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 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

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 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church.

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 But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

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 Is disciple making possible digitally?

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 How should we approach the digital mission field?

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 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space?

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 Oh, and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this?

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 Whether you're a big or small church,

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 The Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church,

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 digitally and physically.

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 And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

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 All right, we got episode 317 of the Church Digital Podcast.

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 Episode 317 of the Church Digital Podcast.

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 Once again, hey everybody, it's episode 317 of the Church Digital Podcast.

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 I had a little button misclicked there.

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 Jeff here.

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 I am very much looking forward to this conversation today.

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 You know, as I was streaming, we got streaming up,

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 we're streaming this live on Twitch and YouTube.

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 My system's been having some glitches with YouTube,

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 so we're doing a buffer video at the beginning to make sure everything's working.

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 And it's all sorts of awkward because there's no music on the video.

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 We need to get more music going on that.

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 So, hey, we've got Flatcap, we've got Yooka-Laylee watching in Twitch World.

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 Some other people over there as well.

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 Let me see.

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 Melanious, Pastor Dez.

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 Pastor Dez, your name is not familiar to me, sir.

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 Welcome to TCD.

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 Thanks for jumping on there.

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 Although it's funny, when I see that, it's like, you know,

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 I see Pastor and like Dez makes me think destroy,

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 which I'm assuming you're not, but it just kind of makes me think that.

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 I don't know.

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 I just watched like G.I. Joe's movie yesterday evening.

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 And so I don't know, maybe that's stuck in the head a little too much.

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 We can criticize me later for that if you want.

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 But, hey, really looking forward to this conversation today.

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 You know, we're in this season.

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 We're digging deep into the idea of digital missionaries.

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 We talked about digital missionaries and really the Lausanne L4 Congress,

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 the Korea Congress that we attended, that Jason Morris, J-Mo and I attended.

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 We talked about that last week.

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 The On Demand just came out, and it was a phenomenal experience

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 and really opened the idea of what the potential for a global digital missionary.

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 Like, you know, we've talked a lot here in the U.S.,

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 and we've worked a lot with in the U.S. people that are called the digital ministry,

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 but maybe their church doesn't necessarily appreciate that.

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 But it was interesting.

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 In Lausanne, like we'd met not a lot of people that were friendly.

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 We had the digital missionaries, digital missions work, or digital anything.

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 Like, they weren't opposed to it.

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 They just didn't know anything about it.

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 And so we really got into the idea of talking with normal missionaries

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 about the idea of implementing digital to extend the reach.

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 And, like, it was a beautiful experience, over 500 conversations,

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 four to 500 conversations, and all around a phenomenal eye-opening time.

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 And we're excited to see what God's doing as a result of it.

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 And so right now, you know, we're broadcasting this on YouTube

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 because that's where a lot of our international friends are.

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 We're hanging out on WhatsApp and developing community, engaging with them.

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 And so what better time to maybe revisit the idea of a digital missionary

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 than right here coming off of Lausanne.

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 And so we're going to wrap up this calendar year talking about digital missionaries.

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 And so as I was revisiting different topics and different ideas,

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 well, to be honest, I've been wanting to get a friend of mine here on the podcast for a while.

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 And so he was posting some stuff on LinkedIn, I think, and I saw that.

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 I was like, oh, my gosh, this is a great topic to explore and to bring in.

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 And so I am really looking forward to introducing to you all Craig Whitney into the conversation.

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 Hey, Craig, how are you doing?

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 Hey, Jeff. Good to see you, man.

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 Hey, good to see you.

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 Man, I'm looking forward to this, Craig.

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 Now, Craig is – I would call him a mentor.

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 Like, I would not hesitate to call him a mentor.

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 He's laughing because he doesn't consider himself a mentor.

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 But I will say this, that I worked with Craig at Stadia Church Planting.

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 And so I had two, maybe three bosses in my time at Stadia Church Planting.

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 And Craig was a phenomenal boss with Stadia.

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 And Craig really opened my eyes to a lot of this digital church planting stuff.

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 Like, yes, it's ironic.

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 I worked for a church planting organization.

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 And really, Confession Hour had no understanding or grounding of what a church planter was

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 or a church planter, anything whatsoever.

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 How I got the job working for a planting organization with no experience.

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 That's a whole other thing.

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 But Craig really kind of brought me in, took me under his wing, and showed me a lot of stuff

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 that not only was helpful for physical church planting, but digital church planting

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 and so much of the digital missions work that we're doing now.

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 And so, Craig, man, thanks for joining us here today.

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 Yeah, it's great to be here.

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 Thanks for the invite.

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 So, Craig's with Multiply Projects now.

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 And so, Craig, why don't you just set up here a little bit and tell us a little bit about

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 what you're doing.

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 Yeah, so I am ancient, right?

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 My wife and I, along with three other couples, started, planted a church back in 1991.

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 I don't know the age of your audience, but for some of them, they may need to be reminded

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 that, you know, the reason our church didn't have a webpage, any social media accounts, stream

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 our services, record them, and put them on podcasts is because none of that technology existed.

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 We bought ads in the yellow pages so that people would know where our church was.

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 Like, that's what it was like in 1991.

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 But I've been involved in church planting for a long time.

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 And really what I have seen over that time, and if you talk to anybody engaged, particularly

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 here in the U.S., the number of people sort of raising their hand and going, hey, I want

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 to plant a church, has just shrunk and shrunk and shrunk and shrunk.

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 Finding someone to start a church now is just incredibly difficult.

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 And so the vision of Multiply Project is to make more church planters.

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 I know that sounds kind of strange, but we're trying to build a farm system.

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 You know, if you've got, you know, run around and you say, you know, there's kids out playing

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 soccer, you know, four and five-year-olds playing soccer.

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 You know, that is part of a farm system that's how you end up with professional soccer players

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 or, you know, if it's football or whatever sport it is.

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 We don't have a farm system for church planting.

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 It just doesn't exist, at least in the U.S. context.

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 And so we really want to create that.

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 And specifically, we want to help churches learn how to call, equip, and send church planters

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 from within their own congregation.

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 A significant part of the church planning ecosystem in the American context outsourced church planning.

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 It was the job of the Bible college or the seminary to make a church planter.

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 It was the job of the denomination to sort of send them.

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 But really, when you think about multiplication, you know, disciples make disciples, leaders make

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 leaders, churches plant churches.

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 And so it's really, really just about sort of how to, how do we get back to that and how

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 they really empower, you know, churches to become multiplying churches that make and send

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 church planters.

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 Yeah, that's, that's fascinating, right?

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 Now, when I was at Stadia, I felt like there was a trend, or at least that I was seeing,

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 there was a trend towards more of a bivocational type of planter.

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 Like not, not a, not a full-time person, but, but at least in the digital space, there was

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 more of a leaning towards bivocational.

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 Are you, are you seeing like even the bivocational is starting to dry up or does, does the typical

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 planter, does the model just look different now?

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 Like what's, what's some of the challenges you're facing?

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 I think co-vocational planting is still sort of on the rise.

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 I think that's going to be increasingly the case.

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 Again, it's sort of a, you know, secular society.

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 You know, the idea of starting a church by renting a school building, putting, you know,

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 up a banner and telling people that there's a new church service happening and thinking

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 that hundreds of people are going to show up and put enough money in an offering plate

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 to pay somebody a full-time salary is just sort of unrealistic.

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 And when you get into high cost areas, it becomes even more unrealistic.

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 I've been doing some research in your part of the world, Jeff.

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 South Florida, Palm, Palm Beach, Broward, Miami-Dade counties.

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 I'm just about opportunities for church planting there.

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 I'm going to be out there in a couple of weeks to share some of that, that research.

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 And a huge part of this is just the cost, right?

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 Costs have skyrocketed, even, you know, post-pandemic.

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 And so what does that look like?

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 And increasingly, I think, you know, we think of the idea of missionary,

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 and we're going to talk about this, as someone that you send away, right?

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 You know, I grew up as a kid.

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 A missionary was a person you sent halfway around the world to make disciples in some

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 other country, some other continent.

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 But I don't think that's necessary to be a missionary.

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 Sometimes you send a missionary next door.

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 And in a lot of places, the person who's already there is the person that's best

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 equipped to be the missionary to those people.

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 And so that's a big part of the idea of Multiply Project, is that there are church

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 planners in your church, and they're already in position to reach the people that are

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 around them.

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 We just haven't been calling, equipping them, and sending them to do that.

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 Yeah, that's intriguing, right?

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 Like helping people find their purpose, their calling.

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 And that's really what I want to dig into a little bit today.

