WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.660 I think one of the big things is to understand that, like I said in the beginning, is we're all addicted to comfort. 00:00:06.420 --> 00:00:10.600 You know, we all have, everybody has an idol of the heart, something that they go to instead of God. 00:00:10.760 --> 00:00:18.920 And if, you know, for the listeners to just think about, you know, whenever adversity strikes or they don't get their agenda, what do they go to first? 00:00:19.800 --> 00:00:21.760 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:22.480 --> 00:00:26.600 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church. 00:00:26.600 --> 00:00:30.420 But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. 00:00:31.100 --> 00:00:32.640 Is disciple making possible digitally? 00:00:33.100 --> 00:00:35.100 How should we approach the digital mission field? 00:00:35.400 --> 00:00:37.960 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? 00:00:38.380 --> 00:00:42.260 Oh, and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this? 00:00:43.280 --> 00:00:51.860 Whether you're a big or small church, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, digitally and physically. 00:00:52.380 --> 00:00:54.020 And now here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:00:54.020 --> 00:00:57.660 All right. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:58.000 --> 00:01:03.420 We are live once again, broadcasting this right now on Twitch. 00:01:03.600 --> 00:01:11.320 Jeff Reed here, founder of the Church Digital, doing episode 312, 312 on addictions. 00:01:11.460 --> 00:01:19.960 Now, remember, we're in this season of digital and mental health, really created by co-host here, Megan Carter. 00:01:19.960 --> 00:01:23.300 Megan, you know, you did a great job putting the season together. 00:01:23.740 --> 00:01:28.960 As we're coming into 312, talking about addictions, any thoughts as you're walking in? 00:01:30.080 --> 00:01:32.580 Man, I don't know. I've loved this season. 00:01:33.020 --> 00:01:36.880 I've loved being able to walk through so many different avenues of mental health. 00:01:36.940 --> 00:01:39.240 And there's like so many we didn't even hit on. 00:01:39.560 --> 00:01:42.680 We could go into so much like more detail of different things. 00:01:42.680 --> 00:01:46.240 And even just the episodes we went through already with every guest. 00:01:46.300 --> 00:01:47.060 It was incredible. 00:01:47.060 --> 00:01:54.740 So I'm really excited about this one today, too, because I think we've a lot of people have people in their life or there's something they've struggled with. 00:01:54.800 --> 00:01:59.480 So this is a really topic, big topic that we we need to talk about. 00:01:59.580 --> 00:02:04.440 And it deals with in people that you're in the physical with or just even just online. 00:02:04.440 --> 00:02:05.840 We have that in both spaces. 00:02:05.840 --> 00:02:07.500 So I'm really excited about this conversation. 00:02:07.960 --> 00:02:23.680 Yeah, as we've gone deeper into this season, we've definitely gone higher up the I don't want to say pay grade, but higher up the the mental health scale of intelligence here at the conversation. 00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:33.660 You know, we opened up with some some more digital ministry type people that that are struggling with or have adapted and are working through some some mental health issues. 00:02:33.660 --> 00:02:45.920 But, you know, here with with today, we're bringing in a an expert, somebody who is certified, who has done the work and is actually, you know, a doctor in this space. 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:55.100 And so I want to introduce Dr. Carl, Dr. Carl, Dr. Carl Benzio with the American Association of Christian Counselors. 00:02:55.200 --> 00:02:59.560 Doctor, hey, thanks for joining the stream here and being part of this season with us. 00:02:59.560 --> 00:03:04.600 Hey, thanks, guys. Looking forward to this and just an honor and feel blessed to serve you guys in this way. 00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:14.460 Yeah. So, Dr. Carl, we did some work with with ACC and Dr. Carl back with some blue stuff and really just have loved the conversation. 00:03:14.680 --> 00:03:21.940 We wanted to do a conversation centered around neurodivergence sometime last year and it kind of just fell off the radar. 00:03:21.940 --> 00:03:25.660 And a lot of my gaming friends like that's that's a really big thing. 00:03:26.440 --> 00:03:29.340 And so we'll come back to that conversation at some point. 00:03:29.340 --> 00:03:37.040 But as we're as we're looking at this season, really, the idea of addictions kind of came up in the conversation, you know, 00:03:37.040 --> 00:03:45.060 not only like ministering to and dealing with people that are in that are dealing with addictions, 00:03:45.060 --> 00:03:58.660 but also, you know, in many ways, the areas that we're doing ministry are in and themselves addictive areas like getting addicted to mobile devices or getting addicted to virtual reality. 00:03:58.660 --> 00:04:07.040 Or, you know, it's funny. I had a CEO as I was writing the book for my virtual reality in church, church and virtual reality book. 00:04:07.540 --> 00:04:15.280 I see you have a Christian tech company says to me, hey, Jeff, what's the church going to do when virtual reality actually becomes a better reality than the physical reality that we're in? 00:04:15.540 --> 00:04:16.860 And more people get addicted to that. 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:19.080 And I was like, that's a great question. 00:04:19.080 --> 00:04:22.660 And so I almost would like see what Dr. Carl's response is or something like that. 00:04:22.740 --> 00:04:25.840 But I'm really looking forward to this conversation here. 00:04:26.380 --> 00:04:35.120 And I know that Megan's put a lot of work into the ideas centered around even just addiction and mental health and digital. 00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:38.680 And so, hey, Megan, why don't you kick us off here in the conversation? 00:04:39.460 --> 00:04:48.900 Yeah, I think we should just start with like, let's give a definition of what addiction is and then kind of just go into like you mentioned a little bit, Jeff, 00:04:49.020 --> 00:04:53.480 is that it's a lot of times we think of maybe substance or different things like that. 00:04:53.560 --> 00:04:56.540 But there's other things that can you can get addicted to. 00:04:56.640 --> 00:05:02.820 So maybe go into what it is and then what are some things maybe we don't think of that we can become addicted to? 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:15.660 Yeah. So addiction, we, you know, the CDC lists the leading causes of death in the United States and cardiovascular and cancer and then accidents are usually the top three. 00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:19.880 But if you really parse into the numbers, abortion is number one. 00:05:19.880 --> 00:05:21.840 And addiction is real close with abortion. 00:05:22.500 --> 00:05:24.400 Cardiovascular is about 700,000. 00:05:24.500 --> 00:05:30.020 But addiction kills anywhere from 850,000 to 1 million people a year in the United States. 00:05:30.100 --> 00:05:37.400 So we're talking about something that's really significant here, not just, OK, well, we have a couple of people that have an alcohol problem or smoking or whatever. 00:05:37.700 --> 00:05:41.540 So this is one of the leading causes of death in the United States, addiction. 00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:50.280 So a definition, sort of a layman's term, definition for addiction is when a person has trouble stopping a substance or a behavior, 00:05:50.280 --> 00:05:54.420 even though they have repeated disruptive consequences. 00:05:54.580 --> 00:06:00.320 So they have trouble stopping a substance or a behavior, even though there's repeated disruptive consequences. 00:06:00.320 --> 00:06:05.080 And in our scientific psychiatric realm, we have this book called the DSM-5. 00:06:05.460 --> 00:06:13.000 And the DSM-5 lists these 11 criteria that a person needs to meet a certain set of them using more than usual, 00:06:13.480 --> 00:06:15.480 unsuccessful efforts to cut down. 00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:19.760 It's disruptive in their life, interferes with work, school or relationships. 00:06:20.320 --> 00:06:23.200 There can be tolerance where you need more to get the same high. 00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:31.280 You can have withdrawal symptoms from some, not just substances, but things like what we talk about, screen addictions. 00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:34.960 You know, you can have a withdrawal from even screen addictions or pornography. 00:06:34.960 --> 00:06:37.180 So we can get into that a little bit later. 00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:40.800 So that's sort of some of the definition of it. 00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:51.920 You know, to me, a biblical definition is when we pursue something other than God, we pursue something other than God in a repetitive, habitual or patterned way to get our needs met. 00:06:52.660 --> 00:06:54.940 You know, so God gives us, he knows we're going to be addicts. 00:06:55.020 --> 00:06:56.740 We're designed to worship him. 00:06:57.080 --> 00:06:58.220 He knows we're going to be addicts. 00:06:58.220 --> 00:07:02.660 So he gives us these two commandments, the first two commandments, thou shalt have no other God before me. 00:07:02.660 --> 00:07:08.920 And when a person gets addicted to something, that thing, that object, that addiction object becomes the God in their life. 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:12.140 It becomes something that everything else in their life revolves around. 00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:16.360 That addiction object sort of forms the orbits of everything else in their life. 00:07:16.760 --> 00:07:23.480 And he says, don't fashion anything, you know, in the skies above on the earth here or even below the earth to worship, you know, 00:07:23.480 --> 00:07:33.140 because he knows that that's going to be what we're sort of called to or sort of pulled to in our flesh, you know, to worship something other than him. 00:07:33.140 --> 00:07:35.240 And so that's what that addiction process is. 00:07:35.320 --> 00:07:40.000 So pursuing something other than God in a repetitive, habitual or patterned way to get our needs met. 00:07:40.880 --> 00:07:46.340 I believe looking at, you know, I've treated patients for 35 years and in my own life that we're all addicts. 00:07:46.460 --> 00:07:47.620 We're all addicted to comfort. 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:53.440 So if you see the things that we do in our life, we're all pursuing comfort, whether we have a job so we can have a roof over our head. 00:07:53.480 --> 00:07:58.240 And so I'm comfortable as a dad because my kids have shoes and have food and those kind of things. 00:07:58.660 --> 00:07:59.940 We just don't like discomfort. 00:08:00.200 --> 00:08:02.540 We're great at telling other people, hey, no pain, no gain. 00:08:02.940 --> 00:08:03.720 Keep on pushing. 00:08:04.080 --> 00:08:06.780 But when we have pain in our lives, we don't like it at all. 00:08:06.780 --> 00:08:13.180 And it's amazing what we look to to relieve that discomfort or relieve that pain in our lives. 00:08:14.140 --> 00:08:17.400 So oftentimes, addictions sort of sneak up on people. 