WEBVTT 00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:02.420 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:03.400 --> 00:00:07.240 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church. 00:00:07.620 --> 00:00:11.080 But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. 00:00:11.700 --> 00:00:13.300 Is disciple making possible digitally? 00:00:13.760 --> 00:00:15.760 How should we approach the digital mission field? 00:00:16.060 --> 00:00:18.620 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? 00:00:19.060 --> 00:00:22.940 Oh, and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this? 00:00:23.660 --> 00:00:25.840 Whether you're a big or small church, 00:00:25.840 --> 00:00:30.680 the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, 00:00:31.040 --> 00:00:32.520 digitally and physically. 00:00:33.040 --> 00:00:34.680 And now here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:00:35.040 --> 00:00:37.540 Welcome in to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:37.800 --> 00:00:42.760 This is episode 314, and I obviously am not the man, the myth, the legend, Jeff. 00:00:42.900 --> 00:00:44.300 You know him and you love him. 00:00:44.400 --> 00:00:48.300 He is actually off in Korea doing things with the Lausanne movement, 00:00:48.300 --> 00:00:50.660 and it's been totally awesome and wonderful and exciting. 00:00:51.160 --> 00:00:58.240 But he asked me and my pal Ashley from The Hybrid Disciple to take over a couple of these episodes 00:00:58.240 --> 00:01:02.740 and really bring you kind of the other side of what we've been working on in TCD. 00:01:03.020 --> 00:01:06.560 And man, we have an incredible episode for you today. 00:01:06.760 --> 00:01:09.020 Now, if you've never listened to The Hybrid Disciple, 00:01:09.140 --> 00:01:16.940 what we are is essentially a show that is all about bridging the gap between digital and physical discipleship. 00:01:16.940 --> 00:01:20.620 I think a lot of the times when we start talking about the digital environment, 00:01:20.620 --> 00:01:25.660 we lose the forest for the trees a little bit and forget that there is an actual incarnational, 00:01:25.820 --> 00:01:30.560 in-person thing that happens when we get face-to-face with each other. 00:01:30.800 --> 00:01:36.800 But at the same time, there's also this digital component that we need to remember 00:01:36.800 --> 00:01:40.140 is highly influential in our lives right now. 00:01:40.220 --> 00:01:43.140 And so what we're doing with The Hybrid Disciple is we're trying to bridge that gap. 00:01:43.140 --> 00:01:47.600 And Ashley, if you've never met Ashley Lagos, she is amazing, an amazing teacher, 00:01:47.720 --> 00:01:53.100 an amazing preacher, an amazing influencer on TikTok and also on Instagram. 00:01:53.100 --> 00:01:56.320 But she's also one of the founders of 12 Church Online. 00:01:56.480 --> 00:02:00.600 Man, all her stuff is going to be located in the show notes or the doodly-doos below me. 00:02:01.040 --> 00:02:05.420 And if you're listening to this on audio, it's going to be in the actual show notes of this. 00:02:06.080 --> 00:02:06.680 Go check her out. 00:02:06.700 --> 00:02:12.540 Go check everything out that she does because I cannot begin to tell you how influential she has been 00:02:12.540 --> 00:02:14.200 in my life and in my discipleship. 00:02:14.280 --> 00:02:16.900 So Ashley, if you are listening, which I know you are, thank you so much. 00:02:17.340 --> 00:02:19.320 And this is kind of a resurrection of Hybrid Disciple. 00:02:19.380 --> 00:02:21.200 We have taken a little bit of an extended break. 00:02:21.320 --> 00:02:24.580 We've both had some life change experience things happening. 00:02:25.260 --> 00:02:31.680 And we're in talks, or we were in talks, and hopefully we'll be back into doing season three. 00:02:31.880 --> 00:02:35.180 But this episode you're going to hear is actually our interview with Ian Simpkins. 00:02:35.340 --> 00:02:40.100 Now, we're going to talk about Ian in just a few minutes, actually, in the episode. 00:02:40.820 --> 00:02:45.840 But Ian is, during this episode, you're going to hear me kind of fangirling all over Ian. 00:02:46.040 --> 00:02:51.240 And that is because I have been following this dude on Instagram for, I don't know, three or four years. 00:02:51.240 --> 00:03:00.140 And he has the best way of being a pastoral heart in the midst of extremely, extremely trying circumstances. 00:03:00.440 --> 00:03:04.100 And he's also got this real sort of gentle way of putting everything. 00:03:04.380 --> 00:03:12.280 He's one of those pastors that you can just imagine lives an unhurried lifestyle, almost that Jesus called us to. 00:03:12.600 --> 00:03:16.100 And I'm thrilled that we got the chance to interview him. 00:03:16.220 --> 00:03:17.620 Now, this is, again, a couple of months old. 00:03:17.760 --> 00:03:22.940 But the fact that he was able to spend an hour with us was just so precious. 00:03:23.180 --> 00:03:26.980 And I was kind of going back through this episode before I recorded this interview 00:03:26.980 --> 00:03:29.300 and just remembered how awesome it was to talk to him. 00:03:29.300 --> 00:03:31.280 So, Ian, as well, thank you. 00:03:31.380 --> 00:03:32.280 I know you're listening to this. 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:33.840 Thank you again for this episode. 00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:35.840 I'd love to connect with you again on season three. 00:03:35.980 --> 00:03:37.140 That's my little plug there. 00:03:37.640 --> 00:03:38.820 I'll be reaching out to your brother. 00:03:38.960 --> 00:03:40.920 But, hey, enough about all of that. 00:03:41.000 --> 00:03:45.080 I'd love for you to get into this episode, episode 314, 00:03:45.780 --> 00:03:48.960 with myself, Ashley Lagos, and Ian Simpkins. 00:03:48.960 --> 00:04:09.100 Welcome back to The Hybrid Disciple. 00:04:09.200 --> 00:04:09.560 I'm Andy. 00:04:09.620 --> 00:04:10.340 I'm one of the hosts here. 00:04:10.420 --> 00:04:14.200 We're going to be joined by Ashley in just a short second. 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:21.280 And, man, do we have a doozy to kick off really what is our first real episode of season two. 00:04:21.340 --> 00:04:24.900 Yeah, I know we did an intro last week and all those fun things. 00:04:24.900 --> 00:04:28.040 But this, this is the start of season two. 00:04:28.040 --> 00:04:32.700 And, man, we, we get off to a flyer, as the English like to say. 00:04:32.820 --> 00:04:35.220 We, we kick this one off with a bang. 00:04:35.300 --> 00:04:37.240 This is our good friend Ian Simpkins. 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:42.200 Now, if you know nothing about Ian, I, Ashley kind of gives this advice a little bit, 00:04:42.240 --> 00:04:45.280 like, right as soon as she starts introing him. 00:04:45.400 --> 00:04:48.220 But you need to pause this podcast or pause this YouTube video. 00:04:48.380 --> 00:04:50.320 You need to go to his social media stuff, 00:04:50.360 --> 00:04:53.540 which will be in the description of this video or in the show notes or whatever. 00:04:53.920 --> 00:04:55.880 Go to his socials and just click follow. 00:04:56.080 --> 00:05:00.520 Trust me, it is going to be the best follow that you have on any social media platform. 00:05:00.520 --> 00:05:02.200 Ian is a humble dude. 00:05:02.320 --> 00:05:02.940 He's funny. 00:05:03.340 --> 00:05:05.500 He's irreverent when he needs to be irreverent. 00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:08.480 He's amazingly disciple-oriented. 00:05:08.780 --> 00:05:12.020 And most importantly, he loves Jesus fiercely. 00:05:12.180 --> 00:05:16.500 And he's showing that in all of his social media presences and all of his posts. 00:05:16.700 --> 00:05:19.460 And the thing that we get into in this conversation is really where 00:05:19.460 --> 00:05:24.620 digital and physical branch into something like social media in particular. 00:05:24.620 --> 00:05:28.720 And this is something that both Ashley and I are super, super passionate about. 00:05:28.720 --> 00:05:31.160 So you don't need to hear me talking anymore. 00:05:31.380 --> 00:05:34.400 Let's get to the interview with Ian Simpkins right now. 00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:38.680 Well, we were just remarking on our names here on The Hybrid Disciples. 00:05:38.760 --> 00:05:39.880 Now, a little peel back behind the curtain. 00:05:39.980 --> 00:05:41.340 We use a program called Riverside. 00:05:41.500 --> 00:05:42.380 We love Riverside. 00:05:42.460 --> 00:05:44.980 Riverside is kind of one of those remote recording things. 00:05:45.100 --> 00:05:48.540 And Ashley and I have been doing Riverside for, I feel like, six years now. 00:05:48.620 --> 00:05:49.840 It's probably been a year or so. 00:05:50.840 --> 00:05:53.880 And it's kind of like Zoom where you have to title yourself. 00:05:53.980 --> 00:05:54.420 You have to name. 00:05:54.540 --> 00:05:55.360 So I'm Andy. 00:05:55.620 --> 00:05:56.360 And that's Ashley. 00:05:56.500 --> 00:06:00.960 And our special guest today, we're going to let him introduce himself with his Christian 00:06:00.960 --> 00:06:06.600 name, but his online name right now that I see is Admiral Soggy Bottoms. 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:11.280 So without further ado, let me welcome Admiral Soggy Bottoms to the program. 00:06:12.400 --> 00:06:13.600 Admiral, yes. 00:06:14.440 --> 00:06:17.420 How long have you been in the service and where did you get your rank from? 00:06:18.080 --> 00:06:20.960 Boy, best, best intro I've ever experienced. 00:06:21.160 --> 00:06:21.560 My goodness. 00:06:22.340 --> 00:06:22.680 You're welcome. 00:06:23.240 --> 00:06:28.640 No, we have Ian Simpkins is joining us today on The Hybrid Disciple. 00:06:28.740 --> 00:06:34.540 Now, Ashley, if you could kind of walk me through where you found out about Ian and then how you 00:06:34.540 --> 00:06:35.980 recommended him to me. 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:44.420 Yeah, I, so, you know, I am constantly as a content creator in the Christian space, the 00:06:44.420 --> 00:06:49.900 algorithm puts people in front of me and one of the people that popped up was Ian. 00:06:50.120 --> 00:06:55.880 And if you do not follow him, first off, you must stop what you're doing, pause this, get 00:06:55.880 --> 00:07:00.680 out of this completely, go directly to Instagram and find him. 00:07:02.180 --> 00:07:06.240 Because I am a very sharpshooter, as you all are learning as you listen to the podcast. 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:08.560 I, I like things to be very direct. 00:07:08.820 --> 00:07:10.640 I don't want a bunch of fluff. 00:07:10.980 --> 00:07:14.820 I just want you to tell me whatever it is that you want me to learn or know. 00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:17.580 And, and great. 