WEBVTT

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 I think there's an idolatry to our productivity.

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 When we're weak, when we're tired, we start looking for hits, you know, almost like an

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 addictive language you could use.

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 We start looking for hits to feel better.

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 A lot of the public acclaim and the productivity that comes with the wins of our leadership

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 can become quite addictive.

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 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

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 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the Church,

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 but more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

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 Is disciple making possible digitally?

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 How should we approach the digital mission field?

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 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space?

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 Oh, and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this?

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 Whether you're a big or small church, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours

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 learn to be a multiplying church digitally and physically.

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 And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

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 All right.

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 Hey, everybody.

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 Welcome to the Church Digital.

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 We are doing a live recording here.

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 We're in the middle of...

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 Oh, that's right.

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 I'm doing this on YouTube as well.

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 I forgot that.

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 We're broadcasting this live on Twitch.

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 Little screen popped up here on Riverside that said, don't forget about YouTube.

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 And so, hey, we're doing this live on Twitch and on YouTube at the same time.

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 And so, but here on the Church Digital, we're in the middle of season nine.

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 Crap.

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 I did it again.

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 I always forget the numbers.

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 I had an executive pastor told me one time, he's like, Jeff, never forget your numbers.

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 And yeah, I forget the numbers all the time.

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 But I know this is episode 311 of the Church Digital Podcast and we're doing a season here

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 We're in digital and mental health.

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 And I am excited.

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 I am excited about this conversation because every time we bring this guest on, it is informative.

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 It is heartwarming.

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 It is challenging.

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 And this is like, well, we're talking off air.

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 It's like one of my favorite people.

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 And so, right off the bat, let's just bring on Mindy Caliguire to the conversation.

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 Mindy, how are you, my friend?

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 Jeff, I'm good today.

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 I'm doing really well.

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 Oh, my gosh.

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 It has been way too long.

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 And I am so glad to have you on this podcast.

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 I'm looking forward to the conversation.

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 We're going to get into the digital mental health.

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 And I want to talk about rest and founder of soulcare.com.

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 I mean, you are so good in this space.

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 And I'm so in need of this at a personal level.

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 But before we get into that, you've got a book like coming out next week or something.

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 It is a week from today.

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 It's so exciting.

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 It is.

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 Very cool.

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 Yeah.

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 Yeah.

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 I'm very, very excited about it.

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 Tell me about it.

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 Ignite your soul.

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 Give us a give us an inside scoop.

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 Yeah.

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 Yeah, it is.

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 And I do have one here.

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 I could show you because the pre ones came in.

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 Ignite your soul is the main idea.

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 And the subtitle is significant as well.

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 The subtitle is When Exhaustion, Isolation, and Burnout Light a Path to Flourishing.

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 And what's really kind of sweet about this whole book is that it emerges out of two parts of my own personal story.

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 And they get kind of woven together and then introduce a path for people who might similarly have been in seasons of exhaustion, isolation, and burnout.

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 And the two parts of my story is one was the burnout that you know I had experienced so many years ago that was the whole genesis of my discovery of soul care very unexpectedly and very transformationally.

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 So there's my sort of journey in the past, but it gets woven together, Jeff, with the story of those fires that ripped through Boulder County about two and a half years ago.

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 And the land we have, our property, you've been out there that was so badly damaged and the various lessons that emerged for us and for guests at the ranch as a result of those fires and how beauty has really been coming from ashes.

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 So it's, uh, we're really excited about it.

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 I have not had a new book in over 11 years, so this is really special to me and it's really been fun to see, uh, the synthesis of so many important ideas that I've been working with for so long, but brought into, um, just a really current contemporary issue.

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 And I'm sure you see the same thing everywhere I go, the organizations we serve, the topic of burnout is just everywhere.

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 And, you know, I'm not a clinical psychologist.

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 Uh, you always wanted to make me one, I think, but I'm just not, I'm just an ordinary woman, but, um, but these, uh, and as important as that is, this stuff is accessible and available and people in.

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 No matter what their circumstances are, no matter how hard it is, can take steps toward flourishing, um, right, right where they are.

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 So we're really excited to get this message out.

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 Yeah.

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 So ignite your soul.

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 It comes out on, uh, on a week from yesterday.

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 So Monday, the Monday, the 10th.

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 Oh, is Monday.

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 Or is, is what, what is, I don't even know what today is.

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 Today's Tuesday.

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 No.

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 Uh, so, uh, it comes out Tuesday, the 10th, Wednesday, 11th.

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 What day did you say?

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 Yeah.

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 Tuesday, the 10th.

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 Tuesday, the 10th.

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 Okay.

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 So this is going to street, uh, this, I'm sorry.

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 The reason I'm saying that is, uh, it's like this interview is going to street go, go on demand on Monday, the 9th.

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 So like, if you're listening to the podcast, either way, tomorrow to whatever it comes out, um, live or on the band.

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 It's so asynchronous.

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 It's just crazy.

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 But, uh, where, where did they get?

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 I mean, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, your website, where do we go?

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 Um, all, all three of those, they can go to soulcare.com and you'll see, you know, easy access to it there.

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 Uh, if you do purchase it before the 10th, um, please go ahead and fill out the form on our website.

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 Cause the publisher is giving away the free, um, audio book to anybody who fills out that form.

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 So I got to read it.

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 Have you ever done that with one of your books?

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 I did not.

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 I was about to ask, is it your voice?

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 It is.

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 I got to read it.

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 It was really fun.

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 Uh, very moving actually.

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 And it was, I loved it.

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 Yeah.

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 As, as you were reading it, were you, cause like, I, you know, I, with the books that I wrote,

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 like I would read it like, uh, literally on an airplane, just kind of reading through.

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 And, and, you know, I, I, I found myself, I had to like, say, I am not editing this book

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 anymore because it's just like, were you second guessing like your sentences or, or wanting

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 to make changes as you were reading it out loud?

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 I feel like that would drive me nuts.

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 That would drive me nuts.

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 And ordinarily that does happen.

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 But I think credit to the editing process that we went through, like, cause there was a lot

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 of like, cause that's how I edit is when I read something, I kind of hear it in my head

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 and then that doesn't match what's written in front of me.

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 And then I have to make it match what I hear in my head.

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 I, that never happened, Jeff.

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 I, I, I loved it.

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 I felt like, oh, I can't wait to ship this out into the world.

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 This is timely.

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 This is, I, yeah, I felt really encouraged by it actually.

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 Yeah.

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 It was fun.

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 Very cool.

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 Well, ignite your soul.

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 We'll, we'll, um, put a, put a link in the show notes and, uh, and you can get more

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 information, um, on Amazon, Mindy Caliguire, uh, and, and some of her other books.

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 It's been a season.

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 Uh, there was what, two or three, I think that you had written previously, right?

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 Yeah.

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 There were four little ones that I wrote within a varsity press.

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 So that was, um, discovering soul care.

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 And then a couple of core spiritual practices.

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 So it was discovering soul care, spiritual friendship, soul searching, and simplicity.

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 So those were four.

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 And then I did one with Zondervan, uh, for church leaders called STIR, and it was an acronym

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 for spiritual transformation in relationships.

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 So I don't think I knew about that one.

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 Yeah, it was a, it was the one strategic book that I wrote.

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 Like if you want Christ to be formed in people in your context, which heads up, we, we assume

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 that's what everybody wants in the church, but it's usually not explicitly stated quite

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 like that.

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 So how do you, um, see your pathway?

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 Everybody's figuring out discipleship pathways and stuff like that.

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 And those are good, but people sit in front of whiteboards and talk for days and days and

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 fight about things.

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 But like that, right.

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 Am I right?

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 Megan's nodding.

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 Oh yeah.

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 Oh yeah.

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 So a discipleship pathway is really important because people need clarity.

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 Like, where am I and what's my next step?

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 Those are like some really important things to be able to shepherd people well.

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 And what I find is people, again, this is my context.

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 I'm not saying it's true everywhere.

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 I'm sure there are hope there are many exceptions, but people over index on what content people

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 need to understand what being a disciple is.

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 And that's first of all, not how we learn.

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 And second of all, not what we're supposed to do.

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 Jesus didn't say, go and make disciples, teach them everything I told you.

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 No, teach them to obey everything I commanded you, which is an entirely different thing than

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 just teach them what I told you.

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 And so there is a, a, a pathway.

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 I still believe that is informed by the data we've seen with reveal the spiritual formation

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 movement and, and a whole lifelong journey that doesn't sort of ever arrive.

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 So those were three big ideas that I was trying to pull together in this prior book.

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 Anyway, I shouldn't be talking about the prior book, but that's, that's the one I did.

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 Then it's good.

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 It's a, it's a good book for those who are like leading systems, leading small group systems

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 who really care about strategy.

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 That might be a good book, but not your soul people.

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 Now that's where we're focused.

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 Obedience-based discipleship over, over instructional based.

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 I mean, that, that's a whole other conversation.

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 We've, we've had that several times here on the podcast as well, but oh, totally.

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 Oh, that's a, that's a conversation for, for a different day, but Hey, you're right.

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 Let's let's, so let's get into the, the, the podcast, by the way, we've got a handful of

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 people that are, that are watching us on Twitch right now.

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 And so, uh, you know, I can see Melanie on there as well.

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 And some others are hanging out, but, uh, and so questions, if you're watching chat, uh,

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 if you're watching on Twitch live, uh, feel free to throw them in chat and, and engage

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 with us along the way.

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 But, uh, here with the season, uh, like I said, we're digging into digital mental health

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 and Megan Carter, uh, has been the brain child.

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 I did it again.

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 I don't even know what that means.

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 She's been a brain child every time she's been the brains of this.

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 And, you know, I, I'm black, basically the lack of brains, uh, which makes me the child,

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 uh, in this, in this conversation.

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 Uh, but, uh, Megan has, has really done a great job of figuring out topics and questions

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 and diving into this, which really just makes me the, the pretty face, uh, in, in this equation,

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 which is, is fine with me.