00:08:17.820 --> 00:08:21.840 And, you know, I think it's real important to understand the six stages of addiction. 00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:23.800 So there's six stages to addiction. 00:08:23.940 --> 00:08:29.420 And a person usually doesn't go through each one linearly like, OK, I'm going to spend time at this time at this time and this and go through. 00:08:29.420 --> 00:08:35.060 But for the most part, they do go through the six stages if they're really in their throes of addiction. 00:08:35.460 --> 00:08:36.900 The first one is experimental. 00:08:37.520 --> 00:08:43.680 When, you know, there's no agenda, they just sort of, you know, use a substance and go, I've heard about this thing and I just want to try it out. 00:08:44.560 --> 00:08:45.680 Some people stop at that. 00:08:45.920 --> 00:08:49.660 Some people continue on to recreational, where it's usually in a social setting. 00:08:49.740 --> 00:08:50.560 They're with a bunch of buds. 00:08:50.660 --> 00:08:57.540 Somebody has something and, OK, I'll try it out, whether it's a substance, whether it's, you know, pornography, whether it's a video game or whatever. 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:02.080 Then the third stage, this is the critical stage. 00:09:02.200 --> 00:09:04.220 This is circumstantial use. 00:09:04.220 --> 00:09:21.400 So circumstantial use, it means whenever a person uses that particular addiction object, we're going to talk about chemicals right now, substances, alcohol, caffeine, heroin, painkillers, stimulants, whatever, they get some benefit from that chemical. 00:09:21.720 --> 00:09:30.780 So whether they're studying for a test and they need to stay up longer, so they use some, you know, their buddy's Adderall, the roommate's, you know, Ritalin, they use a little cocaine. 00:09:31.180 --> 00:09:35.000 They're nervous about going to a party and talking to girls, so they'll drink some alcohol. 00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:40.440 A lot of stress at home, so they need a drink or they need to smoke some weed. 00:09:40.860 --> 00:09:53.060 So circumstantial use is that very dangerous stage because a person is tricked into thinking that, wow, this addiction object actually has some benefit for me. 00:09:53.260 --> 00:09:54.800 It sort of gets me out of something. 00:09:54.940 --> 00:09:57.700 It fixes a problem that I'm struggling with. 00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:05.040 So whenever we get tricked into thinking, oh, instead of being harmful, this thing is actually beneficial for me, then we start to use it more. 00:10:05.340 --> 00:10:08.800 We start to apply it to a whole bunch of other different issues and struggles that we have. 00:10:08.860 --> 00:10:10.960 We call that regular use, stage four. 00:10:11.500 --> 00:10:13.700 Then we start to usually get some consequences. 00:10:14.180 --> 00:10:17.080 Sometimes people back off when those consequences start adding up. 00:10:17.420 --> 00:10:18.980 Sometimes people don't. 00:10:19.040 --> 00:10:26.600 And then they go into that intensified use where legal, financial, relationship, sometimes physical issues start to occur. 00:10:26.940 --> 00:10:32.400 Then the sixth stage is compulsive where that person just has a hard time stopping on their own. 00:10:32.460 --> 00:10:33.300 They've tried to stop. 00:10:33.460 --> 00:10:39.980 It just becomes such a sort of innate part of who they are that they are a compulsive user. 00:10:39.980 --> 00:10:45.040 And they really need some outside intervention, whether a treatment center, a significant intervention. 00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:50.480 They need to be physically separated from the object that they're addicted to to be able to get some relief. 00:10:50.600 --> 00:10:52.160 So those are the six stages. 00:10:52.340 --> 00:10:59.460 Again, that circumstantial stage when Satan tricks us into thinking, wow, whatever that addiction object is, it's beneficial for me. 00:10:59.540 --> 00:11:00.760 It makes my life easier. 00:11:01.020 --> 00:11:02.220 It solves a problem for me. 00:11:02.460 --> 00:11:05.800 That's the dangerous step because then we start to think, oh, really, it's not that bad. 00:11:05.940 --> 00:11:11.520 I can use it in a whole lot of different ways, and my life is going to be better when, in reality, it leads to destruction. 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:13.180 Nothing really better comes from it. 00:11:14.440 --> 00:11:23.200 It's tough to kick these addiction objects because there's an underlying psychospiritual problem that we're dealing with. 00:11:23.200 --> 00:11:27.300 So for a long time, we've always thought addiction was the primary problem. 00:11:27.660 --> 00:11:34.620 So we look to most of the treatment facilities out there that treat addictions, treat addiction, and they don't treat the underlying problem. 00:11:34.680 --> 00:11:41.220 They look at addiction as the primary issue, and so they try to behaviorally help the person stay away from using that addiction object. 00:11:41.680 --> 00:11:48.540 So I started Honey Lake Clinic, a treatment center, because in all my years of treating people, I always saw that there was an underlying issue, 00:11:48.540 --> 00:11:57.260 that circumstantial space or something underneath that they're trying to self-medicate, trying to escape from, trying to distract from, trying to heal from. 00:11:57.620 --> 00:12:02.260 And so their addiction object is their attempt to get at that underlying issue. 00:12:02.680 --> 00:12:12.460 So it's tough to kick because usually people don't have an awareness of the underlying issue, whether it's something that happened 30 years ago, something that happened 5 years ago, something that happened 20 minutes ago. 00:12:12.460 --> 00:12:16.840 So there's hurts and losses and struggles that pile up along the way. 00:12:16.840 --> 00:12:28.500 And because we don't ever, I don't say don't ever, because it's difficult for us to have a lot of good awareness about what's going on inside and how those ripples sort of play out into this addiction process. 00:12:28.760 --> 00:12:38.440 That's why it's really hard for a lot of people to stop their addiction because they're trying to do these behavioral things and not really get at the psychological and the spiritual aspects that are underneath. 00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:50.460 Addiction objects feed the flesh, so we get tricked into, again, that circumstantial of feeling good, and we get a dopamine release in that reward pathway that makes us feel good and gives us a euphoria. 00:12:51.320 --> 00:12:54.680 So that flesh feels good, say, oh, wow, this thing must be good for me. 00:12:55.320 --> 00:13:12.840 And the other thing that happens is when we turn to this addiction object in a repetitive, frequent way, those other skills that we should be growing, that we should be getting better at, that we should be using psychologically, relationally, emotionally, spiritually, we're not using those skills anymore. 00:13:13.040 --> 00:13:14.360 We're not growing those skills. 00:13:14.560 --> 00:13:19.400 So those skills are starting to atrophy or wither away, and now they're not available for us. 00:13:19.400 --> 00:13:32.040 So now the only thing that we have is that addiction object, so we just keep on going to that because our other skills are, you know, are locked deep down inside or they even have atrophied and withered away, so we don't even think that we have those skills anymore. 00:13:32.440 --> 00:13:42.760 And so that's why it's hard for people, once they get into that regular or intensified use, it's just really hard for them to dig out because, you know, some people say that, you know, you're the emotional age that you first started using. 00:13:42.760 --> 00:13:59.780 So if you started using at age 15 or 16 and now you're 35, your emotional age is still 16, that's not necessarily fully accurate, but the idea is you haven't developed those skills from 16 to 25 or 35 that other people have developed to try to dig out of the psycho-spiritual struggle that you're in. 00:14:00.340 --> 00:14:01.300 It's interesting. 00:14:01.300 --> 00:14:19.120 I've never taken that into consideration with addiction, that there's part of you, because you're adapting with the addiction, there's part of you that's atrophying or that's weakening because you're not dealing with it at the emotional level. 00:14:20.200 --> 00:14:32.600 Yeah, so if you think of a person wearing a cast, their leg is broken, they're wearing a cast, well, the cast is somewhat helpful, it gets them through a particular issue, but if the cast is on too long, if they're using it too frequently, now all those muscles underneath, atrophy. 00:14:32.860 --> 00:14:37.320 So when they take the cast off, they can't walk, they need physical therapy now to rebuild back up. 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:45.980 And so psychologically and emotionally and spiritually, that's the same thing that happens, those things atrophy, and that's what people don't have a realization or an understanding of. 00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:53.200 What do we look for to understand at an interpersonal level what's atrophying or not? 00:14:53.380 --> 00:15:03.860 Like if there's someone here that's listening to this that's struggling with an addiction, like what are the symptoms or what are the tell signs or how do you work through that at what's atrophying? 00:15:04.700 --> 00:15:15.340 Yeah, so those things that we call emotional intelligence, so people being aware of their emotions that are going on inside, being able to understand those emotions. 00:15:15.340 --> 00:15:29.940 You know, these uncomfortable feelings that we have, anger, sadness, you know, we don't like them, but that's the warning system that God has given us to let us know that something's not going right or there's potential danger. 00:15:30.040 --> 00:15:31.400 There's like the red light on the dashboard. 00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:34.880 We're never thrilled when our red light on our dashboard goes, you know, lights up. 00:15:35.040 --> 00:15:40.220 But it's really good that that happens because that lets us know, hey, there's a problem that we need to pay attention to. 00:15:40.800 --> 00:15:47.560 So whenever people have trouble identifying, talking about, processing those emotions, that's a big problem. 00:15:47.920 --> 00:15:51.360 When people are impulsive, they don't think through their decisions. 00:15:51.460 --> 00:15:54.520 They become sort of rash, sort of crude decision makers. 00:15:55.340 --> 00:16:02.600 Whenever they become isolated, because of shame, because of guilt, you know, the opposite of addiction is belonging. 00:16:03.460 --> 00:16:09.900 And so when a person is starting to get addicted to something, it starts to take up their space, their relational space. 00:16:09.980 --> 00:16:12.180 They develop a relationship with that addiction object. 00:16:12.500 --> 00:16:21.260 And now they're sort of pushing out the other people, partly because they don't have space for those other people, partly because some of their psychological and emotional skills are starting to atrophy. 00:16:21.400 --> 00:16:24.440 So they're not a really good person, you know, in relationships. 00:16:24.440 --> 00:16:28.840 They don't, you know, hold up their end of the relationship bargain a lot of times. 