:23.820 --> 00:42:27.800
 rangers that become the weird strangers in ministry. We don't want to do that because that's

00:42:27.800 --> 00:42:31.700
 what will happen. We're not built to be all by ourselves in this. That's your first thing is

00:42:31.700 --> 00:42:36.400
 be intentional to have people in your life, A, that can love you without being the minister

00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:42.500
 and the pastor. B, you have a team where you can develop those healthy skills to learn how to

00:42:42.500 --> 00:42:45.640
 navigate shameful things that are going to come up because people are going to malfunction.

00:42:45.980 --> 00:42:50.200
 It's going to happen. So get trained and don't be alone. That would, that would be my first

00:42:50.200 --> 00:42:53.320
 two key pointers on that. If you're out there by yourself.

00:42:53.680 --> 00:42:56.440
 Trying to think through, cause I mean, you've hit on so many good things.

00:42:57.120 --> 00:43:03.040
 It's like, I'm like, where do I go from here? No, you have, you hit on so many good things and

00:43:03.040 --> 00:43:10.380
 I love just your heart behind it and that you see the whole person. Um, and that's thing,

00:43:10.380 --> 00:43:16.220
 something we've talked about throughout all these episodes in this season is like looking at the

00:43:16.220 --> 00:43:21.440
 whole person and that's the way God intended it. He intended us to be a whole person. And I think

00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:27.560
 we've forgot that somewhere along the way. So bringing that back and working towards finding that whole

00:43:27.560 --> 00:43:34.140
 person again, um, and being healthy in that is, it's a huge piece. And, um, I love your take on

00:43:34.140 --> 00:43:42.240
 self-care because that's one that we, uh, put to the side, maybe even as Christians or people in

00:43:42.240 --> 00:43:48.100
 ministry. And I've talked about this before, I think too, is that we get so heavily invested in

00:43:48.100 --> 00:43:54.560
 doing things and feel like we have to be on call 24 seven. Um, and then if we're not, we may start

00:43:54.560 --> 00:43:59.780
 feeling some of that toxic shame of, well, what if something happens? What if this, we start playing

00:43:59.780 --> 00:44:06.760
 the what if game. And so that can be so just so hard, um, when it, when it comes to that. So I

00:44:06.760 --> 00:44:12.080
 think it's a really good reminder to, to bring ourselves back, to take care of ourselves so that

00:44:12.080 --> 00:44:15.480
 we can in turn help other people through different life situations.

00:44:15.740 --> 00:44:21.420
 I would say the book called the other half of church written by Jim Wilder and Michael Hendricks

00:44:21.420 --> 00:44:27.080
 is needs to be in all of our libraries. I can't say enough about that book. It goes into chapters on

00:44:27.080 --> 00:44:33.520
 shame is epic. The way it's, I've done my best to do what they say in that book, but also how to

00:44:33.520 --> 00:44:38.580
 cultivate the ingredients to a healthy community, Christian community expression are laid out in that

00:44:38.580 --> 00:44:44.400
 book. I would suggest that go ahead, Jeff. Totally and completely recommend that book. Um, uh, we've, uh,

00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:49.320
 we've, we've read it, we've taught it. Um, I've actually talked with the authors about it. It's

00:44:49.320 --> 00:44:56.980
 interesting. They don't, they actually are not a big fan of digital slash social media and social

00:44:56.980 --> 00:45:04.020
 media is awful. They're not wrong. Um, but you know, their view of community is among some of the

00:45:04.020 --> 00:45:11.520
 digital pastors that we work with, like is challenging us on how we're defining digital community. Like

00:45:11.520 --> 00:45:16.940
 they're, they're setting the standards at some level and they're talking about a physical context that,

00:45:17.020 --> 00:45:22.780
 that we're leaning into, into digitally. And so I, I, you know, I've, I've, Chris made that

00:45:22.780 --> 00:45:28.560
 recommendation of a book for me on maybe two or three years ago. And, uh, I, I can't, I can't tell

00:45:28.560 --> 00:45:33.720
 you how many times I've brought that up in conversations and conferences and things like that.

00:45:33.720 --> 00:45:40.300
 So very good. Hey, I wanted to, I wanted to flex on something. I asked a question. Um, I'm on my

00:45:40.300 --> 00:45:46.060
 mind. I'm just, I'm trying to take all of this and, and, and spin it into a practical environment.