00:07:17.580 --> 00:07:22.680 And so the, I don't remember what the very first Instagram post of yours that I saw, Ian, 00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:27.540 but I, it was like a one-liner and I was like, screw this guy. 00:07:27.640 --> 00:07:30.880 He's not going to even pay any attention to this. 00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:39.920 And I say that with absolute honor and respect because one of my mentors that I, that I follow 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:45.180 very closely since I was 18, 19 years old, he has always said that if you sit in a church 00:07:45.180 --> 00:07:50.940 consistently week after week and you are never offended, you are never, you never feel uncomfortable. 00:07:50.940 --> 00:07:56.940 You never feel that twinge of like, ugh, then you are in the wrong church because the person, 00:07:57.320 --> 00:08:02.340 anyone that is speaking to you from a spiritual perspective should have things that they say 00:08:02.340 --> 00:08:06.920 that kind of make you like twinge just a little bit. 00:08:07.380 --> 00:08:10.860 And not in, not because they're overtly off. 00:08:10.940 --> 00:08:13.360 Now, I mean, I have sat in churches before where somebody will say something. 00:08:13.460 --> 00:08:15.000 I'm like, oh, that is not biblical. 00:08:15.320 --> 00:08:20.800 That is like, that's like, that is clearly not theologically sound. 00:08:22.340 --> 00:08:28.660 But to be able, but the stuff that you put out consistently challenges me in the best possible 00:08:28.660 --> 00:08:29.100 way. 00:08:29.100 --> 00:08:36.580 And, and it's done in such a direct non, like no thrills, like his content guys, if you haven't 00:08:36.580 --> 00:08:40.540 seen it, it's like single line white text on a black screen. 00:08:40.540 --> 00:08:46.080 And it's beautiful, but every single post, there's something there that just, that makes 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:47.480 me pause and think and reflect. 00:08:47.720 --> 00:08:50.480 And then I am a TikTok person. 00:08:50.740 --> 00:08:56.340 So I, I will have on more than one occasion will be like, I read this thing on his page 00:08:56.340 --> 00:09:01.080 and I always try to tag you, but like your TikTok, what's up with TikTok, man? 00:09:01.280 --> 00:09:07.020 Like, even if you, even if you just repurpose it, but we can go into that later. 00:09:07.020 --> 00:09:13.980 But like, I've tagged multiple times on TikTok, um, just because I'm like this, I really wish 00:09:13.980 --> 00:09:14.800 this was my thought. 00:09:14.940 --> 00:09:15.740 It's not my thought. 00:09:16.280 --> 00:09:16.940 It's my thought. 00:09:17.580 --> 00:09:18.980 But it's so good. 00:09:18.980 --> 00:09:21.760 And it's not on TikTok that I'm going to repurpose it and credit him. 00:09:22.040 --> 00:09:27.200 But anyway, I was telling them whenever I hit up Ian to ask him if he'd be on the hybrid 00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:27.620 disciple. 00:09:27.740 --> 00:09:29.440 And he responded that he would. 00:09:29.500 --> 00:09:31.640 I was so excited about through my phone. 00:09:31.740 --> 00:09:35.440 I was like having a total content creator, like fangirl moment. 00:09:35.700 --> 00:09:39.140 So, um, yes, that's the summation of that. 00:09:40.220 --> 00:09:40.680 Am I blushing? 00:09:40.840 --> 00:09:41.680 I feel like I'm blushing. 00:09:42.340 --> 00:09:43.900 So I'm going to, I'll color correct. 00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:46.940 I'll color correct this edit just a little bit, uh, to make sure that there's no red. 00:09:47.260 --> 00:09:48.780 Uh, so Ian, first off, thanks. 00:09:48.880 --> 00:09:52.040 Uh, after that glowing compliment, uh, sandwich that you just got there. 00:09:52.140 --> 00:09:54.460 Um, thanks so much for joining us here. 00:09:54.460 --> 00:09:59.640 And like, I guess like, let's start off a little bit first off, what is the philosophy 00:09:59.640 --> 00:10:01.160 behind your ministry? 00:10:01.160 --> 00:10:04.800 And give us a little background on how you actually got to what you're doing right now. 00:10:05.220 --> 00:10:05.440 Yeah. 00:10:05.560 --> 00:10:09.600 Even asking about the philosophy is probably giving me more credit than you should. 00:10:09.840 --> 00:10:16.180 I, I honestly feel like I, I fell backwards into all of it. 00:10:16.180 --> 00:10:18.160 And that's the, that's the honest to God truth. 00:10:18.160 --> 00:10:20.980 I, uh, it was June, 2020. 00:10:20.980 --> 00:10:27.700 It was, uh, it was during George Floyd and everyone was doing these, uh, these black boxes. 00:10:27.920 --> 00:10:28.280 Right. 00:10:28.680 --> 00:10:31.460 And I, no one knew which way it was up. 00:10:31.520 --> 00:10:32.420 Everyone's trying to figure it out. 00:10:32.500 --> 00:10:36.340 Everyone had kind of their entrenched positions and they're sort of like tribal certainties, 00:10:36.420 --> 00:10:38.660 which, you know, hasn't gone away. 00:10:38.740 --> 00:10:39.660 I didn't really know what to do. 00:10:39.700 --> 00:10:40.780 I had a radio show at the time. 00:10:41.240 --> 00:10:45.540 And so I said to my co-host, I said, I think you need to spend the next week or two doing 00:10:45.540 --> 00:10:47.420 a whole lot more listening than talking. 00:10:48.120 --> 00:10:53.640 And so we had just a bunch of, uh, uh, men and women of color in our city to kind of 00:10:53.640 --> 00:11:00.680 help us, um, understand some of what was going on that I, I knew just as a, as a, as a white 00:11:00.680 --> 00:11:04.720 male pastor, there's probably all sorts of subtexts and background that I just wasn't going to 00:11:04.720 --> 00:11:05.060 get. 00:11:05.180 --> 00:11:07.100 So I just did a lot of listening and I felt really convicted. 00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:10.240 I was like, I think, I don't think the world needs my words right now. 00:11:10.780 --> 00:11:16.100 And it was after a couple of weeks of these like really honest, uh, candid, beautiful, 00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:17.800 sometimes heart wrenching conversations. 00:11:18.400 --> 00:11:21.520 I distilled some of that down to a sentence or two. 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:26.440 And I have a real, uh, allergy to just adding to the noise. 00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:31.620 I think I grew up in a really loud Irish Catholic family, you know, where everyone's kind of talking 00:11:31.620 --> 00:11:32.240 over each other. 00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:37.000 Like, I, I feel like I got those words out of the way early on and I just don't feel this 00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:39.080 like it's like, Oh, I should also be contributing. 00:11:39.720 --> 00:11:44.820 So I was okay with just sort of sitting silently for a couple of weeks and had one or two thoughts. 00:11:44.900 --> 00:11:47.140 So I was like, ah, this was really helpful to me. 00:11:47.220 --> 00:11:48.480 Maybe this will be helpful to someone else. 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:53.520 And I'm like, so design impaired and technologically impaired. 00:11:53.580 --> 00:11:57.620 I just opened, I just opened up Apple notes and typed a thought. 00:11:57.620 --> 00:11:59.100 And I was like, Oh, we'll see if this is helpful. 00:11:59.680 --> 00:12:06.080 And was so blown away, not only just by people's kindness, but the, the amount of people that are 00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:10.840 like, that is a very helpful way to think this through, or that has given me language to a 00:12:10.840 --> 00:12:13.680 thing that I've been feeling, but didn't know how to articulate. 00:12:14.400 --> 00:12:16.940 Um, please keep going like that. 00:12:17.000 --> 00:12:20.920 I remember that being like really surprising because I had no intentions, which is, it's 00:12:20.920 --> 00:12:25.820 funny now because you know, years later people will ask me questions like, Hey, do you mind 00:12:25.820 --> 00:12:26.920 if I steal your aesthetic? 00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:29.360 And I'm like, you're going to have to ask Steve jobs. 00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:32.820 Cause it's just the notes app on my iPhone. 00:12:32.820 --> 00:12:34.320 I don't like, I don't own the aesthetic. 00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:39.860 Like I, it's purely out of laziness or a lack of knowledge or creativity. 00:12:40.280 --> 00:12:44.100 And people have told me like, well, the black square white text actually kind of stops you 00:12:44.100 --> 00:12:48.760 in the doom scroll with everything else kind of popping and bouncing and screaming and whatever. 00:12:49.420 --> 00:12:54.200 Um, but it really was birthed out of a, I don't think I have the bandwidth to be going 00:12:54.200 --> 00:12:56.140 into Canva and trying to figure something out. 00:12:56.140 --> 00:12:58.700 And I'm, I knew that I would sink more time than would be helpful. 00:12:59.240 --> 00:13:04.000 So the notes, they're just like a reflection of like what I'm actually processing with 00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:04.580 real people. 00:13:04.680 --> 00:13:06.480 You know, I'm a pastor and practitioner first. 00:13:06.480 --> 00:13:11.600 So it's like, it's either like, uh, I'm working on a sermon and want to see if this idea lands 00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:15.600 or it's following a sermon and something resonated that I wasn't anticipating. 00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:16.940 So I tried to distill it down. 00:13:17.020 --> 00:13:21.440 So they're, they're all birthed out of like a very real place with real people in real 00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:21.680 time. 00:13:21.680 --> 00:13:24.460 And that's, that's kind of what's, what's kept me going, I think. 00:13:25.060 --> 00:13:27.160 So what are you doing right now? 00:13:27.180 --> 00:13:28.080 You said you're a pastor. 00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:30.740 Like what is your, what's your nine to five right now? 00:13:31.180 --> 00:13:31.380 Yeah. 00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:35.280 My nine to five is a pastor at a really beautiful church just south of Nashville. 00:13:35.860 --> 00:13:41.420 And, um, we have a, a co-lead pastor model that we're sort of experimenting with here. 00:13:41.520 --> 00:13:43.640 So I'm a lead pastor of teaching. 00:13:43.940 --> 00:13:50.120 And then we also have a lead pastor of strategy and, uh, and we have a lead team and there's 00:13:50.120 --> 00:13:53.940 a whole lot of other layers to that, that I'm sure, uh, I could put all of your listeners 00:13:53.940 --> 00:13:58.640 to sleep talking about, but, um, that's, that's sort of the dynamic that we, and I would, 00:13:58.700 --> 00:13:59.880 you know, we moved down from Chicago. 00:13:59.880 --> 00:14:04.340 So I still feel pretty new to the South and the Bible belt and Nashville. 00:14:04.340 --> 00:14:09.420 And so in any kind of communications role, you're kind of learning the landmines as you 00:14:09.420 --> 00:14:09.960 step on them. 00:14:09.960 --> 00:14:11.720 You're like, ah, got it. 00:14:11.780 --> 00:14:13.100 I can't quote him just yet. 00:14:13.100 --> 00:14:13.540 Got it. 00:14:13.540 --> 00:14:14.720 Or whatever, you know? 00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:20.140 And, but by and large, this, the community has just been so gracious, uh, not only to 00:14:20.140 --> 00:14:21.140 me, but to my family. 