00:11:18.980 --> 00:11:24.220
 And so, um, Megan, what are we talking about in this episode here this week?

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 Yeah.

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 So today we're going to talk about finding rest in an exhausting world, which we all live

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 there.

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 We all know that we, we know we go at like a hundred miles an hour and it doesn't feel like

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 you can stop to find rest.

00:11:37.340 --> 00:11:39.980
 Um, so that's why I think it's so important that we're talking about this today.

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 Um, so I'm really excited to kind of dive in and, and maybe define what rest really is,

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 talk through that.

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 Um, and then what different ways, maybe some practical tips along the way we can get to

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 there to find some rest.

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 And I think it's really cool because people will find it in a different way.

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 So we can talk about that too.

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 So I'm really excited to kind of dive into that and jump in.

00:12:00.740 --> 00:12:01.280
 She's ready.

00:12:01.660 --> 00:12:02.040
 I'm ready.

00:12:02.300 --> 00:12:02.620
 All right.

00:12:03.260 --> 00:12:06.220
 Um, Mindy, uh, how do you define rest?

00:12:06.620 --> 00:12:08.100
 How do I define it?

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 I define rest, um, as sort of it's opposite.

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 It's not pushing forward something.

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 It's not driving.

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 It's not achieving.

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 It's, it's not those things.

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 And when I think of rest, it's you, you truly have taken your foot off the gas pedal.

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 You are able to enjoy, able to receive.

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 Now for many of us, ideally we can still enjoy.

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 We can be present even in the midst of our doing.

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 So I don't want to juxtapose those things with work versus rest.

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 I think it's possible to find ways of work that are not crushing.

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 Um, but when I think about rest, it's, it's the, you take your foot off the gas.

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 I'm doing things that are restorative things that are, um, full of delight and some fun,

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 uh, that rest is a, it is also essential.

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 I think of rest as something that is like physically your body.

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 Like when your body is sleeping is part of rest and you, we are way sleep deprived as a general

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 culture.

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 And it's sometimes even lauded in Christian leadership.

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 And it's like, we should not be giving bonus points for sleep deprivation.

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 This is not the way God made us to function best.

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 Now, I think there are ways of resting that are wake, wakeful resting, but let's make sure

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 we include sleep as a piece of that.

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 Cause your body was designed to rest.

00:13:45.180 --> 00:13:46.240
 What are you going to show us, Jeff?

00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:56.960
 So I, I had an executive pastor, give me this book, sleeping with your smartphone and advised

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 me to adapt its styles in its practice in, in my ministry.

00:14:03.640 --> 00:14:10.540
 So, and this, this was 2015, maybe December 2015.

00:14:11.100 --> 00:14:17.220
 So what you're saying is that sleeping with my smartphone is probably not a good idea.

00:14:17.820 --> 00:14:20.080
 I wouldn't recommend it.

00:14:20.380 --> 00:14:20.600
 Okay.

00:14:20.880 --> 00:14:26.220
 I, I just, I, I literally, I keep that book around just as a, just as a reminder.

00:14:26.560 --> 00:14:27.340
 Sorry, sorry, go ahead.

00:14:27.540 --> 00:14:33.260
 I was in South Florida with something connected to the, the church United guys that we've talked

00:14:33.260 --> 00:14:39.460
 about before, or we were talking about earlier, and they had a neuropsychologist come in and

00:14:39.460 --> 00:14:40.720
 do an evening gathering.

00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:45.420
 I don't know if you were in the room, but there were maybe 15 people in a beautiful home

00:14:45.420 --> 00:14:52.060
 somewhere in South Florida, which there's a lot of, and, uh, and this gentleman is a strong

00:14:52.060 --> 00:14:54.440
 believer, a strong man of great faith.

00:14:54.680 --> 00:15:01.320
 And he sees the whole world of the brain and sleep and how your brain functions, uh, through

00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:03.580
 the lens of God as creator.

00:15:03.680 --> 00:15:08.620
 And the one who has put these systems into place and the things I heard that man say that

00:15:08.620 --> 00:15:16.080
 night, I mean, completely started to change my behaviors with bedtime routines, with notifications,

00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:23.020
 with blue light, with all these different things that I was relatively unaware of.

00:15:23.020 --> 00:15:28.420
 And I think most of us are, I ended up hiring him and they did all the wiring your brain thing

00:15:28.420 --> 00:15:29.940
 and like, Oh, it was great.

00:15:29.940 --> 00:15:38.020
 Um, and it proved what I suspected was that I had massive levels of fatigue that could be

00:15:38.020 --> 00:15:41.740
 seen in the readouts and I'm functioning.

00:15:41.740 --> 00:15:44.160
 I was working at the executive team at glue.

00:15:44.160 --> 00:15:47.140
 I'm running whatever soul care was at that time.

00:15:47.140 --> 00:15:50.180
 Like I had a full life of kids and marriage and all that stuff.

00:15:50.400 --> 00:15:54.860
 And, uh, I needed some support.

00:15:54.860 --> 00:16:00.320
 And one of the first sort of low hanging fruit things was you got to wrap your head around

00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:00.700
 sleep.

00:16:01.100 --> 00:16:04.620
 And I, there's a whole book sleep smarter, I think is the book I bought.

00:16:04.700 --> 00:16:04.880
 Yeah.

00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:10.000
 It might be around here, but since those fires, I have no idea where my library is on any given

00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:17.940
 day, so, um, the fires in Boulder, but, um, yeah, it's a, it's a good, so rest back to rest.

00:16:17.940 --> 00:16:19.880
 We are wired to need rest.

00:16:20.200 --> 00:16:27.200
 And some people talk about the, the brain like functions in the third shift, like the, the

00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:32.160
 factory, uh, or your whole body actually functions this way that like the daytime hours, you got

00:16:32.160 --> 00:16:34.920
 the first shift, you got the second shift, and those are all about productivity.

00:16:34.920 --> 00:16:41.960
 But the third shift is the cleanup crew and it's literally while you're sleeping that your

00:16:41.960 --> 00:16:45.520
 body is regenerating, is restoring, is healing.

00:16:45.980 --> 00:16:48.780
 And yeah, it's a good thing.

00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:50.920
 So I would define rest in all those ways.

00:16:51.400 --> 00:16:51.740
 That's awesome.

00:16:51.860 --> 00:16:52.340
 I love that.

00:16:52.400 --> 00:16:56.640
 And I think that is something that a lot of people don't talk about is like, we all, you

00:16:56.640 --> 00:17:00.160
 hear all the time, especially like fitness stuff or whatever is like your morning routine

00:17:00.160 --> 00:17:02.960
 is so important and they hit so heavily on that.

00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:08.420
 And it's like, you're like going to bed, like bedtime routine is just as important to find

00:17:08.420 --> 00:17:11.900
 the balance between both those that you can fully get rest.

00:17:12.020 --> 00:17:15.960
 And yeah, sleeping is amazing, but there's other ways to find rest too.

00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:17.260
 And I think we'll dive into that.

00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:22.120
 Um, I find it really interesting and I know that I do this a lot and I have to catch myself

00:17:22.120 --> 00:17:26.020
 is like fake resting, um, is what I like to call it.

00:17:26.200 --> 00:17:28.180
 Cause I think that I'm rest.

00:17:28.260 --> 00:17:32.980
 I'm like, I'm going to take like, say, you know, yesterday it was labor day for us and

00:17:32.980 --> 00:17:34.340
 we take the day off.

00:17:34.340 --> 00:17:36.500
 But like, that wasn't restful.

00:17:36.540 --> 00:17:38.560
 Cause like I had my daughter's birthday.

00:17:38.660 --> 00:17:40.160
 We ran around, we did all these things.

00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:45.060
 Or even if you're at home, you're like, if you're like me, a perfectionist where I'm like,

00:17:45.120 --> 00:17:49.240
 see something, I'm like, Oh, those blankets need to be folded or, Oh, this needs to be done

00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:50.840
 or the dishwasher or the laundry.

00:17:51.100 --> 00:17:54.800
 And so by the time I get to the end of the day, like I've done all these things, I'm

00:17:54.800 --> 00:17:57.740
 like, man, why am I so tired today was supposed to be restful.

00:17:58.220 --> 00:18:05.300
 So I really would love to like hear your just insight into how do you know when you're truly

00:18:05.300 --> 00:18:10.560
 resting or when it's kind of this, just, you think you're resting that fake resting type.

00:18:11.660 --> 00:18:11.900
 Yeah.

00:18:12.540 --> 00:18:17.120
 I think you just know in your spirit, you know, you're cheating it, you know, you're

00:18:17.120 --> 00:18:20.920
 cheating yourself, you know, you keep making up excuses.

00:18:22.320 --> 00:18:29.720
 Um, I, I, yeah, I think that's you, you, you, and you know, over time, because you start

00:18:29.720 --> 00:18:31.180
 to be really resentful.

00:18:31.320 --> 00:18:32.460
 I'll speak for myself.

00:18:32.460 --> 00:18:41.500
 I get super resentful if I don't ever take time to really rest because then I, I've taken

00:18:41.500 --> 00:18:46.020
 on the, like, take just one of the things you just mentioned, the perfectionism.

00:18:46.360 --> 00:18:46.880
 Uh, yeah.

00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:53.580
 I mean, it's just like you, you, you cannot live under that and there is, it is never done.

00:18:53.620 --> 00:18:55.840
 It is never, there's always another project.

00:18:56.240 --> 00:19:04.660
 And so I think in order to actually experience rest, um, and I like juxtaposing it with fake

00:19:04.660 --> 00:19:04.920
 rest.

00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:08.080
 I think that's a really good, um, a good call out.

00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:14.780
 Um, you do have to come to the point where you're okay with things not being okay.

00:19:16.140 --> 00:19:24.380
 And for a higher goal, for a higher purpose, it's like the law of diminishing returns.