00:45:46.060 --> 00:45:55.440
 Right. And so as what I'm understanding is part of what we're trying to do is, is as ministers,

00:45:55.440 --> 00:46:00.380
 as pastors that are, that are going, people that are going through guilt and to prevent

00:46:00.380 --> 00:46:05.960
 from toxic shame is where we're putting on a smile, we're reflecting love, we're jumping

00:46:05.960 --> 00:46:12.860
 down and, and, and, and validating and affirming them in that and through joy, pulling them back

00:46:12.860 --> 00:46:24.200
 out. Um, at some level, what we're doing though is could be causing guilt. Like they can be reflective

00:46:24.200 --> 00:46:29.920
 in too reflective in what they're doing and they can be taking a simple word with the inner critic

00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:36.060
 to a much deeper level. Like we could be saying X and they're going all the way to Z and in which,

00:46:36.060 --> 00:46:42.640
 you know, paints it into a difficult environment. How do we, you know, especially

00:46:42.640 --> 00:46:48.860
 digitally, things get lost in context, true meaning it's text, you know, they're not seeing body

00:46:48.860 --> 00:46:56.920
 actions in physical space. It's sometimes it's hard to read emotions. Um, how do we keep ourselves

00:46:56.920 --> 00:47:04.640
 in check? How do we keep the other person in check so that what we're saying isn't, um, misunderstood

00:47:04.640 --> 00:47:11.280
 or, or misconstrued and taken to a darker level? Like we don't want to drive people into toxicity

00:47:11.280 --> 00:47:18.460
 level. Uh, but sometimes our, our words do need to carry weight to help them understand, uh, what they

00:47:18.460 --> 00:47:24.340
 need to do is wrong and getting out of that. How do we, how do we, where's the line of healthy and

00:47:24.340 --> 00:47:29.140
 unhealthy, not for us, but for the people we're doing ministry with?

00:47:29.500 --> 00:47:35.600
 I think we need to start with the word of God. I'll give you, I'll give you three verses. If you're,

00:47:35.720 --> 00:47:40.240
 especially my theologian brothers on this call right now, I, I, I want you to wrestle with God on

00:47:40.240 --> 00:47:45.680
 this. That's the first thing because we've got to land theologically in a place that's healthy

00:47:45.680 --> 00:47:52.740
 because then health will outflow from that. First Corinthians six, five, second Thessalonians

00:47:52.740 --> 00:48:01.940
 three, 14 and Titus two, eight. It's the same word. And to, to really biblically, it's like Paul

00:48:01.940 --> 00:48:10.780
 is using that S word, uh, in a very strategic way with his people. And the first thing though, I would

00:48:10.780 --> 00:48:16.260
 say, uh, Jeff is that we need to, how to build healthy attachments with one another is the primary

00:48:16.260 --> 00:48:21.320
 focus. Salvation with God is healthy attachment because we're not going to hell. We're going to

00:48:21.320 --> 00:48:26.240
 have, we're getting pulled up with him, with Jesus and father and Holy spirit. We also must have healthy

00:48:26.240 --> 00:48:33.600
 attachments with one another. Okay. When we're not acting like ourselves, we got to have a healthy

00:48:33.600 --> 00:48:39.880
 correction protocol. And if you can tell, if someone can tell me another way around shame to do it,

00:48:39.880 --> 00:48:45.520
 I'm open to it, but it's done in a way where it's relational, it's connected. It's identity based

00:48:45.520 --> 00:48:51.160
 where we are people who are this, you are not that behavior. You're loving people, encouraging them,

00:48:51.240 --> 00:48:54.780
 being strong for them. I know this may not, this sounds a little airy fairy. And like,

00:48:54.820 --> 00:48:58.800
 what is this guy talking about? Well, I'm starting with the scriptures. I'm starting with how Paul did

00:48:58.800 --> 00:49:05.140
 it. Okay. So we need to wrestle with these words. We need to have language. We got to learn how to say

00:49:05.420 --> 00:49:11.940
 actually shame is healthy. Toxic shame needs to go on the cross. Absolutely. Hallelujah. Cause we're

00:49:11.940 --> 00:49:16.860
 not alone anymore in those feelings, but in a community context, shame is the most powerful

00:49:16.860 --> 00:49:22.680
 antidote to transformation health in a community. Now you either can buy that or not go take it out

00:49:22.680 --> 00:49:27.740
 with Paul and then go to the father and then get, get upset with him and say, Lord, I don't like this.