00:14:21.140 --> 00:14:25.280 And it's just been a blast getting to know this, uh, this new context with my, with my 00:14:25.280 --> 00:14:25.920 wife and kids. 00:14:26.400 --> 00:14:31.700 I think one of the things that intrigues me because I comment often in your, you know, 00:14:31.700 --> 00:14:36.420 on your things, but also I spend a lot of time reading through them. 00:14:36.420 --> 00:14:45.440 Um, and, um, one of the things that I noticed consistently is you have the ability in such 00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:51.640 a short amount of time to really like get people to connect with you. 00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:58.180 And whenever we're speaking specifically about the hybrid nature between online presence within 00:14:58.180 --> 00:15:03.300 a ministry or within a body of church body or whatever, and then brick and mortar. 00:15:04.300 --> 00:15:08.820 Um, one of the things that I hear over and over, and I have pastors comment to me because 00:15:08.820 --> 00:15:11.820 12, you know, all of our content is so short. 00:15:11.820 --> 00:15:14.100 People are like, how do you do that? 00:15:14.100 --> 00:15:20.960 Like, how do you get people to be engaged and like bought in just so quickly to where 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:26.820 they're really, um, they're genuinely engaged and they're genuinely processing. 00:15:27.380 --> 00:15:32.920 So from that perspective, what would you say that your thoughts are whenever it comes 00:15:32.920 --> 00:15:38.260 to, you know, ministries across the country or people who are wanting to step into the digital 00:15:38.260 --> 00:15:44.200 space, but they're like, I don't really understand how I'm supposed to actually put anything out 00:15:44.200 --> 00:15:44.920 that's meaningful. 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:49.940 That is so short because we live in such a verbose society, really, you know? 00:15:50.500 --> 00:15:52.660 Gosh, first off, that is very kind. 00:15:52.780 --> 00:15:53.240 Thank you. 00:15:53.560 --> 00:15:58.480 I, uh, uh, I'll start with the irreverent and then hopefully move towards something that's 00:15:58.480 --> 00:15:58.960 more helpful. 00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:01.060 I'm really easily bored. 00:16:01.520 --> 00:16:02.740 Like I'm very easily distracted. 00:16:02.900 --> 00:16:06.820 So like the short and concise is honestly almost more for me. 00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:11.720 Like I had a mentor and he was, he was talking about preaching, but this is translated, uh, 00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:12.500 years ago. 00:16:12.640 --> 00:16:14.060 He had asked me about an upcoming sermon. 00:16:14.140 --> 00:16:15.300 He's like, Hey, what are you preaching on this Sunday? 00:16:15.900 --> 00:16:19.380 And I like rift for 20 minutes and rabbit trailed. 00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:20.920 And he's like, you are not done. 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:26.400 And he said, until you can describe your sermon in one sentence to a 10 year old, you're not 00:16:26.400 --> 00:16:27.180 done writing it yet. 00:16:27.260 --> 00:16:30.200 And for whatever reason, he's like, it's not just that it's concise. 00:16:30.280 --> 00:16:32.020 It needs to also be simple. 00:16:32.220 --> 00:16:35.720 And I've, I've held that as a rubric for 20 years now. 00:16:35.720 --> 00:16:37.280 We're like, Oh, it's a little bit about this. 00:16:37.340 --> 00:16:39.060 And we're also talking about a theology of that. 00:16:39.080 --> 00:16:40.960 And he's like, I don't think you actually know what the sermon's about yet. 00:16:41.380 --> 00:16:46.160 He forced in me a discipline early on to, can you actually distill this down to where 00:16:46.160 --> 00:16:47.100 you actually know what you're talking about? 00:16:47.160 --> 00:16:51.240 So a lot of it came from me, I'm prone to distraction and rabbit trailing and trying 00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:54.420 to fit way more into a shorter amount of time than I probably should. 00:16:54.520 --> 00:16:55.580 That's always been my MO. 00:16:56.280 --> 00:17:01.160 The other piece though, that I've, I've learned with online, you guys can speak to this a thousand 00:17:01.160 --> 00:17:02.540 times more intelligently than I can. 00:17:02.540 --> 00:17:05.960 When you're meeting with someone in person, there's all these nonverbal cues. 00:17:06.140 --> 00:17:09.340 And I'm like reading that your brow is furrowed or that you're hunched over. 00:17:09.420 --> 00:17:14.200 There's all these data points, even if they're like subconscious that are tempering how I talk 00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:17.320 to you and how we connect and how we kind of are building equity. 00:17:17.960 --> 00:17:21.300 And if it's just white text, black square, you don't really have any of that. 00:17:21.360 --> 00:17:26.640 So you have to work extra hard at meaningful vulnerability and humanity. 00:17:27.060 --> 00:17:33.080 And I try very hard to, I'm not, I'm not ever the hero in any of the stories that I tell 00:17:33.080 --> 00:17:37.240 and trying to go honestly a little beyond the breaker of my comfort level. 00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:41.500 Like here's a really embarrassing thing that I did, but this is how I feel like God taught 00:17:41.500 --> 00:17:42.320 me in this moment. 00:17:42.600 --> 00:17:48.740 Or here's where even sometimes it's a one or two sentence thing somewhere in the slide deck 00:17:48.740 --> 00:17:51.700 where you're like, Hey, just so you know, I've been there too. 00:17:51.940 --> 00:17:57.480 Like, I think that the, the temptation to appear as an expert on digital platforms, like, let 00:17:57.480 --> 00:18:01.920 me bestow upon you this conclusion that I've drawn as someone who's arrived. 00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:06.780 I want to make sure that's painfully clear, even if they disagree with me to know that 00:18:06.780 --> 00:18:09.760 like, Oh, Ian is recognizing he hasn't fully arrived. 00:18:09.840 --> 00:18:14.900 He's in process and he's, he's learning this in real time with us, but he's not like, Hey, 00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:16.720 I'm from, I'm in this ivory tower. 00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:21.720 Let me bestow upon you these 10 slides on Instagram. 00:18:21.980 --> 00:18:26.940 I, I, uh, I'm always trying to actively kind of work against that and make sure that my humanity 00:18:26.940 --> 00:18:31.940 and brokenness comes through without, without being totally self-deprecating. 00:18:32.120 --> 00:18:36.060 Cause that can also be, you can, the pendulum can swing too far the other way, but trying 00:18:36.060 --> 00:18:39.340 to hold that, hold that intention has been, been a helpful discipline for me. 00:18:39.340 --> 00:18:42.560 You're the pastor at the bridge church, the bridge church. 00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:44.160 Uh, I'm yeah. 00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:51.780 And, uh, I'm, I was perusing your, so the, the, the digital pastor in me always goes directly 00:18:51.780 --> 00:18:54.460 to the online portion of any church. 00:18:54.540 --> 00:18:55.540 I don't care about the rest of it. 00:18:55.580 --> 00:18:56.300 I just, whatever. 00:18:56.960 --> 00:19:00.640 To me, like church websites are a dime a dozen, unfortunately. 00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:03.700 Uh, two things struck me about your website that when I was doing a little bit of research, 00:19:03.780 --> 00:19:05.060 number one, I love your staff page. 00:19:05.220 --> 00:19:08.080 Uh, and I know that's probably a quirk that you guys don't get to hear a lot. 00:19:08.080 --> 00:19:12.800 And whoever your designer is, if you have a creative team or whomever, a plus on the fact 00:19:12.800 --> 00:19:16.400 that your staff page actually has animated gifts of people like doing funny things. 00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:21.680 I think you're playing like rock them, sock them robots and like, you know, that's all 00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:22.060 good stuff. 00:19:22.060 --> 00:19:27.140 Um, but the second thing I always gravitate towards is the online area. 00:19:27.500 --> 00:19:33.060 Uh, what is the bridge's philosophy of digital church right now as it sits? 00:19:33.800 --> 00:19:37.020 Boy, that is, that's a super real time question. 00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:39.020 We're, we're in the midst of figuring that out. 00:19:39.280 --> 00:19:45.480 You know, when I moved here, uh, I think that was right around the same time that life 00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:47.020 church was talking about going meta. 00:19:47.760 --> 00:19:53.320 And obviously during COVID everyone was having, uh, video venue conversations. 00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:55.080 Is this a church? 00:19:55.140 --> 00:19:55.820 Is this a ministry? 00:19:56.500 --> 00:20:01.540 Um, we, we just made some strategic sort of camera upgrades that we're trying to figure 00:20:01.540 --> 00:20:06.500 out like, okay, to what degree is, uh, we thinking about in the room versus online. 00:20:06.820 --> 00:20:11.340 We just launched our first ever, uh, all online small group. 00:20:11.340 --> 00:20:15.920 And even, and even that there was some disagreement about, is that a true small group? 00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:19.520 Is that, uh, will that be the best experience or the best foot forward? 00:20:19.580 --> 00:20:20.520 Do we want to make that available? 00:20:21.080 --> 00:20:25.060 So truly honestly, we, we are kind of in the throes of all of that. 00:20:25.060 --> 00:20:30.940 For me, uh, I think about online as I just talked about this last week, actually, we're 00:20:30.940 --> 00:20:35.640 in the series on the table and how Jesus specifically uses the table and meals. 00:20:35.640 --> 00:20:40.460 And it's just, it's blowing my mind how central it is and how long it's taking me to see this. 00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:45.600 But I also talk about online as like an extension of our table and how we actually are like setting 00:20:45.600 --> 00:20:50.400 the table for people for whatever reason, uh, whether they're not local or they've been 00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:53.280 hurt by churches or they physically can't get out. 00:20:53.340 --> 00:20:59.860 How do we see that as a viable extension of the church, uh, and as a ministry to serve 00:20:59.860 --> 00:21:00.280 those. 