00:19:24.380 --> 00:19:27.460
 Like you keep doing fake rest, fake rest, fake rest, fake rest.

00:19:27.660 --> 00:19:33.160
 And eventually your actual things that you are responsible for and things that do really

00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:35.280
 matter, um, also start to suffer.

00:19:35.600 --> 00:19:38.940
 Um, there's this great, I'm sure you're both familiar with this and probably everybody listening

00:19:38.940 --> 00:19:44.040
 is, but there's this great line of thinking that CS Lewis introduced in one of his essays

00:19:44.040 --> 00:19:46.220
 called God on the dock, I think is the name of it.

00:19:46.220 --> 00:19:51.620
 Um, and in it, he talks about the difference between he calls first order things and second

00:19:51.620 --> 00:19:52.340
 order things.

00:19:53.560 --> 00:19:57.880
 And first order things, uh, are the things that are of most importance.

00:19:58.260 --> 00:20:05.400
 And, you know, we might say like rest or soul care, or, you know, a holistic vision of your

00:20:05.400 --> 00:20:05.760
 life.

00:20:06.440 --> 00:20:13.140
 And second order things are, um, still important, but they might be your job or the dishes and

00:20:13.140 --> 00:20:15.800
 the laundry and the blankets folded and all that other stuff.

00:20:17.100 --> 00:20:22.700
 And Lewis argues in it and he gives some really beautiful examples, which I'm blanking on all

00:20:22.700 --> 00:20:29.840
 of them at the moment, but some really beautiful examples of how, if you confuse which are first

00:20:29.840 --> 00:20:35.700
 order things and which are second order things and start treating second order things as though

00:20:35.700 --> 00:20:42.080
 they are first order things, um, the, the real loss, the real, and the insight that he brought

00:20:42.080 --> 00:20:50.100
 is that if you put second order things first, you, um, well, let's put it the other way.

00:20:50.100 --> 00:20:55.680
 If you put first order things first, then you get both first and second things.

00:20:56.540 --> 00:21:03.080
 But if you put second things first, you don't just lose first things.

00:21:04.080 --> 00:21:08.280
 If you put second things first, you lose both first and second things.

00:21:08.780 --> 00:21:09.820
 Does that make sense?

00:21:10.320 --> 00:21:14.420
 I don't know if I'm repeating it exactly rightly, but here's the, here's the basic idea.

00:21:14.840 --> 00:21:17.700
 You put rest as a priority.

00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:27.040
 You get rest and folded blankets at the right time and a birthday party at the right time.

00:21:27.040 --> 00:21:35.380
 And others, other things, if you put blankets, birthday party, the 10 next emails that need

00:21:35.380 --> 00:21:45.620
 to get written back, you know, um, if you put those things first and ignore this over time,

00:21:45.620 --> 00:21:49.500
 you could, you, you will lose both first and second thing.

00:21:49.500 --> 00:21:51.700
 You'll lose the capacity to answer 10 emails.

00:21:51.700 --> 00:21:54.460
 Well, and no blankets get folded.

00:21:55.840 --> 00:21:57.040
 Not to be light about it.

00:21:57.100 --> 00:21:59.740
 I mean, these are much more serious issues that we're actually talking about.

00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.760
 I think I could just sit here and listen to you and you just talk the whole time.

00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:05.540
 I mean, that's so true.

00:22:08.080 --> 00:22:10.240
 It'll be way more fun if we keep talking together.

00:22:10.340 --> 00:22:13.880
 I know now I'm like, I really need to get your book so I can listen to it.

00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:14.780
 I love audio books.

00:22:14.860 --> 00:22:17.180
 So just to hear you definitely have to do that.

00:22:19.040 --> 00:22:24.160
 Well, um, Mindy, I got to tell you, um, you know, with, with some of the health issues

00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:29.860
 and the things over, over the past year, um, my, uh, my, my, and we talked about it here

00:22:29.860 --> 00:22:33.760
 on the podcast a lot as well, but, but my, my attitude and my philosophy is, is changed

00:22:33.760 --> 00:22:34.920
 in, in, in a big way.

00:22:35.220 --> 00:22:41.200
 Like I used to be the guy that would be up till one, two, three o'clock in the morning,

00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:48.480
 um, without going to bed, um, not able to sleep, constantly working, very workaholic approach

00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:49.480
 in, in what I was doing.

00:22:50.200 --> 00:22:55.440
 And, um, you know, at this point I'm still actually am awake at three o'clock in the morning,

00:22:55.440 --> 00:23:02.920
 but, but what happens is I go to bed like at eight or nine at night and I'll sleep from

00:23:02.920 --> 00:23:06.100
 like eight to one, eight to two.

00:23:06.180 --> 00:23:09.700
 Like last night I went to bed at nine o'clock and I woke up at, at two in the morning and

00:23:09.700 --> 00:23:14.060
 I was up from, for some reason I'm up at two to five watching last night, I was actually

00:23:14.060 --> 00:23:15.340
 watching MASH reruns.

00:23:15.480 --> 00:23:21.220
 If you much must know on TV on, um, on Disney plus cause Disney plus now has, has Hulu.

00:23:21.500 --> 00:23:24.160
 And so that was what I did from the hours of two to five.

00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:25.420
 That Hawkeye is just hilarious.

00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:30.100
 And then I would, and then I went back to sleep about five to seven and then got up and did

00:23:30.100 --> 00:23:33.240
 my day.

00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:36.140
 Um, and so like I'm finding, and I don't know if that's rest or if that's fake rest,

00:23:36.140 --> 00:23:37.740
 willing to have that conversation.

00:23:39.360 --> 00:23:43.580
 And then, and then my, but my wife is, is like, you know, it's funny.

00:23:43.700 --> 00:23:45.280
 Uh, it was, I think it was Friday night.

00:23:45.280 --> 00:23:46.800
 Maybe it was Saturday night.

00:23:46.940 --> 00:23:51.940
 One, one night this weekend, I literally was like, it was seven 50 and I was like, all

00:23:51.940 --> 00:23:53.360
 right, I think, I think I got to go to bed.

00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:56.640
 And it's a lot of it's my, the medicine just knocks me out, you know?

00:23:56.660 --> 00:24:00.480
 And it's like, well, if I'm tired, I got to sleep because if I don't sleep then I'm not

00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:01.160
 going to sleep later.

00:24:01.160 --> 00:24:04.320
 And so it's like, if I'm sleeping, let me take advantage of it and knock out.

00:24:05.320 --> 00:24:08.940
 And, uh, and, and she looks at me and she's like, it's not even eight o'clock.

00:24:08.980 --> 00:24:12.140
 And I was like, I'm sorry, I'm just, I got, I got to sleep.

00:24:12.660 --> 00:24:14.820
 And, uh, and there was, it was really interesting.

00:24:14.820 --> 00:24:19.320
 It's like the idea of fake rest and whether that's helpful or not, like I'm, I'm getting

00:24:19.320 --> 00:24:20.080
 the hours.

00:24:20.660 --> 00:24:23.980
 Uh, it doesn't align in my, my kids are teenagers at this point.

00:24:23.980 --> 00:24:25.560
 Like they're staying up to 11 or 12.

00:24:25.560 --> 00:24:29.060
 Like they're, they're starting to adapt my life, my old lifestyle.

00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:33.160
 My wife is starting to adapt my old lifestyle.

00:24:33.340 --> 00:24:38.200
 Like it used to be, I was the workaholic and everybody was like, what are you doing staying

00:24:38.200 --> 00:24:38.700
 up so late?

00:24:38.740 --> 00:24:42.280
 Now everybody else is staying up late doing the workaholic lifestyle.

00:24:42.280 --> 00:24:43.760
 And I'm the one like, all right, I'm going to bed.

00:24:43.820 --> 00:24:44.340
 See y'all later.

00:24:44.780 --> 00:24:45.700
 And, and knocking out.

00:24:47.020 --> 00:24:47.600
 I don't know.

00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:49.960
 Like what, what, what, what, what does this mean?

00:24:50.020 --> 00:24:51.100
 Like, what, what do you recommend?

00:24:51.320 --> 00:24:53.980
 What, what are your thoughts kind of hearing me in this, uh, this story?

00:24:53.980 --> 00:25:00.260
 Uh, I will, I will go on record as saying in my non-clinical opinion,

00:25:01.220 --> 00:25:04.700
 MASH reruns is not rest in the middle of the night.

00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:06.840
 Okay.

00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:13.200
 And, but what I think is, uh, quoting from this book that I read, um, there are apparently

00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:22.540
 four golden hours in the night that if your brain gets these four hours, uh, it actually

00:25:22.540 --> 00:25:25.120
 does much of the necessary work.

00:25:25.120 --> 00:25:30.380
 And then anything you get beyond those four bonus hours, it's like, that does the, get

00:25:30.380 --> 00:25:36.940
 you back up to level and the next four of an optimal eight is what gets you in a performance

00:25:36.940 --> 00:25:37.660
 zone.

00:25:37.660 --> 00:25:37.980
 Okay.

00:25:37.980 --> 00:25:44.960
 So the golden hours, according to this author, and he's very well researched is, um, 10 till

00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:45.220
 two.

00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:49.540
 So 10 PM till 2 AM is a really vital.

00:25:49.540 --> 00:25:54.820
 And I had never heard that until I read his book that those hours are of particular importance.

00:25:54.820 --> 00:26:00.120
 So when you report that you go to bed at eight, you get up at two, you are actually hitting

00:26:00.120 --> 00:26:02.340
 those significant hours.

00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:03.280
 Yay.

00:26:03.540 --> 00:26:08.220
 I tell you what, one of the things that I've gotten mad about, which who doesn't love a

00:26:08.220 --> 00:26:15.580
 good streaming binge, what your, what is going on in your brain from all that stimulation is

00:26:15.580 --> 00:26:18.380
 actually very difficult for your body to recover from.