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 Like, you know, Craig, I've talked with you about this offline, but the Church Digital,

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 we pivoted just recently, right before maybe August, September, towards a digital missionary

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 sending agency, a digital missionary, basically model, where we're, instead of just exclusively

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 working with people that are wanting to plant digital churches, like we were for a stretch,

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 we've now gone to recognizing that digital missionaries look very different in all different types of

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 shapes and sizes and skill sets and callings.

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 And, you know, we've got people that are passionate about evangelism, people that are

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 passionate about discipleship.

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 We've got streamers, we've got gamers, we've got community builders, we've got mods,

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 we've got VR people, we've got, you know, Facebookers.

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 That was weird, Facebookers.

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 But we've got all sorts of stuff.

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 Hey, right now, Brew Pastor Joe just walks in for the first time on show.

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 How are you doing, man?

00:11:17.420 --> 00:11:18.340
 It's good to see you.

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 I saw that.

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 Oh, Joe, it's good to see you.

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 It'd be great to see you.

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 But hey, I'm glad you're listening.

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 Well, hey, he's there.

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 He's there somewhere.

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 But anyway, the point being is that we found that there were all of these people hanging

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 around us wanting to to do something for the kingdom and did not necessarily feel like they

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 were planting a church or at least the model of what is typically in someone's head when

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 they're thinking, thinking church like I'm curious as now that you're, you know, working

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 with churches and trying to get them to multiply and and trying to find the people that are that

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 are within the churches, like are they open to different ideas of church and ministry and missionary work?

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 Or are they are they limited in the in the old mindset?

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 Like what what are you seeing out there on the forefront?

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 I think some churches are more open than others.

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 And that's just a reality.

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 You know, for some churches, planting a church means, you know, starting something that looks

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 exactly like them.

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 For others, uh, planting churches looks a little bit more like, hey, we want to plant

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 something that sort of shares our values, uh, but doesn't necessarily have to look exactly

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 like we do.

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 And I think that's actually probably the best place to be a metaphor for that.

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 I would say it's just really almost like being a parent, right?

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 Where, you know, what do you really want your kids to take away from growing up in your

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 home?

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 But you realistically, you probably don't expect them to wear the exact same clothes that you

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 wear, and you probably aren't too bothered if they don't listen to the exact same music

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 you listen to, or maybe they like some different food, right?

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 There's a lot of things that you can kind of accept that your kids of a different generation

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 do differently than you do.

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 But what you really want is that they carry your values right into into the life that they

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 live in.

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 So I think if a church approaches church planting that way, it opens up room for a lot of different

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 expressions, but still creates this ability to sort of sort of own the churches that are

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 started as, as part of our family, as our children, you don't have to look like us.

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 We just want them to value the things we value.

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 And if you value evangelism, discipleship, making disciples and multiplying, those are pretty

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 easy values to pass along to a next generation as well.

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 Interesting.

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 Interesting.

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 So when we were at Luzon, like we were, like I said earlier, we were talking with with physical

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 missionaries globally, like India, Africa, the Philippines, the Pacific Islands, some South

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 America, very, very little US based, for whatever reason, I actually, I don't think I had maybe

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 one conversation US based out of the four or 500.

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 But it was, it was much more of a global missionary approach.

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 Are we, because, because I'm hearing, like, the model may have shifted, where you're not going

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 to get people to pay a full-time salary for planting churches in America.

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 And so we've shifted towards more of a missionary type approach, recognizing that ministry looks

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 different in 2024 and beyond.

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 Are you recognizing that?

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 Like, what does a, what is, what's the difference necessarily between missionary and a church planter?

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 Yeah, so missionary is just, you know, the Latin word missio, it's just the word sent, right?

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 If you go back in ancient language, whatever, people could be sent to do all kinds of things.

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 In the context of, you know, the church or the context of making disciples, we typically think

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 of a missionary as someone who is sent to make disciples.

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 It's a person who's sent on Jesus' mission.

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 It's that simple.

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 I mean, that's all that it is.

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 And so in that sense, we've sort of done a disservice, at least sort of historically, in the American

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 context, the way we've thought of missionaries, because we've sort of made missionaries this

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 really distinct class of people.

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 You know, like, one out of a thousand people, or ten thousand people, becomes a missionary.

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 We're all supposed to be missionaries, right?

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 Jesus told us all to go and make disciples.

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 He sent us all.

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 We're all missionaries.

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 We're all sent on his mission.

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 And so I think, you know, really the idea is, as an individual, do I have a clarity of sort

00:15:50.020 --> 00:15:56.880
 of who I'm sent to and what, you know, my part is to play and, you know, what my role is?

00:15:57.060 --> 00:16:00.360
 And that's really the clarity of becoming a missionary.

00:16:00.700 --> 00:16:06.700
 Where the distinction is, I think, of missionary to church planner is some people could have a

00:16:06.700 --> 00:16:08.580
 very distinct sense of calling, right?

00:16:08.620 --> 00:16:13.360
 Like, I feel called to, you know, make disciples of this particular group of people, evangelize

00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:14.080
 this group of people.

00:16:14.460 --> 00:16:16.120
 But maybe it's my job, right?

00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:19.580
 You know, I go to work every day in an office, and I meet people there, and I share Jesus with

00:16:19.580 --> 00:16:22.720
 people, and I'm a part of a church that's three blocks from my office.

00:16:23.080 --> 00:16:25.580
 So I don't really feel like I need to plan a church.

00:16:25.640 --> 00:16:26.700
 I think my church is great.

00:16:26.700 --> 00:16:31.500
 So when I, you know, introduce someone to Jesus at my office, I invite them to come to my church.

00:16:32.400 --> 00:16:36.660
 Well, I'm a missionary to my workplace, but I'm not a church planter.

00:16:37.680 --> 00:16:37.900
 Right?

00:16:39.260 --> 00:16:44.640
 However, I might feel called to a group of people that wouldn't be comfortable in any church

00:16:44.640 --> 00:16:46.120
 that I can find in my community.

00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:49.600
 I mean, I think it's where a lot of your digital missions and digital church planning come in,

00:16:49.680 --> 00:16:49.920
 right?

00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:52.980
 Is, you know, people are hanging out in space, like, go to a church?

00:16:52.980 --> 00:16:59.540
 Like, that's just not, you know, that becomes a barrier to following Jesus rather than an invitation

00:16:59.540 --> 00:17:00.340
 to following Jesus.

00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:05.620
 So then there's a need to say, hey, if I'm going to evangelize people, they need to, you

00:17:05.620 --> 00:17:09.460
 know, becoming part of a church is part of becoming a follower of Jesus, but there's

00:17:09.460 --> 00:17:10.560
 no church for them.

00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:16.540
 So not only do I need to make them disciples, I need to create a church, a community where

00:17:16.540 --> 00:17:17.840
 they can be disciples together.

00:17:17.840 --> 00:17:19.320
 And then you become a church planter.

00:17:19.320 --> 00:17:25.220
 And so sort of, you know, the logic pieces would be not all missionaries are church planters,

00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:27.540
 but all church planters are missionaries.

00:17:27.700 --> 00:17:28.800
 Hold on one second.

00:17:29.300 --> 00:17:31.680
 Not all missionaries are church planters.

00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:35.060
 Like my calculus brain just exploded.

00:17:35.480 --> 00:17:41.880
 Not all missionaries are church planters, but all church planters are operating missionally.

00:17:42.040 --> 00:17:43.220
 There are, they are missionaries.

00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:44.280
 Should be, yes.

00:17:44.700 --> 00:17:44.900
 Okay.

00:17:45.100 --> 00:17:47.580
 Should be, asterisk, maybe, hopefully.

00:17:47.580 --> 00:17:47.840
 Yes.

00:17:48.740 --> 00:17:49.040
 All right.

00:17:49.120 --> 00:17:49.780
 The good ones are.

00:17:50.020 --> 00:17:50.200
 Anyway.

00:17:51.800 --> 00:17:59.960
 But it's so, for what makes a, this was not even an idea for me, but for this conversation,

00:18:00.180 --> 00:18:02.020
 but what makes a church for church?

00:18:02.120 --> 00:18:04.440
 Like you alluded to a little bit there, community.

00:18:06.100 --> 00:18:08.940
 What's your, what's your minimum ecclesiology these days?

00:18:09.260 --> 00:18:10.380
 It's pretty simple.

00:18:10.760 --> 00:18:12.500
 So I have three components.

00:18:13.860 --> 00:18:14.420
 Jesus.

00:18:14.780 --> 00:18:19.200
 So I was going to say Jesus-centered community, right?