00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:05.460 And that's really tricky because my natural bent in preaching is not to look at the camera 00:21:05.460 --> 00:21:11.280 uh, it's really not intuitive for me to speak to our online audience are the people that 00:21:11.280 --> 00:21:15.060 we have hosting online are such beautiful souls and they're dialed in and they're thinking 00:21:15.060 --> 00:21:17.800 about questions and ways to phrase things. 00:21:17.800 --> 00:21:21.080 And, and honestly, one of the things that has kind of bumped this up for me, this isn't 00:21:21.080 --> 00:21:22.360 really what you asked, but I think it's helpful. 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:28.300 Uh, we sort of accidentally stumbled into a prison ministry in the last year. 00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:32.280 Some guy that just started attending here, who's the local chaplain started showing our 00:21:32.280 --> 00:21:35.140 services and then, uh, that service got filled. 00:21:35.280 --> 00:21:36.560 So we added a second and then that got filled. 00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:37.980 So we added a third and that got filled. 00:21:38.060 --> 00:21:42.140 So we added a fourth and he's having five services at our local prison and we didn't 00:21:42.140 --> 00:21:42.680 even know about it. 00:21:42.700 --> 00:21:43.920 We didn't put any money toward it. 00:21:44.020 --> 00:21:47.900 Literally the guy told me as he was leaving on a Sunday and then I started getting letters 00:21:47.900 --> 00:21:52.120 from, from prisoners, like with just the most remarkable. 00:21:52.220 --> 00:21:56.000 So now I'm like thinking about, oh, this isn't just someone logging in online because they're 00:21:56.000 --> 00:21:56.920 on vacation this week. 00:21:57.180 --> 00:22:01.880 Like this is, this is a ministry to people 10 miles down the road from us. 00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:03.220 They're in a very different circumstance. 00:22:03.220 --> 00:22:08.700 So it has really rattled a lot of my categories, to be honest, and how we think about the digital 00:22:08.700 --> 00:22:09.500 and video space. 00:22:09.500 --> 00:22:13.720 And, uh, yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say we fully landed the plane there yet. 00:22:14.100 --> 00:22:21.100 I, so I'm a church kid, like Southern Baptist, um, and was in church like five, if not seven 00:22:21.100 --> 00:22:24.900 days a week, but for sure five, um, physically in church. 00:22:24.900 --> 00:22:31.540 And, and so, but I professionally, I'm a digital marketing analyst and strategist and content 00:22:31.540 --> 00:22:31.940 creator. 00:22:31.940 --> 00:22:35.100 And so like I eat, sleep and breathe the digital space. 00:22:35.100 --> 00:22:39.720 And like, I have older kids, I have a 20 year old and an soon to be 18 year old. 00:22:40.300 --> 00:22:46.400 And so I have, I very much live online, right? 00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:50.900 Like so much of what I do is online and so many of the relationships that I've built is online. 00:22:50.900 --> 00:22:58.320 And so I was actually on staff at a brick and mortar church whenever the idea to have a digital 00:22:58.320 --> 00:23:04.340 church, like that, that God presented that to me and Andy knows, and our audience, a lot 00:23:04.340 --> 00:23:04.900 of them will know. 00:23:05.060 --> 00:23:06.460 I was like, I'm not doing that. 00:23:06.460 --> 00:23:08.000 Like, that is not what I'm doing. 00:23:08.360 --> 00:23:12.180 Like, in fact, why do I have zero desire to do that? 00:23:12.260 --> 00:23:17.720 And so I think you should just talk to someone else because I'm busy. 00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:19.200 I'm not going to do it. 00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:24.340 Um, and then, you know, I talked to my dad, who's like the most level headed person knows 00:23:24.340 --> 00:23:25.780 my temperament really well. 00:23:26.440 --> 00:23:27.940 He's like, I think you should pray about it. 00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:29.420 And I'm not praying about it either. 00:23:29.700 --> 00:23:30.820 Like, I'm not doing that. 00:23:31.320 --> 00:23:34.600 Um, and then I prayed about it and now it's almost three years old. 00:23:34.600 --> 00:23:38.980 So, you know, like God, God always gets you there eventually. 00:23:39.300 --> 00:23:42.840 But through that process, I think that you're absolutely right. 00:23:42.920 --> 00:23:50.100 A lot of people have a disconnect between understanding that relationships that people build online and 00:23:50.100 --> 00:23:57.700 the necessity that people have to need, like to have access to online ministry and to online 00:23:57.700 --> 00:24:03.160 spiritual food is absolutely real. 00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:11.560 And it's imperative because especially if you step into Gen Z, so many relationships, my daughter's 00:24:11.560 --> 00:24:16.660 boyfriend, who she's been with now for four years, they met in an Instagram DMs. 00:24:16.840 --> 00:24:20.700 Like their relationship was built online first. 00:24:21.480 --> 00:24:28.480 Um, and I think that we, the church has a tendency to be reactive and not proactive. 00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:33.840 And we get so tied to like these ideologies that are rooted in the, well, this is just what 00:24:33.840 --> 00:24:34.220 we do. 00:24:34.320 --> 00:24:41.800 This is what we've always done that we end up missing an entire section of humanity because 00:24:41.800 --> 00:24:50.040 we're just married to a concept that worked really well at one time, still works presently, 00:24:50.040 --> 00:24:52.760 but definitely needs to shift in order to be relevant. 00:24:52.760 --> 00:25:01.800 Um, and we, earlier we, last week we interviewed a young lady who, um, named Jay, who is a Gen 00:25:01.800 --> 00:25:06.540 Z, you know, she's in multimedia communications, works with Univision. 00:25:07.100 --> 00:25:15.520 And one of the things that she said in response to some, some data that we got from Barna is 00:25:15.520 --> 00:25:22.340 just the mass exodus of young people from the church, we have to recognize that traditional 00:25:22.340 --> 00:25:28.800 brick and mortar may not be working, but if you have a way to get them. 00:25:28.900 --> 00:25:32.740 So for instance, like I, this is the first time you and I have ever had a conversation, 00:25:32.740 --> 00:25:40.000 you know, outside DMs to ask you to come on, but I feel like because of your content, I feel 00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:40.980 connected to you. 00:25:41.180 --> 00:25:43.420 Like I read your content all the time. 00:25:43.420 --> 00:25:47.900 Um, if somebody were to say something like snarky in your comments, I would probably be 00:25:47.900 --> 00:25:54.360 like, like, I would have to let you just take over and not let me clap back. 00:25:54.360 --> 00:25:56.820 Cause I, the clap back queen lives inside of me. 00:25:57.040 --> 00:26:02.360 Um, but I don't know you, but I feel enough of a connection to you that if somebody were 00:26:02.360 --> 00:26:08.080 to come at you sideways, then the not saved version of me might step into your comments 00:26:08.080 --> 00:26:12.140 and I would have to rein it in because I would feel the need to like protect you or go to 00:26:12.140 --> 00:26:12.720 bat for you. 00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:15.340 That's a very real connection for me. 00:26:15.620 --> 00:26:18.780 And, and I have that with, with a myriad of people. 00:26:19.060 --> 00:26:24.420 And so with that in mind, whenever you're talking about it being an extension of the table, 00:26:24.420 --> 00:26:32.600 what are your thoughts whenever it comes to just people and the way we connect and how do 00:26:32.600 --> 00:26:43.640 we, with maturity and, and grace essentially not only encourage relationship building between 00:26:43.640 --> 00:26:48.060 churches and people never potentially come inside of the church. 00:26:48.580 --> 00:26:53.220 Um, and then also people that they just wouldn't usually have access to, for instance, like the 00:26:53.220 --> 00:26:54.140 prisoners that you're. 00:26:54.380 --> 00:26:54.780 Yeah. 00:26:55.020 --> 00:26:55.380 Yeah. 00:26:56.040 --> 00:27:02.400 I, um, that's such a good question, probably to a fault, I think through a formation lens 00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:02.860 first. 00:27:03.360 --> 00:27:07.100 So for me, and, and I've been getting this question, you know, for a long time, people 00:27:07.100 --> 00:27:09.760 will ask us, is social media good or bad? 00:27:09.960 --> 00:27:13.420 And I would say, I don't actually think it's good or bad, but it's not neutral. 00:27:13.880 --> 00:27:16.840 And I think the, like, so the example I'll give is like a shovel. 00:27:17.180 --> 00:27:22.760 You can use a shovel, uh, to dig wells or to run around beating people over the head with 00:27:22.760 --> 00:27:23.400 it, right? 00:27:23.720 --> 00:27:28.080 Like that you can do both things, but do either long enough and you're going to end up with 00:27:28.080 --> 00:27:28.980 blisters on your hands. 00:27:29.120 --> 00:27:34.800 Like it's a tool, whether you're using it for ill or for service, uh, there's a formational 00:27:34.800 --> 00:27:35.580 piece to it. 00:27:35.580 --> 00:27:39.240 So I'm always trying to like one of the things, one of the kind of principles that we, uh, 00:27:39.240 --> 00:27:43.860 we encourage people to in the morning is a simple axiom scripture before screen. 00:27:44.140 --> 00:27:45.500 We're all inundated with screens. 00:27:45.580 --> 00:27:46.740 I'm not knocking screens. 00:27:46.980 --> 00:27:48.880 A lot of us, a lot of my life is on a screen. 00:27:49.520 --> 00:27:51.420 Um, a lot of us read our Bible on the screen. 00:27:51.520 --> 00:27:55.500 Scripture before screens is a formational practice, sort of a rule of life. 00:27:55.540 --> 00:28:00.040 What does it look like for us to ground ourselves in the morning first in God's word in whatever 00:28:00.040 --> 00:28:00.640 way they do it? 00:28:00.680 --> 00:28:04.120 I mean, I even say it in Sundays, like, Hey, we're going to be in Luke chapter 14. 00:28:04.120 --> 00:28:05.720 You can turn or swipe there right now. 00:28:05.720 --> 00:28:08.580 I want people to know, man, if you're reading on your phone, you're welcome here. 00:28:08.660 --> 00:28:12.960 This is not a, you need to get off your dusty KJV. 00:28:13.120 --> 00:28:15.100 That's the only version that, you know, the Lord likes. 00:28:15.420 --> 00:28:20.660 Um, so it is, it is a real tension for me because like, I just read Johan Hari's stolen 00:28:20.660 --> 00:28:21.140 focus. 00:28:21.300 --> 00:28:22.280 I don't know if you've read this or not. 00:28:22.420 --> 00:28:27.240 Um, and, and just a, first off, it's a masterpiece. 00:28:27.780 --> 00:28:28.180 Yep. 00:28:28.540 --> 00:28:33.340 And a lot of it I already knew, but there was a lot there that I was like, some of this 00:28:33.340 --> 00:28:35.620 is more nefarious than I think I realized. 