00:26:19.580 --> 00:26:26.540
 And it is, uh, there's blue light stimulation that is telling your brain, wake up, wake up,

00:26:26.540 --> 00:26:27.460
 wake up, wake up, wake up.

00:26:27.500 --> 00:26:28.500
 It's daytime, daytime, daytime.

00:26:28.500 --> 00:26:37.660
 And, uh, even putting a screen or a, a, a, a filter, a color filter over it when you're

00:26:37.660 --> 00:26:42.500
 watching during certain hours is said to help improve what it does to your brain.

00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:46.060
 The others were just so addicted to our dopamine.

00:26:46.060 --> 00:26:48.780
 And it's like, I want more, I want more, I want more.

00:26:48.920 --> 00:26:50.160
 And who wouldn't be?

00:26:50.220 --> 00:26:51.800
 It's like, of course we are.

00:26:51.860 --> 00:26:56.600
 It's, you know, anyway, those, those things are wired to keep you watching.

00:26:57.160 --> 00:26:59.300
 And at some point you get a little feisty.

00:26:59.300 --> 00:27:06.060
 It's like, wait, I did not surrender my intelligence and my next week of life to you, Netflix or Hulu

00:27:06.060 --> 00:27:11.160
 or whomever you are now again, Jeff, I love, I love, trust me.

00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:12.080
 I love this stuff.

00:27:12.620 --> 00:27:18.520
 Um, and if we want to do a little sidebar on favorite, favorite shows today, dive into,

00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:22.800
 I'm happy to, but guard your brain.

00:27:23.180 --> 00:27:29.420
 Like I, I, I, I worked with, um, Ben Kacharis up at mountain Christian church a couple of years

00:27:29.420 --> 00:27:31.300
 ago and did some weekend services with him.

00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:34.220
 He was doing a whole series on different practices.

00:27:34.220 --> 00:27:40.240
 And I don't know if this one came in on rest or not, but he had a brilliant pastor, brilliant

00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:43.120
 construct for the whole message series.

00:27:44.120 --> 00:27:46.240
 And we did a little riff on the brain.

00:27:46.240 --> 00:27:48.640
 And I was like, here, here's the deal.

00:27:48.780 --> 00:27:55.720
 Basically every single one of us have as our brain, like a freaking Lamborghini.

00:27:55.720 --> 00:28:04.860
 Like you have got like the most powerful thing in, in biology sits in your skull.

00:28:05.040 --> 00:28:05.400
 Okay.

00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:08.320
 It is, it is brilliant.

00:28:08.320 --> 00:28:11.680
 It is, has capacities that you have not even dreamed of.

00:28:12.340 --> 00:28:18.400
 And I think part of why I hired that neuropsychologist that year is because that January 1st, as I

00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:22.280
 was going into new year's resolutions and stuff like that, I was coming to, you know, we've

00:28:22.280 --> 00:28:22.820
 heard the data.

00:28:22.900 --> 00:28:25.300
 Oh, you only use like 85% of your brain or whatever.

00:28:25.800 --> 00:28:30.420
 And I'm like, that's a travesty.

00:28:31.040 --> 00:28:37.920
 Like, I, I want to know what, like, what would, what if I could harness, I don't know, 30% of

00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:40.660
 my brain instead of 50, 15%.

00:28:40.660 --> 00:28:45.560
 Like I actually, it's just because the other way around, I don't know what I said, but the

00:28:45.560 --> 00:28:51.200
 data is that like, you're only using like 15% of your actual capacity.

00:28:51.900 --> 00:28:53.880
 And it's like, well, could I double that?

00:28:54.100 --> 00:28:57.020
 It's still not even half, but could I at least double it?

00:28:57.400 --> 00:29:01.460
 Like, how could I better steward?

00:29:01.700 --> 00:29:07.560
 And then there, there you have this idea that like how you've got this really powerful engine

00:29:07.560 --> 00:29:10.440
 inside, but you're driving it like a beat up VW.

00:29:10.660 --> 00:29:17.300
 Like what, how do you, how do, how do we better steward the biology that is the basis of our,

00:29:17.840 --> 00:29:18.880
 what we bring to the world.

00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:24.120
 And we're so, I love all these chat messages in here, by the way, about first order and

00:29:24.120 --> 00:29:25.840
 second order and rest is reward.

00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:28.820
 Maybe I am highly distractible here, but I I'm loving them.

00:29:29.240 --> 00:29:38.080
 And it's like, don't, don't we want to care more about actually living into what we could,

00:29:38.340 --> 00:29:39.880
 what we could be and what we could become?

00:29:39.880 --> 00:29:43.000
 Like I get very curious about what that could be like.

00:29:44.540 --> 00:29:44.940
 Yeah.

00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:50.680
 I mean, I definitely feel like I, and I speak for me, but I'll also speak for a lot of the

00:29:50.680 --> 00:29:58.280
 people that are watching this podcast are, are type A's, uh, maybe more apostolic on the

00:29:58.280 --> 00:30:06.780
 apest, uh, charts, uh, visionary leaders, um, you know, and, and truthfully, it's talk about the

00:30:06.780 --> 00:30:07.460
 American church.

00:30:07.460 --> 00:30:14.620
 We're kind of used to using and abusing, um, our bodies for the cause of Christ, uh, using and

00:30:14.620 --> 00:30:19.340
 abusing resources, whether it's ourselves, whether it's others, my story.

00:30:20.020 --> 00:30:27.640
 And so as, as, as a result, um, you know, I, I, I, I, there's many times in my life,

00:30:27.720 --> 00:30:29.160
 oh, this is just for a season.

00:30:29.640 --> 00:30:31.200
 Oh, we'll just do this for a season.

00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:33.820
 And that season lasts two, three, four, five, six years.

00:30:33.820 --> 00:30:38.380
 And, and all of a sudden it's not just a season it's, it's, it's life.

00:30:38.700 --> 00:30:42.740
 And, and, and at that point, you know, how do I even get out of that?

00:30:43.020 --> 00:30:47.120
 Um, and a lot of the, like a fake season, it's not just fake rest.

00:30:47.120 --> 00:30:52.900
 It's like a fake season and we keep giving ourselves this illusion that it ever ends.

00:30:53.600 --> 00:30:56.280
 And it like, what is the purpose of that illusion?

00:30:56.280 --> 00:30:59.960
 It's to have us to not question whether or not this is sustainable.

00:31:00.060 --> 00:31:01.120
 And if it's right.

00:31:01.700 --> 00:31:05.540
 And if like, oh, if it's just a season, well, then I don't have to like really give it the

00:31:05.540 --> 00:31:07.460
 full analysis that it warrants.

00:31:08.020 --> 00:31:12.900
 But if that season becomes the next season becomes the next season, then you're not talking

00:31:12.900 --> 00:31:13.840
 about seasons anymore.

00:31:13.840 --> 00:31:15.620
 You're talking about what's real and permanent.

00:31:17.120 --> 00:31:22.920
 And if I, I mean, you know, that's a lot of the work I do is with type A leaders and I,

00:31:23.160 --> 00:31:24.880
 and visionaries and apostolic people.

00:31:25.020 --> 00:31:25.660
 I love that.

00:31:25.780 --> 00:31:30.340
 I, I, I, all of that is precious to God and vital to our world.

00:31:30.820 --> 00:31:32.380
 And I want all of it.

00:31:32.540 --> 00:31:33.580
 I want all of it.

00:31:33.720 --> 00:31:39.660
 I talk about the people who are like the candle lighters by nature, you know, like the more

00:31:39.660 --> 00:31:41.320
 contemplative, slow.

00:31:41.320 --> 00:31:46.580
 And a lot of people, they kind of assume that that's me because of what I care about.

00:31:47.420 --> 00:31:53.820
 And I aspire to that more and more, but the candle lighters are different DNA type people

00:31:53.820 --> 00:31:54.960
 than the jet fuel drinkers.

00:31:55.120 --> 00:31:59.500
 And you all, this tribe, you, you guys are the jet fuel drinkers.

00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:05.520
 And what happens is when we don't have a way of integrating these conversations, and instead

00:32:05.520 --> 00:32:10.580
 we polarize these two ways of being, it puts everything at risk.

00:32:10.580 --> 00:32:18.820
 That's why I'm so passionate about leaders because I, I want, we all should want what the kingdom

00:32:18.820 --> 00:32:21.960
 has to receive from that kind of leadership.

00:32:23.400 --> 00:32:28.700
 And at the same time, I think we have reached our, I God willing, may it be true.

00:32:28.820 --> 00:32:34.240
 We have reached our peak tolerance for toxic leadership, for unhealthy leadership cultures,

00:32:34.540 --> 00:32:35.520
 for unhealthy patterns.

00:32:35.660 --> 00:32:39.060
 Now we are in a sort of a collective, well, then I don't know how to do it any other way,

00:32:39.700 --> 00:32:43.840
 but, but that opens the door to willingness to try new things.

00:32:44.140 --> 00:32:46.360
 And that's where we have got to be.

00:32:46.360 --> 00:32:53.480
 There's no like one size fits all answer to this, but, uh, the first step is a decision.

00:32:53.640 --> 00:32:55.580
 Like I'm not going to do the crazy anymore.

00:32:55.580 --> 00:33:02.800
 And sometimes that decision can be made rather, um, I don't know, logically.

00:33:03.420 --> 00:33:07.040
 And sometimes that decision comes forced upon us by circumstances.

00:33:07.420 --> 00:33:13.080
 There's a health, that was my situation, Jeff, you had a similar, like when all of a sudden

00:33:13.080 --> 00:33:20.540
 the health thing or whatever it is breaks those illusions, all of a sudden you have a willingness

00:33:20.540 --> 00:33:25.560
 to look at your life in a different way and see different options that were always there

00:33:25.560 --> 00:33:30.160
 in front of you, but you just were blind to them when we're in the middle of, you know,

00:33:30.460 --> 00:33:32.120
 give me another jet fuel, please.