00:18:19.280 --> 00:18:26.020
 It's, it's people who have a sense of belonging both to one another and to Jesus on mission.

00:18:26.260 --> 00:18:29.600
 So Jesus-centered community on his mission together.

00:18:30.020 --> 00:18:30.600
 That's church.

00:18:31.100 --> 00:18:31.700
 Wow.

00:18:32.280 --> 00:18:36.000
 Jesus-centered community on mission.

00:18:37.080 --> 00:18:40.600
 And, um, you know, Craig is, is a supporter of digital church planting.

00:18:40.740 --> 00:18:41.300
 I know that.

00:18:41.420 --> 00:18:45.900
 And so, but I'm, I'm happy to say every one of those you can very easily do.

00:18:46.040 --> 00:18:46.300
 Yep.

00:18:46.780 --> 00:18:47.180
 Digitally.

00:18:47.240 --> 00:18:47.440
 Yeah.

00:18:47.520 --> 00:18:51.660
 And, and, and for me, just, I mean, you understand this, Jeff, you know, the reason I'm a supporter

00:18:51.660 --> 00:18:54.860
 of digital church planting is because that's my ecclesiology, right?

00:18:55.800 --> 00:18:56.240
 Right.

00:18:56.240 --> 00:19:00.820
 I don't, I didn't adapt my ecclesiology to digital church planting.

00:19:00.940 --> 00:19:04.600
 I had an ecclesiology and looked at digital church, but I said, yeah, it, it, it fits.

00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:05.940
 It's all three of those things.

00:19:05.940 --> 00:19:11.020
 So why, why couldn't, or why wouldn't we consider that church?

00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:14.840
 Um, there's nothing in that definition that requires physical space.

00:19:15.380 --> 00:19:15.520
 Love it.

00:19:15.640 --> 00:19:19.220
 Let's, uh, let's, let's pull the thread here and let's, let's get into a little bit here.

00:19:19.300 --> 00:19:24.220
 Now, what I wanted to talk about was, was calling or spiritual calling.

00:19:24.220 --> 00:19:30.880
 And so we're, we're talking about, uh, planters or missionaries that are, um, engaging in

00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:42.020
 work, um, or that have a calling to a particular people, place, location, uh, something like

00:19:42.020 --> 00:19:44.880
 what, what exactly is calling Craig?

00:19:45.220 --> 00:19:50.140
 So, I mean, just don't really think about it, you know, calling in the scripture goes

00:19:50.140 --> 00:19:51.120
 all the way back.

00:19:51.180 --> 00:19:54.440
 Really the first person in scripture who's called is Noah, right?

00:19:54.560 --> 00:19:56.460
 Noah, God calls Noah to build an ark.

00:19:56.560 --> 00:20:00.400
 And we've got Abraham and Moses and Joshua and David.

00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:04.780
 And we just, like, there's all these, you know, people through the old Testament that God calls.

00:20:05.360 --> 00:20:10.080
 Um, and we get in the new Testament, Jesus calls his disciples, Jesus, you know, um, there's

00:20:10.080 --> 00:20:15.680
 the calling of the, uh, what we sometimes call the deacons, but the people in, um, the Jerusalem

00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:17.920
 church and then Saul and Timothy.

00:20:18.100 --> 00:20:20.660
 And so, you know, calling is not this thing we made up.

00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:22.220
 It's all throughout scripture.

00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:30.100
 What I do think is interesting is, um, that some calling in scripture is supernatural.

00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:31.360
 Right.

00:20:31.580 --> 00:20:34.100
 Moses saw a burning bush and talked to God.

00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:38.960
 Um, I have never seen a burning bush that didn't burn up and, you know, had that kind

00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:39.900
 of conversation with God.

00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:44.840
 That was a supernatural experience that, um, Moses had, uh, with God.

00:20:45.040 --> 00:20:50.140
 Now people, you know, if you're a cessationist, this won't work, but I think people still have

00:20:50.140 --> 00:20:51.300
 those kinds of experiences.

00:20:51.300 --> 00:20:57.100
 I don't think God's done calling people in that way, but I think what we miss, because

00:20:57.100 --> 00:21:01.040
 sometimes I think we sit around waiting for that supernatural thing to happen.

00:21:01.260 --> 00:21:06.080
 And what we miss is that there is also a kind of calling of scripture that's relational.

00:21:06.080 --> 00:21:10.160
 The 12 apostles were not called supernaturally.

00:21:11.320 --> 00:21:12.980
 They were called relationally.

00:21:14.260 --> 00:21:17.780
 Jesus walked up to them face to face, had a conversation with them and said, Hey, would

00:21:17.780 --> 00:21:18.520
 you follow me?

00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:26.560
 You know, Peter and, uh, Andrew and James and John, Hey, I'm calling you to get up fishing

00:21:26.560 --> 00:21:28.660
 for fish to go fish for men.

00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:31.280
 That was their calling, but it didn't happen supernaturally.

00:21:31.280 --> 00:21:32.640
 It happened relationally.

00:21:32.900 --> 00:21:36.740
 And so I think that that's very much a part of almost what's missing.

00:21:36.740 --> 00:21:43.860
 Like, why aren't we constantly calling people into mission in a relational way?

00:21:44.860 --> 00:21:48.340
 Um, and so I don't know if that answers all of your questions, but, you know, so that's,

00:21:48.420 --> 00:21:49.380
 that's kind of calling.

00:21:49.540 --> 00:21:54.200
 I think the thing that I wrote about that you saw was talking about kind of how do you help

00:21:54.200 --> 00:22:01.380
 someone clarify their calling and really sort of these three ideas of a people, a purpose

00:22:01.380 --> 00:22:02.480
 and a part to play.

00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:06.640
 A purpose and a, and a part for them to play.

00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:07.480
 Yep.

00:22:07.640 --> 00:22:08.720
 So unpack that.

00:22:09.760 --> 00:22:12.760
 Well, people's probably the easiest part to understand, right?

00:22:12.800 --> 00:22:15.180
 You feel called to a people or a place.

00:22:15.260 --> 00:22:19.020
 And then we go back to, uh, well, uh, maybe step a little bit back.

00:22:19.240 --> 00:22:24.880
 Um, as human beings, our identity matters, right?

00:22:25.620 --> 00:22:29.200
 And whether your identity comes from, you know, where you were born, the circumstance you were

00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:32.780
 born into the people you're born, whether it comes from things that you've chosen for

00:22:32.780 --> 00:22:35.320
 yourself, you know, we all live out an identity.

00:22:35.720 --> 00:22:39.760
 And so, you know, when a person is called, maybe you're called to a geography, maybe,

00:22:39.940 --> 00:22:43.500
 you know, in your case, you think about digital platforms, but I think the bigger question

00:22:43.500 --> 00:22:46.140
 is to think about the identity of those people that you're called to.

00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:47.720
 How do they see themselves?

00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:52.040
 And then say, okay, I'm called to those people who see themselves this way.

00:22:52.520 --> 00:22:55.300
 Um, I mean, I, you know, brew pastor's on here, right?

00:22:55.380 --> 00:23:00.920
 You know, his calling is to the kind of people who hang out in brew problems and breweries,

00:23:00.940 --> 00:23:01.080
 right?

00:23:01.080 --> 00:23:02.120
 I can, I can relate to that.

00:23:02.180 --> 00:23:03.400
 I love what, yeah, I love what he's doing, right?

00:23:03.400 --> 00:23:06.660
 Well, there's, there really is an identity, like, you know, there's the person that sort

00:23:06.660 --> 00:23:09.980
 of hangs there, you know, every now and then, but there are people who like, that's their

00:23:09.980 --> 00:23:12.860
 identity, like their, their life centers around that.

00:23:13.260 --> 00:23:16.420
 Well, if you're going to be a missionary and a church planter among them, you've got to

00:23:16.420 --> 00:23:17.760
 understand that identity.

00:23:17.760 --> 00:23:21.260
 And you probably, that's where calling comes in, uh, you know, for, I'm sure for Joe,

00:23:21.340 --> 00:23:22.160
 we'd be able to talk about that.

00:23:22.220 --> 00:23:24.740
 Like, you know, there's a sense of that's who I'm called to.

00:23:25.300 --> 00:23:27.500
 But I think the second two pieces are important.

00:23:27.620 --> 00:23:29.020
 Like, what's the purpose?

00:23:29.840 --> 00:23:34.960
 And so I think that's important to recognize God doesn't call everyone to plant a church.

00:23:35.120 --> 00:23:38.200
 There's a sense in which he calls everyone to make it disciples.