00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:35.220 But then also those people are telling them, hey, what you're doing isn't good for you, or that's unhealthy, or you're, hey, you're making a mistake. 00:16:35.320 --> 00:16:37.480 And the addict doesn't want to hear, you know, that message. 00:16:37.480 --> 00:16:39.400 So they're pulling away from those people. 00:16:39.500 --> 00:16:43.120 So their island is drifting farther and farther away, you know, from the mainland. 00:16:43.260 --> 00:16:45.240 So that sort of isolation that occurs. 00:16:45.560 --> 00:16:46.840 Sometimes there's a lot of blame. 00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:48.260 They, you know, they blame their boss. 00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:49.140 They blame their wife. 00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:50.240 They blame their kids. 00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:54.620 They blame their, I don't have enough money, or I can't get the treatment, or whatever. 00:16:54.780 --> 00:17:10.800 There's always looking sort of an external focus of why they're struggling and not really looking internally of what psychologically and spiritually is going on inside me that's the cause of my, you know, poor decision-making and my sort of immature behavior and conduct. 00:17:10.800 --> 00:17:21.740 So those are some signs that, you know, temperamental, temper tantrums, being impulsive, not making sense sometimes. 00:17:22.140 --> 00:17:25.380 Sometimes you'll see things that don't line up because now they're starting to lie. 00:17:25.480 --> 00:17:27.580 They're starting to, you know, they got lame excuses. 00:17:27.900 --> 00:17:37.380 And, well, you told me, you know, you're, you know, two years ago you were out because your grandmother died, but now your grandmother died again, you know, kind of, you know, so just things just aren't lining up. 00:17:37.380 --> 00:17:40.620 You see these inconsistencies in their life and their stories. 00:17:41.540 --> 00:17:47.980 Yeah, and I think that there is such a huge stigma attached to addiction. 00:17:48.660 --> 00:17:53.640 And our church works a lot with recovery homes and transitional homes and those kind of things. 00:17:53.720 --> 00:17:59.400 And we have a pretty large population that have been through addiction or different things like that. 00:17:59.900 --> 00:18:06.820 And that's really changed my view is like getting and meeting with the people and talking with them and hearing their experience. 00:18:06.820 --> 00:18:08.540 So that's helped me so much. 00:18:08.660 --> 00:18:14.060 But what is something that we could do to help change, to get rid of that stigma? 00:18:14.840 --> 00:18:23.560 Because, obviously, that's not everybody falls under one category that it doesn't, they don't all, like, they're not all going to let you down. 00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:24.480 They're not all going to do this. 00:18:24.560 --> 00:18:28.320 There are some that are really trying to work hard and a lot is fighting against them. 00:18:28.420 --> 00:18:31.540 So what's some things that maybe we can do to help with that? 00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:37.360 I think one of the big things is to understand that, like I said in the beginning, is we're all addicted to comfort. 00:18:38.120 --> 00:18:42.320 You know, we all have, everybody has an idol of the heart, something that they go to instead of God. 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:50.620 And, you know, for the listeners to just think about, you know, whenever adversity strikes or they don't get their agenda, what do they go to first? 00:18:51.140 --> 00:18:52.400 It could be a substance. 00:18:52.600 --> 00:18:53.900 It could be a thought pattern. 00:18:53.980 --> 00:18:55.180 It could be an emotion. 00:18:55.600 --> 00:19:00.280 Very rarely do we go to God and say, boy, God, you know, my agenda just didn't happen. 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:01.840 What are you trying to teach me? 00:19:02.220 --> 00:19:03.600 What do you, you know, what's your plan? 00:19:03.660 --> 00:19:04.740 What's your goal right now? 00:19:05.420 --> 00:19:15.720 You know, I remember, you know, one time whenever I was on a missions trip and, you know, we were in Kenya and, you know, we had all this great PowerPoint set up and, you know, we had worked through our talks, but there was no electricity. 00:19:16.260 --> 00:19:20.220 And so we're trying to figure out all these ways to sort of pull together electricity in this little shack and stuff. 00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:23.860 And, you know, we're a generator and this and that. 00:19:23.960 --> 00:19:27.100 And, you know, one of our hosts comes back and says, hey, did we pray? 00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:32.420 I'm like, oh, yeah, boy, I guess we could have prayed about that problem first. 00:19:32.420 --> 00:19:51.760 But, you know, whether it's productivity, whether it's our own skills, whether it's our education, whether it's our IQ, whether it's our ability to make people laugh, people-pleasing, work, exercise, there's a bunch of different, those process addictions, screens, social media that we, you know, have to soothe ourselves. 00:19:51.840 --> 00:19:55.220 So there's a whole bunch of things that happen, a donut, ice cream. 00:19:55.740 --> 00:19:58.860 You know, you look at our church population and we have a lot of obesity. 00:19:58.860 --> 00:20:09.180 You know, a lot of people are addicted to food that they won't say anything, but they'll have a judgmental attitude about the person that comes in with tattoos that might have just gotten out of rehab or just got out of detox. 00:20:09.500 --> 00:20:10.960 And, wow, that person has a problem. 00:20:11.020 --> 00:20:18.940 But yet all their health is off the chart, you know, because of their obesity and their, you know, difficulty managing decisions around food. 00:20:19.140 --> 00:20:23.220 So I think just to be able to have the idea that, hey, we all struggle. 00:20:23.900 --> 00:20:26.460 We all have, you know, Jesus had perfect brain chemistry. 00:20:26.760 --> 00:20:27.980 All the rest of us don't. 00:20:28.340 --> 00:20:31.500 You know, we all have psychological struggles and we all have an addiction. 00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:32.680 We're all addicted to comfort. 00:20:32.860 --> 00:20:42.180 And there's each one of us has several different process addictions, whether it's power, whether it's control, people pleasing, victim mentality, anger. 00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:48.460 You know, we all have something that we go to in a repetitive, habitual or patterned way to get our needs met instead of going to God. 00:20:48.460 --> 00:21:02.920 And I think when we sort of put everybody on an even playing field, that helps a person have a little bit more compassion and empathy for somebody who, you know, who has a struggle in an area that I don't. 00:21:03.020 --> 00:21:06.900 You know, so I might not have a struggle with heroin, but I had a significant struggle with alcohol. 00:21:06.900 --> 00:21:23.000 I mean, I ended up in jail for six counts of aggravated assault, you know, a convicted felon whenever I was back in my 20s because of my alcohol use, anxiety and anger and a whole bunch of fights and just, you know, the attitude that I had. 00:21:24.220 --> 00:21:27.260 But there were other things that I didn't struggle with it, you know, gambling. 00:21:27.420 --> 00:21:28.340 I never struggled with gambling. 00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:31.140 I could easily look at a gambling addict and say, well, how can you do that? 00:21:31.160 --> 00:21:31.860 That's so stupid. 00:21:31.960 --> 00:21:33.340 Why would you be wasting your money on that? 00:21:33.580 --> 00:21:36.080 And he's looking at me saying, well, you're an alcoholic. 00:21:36.080 --> 00:21:39.060 You know, you got you were in jail for aggravated assault. 00:21:39.180 --> 00:21:40.660 Like, why would you do anything like that? 00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:45.200 I mean, gambling, I don't hurt anybody gambling, whereas you were beating up on people and getting beat up. 00:21:45.520 --> 00:21:49.000 You know, so I think for us to all understand that, hey, we all have addictions. 00:21:50.140 --> 00:21:51.680 I think that levels the playing field. 00:21:51.800 --> 00:21:58.500 I think to look at the idea that we need to look at spirit, mind and body, that the addiction isn't the primary thing. 00:21:59.260 --> 00:22:00.680 There's a lot of hurt underneath. 00:22:00.820 --> 00:22:05.900 Everybody has a, you know, the one thing I love about my job as a psychiatrist is, 00:22:05.900 --> 00:22:09.960 I get to ask people very personal questions and say, hey, tell me about your story. 00:22:10.500 --> 00:22:11.440 Tell me about your life. 00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:19.740 And it's just amazing to hear the different things that, you know, a person will relate to you that helps you understand, you know, how they got to this point now. 00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:26.600 And there's, you know, ups and celebrations and highs and there's downs and hurts and losses and, you know, pain and sorrow. 00:22:27.100 --> 00:22:41.500 And I think if we took time to listen to each other, hear each other's stories to see what life is to, and what it is to walk in that person's life, to wear that person's shoes, you know, and go through their last month or the last week or those kinds. 00:22:41.700 --> 00:22:54.360 It would give us a lot more empathy, a lot more compassion, a lot more appreciation of that person and their story and how to sort of protect it, honor it, dignify it, respect it. 00:22:54.660 --> 00:22:57.820 Just like the good Samaritan, he didn't really ask the guy, you know, questions. 00:22:58.120 --> 00:23:00.680 He said, wow, this person needs help and I'm going to jump in. 00:23:00.820 --> 00:23:02.480 You know, maybe he did a stupid thing. 00:23:02.580 --> 00:23:06.100 Maybe he was an alcoholic and he got trashed and he's on the wrong road or whatever. 00:23:06.340 --> 00:23:07.420 He didn't do any of that. 00:23:07.500 --> 00:23:08.740 He says, boy, this person needs help. 00:23:08.920 --> 00:23:10.620 How do I jump in and help this person? 00:23:10.620 --> 00:23:21.400 I think, you know, if we had that kind of attitude, just assuming that a person, you know, is struggling and they need our help, God wants us to, you know, there's the story of Lazarus. 00:23:21.520 --> 00:23:23.020 You know, Lazarus is dying. 00:23:23.420 --> 00:23:25.000 You know, they send out messengers to Jesus. 00:23:25.140 --> 00:23:27.180 Say, hey, your buddies, you know, you might die. 00:23:27.260 --> 00:23:27.860 We need your help. 00:23:27.900 --> 00:23:29.720 He's like, boy, I got stuff to do. 00:23:29.800 --> 00:23:30.740 I'm not going to make it. 00:23:31.560 --> 00:23:32.620 Jesus gets back late. 00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:34.020 Lazarus is dead for four days. 00:23:35.400 --> 00:23:39.720 You know, Jesus is sad that I think the people just don't get it of who he really is. 00:23:40.620 --> 00:23:41.960 He says, roll back the stone. 00:23:42.040 --> 00:23:42.960 They roll back the stone. 00:23:43.300 --> 00:23:44.840 He says, Lazarus, rise and come forth. 00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:46.560 Lazarus rises and come forth. 