WEBVTT

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 Asking someone about their thoughts and about their plans is not going to put the idea in their

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 head and then get them to go do it. It's actually going to get it out of their head.

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 They're going to get to now say it out loud. And when something is said out loud,

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 if it's mentionable, it's manageable. So if we can get them to say it out loud,

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 then we can do something about it. Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

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 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church,

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 but more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

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 Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field?

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 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh,

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 and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this?

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 Whether you're a big or small church, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn

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 to be a multiplying church digitally and physically. And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

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 Okay, so we had some issues up front. I want to apologize. It's Jeff here at the Church Digital.

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 We're doing episode 313, I think. We're going out of order with this one, but it's cool.

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 And I just want to publicly acknowledge we're broadcasting this live on Twitch.

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 And I am way out of my league in many different ways. First off, the intelligence of the people in this podcast with this interview,

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 I'm going to step back because I'm just way beyond myself.

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 And I've been miscommunicating a whole bunch of stuff to other people about the Twitch broadcast,

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 and people are showing up at wrong links and forgetting to do things.

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 And if you are a virtual assistant who's bored and looking to volunteer for an organization that's desperate for organizational help,

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 hi, my name's Jeff. We need to talk. So feel free to reach out to me, Jeff, at thechurch.digital.

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 I'll even give you my cell phone. That's how desperate I am, 484-324-8724.

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 Virtual assistants just looking to help out a guy who really could use some help, 484-324-8724.

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 I'd love to talk with you.

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 All right. So, hey, let's get into the conversation here with the Church Digital.

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 We are heading into this conversation. We're still doing this season, Digital Mental Health.

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 We've had so many deep conversations.

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 You know, even sitting here in this chair, I don't think that I could reflect back and list all of the different perspectives

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 as we're digging into, A, doing ministry in this space, and B, protecting ourselves as we're doing ministry in this space.

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 And digital is a very dark area, especially the more that you lean into a digital community.

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 And not just broadcasting one-way communications, but actually listening to the people we're doing ministry with.

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 And so, as we're heading into today's topic, it was, you know, I remember Megan Carter is on here co-hosting the season with us.

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 This was a late topic edition.

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 Like, we had everything set up, and, you know, Megan and I, you know, I think I was like, Megan, we really, we need to hit this topic.

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 We need to get into this because this is a big deal, and it's often missed and ignored.

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 And it gets into the idea of suicide, of suicidal prevention, of dealing with people that are suicidal, of, you know, people overly depressed, depression, people in crisis mode, in crisis situations.

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 You know, I can remember, Megan, I was telling somebody just recently, I was talking about, I guess maybe yesterday in an open office.

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 Like, there was a situation maybe a year ago where we had, this is back in the Digital Church Network days, but we had three churches that were connected to the Digital Church Network that were dealing with people's suicidal situations over the course of a weekend.

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 Like, it was just this massive, all-encompassing, and everybody was talking to each other within the network, trying to figure out what to say and how to handle and who to call and what to, and, you know, in the moment of chaos in the middle of that, I'll be honest, I didn't have a lot of the answers.

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 And so, you know, we worked through the situation as best we could, and as far as I know, everybody, you know, made it through healthily.

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 But it became apparent to me that, you know, we don't necessarily have the answers, and I don't know that there was a healthy situation in that.

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 And so, as we're heading into this episode, you know, almost, I feel like I need to put a disclaimer on here.

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 Like, even as we're having this conversation, we're not, you know, mental health experts on this.

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 And as we're talking about suicide prevention and how to deal with these situations, I mean, there's obviously, there's a lot of risk in this.

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 And we talked about if you're doing digital ministry in these digital communities, you're going to have to get dirty.

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 And as a result of that, it's not clean like Sunday morning church is.

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 And so, know that these are difficult situations, and we're giving advice, not expertise, in how to handle this.

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 And so, what happens in these situations and how they're handled, first and foremost, pray through it and ask God to lead you into it.

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 And then secondly, maybe lean on some of these experiences that we're going to be talking about to help guide you on that way.

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 And so, hopefully that makes sense.

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 We might even lean back on that along the way.

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 But Megan, Megan Carter from Church Anywhere, thank you for jumping on this season with us and leaning in.

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 But let me get into the guest here.

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 We are blessed to have Jeff Vanderstelt on the podcast.

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 I was excited.

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 You know, as soon as we started talking about Megan and I started talking about this topic, Jeff's name just popped in my head.

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 It was like we got to get Jeff Vanderstelt on to talk about this.

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 And once again, the disclaimer, Jeff's not an expert in this.

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 But he is someone who I've had conversations with, who has had, you know, some powerful stories, some powerful experiences, and has dealt with this firsthand.

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 And so, as we're leaning into the idea of ministering to people and dealing with people that are on the brink, I really felt like Jeff was the guy to come in to have this conversation to help us, A, figure out how to do this.

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 And then, you know, Megan and I will probably lean into how to take some of these ideas and apply them into these situations, digital situations.

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 And so, Megan, Jeff, thanks for jumping on here.

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 You know, Jeff, you're with, actually, just even to open up a little bit, you're with Saturate, and that's an incredible thing.

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 And, you know, we were talking earlier about 180 Discipleship and the book of that that I know Exponential has been running with a lot this year.

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 Do you maybe want to just introduce yourself and who you are and just maybe give some background to some of these ideas?

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 Yeah, definitely.

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 Thank you.

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 It's so good to be with you all.

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 I live in Seattle.

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 I have been planting churches for quite some time and helped lead a family of churches called SOMA.

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 But my full-time work now is Saturate, which really exists to help people start and strengthen Jesus-centered movements in cities all around the world

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 and really help the church partner together in all its forms and expressions to do that.

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 I think one of the reasons why I'm on this conversation, which we'll spend more time on, is both personal experience, as you said, Jeff,

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 but also a deep, deep commitment to make sure that our disciple-making strategies include emotional health.

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 And we really understand the significance of attachment to God and people in ways that are transformative.

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 And so this is a really important conversation because I think if we don't get this right,

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 even the kinds of followers of Jesus that we build are going to be incredibly broken in both their own life

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 but also in the way they bring that expression to other people.

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 So when we talk about saturation of a city, Jesus saturating a place, we say you've got to work together in prayer,

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 collaborate on prayer, collaborate on disciple-making, collaborate on health, emotional health, leader health,

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 collaborate on serving the city, and collaborating on starting new kingdom expressions.

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 And the leader, the disciple-making and leader health are almost always the weakest part of every strategy

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 when I walk into a city or to a church that they have underestimated how much they need to work on that.

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 So I'm glad to be here to talk about this with you guys.

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 All right.

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 So we're streaming live at this point with Jeff, who just had a heartfelt interview,

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 you know, an introduction talking into this.

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 If you're watching on Twitch, I finally flipped the switch up.

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 Seriously, it's been a hellacious couple of days.

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 It's been awesome.

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 God's doing some incredible stuff, but it's been drinking from the fire hydrant all day long.

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 And so we're getting into this conversation with Jeff Vanderstelt.

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 If you want to see the introductions, go watch it on demand.

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 That's more fun.

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 But let's lean into this conversation as we're really digging into suicide, depression, crisis mode,

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 and how to do ministry in the space.

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 For those watching online, just a disclaimer, we're not experts in this.

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 And so understand that we're talking about our past experiences towards that.

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 You know, I would encourage you to open every opportunity in prayer as you're heading into these situations

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 and see what God does in the midst of that.

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 Use these conversations as maybe a guide to maybe influence and follow how the Spirit leads.

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 And so Megan, who is the architect, I'm not saying brainchild anymore.

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 I'm saying architect, who is that's much better.

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 Right, Megan?

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 Yeah.

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 Who's really the architect of this.

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 Megan, help us get started here.

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 What do we need to dig into as we're looking at this sensitive topic?

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 No, I've loved this whole mental health series we've been doing.

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 And I just thought about it as you guys were talking is we've talked a lot in the past couple

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 episodes about kind of ourself.

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 Like we talked about the inner critic.

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 We talked about isolation, solitude.

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 You know, we've talked about all these different things.

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 And then now this is like, okay, boots on the ground, whether it's in a physical or digital

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 space.

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 What do we do when there's crisis?

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 What do we, we've like prepared ourselves for this moment.

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 So what do we do?

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 And I think that's a big thing that we'll get into today.

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 And it's, it's a tough one.

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 Like you said, it's not an easy conversation.

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 A lot of these conversations are not easy.

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 I've had to learn how to not like put my own thoughts, kind of just put them aside of

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 like what I thought things, you know, conversations were supposed to be when you're dealing with

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 somebody who is in such a dark place.

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 And I really had to just find ways to have that conversation without feeling like I was

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 going to make something happen.

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 Like if I asked a certain question or if I said something, like if it was going to make

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 something, you know, happen or be, yeah, just go south.

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 And so it's one of those things that you want to prepare yourself as much as you can.

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 And I think this conversation is going to be great for that.

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 I would also just advocate for having other people around you or professionals or, you

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 know, hotlines, all kinds of different things in your back pocket for these type of situations.

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 Um, so just kind of that, another disclaimer on the top of this, but, um, I would love Jeff

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 just to talk, this is getting really confusing cause there's two Jeffs and it's going to, but

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 You call me JV if you want.

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 That makes me varsity and you junior varsity.

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 I'm not, I'm not comfortable with that, man.

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 I was like, I realized that right.

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 As I said, I was like, okay, well, it's all right.

00:12:04.560 --> 00:12:09.160
 No, but, um, I would love to hear just, you talked a little bit about having some personal

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 experiences, um, or maybe just like the connection that is connected to mental health or suicide

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 prevention.

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 Um, I would just love to hear a little bit of that and then let's dive in a little deeper

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 into this topic.

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 Yeah.

00:12:22.620 --> 00:12:23.360
 Well, thank you.

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 Uh, first of all, personally, uh, I've, I went, I've gone through two seasons where I

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 was facing suicidal, suicidal ideation on a, on a regular basis.

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 One was when I was 33 and in a pressure cooker of a job where there was a ton of fear, shame.

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 I would even say spiritual abuse, uh, that I was working under.

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 And, uh, it was like a daily idea that I I'd wake up daily and wonder if it's worth staying,

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 you know, and I had a newborn baby, married, just, you know, seven years at that time or

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 eight years at that time.

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 And, um, but just my wife would basically had to change the bedsheets every, every night,

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 every morning, because I'd sweat through every single night, just overwhelming anxiety and

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 desire to not be around anymore.

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 And thankfully I got help and got counseling and God really helped me walk through that

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 season.

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 And then, uh, about four and a half years ago, I, my best friend, uh, took his life.

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 Um, so he committed suicide and he was like a child in the faith to me, like a Timothy to

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 me, a guy that I lived with me, lived with us.

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 I mentored him, poured into him, handed the church that I've planted over to him to lead

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 in my place.

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 And so when that happened, I went through another journey of my own, uh, wrestling with

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 what, what did I do?

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 How did I fail?

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 How did I get here?

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 And so had to get help again.

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 Um, and that journey was a two year journey of meeting with a, a 10 man coach, which is

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 a great ministry.