00:23:39.180 --> 00:23:42.160
 But let's not forget Matthew 25, right?

00:23:42.560 --> 00:23:46.860
 I was hungry and you fed me, thirsty and you gave me a drink, naked and you clothed me,

00:23:46.960 --> 00:23:49.340
 in prison you came to visit me, sick, right?

00:23:49.340 --> 00:23:54.160
 And so I think sometimes the purpose people are called to is sort of fix something that's

00:23:54.160 --> 00:23:57.700
 broken in the world that has a very negative impact on people's lives.

00:23:58.080 --> 00:24:02.680
 I have a really good friend here who's just called to meeting the needs of unhoused population.

00:24:02.860 --> 00:24:05.060
 Like, that's just, that's what he feels called to.

00:24:05.420 --> 00:24:11.080
 Now, he's interested in making disciples amongst those people, but you can't, you can't have,

00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:15.120
 you can't feel called to make disciples of unhoused people and not care about the fact

00:24:15.120 --> 00:24:17.600
 that they're unhoused, right?

00:24:17.600 --> 00:24:21.060
 So, so you, so, so what's the part that you play?

00:24:22.120 --> 00:24:25.540
 What's in sort of the, kind of the, the purpose, how do you know that you're fulfilling

00:24:25.540 --> 00:24:26.720
 the work that you're doing?

00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:29.380
 The second thing I would say, or that's the purpose.

00:24:29.480 --> 00:24:30.960
 And then the second thing is the part to play.

00:24:31.860 --> 00:24:40.260
 So, not everyone is called to be a pioneer or an apostle, right?

00:24:40.360 --> 00:24:41.620
 Apostles start stuff.

00:24:42.840 --> 00:24:46.720
 But what if, you know, you're gifting as a teacher?

00:24:47.600 --> 00:24:51.420
 Um, you might, your part to play might be as part of a team where you teach.

00:24:51.540 --> 00:24:52.740
 What if it's pastoring or shepherding?

00:24:52.780 --> 00:24:55.660
 It might be as a part of, you know, you might, you might not be a leader.

00:24:55.660 --> 00:25:01.160
 So again, I think there's a disservice that we have in the way we've thought of calling that

00:25:01.160 --> 00:25:06.880
 a person who's called is always somehow this point person leader kind of person.

00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:11.540
 Um, I don't think that that's, that's not the case.

00:25:12.220 --> 00:25:18.940
 Um, I mean, even if you think of Jesus, you know, the 12 people that Jesus called, you

00:25:18.940 --> 00:25:25.360
 know, other than a couple of them, you know, a lot of them sort of disappear after his resurrection.

00:25:25.500 --> 00:25:29.460
 Now we have history and things that tells us about things they did, but, you know, Peter

00:25:29.460 --> 00:25:32.180
 became the leader of the church in Jerusalem, not all 12 of them.

00:25:32.760 --> 00:25:37.840
 Um, and so, because Peter had those gifts, that's, that's, that's what he was called to

00:25:37.840 --> 00:25:38.180
 do.

00:25:38.540 --> 00:25:40.760
 We can't assume that the others failed in their calling.

00:25:40.860 --> 00:25:44.620
 They had just different gifts, different roles to play, different purposes to accomplish.

00:25:45.240 --> 00:25:49.880
 Um, and so I think when you, if you understand those three things is where you really get

00:25:49.880 --> 00:25:56.200
 to, and really even this idea that everyone is, can be, and is called to something.

00:25:56.920 --> 00:26:01.520
 Um, and the question is, do you know what those three things are for yourself?

00:26:02.380 --> 00:26:06.760
 You, you do, you think that everyone that's interesting, Craig, I don't know that I would

00:26:06.760 --> 00:26:07.200
 have gone there.

00:26:07.420 --> 00:26:08.940
 Everyone has a calling.

00:26:09.620 --> 00:26:16.440
 So, yeah, I mean, um, I think, you know, every person's created for a purpose, right?

00:26:16.820 --> 00:26:18.100
 Um, we're, we're not accidents.

00:26:18.100 --> 00:26:21.120
 We're created, you know, we all are who we are by design.

00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:22.760
 Um, we're all gifted.

00:26:23.580 --> 00:26:26.660
 Um, you know, each one's given a gift for the common good, right?

00:26:26.660 --> 00:26:31.040
 We're all given a gift that is part of serving the community, serving the mission.

00:26:31.520 --> 00:26:35.280
 And I think when you put all of those things together and you input circumstance, I think,

00:26:35.460 --> 00:26:41.080
 yeah, I think there is, every person has a unique part to play in the kingdom of God.

00:26:41.180 --> 00:26:47.140
 And maybe that's not the way we typically think of calling, but I think that unique part

00:26:47.140 --> 00:26:47.940
 is your calling.

00:26:48.520 --> 00:26:51.760
 Yeah, I just, I mean, everybody has a, has a purpose.

00:26:51.940 --> 00:26:53.020
 I understand that.

00:26:53.060 --> 00:26:57.860
 I just, I had not reconciled that over in my head that, that everybody has a calling.

00:26:58.020 --> 00:27:00.260
 That's, um, poetic.

00:27:00.860 --> 00:27:01.140
 Almost.

00:27:01.880 --> 00:27:05.680
 You, you, you, you should, you should write the, uh, the, uh, the sequel to Rick Warren's

00:27:05.680 --> 00:27:06.520
 purpose-driven life.

00:27:06.520 --> 00:27:13.940
 You know, like your, your, uh, purpose, uh, was it calling, calling driven mission work,

00:27:14.040 --> 00:27:18.080
 something or other money just flying, flying into your pocket right now, just thinking about

00:27:18.080 --> 00:27:18.260
 it.

00:27:18.900 --> 00:27:20.180
 Um, all right.

00:27:20.220 --> 00:27:25.320
 So you need to understand the people that you're called to.

00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:30.920
 I mean, that was some of what we're, we're, we're alluding to, uh, now, you know, with,

00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:36.820
 with the church digital, we, uh, we have a unique approach and we, we talked about this

00:27:36.820 --> 00:27:37.700
 offline a little bit.

00:27:37.740 --> 00:27:40.560
 It's this idea is, is platforms as places.

00:27:41.220 --> 00:27:47.600
 Um, the idea that, uh, you know, the way a normal missions agency looks at Korea, China,

00:27:47.800 --> 00:27:55.580
 India, Brazil, this is how we're going to look at Twitch, Discord, Mighty Networks, Facebook,

00:27:55.940 --> 00:28:02.800
 Instagram, TikTok, and we're going to equip and mobilize people, uh, and send them out

00:28:02.800 --> 00:28:09.300
 to be on mission in these spaces, whether that's to, to plant a church or whether that's

00:28:09.300 --> 00:28:14.900
 to, to be a missionary that's working with alongside other churches in that space.

00:28:15.320 --> 00:28:21.620
 Um, it's interesting, uh, globally, people love the idea here in the U S. Uh, it's been

00:28:21.620 --> 00:28:25.920
 a little bit of a controversial take, if I could say the least, I'm curious platforms

00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:29.560
 as places, what's your, what's your take on that, Craig?

00:28:30.940 --> 00:28:35.240
 I don't have, I mean, I don't, I have zero issue with it, uh, but I would actually sort

00:28:35.240 --> 00:28:39.840
 of move beyond that, um, in, in what I was just talking about with identity.

00:28:40.220 --> 00:28:46.520
 So, uh, why is platform places sort of as places, why is that true instead of whether

00:28:46.520 --> 00:28:48.920
 or not you're sort of arguing, is it true?

00:28:49.480 --> 00:28:54.260
 Uh, and so geography is to a large extent, isn't something we choose.

00:28:54.700 --> 00:28:56.460
 Um, you know, I live in Northern California.

00:28:56.680 --> 00:28:58.160
 I was born in the Bay area.

00:28:58.500 --> 00:29:03.140
 I have traveled all over the world, but I have never other than, well, I should say the

00:29:03.140 --> 00:29:06.060
 farthest I've ever lived from where I was born is about 500 miles.

00:29:06.060 --> 00:29:09.980
 Cause I went to college in Southern California, I live in my college years.

00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:14.820
 I've lived within 200, almost a hundred miles of 200 miles of the place where I was born

00:29:14.820 --> 00:29:17.620
 my whole life, even though I've traveled the world, right?

00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:19.260
 I've lived, how did that happen?

00:29:19.540 --> 00:29:21.140
 Well, it's cause that's where my parents lived.

00:29:21.240 --> 00:29:22.300
 I didn't choose that.