00:33:32.520 --> 00:33:36.000
 You know, literally as I'm drinking, you know, a Venti coffee here.

00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:39.400
 Uh, yeah, so it's, it's all good.

00:33:39.700 --> 00:33:44.300
 And so, you know, Venti, you're, you're, uh, you're, uh, it's interesting.

00:33:44.420 --> 00:33:47.420
 I actually would love to know maybe, uh, what are you on the apest?

00:33:47.520 --> 00:33:51.240
 Are you, cause I've never taken the test, but go ahead.

00:33:51.340 --> 00:33:52.280
 What were you going to ask?

00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:58.520
 Because you're, you seem very, uh, like you're, you're, um, you're contemplative,

00:33:58.520 --> 00:34:05.720
 but you're also very driven, like, I mean, from your, from your Willow Creek era, the stuff

00:34:05.720 --> 00:34:11.980
 you do at glue, the, the, your new book that just came out, your re-imagining of soulcarry.com

00:34:11.980 --> 00:34:13.860
 within the past, you know, several years.

00:34:13.960 --> 00:34:18.360
 Like I know you, you're, you're, you're half shepherd.

00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:25.120
 Um, but you're, you're very apostolic and, and, and driven in some of the, very visionary

00:34:25.120 --> 00:34:27.080
 in, in some of the work that you've done.

00:34:27.080 --> 00:34:31.680
 Like you, you mentioned, uh, well, you just, you, you have a, a rich history.

00:34:32.060 --> 00:34:33.740
 And so like, I love that.

00:34:33.740 --> 00:34:34.960
 That's called being old, Jeff.

00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:40.420
 I mean, I don't want to out you right now.

00:34:41.480 --> 00:34:43.040
 That, that just got weird.

00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:45.000
 I'm just kidding.

00:34:45.120 --> 00:34:46.440
 You're, you're being kind.

00:34:46.580 --> 00:34:47.640
 You're bringing a very kind.

00:34:47.740 --> 00:34:54.180
 So anyway, you're saying that there's a bunch of history, but you're conflicted on like,

00:34:54.540 --> 00:34:56.500
 which, what is my true self?

00:34:56.740 --> 00:34:58.300
 Like, how do I really show up in the world?

00:34:59.060 --> 00:35:02.480
 Well, part of me is curious how you, how you create that balance.

00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:05.120
 Because that's a better question.

00:35:05.500 --> 00:35:05.620
 Yeah.

00:35:05.680 --> 00:35:08.440
 I would say that you're healthily driven.

00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:14.960
 Whereas opposed to me in the, in the, my twenties and thirties was unhealthily driven.

00:35:15.340 --> 00:35:20.280
 And, and, and a lot of the, the health issues and emotional issues I've had over the past

00:35:20.280 --> 00:35:27.060
 couple of years have been centered around unhealthily practices that, that were not treated and

00:35:27.060 --> 00:35:29.440
 were not recognized early on.

00:35:29.900 --> 00:35:34.880
 And so how, how do you, how do you create that as a, as a leader, how do you create that balance?

00:35:35.220 --> 00:35:37.360
 And I have another question, follow up, but let's do that one.

00:35:37.460 --> 00:35:37.620
 Great.

00:35:37.720 --> 00:35:37.880
 Yeah.

00:35:37.880 --> 00:35:38.520
 Let's start there.

00:35:38.580 --> 00:35:45.300
 I, and that is the, that story of my earliest burnout is like, you would have, you know,

00:35:45.380 --> 00:35:50.540
 I, yes, you would have still recognized me in my twenties, but it was, I was 29 years old

00:35:50.540 --> 00:36:02.120
 when I forced, like I hit a brick wall, uh, neurologically, like my optic nerve, my cerebellum,

00:36:02.120 --> 00:36:05.140
 like everything started falling apart.

00:36:05.500 --> 00:36:14.500
 And, uh, I was in a season of what I literally use the term forced rest and I could not function.

00:36:14.600 --> 00:36:15.440
 I couldn't read.

00:36:15.520 --> 00:36:16.120
 I couldn't write.

00:36:16.200 --> 00:36:17.400
 I couldn't walk a straight line.

00:36:17.460 --> 00:36:18.140
 I couldn't drive.

00:36:18.220 --> 00:36:19.860
 I couldn't eat unless I was blindfolded.

00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:29.720
 I was, I was, I hit a hard stop, very hard, very painful, very disorienting, very confusing, very like, God, I'm on your team.

00:36:29.820 --> 00:36:30.280
 What gives?

00:36:30.380 --> 00:36:31.160
 This isn't strategic.

00:36:31.160 --> 00:36:34.680
 Like all the midnight arguments that you have with God or that I do.

00:36:35.700 --> 00:36:39.840
 Um, and, uh, yeah, just try telling God that he's not strategic.

00:36:40.980 --> 00:36:47.840
 And that, uh, that is what woke me up to this other path, Jeff.

00:36:48.320 --> 00:36:58.000
 That, uh, that I, I often say, I, I hope I would have been willing to listen to someone like myself, that version of me many years ago.

00:36:59.100 --> 00:37:05.000
 Um, because I, I couldn't see another way.

00:37:05.060 --> 00:37:13.940
 I had no, and I think the Christian community lacks a rhetoric or a rationale for the integrated life that you were asking about.

00:37:13.940 --> 00:37:24.720
 How do I balance it and because we lack that integration or a vision for it, theologically, we have no reason to put rest up on the level of more productivity.

00:37:24.720 --> 00:37:35.340
 Like if more productivity means more people meet Jesus, more groups get led, more services happen, more studies get taught and written and whatever.

00:37:35.340 --> 00:37:42.480
 Whatever, then if we don't have a way to counterbalance those two, this will never rise to the top.

00:37:43.680 --> 00:37:51.640
 And you have to pull back to a much bigger understanding of the human soul before you can get to that rationale.

00:37:52.020 --> 00:38:10.580
 So for me, that, that became the driving force was I got to learn how to care for my soul as a first order priority and let all the other things that I feel so very responsible for come out of my being responsible for the one thing that God has actually made me responsible for, which is my life with him.

00:38:10.580 --> 00:38:15.380
 Somebody put in the notes, the idea of abiding, like that was kind of vague and fuzzy to me.

00:38:15.460 --> 00:38:16.780
 I don't know what abiding means.

00:38:16.780 --> 00:38:19.140
 Like, sounds great.

00:38:20.320 --> 00:38:21.400
 We got stuff to do.

00:38:22.020 --> 00:38:25.820
 I didn't, I was like, does, does just believing in Jesus, is that abiding?

00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:27.560
 Like what, what, what does that mean?

00:38:28.560 --> 00:38:29.880
 Learning a new way of life.

00:38:32.040 --> 00:38:34.000
 Stacy's the one who said the abiding, I think.

00:38:34.460 --> 00:38:40.920
 And, um, and so you would love Stacy's like Stacy, you would love all, everybody that's in chat right now.

00:38:40.980 --> 00:38:42.560
 These are the people I love.

00:38:42.680 --> 00:38:54.240
 I love those who are out on the edge, who see the future, who are compelled out of, out of goodness and love, but you got a little fire in your belly.

00:38:54.240 --> 00:38:55.960
 Like that's, that's good.

00:38:56.740 --> 00:39:07.880
 Um, and let's always be willing to bless that, but you got to learn how to like slow it down and light a few candles along the way too, if you're gonna stay the course.

00:39:08.240 --> 00:39:08.680
 Yeah.

00:39:08.960 --> 00:39:14.100
 And so on that vein, let's, let's, let's hit up ukulele for worships, actually asking a question here.

00:39:14.100 --> 00:39:15.040
 And that's really tiny.

00:39:15.140 --> 00:39:25.260
 You probably can't read that, but, um, how many people are stuck serving in a season where God has something better for them in the next season?

00:39:25.260 --> 00:39:30.500
 Like, what would you do, uh, for them, but they can't let go or they won't let go.

00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:38.660
 How, what, what do you tell the people that are stuck that are, are maybe feel trapped?

00:39:38.660 --> 00:39:45.840
 Like there's, there's seasons of my story where I kind of need my paycheck and this toxic environment's paying the bills.

00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:48.740
 Yeah, I know it's toxic, but money's hitting the account.

00:39:48.740 --> 00:39:49.760
 And I got two kids.

00:39:50.340 --> 00:39:55.640
 First of all, I see you, I hear that, I feel it and have felt it at different times.

00:39:56.200 --> 00:39:59.500
 Um, there's nothing that tries your faith.

00:39:59.660 --> 00:40:08.460
 Like, do I really have confidence in a God who sees me, is for me, is with me, is going to guide and provide, et cetera.

00:40:08.460 --> 00:40:13.020
 There's nothing that tries your faith than those, those kinds of times.

00:40:13.020 --> 00:40:23.320
 Because if you can point to like why everything's going to be fine and the answer is money and title and whatever, and you don't really need God for that equation to work out.

00:40:23.420 --> 00:40:25.820
 You're like, okay, here's how I know everything's going to be fine.

00:40:26.760 --> 00:40:36.180
 But to take a step of, of true faith, not foolishness, but true faith, um, that that's hard.

00:40:36.360 --> 00:40:37.060
 That is hard.

00:40:37.100 --> 00:40:41.960
 It goes against even a lot of Christian advice that you might get.

00:40:41.960 --> 00:40:49.080
 And, but everybody on this call is probably sort of seeing a future out there that you're willing to go for.

00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:52.620
 Um, I see the holy discontent.

00:40:52.680 --> 00:41:00.800
 Well, you can, we can circle back to that, but I, I actually, we were, I was just talking to this on a walk, uh, yesterday or the day before.

00:41:01.460 --> 00:41:19.680
 I have known of some leaders who at a point of transition, like what's the next wave of this organization, what's the next, this, that, whatever, were incapable in my view of putting, does it need to die on the table as one of the options?

00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:26.940
 And I think there's, can be ego involvement in that kind of stuff.