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 I recommend, I met with him once a week for 14 months and I was unbelievably transformed by

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 that process.

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 Like I'm now trained as a 10 man coach.

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 I help people in similar spaces, a lot, work with a lot of leaders, not always who are

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 struggling with suicide, but just are hitting a wall or struggling emotionally or haven't

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 been, uh, given the help they need to be emotionally healthy.

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 So that's some of my journey.

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 And that same, about three months after my friend took his life, another friend who used

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 to be, uh, the vice president of a network I was a part of years ago, a church planning

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 network took his life, very public figure.

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 A lot of people would know who he is if I said his name.

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 Um, and so I think for me, I just, I realized, man, we have got to do a far better job of

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 being present with people and caring for people and, uh, helping people when they're in trouble

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 and letting them know it's okay to talk about it.

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 It's okay to go get help.

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 Like you're not alone in this.

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 Lots of people have these struggles.

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 So that's some of my own journey.

00:15:12.880 --> 00:15:13.020
 Yeah.

00:15:13.400 --> 00:15:13.840
 Yeah.

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 No, that's like one of the biggest lies that I think goes through.

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 People's minds is that you're the only person dealing with this.

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 You're the only one that's feeling this way.

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 So you almost feel helpless of not being able to say anything because you're like, well, I

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 don't want to burden them with my struggles.

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 I don't.

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 And this is like, yes, talk to somebody, share that feeling.

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 Um, so what, what, what has been common signs that you've seen?

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 Um, and maybe there's not, maybe there's not a whole lot of signs, but have you seen any

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 or have you noticed maybe kind of a pattern that, um, it takes people down to, to this path

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 of feeling this way and coming so deep into whether it's depression or, or having these

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 suicidal ideations.

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 Yeah.

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 I mean, I, I think, I think there's a few different things to pay attention to.

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 Some is going to be emotional or, and verbal cues that you, you see in people where you'd

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 like, they, they, you can tell that they, they're experiencing a great deal of hopelessness

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 or shame, toxic shame, or a sense of failure.

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 Um, and it shows up in like either verbal or emotional cues.

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 Like, like, like, I don't know if anybody cares about me.

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 What's the point?

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 Why am I even here?

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 Um, you know, so there's, you're going to hear people say things like that.

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 I think those are things, listen to when people talk like they're, like they're not, they

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 don't matter or that no one sees them or that it it's, you know, there's no point in really

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 living.

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 Um, you want to, you want to listen for those cues for sure.

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 And some of them are emotional cues where you just see someone get darker and darker and

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 darker.

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 And, um, in terms of the way they see the world, the way they see themselves, the way they interact.

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 And sometimes it's not obvious because they, they actually, their emotions seem just dead.

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 Like, it's almost like you see them emotionless and that they've so impaired them that they don't

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 feel them anymore.

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 And that often is where depression comes from.

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 I mean, I've depressed my feelings for so long.

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 I don't have them anymore.

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 So pay attention to that.

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 Pay attention to behavioral changes.

00:17:14.820 --> 00:17:21.220
 A lot of times people in this place will begin to withdraw more and more from social activities,

00:17:21.220 --> 00:17:25.180
 from family gatherings, from the previous commitments they made.

00:17:25.540 --> 00:17:28.520
 Um, so their, their behaviors start to change.

00:17:28.520 --> 00:17:33.220
 They, sometimes people even will experience after a period of depression and they almost

00:17:33.220 --> 00:17:34.300
 look super calm.

00:17:35.020 --> 00:17:38.280
 And it's because they've already made the decision that they're going to take their life.

00:17:38.320 --> 00:17:41.200
 So they've settled in their mind, this is going to be over.

00:17:41.460 --> 00:17:45.160
 And so that's a thing to, if you see someone who's been in depression for a long time and

00:17:45.160 --> 00:17:50.240
 all of a sudden incredible calm comes, it's almost like if you've ever been around a tornado,

00:17:50.240 --> 00:17:53.060
 but like, you know, it's windy, windy, windy.

00:17:53.120 --> 00:17:54.640
 And all of a sudden it just stops.

00:17:54.640 --> 00:18:01.460
 Like the trees, it feels like the air got sucked out and then boom, it hits like hard.

00:18:01.600 --> 00:18:04.160
 And I think that you've got to watch that in your friends.

00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:09.440
 Um, the, the, sometimes they'll give away things like they don't care about keeping anything

00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:09.800
 anymore.

00:18:09.800 --> 00:18:11.200
 So they're also purging.

00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:16.460
 Um, sometimes I think that you'll see an increased use of drugs or alcohol as a way of coping.

00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:22.160
 Um, I think you also got to watch for risky behavior, uh, whether it's like excessive spending,

00:18:22.320 --> 00:18:25.200
 dangerous hobbies, just stuff that shows that they don't really care.

00:18:25.760 --> 00:18:27.860
 They're probably leaning into self-destruction.

00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:30.400
 So those are behavioral things you want to pay attention to.

00:18:30.420 --> 00:18:32.620
 And then there's obviously some physical things too.

00:18:32.620 --> 00:18:35.340
 Like they might not sleep much anymore.

00:18:36.080 --> 00:18:41.460
 Uh, there's sudden weight loss or weight gain because their eating habits are changing.

00:18:41.760 --> 00:18:44.940
 Radically, um, they might not even take care of themselves.

00:18:44.940 --> 00:18:48.360
 So their personal hygiene, just kind of let go of that.

00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:53.940
 Um, and then just a few other ones, uh, if, if they're, and these seem to be obvious, but

00:18:53.940 --> 00:18:59.040
 I want to say them anyway, if they, if you ever catch somebody researching ways to commit

00:18:59.040 --> 00:19:04.160
 suicide, obviously you're going to be concerned if they're stockpiling pills, if they're looking

00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:08.600
 into getting weapons, um, those are things to really pay attention to.

00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:11.280
 Um, my friend that, that was the case.

00:19:11.280 --> 00:19:17.660
 He had been researching, uh, what is the most painless way to take your life, uh, painless

00:19:17.660 --> 00:19:18.200
 and quick.

00:19:18.780 --> 00:19:24.040
 And, and the people around him knew that and went and got him help, but they should have

00:19:24.040 --> 00:19:26.180
 got, we should have gotten even more help than we did.

00:19:26.460 --> 00:19:31.300
 Um, so those are some of the things that are going to be signs, uh, that you're going to

00:19:31.300 --> 00:19:32.120
 want to look for.

00:19:32.920 --> 00:19:33.280
 Yeah.

00:19:34.020 --> 00:19:34.780
 That was a lot.

00:19:34.860 --> 00:19:36.240
 I know I just gave you a pile.

00:19:38.080 --> 00:19:42.180
 Well, in one of the challenges of, of us, Jeff is, as you know, just even some of what

00:19:42.180 --> 00:19:47.060
 you just threw out there and trying to, to more dig in, you know, we are people that are

00:19:47.060 --> 00:19:54.400
 listening to this, um, is, uh, all digital ministry, like, uh, digital churches, um, physical

00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:58.340
 churches, doing digital ministry, but we're, we're engaging with people remotely.

00:19:58.700 --> 00:19:59.140
 Yeah.

00:19:59.140 --> 00:20:03.740
 And so like you're, you're talking about, you know, if they're stockpiling pills and stuff

00:20:03.740 --> 00:20:07.780
 like that, you know, I, we only really see what, what we see exactly.

00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:08.680
 We see what's on zoom.

00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:15.340
 We see what's on, uh, like on, on a webcam or, or, you know, what, how people are interacting

00:20:15.340 --> 00:20:20.720
 via, via texting or things like that, you know, and I'm thinking, you know, I know some of

00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:25.940
 your stories, like, um, you know, an experience of somebody that's in another time zone or another

00:20:25.940 --> 00:20:28.000
 state or a friend that, that that's far away.

00:20:28.300 --> 00:20:33.820
 And you're thinking about maybe some of those, those interactions where you're, you're, you

00:20:33.820 --> 00:20:37.860
 know, engaging and, and, and talking with them remotely.

00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:40.520
 You don't have that face to face, you know, opportunity.

00:20:40.520 --> 00:20:44.220
 And there's, there, I think there's, it's interesting some of the, the, the language in

00:20:44.220 --> 00:20:50.880
 chat, um, there's, uh, there's struggles because we don't have that physical tell.

00:20:51.400 --> 00:20:55.620
 Uh, and so there's, there's a negative to digital, but to be honest, I think there's a, there's

00:20:55.620 --> 00:21:01.480
 a strength to digital as well, because I think people are more open to engaging and dialoguing

00:21:01.480 --> 00:21:03.260
 via digital.

00:21:03.260 --> 00:21:07.820
 They feel more safe having some of these conversations and being more transparent.

00:21:07.880 --> 00:21:12.500
 Um, remotely because that person's not face to face to face.

00:21:12.540 --> 00:21:17.920
 Have you like, have you had any experience dealing with, with people that are remote, uh, that

00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:21.340
 are, that are, that are far away from you and having some of these conversations?

00:21:21.740 --> 00:21:22.140
 Absolutely.

00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:22.680
 Yeah.

00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:26.780
 And I would even say that that is one of the strengths of, of a digital space is this

00:21:26.780 --> 00:21:30.900
 was, they feel like they can stay a little bit anonymous so that they might show up more.

00:21:31.260 --> 00:21:32.840
 Um, they might tell the truth more.

00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:38.820
 The downside is you can't be with it, you know, not watch body as much.

00:21:38.820 --> 00:21:40.780
 You can't watch behaviors as much, like you said.

00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:42.220
 So there is a tension.

00:21:42.220 --> 00:21:44.960
 There's one where you, they might show up more and be, feel more honest.

00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:46.300
 And I found that to be the case too.

00:21:46.300 --> 00:21:51.180
 Anybody I engage in digital space tends to be more open and honest about what they're really

00:21:51.180 --> 00:21:51.920
 going through.

00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:57.280
 Partly because I think that the lack of being next to each other creates almost a safety.

00:21:57.280 --> 00:22:00.300
 Like I can shut this off at any point and I can go away.

00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:01.700
 Now that's the flip side.

00:22:01.700 --> 00:22:06.700
 It's like, you got to pay attention to when someone just goes away, when someone disengages

00:22:06.700 --> 00:22:11.960
 in the space, stops having chats or whatever, like that's, those are things you want to watch

00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:13.420
 for when, Hey, where have they been?

00:22:13.500 --> 00:22:15.180
 We haven't heard from them in a long time.

00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:20.480
 That might lead us to say, I got to reach out more intentionally, check in on them, see

00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:21.080
 what's happening.

00:22:21.620 --> 00:22:26.920
 Find out if they're, if they're trying to, you know, move away and into greater isolation.

00:22:27.340 --> 00:22:32.920
 But I do think this space, the space you guys are in lends itself in a lot of ways to a

00:22:32.920 --> 00:22:34.980
 greater vulnerability and transparency.

00:22:35.700 --> 00:22:35.780
 Yeah.

00:22:35.840 --> 00:22:37.220
 And that's why it's so important.

00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:40.040
 You know, I've been doing digital ministry for a while.

00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:44.660
 It's so important to build relationships like in, in whatever way you can.