00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:30.520
 Um, and so how much of my identity is wrapped up in my geography, right?

00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:33.560
 Now, for some people, it might be a big deal, right?

00:29:33.560 --> 00:29:38.680
 That the way they think of themselves may have a lot to do with the place where they were

00:29:38.680 --> 00:29:43.320
 born, sort of the, the geography that they received at birth.

00:29:43.480 --> 00:29:48.540
 But I think where you come into the platforms is, you know, I could live in, you know, whatever,

00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:55.200
 Thailand and I don't care about Thailand, but you know, I'm a part of a Twitch community

00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:56.200
 or a discord community.

00:29:56.300 --> 00:29:57.500
 Like those are my people.

00:29:57.700 --> 00:29:58.100
 Right.

00:29:58.380 --> 00:30:05.940
 And so I think that's the reality of digital space in, in really maybe more generationally.

00:30:05.940 --> 00:30:10.340
 So someone who's younger than I am, but I think even people of my own generation, my brother

00:30:10.340 --> 00:30:11.540
 is 12 years older than I am.

00:30:11.620 --> 00:30:16.900
 He's in his seventies and he and his wife are a part of a virtual church.

00:30:18.820 --> 00:30:19.060
 Really?

00:30:19.700 --> 00:30:22.480
 This is not something that is limited to young people.

00:30:24.020 --> 00:30:24.660
 I'd love that.

00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:25.760
 Can you tell me their story?

00:30:25.860 --> 00:30:27.060
 I'd love to hear more about that.

00:30:27.580 --> 00:30:30.320
 I mean, I mean, we, they, we helped us plan a church.

00:30:30.620 --> 00:30:32.980
 Um, you know, our dad was a pastor.

00:30:33.360 --> 00:30:37.240
 Um, he was a technology guy, worked for Hewlett Packard Agilent for his whole career.

00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:39.680
 Um, did a lot of stuff in software.

00:30:40.060 --> 00:30:46.760
 Um, and, um, but yeah, they've just hit a season of life where, um, they made a decision

00:30:46.760 --> 00:30:50.040
 to engage with a virtual church.

00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:55.000
 Um, and so, um, you know, they, you know, attend church online, have a small group that

00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:55.480
 they lead.

00:30:55.780 --> 00:30:59.000
 Um, but it's a virtual community.

00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:03.080
 You have the members of their small group are spread out all across the U S and I think

00:31:03.080 --> 00:31:05.100
 they actually have a couple of people now that aren't even in the U S.

00:31:05.800 --> 00:31:09.620
 Um, so, uh, anyway, um, where was I going?

00:31:09.800 --> 00:31:13.040
 So, so that question of identity comes into play, right?

00:31:13.080 --> 00:31:19.820
 And so, you know, if I'm, you know, if I feel called to a city, there's not a problem

00:31:19.820 --> 00:31:20.060
 with that.

00:31:20.080 --> 00:31:27.200
 I'm not, not against that, but I'm sort of the, the circumstances that causes people to

00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:31.480
 live at the city then determines the people that sort of I'm called to reach, but why can't

00:31:31.480 --> 00:31:38.040
 I just as easily be called to reach people who, um, have already sort of created a community

00:31:38.040 --> 00:31:38.820
 for themselves.

00:31:38.820 --> 00:31:44.180
 And in this case, in a virtual space and probably for many of those people, again, that identity

00:31:44.180 --> 00:31:48.540
 is of greater importance to them than the physical place they happen to live.

00:31:48.780 --> 00:31:52.680
 And I'm sure if somebody has data on this, you know, I could be part of, and you pick any

00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:55.420
 of the platforms, yeah, I can be a part of a community there.

00:31:55.540 --> 00:31:59.940
 I might move hundreds of thousands of miles away from my home, but guess what doesn't

00:31:59.940 --> 00:32:00.260
 happen?

00:32:01.260 --> 00:32:03.980
 My virtual community doesn't change.

00:32:04.980 --> 00:32:05.380
 Yeah.

00:32:06.040 --> 00:32:06.440
 Right?

00:32:06.740 --> 00:32:09.080
 Because that's my, my higher identity.

00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:10.380
 Now the flip side is true.

00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:14.340
 Some people might move from one city to the next and sort of their identity and their community

00:32:14.340 --> 00:32:19.320
 does change because their identity is more tied to their physical space than to a virtual

00:32:19.320 --> 00:32:19.820
 space.

00:32:20.360 --> 00:32:27.600
 So I wouldn't want to argue that one's better or more, I'm just, it's just, if you think

00:32:27.600 --> 00:32:31.040
 of it through that identity lens, you just sort of have to acknowledge, well, it's a

00:32:31.040 --> 00:32:35.500
 it's an either or both and it's not, it's just not one is and one isn't.

00:32:36.760 --> 00:32:43.720
 So that's to me when you say platforms as, as places, I just sort of jumped through that

00:32:43.720 --> 00:32:47.620
 really almost through the place piece to just the identity question.

00:32:47.980 --> 00:32:48.560
 What's your identity?

00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:49.000
 Yeah.

00:32:49.000 --> 00:32:50.580
 Who do you think of as your primary community?

00:32:51.420 --> 00:32:54.420
 Um, and if it's your neighborhood, well, then that's probably where you're going to meet

00:32:54.420 --> 00:32:54.800
 Jesus.

00:32:54.800 --> 00:32:58.140
 But if it's your Twitch or your discord community, that's probably where you're going to meet

00:32:58.140 --> 00:32:58.480
 Jesus.

00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:02.380
 Cause you don't talk to anybody in your neighborhood, your physical neighborhood.

00:33:02.380 --> 00:33:04.280
 So yeah, it's been, it's been interesting.

00:33:04.280 --> 00:33:06.700
 Like even the, no, I appreciate that.

00:33:06.760 --> 00:33:13.800
 The, the platforms as places language, um, we've actually started adjusting it, I guess

00:33:13.800 --> 00:33:14.660
 is the right word.

00:33:14.660 --> 00:33:21.560
 Like, you know, we were, we were test shopping it when we were in Korea and, um, uh, had some

00:33:21.560 --> 00:33:26.800
 good feedback, uh, from, uh, from our leadership and from some others in the space that we were,

00:33:27.380 --> 00:33:35.360
 um, we were losing the, you know, platforms as places that we were losing the people, um,

00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:36.320
 out of that.

00:33:36.340 --> 00:33:42.140
 And so like, it was, we were made it more about the technology than, than about like what you're

00:33:42.140 --> 00:33:43.500
 talking about the, the identity.

00:33:44.120 --> 00:33:50.700
 And, uh, and, and so we, we started wrestling with the idea of people groups instead of, um,

00:33:51.080 --> 00:33:56.140
 you know, platforms as people groups trying to re and reinforce the, the, the people aspect,

00:33:56.140 --> 00:34:02.420
 the, the, the human aspect, the, um, you know, that which so often gets, gets lost in the

00:34:02.420 --> 00:34:07.280
 technology side, which if, I mean, if you know anything about us, relational calling, relational

00:34:07.280 --> 00:34:11.740
 evangelism, relational discipleship, like this, these are all the, the, the things that we want

00:34:11.740 --> 00:34:12.440
 to lean into.

00:34:12.440 --> 00:34:18.420
 And so that was definitely was not, um, on our, on our front.

00:34:19.060 --> 00:34:34.400
 Um, what is, when we look at relational calling, how do we get to the place where we have the

00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:39.560
 relational equity to do something like this?

00:34:40.120 --> 00:34:44.280
 Like what is, what's needed, what's necessary?

00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:45.100
 What are the steps?

00:34:45.180 --> 00:34:46.100
 Does it take time?

00:34:46.180 --> 00:34:47.260
 Is it right off the bat?

00:34:47.320 --> 00:34:48.620
 Does it vary per person?

00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:51.580
 Um, how can we help?

00:34:51.800 --> 00:34:59.680
 We as missionaries, we as people that want to multiply, um, how can we multiply or help

00:34:59.680 --> 00:35:01.920
 multiply relational calling?

00:35:03.180 --> 00:35:03.620
 Yeah.

00:35:04.060 --> 00:35:08.880
 Um, I think there are, um, again, I'm not a cessation.

00:35:08.980 --> 00:35:10.840
 I think there are people who have the gift of prophecy.

00:35:11.520 --> 00:35:16.200
 Um, and sometimes people who have the gift of prophecy almost become the supernatural voice

00:35:16.200 --> 00:35:16.920
 in human form.