00:28:35.780 --> 00:28:40.540 And trying to be mindful and not just dig my, bury my head in the sand, but I was chatting 00:28:40.540 --> 00:28:41.360 with another guy on staff. 00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:43.740 I also just turned 40 this last year. 00:28:44.320 --> 00:28:51.860 And I remember proposing at, uh, the first church I worked at the possibility of online 00:28:51.860 --> 00:28:52.280 giving. 00:28:52.840 --> 00:28:57.400 And you would have thought I proposed that we sacrifice our firstborn. 00:28:57.400 --> 00:29:02.500 Like it was no giving that the Lord honors is physical. 00:29:02.500 --> 00:29:03.200 It's writing it. 00:29:03.280 --> 00:29:04.580 It was like very convictional. 00:29:05.120 --> 00:29:10.500 And now 20 years later, that feels, you know, pass a, I, that's always top of mind for me. 00:29:10.560 --> 00:29:12.160 Like, okay, Ian, you're 40 now. 00:29:12.700 --> 00:29:16.800 What are the areas that you're tempted to bury a head in the sand and say, this is the only 00:29:16.800 --> 00:29:18.340 way that we do church. 00:29:18.360 --> 00:29:23.500 And some 21 year old on staff is like, I think we're potentially missing out on a whole demographic 00:29:23.500 --> 00:29:26.380 of people by your unwillingness to move. 00:29:26.380 --> 00:29:32.300 I feel some of that kind of inner curmudgeon already, you know, like Wendell Berry is one 00:29:32.300 --> 00:29:34.700 of my favorite writers and he still writes books on a typewriter. 00:29:34.920 --> 00:29:38.240 Like that's, that's, I have a lot of that kind of in me. 00:29:38.420 --> 00:29:42.100 And, uh, so it, it, it, a lot of it comes down to trust. 00:29:42.260 --> 00:29:44.120 You know, I was talking about our shared model of leadership. 00:29:44.500 --> 00:29:49.740 We have to be very, very clear about, uh, what decisions are ultimately mine and what 00:29:49.740 --> 00:29:53.240 are the ones that I need to relinquish and say, I don't think I agree with this. 00:29:53.920 --> 00:29:57.980 Um, but ultimately we are empowering the people that are thinking that through prayerfully, 00:29:58.020 --> 00:30:03.500 not just intellect, but also like spirit sensitivity, um, and actually letting them lead on those 00:30:03.500 --> 00:30:03.860 areas. 00:30:03.860 --> 00:30:08.780 And so that does sometimes come with a, is that how we want our reels to look? 00:30:08.780 --> 00:30:14.260 Like, or is this the right use of our resources or what is an online host versus a in-person 00:30:14.260 --> 00:30:14.740 host? 00:30:14.820 --> 00:30:18.400 Like those are honestly, secretly don't tell anybody. 00:30:18.620 --> 00:30:22.680 I like those conversations because they're like, they're new and inventive and there's 00:30:22.680 --> 00:30:24.340 not a lot of tip of the spear. 00:30:24.340 --> 00:30:28.880 Like we just, I feel like we get to, it's a sandbox that I like playing in, um, but it 00:30:28.880 --> 00:30:33.580 can create a fair amount of conflict, especially if you're, you know, dyed on the wool, this 00:30:33.580 --> 00:30:34.300 is how it's always been. 00:30:34.300 --> 00:30:38.500 Or I think the other pendulum is innovation just for innovation's sake. 00:30:38.540 --> 00:30:39.800 I don't think that's helpful either. 00:30:39.800 --> 00:30:45.220 And I think some, some people are so drawn to new that we'll hop on whatever the newest 00:30:45.220 --> 00:30:49.180 app or trend thing is and assume that's the next big thing for the church. 00:30:49.180 --> 00:30:51.340 And I'm like, I don't know that that's wise either. 00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:59.020 So trying to find that, that, that middle space without becoming, yeah, benign or complacent 00:30:59.020 --> 00:31:03.640 has been really tricky because ultimately, you know, and I'm the, I'm the, uh, the primary 00:31:03.640 --> 00:31:04.240 communicator. 00:31:04.400 --> 00:31:08.180 I don't want the voice of the bridge to just mimic me either. 00:31:08.180 --> 00:31:14.360 Like we work really, really hard at dismantling any kind of celebrityism or it's about one 00:31:14.360 --> 00:31:15.500 person on a stage. 00:31:15.500 --> 00:31:20.020 So that, that requires a lot of, uh, open handedness at every level. 00:31:20.620 --> 00:31:26.240 And in the digital space that gets really tricky because, you know, there's a, there's 00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:30.060 a competence bar and there's a design aesthetic and there's a, well, that doesn't really feel 00:31:30.060 --> 00:31:30.700 like us. 00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:32.540 And someone might ask, well, what does that mean? 00:31:32.540 --> 00:31:33.400 Like, I don't really know. 00:31:33.560 --> 00:31:35.620 I can't give you hard. 00:31:35.720 --> 00:31:36.020 You know what I mean? 00:31:36.040 --> 00:31:37.380 Like I can't give you hard and fast. 00:31:37.500 --> 00:31:38.820 Oh, because we don't use this font. 00:31:38.940 --> 00:31:44.020 It's like, I don't know how to put it's like it's liking or not liking a certain genre of 00:31:44.020 --> 00:31:44.380 music. 00:31:44.460 --> 00:31:49.820 And I think, uh, the digital conversation is sort of opening all of that up in a way that's 00:31:49.820 --> 00:31:54.020 very exciting, but can also feel very, uh, very wide. 00:31:54.080 --> 00:31:55.200 It can feel very expansive. 00:31:55.860 --> 00:32:02.080 There's a, there's a thing that happens when you start to put the quote unquote digital label 00:32:02.080 --> 00:32:06.320 on, uh, especially in the church world, something that I've noticed in the last, really since 00:32:06.320 --> 00:32:10.920 COVID, uh, what, what started and then just go with me on this analogy real quick. 00:32:10.920 --> 00:32:12.540 And then tell me I'm, tell me I'm stupid. 00:32:12.540 --> 00:32:20.000 Uh, about 20 years ago, uh, maybe 25 years ago, a band called DC talk released an album 00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:21.060 called Jesus free. 00:32:21.260 --> 00:32:21.560 Right. 00:32:21.980 --> 00:32:22.420 Yes, sir. 00:32:22.540 --> 00:32:23.340 Like, yes, sir. 00:32:23.520 --> 00:32:30.160 And like, and in my head, in my like teenage head, I was rebelling from church, but I had 00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:31.320 like, like this girl. 00:32:31.320 --> 00:32:33.780 And so I started going to church because of this girl. 00:32:34.140 --> 00:32:38.520 And then I kind of went through a path of like addiction and cocaine and drugs and all 00:32:38.520 --> 00:32:39.300 those other things. 00:32:39.560 --> 00:32:45.860 But anytime I would hear the word Christian attached to music, I thought DC talks Jesus 00:32:45.860 --> 00:32:46.200 freak. 00:32:46.620 --> 00:32:52.280 And then, you know, the wheel started spinning and Christian music became Matthew West and 00:32:52.280 --> 00:32:54.800 it became Chris Tomlin and became Stephen Curtis Chapman. 00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:56.040 And it was, it was the thing. 00:32:56.120 --> 00:33:01.980 And so 25, 30 years later, you think Christian music and you automatically have a style in your 00:33:01.980 --> 00:33:02.900 head for better or for worse. 00:33:03.340 --> 00:33:06.320 Uh, and I, I did a lot of ministry in the Atlanta area. 00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:07.120 That's where my wife's from. 00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:08.780 She was born and raised Atlanta, Georgia. 00:33:09.260 --> 00:33:14.280 Uh, you talk about Bible belt, like you're Tennessee, Tennessee to Atlanta is like essentially 00:33:14.280 --> 00:33:16.020 like the buckle of the Bible belt. 00:33:16.500 --> 00:33:20.820 Um, and, and so there was, there was this hard and fast rule of like, well, no, it's 00:33:20.820 --> 00:33:21.100 Sunday. 00:33:21.100 --> 00:33:22.220 So we listened to Christian music. 00:33:22.220 --> 00:33:27.300 Not, not for me, from my, let's say my in-laws, uh, we listen to Christian music and we do 00:33:27.300 --> 00:33:28.500 Christian things on Sunday. 00:33:28.500 --> 00:33:29.380 And this is what we do. 00:33:30.140 --> 00:33:36.420 And there's been, and now that I'm in Tampa, uh, Tampa surprisingly is the second most de-churched 00:33:36.420 --> 00:33:39.020 city in the nation behind Portland. 00:33:39.020 --> 00:33:41.300 Which you would never think of that. 00:33:41.780 --> 00:33:47.280 Um, but according to like Barna research back in the 2020 and 2021, the most de-churched, 00:33:47.280 --> 00:33:48.440 and so Sunday is not that. 00:33:48.980 --> 00:33:53.740 And the, the translation in my head, at least in the past, like three or four years is you 00:33:53.740 --> 00:33:56.660 attach Christian or church to digital. 00:33:57.120 --> 00:34:02.700 And it's something that has to feel and look and sound and taste and all, you know, it has 00:34:02.700 --> 00:34:03.920 to have that flavor, you know? 00:34:04.560 --> 00:34:09.640 And one of the things I really like about what you guys are doing, uh, especially your church, 00:34:09.640 --> 00:34:15.720 but you in particular is you're not allowing that flavor to be in your posting. 00:34:16.380 --> 00:34:23.800 And I, I, you know, I, I know you said you stumbled into that, but do you have a revolutionary 00:34:23.800 --> 00:34:25.840 bone in your body? 00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:27.360 Do you have a confrontational bone? 00:34:27.420 --> 00:34:28.920 Like, is that your Enneagram number? 00:34:28.920 --> 00:34:30.740 Like you want to fight things all the time? 00:34:30.740 --> 00:34:32.780 Like, is that, is that how it is? 00:34:32.780 --> 00:34:33.740 Or is it one of those things? 00:34:33.740 --> 00:34:36.220 Like you really felt the Lord leading you to do something? 00:34:36.220 --> 00:34:38.760 Because I do believe you are discipling and influencing people. 00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:42.960 I told you the story off camera, but like you are discipling and influencing me from afar. 00:34:43.160 --> 00:34:47.080 And so I, I guess that's my big question is, is, is that part of your personality or is that 00:34:47.080 --> 00:34:49.160 literally something that just kind of has happened? 00:34:49.640 --> 00:34:51.840 Gosh, what a question, man. 00:34:52.620 --> 00:34:57.020 I, this is a whole other part of my story that maybe isn't totally relevant, but, uh, 00:34:57.020 --> 00:34:57.640 let me go there. 00:34:57.640 --> 00:35:03.700 So I, I, as a teenager discovered drums and punk music in particular. 00:35:04.060 --> 00:35:04.360 Let's go. 00:35:04.460 --> 00:35:08.060 And after I was, uh, I was pulled out of public school and I was, you know, I was getting 00:35:08.060 --> 00:35:09.160 a lot of fights and stuff. 00:35:09.220 --> 00:35:10.660 I had, I had a lot of anger issues. 00:35:11.320 --> 00:35:16.840 Uh, music and particularly punk music and the punk community kind of became my people. 00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:20.000 And to the point where I thought I'm going to, I'm going to study music. 