00:22:44.760 --> 00:22:46.720
 Now you can't build it with every single person.

00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:49.620
 That would be impossible, but you can build it with some.

00:22:49.740 --> 00:22:54.900
 And so when you keep your eyes open, looking for those things, like looking for, like you

00:22:54.900 --> 00:22:59.720
 were talking about the just changes or like they start posting a certain song that like,

00:22:59.780 --> 00:23:04.840
 you're like, that's like some suspicion is coming up that I need to, but then you have

00:23:04.840 --> 00:23:09.080
 enough, you've built trust with them so you can speak into their life and say, Hey, what's

00:23:09.080 --> 00:23:09.520
 going on?

00:23:09.820 --> 00:23:13.040
 Like, I haven't seen you in, you know, our group for a while.

00:23:13.180 --> 00:23:15.000
 I haven't, you know, you can reach out to them.

00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:20.900
 So that's so important is to build those relationships so that you can step into them, especially when

00:23:20.900 --> 00:23:24.860
 you're doing this digitally and you're not, you know, you can't just like drive over to

00:23:24.860 --> 00:23:25.420
 their house.

00:23:25.860 --> 00:23:29.060
 You have another way to connect with them because people will have their phones with them all

00:23:29.060 --> 00:23:29.440
 the time.

00:23:29.800 --> 00:23:31.800
 So you can just connect that way.

00:23:31.820 --> 00:23:33.060
 But I think that's so important.

00:23:33.420 --> 00:23:33.560
 Yeah.

00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:40.220
 And, you know, pay attention, pay attention to the conversations you guys are having when

00:23:40.220 --> 00:23:40.940
 you're with people.

00:23:40.940 --> 00:23:43.440
 Like what, what are the themes running through?

00:23:43.640 --> 00:23:45.960
 What are the, like, we really want to care for each other.

00:23:46.060 --> 00:23:52.660
 Well, we want to listen really, really well and be curious, you know, ask more questions

00:23:52.660 --> 00:23:54.560
 than so that you draw out the heart.

00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:59.120
 And, you know, one of my favorite Proverbs is the one that says, you know, that the person

00:23:59.120 --> 00:24:02.860
 of understanding is able to draw out the deep waters of another person's heart.

00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:08.180
 And I, man, I think if we can learn how to do that in these spaces, we're going to be

00:24:08.180 --> 00:24:09.460
 so helpful for people.

00:24:10.420 --> 00:24:17.180
 I would love to kind of maybe throw some myths out about, you know, bust them about

00:24:17.180 --> 00:24:19.120
 suicidal ideations.

00:24:19.760 --> 00:24:24.140
 I know for me, one of the biggest things as I was going through my mental health coaching

00:24:24.140 --> 00:24:29.300
 training was if somebody's struggling with that and they start talking about, you know,

00:24:29.600 --> 00:24:34.580
 feeling this way, like I had a hard time wanting to ask the question, like, well, do you

00:24:34.580 --> 00:24:40.480
 have a plan, but you need to like asking that question is not going to be, oh, I should make

00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:41.900
 a plan and then them go do that.

00:24:42.320 --> 00:24:45.200
 It's, it's that question that they start to be seen.

00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:49.720
 And so that's been, that's been a really tough question to ask that I've had to do a couple

00:24:49.720 --> 00:24:52.440
 of times to ask people, like, do you have a plan?

00:24:52.580 --> 00:24:58.100
 Because if so, then we need to take this conversation in a different place because I'm not qualified

00:24:58.100 --> 00:25:00.760
 to have, like, let's get some more help.

00:25:00.760 --> 00:25:06.420
 And so knowing that, but what are some other, like, maybe myths that you've heard or you've,

00:25:06.560 --> 00:25:11.520
 other people have said that you're like, no, we gotta, we gotta get rid of that kind

00:25:11.520 --> 00:25:12.340
 of thought process.

00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:13.480
 Yeah.

00:25:13.580 --> 00:25:15.240
 I mean, there's a, there's a lot of them.

00:25:15.460 --> 00:25:21.800
 I mean, like one, you know, one is like people who are suicide, talk about suicidal or express

00:25:21.800 --> 00:25:24.780
 suicidal ideation are just seeking attention.

00:25:25.780 --> 00:25:27.760
 And that's, it's just an intention seeker.

00:25:27.760 --> 00:25:31.320
 And like, that may be the case, but don't ever minimize that.

00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:35.220
 I mean, they may be seeking attention, but don't ever minimize it to just that.

00:25:35.580 --> 00:25:37.380
 Some people think, well, it's a selfish act.

00:25:37.380 --> 00:25:43.000
 And the idea really for many people is they think they're alleviating other people from

00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:47.480
 their, the way that they're, they are on other people that, and, and they, they see it as

00:25:47.480 --> 00:25:48.120
 a way out.

00:25:48.120 --> 00:25:53.180
 Like they, they really do think it's a way of saving self, uh, not selfish.

00:25:53.180 --> 00:25:57.360
 You know, in fact, a lot of the person that helped me, I walked through some of the stuff

00:25:57.360 --> 00:25:57.880
 with my friends.

00:25:57.880 --> 00:26:01.280
 They said, this was his last attempt to save himself actually.

00:26:01.880 --> 00:26:05.320
 Uh, and I don't mean like in salvation words, like Christian salvation.

00:26:05.320 --> 00:26:09.160
 I mean, like, like he was trying to help himself in the, in his own mind.

00:26:09.480 --> 00:26:13.540
 And so, um, and now it did, didn't, and it hurt all of us.

00:26:13.540 --> 00:26:13.840
 Right.

00:26:13.900 --> 00:26:15.900
 But, but that's, that's real.

00:26:16.020 --> 00:26:20.460
 People are trying to get out of the pain or trying to get out of the weight that they're

00:26:20.460 --> 00:26:20.880
 feeling.

00:26:20.880 --> 00:26:24.200
 So, uh, they're trying to rescue themselves in a sense.

00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:30.240
 Um, uh, I think, uh, there's another myth that, um, you know, it only happens to people

00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:31.340
 who have a chemical problem.

00:26:31.340 --> 00:26:35.680
 You know, like it's primarily a, you know, just a brain issue.

00:26:36.280 --> 00:26:39.600
 Um, and you know, if they could just get the right medicine, that won't happen.

00:26:39.660 --> 00:26:41.800
 It's like, there's lots of reasons why this happens.

00:26:41.800 --> 00:26:43.060
 It's not just that.

00:26:43.380 --> 00:26:47.080
 Um, uh, I think another myth is it happens without warning.

00:26:47.080 --> 00:26:49.620
 I don't necessarily think that's the case.

00:26:49.640 --> 00:26:54.020
 I think there's lots of warning signs if we're close enough and if we can watch and be present

00:26:54.020 --> 00:26:54.520
 with people.

00:26:55.080 --> 00:26:57.420
 Um, so those are a few of them.

00:26:57.420 --> 00:27:01.960
 Um, you know, another one, I think, and this is what I had to work through as I process with

00:27:01.960 --> 00:27:05.560
 other people is like, if someone's determined to die, nothing's going to stop them.

00:27:05.560 --> 00:27:06.400
 And that's not true.

00:27:06.940 --> 00:27:09.300
 Uh, we can, we can do something.

00:27:09.580 --> 00:27:10.840
 They can be helped.

00:27:11.280 --> 00:27:12.820
 Their thoughts can be changed.

00:27:13.120 --> 00:27:15.040
 Uh, doesn't have to end that way.

00:27:15.280 --> 00:27:20.180
 Uh, so, uh, and then you said it too, and I just want to state it again, asking someone

00:27:20.180 --> 00:27:24.580
 about their thoughts and about their plans, uh, is not going to put the idea in their

00:27:24.580 --> 00:27:26.100
 heart head and then get them to go do it.

00:27:26.180 --> 00:27:27.980
 It's actually going to get it out of their head.

00:27:28.020 --> 00:27:30.240
 Like they're going to get to now say it out loud.

00:27:30.280 --> 00:27:33.460
 And when something is said out loud language, we use them to counseling.

00:27:34.100 --> 00:27:38.400
 I use coaching because I'm not really official counselor, but coaching work that I do is

00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:40.280
 if it's mentionable, it's manageable.

00:27:41.620 --> 00:27:45.560
 So if we can get them to say it out loud, then we could, we could do something about it.

00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:48.900
 If they don't say it out loud, they're living with it all by themselves.

00:27:49.640 --> 00:27:51.740
 And that's a dangerous place to stay.

00:27:51.820 --> 00:27:53.900
 And I think that can translate into the digital space.

00:27:54.080 --> 00:27:58.960
 Let's get people to talk to, to say out loud or in chat, what it is they're thinking about

00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:02.120
 doing with their pain or their hopelessness or their struggle.

00:28:02.120 --> 00:28:07.220
 Like we can invite them to tell us what they think they're going to do as a result of what

00:28:07.220 --> 00:28:07.920
 they're going through.

00:28:08.360 --> 00:28:09.960
 So I'm glad you started there.

00:28:09.960 --> 00:28:12.640
 Cause I think that's one of the fundamental myths most people believe.

00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:16.820
 Um, so yeah, I just want to draw attention to that.

00:28:17.160 --> 00:28:19.500
 If it's mentionable, then it's manageable.

00:28:20.920 --> 00:28:23.740
 Like I, I have, uh, that's tattoo worthy, man.

00:28:23.820 --> 00:28:25.240
 We have, we have a theme on the show.

00:28:25.240 --> 00:28:30.420
 Like if the good stuff, would I actually put Jeff Vanderstelt's name on my body?

00:28:30.420 --> 00:28:35.920
 And that quote, that, that quote's good enough for, you know, did you, did you, is that you?

00:28:36.260 --> 00:28:37.200
 Or did you steal that from somebody?

00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:40.380
 That's, that's language and that's in the therapeutic world.

00:28:40.380 --> 00:28:45.800
 So I didn't make that up myself, but, but here's the, but here's, here's the idea.

00:28:45.800 --> 00:28:50.720
 Like, like, because we are made in the image of a God who spoke and things came into existence.

00:28:51.020 --> 00:28:53.300
 When we speak, something exists.

00:28:54.260 --> 00:28:58.760
 So when I say something now it's real and now that it's real, we can do something about it.

00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:03.240
 When I keep it inside of me, I, we, we can't do much with it.

00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:03.460
 Right.

00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:05.200
 So that's the nature of confession.

00:29:05.400 --> 00:29:09.100
 Like we are a confessional people and that's not just confessing sin.

00:29:09.100 --> 00:29:13.520
 It's just confession is saying what's saying out loud, what's going on inside of me.

00:29:13.620 --> 00:29:16.680
 And when I confess out loud, what's going on inside, it's real.

00:29:16.740 --> 00:29:20.200
 Now that it's real or mentionable, it's manageable.

00:29:20.340 --> 00:29:21.620
 We can do something about it.

00:29:22.140 --> 00:29:28.280
 I want to take it to, so say that we've noticed something in someone, whether it's a friend,

00:29:28.780 --> 00:29:33.100
 someone online that we've connected with, a family member, um, we've noticed something.

00:29:33.180 --> 00:29:36.640
 How, how do we go about saying something?