00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:51.900 The next thing Jesus says to the people next to Lazarus is, hey, unbind him. 00:23:52.260 --> 00:23:56.080 Because Lazarus had these death wrappings around his face, around his body. 00:23:56.160 --> 00:24:00.820 They interfered with his perspective, his vision, interfered with his movement, his walk, his freedom. 00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:03.160 He didn't say, hey, Lazarus, unbind yourself. 00:24:03.500 --> 00:24:06.300 He told the people next to him, hey, unbind him. 00:24:06.680 --> 00:24:08.180 And we all have death wrappings. 00:24:08.180 --> 00:24:11.720 We all have psychological, I call it psychological baggage, right, is what we call it. 00:24:11.740 --> 00:24:15.700 But we all have those death wrappings that, you know, none of us got a brain transplant. 00:24:15.840 --> 00:24:16.600 We become saved. 00:24:16.920 --> 00:24:19.820 Our sin slate is washed clean, but our memory banks aren't washed clean. 00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:23.480 So we've got all that stuff that we've come into this Christian walk with. 00:24:23.580 --> 00:24:26.400 And we need help with those death wrappings, you know, unbinding. 00:24:26.900 --> 00:24:31.600 And I think we need to look at all of us, that we all have death wrappings, and we all need help unbinding. 00:24:31.720 --> 00:24:33.100 And that's why we need to come alongside. 00:24:33.280 --> 00:24:42.340 And God has put us in, he's built us for relationship, and he's put us in these different sized communities so that we can help unbind each other and help get unbound by others. 00:24:42.560 --> 00:24:48.280 So we all need help unbinding ourselves, and we all need to give some help to others in their unbinding process. 00:24:48.840 --> 00:24:54.940 Yeah, I'm going to flip it on you just a little bit, because you said in your daily life, you ask people their stories. 00:24:55.380 --> 00:24:57.120 I want to ask your story just a little bit. 00:24:57.220 --> 00:25:00.000 But really, like, what was that turning point for you? 00:25:00.080 --> 00:25:04.440 Like, what was that moment that you started to see a shift and a change? 00:25:05.180 --> 00:25:05.440 Yeah. 00:25:06.440 --> 00:25:13.440 So I grew up, and ever since I was five years old, I've always wanted to help people with decision-making. 00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:15.780 God laid that on my heart at a very young age. 00:25:16.300 --> 00:25:20.160 But as a young kid, at four, I started school, started kindergarten. 00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:25.140 I was a pretty good reader, so I went to a third-grade class to read as a kindergartner. 00:25:25.820 --> 00:25:29.760 But I had a terrible stutter, a really difficult time stuttering. 00:25:30.420 --> 00:25:31.740 And so people would make fun of me. 00:25:31.860 --> 00:25:32.820 They'd call me names. 00:25:32.900 --> 00:25:34.860 They'd hit me on the back of the head to get the words out. 00:25:35.480 --> 00:25:40.740 And so as a stutterer, you're in your head a lot because you're trying to figure out, well, what words can I start a sentence with so I don't stammer? 00:25:40.800 --> 00:25:45.100 Once I got on a roll, I could speak pretty decently, but it was just getting those first words out. 00:25:45.160 --> 00:25:46.160 So you're in your head a lot. 00:25:46.540 --> 00:25:48.400 We moved around a lot when I was a kid. 00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:56.040 And so, you know, you move into a place, and you're trying to get into that inner circle, but then you move, and you lose those friendships. 00:25:56.200 --> 00:25:59.320 And then you move into another one and leave, move into another one. 00:25:59.420 --> 00:26:02.300 So at a point, you start, well, why do I even make friends? 00:26:02.320 --> 00:26:03.100 I'm just going to leave them. 00:26:03.620 --> 00:26:07.340 So I became more isolated, withdrawn, had some anxiety, had some depression. 00:26:07.940 --> 00:26:13.520 I was really good in sports, so I did things on a national level, like age 12, 13, national TV and stuff. 00:26:13.560 --> 00:26:18.860 And so I was able to get into some of that circle of my male peers, but I wasn't able to get into that inner circle. 00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:20.940 And that really aided me, that process. 00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:31.740 And so to try to fit in, to try to, you know, be liked, to be admired and accepted by my peer group, got into a lot of inappropriate behaviors and alcohol being one of them. 00:26:31.740 --> 00:26:33.800 I ended up drinking more and more and more. 00:26:33.980 --> 00:26:37.020 I ended up losing an Air Force ROTC scholarship at Duke. 00:26:37.120 --> 00:26:38.760 I ended up losing a baseball scholarship. 00:26:39.460 --> 00:26:41.220 I played baseball in college. 00:26:41.940 --> 00:26:49.820 I got caught cheating on an engineering exam in college and got put on academic probation and almost kicked out of school, almost flunked out of school. 00:26:50.840 --> 00:26:56.640 I'm a really good test taker, so I did well on the MCATs to get into medical school, but I didn't get into any school. 00:26:56.960 --> 00:26:59.120 My home school in New Jersey got put on the waiting list. 00:26:59.760 --> 00:27:02.380 And a couple days before the semester started, I get this call. 00:27:02.940 --> 00:27:06.020 And the registrar's office called, and she goes, Carl, it's a miracle. 00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:07.320 I'm like, what do you mean it's a miracle? 00:27:07.420 --> 00:27:11.700 And she goes, well, we've never gotten this low on the waiting list before, but we've got to your number. 00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:12.980 Do you still want to come? 00:27:13.260 --> 00:27:14.220 I was like, yeah, I want to come. 00:27:14.280 --> 00:27:14.960 Well, can you afford it? 00:27:14.980 --> 00:27:19.560 I was like, well, just hook me up with your, you know, your student loan office and I'll get the money. 00:27:19.860 --> 00:27:21.060 So I go into medical school. 00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:25.880 And in my head, I'm thinking, wow, all those things I'm doing got me to where I want to go. 00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:27.660 So I can just continue doing them. 00:27:27.720 --> 00:27:38.500 So I continued drinking, anger, fights, inappropriate behaviors in other areas too, and ended up getting arrested for six counts of aggravated assault and felony charges in jail. 00:27:38.860 --> 00:27:48.320 And it was at that time in jail, this is the big turning point that Jesus said to me, Carl, you made me your savior when you were a little kid, but you never made me the Lord of your life. 00:27:48.840 --> 00:27:49.360 And I did. 00:27:49.360 --> 00:27:54.720 I answered, you know, altar calls, you know, I don't know, bazillion, who wants to burn in hell forever, right, when you're raised in the church. 00:27:55.540 --> 00:27:57.160 But you never made me the Lord of your life. 00:27:57.380 --> 00:28:01.440 He says, if you make me the Lord of your life, I'm going to teach you things about decision making, which is what I was studying. 00:28:01.580 --> 00:28:03.420 I was always enamored with decision making. 00:28:03.760 --> 00:28:10.600 I'm going to teach you things about decision making that are going to allow you to renew your mind, transform your life, and help you transform other people's lives as well. 00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:13.520 And when I heard Lord, I heard authority. 00:28:13.860 --> 00:28:15.580 When I heard authority, I heard author. 00:28:15.980 --> 00:28:22.960 And when I heard author, I realized that I had always thought I was the most qualified person to write the book. 00:28:23.280 --> 00:28:26.140 How does Carl get the most out of life instruction manual? 00:28:26.620 --> 00:28:28.580 I love me more than anybody else loved me. 00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:29.320 I cared for me. 00:28:29.400 --> 00:28:30.240 I knew my mistakes. 00:28:30.320 --> 00:28:31.120 I knew my weaknesses. 00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:32.460 I knew my desires. 00:28:32.580 --> 00:28:35.460 I knew what I wanted out of my future better than anybody else. 00:28:35.460 --> 00:28:37.560 So I'm obviously the one who's most qualified. 00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:40.960 And as I would sort of follow that instruction manual, boy, that chapter didn't work. 00:28:41.020 --> 00:28:41.620 I'd rip it out. 00:28:41.840 --> 00:28:42.340 Write another one. 00:28:42.440 --> 00:28:43.100 No, it didn't work. 00:28:43.100 --> 00:28:43.600 Rip it out. 00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:44.160 Write another one. 00:28:44.700 --> 00:28:52.840 And when I heard Lord, authority, author, I realized the second big turning point was God is the most qualified person to write. 00:28:53.280 --> 00:28:55.460 What does Carl get the most out of life instruction manual? 00:28:55.740 --> 00:28:56.220 And he did. 00:28:56.600 --> 00:28:57.880 The B-I-B-L-E. 00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:01.160 The best instruction book for living every day. 00:29:01.740 --> 00:29:08.060 And so as I saw that, wow, if I want to be better at decision making, who's the perfect decision maker? 00:29:08.200 --> 00:29:08.440 Jesus. 00:29:08.680 --> 00:29:09.960 So I got into the Gospels. 00:29:10.040 --> 00:29:12.060 I started studying Jesus' decision making. 00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:20.120 And it was about a two or three year process of me sort of digging out, sort of was in therapy, getting out of jail, sort of getting my life back in order. 00:29:20.280 --> 00:29:24.480 God brought a great woman into my life that, you know, loved me unconditionally, forgave me. 00:29:24.620 --> 00:29:37.820 And I was able to sort of see myself and see how God saw me in a different way and how God sort of related me, not as sort of that angry, judgmental, demeaning God, but somebody who was just loving, caring, always pursuing me, sort of like my wife was. 00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:47.840 And gave me three, you know, wonderful daughters that sort of brought out a softer side instead of my angry, growing up in that Italian sort of household, you know, an angry background. 00:29:48.360 --> 00:29:51.120 And my life has been amazing ever since that. 00:29:51.140 --> 00:29:56.340 But those were the two main turning points, making him the Lord of my life, which, you know, I'm obviously still struggling with that. 00:29:56.380 --> 00:29:59.300 I'm not perfect at that, but I do it way better than I used to do. 00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:01.900 And really looking at the Bible as that instruction manual. 00:30:01.900 --> 00:30:08.320 And that's what we try to teach patients through my practice in Honey Lake Clinic, how to really engage that relationship with God. 00:30:08.620 --> 00:30:13.320 Seeing him as the Lord, but a Lord that's a loving, compassionate, pursuing, forgiving the Lord. 00:30:13.680 --> 00:30:15.040 And then he's got the instruction manual. 00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:27.820 How do we, you know, as I work with people that struggle with addictions, that big step of humility, how do you, are you ready to decide that your way isn't working, your instruction manual isn't working, 00:30:27.820 --> 00:30:37.300 you're not the one who's best qualified to write the instruction manual of how do you get the most out of life, that here's this book that has been, you know, proven over the, over the centuries. 