00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:23.220 I'm going to move to California, learn to surf and then live out my days. 00:35:23.240 --> 00:35:24.800 That's, that's really where I thought I was going to go. 00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:25.840 I'm going to be part of no effects. 00:35:25.960 --> 00:35:27.100 I'm going to be part of strung out. 00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:27.480 Yeah. 00:35:27.860 --> 00:35:29.600 Oh, you're speaking my language. 00:35:30.080 --> 00:35:30.880 I know I liked you. 00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:31.380 Yeah. 00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:32.240 Those are my bands. 00:35:32.360 --> 00:35:34.800 Those are the bands that I grew up playing and emulating. 00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:35.220 Yes. 00:35:35.560 --> 00:35:41.280 And, and people, um, who, who didn't, it is hard to understand because I 00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:47.100 think it is the punk ethos, at least from my experience is, is more than just a middle finger 00:35:47.100 --> 00:35:47.740 to establishment. 00:35:47.740 --> 00:35:48.740 That was part of it. 00:35:48.760 --> 00:35:50.420 And that was maybe the most outspoken part of it. 00:35:50.580 --> 00:35:56.620 But there was sort of this like challenge, uh, upset upside down. 00:35:56.620 --> 00:36:00.880 So when I really started to fall in love with Jesus, uh, there was so many things that were 00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:01.720 like lightning bolts for me. 00:36:01.720 --> 00:36:03.860 I was like, this is a pretty punk rock thing for Jesus to say. 00:36:03.860 --> 00:36:07.920 I'd never heard it said that way because I was hearing it and it's like really like stuffy 00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:08.540 church tone. 00:36:08.720 --> 00:36:11.140 And I even, I sometimes accidentally say it in sermons. 00:36:11.320 --> 00:36:13.360 I said it last Sunday, this thing that Jesus did. 00:36:13.400 --> 00:36:16.160 And I was like, y'all, I don't think we realize how punk rock this is. 00:36:16.300 --> 00:36:19.740 That to me is, it probably means something different than the average listener. 00:36:20.220 --> 00:36:23.940 But, uh, that's part of why, and I got to give credit to my parents, man. 00:36:24.020 --> 00:36:30.060 They, I went to church, not because I wanted to, but because my dad was big and scary and 00:36:30.060 --> 00:36:30.580 said, you're going. 00:36:31.000 --> 00:36:34.380 So I never had this like huge, like disdain for the church. 00:36:34.460 --> 00:36:35.560 I just didn't really see the point. 00:36:35.640 --> 00:36:37.360 So I went and I was like, this is fine. 00:36:37.780 --> 00:36:38.220 I don't hate it. 00:36:38.280 --> 00:36:38.760 I don't love it. 00:36:38.840 --> 00:36:43.140 It's, it's benign, but I just, there was no, I don't know. 00:36:43.220 --> 00:36:46.540 It was kind of like, as soon as I don't have to, I'm not going to. 00:36:46.600 --> 00:36:47.920 That was sort of my, my understanding. 00:36:48.020 --> 00:36:51.160 So the fact that I'm in ministry is hilarious. 00:36:51.680 --> 00:36:54.620 Um, any of us on the screen are in ministry. 00:36:54.620 --> 00:37:02.040 But the thing that I really, really appreciate more and more every year is that the way that 00:37:02.040 --> 00:37:05.520 my parents homeschooled us, I think contributed to a lot of that punk rock. 00:37:05.620 --> 00:37:08.280 They were like, listen, uh, this is how you think critically. 00:37:08.520 --> 00:37:12.260 This is how you push back, but with respect, this is how you think for yourself. 00:37:12.260 --> 00:37:17.860 This is how, like, I didn't realize how unique those things were to learn at 12, 13, 14 that 00:37:17.860 --> 00:37:19.620 have kind of shaped the way that I am. 00:37:20.140 --> 00:37:22.040 And, uh, so I bring that into preaching. 00:37:22.040 --> 00:37:24.900 So we did, you know, a series on mental health. 00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:27.660 We just went there and we did a series, a whole series on doubt. 00:37:27.880 --> 00:37:32.760 And then, you know, people will tell us like, I've never heard a series on doubt. 00:37:32.860 --> 00:37:35.320 Thank you for going there because that's my lived experience. 00:37:35.580 --> 00:37:38.520 It's not us trying to be disruptive or edgy. 00:37:38.520 --> 00:37:42.580 It's just sort of like, these are the things that the people I care most about are wrestling 00:37:42.580 --> 00:37:42.940 with. 00:37:43.460 --> 00:37:49.440 And it feels like the satisfaction with pithy truisms is just no longer satisfying. 00:37:49.440 --> 00:37:51.320 People are like seeing through the veneer. 00:37:52.020 --> 00:37:54.740 So maybe it's time to actually lean into it a little bit more. 00:37:55.340 --> 00:37:59.900 And, um, and I think some of what we could diagnose this if you want to, but I had a 00:37:59.900 --> 00:38:02.260 buddy years ago, he made this comment to me, not a Christian. 00:38:02.680 --> 00:38:05.880 He said, you Christians treat online like it's Vegas. 00:38:06.260 --> 00:38:07.980 Like what happens here stays here. 00:38:08.060 --> 00:38:12.220 And the amount of stuff that I've seen people, I'll like, I know that they're in church on 00:38:12.220 --> 00:38:12.540 Sunday. 00:38:12.540 --> 00:38:14.260 And then I look at how they post on Monday. 00:38:14.820 --> 00:38:19.400 And as an outsider, as an atheist, they're like, that doesn't seem to correlate at all. 00:38:19.400 --> 00:38:23.900 I had enough friends from these other kinds of circles and spheres make those observations 00:38:23.900 --> 00:38:26.600 that like deeply convicted me. 00:38:26.600 --> 00:38:30.480 Like, oh, they're paying attention to, wow, you say this about your Jesus. 00:38:30.640 --> 00:38:33.000 And then I watched the way I saw you in the comment section. 00:38:33.520 --> 00:38:35.680 That seems so disintegrated. 00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:39.840 That's really what it came down to me for me was, okay, it's not me. 00:38:39.980 --> 00:38:42.740 It's not about me being raw or vulnerable or even edgy. 00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:44.580 It's a, it's about authenticity. 00:38:44.920 --> 00:38:50.280 And the authentic Ian is that sometimes he reads verses and wonders to himself, what am I supposed 00:38:50.280 --> 00:38:51.060 to do with this? 00:38:51.520 --> 00:38:56.240 Turns out when you send me stuff like that, 80% of the room goes, yeah, me too. 00:38:56.400 --> 00:38:58.000 Like, that's also how I feel. 00:38:58.380 --> 00:39:01.180 And it's, it's been such a beautiful, that C.S. 00:39:01.220 --> 00:39:02.560 Lewis defines friendship that way. 00:39:02.560 --> 00:39:06.640 When you share something vulnerable and somebody else, another soul says, me too. 00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:13.940 Like, that's such, it's such a gift that I wish I had, I wish I had leaned into earlier 00:39:13.940 --> 00:39:17.960 in my ministry because it's like, it's the, it's one of the things that I just enjoy most 00:39:17.960 --> 00:39:19.840 about being a pastor now. 00:39:20.160 --> 00:39:27.460 With that in mind and, and something that I consistently tell people, you have to be careful 00:39:27.460 --> 00:39:31.800 what you say in comments because first off, and I tell my teenagers this whole time, once 00:39:31.800 --> 00:39:34.500 you have put it on the internet, it is forever on the internet. 00:39:34.780 --> 00:39:36.260 You can't take it down. 00:39:36.720 --> 00:39:39.120 You might think you took it down, but you didn't. 00:39:39.320 --> 00:39:43.200 Somebody probably screenshot it or saved it or whatever. 00:39:43.920 --> 00:39:45.620 So you, so navigating that. 00:39:45.720 --> 00:39:53.760 But then in addition to that, that whole authenticity piece, I think as believers, I think sometimes 00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:59.800 we miss that because we try really hard online to put up this facade of holiness and perfection. 00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:05.780 And first off, people that know us in real life will be on our page and be like, what are 00:40:05.780 --> 00:40:06.360 you talking about? 00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:08.880 Like that is not even in general. 00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:16.540 So you automatically lose, you know, your relevance and your, your voice into their life. 00:40:16.540 --> 00:40:23.500 But additionally, I think we are so saturated with production and produced content that people 00:40:23.500 --> 00:40:28.740 can immediately identify whenever somebody is being real and authentic and genuine. 00:40:29.380 --> 00:40:33.780 And there's, there's just such a huge, um, on TikTok. 00:40:33.780 --> 00:40:40.080 So I don't, I was an escort for five years and God radically pulled me out of that. 00:40:40.080 --> 00:40:44.840 And I went through these amounts of therapy and major, major deep healing. 00:40:44.840 --> 00:40:47.220 And through that process. 00:40:47.220 --> 00:40:50.980 I speak at women's conferences and I work with sex trafficking victims and et cetera, et cetera. 00:40:50.980 --> 00:41:00.740 But if you listen to me on TikTok, um, I am very transparent about the, about the, um, 00:41:01.080 --> 00:41:06.760 sanctification process that has happened from the time that I actually gave my life to Christ to 00:41:06.760 --> 00:41:14.060 where I, um, where I am now, even, even the parts where, even now, I mean, with the theology 00:41:14.060 --> 00:41:19.260 degree and preaching and running a church and like all of the things, there's still things 00:41:19.260 --> 00:41:21.820 that I'm like, I still struggle with this. 00:41:21.820 --> 00:41:23.600 Like, this is still something that I desire. 00:41:23.600 --> 00:41:29.180 This is still a space that I kind of miss, like that I'll find myself slipping into. 00:41:30.300 --> 00:41:37.200 And so whenever we're talking about ministering to people online or discipling people online, 00:41:37.200 --> 00:41:44.500 what do you think the line is between being authentic and allowing people to really walk 00:41:44.500 --> 00:41:48.980 with you through the process of your day-to-day journey with Christ? 00:41:49.580 --> 00:41:55.840 And then, uh, just doing the most and like sharing the most and, and people are, you know, 00:41:56.140 --> 00:42:01.740 uh, and people are like, Oh, like, I don't, I don't know if I need that. 00:42:01.940 --> 00:42:02.160 Yeah. 00:42:03.540 --> 00:42:03.940 Yeah. 00:42:04.060 --> 00:42:08.300 That's, uh, we, uh, we were talking about humility on Sunday and, uh, there's a columnist 00:42:08.300 --> 00:42:09.520 named David Brooks. 00:42:09.520 --> 00:42:11.960 And he said, in a lot of ways, humility has become the new pride. 00:42:11.960 --> 00:42:14.360 Like we're braggadocious about how humble we are. 00:42:14.360 --> 00:42:19.220 And I think you can also apply vulnerability or transparency into that same category. 00:42:19.220 --> 00:42:24.360 And I've, I've heard a number of pastors over the years say things like, Oh, my preaching 00:42:24.360 --> 00:42:25.200 is my therapy. 