00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:42.700
 How do we go about like taking some steps to, to make sure that, you know, that this person

00:29:42.700 --> 00:29:45.780
 is okay, um, or we see, start to see certain things.

00:29:45.860 --> 00:29:49.060
 What, what are some things that, and steps that we could do to, to help?

00:29:49.700 --> 00:29:49.940
 Yeah.

00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:53.840
 I mean, it, it does, it does require a direct conversation.

00:29:53.840 --> 00:29:54.960
 That's very gentle.

00:29:55.440 --> 00:29:59.340
 Um, if we see something with somebody that we're concerned about.

00:29:59.340 --> 00:30:05.240
 And, um, um, I think it's important to use I statements when we have a conversation with

00:30:05.240 --> 00:30:09.500
 someone about something we've seen, like I've noticed that you don't seem the same.

00:30:09.500 --> 00:30:15.480
 Uh, you, I've seen that you're, you, you, I've noticed that you might, you know, that you're

00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:16.120
 disengaging.

00:30:16.120 --> 00:30:16.940
 Is that true?

00:30:16.940 --> 00:30:17.940
 Or I'm worried.

00:30:18.140 --> 00:30:25.780
 I've got concerns or asking questions like, you know, are, are you, are you growing in

00:30:25.780 --> 00:30:26.400
 hopelessness?

00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:28.060
 Are you thinking about hurting yourself?

00:30:28.520 --> 00:30:28.720
 Yeah.

00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:29.600
 You even said it too.

00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:31.460
 Are you developing a, I do have a plan.

00:30:31.460 --> 00:30:37.260
 Like if we, since they really are moving that direction to be that direct, uh, but not condemning,

00:30:37.360 --> 00:30:43.160
 not judge judging, not, you know, trying to like get them to think differently, believe

00:30:43.160 --> 00:30:43.560
 differently.

00:30:43.560 --> 00:30:45.340
 You know, that, that's where we get in trouble.

00:30:45.340 --> 00:30:48.940
 Like, I think sometimes we will say to people, well, you shouldn't feel that way.

00:30:48.980 --> 00:30:51.040
 You know, you're, you're, you're better than that.

00:30:51.040 --> 00:30:52.260
 Or it's not as bad as you think.

00:30:52.260 --> 00:30:54.600
 It's like, no, no, just let people talk.

00:30:54.600 --> 00:30:58.580
 And there's like three, three ways in which we usually shut people down without knowing

00:30:58.580 --> 00:30:58.800
 it.

00:30:58.940 --> 00:31:01.700
 One is we, we use sarcasm or humor.

00:31:02.200 --> 00:31:04.120
 Another is that we try to give advice.

00:31:04.460 --> 00:31:08.880
 And a third is we try to use encouragement, not that encouragement isn't good, but when someone

00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:12.980
 needs to let something out, you're better off just asking questions and drawing out

00:31:12.980 --> 00:31:17.320
 more and more and more, because the more they can get out, the more we can then address.

00:31:17.820 --> 00:31:23.180
 So be careful that you don't minimize, that you don't try to give so much advice that you

00:31:23.180 --> 00:31:24.080
 shut them down.

00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:30.500
 So yeah, now if they share stuff like, yeah, I'm really, really hurting right now, or I'm

00:31:30.500 --> 00:31:32.780
 really sad right now, acknowledge it.

00:31:32.820 --> 00:31:36.920
 Say something like, man, that sounds really hard, you know, or I'm sorry that you're going

00:31:36.920 --> 00:31:39.240
 through that, but we don't have to fix them.

00:31:39.300 --> 00:31:41.820
 When we try to fix them, it's usually a way of shutting them down.

00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:48.980
 You know, so I do that, listen without interrupting, you know, like just let them keep talking,

00:31:49.080 --> 00:31:50.060
 be empathetic.

00:31:50.560 --> 00:31:55.080
 In other words, you know, if you're able to feel with them what they're going through.

00:31:56.440 --> 00:31:59.540
 So I, you know, that's, like I said, that sounds really sad.

00:31:59.620 --> 00:32:00.680
 That sounds really scary.

00:32:01.240 --> 00:32:03.560
 It sounds like you're feeling so overwhelmed.

00:32:03.560 --> 00:32:08.220
 I can see that, you know, so see them, be present with them.

00:32:08.960 --> 00:32:13.820
 I also would encourage you to make sure you're choosing the right time and space to do this.

00:32:13.900 --> 00:32:18.480
 I think sometimes there, we do this in front of people and then it really can shame people.

00:32:18.760 --> 00:32:22.100
 So we've got to be really wise about where we have these conversations.

00:32:23.100 --> 00:32:27.260
 And please don't promise that you won't tell anybody, okay?

00:32:27.360 --> 00:32:28.560
 This is where people get trouble.

00:32:28.780 --> 00:32:31.060
 Like, man, what you say will stay with me.

00:32:31.140 --> 00:32:31.800
 It's like, no, no.

00:32:31.940 --> 00:32:36.360
 If someone shares that they're wanting to take their life that can't stay with you, you know,

00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:40.960
 that's where you might need to say something like, I care about you too much to keep this to myself.

00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:43.000
 Like, we need to get you help.

00:32:43.240 --> 00:32:44.860
 We, I love you so much.

00:32:44.900 --> 00:32:48.380
 I don't want anything to take you out of my life or out of this relationship.

00:32:48.760 --> 00:32:53.260
 And then I would also say, make sure you take care of yourself in this.

00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:58.820
 I mean, this, if you start walking with someone through any of this suicidal ideation,

00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:02.600
 it's a lot of emotions that will be drained from you.

00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:06.180
 So you're going to need to get help while you're doing it.

00:33:06.780 --> 00:33:08.200
 And then keep checking in.

00:33:08.420 --> 00:33:09.380
 Keep checking in on people.

00:33:09.500 --> 00:33:12.480
 Don't think because the conversation went well that they're still doing well.

00:33:12.660 --> 00:33:15.360
 You'll need to check back over and over again.

00:33:16.700 --> 00:33:18.820
 Yeah, so many good points there.

00:33:20.060 --> 00:33:21.880
 Almost two follow-up questions here.

00:33:23.040 --> 00:33:26.260
 I want to get to secondhand trauma because I think that's important.

00:33:28.400 --> 00:33:30.140
 What is the point?

00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:36.380
 Now, Jeff, to framework this, I mean, you've got a lot of the people,

00:33:36.400 --> 00:33:39.040
 people doing digital ministry, are primarily bivocational.

00:33:39.320 --> 00:33:41.200
 You don't have seminary-trained people.

00:33:42.040 --> 00:33:44.660
 Megan is AACC certified, which is awesome.

00:33:44.760 --> 00:33:45.760
 That's why she's the architect.

00:33:46.220 --> 00:33:50.260
 But her work with and studies with the American Association of Christian Counselors,

00:33:50.340 --> 00:33:51.660
 that's an anomaly.

00:33:52.200 --> 00:33:58.080
 Most of us, honestly, it's more volunteer work and bivocational than it is seminary-trained.

00:33:58.500 --> 00:34:03.340
 And so that's the level of study going into this.

00:34:03.420 --> 00:34:05.620
 Not the level of pastoral shepherding.

00:34:05.700 --> 00:34:06.480
 You understand that.

00:34:06.540 --> 00:34:09.780
 But they're not studied and versed in this.

00:34:11.540 --> 00:34:16.000
 At what point is it, oh, man, this is out of my league.

00:34:16.100 --> 00:34:18.640
 I need to get this connected to someone.

00:34:19.340 --> 00:34:25.740
 Like, when do we wave the white flag and say, oh, let me introduce you and get you connected

00:34:25.740 --> 00:34:27.400
 to someone?

00:34:27.600 --> 00:34:30.860
 Or when do we call that suicide hotline or recommend they do that?

00:34:30.920 --> 00:34:34.440
 Because it's beyond our capacity.

00:34:34.620 --> 00:34:35.940
 What should we be looking for?

00:34:36.140 --> 00:34:41.780
 I think as soon as you have the thought that this person might take their life, you've

00:34:41.780 --> 00:34:44.900
 got to go do something about it, even if they don't say it.

00:34:45.120 --> 00:34:46.960
 Like, you've got to get help.

00:34:47.580 --> 00:34:51.740
 And that might just be, hey, I need to call somebody who I know knows about this.

00:34:51.880 --> 00:34:56.080
 I need to call a suicide hotline just to be counseled so I know what to pay attention

00:34:56.080 --> 00:34:57.360
 to and know what to do next.

00:34:57.780 --> 00:35:02.180
 I think as soon as you have any indication that that's where they're headed, you cannot

00:35:02.180 --> 00:35:03.300
 stay alone in this.

00:35:04.020 --> 00:35:04.880
 You've got to get help.

00:35:05.200 --> 00:35:09.740
 So, Megan, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that because you're a professional, but

00:35:09.740 --> 00:35:11.380
 I think we wait too long.

00:35:11.520 --> 00:35:13.420
 I think so often we wait too long.

00:35:13.660 --> 00:35:13.800
 Yeah.

00:35:13.980 --> 00:35:18.820
 I mean, that's definitely, that's something that you have to sign, you know, ethics.

00:35:19.100 --> 00:35:24.500
 And I, before I start any session, I say, okay, well, this is, everything is confidential

00:35:24.500 --> 00:35:28.320
 in this room, except for you're going to harm yourself or harm someone else.

00:35:28.340 --> 00:35:31.140
 And then I have to, like, I'm mandated to report that.

00:35:32.080 --> 00:35:36.760
 And so you have to know, you have to know where that boundary is.

00:35:36.760 --> 00:35:41.360
 You have to know when you learn the people and you have relationship, you can kind of

00:35:41.360 --> 00:35:44.820
 sense, like, if this needs to really be taken seriously.

00:35:45.520 --> 00:35:50.600
 And so I think that's a big key is to learn those people so you know when to.

00:35:50.600 --> 00:35:56.040
 But I think there's a lot of times when you start having kind of, like, the sirens signaling

00:35:56.040 --> 00:35:59.220
 and, like, going off of, like, I don't know how to handle this.

00:35:59.580 --> 00:36:00.220
 That's the point.

00:36:00.380 --> 00:36:01.280
 Get somebody else involved.

00:36:01.780 --> 00:36:02.060
 That's right.

00:36:02.120 --> 00:36:04.720
 If you're not sure, just don't try to make up something.

00:36:05.300 --> 00:36:07.500
 Don't just try to, like, I'll just figure it out.

00:36:07.700 --> 00:36:11.040
 Like, I've struggled with, you know, anxiety before.

00:36:11.140 --> 00:36:13.120
 Like, I'll just figure out, like, what works for me.

00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:15.600
 It's going to be different for someone else.

00:36:15.720 --> 00:36:19.920
 So get somebody else involved if it just even seems like, oh, I'm not sure.

00:36:20.760 --> 00:36:23.160
 Just another follow-up question off of that.

00:36:23.220 --> 00:36:23.960
 And that was great.

00:36:25.420 --> 00:36:31.500
 Secondhand trauma is, you know, that's a term, you know, Jeff, I think you know Mindy Caliguire,

00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:33.820
 a good friend of the Church Digital.