00:49:27.740 --> 00:49:32.580
 And he's going to go, I love you. I keep coming. Come on. More answers are going to come. So we need

00:49:32.580 --> 00:49:37.460
 revelation, Jeff. We need understanding. We need a reset of our paradigms. If we don't believe in,

00:49:37.600 --> 00:49:42.020
 if, if what I'm telling you, you don't believe it, that's okay. I love you. I'm glad to be with you.

00:49:42.560 --> 00:49:47.100
 But I had to wrestle with this too. Cause shame almost, I almost killed myself. I was suicidal for

00:49:47.100 --> 00:49:51.720
 years until the Lord came. And then I got more understanding of this. Now I'm actually embracing it.

00:49:52.220 --> 00:49:56.740
 I'm like, bring the shame, baby. Let's go. If I'm, if I'm connected to you in love and health,

00:49:56.740 --> 00:50:00.240
 I love it. Cause it brings, because of the blows of a friend

00:50:00.240 --> 00:50:07.120
 are more helpful than the smiles of an enemy. There's some proverbial, some proverbial,

00:50:07.240 --> 00:50:12.060
 that's from Proverbs, man. It's from Proverbs. I don't get, I got the address on that, but let's

00:50:12.060 --> 00:50:16.660
 study the scriptures first, Jeff. Let's get a biblical foundation of this. And then let's go from

00:50:16.660 --> 00:50:20.760
 there. I don't know, Megan, what do you think? Is that, am I on the right track? Give me some

00:50:20.760 --> 00:50:26.580
 healthy shame if I'm off base on that, please. No, I agree. The only thing I would add to it is

00:50:26.580 --> 00:50:31.980
 there has to be that foundation of trust built with that person you're talking to. If you don't have

00:50:31.980 --> 00:50:38.200
 that, then that's where that toxic piece comes in. Cause I can think of growing up in the church

00:50:38.200 --> 00:50:42.260
 and people were like, well, I'm just speaking the truth. And I'm like, yeah, but like, you don't

00:50:42.260 --> 00:50:48.040
 have the right to speak into their life right now. And so that's, that's a huge piece. And that's

00:50:48.040 --> 00:50:54.240
 in any, whether we're in person meeting with people or we're digitally, like that trust has to be built

00:50:54.240 --> 00:50:59.900
 first before you can speak into somebody's life like that. So that's where leading everything

00:50:59.900 --> 00:51:04.280
 you do with love, you know, following love the Lord God with their heart, soul, mind and strength

00:51:04.280 --> 00:51:08.940
 and love your neighbor as yourself, like leading with love. And then you can help step into their

00:51:08.940 --> 00:51:15.940
 life and step in and be like, Hey, hold up. Let's reevaluate what's going on here. And that

00:51:15.940 --> 00:51:23.240
 will be get like taken with so much more respect. Um, it will be taken to heart rather than just

00:51:23.240 --> 00:51:29.680
 somebody being like, you're wrong. I can't believe you would do that. And then they just put up a wall.

00:51:29.680 --> 00:51:35.880
 So like anything you're trying to like, tell them about Jesus and share with them that wall has been

00:51:35.880 --> 00:51:40.540
 built. And that's going to be really hard to break that down before you can speak back into their life.

00:51:40.540 --> 00:51:46.380
 So that's, that's the only thing I would add everything else. Amen to what you said. And I want to apologize.

00:51:46.380 --> 00:51:51.740
 I don't want you popping me in the middle of a conversation. That's like chapter six of a book that I

00:51:51.740 --> 00:51:58.360
 train people on. I'm giving you like, this is like the stake of the stake is this one thing right here.

00:51:58.460 --> 00:52:01.780
 So thank you, Jeff, for bringing me on to one of the hardest topics on the body of Christ.