00:41:27.300 --> 00:41:31.820
 There's fear of what else, if I don't do this, then what does it mean?

00:41:32.180 --> 00:41:35.200
 There's the sunk costs of I've already done so much.

00:41:35.320 --> 00:41:36.220
 I can't walk away.

00:41:36.940 --> 00:41:50.620
 When we, when we don't have the ability to face a massive shift or an end to a season, um, if you just can't even entertain that, that should be a sign.

00:41:50.620 --> 00:41:58.920
 Like, that's like, you got to pay attention to that because we should always be able to entertain every option without fear or anxiety.

00:41:59.160 --> 00:42:06.440
 We should always be able to put any number of options on the table and discern and bring people into that process with us.

00:42:06.640 --> 00:42:18.060
 And when you find, or when someone finds that they can't even put that option on the table, it malfunctions the discernment process from the get-go because you've taken away one of the things that ought to be there.

00:42:18.060 --> 00:42:26.980
 And, you know, it's like, nobody likes having to close down a ministry that has overdone.

00:42:27.060 --> 00:42:29.400
 It's, you know, what, when do we do that?

00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:30.400
 Hey, it did its thing.

00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:39.900
 We did the thing God called us to do, but you can't, you can't sometimes hear that new assignment until you are, you let the RPMs fall.

00:42:40.520 --> 00:42:42.520
 You receive what that next thing is.

00:42:42.520 --> 00:42:48.720
 And if you insist on knowing what the next thing is before you're willing to let go, like, think about that.

00:42:48.780 --> 00:42:50.400
 Like, is that really faith?

00:42:50.500 --> 00:42:52.040
 What does that, what does that look like?

00:42:52.580 --> 00:42:54.580
 Um, that could be a personality thing.

00:42:54.760 --> 00:42:56.260
 All those things could be in there.

00:42:56.680 --> 00:42:57.920
 Holy discontent.

00:42:58.040 --> 00:43:01.720
 I, I, I, I know what that is.

00:43:01.720 --> 00:43:04.400
 I, I, I've obviously a whole month.

00:43:04.540 --> 00:43:12.080
 So much of my life has been seeing something in the world that I hope will be different and putting tons of energy toward that.

00:43:12.380 --> 00:43:28.000
 So, however, we're defining holy discontent, but I've been in some pretty holy discontent, heavy environments, and I've seen when it can just become a driver that is relentless because there will always be something out there that is not as it should be.

00:43:29.360 --> 00:43:32.480
 And yeah, I would say back to the original question.

00:43:32.580 --> 00:43:51.380
 I don't know if you can post it back up there again, but it's like pull people into any discernment process that you have, because when you're in a burning building, you can't really get the perspective of out from the, if you're at the street, what's the best way to try to save this structure?

00:43:51.620 --> 00:43:59.480
 When you're in it, you just don't have the perspective and it's vital to pull people into that process with you.

00:43:59.740 --> 00:44:03.680
 No, I, I think that that's such a, we have to be able to try to gain perspective.

00:44:03.680 --> 00:44:09.460
 And when it's like, it feels like chaos right in front of us, like we can't see beyond that.

00:44:09.580 --> 00:44:18.880
 Um, it's, it's really hard and even taking it just to a, you know, somebody may be struggling with it with a smaller scale of just day-to-day work, something like that.

00:44:18.880 --> 00:44:26.680
 I mean, I've sat across people and talked to them and I'm like, what's one thing you can drop the ball on and it's not going to crash and burn.

00:44:26.980 --> 00:44:28.620
 Like, what's that one thing?

00:44:28.900 --> 00:44:34.700
 If you can find that thing, then you know where your priorities need to be, like to help you get there.

00:44:34.960 --> 00:44:44.900
 And I think it just all, it goes back to, I heard this said once and it's stuck with me ever since, um, was we wear business, busyness, like a badge of honor.

00:44:45.600 --> 00:44:51.460
 And in, especially in American culture, that's, you know, it's productivity, it's get things done.

00:44:51.460 --> 00:44:55.100
 And so it's the complete opposite of what we're trying to talk about with rest.

00:44:55.280 --> 00:44:56.820
 Like you, it's not rest.

00:44:57.000 --> 00:45:08.900
 And then I think rest is viewed a little bit as sometimes like, oh, well, you're being lazy because you're not being productive or, um, weak, or even just like a fear of like it feeling like a failure.

00:45:08.900 --> 00:45:17.380
 If you take time to rest, um, and even to the point that some people will, that's their identity, um, where, you know, you hear it all the time.

00:45:17.440 --> 00:45:18.440
 You ask people how they're doing.

00:45:18.540 --> 00:45:19.920
 They're like, man, I'm really busy.

00:45:20.140 --> 00:45:22.420
 And I've said that I'm like, man, I'm really busy.

00:45:22.420 --> 00:45:23.660
 And then I'm like, wait, hold up.

00:45:24.080 --> 00:45:25.360
 Am I that busy?

00:45:25.560 --> 00:45:31.160
 Like, yes, I have a lot of things on my plate, but really like, I do have time for the rest.

00:45:31.260 --> 00:45:33.700
 I do have like, I put those things in place.

00:45:34.380 --> 00:45:41.540
 Megan, I'm really glad you brought that back around to the idea of rest because that rest is one of the ways that you get perspective.

00:45:42.540 --> 00:45:54.880
 And if you don't ever pull back, if you don't ever take your foot off the gas, if you don't give your body what it needs, there's no way you can have the perspective to then discern.

00:45:55.600 --> 00:45:59.440
 Is the loudest thing in my life actually the one that is most important right now?

00:46:00.040 --> 00:46:04.360
 Well, you won't have the capacity to, to say yes or no.

00:46:04.440 --> 00:46:10.640
 In fact, one of the great examples, I think in the gospels of Jesus, this is my, one of my favorite kind of things for leaders.

00:46:10.640 --> 00:46:13.760
 It's all in Mark one, you know, whole gospel of Mark is like immediately.

00:46:13.760 --> 00:46:20.540
 And then this, and then this, and this, and suddenly, and it's like this aggressive, driving, youthful telling of the story of Jesus.

00:46:20.540 --> 00:46:34.320
 Um, so in Mark one, you go all the way from like John the Baptist, Jesus is born, all the things happen and Jesus is out there already doing ministry and he's healing a bunch of people, casting out demons, doing all this kind of stuff.

00:46:34.880 --> 00:46:41.900
 And at the end of that, like, whatever, it's still the first chapter, like literally the first chapter of the gospel.

00:46:42.700 --> 00:46:47.720
 And I think it's verses like 35 through 36, 37, somewhere around there.

00:46:48.220 --> 00:46:53.960
 The next day says early, while it was still dark, Jesus got up and went off by himself to pray.

00:46:54.880 --> 00:46:55.520
 All right.

00:46:57.200 --> 00:47:04.520
 And when the disciples figured out, he wasn't there, they come and find him.

00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:08.740
 And they say, Mindy paraphrase, what are you doing?

00:47:08.820 --> 00:47:10.780
 Like, there's all this work that needs to be done.

00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:13.720
 People, the whole town is still ready for healing.

00:47:13.720 --> 00:47:17.880
 And you just healed like that 30, 100, who knows how many people.

00:47:18.060 --> 00:47:19.440
 And now these ones are ready.

00:47:19.440 --> 00:47:22.900
 And so like, come on, everybody's waiting for you.

00:47:23.680 --> 00:47:26.400
 And very interesting what Jesus says to them.

00:47:27.360 --> 00:47:28.380
 He says, no.

00:47:29.200 --> 00:47:33.960
 He says, I, we're going to go to these other towns nearby.

00:47:35.380 --> 00:47:40.200
 And for, I don't know, for that is why I've got, I mean, whatever, whatever is his answer.

00:47:40.300 --> 00:47:42.520
 He says, no, we're going to go over here instead.

00:47:43.040 --> 00:47:43.880
 And then they go.

00:47:45.280 --> 00:48:04.240
 And I have said for years that that is one of the most important gifts that we as leaders receive from rest, from time with God, solitude, perspective, prayer, all those things is two things that every single person on this listening someday in the future needs.

00:48:04.460 --> 00:48:16.460
 And the first is clarity on what is it that God has asked me to do, because a people pleaser would have run right back into the town and made sure that the next hundred people have been healed.

00:48:16.620 --> 00:48:19.560
 And there's a part of us that goes like, that's so unfair.

00:48:19.820 --> 00:48:26.820
 I, what if I had waited three days and brought my kid and we, we can't reconcile all that in our heads.

00:48:26.820 --> 00:48:34.500
 But Jesus, because of his, I believe because of his time away, got clarity on what the father had actually called him to do.

00:48:35.300 --> 00:48:47.020
 And then he had that fierce resolve that Jim Collins talks about in the level five leaders that no matter how much his disciples, the whole town, the people that needed help were pressing in.

00:48:48.580 --> 00:48:56.080
 He once again knew what he had been called to do and he went and did it no matter how many people he disappointed that day.

00:48:56.360 --> 00:49:09.640
 And, uh, we, uh, every single leader needs that you gotta, you gotta be able to get away, let the noise floor drop, reconnect as the beloved of God that you're not valuable.

00:49:09.640 --> 00:49:13.200
 Cause of all this great ministry work you're doing, you are just beloved.

00:49:13.440 --> 00:49:24.300
 You are enough and out of rest will come great and beautiful contributions to the world under the guidance, direction, and power of the God.

00:49:24.580 --> 00:49:28.320
 Not just cause you were smart and strong and could figure stuff out.

00:49:28.860 --> 00:49:29.680
 That's so good.

00:49:30.680 --> 00:49:31.460
 It's Jesus.

00:49:32.020 --> 00:49:32.420
 He's good.

00:49:32.620 --> 00:49:42.400
 I, I, I think that we miss sometimes that as a disciple, you know, and if we're trying to help grow other disciples, like we're supposed to be like Jesus.