00:42:25.200 --> 00:42:28.320 I'm like, Oh, I have seven problems with that. 00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:31.200 That is, uh, I think unwise. 00:42:31.200 --> 00:42:37.220 I do think that there is like, my wife is such a gift for so many reasons, not the least 00:42:37.220 --> 00:42:40.360 of which is she's just not easily impressed. 00:42:40.360 --> 00:42:45.640 So like, if I, if I ever feel like, you know, I'm getting a big head or that was kind of 00:42:45.640 --> 00:42:49.040 impressive or whatever, but she also like, it's a real gift. 00:42:49.040 --> 00:42:54.360 If I'm going to preach on rest and she's in the front row giving me that look, like, really, 00:42:54.460 --> 00:42:55.440 you're going to tell them about rest? 00:42:55.540 --> 00:42:56.140 Like, weren't you? 00:42:56.380 --> 00:42:58.060 Isn't that, you live in the same house. 00:42:58.140 --> 00:43:02.880 Like we know, like that is a very, so there's another thing that I think has happened in the 00:43:02.880 --> 00:43:08.400 last 15 years, that's sort of like a controlled vulnerability where what we're discovering and 00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:12.160 what I've discovered, even with close friends is like, I'm going to give a little bit of 00:43:12.160 --> 00:43:17.200 controlled transparency here in a sermon to distract you from like the very real thing 00:43:17.200 --> 00:43:18.900 that's going on that I'm actually trying to keep secret. 00:43:19.080 --> 00:43:24.640 Like using it as a diversion tactic is, uh, turns out more common than any of us thought. 00:43:24.700 --> 00:43:30.620 And I think that's really dangerous, but I, I, I had a mentor and I'll probably bring up 00:43:30.620 --> 00:43:35.360 mentors 10 more times, but he, he told me really, really early on, cause I think he saw the 00:43:35.360 --> 00:43:39.220 inevitable train wreck that I would be if I didn't make some really important corrections. 00:43:39.560 --> 00:43:44.180 He said, Ian, you need to find people who love you, who aren't cowards. 00:43:44.640 --> 00:43:47.560 He's like, there's plenty of people that love you, but they're not going to tell you the 00:43:47.560 --> 00:43:48.440 hard truth about yourself. 00:43:48.560 --> 00:43:49.940 They're not going to tell you you have spinach in your teeth. 00:43:50.440 --> 00:43:52.680 And there's plenty of people that will tell you the hard truth about yourself. 00:43:52.720 --> 00:43:56.080 But if you don't know that they love you and afford you, you're not going to, you're 00:43:56.080 --> 00:43:57.680 not going to receive their correction very well. 00:43:58.080 --> 00:44:00.600 He's like, you need to find those people and not a lot of them. 00:44:00.620 --> 00:44:04.500 You need a few people kind of ride or die that will keep you accountable to those things. 00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:08.860 And I, by God's grace have, have found them in different seasons of the light. 00:44:08.920 --> 00:44:14.300 You know, that's, we've moved and some of that has shifted, but having that, uh, is a 00:44:14.300 --> 00:44:19.460 helpful barometer for me so that I'm not like just spilling all of my guts inappropriately 00:44:19.460 --> 00:44:20.900 on a Sunday or online. 00:44:20.900 --> 00:44:25.020 Like I have, and we even here have a teaching team three weeks before any sermon is preached. 00:44:25.500 --> 00:44:29.480 You know, we got five to seven people in a room that I deliver a first draft to and they 00:44:29.480 --> 00:44:33.080 pick it apart and they're like, this might be a little too vulnerable or like, I actually 00:44:33.080 --> 00:44:34.380 don't think you're being vulnerable enough. 00:44:34.380 --> 00:44:38.800 And we have men and women, old and young that are kind of helping keep me accountable to 00:44:38.800 --> 00:44:45.060 those things so that it isn't like, whoa, that is oversharing to a distracting degree. 00:44:45.180 --> 00:44:47.460 Or, Hey, you just read a bunch of words. 00:44:47.520 --> 00:44:49.380 I don't feel like we know anything more about you at all though. 00:44:49.380 --> 00:44:55.100 Like you didn't actually, and they, they kind of helped correct both extremes and, uh, and 00:44:55.100 --> 00:44:58.900 the sermon ended up reflecting much more of the actual collective community of the bridge 00:44:58.900 --> 00:45:02.940 rather than just, I went into, you know, on top of a mountain for a week and came back 00:45:02.940 --> 00:45:03.740 with this message. 00:45:03.920 --> 00:45:09.360 So I try, I just place a lot of trust in people to kind of help me navigate that in preaching. 00:45:09.720 --> 00:45:14.840 And with online, I know that my inclination is, is stoicism. 00:45:14.840 --> 00:45:20.600 My inclination, my proclivity is never let them see a sweat, pretend like you have an 00:45:20.600 --> 00:45:22.900 answer, even if you don't, I know that's my bent. 00:45:23.220 --> 00:45:29.920 So anytime that I like am attempting vulnerability, uh, it's, it's, it's so counterintuitive for 00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:37.520 me to overshare that, uh, I know that's less likely that, you know, a post will be too vulnerable. 00:45:37.520 --> 00:45:40.640 And then, you know, now that I have a family and kids, there's like an additional level of 00:45:40.640 --> 00:45:44.780 accountability, like, Hey, maybe don't share this embarrassing story about our son because that, 00:45:44.840 --> 00:45:48.440 like you said, that's on the internet forever and he's eventually going to need a job or 00:45:48.440 --> 00:45:51.480 whatever that has kind of added a new layer to it. 00:45:51.800 --> 00:45:56.260 Um, and my wife has just like a, such a, such a, she's so wise and has such a good sensitivity 00:45:56.260 --> 00:45:59.360 on, you know, maybe that one doesn't need to go online. 00:45:59.460 --> 00:46:04.680 Maybe that's just for us and being teachable and receptive to that has been, uh, has been 00:46:04.680 --> 00:46:05.540 really helpful. 00:46:05.980 --> 00:46:06.740 Last question for me. 00:46:06.740 --> 00:46:08.040 And then I'm going to kick it back to Ashley. 00:46:08.040 --> 00:46:16.100 Um, the, the family dynamic that you talk about, has that, has that helped? 00:46:16.500 --> 00:46:18.140 Has it insulated? 00:46:18.480 --> 00:46:26.940 Has it, how has it pushed your focus in terms of discipleship and in terms of training? 00:46:27.060 --> 00:46:30.800 And where I'm coming from that is again, three kids. 00:46:31.140 --> 00:46:39.580 Uh, we talked about this pre-show, but my kids, they weave their social profile-ness into 00:46:39.580 --> 00:46:43.260 their lives, uh, seemingly without thinking about it. 00:46:43.520 --> 00:46:46.900 They are who they are online and they are who they are in person. 00:46:46.900 --> 00:46:52.080 And for us on this call, it's easy for us to get digital beer muscles and go keyboard commando 00:46:52.080 --> 00:46:57.420 and just crush somebody because we know that there was a life before that. 00:46:57.500 --> 00:46:58.900 And there's an anonymity factor. 00:46:59.880 --> 00:47:06.120 And my job as a dad has been to show them a, that again, everything on the internet lasts 00:47:06.120 --> 00:47:06.380 forever. 00:47:06.500 --> 00:47:07.540 It's not going away. 00:47:07.560 --> 00:47:12.040 Even if you hit delete, number one, number two, uh, you will, these, these are formative 00:47:12.040 --> 00:47:16.900 relationships that you're having on your profiles online, in your conversations, in your 00:47:16.900 --> 00:47:17.260 DMs. 00:47:17.260 --> 00:47:18.680 These are formative conversations. 00:47:18.680 --> 00:47:21.200 These are things that, that is, that is a person there. 00:47:21.200 --> 00:47:23.780 You are to treat them as one of God's children. 00:47:24.520 --> 00:47:28.660 How has that kind of affected what you are doing? 00:47:28.760 --> 00:47:29.660 Has it affected it? 00:47:29.700 --> 00:47:30.720 Has it been negative, positive? 00:47:31.160 --> 00:47:31.700 Go for it. 00:47:32.280 --> 00:47:32.520 Gosh. 00:47:32.600 --> 00:47:32.800 Yeah. 00:47:32.940 --> 00:47:35.180 So my, my kids are a different stage. 00:47:35.220 --> 00:47:37.700 So they're six, five and 18 months. 00:47:38.080 --> 00:47:40.000 So you got a ways, you got a ways, my friend. 00:47:40.100 --> 00:47:43.240 I got a little ways, but, but I will say this though. 00:47:43.240 --> 00:47:50.380 There's, there's a, a certain beauty to a six year old who hasn't learned social norms 00:47:50.380 --> 00:47:56.560 yet that if I'm answering him, but also scrolling on my phone, he's climbed up on a chair and 00:47:56.560 --> 00:47:57.400 grabbed my face. 00:47:57.400 --> 00:47:59.840 And then like, Papa, look at me. 00:47:59.840 --> 00:48:04.760 Like he will, I'm so grateful for that because he has snapped me out of like, that's, and 00:48:04.760 --> 00:48:06.020 that's led to some conviction for me. 00:48:06.060 --> 00:48:10.940 So like part of, part of like my evening liturgy is that when I pull into the driveway, I just 00:48:10.940 --> 00:48:13.220 turn my phone completely off until they go to bed. 00:48:13.220 --> 00:48:17.020 That's just my commitment to them because I don't ever want them to hear my voice and 00:48:17.020 --> 00:48:18.340 not see the whites of my eyes, you know? 00:48:18.820 --> 00:48:25.480 And so that's, that's the beginning stages of like trying to model for them, uh, parameters 00:48:25.480 --> 00:48:26.060 and boundaries. 00:48:26.060 --> 00:48:31.760 You know, we practice a Sabbath once a week where I turn it off for 24 hours and, and they 00:48:31.760 --> 00:48:34.980 now associate Sabbath, not with like this diligent rule following. 00:48:35.080 --> 00:48:37.940 You're like, Oh man, we get, we get all of dad and mom. 00:48:37.940 --> 00:48:42.220 Like that is, it is all hands on deck and it's fun and we, that's, you know, by design. 00:48:42.660 --> 00:48:47.720 So at some level I'm, I'm trying to already model some of that restraint so that they're 00:48:47.720 --> 00:48:51.780 not just seeing me doom scroll and walk like a zombie throughout the house. 00:48:52.480 --> 00:48:57.460 Um, but there are the things that you're mentioning are stuff that I assume that my kids will always 00:48:57.460 --> 00:48:58.700 be more tech savvy than me. 00:48:58.920 --> 00:49:02.060 Like when I meet with parents and they're like, Oh, we have this app that like protects. 00:49:02.160 --> 00:49:04.480 I'm like, your kid definitely knows the workaround for that. 00:49:04.540 --> 00:49:05.440 There's no way they don't. 00:49:05.440 --> 00:49:08.300 Like that does give me a little bit of anxiety. 00:49:08.480 --> 00:49:15.620 So to your formative question, your formation question, I have to put more stock in what 00:49:15.620 --> 00:49:22.520 Eugene Peterson calls a long obedience in the same direction over my capacity to adequately 00:49:22.520 --> 00:49:24.140 police your environments. 00:49:24.340 --> 00:49:26.880 I know that that's about to go away in a handful of years. 00:49:26.940 --> 00:49:27.400 I know it. 00:49:28.400 --> 00:49:30.580 So a formation is more crockpot than microwave. 