00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:49.960 But even our science now shows that these principles in the Bible actually change brain chemistry, allow us to psychologically and spiritually grow to lead, you know, free, abundant, healthy, flourishing lives. 00:30:50.280 --> 00:30:58.360 And in the healing process, you know, what has been amazing for me is to see what Satan intended for evil, right? 00:30:58.400 --> 00:31:04.840 All those mistakes I made, those stupid things that I did, you know, the addictions that I had, the many people that I had hurt, hurt that I had absorbed. 00:31:05.400 --> 00:31:14.560 You know, God has been able to turn that around, not only to help in my healing process, but for that to be an agent in other people's healing. 00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:24.620 And I think people that are struggling, you know, with whatever it is, depression, anxiety, you know, we're talking about addiction here, as you're struggling with addiction, there's underlying issues. 00:31:24.940 --> 00:31:33.160 But as you come to freedom in your addiction, which I believe cure is possible, not just in our secular world where, hey, this is something you have to live with for the rest of your life. 00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:37.120 I do think full transformation is available to us in this lifetime. 00:31:37.480 --> 00:31:47.260 But that's the superpower that Satan wants to keep sidelined, that superpower, that story, we're talking about stories, that healing, that comfort that you've been given. 00:31:47.800 --> 00:32:02.460 Now you're going to be able to utilize that to help other people that see their story in you, that hear you when you talk about, you say, wow, I was arrested too, or wow, I had this problem too, or wow, I got abused too, or wow, that person can understand. 00:32:02.460 --> 00:32:09.320 He can empathize with me, he can be compassionate, he can understand why I think the way I do, or why I make the mistakes I make. 00:32:09.840 --> 00:32:18.480 And so many times people that have struggled, you know, they've come through their struggle, but they're ashamed of that struggle, so they don't want to share it with anybody else. 00:32:18.840 --> 00:32:22.360 But through our pain comes our purpose, right? 00:32:22.440 --> 00:32:31.080 And so, you know, in that pain, as we are able to engage it and see God bring healing into that very difficult space, that's where we start to find, 00:32:31.520 --> 00:32:33.960 maybe here there's some purpose for that pain. 00:32:33.960 --> 00:32:40.220 And here's how God wants to use that, not only in my healing and growth process, but some of the people he's going to bring into my life. 00:32:40.600 --> 00:32:43.320 That story is going to be impactful and powerful. 00:32:43.460 --> 00:32:48.140 And my superpower, I get to unleash to be able to be salt and light in other people's lives as well. 00:32:48.400 --> 00:32:52.200 And whenever I see patients start to get to that end, where not only are they getting healing, 00:32:52.260 --> 00:33:02.740 but they're also being a catalyst for other people's healings, their eyes light up and they just are so bright and so empowered in that process and so engaged by the Holy Spirit to just continue to walk in that power. 00:33:02.740 --> 00:33:03.360 I love that. 00:33:03.500 --> 00:33:12.780 I love the idea of people being a catalyst and helping others and using their experiences to minister and to help others that are struggling with that. 00:33:12.780 --> 00:33:19.800 A lot of the people that we work with, Dr. Carl, are bivocational ministers. 00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:30.500 We're talking not seminary trained college graduates or even, not even that, but it's people, just Jimmy Bob, normal people. 00:33:30.600 --> 00:33:34.380 We call them normies that are doing ministry and empowering them to do that. 00:33:34.380 --> 00:33:45.140 So here's my question, because, you know, there's, I've had experiences where people jump in, you know, and dealing with addictions and we're having conversations. 00:33:45.360 --> 00:33:52.780 Another episode coming up is like dealing with people that are going through suicidal seasons and crisis, you know, seasons and things like that. 00:33:53.020 --> 00:33:58.340 And so there are people that are very deep into, yes, I want to help these people. 00:33:58.700 --> 00:34:03.640 And then there are also that are, there are people that are, well, that's the job of the pastor. 00:34:03.860 --> 00:34:07.220 Let me get you connected to a pastor for that. 00:34:07.620 --> 00:34:15.220 In your opinion, what can a normie, a normal person, like what level can they do? 00:34:15.340 --> 00:34:18.620 What level should they hand off to a pastor, to a professional? 00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:24.320 Like what, what level are they getting involved versus triage to hand off to somebody else? 00:34:24.340 --> 00:34:27.840 Like what's, what's a good role that maybe we could operate off of? 00:34:27.840 --> 00:34:29.780 Jeff, that's a great, great question. 00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:36.740 And, you know, so many times we see it as, you know, very binary, either I'm involved or I'm not. 00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:38.200 And somebody else is involved. 00:34:38.460 --> 00:34:43.740 And I like to look at it more as, hey, we're a team coming together to act as a team. 00:34:43.900 --> 00:34:55.560 So even though somebody needs to be bumped up to me, you know, the, the clinical expert psychiatrist, I don't want the other people to fall out of their life and say, oh, well, it's, you know, it's past my pay grade. 00:34:55.600 --> 00:34:57.160 I'm just going to pass it off to the psychiatrist. 00:34:57.540 --> 00:35:06.060 We need those people in, you know, that ministry that they're volunteering with, like, you know, in that ballet ministry or the hospitality ministry. 00:35:06.700 --> 00:35:19.260 If they're in that home fellowship, whether online or, you know, in, in a, you know, bricks and mortar home kind of thing, you know, that these at home fellowship, rubbing shoulders with them, encouraging them, bring a prayer partner with them. 00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:31.480 If there's people in the church that are having an addiction ministry, and so they have a little bit more understanding and they're getting peer support and there's a facilitator of some kind of curriculum, you know, in that meeting, I want that person to be involved. 00:35:31.660 --> 00:35:34.020 If there's a therapist, I want that person to be involved. 00:35:34.100 --> 00:35:40.160 If there's a marriage therapist working on how do we reconcile this marriage and we help them understand and start to reconnect with each other. 00:35:40.280 --> 00:35:45.140 So it's not just, hey, we're just going to pass it off in this very sort of linear, it's just one at a time. 00:35:45.140 --> 00:35:50.700 But, hey, hopefully we're all coming together to help this person unbind, you know, as a team. 00:35:51.620 --> 00:35:57.960 And so to be able to have that kind of mentality and then to figure out, well, what is my role based on my involvement with this person? 00:35:58.500 --> 00:36:06.060 You know, a good friend, David Hager, who's an OB-GYN, I do a lot of work and focus on the family with a bunch of physicians, and he's one of them. 00:36:06.060 --> 00:36:17.040 And he wrote a book called On the Way with the idea that, you know, Jesus is usually going to a destination where he has a game plan and ministry is going to happen at that destination. 00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:26.420 But often in the passage, it says, well, on the way, so-and-so comes up to him, the bleeding woman or the blind man or the lame person, and he's doing ministry there. 00:36:26.420 --> 00:36:37.400 So wherever we're at in our life, there's going to be on-the-way stuff that God is going to bring into our life that we're going to need to do, that we're called upon to do, that we're going to be a good Samaritan in some way. 00:36:37.900 --> 00:36:48.120 And so, first of all, just to embark on your own healing journey so that you have some inner sense of, you know, who God is, who you are. 00:36:48.320 --> 00:36:54.080 How can you continue to have an understanding of, well, where am I on that psychological maturity scale? 00:36:54.180 --> 00:36:56.180 Am I a 2 out of 10? Am I a 3 out of 10? 00:36:56.240 --> 00:37:03.860 Well, I want to continue to move my needle because God is going to bring people into my life, and he's going to want to use me to be able to speak into these people's lives. 00:37:03.860 --> 00:37:18.480 And the better I can to be able to respect, you know, somebody, to honor their story, to listen, to ask questions, to be curious, not in a nosy, gossipy way, but in a compassionate, empathic way. 00:37:19.240 --> 00:37:21.220 Hey, you know, I'm here with you. 00:37:21.340 --> 00:37:22.680 I want to help you. 00:37:22.940 --> 00:37:24.020 You know, what do you need? 00:37:24.200 --> 00:37:25.720 And if I can supply that, great. 00:37:25.720 --> 00:37:33.180 And if I can't supply that, hey, let me help you find the person in our church or our community who can supply, you know, for that need. 00:37:33.400 --> 00:37:39.320 And let me, if I have to drive you to that appointment, if you need a, you know, a dinner to be brought over for the kids so you can get to that appointment. 00:37:39.480 --> 00:37:41.340 You know, whatever that is, we all have skills. 00:37:41.420 --> 00:37:44.340 Our care team in our church has about 70 different people in it. 00:37:44.520 --> 00:37:45.540 We have psychiatrists. 00:37:45.620 --> 00:37:46.280 We have nurses. 00:37:46.520 --> 00:37:49.020 We have, you know, various different levels of skills. 00:37:49.140 --> 00:37:51.960 But a lot of them are normies, you know, in that process. 00:37:51.960 --> 00:37:57.340 But we've helped them with some, you know, very short kind of programming, with some education, with some in-services. 00:37:57.820 --> 00:38:02.940 But we want to help them in their healing process so they have a heart that's open and that can be led by the people. 00:38:02.940 --> 00:38:13.180 They can be led by the spirit to be able to, whatever that unbinding role that they have in a person's life, how can they sense what that is and to be able to deliver that and to know what their lane is. 00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:14.640 You know, hey, I'm not going to be the psychiatrist. 00:38:14.780 --> 00:38:16.500 I'm not going to be prescribing this guy meds. 00:38:16.540 --> 00:38:18.920 I'm not going to be able to say, hey, that's a withdrawal symptom. 00:38:19.060 --> 00:38:23.580 You need to go, I need to get them to somebody else who has a little bit more understanding of, oh, this person's in withdrawal. 00:38:23.800 --> 00:38:27.400 They need to be able to get to this kind of level of care to be able to help that. 00:38:27.600 --> 00:38:29.460 Is there any, one more question on my side. 00:38:29.460 --> 00:38:37.860 Is there any hesitancy to lean into addictions that are complementary to what you have? 00:38:38.040 --> 00:38:47.900 Like, you know, if I'm dealing with alcohol, I don't want to minister to somebody or help someone that's also going through it because that might be triggering to me. 00:38:47.940 --> 00:38:57.420 Or is it healthier to work with someone that is in a similar area because of the symbiotic, like, relationship of that, being able to pull them out? 00:38:57.880 --> 00:38:59.180 Yeah, that's a great question. 