00:36:34.240 --> 00:36:38.600
 And Mindy did an episode with us a couple weeks ago on rest.

00:36:39.520 --> 00:36:41.940
 And so Mindy, Mindy's kind of my go-to.

00:36:42.180 --> 00:36:47.260
 She's on, you know, she's not a certified, but, you know, expert.

00:36:47.500 --> 00:36:50.880
 But, you know, she does a lot in this mental health and soul care space.

00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:54.820
 And she used that term with me in a conversation once.

00:36:55.220 --> 00:36:59.460
 And, you know, in my life, going all the way back to high school,

00:36:59.980 --> 00:37:03.800
 like there have been situations where I delved into the deep end.

00:37:05.080 --> 00:37:07.580
 You know, I'm a get in there and solve it.

00:37:07.800 --> 00:37:10.160
 And I don't, you know, I don't mind getting dirty.

00:37:10.500 --> 00:37:13.640
 And so if someone's down and dirty and going through hard times,

00:37:13.760 --> 00:37:16.880
 traditionally, I'm the guy that's jumping in the mud with them

00:37:16.880 --> 00:37:20.100
 to try to help resolve it.

00:37:20.100 --> 00:37:23.840
 And, you know, there have been situations in my life where,

00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:27.160
 okay, that's, you know, secondhand trauma.

00:37:27.340 --> 00:37:29.720
 And now I'm carrying that weight.

00:37:29.780 --> 00:37:31.860
 And now that weight is becoming me.

00:37:32.080 --> 00:37:35.520
 And I don't know how to leave myself from it.

00:37:35.620 --> 00:37:41.240
 Like I have always struggled being the nine to five guy

00:37:41.240 --> 00:37:46.560
 and, you know, walking away without carrying the weight of ministry,

00:37:46.720 --> 00:37:47.960
 even this level.

00:37:50.020 --> 00:37:53.120
 How do you, what do we watch for?

00:37:53.220 --> 00:37:57.180
 How do we protect ourselves from maybe this idea of secondhand trauma?

00:37:58.920 --> 00:38:03.800
 Well, I think first we all, before even we get to it,

00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:07.760
 we ought to be in the practice of taking care of ourselves emotionally.

00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:09.840
 So we know when we're not emotionally well.

00:38:10.040 --> 00:38:13.540
 Like I think if you don't know the difference between being emotionally healthy

00:38:13.540 --> 00:38:17.400
 and being emotionally unhealthy, you won't know when it's happening to you.

00:38:18.540 --> 00:38:23.160
 So I think preventative, we need to engage in preventative work,

00:38:23.500 --> 00:38:30.220
 which for me is like I, on a daily basis, I do a feeling check-in at least once a day or more.

00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:32.560
 I do it in my journal.

00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:36.760
 So like feeling sad, lonely, hurt, guilt, shame.

00:38:36.940 --> 00:38:38.320
 I go through eight different emotions.

00:38:38.420 --> 00:38:39.420
 Where am I at with them?

00:38:39.860 --> 00:38:41.140
 I talk to God about that.

00:38:41.180 --> 00:38:43.220
 And I have a few friends that I do that with regularly.

00:38:43.700 --> 00:38:48.620
 And so I'm in the practice of doing a check-in with my feelings

00:38:48.620 --> 00:38:51.860
 and then articulating what's going on and why those feelings,

00:38:51.960 --> 00:38:53.240
 what those feelings are connected to.

00:38:53.660 --> 00:38:57.500
 So if you aren't regularly doing that, I'd say you need to find a way to practice that

00:38:57.500 --> 00:39:01.700
 because that's going to help you then be aware when you're,

00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:07.260
 when you aren't doing well or when the trauma from somebody else's pain is affecting you

00:39:07.260 --> 00:39:08.920
 because you'll be doing the check-in regularly.

00:39:08.920 --> 00:39:11.900
 You'll be like, man, I've got more sadness than I realized.

00:39:12.020 --> 00:39:13.320
 I got a lot more fear.

00:39:13.960 --> 00:39:18.720
 And so, and at trauma, really trauma, a lot of ways is about becoming detached.

00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:24.000
 You know, it's about being disconnected relationally to yourself

00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:26.840
 because of something else that happens somewhere else.

00:39:26.980 --> 00:39:30.100
 So what we have to, if we can keep staying attached to self,

00:39:30.320 --> 00:39:33.920
 what I mean by that is I care for myself.

00:39:33.920 --> 00:39:38.180
 I love myself, not in a selfish way, but like in a attending to my soul.

00:39:38.440 --> 00:39:42.060
 Then when I go to care for someone else and they're detached,

00:39:42.320 --> 00:39:46.500
 and then we experience another form of detachment between us because of what happens,

00:39:46.920 --> 00:39:54.320
 I can go back and reattach and care for myself in the way that the trauma probably didn't care for me.

00:39:54.360 --> 00:39:57.860
 Because when you're in the midst of trauma, it's, it's breaking, it's breaking you apart.

00:39:58.220 --> 00:40:01.540
 It's destroying relationship both internally as well as externally.

00:40:01.880 --> 00:40:08.320
 And so to be able to reattach to God yourself is going to be necessary for the healing that you're going to have to experience.

00:40:09.080 --> 00:40:10.480
 And, and you said it, you become it.

00:40:10.560 --> 00:40:16.040
 And that's the thing that you, you begin to take it on yourself and you become the, the person's trauma.

00:40:16.040 --> 00:40:17.480
 You become the person's feelings.

00:40:17.480 --> 00:40:22.700
 And that enmeshment is really dangerous for people when they start to become it themselves.

00:40:23.040 --> 00:40:29.500
 So, I mean, I said a lot there, but at the heart of it, it's, you've got to keep doing your own emotional health work

00:40:29.500 --> 00:40:33.160
 so that you attend to your soul when you end up in those spaces.

00:40:34.860 --> 00:40:40.580
 You know, you, you said, uh, emotional, I'm sorry, Megan, you said emotional health, uh, you know, use that phrase a lot.

00:40:40.620 --> 00:40:44.300
 Is that the emotional, healthy leader, like something like that?

00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:47.620
 Would you recommend those resources or what resources would you dive?

00:40:48.140 --> 00:40:50.960
 All those resources are good as long as you do the work.

00:40:50.960 --> 00:41:00.580
 And by the work, I mean, not read them and cognitively learn about them, which is usually left brain activity, but right brain do emotion.

00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:03.940
 Like again, when you, when it's mentioned, it's manageable.

00:41:04.200 --> 00:41:07.820
 So if I say I'm sad, now I feel sad.

00:41:08.440 --> 00:41:11.460
 I mean, if I feel sad and I say it now, sadness is real to me.

00:41:11.640 --> 00:41:14.060
 And Jesus said, blessed are those who mourn, they'll be comforted.

00:41:14.100 --> 00:41:18.180
 So now I can get my need met relationally from God or others.

00:41:18.180 --> 00:41:25.360
 So when I say it, the language we use Tim men is if I feel I need, if I need, I'll desire.

00:41:25.600 --> 00:41:26.520
 So I'll just give you an example.

00:41:26.640 --> 00:41:27.280
 I feel sad.

00:41:27.340 --> 00:41:28.400
 Then I know I need comfort.

00:41:29.020 --> 00:41:30.360
 Now it's, it's manageable.

00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:31.840
 I know I need something here.

00:41:32.120 --> 00:41:33.540
 If I need comfort, I'll desire.

00:41:33.540 --> 00:41:34.420
 Desire it.

00:41:34.420 --> 00:41:37.940
 It's like there'll be internal energy to go get what I need.

00:41:38.260 --> 00:41:46.900
 And then if I desire it, I'll long for it, which means I'll reach out to God or others to get that need met, which is what restores hope, by the way.

00:41:47.700 --> 00:41:51.860
 Because when I anticipate I'm going to get something met, I have hope.

00:41:52.660 --> 00:42:06.540
 And so that process of feeling, so I'll know I have a need, so I can attend to a desire, so I can reach out and have it met and then have hope that it will be, it will change me, is the journey of doing your work.

00:42:07.300 --> 00:42:09.780
 Like, that's basically the work when I say emotional health work.

00:42:09.780 --> 00:42:12.580
 A lot of people read about it, but they never practice it.

00:42:13.160 --> 00:42:34.840
 That's where I get, one of my concerns about the books, I'm working on a book right now, but the problem with the book is if you don't actually do the practice of what I just said, and ideally with some other people who can then reflect back to you what's going on, you'll just have a left brain process of knowledge without a right brain expression of emotion and relationship.

00:42:36.700 --> 00:42:40.820
 Yeah, I was going to tag on that, like, we need to be able to sit in those emotions.

00:42:41.460 --> 00:42:43.300
 Like, if you don't, you can't process it.

00:42:43.780 --> 00:42:52.060
 And how awkward it can be, how uncomfortable it can be, like, it's so, like, so healthy for you to do that.

00:42:52.440 --> 00:42:57.640
 And I think that's when you start to, all the things you were talking about, you start to know yourself more.

00:42:57.760 --> 00:43:06.100
 Like, you start to recognize quicker when you start to feel sad or you start to, like, you're listening to somebody else's story and you start to feel,

00:43:06.100 --> 00:43:13.960
 well, oh, okay, that's activating something in me and, like, I should probably bring somebody else into this conversation because you have to know yourself.

00:43:13.960 --> 00:43:22.980
 If you've struggled with suicidal ideations and you're talking to somebody with that, like, bring somebody else in that conversation immediately because that's good.

00:43:23.220 --> 00:43:27.780
 That would be hard for anyone to do, let alone if you've had your own struggle with that.

00:43:28.060 --> 00:43:34.100
 So that's one of those pieces when you can know yourself so well, you can bring those things together and help.

00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:37.680
 And it'll be so much more beneficial to the person you're talking with.

00:43:37.680 --> 00:43:42.860
 And then you're not trying to take that on yourself, like, trying to save the world with that.

00:43:43.080 --> 00:43:43.960
 Yeah, that's right.

00:43:44.060 --> 00:43:44.200
 Yeah.

00:43:44.200 --> 00:43:49.960
 And as you do that, you also want to pay attention to your body because your body is giving signals about what's happening to you.

00:43:50.080 --> 00:43:56.640
 A lot of people don't even pay attention at all to their body, but your body will tell you if you're taking on other people's trauma.

00:43:58.240 --> 00:44:05.740
 Like, there's a lot of signs that you can pay attention to in your gut, your back, your – I mean, your whole body will start to feel pain even at times.

00:44:06.140 --> 00:44:08.980
 So, by the way, I'm so glad you guys are having this conversation.

00:44:09.120 --> 00:44:09.860
 This is awesome.

00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:13.860
 Like, I just want to commend you that you've been putting so much time into this space.

00:44:15.380 --> 00:44:16.560
 It's so important.

00:44:17.980 --> 00:44:31.100
 It's – yeah, it's worth noting, like, the chat in Twitch has exploded on this and the topics of encouraging and asking questions and complimentary.

00:44:31.920 --> 00:44:35.480
 And it's – this is – you know, we put this on demand, and it's great.

00:44:35.540 --> 00:44:37.060
 You get more exposure on demand.