00:49:31.340 --> 00:49:36.080 I want to be making small deposits every day so that when they're thinking through, Hey, 00:49:36.120 --> 00:49:36.840 how much do I share? 00:49:36.940 --> 00:49:39.580 And in what environments and what does digital permanence look like? 00:49:39.580 --> 00:49:44.940 And how do I, it's less about me creating a 600 page book of bylaws about what they will 00:49:44.940 --> 00:49:45.600 or won't do. 00:49:45.900 --> 00:49:49.840 And more thinking about like, Oh man, how do I, how do I, how do I bring the kingdom to 00:49:49.840 --> 00:49:52.260 earth in this environment or in this conversation? 00:49:52.260 --> 00:49:53.160 Or what does it look? 00:49:53.260 --> 00:49:54.940 It's cheesy, but it's like a WWJD. 00:49:55.020 --> 00:49:58.620 What would, what would Jesus do if he were me in this context or this environment? 00:49:59.220 --> 00:50:04.400 And, uh, I, I'm sure if we were to hop on this call 10 years from now, I'll be like, 00:50:04.460 --> 00:50:09.120 I couldn't have even anticipated the technology that they would be battling against or wanting 00:50:09.120 --> 00:50:10.380 to integrate or hoping to use. 00:50:10.380 --> 00:50:15.080 Like, I can't even fathom it because I'm, I'm already mostly an 85 year old anyway. 00:50:15.740 --> 00:50:18.440 And, uh, so I'm very aware of that. 00:50:18.440 --> 00:50:20.120 And that used to give me a lot of anxiety and more. 00:50:20.120 --> 00:50:24.060 So for me more, it's like, all right, how do we, yeah, how do we, how do we think more 00:50:24.060 --> 00:50:30.440 Crock-Pot the microwave and, and model for them as best we can a healthy digital appetite? 00:50:30.700 --> 00:50:32.140 We watch documentaries, we watch movies. 00:50:32.220 --> 00:50:36.120 We're not Amish, you know, as, as much as I'd like to be every once in a while. 00:50:36.740 --> 00:50:42.500 Uh, but I have conviction around when do you do the iPad thing or is a smartwatch a good 00:50:42.500 --> 00:50:44.000 idea or, you know what I mean? 00:50:44.000 --> 00:50:49.000 Like there's, um, it's, that's how I feel. 00:50:49.000 --> 00:50:54.380 But I also, I also like want to go move to the mountains every 30 days or so and just 00:50:54.380 --> 00:50:54.920 raise cattle. 00:50:55.080 --> 00:51:01.840 So, um, I, I'm trying to do the best I can with what I have for now and recognizing that 00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:05.120 there's a lot that I could worry about that may not, may not ever actualize. 00:51:05.420 --> 00:51:09.000 If you asked me five years ago, how will you help your kids navigate Facebook? 00:51:09.100 --> 00:51:10.040 I'd be like, Oh, I do this. 00:51:10.260 --> 00:51:12.100 Now I'm like, they're not going to be on Facebook. 00:51:12.240 --> 00:51:17.160 Like that's, I would have spent half a decade freaking out about a platform. 00:51:17.160 --> 00:51:19.700 They're not even going to log into, it's going to be something different. 00:51:20.060 --> 00:51:26.040 So I have to, I have to trust the, uh, you know, Annie Dillard says how we live our days 00:51:26.040 --> 00:51:27.140 is how we live our lives. 00:51:27.720 --> 00:51:32.480 I want to live Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday as someone who's thinking about the 00:51:32.480 --> 00:51:37.300 kingdom of heaven here and now and modeling that for them so that whatever tools or resources 00:51:37.300 --> 00:51:40.580 that are available to them 10 years from now, they're thinking through the same thing. 00:51:41.080 --> 00:51:46.760 So last question, cause we're up to the end of time, something that Andy and I talk a lot 00:51:46.760 --> 00:52:00.860 about is if Paul specifically had had the internet, what do you think, I guess the status of Christianity 00:52:00.860 --> 00:52:11.880 or evangelism or just global impact would have been and what could it be if, if churches were 00:52:11.880 --> 00:52:21.960 to stop being fearful of it, stop trying to morph it into traditional methodology and were 00:52:21.960 --> 00:52:29.880 to use it as a, as a very strategic tool to basically impact the world with the gospel. 00:52:30.440 --> 00:52:32.160 I, uh, I forget where it's at. 00:52:32.960 --> 00:52:34.540 I think it's in second John. 00:52:36.020 --> 00:52:37.640 He says something, I'm going to butcher it. 00:52:37.720 --> 00:52:38.080 Forgive me. 00:52:38.140 --> 00:52:40.880 He says something like, I have much more. 00:52:40.980 --> 00:52:46.240 I could write to you, but for this, I'd actually rather tell you face-to-face that to me is 00:52:46.240 --> 00:52:49.100 such a beautiful tension of he's using the technology of his time. 00:52:49.200 --> 00:52:50.560 He's writing, writing letters. 00:52:50.700 --> 00:52:54.140 He's not saying letters are of the devil and the Greeks use the letters. 00:52:54.220 --> 00:52:55.180 So we're not going to use them at all. 00:52:55.420 --> 00:53:00.220 But he also recognizes I could keep writing here, but I actually think what I have left 00:53:00.220 --> 00:53:02.700 to say would be better for me to say in person. 00:53:03.060 --> 00:53:07.760 That to me is such a beautiful modeling of, yeah, both of these have their place and they 00:53:07.760 --> 00:53:14.000 require a, a winsome processing and it's not one size fits all. 00:53:14.120 --> 00:53:18.960 You know, so like, so Marshall McLaurin talks about how we, we have a low information to 00:53:18.960 --> 00:53:24.360 action ratio and part of his reasoning for that was we're not taking in so much data all 00:53:24.360 --> 00:53:28.300 the time from all the world's tragedies, the world over that we're like, I don't know 00:53:28.300 --> 00:53:29.220 what to do about any of this. 00:53:29.300 --> 00:53:34.260 There, there is a part of me that feels like we've lost some of the locality of, man, 00:53:34.260 --> 00:53:35.760 I'm worried about this thing that's happening. 00:53:35.760 --> 00:53:39.460 And sometimes that's appropriate, but is thousands of miles away, but I don't even 00:53:39.460 --> 00:53:40.700 know my next door neighbor's name. 00:53:41.460 --> 00:53:44.640 I wonder if maybe there's a time for a return to some of that. 00:53:45.180 --> 00:53:51.780 And yet I think we've seen so many beautiful, like unique connections of people because you 00:53:51.780 --> 00:53:55.780 can be so specified in a digital space where, you know, like your communities used to be 00:53:55.780 --> 00:53:59.700 very geographically driven and now they're much more interest driven. 00:53:59.700 --> 00:54:05.380 You can find a group chat or a page or a club for literally anything. 00:54:05.940 --> 00:54:11.560 And I think that is in a really beautiful way, dismantling some of what was maybe entrenched 00:54:11.560 --> 00:54:14.680 tribalism, you know, where it's like, no, we're from this area and we're against people 00:54:14.680 --> 00:54:18.180 from that area or this denomination or this church versus that church. 00:54:18.400 --> 00:54:24.680 I think exposure to that much like traveling or reading, you're like, oh, there's other 00:54:24.680 --> 00:54:25.940 ways of seeing the world. 00:54:26.060 --> 00:54:27.640 I saw a TED talk years ago. 00:54:27.760 --> 00:54:30.320 It was from one of the daughters of the Westboro Baptist Church. 00:54:30.660 --> 00:54:36.360 And it is, it is a, such a beautiful TED talk because she talks about technology is actually 00:54:36.360 --> 00:54:41.500 the reason that I was able to see another worldview outside of this, like really toxic one that 00:54:41.500 --> 00:54:42.360 I was born into. 00:54:42.600 --> 00:54:47.300 And she says, listen, I know that everyone's using it this way, but I point to Twitter as 00:54:47.300 --> 00:54:52.620 the thing that helped, helped unlock for me and see just how cancerous this context was. 00:54:53.100 --> 00:54:57.900 And, uh, she wasn't, doesn't work for a social media firm or anything, wasn't advocating 00:54:57.900 --> 00:55:01.280 or selling anything, but it was like, Hey, you might be inclined to knock it. 00:55:01.320 --> 00:55:02.400 It kind of saved my life. 00:55:02.560 --> 00:55:07.260 And I think we're seeing, I think we will continue to see more of that. 00:55:07.660 --> 00:55:12.780 And for, I just keep coming back to the word winsome and wise, you know, Jesus said, uh, 00:55:12.780 --> 00:55:16.060 be shrewd as serpents and gentle as a dove. 00:55:16.060 --> 00:55:17.940 I think he offers both of those intentionally. 00:55:18.360 --> 00:55:23.100 Sometimes personally as Ian, I'm way too gentle and I just love sandwich everything. 00:55:23.100 --> 00:55:25.600 And I don't say the hard thing and I need a little more serpent. 00:55:25.760 --> 00:55:29.800 Sometimes I'm way too serpent and I'm like suspicious and I'm like picking everything 00:55:29.800 --> 00:55:30.200 apart. 00:55:30.200 --> 00:55:33.940 And it's like, Hey, I think you need a little more gentleness of a dove here for Jesus to 00:55:33.940 --> 00:55:34.720 say those two things. 00:55:34.720 --> 00:55:40.540 I think is a helpful rubric for thinking through how do we actually step into whatever this next 00:55:40.540 --> 00:55:47.300 era looks like with wisdom, but also ultimately trusting that like God is, God is not caught 00:55:47.300 --> 00:55:48.480 off guard by this either. 00:55:48.620 --> 00:55:52.140 He's not like, wait, what we have iPhone goggles now. 00:55:52.140 --> 00:55:53.820 Oh boy, didn't see that one. 00:55:53.820 --> 00:55:54.200 You know what I mean? 00:55:54.200 --> 00:55:57.060 Like there's a, I think there's an element of that. 00:55:57.060 --> 00:56:01.500 We can also rest and say, okay, uh, we can step more faithfully into this. 00:56:02.100 --> 00:56:07.860 Uh, and I think trusting the next gen, I think raising up next generation leaders, um, teaching 00:56:07.860 --> 00:56:12.700 them to be, to be pastoral and wise, but also trusting them when the time comes, even though, 00:56:12.700 --> 00:56:17.100 you know, old farts like me might not really fully understand it yet. 00:56:17.100 --> 00:56:20.680 And, uh, I think it's more of a tension to manage than a problem to solve. 00:56:20.960 --> 00:56:27.260 Thank you so much for hopping on with us and, um, this conversation and really truly for what 00:56:27.260 --> 00:56:30.860 you knew, because I know I speak for myself, but I think I speak for Andy too. 00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:38.960 Whenever you're in ministry, like having the nuggets of just discipleship that you bring 00:56:38.960 --> 00:56:40.900 is, is very, very valuable. 00:56:41.140 --> 00:56:48.340 And, um, I think that you keep a lot of people like us going on a much grander scale than you 00:56:48.340 --> 00:56:49.820 probably realize. 00:56:49.820 --> 00:56:50.960 So for that, I honor you. 00:56:50.960 --> 00:56:51.920 And I thank you for that. 00:56:51.920 --> 00:56:54.640 Cause it's the work that you do is really, really important. 00:56:54.920 --> 00:56:55.140 Thank you. 00:56:55.140 --> 00:56:55.740 Thank you. 00:56:55.740 --> 00:56:56.140 Likewise. 00:56:56.260 --> 00:56:57.800 So grateful for you guys and what you're doing. 00:56:57.960 --> 00:57:06.960 Thank you.