00:39:00.140 --> 00:39:13.040 There, you know, to me, there's, whenever a person has a sexual addiction or pornography addiction, then working with the opposite sex or working in situations that are, that can trigger those, 00:39:13.040 --> 00:39:18.180 because that's probably the most difficult one that you really need to have good boundaries and good lanes to. 00:39:18.600 --> 00:39:28.380 Working with people that struggle with a very similar addiction that either you're currently struggling with or have struggled with in the past and have some freedom and transformation from, 00:39:28.840 --> 00:39:44.120 that usually is a pretty good thing to help keep you an understanding and reduce the complacency that sometimes is easy to creep in that, oh, wow, I've got this thing beat or I have no problem with this. 00:39:44.220 --> 00:39:54.420 Or whenever you see somebody else is struggling with it, it's pretty easy to see, oh, wow, you know, but by the grace of God, I could easily fall back into that and sort of keeps you on your toes a little bit. 00:39:54.520 --> 00:40:12.600 The more you, you know, for me and my personal struggles, the more I preach it, the more I teach it, the more I help patients with it, the easier it is for me to be convicted to apply it, you know, to my life more and say, wow, boy, I'm telling Jeff about this, but that marital issue, I'm struggling with as well. 00:40:12.980 --> 00:40:17.720 I need to, you know, double down with what I'm doing in my marriage a little bit more to be able to address that. 00:40:17.720 --> 00:40:22.820 And it's not good enough for me to just sort of teach it to others, but yet have it be, you know, a broken issue in my life as well. 00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:30.020 So it convicts us to be able to sort of know what some of our blind spots can be as we're sort of helping other people. 00:40:30.460 --> 00:40:33.500 God uses those people to show us what we need to be helped in. 00:40:33.780 --> 00:40:44.620 If it's an area where it could be triggering, the person is probably going to be triggered in other things since there's usually other triggers around other than that person, you know, to be able to trigger them in. 00:40:44.620 --> 00:40:49.960 And so if they're really struggling, they're going to be triggered anyways by other things, not just that particular individual. 00:40:50.280 --> 00:41:04.120 Usually helping somebody is something that allows you to have a little bit more autonomy, some confidence, some empowerment to be able to give you a little bit more victory over what you're, you know, the issues that you're dealing with and struggling with and fighting. 00:41:04.120 --> 00:41:10.640 I think I hear over and over, and we've talked about this a little bit before, how important a support system is. 00:41:11.840 --> 00:41:13.740 I'm sorry, Megan, can I just go back to one thing? 00:41:14.160 --> 00:41:27.660 And so, sorry for interrupting, but so that's why whenever we, so as you talked, Jeff, about that person being triggered and helping, that's why that person doesn't want to stop getting their own therapy, their own treatment, being in their own support. 00:41:28.160 --> 00:41:39.540 Because that's hopefully where they're processing some of those things with that team, with that person, so that they can get feedback of, hey, maybe you're getting too close, or maybe that is hitting home, or maybe that is a little bit triggering for you, right? 00:41:39.620 --> 00:41:41.380 They're not unbinding themselves. 00:41:42.060 --> 00:41:49.740 Hopefully, they're helping unbind some people, but then they're also, you know, getting unbinding from others in their life, so we don't want them to stop. 00:41:49.840 --> 00:41:51.600 Okay, now I've graduated to helping others. 00:41:51.740 --> 00:41:53.020 I don't need any help anymore. 00:41:53.380 --> 00:41:56.120 And I'm distancing myself from all those supports. 00:41:56.220 --> 00:42:04.940 We want to keep those supports in our life, and those are the kind of things you want to be able to continue to express to them and talk to them about, so they can, you know, help you be on guard for those kind of situations. 00:42:04.940 --> 00:42:07.540 So, sorry, I just wanted to, you know, make that clear, too. 00:42:08.080 --> 00:42:11.520 No, I think that kind of answered a little bit what I was going to ask anyways. 00:42:11.600 --> 00:42:17.020 It's just, like, making sure we keep a support system around us, and that's going to include, like, professionals. 00:42:17.020 --> 00:42:24.180 That can include, you know, family-trusted friends, those safe people in your life, but you've got to have those built around you. 00:42:24.180 --> 00:42:33.160 And so I think if somebody's struggling, like, find those people, find those people to come around you to help support you in this. 00:42:33.680 --> 00:42:41.100 Yeah, one thing I always give my patients as a homework assignment is to develop their board of directors, I call it. 00:42:41.320 --> 00:42:48.400 So just like, you know, every corporation, you know, wants to do great things, and they have a president, but then they also have a board of directors. 00:42:48.400 --> 00:42:50.900 That board of directors serves a key role. 00:42:51.340 --> 00:42:53.580 It evaluates the CEO. 00:42:54.380 --> 00:42:57.660 It corrects. 00:42:57.980 --> 00:42:59.080 It gives guidance. 00:42:59.220 --> 00:43:00.100 It gives advice. 00:43:00.300 --> 00:43:01.200 It cheerleads. 00:43:01.320 --> 00:43:02.080 It consoles. 00:43:02.860 --> 00:43:11.060 It allows for that CEO or president to express themselves or to problem-solve, to think out loud, to run things by. 00:43:11.680 --> 00:43:19.940 And so, you know, I'm president of corporation Carl Benzio, but if I don't have a board of directors, I'm not going to get very far as a corporation. 00:43:20.780 --> 00:43:28.040 So, you know, we're really good at getting board members that are, you know, I have a dentist because I'm not going to pull my own teeth. 00:43:28.180 --> 00:43:33.480 So I have a dentist that has dental expertise, you know, I have an accountant because I don't want to run afoul of any tax law. 00:43:33.640 --> 00:43:36.180 So I have an accountant that I, you know, that does my taxes. 00:43:36.180 --> 00:43:44.200 So in some of these external things, we're really good at, you know, I got a landscaper that comes and, you know, seeds and plants and does those kind of things, and my grass looks crappy. 00:43:44.520 --> 00:43:47.000 I don't do that on myself because I have no idea what the heck I'm doing. 00:43:47.480 --> 00:43:56.520 But in our inner space, in our personal life, we're usually not very good at figuring out, well, who's going to be on my board that give me that expertise? 00:43:57.040 --> 00:43:59.240 You know, we don't want 10 psychiatrists on our board. 00:43:59.320 --> 00:44:03.260 No corporation would run very well if they had just 10 psychiatrists on the board and nobody else. 00:44:03.460 --> 00:44:11.400 So we'd like to pick different expertises and different skill sets to be on that board to round out all the different expertises that are needed for that corporation to move forward. 00:44:11.480 --> 00:44:19.760 So to have a marriage expert on your board of directors, you know, somebody that you know that is a trusted person in your life that, wow, they have a great track record. 00:44:19.860 --> 00:44:20.820 Their marriage is awesome. 00:44:20.900 --> 00:44:26.140 They seem to understand how to make marriage work, how to communicate, how to forgive each other, how to connect. 00:44:26.520 --> 00:44:27.880 I want that person on my board. 00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:30.560 They have a good track record and they can speak into my life merits. 00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:37.420 I want a parenting, somebody who has a good, you know, they've raised their kids and they've, boy, they've been through some trials and tribulations, parenting. 00:44:37.740 --> 00:44:39.800 They've been able to navigate those really well. 00:44:39.800 --> 00:44:41.380 They have expertise in that area. 00:44:41.740 --> 00:44:43.980 I want somebody who's been able to navigate addiction. 00:44:44.240 --> 00:44:51.540 I want somebody who's been able to manage, you know, anger and emotional, you know, ups and downs or manage pain or manage their finances. 00:44:51.800 --> 00:44:54.480 So we want all these different, you know, board members. 00:44:54.740 --> 00:44:57.320 But then we need to be open and transparent with them. 00:44:57.420 --> 00:44:59.580 And we don't want to pick board members that are just yes people. 00:44:59.800 --> 00:45:01.860 They're going to tell me just what I want to hear, right? 00:45:01.980 --> 00:45:07.460 We want people that are going to be honest with us, that are willing to tell us the good things that we're doing, cheerlead with us, 00:45:07.460 --> 00:45:14.840 but also the things we're not doing well, how to be able to communicate that in a compassionate, caring, I love you, I care for you. 00:45:14.880 --> 00:45:21.760 But, boy, hey, there's something I noticed that I'm curious as to why you're doing this or why you're making that decision or why you're falling into that struggle again. 00:45:22.020 --> 00:45:22.820 Let's talk that over. 00:45:22.900 --> 00:45:24.580 Let's try to problem solve and that. 00:45:24.780 --> 00:45:26.460 So you have board members that are able to do that. 00:45:26.720 --> 00:45:28.220 That's what that support system. 00:45:28.360 --> 00:45:30.180 Again, Lazarus, we need unbinding. 00:45:30.320 --> 00:45:31.240 So we need those people. 00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:38.040 Ideally, we have people with various expertises that can come speak into us that we don't have sort of the blind leading the blind. 00:45:38.600 --> 00:45:44.180 Obviously, a therapist, you know, a support group that is, you know, whether it's a Celebrate Recovery, 00:45:44.740 --> 00:45:51.580 whether it's a Recovery Alive, whether it's Overcomers in Christ, there's a whole bunch of different, you know, support groups out there for people with addiction. 00:45:51.960 --> 00:45:58.440 And most of them aren't just for addiction, but really look at the idea that, hey, we're all in a recovery process. 00:45:58.840 --> 00:46:05.920 We're all trying to recover from sin in our life, from, you know, those idols of our heart that we pursue. 00:46:06.040 --> 00:46:08.540 So we're all in this psycho-spiritual journey. 00:46:08.940 --> 00:46:16.200 And so most of those Celebrate Recovery, even though they get pigeonholed as addiction support groups, they do much more than just addictions. 00:46:16.320 --> 00:46:22.420 They really reach into that deeper, well, what are my psychological and spiritual struggles that then lead to an addiction, 00:46:22.420 --> 00:46:29.680 lead to me self-medicating with power, control, pornography, you know, scrolling through my, you know, screens over and over, 00:46:29.740 --> 00:46:35.560 looking for affirmation, how many likes did I get, or, boy, my life is terrible compared to this person who's always in Aruba 00:46:35.560 --> 00:46:39.700 and doing this and doing that and has a great hat every week and blah, blah, blah. 00:46:40.040 --> 00:46:45.800 You know, so those are the kind of things that we're trying to, you know, navigate and to find those supports in various different areas from. 00:46:46.200 --> 00:46:49.800 And they don't have to be the expert, like I have to go to a parenting therapist, 00:46:49.800 --> 00:46:54.540 but I just need to look at somebody in my life who has a nice track record of being a good parent, 00:46:54.980 --> 00:46:59.200 a nice track record of a healthy marriage to say, hey, would you be willing to speak into, 00:46:59.260 --> 00:47:02.440 I really admire what you've had and what you've built and how you go about things. 