00:44:37.360 --> 00:44:44.780
 But the experience of actually jumping in the chat live and seeing this, and they're, like, answering each other's questions and digging on top of that.

00:44:44.780 --> 00:44:53.080
 Like, it's really fascinating to see even the community centered around this in Twitch on how they're digging into it.

00:44:53.200 --> 00:44:57.600
 And so, thanks for being, you know, just even transparent and honest digging into these questions.

00:44:58.360 --> 00:44:58.860
 Oh, man.

00:44:59.080 --> 00:45:00.320
 I'm so glad to, yeah.

00:45:01.180 --> 00:45:04.640
 I was – I've been watching it the whole time, and I'm like, oh, yes.

00:45:04.760 --> 00:45:05.440
 Okay, yes.

00:45:05.480 --> 00:45:06.300
 Like, loving that.

00:45:06.780 --> 00:45:09.660
 And I think Roz just put, like, a resource in there.

00:45:09.660 --> 00:45:14.520
 But that's what I was going to ask you next is, like, what resources do you recommend?

00:45:14.780 --> 00:45:20.160
 For people that – maybe somebody that's struggling or somebody who's trying to help, different things like that.

00:45:20.220 --> 00:45:21.860
 What are some resources you would think of?

00:45:21.860 --> 00:45:23.540
 Oh, there's – I mean, there's so many.

00:45:23.940 --> 00:45:25.980
 It's almost hard to know where to begin.

00:45:27.060 --> 00:45:30.000
 I saw the Body Keeps the Score just showed up on the chat.

00:45:30.080 --> 00:45:35.500
 I think that's a great one in terms of what I just said about paying attention to your body and how it carries trauma.

00:45:37.120 --> 00:45:45.560
 You know, there's a – John Bradshaw wrote a book on being set free from the shame that binds.

00:45:46.360 --> 00:45:58.540
 And he's probably what the seminal thinker that everybody else that's writing about this is drawing from, whether it's Pia Melody or Kurt Thompson or, you know, Chuck DeGrowt.

00:45:58.620 --> 00:45:59.760
 I mean, Mindy, all of them.

00:46:00.160 --> 00:46:08.920
 He is the one that really deals with the toxic shame and healthy shame that I think is at the heart of so much suicidal ideation.

00:46:08.920 --> 00:46:13.780
 Because we just get so overwhelmed with not feeling great about ourselves.

00:46:14.480 --> 00:46:19.640
 And so I think books like that, Kurt Thompson's book, The Soul of Shame, is really helpful.

00:46:20.160 --> 00:46:23.440
 Jenny Allen just wrote a book that just came out.

00:46:23.520 --> 00:46:25.380
 I'm not done with it yet, but I love it already.

00:46:25.580 --> 00:46:27.520
 And it's Untangling Your Emotions.

00:46:28.480 --> 00:46:32.500
 Here's a lot more about how do you do the process, like what I just – some of what I just said.

00:46:33.400 --> 00:46:36.800
 The Voice of the Heart is a good book by Chip Dodd.

00:46:36.800 --> 00:46:39.620
 I recommend Tin Man Ministries, like I just said.

00:46:39.720 --> 00:46:42.820
 I think they're incredibly good at getting people to do the work.

00:46:44.300 --> 00:46:50.100
 I just did two sessions earlier today with two different guys, and I'm just watching breakthroughs in their life.

00:46:50.280 --> 00:46:52.140
 So get help if you need it.

00:46:53.060 --> 00:46:54.740
 There's resources out there.

00:46:55.420 --> 00:46:57.060
 Mindy Caliguire is incredible.

00:46:57.300 --> 00:46:58.560
 Her ministry is wonderful.

00:47:00.120 --> 00:47:02.360
 You know, so those are some of the people I'd direct you to.

00:47:03.140 --> 00:47:06.060
 I did notice somebody asked, is there a hotline?

00:47:06.060 --> 00:47:09.860
 And did we get that, the suicide hotline, if people need to call somebody?

00:47:10.680 --> 00:47:13.940
 There was a link that was shared, but I'll throw that at Megan.

00:47:14.040 --> 00:47:17.500
 Megan, do you have like a hotline that you utilize?

00:47:18.800 --> 00:47:22.400
 I mean, primarily we're U.S.-based, but there is international engagement as well.

00:47:23.140 --> 00:47:27.460
 I mean, I know the biggest one, the 988, that's the suicide hotline.

00:47:27.700 --> 00:47:32.640
 I believe there's a hotline, and that's even like hopeline.com, I think.

00:47:33.160 --> 00:47:39.420
 And that's a way that people can connect, even just like online, digitally, back and forth.

00:47:39.680 --> 00:47:42.500
 Some of those are even like tech space that you can do that as well.

00:47:43.120 --> 00:47:48.960
 So those are definitely ones that I recommend to pass them to if they're struggling,

00:47:49.180 --> 00:47:52.220
 because they're going to be people who are trained to walk through that.

00:47:52.980 --> 00:47:53.100
 Yeah.

00:47:53.640 --> 00:47:53.860
 Yeah.

00:47:54.140 --> 00:48:01.380
 Leighton says that he's got a command when he streams on Twitch and his channel that has like an international link.

00:48:01.860 --> 00:48:03.320
 And so he's driving, I think, right now.

00:48:03.360 --> 00:48:04.600
 He probably doesn't have access to it.

00:48:04.860 --> 00:48:05.560
 So let's do this.

00:48:05.600 --> 00:48:08.480
 If you're looking for the international number, you can just, you know, bother Leighton.

00:48:09.060 --> 00:48:16.380
 Email Leighton at Leighton, L-E-I-G-H-T-O-N, Leighton at thechurch.digital.

00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:19.240
 Or you can blow him up on Discord.

00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:20.060
 He's flat cap.

00:48:21.020 --> 00:48:26.160
 And, yeah, he doesn't have the international link on his phone, but he'll get it to you.

00:48:26.420 --> 00:48:28.840
 So you can ask him and pastor him to get it to you later.

00:48:29.220 --> 00:48:29.760
 Go ahead, Jeff.

00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:37.480
 Jeff, I was just going to say, I think for all of you living in this space and doing online ministry, online interaction,

00:48:37.640 --> 00:48:46.960
 I think it'd be good if you all had that just regularly posted in your space because I think because you don't know if they need help.

00:48:47.200 --> 00:48:50.740
 And so but they might know and they might be willing to reach out.

00:48:50.900 --> 00:48:57.240
 So because because you can't be present with everybody in the same way, you've got to be more proactive about this, I think.

00:48:57.660 --> 00:49:00.480
 So I highly recommend you guys do something like that.

00:49:01.080 --> 00:49:02.840
 You know, it's it's interesting.

00:49:03.980 --> 00:49:12.340
 I would have conversations about this, about, you know, dealing with suicide, people with ideation and thinking about it.

00:49:12.680 --> 00:49:17.300
 And, you know, some churches would be like, oh, my gosh, we deal with that all the time.

00:49:17.300 --> 00:49:20.340
 And some churches are like, we never have this issue.

00:49:20.560 --> 00:49:21.960
 Well, I don't know what you're talking about.

00:49:22.620 --> 00:49:43.760
 And it's it really digs into if if churches are leaning into digital community, if they are talking to people, if they're utilizing social media as a tool, two way tool, if they're doing things in virtual reality or discord or or places where there is conversation centered around community.

00:49:44.300 --> 00:49:51.040
 They're more likely in public environments like, you know, not church online platform or the church website.

00:49:51.220 --> 00:49:55.220
 If you're all outside of that, you're more likely to get those those conversations.

00:49:56.220 --> 00:50:04.440
 You know, it's it's if you're only broadcasting your church services online and the only time you interact is in a church service chat room.

00:50:05.160 --> 00:50:08.220
 You're not likely to get those types of conversations.

00:50:09.080 --> 00:50:10.820
 And so it really is.

00:50:10.900 --> 00:50:12.960
 It's kind of like even in digital environment.

00:50:13.080 --> 00:50:23.040
 If you stay in the church building digitally, if you only focus on on your little niche corners, you're not going to be really engaging with with the people that need you.

00:50:23.200 --> 00:50:31.200
 But if you can can leave the refuge of the church digitally even and start to get into these communities in these spaces.

00:50:31.500 --> 00:50:33.440
 Oh, my gosh, there is such a need.

00:50:33.440 --> 00:50:41.260
 Like we haven't even gotten into like the virtual reality implications in the metaverse and and dealing with with with people in this space.

00:50:41.260 --> 00:50:46.880
 It is like I've sat in suicide prevention meetings in in in VR chat.

00:50:46.980 --> 00:50:55.060
 We've I've had those conversations in virtual reality bars like there is there is so much darkness in there.

00:50:55.160 --> 00:50:57.220
 There's such a need for this.

00:50:57.220 --> 00:51:02.000
 But it's it's not it's not up to them to come to the church.

00:51:02.000 --> 00:51:08.540
 It's up to us to go to them and be informed in their spaces on on how to handle this.

00:51:08.660 --> 00:51:12.260
 And and this is man, this is just even scraping the tip of the iceberg.

00:51:12.260 --> 00:51:13.000
 This is beautiful.

00:51:13.120 --> 00:51:14.620
 Thank you for for your time here.

00:51:15.540 --> 00:51:16.480
 Megan, what else you got?

00:51:16.900 --> 00:51:21.460
 Yeah, no, I'm going to tag on to what you just said, because that was in my trainings.

00:51:21.460 --> 00:51:27.200
 We talked a lot about how in the past people used to come to the church like they would come to the church.

00:51:27.220 --> 00:51:28.320
 Shores when they were in need.

00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:33.200
 But that's changed like that's not there might be some still that come.

00:51:33.200 --> 00:51:42.780
 But for the most part, the church has created distance between the people who are hurting and it breaks my heart.

00:51:43.020 --> 00:51:51.760
 So being able to be in these digital spaces, I think, is a way that we're able to bridge that gap to get to build trust with them,

00:51:51.760 --> 00:51:57.520
 to be able to be there and be, you know, in their hand, because that's where our phones are.

00:51:57.580 --> 00:51:58.920
 They're always right in front of us.

00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:01.220
 So you have to go out.

00:52:01.220 --> 00:52:07.020
 And I love the mindset of everyone that's doing digital ministry is we got to go meet them where they're at.

00:52:07.240 --> 00:52:08.980
 And that's exactly what we need to do.

00:52:09.120 --> 00:52:10.660
 It's not a come here.

00:52:10.740 --> 00:52:11.220
 Look at me.

00:52:11.300 --> 00:52:12.780
 Let's come to me.

00:52:12.860 --> 00:52:14.380
 It's no, I got to go out.

00:52:14.440 --> 00:52:16.800
 And like you said, Jeff, like get in the mess.

00:52:16.940 --> 00:52:19.380
 Like we've got to get in there and dive in.

00:52:19.480 --> 00:52:20.900
 And I think that that's so important.

00:52:21.160 --> 00:52:22.800
 And we missed a little bit.

00:52:22.840 --> 00:52:26.440
 And that breaks my heart that we don't have them coming in as much.