00:49:42.400 --> 00:49:43.640
 And he did, he rested.

00:49:44.140 --> 00:49:47.880
 That's if that's where we want to lay it, like he rested.

00:49:47.880 --> 00:49:48.900
 So we should rest.

00:49:49.140 --> 00:49:54.560
 And he was very counter-cultural and resting in our culture is very counter-cultural.

00:49:54.820 --> 00:49:57.200
 So let's be a little more like Jesus and rest.

00:49:57.460 --> 00:49:58.560
 Let's be contrarian.

00:49:58.780 --> 00:49:59.960
 Let's end this.

00:50:00.100 --> 00:50:01.120
 How am I busy?

00:50:01.420 --> 00:50:03.720
 Like, like that is not my identity.

00:50:04.340 --> 00:50:07.400
 My schedule might be full, but my identity is not busy.

00:50:07.520 --> 00:50:10.640
 And when I'm around people who really are busy, you kind of know it.

00:50:10.700 --> 00:50:12.080
 It's, I don't want to be around that.

00:50:12.560 --> 00:50:14.460
 It's not how God is when he's with us.

00:50:14.960 --> 00:50:18.820
 Like let, let's, let's start a whole contrarian movement around that.

00:50:18.940 --> 00:50:28.300
 That's why we included rest as one of the six practices that gets highlighted in this book, because it's so hard for leaders.

00:50:28.520 --> 00:50:36.120
 Like I, I find that I could give leaders all kinds of assignments, you know, do this, read that, you know, do that, whatever.

00:50:37.480 --> 00:50:39.860
 And this was, this did come out of a true story.

00:50:39.860 --> 00:50:45.240
 This was an assignment for a very senior leader that I'm, I'm good friends with to this day.

00:50:46.280 --> 00:50:49.060
 And, uh, this was part of a, like a growth plan.

00:50:49.060 --> 00:50:52.280
 He had like, we had all these different things, you know, this, that, and the other.

00:50:52.960 --> 00:51:00.840
 And even two years later, like that would have taken, I don't know, three months to work through most of the assignments in this little growth plan.

00:51:00.840 --> 00:51:06.320
 He still hadn't done, wait for it, a two hour solitude assignment.

00:51:07.940 --> 00:51:08.960
 Two hours now.

00:51:09.860 --> 00:51:12.440
 Staff had been hired and fired.

00:51:13.140 --> 00:51:14.180
 Budgets had been built.

00:51:14.360 --> 00:51:15.580
 Board meetings had happened.

00:51:16.120 --> 00:51:18.060
 Sermons had been written and delivered.

00:51:18.680 --> 00:51:19.820
 All kinds of hard.

00:51:19.880 --> 00:51:23.140
 And I've just come to believe that this is actually the hardest things.

00:51:23.260 --> 00:51:25.000
 Leaders will do all kinds of hard things.

00:51:25.720 --> 00:51:25.820
 Yeah.

00:51:26.660 --> 00:51:31.980
 I think rest is actually the hardest thing for many leaders.

00:51:32.960 --> 00:51:36.220
 And like, I want to see that reversed.

00:51:37.540 --> 00:51:38.660
 I'll pull the thread.

00:51:38.780 --> 00:51:39.020
 Why?

00:51:39.860 --> 00:51:44.380
 Cause you're, you're not wrong, but what is it about a leader?

00:51:45.020 --> 00:51:51.820
 Like, is, is it, we don't want to stop and listen to the sound of our own voice, the doubts, the fears.

00:51:52.880 --> 00:51:57.720
 Why is it so hard for a, for a leader to, to, to rest?

00:51:58.720 --> 00:52:16.020
 I think there's an idolatry to our productivity and it validates, it validates our, when we're weak, when we're tired, we start looking for hits, you know, almost like an addictive language you could use.

00:52:16.080 --> 00:52:18.220
 We start looking for hits to feel better.

00:52:18.720 --> 00:52:28.820
 And a lot of the public acclaim and the productivity that comes with the wins of our leadership can become quite addictive.

00:52:29.200 --> 00:52:32.140
 Like we're just that's I think it's that it's nothing.

00:52:32.300 --> 00:52:34.800
 It's nothing any fancier than that.

00:52:35.300 --> 00:52:39.080
 We just get addicted to our running, running hard and fast.

00:52:39.620 --> 00:52:53.440
 Yeah, that's hard to accept as a leader or as, you know, anyone just yet that sometimes that's where we put our almost our faith in is like getting things done and not in in God where we should.

00:52:53.440 --> 00:53:09.580
 And that is a really good thing to, as Paul would say, put to death, like to put to death the things that reinforce our sense of control, lordship.

00:53:10.620 --> 00:53:14.680
 Sovereignty, all those things, they're they're just illusions.

00:53:15.980 --> 00:53:19.580
 And the sooner we make peace with it, the better.

00:53:19.700 --> 00:53:24.720
 In fact, there's a whole session I did on leadership and it was what did I call it?

00:53:24.760 --> 00:53:28.460
 It was some sort of turn of phrase of becoming lead followers.

00:53:29.460 --> 00:53:36.020
 Like instead of learning how to be a good leader, like how do you learn how to be a really good follower of God?

00:53:37.320 --> 00:53:40.560
 And let your leadership flow out of your followership.

00:53:42.100 --> 00:53:54.620
 And that keeps it just a little bit semantics, but it keeps it just a little more clear who is really leading, who is really going, who is really the main actor here and what exactly is my part in it?

00:53:54.620 --> 00:54:03.880
 So a lot of the courses and stuff like that, that Soul Care has been building is really to help help leaders on this very topic, because this is where we get sideways.

00:54:03.880 --> 00:54:10.660
 And once we get sideways, it's like you're you're you're sideways in water and the tide is pushing the water everywhere.

00:54:10.660 --> 00:54:12.300
 And you're in like three feet of water.

00:54:12.420 --> 00:54:13.920
 You could easily stand up and be fine.

00:54:14.540 --> 00:54:22.740
 But you just you don't know that you're horizontal and you just keep kicking out your legs and you're going to drown if you do not get upright and stand up.

00:54:23.120 --> 00:54:27.740
 And it's not rocket science, but we are there.

00:54:27.740 --> 00:54:30.780
 I believe the body of Christ is very much at risk on this.

00:54:30.920 --> 00:54:35.900
 And rest is a great like intervention that puts to death.

00:54:36.940 --> 00:54:37.980
 It's all about me.

00:54:38.680 --> 00:54:43.040
 And I think a great place to go is like, how do we practically do that?

00:54:43.360 --> 00:54:46.520
 Like, I know that people are going to find rest in different ways.

00:54:46.980 --> 00:54:53.660
 I know one of my really good friends, she lives on a farm and finding rest is going out and working in the field.

00:54:53.660 --> 00:54:57.800
 For me, that would be extremely tiring and would not be rest.

00:54:58.420 --> 00:55:01.280
 So like I know for me, I love to go outside in nature.

00:55:01.440 --> 00:55:06.420
 And we've talked about this before going on walks like that's an amazing thing that helps me find some rest.

00:55:06.600 --> 00:55:12.480
 But what's other ways maybe that work for you or that, you know, other people use as well?

00:55:12.940 --> 00:55:13.100
 Yeah.

00:55:13.820 --> 00:55:24.700
 A big one in our house is a lot of reading, a lot of reading, which some people like depending on your academic background, you might have an actual negative association with recreational reading.

00:55:24.700 --> 00:55:34.300
 But reading that's not about being productive and, you know, because sometimes you pick up the next five books that are sort of like how to be better, do stronger, la, la.

00:55:34.760 --> 00:55:42.080
 It's like, no, you gotta, you gotta find ways to lighten up and just have some, have some fun.

00:55:42.480 --> 00:55:45.260
 Hanging out with friends is usually a good thing.

00:55:45.440 --> 00:55:48.560
 I think it's a lost art in many ways.

00:55:48.580 --> 00:55:50.800
 And there's some sociologists that are talking about this now.

00:55:51.180 --> 00:55:57.440
 We've lost our capacity to just hang out with people without an agenda, without a big price tag.

00:55:57.560 --> 00:56:01.040
 We're all, we're going to meet for appetizers and any of that kind of stuff.

00:56:02.440 --> 00:56:10.520
 Like, do we just know how to sit on somebody's back porch and just be with and hang out?

00:56:10.820 --> 00:56:15.080
 And that, that is a way of, of rest.

00:56:15.080 --> 00:56:19.540
 Not when you're working, not when you're recruiting somebody, not when you're trying to get them to be your next small group leader.

00:56:19.540 --> 00:56:26.900
 Like all of that agenda stuff has to, we've gotta, we've gotta move away from the, the foot on the gas pedal.

00:56:27.580 --> 00:56:42.300
 Um, for some people, like you said, uh, you know, physical, I think getting outdoors in creation, even if it's in a city context, just getting outdoors, even just sun exposure is actually really important.

00:56:42.300 --> 00:56:45.920
 All of these things are, uh, helpful to the body.

00:56:45.920 --> 00:56:56.320
 And then we can go back to sleep, like really learning to, like, if you just said for one month, I want to try to safeguard sleep.

00:56:56.700 --> 00:56:58.420
 And see if I can see a difference.

00:57:00.080 --> 00:57:02.020
 That would be a really good place to start.

00:57:02.520 --> 00:57:03.680
 What does that look like?

00:57:04.200 --> 00:57:04.640
 Sabbath.

00:57:05.360 --> 00:57:10.480
 Like, are you taking a day to have the foot off the gas?

00:57:10.480 --> 00:57:15.720
 And for me and for most in ministry, there's not like a, like, when does that happen?

00:57:15.800 --> 00:57:26.080
 It's like my Sunday's my work day or whatever, but you got to find a 24 hour, I call it a 24 hour floating Sabbath that you just even like draw a line mentally in your calendar.