00:47:02.720 --> 00:47:05.760 Would you be willing to speak into my life in some way that if we meet for lunch, 00:47:05.820 --> 00:47:09.760 maybe twice a month kind of thing that I can share with you some of the struggles that I might have. 00:47:09.900 --> 00:47:10.740 Are you open to that? 00:47:10.740 --> 00:47:16.440 And you'd be amazed at how many people are willing to help out people that are struggling and give the comfort they've been given. 00:47:16.840 --> 00:47:18.580 And again, you know, pay it forward kind of thing. 00:47:19.800 --> 00:47:20.600 I love that. 00:47:20.740 --> 00:47:23.220 And that's, you know, even in my own life, I've done things like that. 00:47:23.260 --> 00:47:25.280 I never considered it a board of directors. 00:47:25.280 --> 00:47:32.260 And it's funny, like that, that actually really resonates with me because I understand that framework very well. 00:47:32.880 --> 00:47:43.480 But, you know, there are guys where, I mean, literally I've got three guys and my goal is to sit down with them once a month and to have a face-to-face conversation either in group or individual. 00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:54.640 But, you know, my goal is to have a face-to-face conversation where we, you know, we dig into that and hold each other accountable and have those hard conversations together and addictions. 00:47:55.160 --> 00:47:56.360 And, you know, it's interesting. 00:47:56.360 --> 00:48:05.840 There's a side conversation going on in Twitch, in the Twitch chat right now centered around the difference between addictions and vices. 00:48:07.100 --> 00:48:15.000 You know, and they, the thought was that vices is more like a coffee addiction or something that was a little more harmless. 00:48:16.060 --> 00:48:19.380 Miami vice resonates in me and I'm thinking Don Johnson and Coke. 00:48:19.620 --> 00:48:26.340 So, you know, what is, like, I just, being here in Miami, of course, that's where I go, Crockett and Tubbs all the way. 00:48:26.500 --> 00:48:34.660 But tell me, like, what, is there a difference between addictions and vice and even, you know, simple stuff like a coffee addiction? 00:48:34.820 --> 00:48:36.780 Like, is this something that we need to be worried about? 00:48:36.900 --> 00:48:38.840 Like, give us some inside tips here. 00:48:39.420 --> 00:48:42.540 Oh, man, you like, you know, pricked a little thing in me, man, with caffeine. 00:48:42.680 --> 00:48:45.340 Caffeine, I am a, I hate caffeine. 00:48:45.340 --> 00:48:53.440 Honey Lake Clinic, we are a caffeine-free facility, but now they allow the patients one cup of coffee a day and, like, it pains me. 00:48:54.060 --> 00:48:57.600 You know, caffeine is the most common chemical addiction in the world. 00:48:58.800 --> 00:49:03.760 Even kids as young as, you know, four, five, six years old addicted to caffeine. 00:49:04.680 --> 00:49:06.200 Caffeine messes with your brain. 00:49:06.400 --> 00:49:12.540 It increases agitation, lowers frustration tolerance, increases irritability, it causes more stress. 00:49:12.920 --> 00:49:14.920 It decreases the blood flow to the brain. 00:49:14.980 --> 00:49:17.700 So, over time, it worsens things in our brain. 00:49:17.700 --> 00:49:24.400 But it's amazing that, you know, you would think the two places that addictions should not be happening would be work and church. 00:49:24.700 --> 00:49:27.020 And those are the two places we give it away for free. 00:49:27.240 --> 00:49:29.260 We give caffeine away for free, right? 00:49:29.640 --> 00:49:39.860 So, advice, to me, advice or bad habit is something where it only takes mild to moderate effort to cut down. 00:49:39.860 --> 00:49:41.920 So, if you really had to, you could. 00:49:42.300 --> 00:49:53.360 And it doesn't have as much deleterious, impactful consequences, at least up front, as, you know, some of the other addiction objects that we look at. 00:49:53.760 --> 00:50:00.900 But just like work, you know, work is a significant addiction that a lot of guys have, especially, or addiction to productivity. 00:50:01.380 --> 00:50:02.940 And initially, it doesn't start out that bad. 00:50:03.200 --> 00:50:03.760 It's a vice. 00:50:03.860 --> 00:50:04.720 Oh, that guy stays late. 00:50:04.860 --> 00:50:05.680 He works, you know. 00:50:05.820 --> 00:50:16.180 But, boy, the ripples it has whenever he's, you know, the kids don't have a dad that's emotionally engaged with them and what that, you know, what that sets them up to, you know, it doesn't curse them for life. 00:50:16.220 --> 00:50:21.260 But, boy, it puts them behind a lot, you know, all the different measures of the outcomes of a person's life. 00:50:21.260 --> 00:50:30.040 The one key thing we always find is, did they have a father male figure that was home and emotionally involved with them in their childhood? 00:50:31.040 --> 00:50:35.920 And so, if a person's a workaholic, we might say, well, that's a vice, that's just a bad habit, that's just sort of the way they're wired. 00:50:36.240 --> 00:50:38.360 But it's not the way they're wired. 00:50:38.760 --> 00:50:39.920 They can change it. 00:50:40.460 --> 00:50:41.780 And it's not just a bad habit. 00:50:41.900 --> 00:50:45.740 It's something that's an addiction that has many other ripples in their life. 00:50:45.740 --> 00:50:51.340 You know, we don't often think of addiction as being caused by a bacteria or a virus. 00:50:51.520 --> 00:51:03.560 But it's amazing how addictions are contagious and they infect the people in our lives that, you know, have to live with that person who has, you know, that addiction. 00:51:04.500 --> 00:51:20.220 So, there's these long-term consequences, you know, to me, short-term would be if I'm engaging with, you know, if I can't get into a church service until I get my cup of coffee and, you know, I'm thinking about worshiping God, but I need to get that. 00:51:20.380 --> 00:51:21.260 That's a problem. 00:51:22.260 --> 00:51:23.160 You know, that's a problem. 00:51:23.200 --> 00:51:26.240 That's not putting God at the center of my universe. 00:51:27.060 --> 00:51:34.460 Somebody told me that the word for glorify and gravity in Greek are very similar, very similar root words. 00:51:34.520 --> 00:51:37.460 I don't know if that's true or not, but I'll go with it for this point. 00:51:38.140 --> 00:51:44.040 So, that thing that we worship, that we glorify, we put at the center of the universe. 00:51:44.220 --> 00:51:52.880 And the center of the universe, the sun, is the thing that, because of its gravitational power, it forms the orbits of everything else. 00:51:52.960 --> 00:51:57.480 It causes the orbits and the rotation of all the other things in that person's life. 00:51:57.920 --> 00:52:01.860 So, I don't, you know, we have a lot of stress in our world. 00:52:02.180 --> 00:52:04.980 There's a lot of chaos, social media, technology. 00:52:06.160 --> 00:52:07.480 The truth is dying. 00:52:07.720 --> 00:52:15.360 People are believing in atrocities and so are believing in absurdities, so they commit atrocities, as Voltaire said many, many centuries ago. 00:52:15.700 --> 00:52:19.140 But I think part of it is we have caffeine on every corner. 00:52:19.340 --> 00:52:27.980 So, we have this addictive process that sort of fuels the pump, fries the dopamine pump that we need to get stimulation all the time. 00:52:27.980 --> 00:52:41.740 And our irritability, our anxiety level, our stress level are increased, I think because, you know, everybody's pumping in so much caffeine that it's, there's some cause and effect of that. 00:52:41.780 --> 00:52:48.880 It's not the only cause, certainly, but anything that we have that's an addictive process makes it easier for us to fall prey to other addictions. 00:52:48.880 --> 00:52:57.140 And, again, that atrophying of those other skills, so, well, if I need coffee to wake me up in the morning, then I don't really need to get a good night's sleep. 00:52:57.380 --> 00:53:06.200 So, now I'm going to let my sleep hygiene decay and I don't need to maybe do as much exercise to keep my weight down because caffeine keeps my weight down. 00:53:06.200 --> 00:53:20.420 And so, there's a lot of other ripples of how that interferes with our development of other better coping skills whenever we use an addiction object to be our, go to our circumstantial stage, you know, that helps us solve that problem in that particular circumstance. 00:53:21.940 --> 00:53:24.620 That hurts on a lot of levels. 00:53:25.140 --> 00:53:34.080 Well, you know, I get a lot of youth pastors that will go in and they're going to talk to these 13, 14-year-olds about porn and porn addiction and porn on the internet and all this stuff. 00:53:34.200 --> 00:53:44.580 But then they have this monster drink or their, you know, their five-hour energy drink and they're saying, well, I'm late because I had to stop and get that because I can't go a day without this. 00:53:44.720 --> 00:53:47.600 This is, you know, but yet they're telling this kid, hey, you got to give up this. 00:53:47.660 --> 00:53:49.920 But then they're showing them, hey, I can't give up this. 00:53:49.960 --> 00:53:53.400 I mean, that's, you know, what a mixed message that is for, you know, a 13-year-old, right? 00:53:54.080 --> 00:53:54.720 Yeah, guilty. 00:53:55.040 --> 00:53:58.000 Let me, literally, my 13, I'm just, I'm going to call myself out here. 00:53:58.420 --> 00:54:01.860 My 13-year-old son has a hard time staying awake in adult church. 00:54:02.200 --> 00:54:06.940 And so he's discovered a Starbucks' dirty chai. 00:54:07.460 --> 00:54:09.840 It's a chai latte with a shot of espresso. 00:54:10.100 --> 00:54:12.100 That shot of espresso keeps them awake for church. 00:54:12.220 --> 00:54:13.360 And so I'm not going to lie. 00:54:13.900 --> 00:54:22.280 It's easier for us to do that and buy that so he gets the, you know, the energy to stay awake for the sermon. 00:54:22.420 --> 00:54:25.140 We have conversations about the sermon afterwards. 00:54:25.500 --> 00:54:32.540 And, you know, and it's as a parent, you know, my wife and I, we fell back on, okay, that's the easiest way to do it. 00:54:32.900 --> 00:54:39.480 We didn't even take into account the addiction, the fact that we're feeding that addiction right now. 00:54:39.840 --> 00:54:45.640 And that he's not developing something else that he needs to, in order to compensate instead. 00:54:45.700 --> 00:54:47.160 And we're complementing that with caffeine. 00:54:47.920 --> 00:54:49.780 My wife and I are both caffeine addicts. 00:54:50.140 --> 00:54:53.660 So, yeah, a lot of our country is, yep. 00:54:54.040 --> 00:54:54.520 That's for sure. 00:54:54.540 --> 00:54:57.200 Well, you know, I mean, the funny, like, we were literally out of college. 00:54:57.320 --> 00:55:03.220 I started at .com and it was ChristianChurchOnline.com, eBeliever.com. 00:55:03.500 --> 00:55:08.160 And we were either going to start an online.com or we were going to start a coffee shop. 00:55:08.280 --> 00:55:10.580 Like one of us, we fought out of college. 00:55:11.200 --> 00:55:12.980 This is before Starbucks was Starbucks. 00:55:13.260 --> 00:55:13.800 We'll do both. 00:55:14.500 --> 00:55:17.320 Yeah, and we fought which one of us was going to get the business. 