00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:22.620
 Um, I have a guy that I know here, a pastor, a church planner here in Sacramento, whose church

00:35:22.620 --> 00:35:27.520
 planning journey, a guy, sort of one of those crazy stories, drug addict, drug dealer,

00:35:27.960 --> 00:35:33.840
 death's door, um, gets saved and is just trying to stay clean and sober.

00:35:34.320 --> 00:35:37.380
 And the pastor just walks up to him, puts his hand on his shoulder, looks him in the eye

00:35:37.380 --> 00:35:38.960
 and says, there's a church inside of you.

00:35:39.660 --> 00:35:41.640
 Like, where does that come from?

00:35:42.260 --> 00:35:46.040
 Um, I, but I don't have that kind of gift of prophecy.

00:35:46.180 --> 00:35:50.440
 I've never claimed to have that kind of gift of prophecy to just walk up to somebody and

00:35:50.440 --> 00:35:51.200
 say that kind of thing.

00:35:51.320 --> 00:35:57.500
 Uh, for me, it's always been about relationship and it's always been about, um, recognizing.

00:35:58.280 --> 00:36:03.180
 And so you watch somebody and you sort of say, you know what, I'm watching the way you're

00:36:03.180 --> 00:36:04.060
 interacting with people.

00:36:04.180 --> 00:36:05.120
 You have the gift of teaching.

00:36:05.240 --> 00:36:06.140
 You have the gift of mercy.

00:36:06.260 --> 00:36:07.580
 You have the gift of evangelism.

00:36:07.700 --> 00:36:10.240
 Like, and you see these things that people do.

00:36:10.700 --> 00:36:13.140
 But what I find is we typically don't call that out.

00:36:13.240 --> 00:36:13.640
 Right.

00:36:13.660 --> 00:36:17.700
 And so we don't go to people and say, I watched, I saw what you did.

00:36:17.740 --> 00:36:19.400
 And this is what I saw.

00:36:19.540 --> 00:36:22.740
 Now, I think there is, and you sort of asked this question.

00:36:23.260 --> 00:36:26.280
 I think, do you think there was a kind of relationship that's needed?

00:36:27.240 --> 00:36:34.740
 Um, I, um, where, why would that person believe me?

00:36:36.280 --> 00:36:36.720
 Right.

00:36:37.100 --> 00:36:42.020
 Um, even if I'm saying something positive, now, again, it's kind of different people's

00:36:42.020 --> 00:36:42.600
 personalities.

00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:44.180
 I'm that kind of person.

00:36:44.180 --> 00:36:48.680
 If people compliment me, um, I tend to just sort of shrug it off.

00:36:48.680 --> 00:36:52.440
 Like I'm my own worst critic, like, yeah, you thought it was great, but here's the five

00:36:52.440 --> 00:36:53.620
 reasons that it was terrible.

00:36:54.360 --> 00:36:59.240
 Um, you know, so, uh, but there are people I trust enough that when they tell me, Hey,

00:36:59.240 --> 00:37:00.780
 you did, you did something really good.

00:37:00.820 --> 00:37:02.280
 I'm like, Hmm, I should pay attention.

00:37:03.080 --> 00:37:08.860
 Um, cause I trust, I trust them, you know, relationally.

00:37:08.860 --> 00:37:11.680
 And so I think there is a certain relationships that's needed.

00:37:12.100 --> 00:37:16.620
 And I think especially when it comes, and this will sound a little bit strange, is almost

00:37:16.620 --> 00:37:20.380
 like pushing people a little bit, if that makes any sense.

00:37:20.740 --> 00:37:26.100
 So, um, and I have friends, people, you know, where you see something in them and you see

00:37:26.100 --> 00:37:31.260
 this potential of gifting and think, man, they, what they could do in the industry impact that

00:37:31.260 --> 00:37:32.320
 they don't see in themselves.

00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:35.040
 And so you can tell them that like, yeah, and then, and life kind of goes on.

00:37:35.040 --> 00:37:35.320
 Right.

00:37:35.680 --> 00:37:40.920
 So, you know, how do you sort of get in their face a little bit and, and, you know, have

00:37:40.920 --> 00:37:46.500
 again, the quality of relationship to push a little bit and say, Hey, like, I'm not going

00:37:46.500 --> 00:37:47.440
 to just let this go.

00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:49.120
 Cause I think this is more than just me.

00:37:49.480 --> 00:37:49.880
 Right.

00:37:49.880 --> 00:37:54.700
 I think there's something God's doing and I can't, I can't speak for God against, I don't

00:37:54.700 --> 00:37:59.540
 claim to have that gift of prophecy, but maybe I would push hard enough to try and

00:37:59.540 --> 00:38:02.360
 get you to stop long enough to listen to God.

00:38:02.520 --> 00:38:07.020
 And if you're going to come back and tell me, you know, I prayed about this and like, this

00:38:07.020 --> 00:38:08.260
 is not God, this is just you.

00:38:08.360 --> 00:38:08.620
 Okay.

00:38:09.320 --> 00:38:12.000
 But how, how do I get you to do that?

00:38:12.060 --> 00:38:12.440
 Does that make sense?

00:38:12.540 --> 00:38:17.120
 Like, how do I get you to slow down enough to pray and to fast and come back and say,

00:38:17.140 --> 00:38:17.780
 yeah, you know what?

00:38:17.780 --> 00:38:21.140
 I really did explore this thing you're talking about and I just don't think it's from God.

00:38:21.240 --> 00:38:21.520
 Okay.

00:38:22.100 --> 00:38:23.540
 Or yeah, you know what?

00:38:23.540 --> 00:38:24.380
 I did that and you're right.

00:38:25.600 --> 00:38:29.380
 Like you're seeing something in me that God put in me and I need to pay more attention.

00:38:29.540 --> 00:38:32.040
 And that requires relationship, right?

00:38:32.120 --> 00:38:37.480
 That, that, that's not, anyway, and it requires more than just a little bit of relationship

00:38:37.480 --> 00:38:46.320
 to really be able to, um, kind of come alongside someone and, and motivate them to really dive

00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:49.840
 deep into who did God create you to be and what did God make you to do?

00:38:50.660 --> 00:38:51.140
 Totally.

00:38:51.340 --> 00:38:55.680
 And in digital space, it requires intentionality with that relationship.

00:38:55.680 --> 00:38:59.140
 Like to get that level of relationship digitally, it's not easy.

00:39:00.020 --> 00:39:03.180
 I, I would honestly tell you the same thing is it's really not that different.

00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:07.640
 It's true in, in, you know, whatever physical, you know, relationships as well.

00:39:07.660 --> 00:39:10.500
 And these are not conversations that happen by accident.

00:39:11.020 --> 00:39:11.760
 Does that make sense?

00:39:11.820 --> 00:39:15.520
 Like, I don't, I don't just happen to be sitting around whatever, shooting the breeze with a

00:39:15.520 --> 00:39:15.700
 friend.

00:39:15.820 --> 00:39:19.900
 I mean, typically this is, you know, a planned conversation, right?

00:39:20.160 --> 00:39:21.060
 I've seen this.

00:39:21.120 --> 00:39:24.920
 And so I call you or I text you and let's have coffee or let's, you know, you know, in

00:39:24.920 --> 00:39:26.680
 virtual space to be, Hey, let's get on a chat.

00:39:26.780 --> 00:39:32.200
 Let's, you know, it doesn't, you can try and slip these conversations into some other

00:39:32.200 --> 00:39:36.800
 thing that's happening, but that's not how they're best had with intentionality and with

00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:38.580
 purpose one-on-one.

00:39:39.260 --> 00:39:44.540
 Um, and yeah, you can do that in digital space just as well as you can do that in physical

00:39:44.540 --> 00:39:44.920
 space.

00:39:44.920 --> 00:39:48.140
 But, but the intentionality is required in both environments.

00:39:49.540 --> 00:39:50.140
 That's, that's good.

00:39:50.200 --> 00:39:50.620
 That's good.

00:39:51.280 --> 00:40:02.560
 Um, so how do I know if I'm called to digital, to physical, to a people group, to a location?

00:40:03.420 --> 00:40:06.260
 What is the, is it peace of mind?

00:40:06.380 --> 00:40:09.000
 Do I get a little halo over my head?

00:40:09.600 --> 00:40:17.800
 Um, like what, what happens to, to, to let me know that I have recognized my calling?

00:40:18.600 --> 00:40:19.900
 So this is sort of funny.

00:40:20.040 --> 00:40:26.600
 Um, this weird phrase, um, if you remember this, um, in Paul's calling, why are you kicking

00:40:26.600 --> 00:40:27.620
 against the goads?