00:52:02.540 --> 00:52:08.340
 But it's the truth. This is hard stuff to talk about gang. And what you said, Megan is right on

00:52:08.340 --> 00:52:12.840
 point. I couldn't agree more to establish that foundation. Yeah, I'm telling you, this is just

00:52:12.840 --> 00:52:20.940
 first off a great interview, great conversation. Um, I want to give you props, Chris, like you're,

00:52:21.020 --> 00:52:29.660
 you're communicating this very clearly. I was, um, I was nervous coming into this because it's like,

00:52:29.660 --> 00:52:37.000
 man, these are deep concepts and you're, you're really hitting stuff very well. Like do you through

00:52:37.000 --> 00:52:41.760
 has said, and, and, and I want you to talk a little bit about has said, but do you, it sounds like you,

00:52:41.900 --> 00:52:48.420
 you deal with this theme a lot in, in your, in your, in your discipleship network and in the movements

00:52:48.420 --> 00:52:54.660
 that you're trying to create, like maybe talk a little bit about has said, and how this stuff

00:52:54.660 --> 00:53:00.640
 interacts with what you're doing on a regular basis. Well, just you saying that Jeff is a testimony of

00:53:00.640 --> 00:53:08.560
 some of the work I've been doing with my speaking and something that where I don't bring joy to a

00:53:08.560 --> 00:53:13.760
 room as I start to increase the rate of my talking and teaching, when I feel people are overwhelmed or

00:53:13.760 --> 00:53:18.880
 they don't understand or don't even like what I'm saying, I get triggered and I would hit the gas

00:53:18.880 --> 00:53:24.920
 pedal and accelerate when really I'm learning to slow down, to use my words well, and to let people

00:53:24.920 --> 00:53:31.080
 have their disagreements, to let them have their space to, to, to really wrestle with me on some

00:53:31.080 --> 00:53:36.180
 things that gives them agency, that gives them dignity. Instead, I would just like motor through

00:53:36.180 --> 00:53:40.280
 and you know, this bro, you, you know, you hate the way that you're even that testimony, you know,

00:53:40.340 --> 00:53:45.400
 I used to be. And I've taken a couple of years to work on this and thank you for seeing this as part

00:53:45.400 --> 00:53:51.220
 of the work of what we do is, uh, emotional maturity. That's another piece of this is that

00:53:51.220 --> 00:53:56.940
 we learn to grow up in some areas where we have gaps to identify those gaps. Now the authors of

00:53:56.940 --> 00:54:02.560
 that other half of church book have some really good models of the gaps that we can identify

00:54:02.560 --> 00:54:08.020
 throughout our history and how to fill those gaps in community with Jesus. And I've been going hard

00:54:08.020 --> 00:54:12.740
 after it brought taming my tongue is really what the skill is. I needed to learn how to do that

00:54:12.740 --> 00:54:18.760
 and to not overwhelm people so that they, it hurts my, it hurts my message. It hurts the ministry that

00:54:18.760 --> 00:54:23.740
 I'm trying to do and people aren't getting it in the name of me saying, you're going to get this

00:54:23.740 --> 00:54:29.680
 and I'm going to run you over in my beautiful, subtle ways, you know, and I'm not even, it's not

00:54:29.680 --> 00:54:33.860
 even conscious, bro. So I need to get called out on that. People would call that out in me and it

00:54:33.860 --> 00:54:39.300
 brought shame. I felt ashamed. So here you go. Here's the living testimony. It didn't bring joy to

00:54:39.300 --> 00:54:44.000
 people. I needed to learn how to work on that. And that took skill and that's a community. It took

00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:49.180
 time to got through it because it was my own trauma. I grew up in a family of people. When I would talk

00:54:49.180 --> 00:54:54.760
 as a young kid, it would be like, I had this kind of prophetic to me as a kid. I'd see the truth, call it

00:54:54.760 --> 00:55:01.240
 out and I catch a beating for it. I would, I would be put in very difficult circumstances. And it was not,

00:55:01.240 --> 00:55:06.160
 I was, what I was saying was correct. But as a child, you don't understand some things and you don't have

00:55:06.160 --> 00:55:10.660
 parents that know how to, especially they're off in other directions, not following the Lord. Certainly

00:55:10.660 --> 00:55:16.160
 it got me into a lot of trouble. So I had to learn to do some, some things that were not helpful to

00:55:16.160 --> 00:55:22.460
 my soul. So has said, as part of our training is we help you identify those things, not to shame you,

00:55:22.940 --> 00:55:27.740
 but to do an audit of yourself to say, Hey, I'm stuck in some of these areas. Let's come around you.