00:55:17.600 --> 00:55:17.960 And I was. 00:55:18.680 --> 00:55:24.720 But, you know, I love, this has been a very challenging conversation. 00:55:25.380 --> 00:55:31.980 You know, I remember, Megan, I think, oh, come on, all the conversations are running together. 00:55:32.120 --> 00:55:39.960 I don't remember if it was Mindy or who said it, but you are loved only to the level that you are known. 00:55:39.960 --> 00:55:48.780 I think that was a phrase that was said recently either by Mindy or, oh, my gosh, they're all just running together. 00:55:49.140 --> 00:56:05.160 But really, this idea of being known and having others know you, hold you accountable, be transparent with who you are and where you are, you know, this is the idea that's resonating very much. 00:56:05.880 --> 00:56:14.500 Even as we're, you know, doing ministry in those spaces, in these spaces that are addicting, dealing with people that are very open with their addiction. 00:56:14.960 --> 00:56:17.480 You know, we talked about this recently. 00:56:19.480 --> 00:56:23.900 In digital, there's two different ways to do digital ministry, in my opinion. 00:56:24.520 --> 00:56:28.300 And there's the broadcast idea. 00:56:28.800 --> 00:56:35.220 We've got people that are engaging with the outside world, like, you know, church is engaging with the outside world, the one hour on Sunday. 00:56:36.180 --> 00:56:47.840 And that's, and, you know, when we talk about addiction with those people, you know, they don't often see a lot of the addiction or a lot of the mental health challenges or a lot of the suicidal crisis. 00:56:48.260 --> 00:56:55.280 Because, I mean, to be honest, that one hour on Sunday, even online, people have a mask, you know, they're hiding behind it. 00:56:56.040 --> 00:56:59.800 Well, the Christian four-letter F word is fine. 00:57:00.340 --> 00:57:01.180 Hey, how are you doing today? 00:57:01.180 --> 00:57:02.080 Oh, I'm fine. 00:57:02.120 --> 00:57:02.500 How are you? 00:57:02.580 --> 00:57:03.260 Oh, I'm fine, too. 00:57:03.340 --> 00:57:03.780 Okay, good. 00:57:03.900 --> 00:57:05.040 Hey, I'll see you next week, right? 00:57:05.900 --> 00:57:07.440 That's a Christian four-letter F word. 00:57:08.460 --> 00:57:10.800 Dr. Carl, that is tattoo worthy. 00:57:11.440 --> 00:57:14.460 That may actually, that may, I know, there's a running joke on the show. 00:57:16.080 --> 00:57:20.200 You know, is a statement good enough for you to put your name tattooed on my body? 00:57:21.140 --> 00:57:25.280 And the Christian four-letter F word, fine. 00:57:25.680 --> 00:57:26.480 Do you own that? 00:57:26.540 --> 00:57:27.840 Is that you or is that somebody else? 00:57:29.020 --> 00:57:29.660 Is that your thing? 00:57:29.940 --> 00:57:31.560 I've never heard anybody else say it, no. 00:57:32.260 --> 00:57:35.680 Dr. Carl, that is in the running. 00:57:36.520 --> 00:57:41.840 My wife will, of course, say no, so I'll have to sneak out one day and get it when she's not, which may open up some other issues. 00:57:41.920 --> 00:57:44.180 But that's another podcast for a different day. 00:57:44.600 --> 00:57:51.860 That's why I say the opposite of addiction is belonging, because if we're not transparent, right, if we don't open up, if we don't show people who we are, 00:57:52.060 --> 00:57:56.520 and part of that addiction issue is that if they really knew me, they wouldn't like me. 00:57:56.580 --> 00:57:57.580 They wouldn't hang out with me. 00:57:57.620 --> 00:57:59.820 They wouldn't connect with me, and I wouldn't belong. 00:58:00.300 --> 00:58:03.620 So that's what we're trying to do is, well, how do we help people belong? 00:58:04.580 --> 00:58:13.760 So for treating, well, if we put them in prison, well, now we're just sort of continuing to segregate them away and say, boy, you never will belong, right? 00:58:14.040 --> 00:58:21.480 And I'm not saying there shouldn't be consequences when we do inappropriate things, but trying to figure out how we can put that in a context of connection and belonging, 00:58:21.480 --> 00:58:26.500 I think we'd get a lot farther in the process, just like you're saying that transparency, how to be open. 00:58:27.100 --> 00:58:29.560 You're only going to be loved as far as you're going to be able to be open. 00:58:30.880 --> 00:58:31.200 Yeah. 00:58:31.460 --> 00:58:33.640 Look, just to wrap up here. 00:58:33.740 --> 00:58:35.460 Flatcap's asking a question in chat. 00:58:36.160 --> 00:58:40.400 Does FOMO, fear of missing out, play into addictions? 00:58:40.840 --> 00:58:43.480 Like what's the parallel there that you're seeing? 00:58:44.020 --> 00:58:51.500 Yeah, I think there's a, you know, we have this dopamine reward pathway, and we have, we want it to be stimulated. 00:58:51.600 --> 00:58:53.140 We want dopamine to be released. 00:58:53.300 --> 00:59:02.300 Instead of just a slow drip of just little small things that give us a little bit of satisfaction, a smile, a smile on my wife's face. 00:59:02.360 --> 00:59:05.800 Well, there's a little bit of dopamine, but, you know, I want big dopamine drips. 00:59:05.800 --> 00:59:13.860 And so in that, FOMO is, well, I'm going to miss out on a big dopamine drip, I'm going to, you know, or a big dopamine surge kind of thing. 00:59:14.100 --> 00:59:15.600 And I don't want to miss out. 00:59:15.740 --> 00:59:16.740 I need stimulation. 00:59:17.080 --> 00:59:19.100 I need to be in the middle of things. 00:59:19.120 --> 00:59:20.960 I need to be part of, you know, something. 00:59:21.240 --> 00:59:27.700 You know, they're looking for that belonging, but belonging isn't just because you're in something that you didn't miss out on. 00:59:28.040 --> 00:59:32.920 Belonging is really connecting relationally, emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually with somebody. 00:59:32.920 --> 00:59:48.180 You know, I can be in, you know, one-tenth of the activities with my kids that they're involved in, but I can still have really strong connections in a sense of they belong to me and I belong to them and we belong together kind of thing without being involved in every single activity, right? 00:59:48.340 --> 00:59:56.040 And so I think FOMO is that need to artificially feel like you're belonging whenever there's a lot of other better ways to be able to do that. 00:59:56.040 --> 00:59:59.660 And that dopamine surge isn't as necessary. 01:00:00.220 --> 01:00:09.560 We can have a little bit more self-control and a little bit more patience to wait for the drip and understand how the drip works actually better in the long run than episodic surges. 01:00:10.080 --> 01:00:13.820 What is, oh my gosh, I feel like I could go another hour. 01:00:16.740 --> 01:00:23.800 Okay, everything I hear about dopamine is getting it in a negative context. 01:00:24.380 --> 01:00:27.780 Like, you know, you're getting that dopamine hit by the thumb scrolling, doom scrolling. 01:00:27.920 --> 01:00:30.220 You're getting that dopamine hit with pornography. 01:00:31.620 --> 01:00:35.440 Is there a healthy way to get dopamine or is dopamine? 01:00:36.600 --> 01:00:37.480 Like, what is that? 01:00:37.720 --> 01:00:40.640 Tell me a healthy way to get everybody's negative of dopamine. 01:00:40.780 --> 01:00:41.780 Give me a positive way. 01:00:41.980 --> 01:00:44.540 Hey, if you're married, have sex with your spouse. 01:00:44.800 --> 01:00:46.760 You get a great dopamine surges with that. 01:00:47.520 --> 01:00:48.560 Go exercise. 01:00:48.880 --> 01:00:49.320 Exercise. 01:00:49.780 --> 01:00:50.900 Great dopamine surges. 01:00:51.460 --> 01:00:56.200 Just look at a picture of your grandchild or your child smiling at you. 01:00:56.560 --> 01:00:59.380 You know, that's a little, like, again, a dopamine drip. 01:00:59.380 --> 01:01:07.320 Having a dopamine drip that's relatively consistent is a lot better and healthier for you than getting episodic surges of dopamine 01:01:07.320 --> 01:01:12.480 because you're, you know, taking a hit of cocaine or you're looking at pornography or you're masturbating 01:01:12.480 --> 01:01:18.180 or you're stealing something or you're, you know, yeah, you'll get a dopamine surge from some of those kind of things, 01:01:18.260 --> 01:01:26.520 but that's not a healthy, your system wasn't meant to tolerate those kind of episodic surges. 01:01:26.780 --> 01:01:37.280 Your system was really built to take, you know, a sort of a continuous drip by finding joy in all the different things that we do that God brings into our life. 01:01:38.740 --> 01:01:39.340 Very good. 01:01:39.420 --> 01:01:39.820 Very good. 01:01:40.020 --> 01:01:40.200 Yeah. 01:01:40.240 --> 01:01:41.240 So dopamine is a good thing. 01:01:41.300 --> 01:01:41.960 We want dopamine. 01:01:42.100 --> 01:01:42.860 Dopamine is great. 01:01:42.860 --> 01:01:49.160 We just don't want these blasts of dopamine or for a person to be so immune to the little dopamine hits that they get. 01:01:49.720 --> 01:02:01.380 Sometimes our radar is, whenever we get these big dopamine blasts, we have very poor radar for the subtler dopamine bounces that we get, right? 01:02:01.520 --> 01:02:05.200 And so those don't register because, well, that was a two on the dopamine scale. 01:02:05.200 --> 01:02:07.540 I want a, you know, I want a 75. 01:02:08.360 --> 01:02:11.900 If it ain't a 75, anything less than 50 just ain't worth it. 01:02:12.360 --> 01:02:18.880 Well, no, you know, and that's why that tolerance of, you know, well, I need to get back to that original euphoria. 01:02:18.880 --> 01:02:27.760 So we need to use more and more and more and more to be able to get that, you know, that dopamine surge that we initially had when we first used that particular addiction object. 01:02:27.860 --> 01:02:29.260 That's not what we were designed to do. 01:02:29.320 --> 01:02:32.740 That's corrupted chemistry that unfortunately we get trapped in. 01:02:33.320 --> 01:02:36.060 Megan, as we're, as we're wrapping up, is this, is this making sense? 01:02:36.140 --> 01:02:36.820 Where are we at? 01:02:37.600 --> 01:02:38.860 Yeah, no, I think it is. 01:02:38.920 --> 01:02:48.040 I think it's been really good and really informative for people who are maybe are struggling or people who are, you know, working with people who are struggling. 01:02:48.040 --> 01:02:49.520 We're struggling in those areas. 01:02:49.520 --> 01:02:59.300 And I think, like you said, we all can find a little area that we might need to just keep an eye on and make sure that it doesn't go into something that's taking us out of reality, basically. 01:02:59.960 --> 01:03:01.360 So, no, I've loved this. 01:03:01.480 --> 01:03:07.400 Thank you, Dr. Carl, for being a part of this and really just bringing your wealth of knowledge. 01:03:08.120 --> 01:03:14.880 You know, and if your team, if you have questions or there's things that resonate, they want to talk, you know, I'd love to be able to come back. 01:03:15.120 --> 01:03:20.900 I just have my senior team, you know, calling me saying, hey, you know, from Honey Lake Clinic, hey, are you coming to the meeting or not? 01:03:22.900 --> 01:03:24.000 All right. 01:03:24.280 --> 01:03:25.880 So, we're going to wrap up. 01:03:25.940 --> 01:03:26.720 This has been great. 01:03:26.920 --> 01:03:30.240 But, Dr. Carl, thank you very much for the podcast here. 01:03:30.300 --> 01:03:30.960 We're going to let you go. 01:03:31.040 --> 01:03:34.440 But for Dr. Carl, for Megan, this is Jeff with Church Digital. 01:03:34.720 --> 01:03:38.000 Thanks for joining us here on the podcast and we'll see you next time on the show. 01:03:38.200 --> 01:03:38.680 Y'all have a good one.