00:40:28.420 --> 00:40:29.220
 You remember that?

00:40:29.820 --> 00:40:30.260
 No.

00:40:30.700 --> 00:40:31.100
 No.

00:40:32.180 --> 00:40:32.420
 Yeah.

00:40:32.420 --> 00:40:35.800
 So it's, it's this, it's in the scripture where it's like, you know, it's basically

00:40:35.800 --> 00:40:41.060
 sort of God saying, Hey, like, I'm, I'm trying to get you to go this way and, and you're resisting.

00:40:42.020 --> 00:40:42.420
 Right.

00:40:42.920 --> 00:40:52.900
 And so, um, I really think that sort of the, uh, whatever the, the best evidence of calling.

00:40:52.900 --> 00:40:56.540
 I mean, obviously prayer, fasting, wise counsel, like all those kinds of things.

00:40:56.760 --> 00:41:01.000
 But I think when you get to the point where you say, yeah, I'm not going to do that, but

00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:06.000
 when, and, but then as you say that, or as you sort of do that, there's just this inner

00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:10.340
 sense of I'm sinning, I'm, I'm going against God.

00:41:10.460 --> 00:41:14.660
 I think that's when you've found like, you got to pay, pay, pay attention.

00:41:14.780 --> 00:41:17.920
 I go, I think God was really trying to tell me to do something.

00:41:18.060 --> 00:41:23.580
 If I can walk away from it and it doesn't bother me and it doesn't bother my conscience

00:41:23.580 --> 00:41:25.380
 and it doesn't bother the Holy spirit.

00:41:26.220 --> 00:41:27.820
 Doesn't mean it was a bad idea.

00:41:27.820 --> 00:41:29.200
 So I want to be really, really careful.

00:41:29.200 --> 00:41:33.660
 It might've still been a good idea, but nothing wrong with actually doing it, but it probably

00:41:33.660 --> 00:41:34.260
 wasn't a call.

00:41:35.500 --> 00:41:35.720
 Hmm.

00:41:36.160 --> 00:41:36.860
 It was optional.

00:41:37.160 --> 00:41:38.580
 I don't think callings are optional.

00:41:39.540 --> 00:41:39.940
 Interesting.

00:41:41.140 --> 00:41:50.840
 The, um, so unset stomach, uneasy rest, uh, unrest, um, lamenting the loss.

00:41:51.420 --> 00:41:55.560
 Um, yeah, I don't, I don't, that's.

00:41:55.640 --> 00:41:55.820
 Yeah.

00:41:56.200 --> 00:41:57.400
 I've worked with church planners.

00:41:58.060 --> 00:41:58.420
 Yeah.

00:41:58.520 --> 00:41:58.660
 Yeah.

00:41:58.660 --> 00:42:00.620
 I've worked with church planners for decades.

00:42:01.460 --> 00:42:05.000
 Um, there's, and again, that's where a lot of it, like, I can't prove my sort of three

00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:05.960
 things from scripture.

00:42:05.960 --> 00:42:09.620
 A lot of this just comes from experience of working with hundreds of church planners.

00:42:10.620 --> 00:42:12.580
 Um, and always the things that I would look for.

00:42:12.740 --> 00:42:14.800
 One is the people.

00:42:15.540 --> 00:42:20.220
 And so I used to always be like, and even in digital face, let's, so someone, it's even

00:42:20.220 --> 00:42:22.500
 your, your, your, your tension of platform is place.

00:42:22.600 --> 00:42:26.780
 People like if someone comes and they're telling me all about the Twitch or discord, like whatever

00:42:26.780 --> 00:42:31.560
 the play, you know, VR, and I'm going to start and all they're talking about is the technology.

00:42:32.760 --> 00:42:33.560
 They're not called.

00:42:34.460 --> 00:42:34.820
 Right.

00:42:35.480 --> 00:42:37.900
 God, God doesn't call people to technology.

00:42:38.100 --> 00:42:39.480
 God calls people to people.

00:42:40.160 --> 00:42:44.020
 Now when they come and that's the, you know, like they know that space, but who they're talking

00:42:44.020 --> 00:42:47.120
 about are all the people they know in that space that don't know Jesus.

00:42:47.300 --> 00:42:49.020
 That's the first sign that somebody is called.

00:42:49.500 --> 00:42:51.640
 I don't care what the technology is.

00:42:52.080 --> 00:42:58.160
 I care that there's people there that you care enough about to, to make, go to extreme

00:42:58.160 --> 00:42:59.740
 effort to try and introduce them to Jesus.

00:42:59.900 --> 00:43:01.200
 That's the beginning of a calling.

00:43:01.900 --> 00:43:05.580
 Then we sort of have those other two questions of, okay, what, what, what's your purpose?

00:43:05.660 --> 00:43:06.220
 Is it evangelism?

00:43:06.300 --> 00:43:06.760
 Is it discipleship?

00:43:06.900 --> 00:43:08.220
 You know, are you forming a church, right?

00:43:08.220 --> 00:43:10.820
 Is there a clarity about what your purpose is?

00:43:10.860 --> 00:43:11.500
 Okay, that's great.

00:43:11.540 --> 00:43:12.800
 Now what's your part to play?

00:43:12.860 --> 00:43:13.940
 What's your role going to be?

00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:17.080
 So you sort of work through those things with someone.

00:43:17.080 --> 00:43:19.480
 Um, I've got a lot of time.

00:43:19.500 --> 00:43:22.160
 I forgot what you were asking, you were asking something.

00:43:22.280 --> 00:43:22.860
 I totally forgot.

00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:23.980
 I started ranting on that.

00:43:24.100 --> 00:43:28.960
 Um, but, um, I just think that's where that clarity comes from.

00:43:29.140 --> 00:43:32.500
 And, and I think it applies regardless of digital physical.

00:43:32.600 --> 00:43:34.660
 So I just don't see them as different people are people.

00:43:35.660 --> 00:43:40.160
 Um, and if you're called to people, it doesn't, it doesn't matter.

00:43:40.160 --> 00:43:44.400
 What is the thing that, that makes a community or an identity of those people?

00:43:46.980 --> 00:43:50.700
 Uh, if you're called to people, it doesn't matter what makes the community.

00:43:51.180 --> 00:43:56.080
 Um, you know, it's, we would always talk about, you know, relationships are real because the

00:43:56.080 --> 00:43:56.880
 people are real.

00:43:57.260 --> 00:44:01.580
 Digital relationships are real because the physical people behind the digital are real.

00:44:02.040 --> 00:44:07.800
 And, uh, and so you're, you're alluding to that even here with this, this conversation, this is so good.

00:44:08.060 --> 00:44:12.660
 Yeah, I don't, so I, but I would just use this to sort of validate that.

00:44:12.780 --> 00:44:26.540
 I, I'm not a part of any specific virtual community, but I have friends that I would absolutely consider to be friends that I have never met in person face-to-face.

00:44:27.240 --> 00:44:27.720
 Hmm.

00:44:30.120 --> 00:44:31.120
 How's that possible?

00:44:31.520 --> 00:44:39.620
 So if it's possible to have friends without meeting them face-to-face, why isn't it possible to have community without meeting face-to-face?

00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:42.760
 That, that's, for me, that's sort of the validation of that.

00:44:42.860 --> 00:44:58.040
 You know, I'm not the anti-technology or anti-virtual community person, but, you know, even as someone who doesn't necessarily live in that or, or, or operate there, I just look at that, that individual example in my own life and go, it has to be possible or else I wouldn't be able to have friends there.

00:44:58.700 --> 00:44:59.420
 Yeah, that's good.

00:45:00.140 --> 00:45:29.860
 Um, talk to us, talk to us, talk to us a little bit, um, naysayers, doubters, critics, um, the, the, the people that are, are, are questioning or are critical towards this philosophy, um, of digital calling, um, you know, has to be with a physical or it cannot be called to, to a technology.

00:45:29.860 --> 00:45:35.260
 How do we, how would we respond?

00:45:35.460 --> 00:45:39.040
 How would we, uh, react in some of those situations?

00:45:39.180 --> 00:45:39.840
 What do you advise?

00:45:40.780 --> 00:45:44.020
 So I'm going to repeat a phrase that I learned from one of my mentors.

00:45:44.740 --> 00:45:46.000
 Go with the goers.

00:45:47.880 --> 00:45:50.640
 The time spent now, don't be rude.

00:45:50.860 --> 00:45:56.300
 Don't, don't, like, don't do something sinful in your response by what I'm about to say.