00:57:26.080 --> 00:57:30.840
 Like Saturday at noon, I'm going to, I'm, I'm not driving anymore.

00:57:30.840 --> 00:57:31.840
 I'm not pushing anymore.

00:57:32.580 --> 00:57:37.920
 And till Sunday at noon, can you hang out?

00:57:38.460 --> 00:57:41.280
 Can you, in my house, I go play with the chickens.

00:57:41.460 --> 00:57:48.960
 So it's not a full on farm thing, but like we got, we got some chickens out on the land and they make me laugh and they're just hilarious.

00:57:48.960 --> 00:57:53.500
 So like what, what, what, what brings delight to you?

00:57:53.720 --> 00:58:00.700
 Um, those activities can be restful, but it won't just float downstream into rest and do not.

00:58:00.840 --> 00:58:23.920
 You want to talk about the biggest fake rest is, uh, Instagram, Tik TOK, that scrolling that'll turn into, I don't know, 40 minutes, two and a half hours that you, you just seeded, gave over to, uh, nothingness.

00:58:24.340 --> 00:58:26.340
 And I'm, I, I love it.

00:58:26.360 --> 00:58:27.200
 I love being on there.

00:58:27.300 --> 00:58:30.980
 I love what I learn and see and catching up with friends and learning about people's work.

00:58:30.980 --> 00:58:33.100
 That's far outside my network.

00:58:33.100 --> 00:58:38.960
 So within the right boundaries, of course, enjoy, love, but it is not restful.

00:58:39.640 --> 00:58:40.780
 It is not restful.

00:58:40.920 --> 00:58:42.260
 It does not rest your brain.

00:58:43.360 --> 00:58:49.400
 It might waste time or take time, but it does not, does not contribute to actual rest.

00:58:50.820 --> 00:58:58.720
 Well, I know you guys are the digital people, so I hope I'm not like throwing down on a bad topic.

00:58:59.320 --> 00:59:02.500
 No, no, no, I, I, let, let me say this because you brought up a good point.

00:59:02.680 --> 00:59:07.060
 Um, like I, for the most part, I, I've cut myself off of social media over the past year.

00:59:07.800 --> 00:59:11.500
 Um, and so like, no, I invest in digital community.

00:59:11.500 --> 00:59:20.900
 Like if you want to engage with me, the, the people that are in discord in the TCD discord in that community, the 400 plus people, like that's, that's where I hang out.

00:59:20.900 --> 00:59:29.820
 Um, but having it one inbox instead of, you know, six or seven, like all the social media networks for me in my life, that's been great.

00:59:30.400 --> 00:59:35.320
 And it has, there's seasons where, where I do it and there's seasons where, where I don't, I'll be honest.

00:59:35.320 --> 00:59:45.640
 Like yesterday, um, I went to bed and I missed a, a really important personal, uh, from a friend of mine, a personal text message.

00:59:45.840 --> 00:59:50.760
 And I got it at like, uh, nine, nine, eight, eight 30 or nine o'clock at night last night.

00:59:51.100 --> 00:59:57.780
 Um, because I had my phone on do not disturb all day and ignored it entirely.

00:59:57.960 --> 01:00:07.820
 And so like, there are seasons where I, Hey, you know what, it, if, if, if the building's on fire, somebody is going to text my wife and, uh, and I'm going to go through that instead.

01:00:08.200 --> 01:00:17.260
 And social media is, is great to connect with people, but I, in my place of ministry, I prefer a digital community as opposed to social media right now.

01:00:17.260 --> 01:00:21.900
 And so it's, it's, it's a different strategy I'm implementing and it works for me.

01:00:22.860 --> 01:00:27.400
 I don't think that, I don't think that social media is bad.

01:00:27.740 --> 01:00:41.120
 At least it can be restorative the way that it can be bad, but it is possible to, to operate in a way where it's healthily that the, the, the challenge is, is that social media by its nature is addictive.

01:00:41.580 --> 01:00:53.060
 And you've got to be aware, this is not a restful and if left to its own, it will end in a, in a, in a, in a doom scroll.

01:00:53.360 --> 01:00:56.920
 And you've got it, you've got a schedule and you've got to say no.

01:00:56.920 --> 01:01:01.320
 And you've got to, I mean, I, I know Jason Morris is actually great at, great at this.

01:01:01.940 --> 01:01:05.680
 His phone, uh, is, is constantly in black and white.

01:01:05.740 --> 01:01:10.300
 He has an, an Apple iPhone, but he turns on the thing where it's, it's, there's no color.

01:01:10.880 --> 01:01:17.580
 Um, and just looking at, at those Instagram photos and black and white and looking at that, that interface, it's less addictive.

01:01:17.940 --> 01:01:21.180
 It's less of, of that dopamine hit that just keeps pulling you in.

01:01:21.320 --> 01:01:25.000
 And so being black and white enables him to, to, to get out.

01:01:25.620 --> 01:01:28.480
 And there have been seasons where I've done the same thing in my life.

01:01:29.060 --> 01:01:47.320
 And so it's, it's, it's ways to, you know, as digital missionaries and digital pastors and planters, um, yeah, we've got to, that's the reason we're doing this podcast season is because we are doing ministry in an addictive space, but that doesn't mean we run from it.

01:01:47.320 --> 01:01:50.820
 It means that we have to protect ourselves as we're going in totally.

01:01:51.100 --> 01:01:54.380
 And it gives you, um, impetus.

01:01:54.380 --> 01:02:02.420
 I hope to recognize that you're going to meet people who are in deep need and deep in their own addictions.

01:02:02.420 --> 01:02:09.940
 And so this, uh, knowingly or unknowingly like good Lord, people keep doing what you're doing.

01:02:10.060 --> 01:02:17.240
 Just do it from health, do it from wellness, do it from rest, do it from a healthy soul, do it from your own flourishing.

01:02:17.680 --> 01:02:20.760
 But please be a light in these places.

01:02:20.900 --> 01:02:24.200
 We've got to try to stop this.

01:02:25.080 --> 01:02:31.420
 I mean, it seems like an insurmountable tide of loneliness, isolation.

01:02:32.060 --> 01:02:34.180
 Like my son just wrote a really cool blog post.

01:02:34.240 --> 01:02:38.640
 You would love it, uh, Jeff, that, uh, was about, um, a son that you don't know.

01:02:38.700 --> 01:02:46.800
 You know, my other two, um, he, uh, he wrote about how we spend our days no longer interacting with people.

01:02:47.220 --> 01:02:54.400
 We spend our days watching people and there was something sad about the way he phrased that.

01:02:54.400 --> 01:03:07.620
 It's like that those are the people that these digital missionaries, you all are going to reach and they're spending their days just watching people, but they're getting more and more alone.

01:03:07.620 --> 01:03:10.920
 They're getting more and more addicted.

01:03:11.400 --> 01:03:14.940
 It's your presence in these spaces is vital.

01:03:16.200 --> 01:03:21.580
 You, you, Jeff, you know, Megan, I don't know, you know, the story, but Jeff Reed had me at hello.

01:03:21.580 --> 01:03:32.420
 When he told me the vision for why digital ministries, I went into this meeting thinking, I don't know if digital church is like real.

01:03:32.560 --> 01:03:40.700
 And I came out going, this might very well be the hope for recovering a vision for discipleship everywhere else.

01:03:40.940 --> 01:03:43.200
 Like we've guys, we need your strength.

01:03:43.200 --> 01:03:43.580
 Like we've guys, we need your strength.

01:03:43.700 --> 01:03:44.740
 We need your vision.

01:03:44.880 --> 01:03:46.320
 We need you in fresh places.

01:03:46.640 --> 01:03:53.360
 We need you on this frontier, but please go in from health and with peace.

01:03:53.360 --> 01:04:11.180
 And as one being led and guided by the spirit, that would be my hope and my prayer for you, that your soul would be fully ignited and that you out of rest can be part of changing the narrative of what's real right now.

01:04:11.740 --> 01:04:13.000
 We need innovation.

01:04:16.120 --> 01:04:17.020
 Love you, friend.

01:04:18.120 --> 01:04:19.900
 Megan, fun to get to know you.

01:04:20.700 --> 01:04:25.100
 I don't even know that we could land a plane any better than she just did.

01:04:25.300 --> 01:04:26.140
 That's so good.

01:04:27.020 --> 01:04:30.320
 It's like Mindy Caliguari has done this a time or two.

01:04:30.520 --> 01:04:31.600
 So thank you for that.

01:04:31.700 --> 01:04:38.160
 But hey, those of you in Twitch, thanks for hanging out with us here with the stream and podcast and watching online.

01:04:38.840 --> 01:04:39.380
 Love it.

01:04:39.460 --> 01:04:40.760
 Questions, feel free to text me.

01:04:40.820 --> 01:04:43.760
 My phone number, 484-324-8724.

01:04:44.440 --> 01:04:49.200
 We'd love to connect with you or hang out with us on Discord, discord.thechurch.digital.

01:04:49.340 --> 01:04:55.680
 Mindy's book, Ignite Your Soul on Amazon, pre-order or buy there.

01:04:57.320 --> 01:05:06.180
 And you can check out her other life role, what she's doing over at soulcare.com.

01:05:06.620 --> 01:05:08.620
 Hey, Mindy, thanks for hanging out with us today.

01:05:08.780 --> 01:05:11.980
 This has been, oh, it's always a pleasure on my side as well.

01:05:12.540 --> 01:05:17.020
 Megan, once again, we've got just a couple more weeks left in this and looking forward to what's next.

01:05:17.180 --> 01:05:19.860
 But for Mindy, for Megan, this is Jeff with The Church Digital.

01:05:20.340 --> 01:05:23.140
 Thanks for hanging out with us, and we'll see you next time here on the show.

01:05:23.380 --> 01:05:24.040
 Y'all have a good day.

01:05:26.520 --> 01:05:37.860
 We'll see you next time.

01:05:37.860 --> 01:05:38.160
 We'll see you next time.