00:55:27.740 --> 00:55:33.300
 How can we fill those gaps within community as Christ gets transferred through one another in a second

00:55:33.300 --> 00:55:38.320
 commandment way? So that's another piece. I mean, has said, that's a huge question. Yes, I can't, I'm just

00:55:38.320 --> 00:55:46.040
 giving a practical, this whole, this whole interview is a testimony of the fruit of my own life, of what I'm

00:55:46.040 --> 00:55:48.620
 teaching. I'm hopefully adapting it to my own life as well.

00:55:48.620 --> 00:55:57.880
 Yeah. So, so just like you're, I hate to say this, like, because I don't want this to be interpreted

00:55:57.880 --> 00:56:03.700
 negatively, but I can remember having conversations with you a couple of years ago, you know, on, on

00:56:03.700 --> 00:56:10.100
 topics, not this topic, but other topics. And it's just, I just, I'm, I'm literally blown away. And,

00:56:10.180 --> 00:56:15.020
 you know, I'm used to blowing people away with radical concepts and stuff like this. And so I, I know,

00:56:15.180 --> 00:56:19.700
 I know what that looks, looks like. And, and I, you know, I just, uh, anytime it was with you on,

00:56:19.700 --> 00:56:26.920
 on deep stuff, like it was that, but this, like your, the improvements is, is marketable. Like it's,

00:56:26.920 --> 00:56:33.420
 it's noticeable, uh, going from what was to what is. And so, man, congratulations. If somebody wants

00:56:33.420 --> 00:56:37.500
 to get in touch with you to talk about has said, what's, what's the website, what's the best way to

00:56:37.500 --> 00:56:41.460
 get, get in touch and then move forward, uh, learning more about what you're doing. Support

00:56:41.460 --> 00:56:52.060
 at, and it's one word, three words, has said H E S D discipleship network.com support at has said

00:56:52.060 --> 00:57:01.920
 discipleship network.com. And that's has said H E S E D. Correct. Okay. H E S E D discipleship

00:57:01.920 --> 00:57:08.160
 network.com support. Very, very cool. Um, man, this has been Megan. It's been a lot of,

00:57:08.160 --> 00:57:12.620
 a lot of, uh, well, I mean, I don't know if funds the right word. I started to say fun. I mean,

00:57:12.620 --> 00:57:18.780
 I love hanging out with my friend, but, um, I mean, some, some, some heady, heady topics. What was,

00:57:18.860 --> 00:57:25.820
 what was the proverb, uh, uh, a punch from your friend is better than a worth more than the smiles

00:57:25.820 --> 00:57:30.320
 is more important than something like it's more, the smiles of an enemy is what you don't want.

00:57:30.480 --> 00:57:35.020
 Smiles of an enemy, a punch from a friend. Okay. All right. So I'll have to like, you know,

00:57:35.020 --> 00:57:41.580
 deck my friend, you know, moving forward. I, I do. There's a, there's an interesting, um,

00:57:42.440 --> 00:57:46.440
 I don't want to have this conversation now because there, I don't know that there's time,

00:57:46.440 --> 00:57:52.420
 but I'm filing this away. Cause I really want to, I would do like another 20 minutes just on this idea

00:57:52.420 --> 00:57:59.660
 of you were talking about your inner circle, the three. Um, and you alluded to that being, uh, like a,

00:57:59.660 --> 00:58:07.360
 uh, you needed a physical base to be grounded in. Um, and part of me is like, yeah. And then part

00:58:07.360 --> 00:58:14.540
 of me is like, but, and so I don't, in my mind, I just, I'm like putting a flag on this. I may want

00:58:14.540 --> 00:58:19.740
 to like, Hey, Chris, let's come back and let's, let's, let's have that conversation again. Uh, because

00:58:19.740 --> 00:58:26.540
 I, I agree that we need to get grounded. You know, I'm all about, um, walking, you know, there,