00:52:26.620 --> 00:52:36.400
 And so going out and reaching out to them has been, I know for me, that was a huge game changer to just be able to really pour into somebody's life

00:52:36.400 --> 00:52:40.580
 and be able to make a difference, just stepping in in whatever way that may be.

00:52:41.060 --> 00:52:44.760
 So that's been, yeah, one of those things just to add on to it.

00:52:44.760 --> 00:52:48.560
 But I think, you know, we've talked about digital.

00:52:48.700 --> 00:52:49.840
 We've talked about social media.

00:52:50.980 --> 00:52:52.560
 You know, I think we've talked a little bit about it.

00:52:52.600 --> 00:52:55.220
 But like there are positive and negatives of it.

00:52:55.360 --> 00:52:57.900
 Again, you can share what you want to share.

00:52:59.120 --> 00:53:03.160
 But what kind of effect do you think it has had?

00:53:03.300 --> 00:53:09.340
 Like, has it had a positive effect overall, like that people can share more?

00:53:09.540 --> 00:53:12.180
 Or is that maybe a negative in some ways?

00:53:13.860 --> 00:53:19.100
 Yeah, I mean, I think the interaction side of it is really positive, right?

00:53:19.140 --> 00:53:27.120
 I think the opportunity to have a conversation, to share a lot more than I might have if I was, if you were with me physically.

00:53:27.420 --> 00:53:30.960
 I think there's some real strengths that you get to experience in that space.

00:53:31.040 --> 00:53:36.420
 I think the negative, and I'll say social media more than just like chats, you know, and discussions.

00:53:36.840 --> 00:53:40.440
 The negative is you're constantly being told you're not okay.

00:53:41.480 --> 00:53:49.680
 Like, you don't look good enough, you don't have enough, or you're trying to always present the better side of you in some cases.

00:53:49.680 --> 00:53:53.300
 So you're keeping a false self out there all the time.

00:53:53.780 --> 00:54:07.380
 And so that kind of potential separation from my real self and my false self is quite damaging to a person's psyche if they can't have a place where their true self shows up.

00:54:07.380 --> 00:54:17.960
 So I think that's the flip side, you know, that you probably, you guys are probably aware of it because you live in the space and you read all the stuff more than I do about what the good and the bad.

00:54:18.080 --> 00:54:31.600
 But, you know, this anxious generation, I don't know if you're familiar with that book at all, but just the, the way that this generation that's Gen Z and young millennials has more anxiety than any generation ever before.

00:54:32.020 --> 00:54:37.740
 More people on anxiety medicines because of it, and if you're on it, that's not to say bad on you.

00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:40.700
 It's just, there's an epidemic, you know, of anxiety.

00:54:41.540 --> 00:54:52.900
 And so I do think the constant barrage of what, what the world is offering me and what I could be and I'm not can be very damaging to the psyche, the psyche.

00:54:53.620 --> 00:54:56.360
 And I, of course, I have three Gen Z kids.

00:54:57.280 --> 00:54:59.800
 And so I've watched it, you know, I've watched it up close and personal.

00:54:59.800 --> 00:55:05.580
 I have to regularly tell them that, that what is out there is not real in terms of the images.

00:55:05.580 --> 00:55:10.600
 Like I think the images, now the language, the conversations oftentimes are more real, right?

00:55:10.660 --> 00:55:13.980
 So that's the, the both and of the, of the strength and the weaknesses.

00:55:14.220 --> 00:55:17.080
 So, um, that, that's my concern.

00:55:17.320 --> 00:55:21.040
 And, and I think the rates of suicide have gone up as a result.

00:55:21.680 --> 00:55:25.300
 Um, I don't think that's the only reason I think we live in a crazy world.

00:55:25.300 --> 00:55:26.800
 I think there's all kinds of stuff.

00:55:26.800 --> 00:55:27.060
 Right.

00:55:27.120 --> 00:55:29.020
 But I think it does contribute.

00:55:29.360 --> 00:55:31.140
 And so it's something we need to pay attention to.

00:55:31.920 --> 00:55:32.400
 Yeah.

00:55:32.400 --> 00:55:37.140
 That comparison game is never helpful is the worst thing you can do.

00:55:37.260 --> 00:55:46.000
 And it's so hard because when you're comparing yourself, like your worst moments to everyone's best, you're obviously going to think, man, my life sucks.

00:55:46.200 --> 00:55:47.500
 This is, this is horrible.

00:55:47.500 --> 00:55:48.740
 Like, look at this person.

00:55:48.740 --> 00:55:51.180
 They're going on vacation all the time or, you know, whatever.

00:55:51.440 --> 00:55:55.240
 And like, we do, but that's not a true comparison.

00:55:55.820 --> 00:55:57.800
 And we just, we need to like really cut that out.

00:55:57.920 --> 00:56:04.600
 And that goes back to really being watchful of yourself and how you're feeling and, and then sharing that with others.

00:56:04.600 --> 00:56:10.300
 I think I saw earlier Leighton shared about like, we, you know, you have to talk about mental health.

00:56:10.380 --> 00:56:14.880
 You have to talk about these things and then you're able to, to help in those areas.

00:56:14.880 --> 00:56:17.000
 Like it's, it's talked about so much more.

00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:25.680
 And I think that's, it is a part of why we see so many people like are coming to terms, maybe is a good way to put it, that they struggle with it.

00:56:25.860 --> 00:56:37.060
 Because I'm going to bet that there are a lot of people who are in the above generations that struggle with those things, but there's a whole other stigma that's attached to it.

00:56:37.760 --> 00:56:45.420
 And so that's a whole other conversation, but it definitely, it definitely is a struggle that I like, I think we're hearing about it more.

00:56:45.420 --> 00:56:48.480
 It's always been there, mental health, all the different things.

00:56:48.480 --> 00:56:53.240
 It's always been a struggle, but we definitely need to talk about it more.

00:56:53.240 --> 00:56:58.460
 And that's why I've been so excited about this episode and just all of these season.

00:56:59.320 --> 00:57:07.140
 But I would love to just go to, if someone is listening, whether it's like they're live right now or listening on demand,

00:57:07.140 --> 00:57:22.000
 but they're struggling with like feeling down or maybe thoughts of suicide ideation, what is something like encouraging or just something you would want to tell them if you were sitting across from them?

00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:23.620
 What would be something you would say?

00:57:24.320 --> 00:57:29.080
 Well, if I was sitting across from them, I would say, you, you're a big deal.

00:57:29.080 --> 00:57:32.440
 Well, you are fearfully and wonderfully made by God.

00:57:32.760 --> 00:57:34.400
 You are an image bearer of God.

00:57:34.960 --> 00:57:38.180
 You are remarkably wonderful.

00:57:38.860 --> 00:57:41.860
 And your life really, really matters.

00:57:42.620 --> 00:57:45.960
 And you being present in the world affects the world.

00:57:46.100 --> 00:57:47.240
 It changes things.

00:57:47.480 --> 00:57:59.020
 You have such a great opportunity to be who God meant you to be and to not have you around would be one of the greatest losses.

00:58:00.060 --> 00:58:08.860
 And so please, please give yourself to me and others by staying with us and being present and living fully.

00:58:09.220 --> 00:58:11.240
 And please let me get you some help.

00:58:12.300 --> 00:58:17.700
 I want to direct you to people who can tell you the same thing but can do even more than I can do for you.

00:58:18.080 --> 00:58:27.020
 And I want to get them some help and connect them to probably a really trusted counselor who can really, you know, walk with them through their journey.

00:58:27.940 --> 00:58:31.420
 I also want to make sure they have a really good community that will keep telling them the same thing.

00:58:32.320 --> 00:58:38.540
 Because sadly, we surround ourselves with people often who don't repeat that message enough into our lives.

00:58:38.800 --> 00:58:39.920
 And man, do we need that.

00:58:39.980 --> 00:58:41.180
 We need that so badly.

00:58:41.420 --> 00:58:43.840
 I always take people to Psalm 139.

00:58:44.160 --> 00:58:46.240
 You know, it's like you can't run away from God.

00:58:46.380 --> 00:58:47.220
 He's with you.

00:58:47.320 --> 00:58:48.280
 He's right next to you.

00:58:48.440 --> 00:58:50.020
 And he loves you so much.

00:58:50.080 --> 00:58:51.080
 And I quoted it already.

00:58:51.320 --> 00:58:54.220
 He fearfully and wonderfully made you in your mother's womb.

00:58:54.900 --> 00:58:57.880
 So, yeah, that's probably what I would say to them.

00:59:00.060 --> 00:59:01.200
 Yeah, that's awesome.

00:59:01.500 --> 00:59:03.500
 I'm like, I don't know where to go from there because it's so good.

00:59:05.200 --> 00:59:08.360
 Roz actually, you know, they're talking online.

00:59:09.260 --> 00:59:17.980
 Flatcap Layton says, if your pastor can't admit struggles, if your pastor can't be authentic, how can people in the church feel safe to admit struggles?

00:59:17.980 --> 00:59:29.380
 And so, like, the more authentic you are in your community, like, the more transparent that people are going to be as well because they're going to feel safe because they're empathetic.

00:59:29.480 --> 00:59:30.880
 They're relating to you with that.

00:59:32.340 --> 00:59:40.040
 Roz replies, something I find helpful to remember is, although I have passion to care for people, I'm a people too.

00:59:40.720 --> 00:59:46.400
 And so, you know, we're in that same battle, which is, once again, that provides the empathy.

00:59:46.800 --> 00:59:54.820
 If you can relationally connect with people, if you can be empathetic, you have just so much opportunity.

00:59:55.280 --> 00:59:56.240
 I want to ask one more question.

00:59:56.480 --> 00:59:57.380
 And I know we're going long here.

00:59:57.380 --> 01:00:01.120
 Jeff, before you do that, I wanted to say something because you said it, but I want to make sure we hear it.

01:00:01.560 --> 01:00:04.340
 Like, vulnerability begets vulnerability.

01:00:05.420 --> 01:00:05.940
 That's good.

01:00:06.660 --> 01:00:13.780
 So when I'm willing to, I mean, I started in vulnerability from the very top of this thing, saying, like, I had my own journey, right?

01:00:13.900 --> 01:00:15.140
 And so what does that do?

01:00:15.200 --> 01:00:16.700
 People are like, oh, he gets me.

01:00:17.140 --> 01:00:17.820
 He understands.

01:00:17.980 --> 01:00:19.080
 He's gone through this.

01:00:19.500 --> 01:00:20.320
 And that's what you just said.

01:00:20.320 --> 01:00:23.440
 But I want to say it that we can't say that one enough.

01:00:23.440 --> 01:00:28.560
 If you're wondering why no one shows up with you, it's because maybe you haven't learned how to show up yourself.

01:00:28.780 --> 01:00:31.660
 Yeah, you know, it's it's interesting.

01:00:31.860 --> 01:00:39.600
 I over the course of the year and I've talked about it on this podcast, like I had bouts of depression.

01:00:40.180 --> 01:00:43.940
 Not I would not say that I was suicidal or any tendencies.

01:00:44.160 --> 01:00:45.500
 I don't think it got to that level.

01:00:46.620 --> 01:00:50.000
 But honestly, like I was trying to figure out why I was depressed.