00:58:26.660 --> 00:58:30.780
 some of my friends talk about like taking a, taking a walk in the woods and just getting

00:58:30.780 --> 00:58:35.700
 grounded in the nature. And there's this really, this interesting line. I don't know why this

00:58:35.700 --> 00:58:40.260
 resonates so much with me, but there's this really interesting throwaway line in the movie

00:58:40.260 --> 00:58:45.500
 die hard where they're trying to get rid of being on jet lag. Cause he's flying across the country

00:58:45.500 --> 00:58:50.880
 and, uh, and the guy sitting next to him on the plane, it means nothing for the entirety of the

00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:54.080
 movie, but the guy sitting next to him on the plane is like, Oh, just, you know, take your

00:58:54.080 --> 00:58:58.140
 shoes off and walk into carpet, bare feet. That always gets rid of jet lag for me.

00:58:58.980 --> 00:59:04.100
 Who cares? But in the, in the context of what happens at Nakatoshi tower at the middle of,

00:59:04.100 --> 00:59:09.420
 you know, Christmas Eve, but the, the idea of the physical interaction, having, you know,

00:59:09.440 --> 00:59:14.640
 impact into who you are, I think resonates strongly. And I know Chris is like itching to have this

00:59:14.640 --> 00:59:18.120
 conversation. I'm not going to let you cause we're going to come back and we're going to,

00:59:18.120 --> 00:59:22.000
 we're going to dig into that at a later point. But I just want you to know, like,

00:59:22.080 --> 00:59:28.480
 in my mind, you said that I caught that. And, and I am unpacking that at some level internally

00:59:28.480 --> 00:59:33.820
 in a, in a healthy, non-toxic environment, non-judgmental on either side. Cause I appreciate

00:59:33.820 --> 00:59:40.820
 the, um, I'm trying to see if I can do it. Is it guilt? I appreciate the guilt. No, cause it's,

00:59:40.820 --> 00:59:44.440
 I'm not internal. Anyway, I appreciate the comment. I don't want to read too much into it.

00:59:44.860 --> 00:59:48.940
 I am not going into pop psychology where I have no idea what the crap I'm talking about. So I'm not

00:59:48.940 --> 00:59:53.120
 going to go there. Stay in your lane, brother. Stay in your lane. Stay in my lane. Exactly.

00:59:53.760 --> 00:59:56.580
 Let me, and that's how I'm going to land the plane before I screw this thing up anymore.

00:59:56.680 --> 01:00:01.480
 Inner critic. Okay. But so we are good. Uh, I always love like the last two minutes. There's

01:00:01.480 --> 01:00:06.820
 so much fun. Megan Carter, you've been so good landing the plane over the past couple of weeks.

01:00:06.960 --> 01:00:11.400
 I'm going to throw this to you as we're wrapping up here. Any closing thoughts on your side?

01:00:12.400 --> 01:00:16.400
 No, I think the biggest thing she's got nothing. Okay. No, go ahead.

01:00:18.340 --> 01:00:23.720
 Be like, Oh no, not this time. No, the biggest, the biggest thing I think it, a lot of it boils

01:00:23.720 --> 01:00:29.540
 down to is like not letting that shame and that toxic shame become your identity. Right. And that's

01:00:29.540 --> 01:00:34.560
 where we start taking it and we go isolate ourself. So don't let it become your identity. It's not who

01:00:34.560 --> 01:00:40.680
 you are. So let's learn how to grow from it. And when you grow, you're going to be so much more than

01:00:40.680 --> 01:00:45.200
 you ever thought you could be too. It's a great learning piece. Like you said, Chris, that, you

01:00:45.200 --> 01:00:50.600
 know, failure is not like the worst thing in the world. It really does help you grow. And if we can

01:00:50.600 --> 01:00:56.520
 start shifting our mindset on that, that can change. And it can, I think be pretty revolutionary of

01:00:56.520 --> 01:01:01.720
 changing your life and other people's too. Beautiful. And with that, we're going to wrap up.

01:01:01.800 --> 01:01:08.200
 So for Chris, for Megan, this is Jeff with the church digital. Thanks for jumping here on the podcast.

01:01:08.200 --> 01:01:12.600
 We'll see you next time on the show. Twitch people. Thanks for hanging out. Y'all have a good day.