01:00:50.280 --> 01:00:52.420
 I internalized that I didn't talk about it.

01:00:52.460 --> 01:00:55.960
 I was trying to quantify it like it was a geometry equation.

01:00:56.080 --> 01:00:57.340
 How do I solve this problem?

01:00:57.980 --> 01:01:03.920
 And it was not until I jumped on a call with Andy Mage, who's one of the leaders of the Church Digital.

01:01:03.920 --> 01:01:06.040
 And I said, hey, you're a leader in this organization.

01:01:06.040 --> 01:01:08.340
 I need to tell you I'm depressed.

01:01:09.640 --> 01:01:17.940
 Literally saying those words to Andy Mage and having several other conversations with leaders and other people relieved 70, 80 percent of my depression.

01:01:18.520 --> 01:01:24.360
 Like getting it out there and taking the stigma off it removed it from my life.

01:01:24.460 --> 01:01:32.820
 And now as I'm having I mean, shoot, I had a conversation about this earlier this morning with people that were struggling with with depression and anger.

01:01:32.820 --> 01:01:43.400
 And, you know, it gives you it gives you license to listen, to understand and to build trust, enabling you to eventually speak into it.

01:01:44.080 --> 01:01:50.820
 I'm not not not trying to solve them in 30 seconds like it's a microwave, but allowing them to process.

01:01:51.020 --> 01:01:53.560
 I literally I told this guy, this guy's literally bombing this morning.

01:01:53.820 --> 01:02:00.940
 He was so freaking ticked, angry, like if I was in the room, I would have backed up because I thought he was going to punch something.

01:02:01.040 --> 01:02:02.100
 This is how angry this guy was.

01:02:02.400 --> 01:02:04.680
 This is the other strengths about being on digital.

01:02:04.820 --> 01:02:05.060
 Digital.

01:02:05.280 --> 01:02:05.640
 Exactly.

01:02:05.820 --> 01:02:12.900
 But I mean, literally, that was like he's he's like I was literally like, your life sucks.

01:02:13.300 --> 01:02:14.060
 Sorry to tell you.

01:02:14.840 --> 01:02:16.740
 And you can't fix it right now.

01:02:16.760 --> 01:02:17.800
 You're going to have to deal with it.

01:02:17.820 --> 01:02:20.440
 You have to live with live with being in this space in this time.

01:02:20.780 --> 01:02:22.600
 And he did not like to hear that.

01:02:22.600 --> 01:02:25.120
 But that's that's what he needed to hear and to deal with.

01:02:25.480 --> 01:02:26.680
 But thank you for that, Jeff.

01:02:26.700 --> 01:02:27.220
 I appreciate it.

01:02:27.260 --> 01:02:28.380
 I will last one last question.

01:02:28.820 --> 01:02:29.320
 If I can.

01:02:29.460 --> 01:02:30.940
 I'm taking advantage of time.

01:02:32.140 --> 01:02:32.800
 Sis Pineapple.

01:02:32.960 --> 01:02:34.760
 Actually, I have no idea who Sis Pineapple is.

01:02:34.940 --> 01:02:35.680
 I need to meet you.

01:02:35.740 --> 01:02:44.580
 But Sis Pineapple says it's tricky when it's plain to see that people need serious help, but refuse all support and help.

01:02:45.000 --> 01:02:49.620
 She's actually in the place, she says, with a family member going through a situation like that.

01:02:51.600 --> 01:02:58.520
 How do we cope and manage when we know the answer, but they're not willing to listen?

01:02:58.800 --> 01:03:01.120
 Like, how do we handle that?

01:03:01.660 --> 01:03:12.760
 It's not it's not emotional damage where I'm worried about protecting myself, but I'm weeping inside knowing that that things are falling apart for my friend or my loved one or my associate.

01:03:12.760 --> 01:03:14.900
 And they're not they're not they're not answering.

01:03:15.020 --> 01:03:17.900
 Like, do we call the suicide line for them?

01:03:18.140 --> 01:03:18.300
 What?

01:03:18.400 --> 01:03:23.560
 And I know you've had a couple of situations where you've maybe in hindsight have seen some of this stuff happen.

01:03:24.520 --> 01:03:27.860
 What do you wish you had done in these situations that went south?

01:03:28.020 --> 01:03:37.020
 Like what what's your inner critic saying, what's your in hindsight, maybe what would you have have handled if you had the opportunity to do it differently?

01:03:38.560 --> 01:03:40.520
 Well, you asked a lot of questions there.

01:03:40.640 --> 01:03:45.740
 So, I mean, there's the one the one question when, you know, you feel like you can't do anything about it.

01:03:46.060 --> 01:03:55.620
 There is a reality that we have to accept our limitations and know that we can only we can't we can't change somebody like we can be available.

01:03:55.740 --> 01:03:56.380
 We can present.

01:03:56.540 --> 01:03:59.500
 We can do everything possible to try to be be what they need.

01:03:59.500 --> 01:04:04.040
 But we have to embrace our limitations at some point, which is really hard.

01:04:04.180 --> 01:04:10.760
 But if you don't, you will you'll put way too much on yourself to be a savior for everybody else.

01:04:10.760 --> 01:04:11.840
 So that's important.

01:04:11.840 --> 01:04:22.620
 But in terms of asking the question, when when you think someone's potentially suicidal and they don't want to get any help, I think we do need to go get help for them.

01:04:22.820 --> 01:04:32.300
 And if I could do it over again, I would have I would have called the suicide hotline and said, my friend needs help.

01:04:32.400 --> 01:04:33.660
 He won't go get help.

01:04:34.200 --> 01:04:35.340
 What do I do?

01:04:35.660 --> 01:04:39.880
 And I would have taken their counsel to do exactly what to ask.

01:04:39.940 --> 01:04:46.580
 And probably he probably needed to be put into a facility where he could be watched 24 seven and cared for.

01:04:47.320 --> 01:04:49.260
 And he was watched 24 seven.

01:04:49.380 --> 01:04:55.540
 We had somebody watch him 24 seven, but he told everybody he was fine and he wasn't.

01:04:55.700 --> 01:04:58.620
 And so there was like a one hour block that didn't get covered.

01:04:58.940 --> 01:05:00.360
 And that's when he took his life.

01:05:00.680 --> 01:05:06.460
 And so, you know, I just I don't I don't I won't trust somebody saying they're fine anymore.

01:05:06.800 --> 01:05:07.520
 That's the other thing.

01:05:07.800 --> 01:05:10.240
 When someone says they're OK, but I don't think they're OK.

01:05:10.760 --> 01:05:15.500
 I got to assume they're not OK and not let anybody do a self-assessment.

01:05:15.860 --> 01:05:21.780
 I think when it gets to that level, I think we need to have medical help, professional help, give an assessment instead of us.

01:05:22.280 --> 01:05:24.720
 So that's what I would have done differently there.

01:05:24.780 --> 01:05:26.160
 I would have actually called in help.

01:05:27.240 --> 01:05:29.400
 Now, there's it was very complicated, too.

01:05:29.620 --> 01:05:32.800
 He was three tours of duty in Afghanistan, Iraq.

01:05:33.080 --> 01:05:38.520
 He was on medication from psychiatrists that didn't take care of the meds well.

01:05:38.640 --> 01:05:39.920
 He tried to get in to get help.

01:05:40.000 --> 01:05:44.660
 They said he couldn't get in for two months because it was the VA Veterans Association.

01:05:44.800 --> 01:05:48.380
 So they're like there's a whole bunch of stuff that made this even more complicated.

01:05:48.740 --> 01:05:53.380
 But looking back, if I could look back, the inner critic says should have brought him to the hospital.

01:05:55.580 --> 01:05:57.060
 And he said he didn't want to.

01:05:57.100 --> 01:05:59.420
 And I said I should have just said, I don't care.

01:05:59.840 --> 01:06:00.900
 I love you too much.

01:06:01.300 --> 01:06:02.380
 We're going right now.

01:06:02.720 --> 01:06:05.320
 So I think we thought we could keep an eye on him.

01:06:05.520 --> 01:06:06.680
 And that wasn't enough.

01:06:07.420 --> 01:06:17.380
 So, yeah, yeah, man, this has been such a good conversation, such so informative, so so transparent.

01:06:17.660 --> 01:06:23.200
 Jeff, man, I want to thank you for it for your time dealing with a very difficult subject.

01:06:23.200 --> 01:06:26.720
 I want to Megan, this was this was a great call.

01:06:26.820 --> 01:06:29.440
 And I'm glad we went down this road to the to the stream chat.

01:06:30.580 --> 01:06:34.020
 I, you know, it's just it's been a lot of fun here.

01:06:34.600 --> 01:06:35.080
 I don't know.

01:06:35.140 --> 01:06:35.760
 Is that wrong?

01:06:35.860 --> 01:06:37.380
 A lot of fun talking about suicide.

01:06:37.380 --> 01:06:44.940
 But it's been it's been a great experience dealing with and and talking about a very sensitive subject.

01:06:44.940 --> 01:06:48.000
 And so thank you for the time doing this.

01:06:48.460 --> 01:06:52.880
 If once again, we're not experts in this at all.

01:06:53.340 --> 01:06:58.280
 We're we're we're people that are walking down this road and doing ministry in this space just like you are.

01:06:58.280 --> 01:07:03.880
 And so take it for what it's worth, you know, pray heading into these conversations.

01:07:03.880 --> 01:07:07.320
 That's the Holy Spirit to guide you and maybe learn a little bit from the experience.

01:07:08.120 --> 01:07:10.220
 And just to reiterate, yeah.

01:07:10.640 --> 01:07:22.380
 Call that suicide hotline for somebody who's not responsive and let the suicide hotline help you walk through that situation as they are prepared to do.

01:07:24.240 --> 01:07:25.960
 And so thank you for that.

01:07:26.100 --> 01:07:29.100
 So, hey, we're going to land a plane here for this.

01:07:29.180 --> 01:07:30.460
 This has been we've got.

01:07:31.600 --> 01:07:32.240
 You know what?

01:07:32.240 --> 01:07:33.480
 That's actually another thing.

01:07:33.540 --> 01:07:34.120
 Don't worry about it.

01:07:34.320 --> 01:07:39.740
 But, hey, we've got a great lineup coming up here in the next couple of weeks.

01:07:39.740 --> 01:07:45.360
 And so stay tuned to the Church Digital Discord, discord.thechurch.digital to get tapped in.

01:07:45.400 --> 01:07:47.320
 What's coming up next on the podcast.

01:07:47.480 --> 01:07:49.820
 But Jeff, thanks for hanging out with us.

01:07:49.860 --> 01:07:51.360
 Megan, once again, appreciate your time.

01:07:51.420 --> 01:07:55.160
 We're going to land the plane for Megan, for Jeff, the other one.

01:07:55.220 --> 01:07:56.300
 This is Jeff with The Church Digital.

01:07:56.440 --> 01:07:57.600
 Thanks for hanging out with us today.

01:07:58.100 --> 01:07:59.040
 We'll see you next time on the show.

01:07:59.180 --> 01:07:59.720
 You all have a good one.

01:07:59.720 --> 01:08:13.560
 We'll see you next time on the show.