00:45:57.240 --> 00:46:00.660
 But just, it's a waste of time and energy.

00:46:01.860 --> 00:46:03.140
 Um, go with the goers.

00:46:03.800 --> 00:46:11.560
 Um, there are obviously people who do think you can do ministry here, who are doing ministry here, who can help you and encourage you to do ministry here.

00:46:11.640 --> 00:46:12.180
 Go with them.

00:46:12.900 --> 00:46:22.180
 Um, and, and, and by the way, I guess I would say this, like, noisers aren't limited to virtual space.

00:46:22.620 --> 00:46:24.240
 Like, like, right?

00:46:24.580 --> 00:46:27.420
 So, so don't get hung up on that, right?

00:46:27.660 --> 00:46:33.180
 There's always someone who thinks some new way of doing things is a bad idea.

00:46:35.940 --> 00:46:38.860
 Um, and there will always be that.

00:46:40.580 --> 00:46:43.200
 Um, so just go with the goers.

00:46:43.360 --> 00:46:52.900
 It just, it's not, um, and I think the, you got to be clear in your own convictions, right?

00:46:52.900 --> 00:47:02.220
 You've got to be able to, in a certain sense, you do have to be able to explain to someone why you think this is biblical and, you know, spirit filled and all of those things.

00:47:02.220 --> 00:47:07.620
 But if, if you're good with your answer, it doesn't matter if someone else isn't good with your answer.

00:47:08.380 --> 00:47:18.740
 Um, because if you, it's sort of like, if you really go down that path, you're going to spend your whole life answering critics rather than doing mission.

00:47:19.780 --> 00:47:27.380
 Um, it's just that, that, unless somehow you think that's what you're called to, just go with the goers.

00:47:27.420 --> 00:47:28.080
 Just go do mission.

00:47:29.080 --> 00:47:37.480
 Yeah, I've, I've probably have spent too much time in my life, um, battling the, battling the critics and having those conversations.

00:47:37.620 --> 00:47:40.600
 And, and to be honest, in 24, I'm kind of tired of it.

00:47:40.720 --> 00:47:49.480
 And so even hearing your advice to go with the goers, uh, I was trying to think, I think the first time I heard that phrase was when I was at stadia.

00:47:49.480 --> 00:47:53.180
 Uh, and so I don't know if you were the one that said it or somebody else in there, but, um.

00:47:53.820 --> 00:47:57.060
 So actually, it's a long, long story that we won't go over here.

00:47:57.440 --> 00:48:02.720
 That individual who was one of my mentors was the executive director of the organization that became stadia.

00:48:02.800 --> 00:48:06.680
 He's the person that called me into church planning, was the pastor of the church that I grew up in.

00:48:07.180 --> 00:48:09.040
 Um, there's a long, long history there.

00:48:09.120 --> 00:48:11.240
 So that phrase has a lot of roots at stadia.

00:48:11.360 --> 00:48:14.700
 You could have heard it from somebody else, but you liked it from me.

00:48:15.540 --> 00:48:19.780
 Yeah, it was, um, yeah, I heard it within, on a, on a leadership call.

00:48:20.140 --> 00:48:24.880
 Um, I'm trying to think who said it, but I'm sure it's all, it's all intertwined in there.

00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:25.680
 Go with the goers.

00:48:25.740 --> 00:48:26.420
 I like that.

00:48:27.060 --> 00:48:30.700
 Um, you know, our, the battlefields for us is the mission field.

00:48:30.700 --> 00:48:32.400
 You know, that's, that's what, what I'll say.

00:48:32.460 --> 00:48:40.400
 It's like, I'm, I'm just coming from a guy who spent COVID picking fights and, and addressing those battles.

00:48:41.180 --> 00:48:46.600
 Um, you know, in, in, in fighting, even when I didn't want to, people were coming up to me and fighting.

00:48:47.440 --> 00:48:50.720
 Um, oh yeah, there was, I mean, there was a situation in Korea.

00:48:50.840 --> 00:48:53.040
 Somebody came up and, and wanted to pick a fight.

00:48:53.800 --> 00:49:00.080
 Um, I won't, I won't get into it, but, um, you know, it's interesting.

00:49:00.080 --> 00:49:01.980
 The battle really is never about you.

00:49:02.580 --> 00:49:09.260
 Um, in this situation, the guy in Korea that was, um, that was picking a fight with me on

00:49:09.260 --> 00:49:12.780
 digital church, cause he didn't feel like digital community was worthy of a church.

00:49:13.440 --> 00:49:21.660
 Uh, he worked for a Christian book publishing company and, um, who's struggling right now?

00:49:22.020 --> 00:49:26.220
 Maybe worse than churches, uh, book publishers, uh, are.

00:49:26.340 --> 00:49:32.620
 And so, you know, I'll, I'll be, I'm the digital community guy, by the way, you still own a

00:49:32.620 --> 00:49:33.240
 Christian bookstore.

00:49:33.240 --> 00:49:34.700
 So I can feel the guy's pain.

00:49:35.180 --> 00:49:42.020
 Um, but when, um, when, when he's, when he's yelling at me, I'm like, this guy's not yelling

00:49:42.020 --> 00:49:42.460
 at me.

00:49:42.460 --> 00:49:45.520
 It's, it's nothing about Jeffrey personally towards that.

00:49:45.520 --> 00:49:50.860
 So, Hey, um, Craig, I would love to get your feedback on something.

00:49:51.200 --> 00:49:55.180
 Um, so we have a, a mobilization process.

00:49:55.180 --> 00:49:56.560
 We're starting to roll out.

00:49:56.700 --> 00:49:57.040
 And you know what?

00:49:57.060 --> 00:50:02.080
 I don't even think we've really have talked about this much with, um, with, with the church

00:50:02.080 --> 00:50:02.460
 digital.

00:50:02.460 --> 00:50:06.200
 And so some of them may be the first time they're really hearing this where we're really

00:50:06.200 --> 00:50:12.500
 just putting it out now where, where, what we're trying to do is we are trying to get

00:50:12.500 --> 00:50:15.620
 in some of the, your identity and calling.

00:50:15.620 --> 00:50:18.340
 And some of this is going to get, uh, wrapped up.

00:50:18.360 --> 00:50:22.200
 And I've been asking you a specific question, uh, cause I want your take on it.

00:50:22.840 --> 00:50:27.100
 Um, we're trying to equip and to mobilize people.

00:50:27.100 --> 00:50:29.540
 Our framework is the people we connect to.

00:50:29.820 --> 00:50:32.440
 We want to invite into a community.

00:50:32.440 --> 00:50:36.240
 And right now the church digital, we have two communities in discord and WhatsApp.

00:50:36.500 --> 00:50:42.580
 And within those communities, we build relationship, establish trust, uh, discipleship, you know,

00:50:42.580 --> 00:50:45.960
 just get that, uh, even evangelism.

00:50:45.960 --> 00:50:51.400
 Uh, if you're a missionary level, church digital is not necessarily, uh, but the ultimate purpose

00:50:51.400 --> 00:50:59.240
 is, is to equip people, uh, and then to, to, to find their calling, to equip them.

00:50:59.400 --> 00:51:01.960
 And then mobilize them and send them out.

00:51:01.960 --> 00:51:11.280
 Um, now for mobilization, we've, we've started what we call outposts, uh, where we, we find

00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:19.060
 people that are doing digital ministry that can multiply what they're doing, that can mentor,

00:51:19.200 --> 00:51:22.000
 that can apprentice others in that space.

00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:28.980
 And, and so what we do centralized for equipping is more about the, the theological and the,

00:51:28.980 --> 00:51:35.400
 the tactical, the more of the, the theology and the strategy, uh, of what the call of what

00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:37.000
 their, their mission is.

00:51:37.060 --> 00:51:42.920
 But then the, the practicality, the, the technical aspects of that, you know, we, we send that out

00:51:42.920 --> 00:51:45.480
 to the field with the, the experts to be hands-on.

00:51:46.560 --> 00:51:50.760
 So there's been a interesting conversation among leadership.

00:51:51.440 --> 00:51:58.940
 Uh, I would love your take on this where, uh, like right now we have, and this gets back

00:51:58.940 --> 00:52:06.900
 to the people groups versus, uh, uh, platforms, uh, like we've got Simon who's in, uh, Germany,

00:52:06.900 --> 00:52:13.220
 who's leading one of our networks and, and, and we're bringing on, uh, Abby in India.

00:52:13.220 --> 00:52:19.020
 And we're working with Topay in Africa and, uh, you know, uh, you know, I can rattle off a whole

00:52:19.020 --> 00:52:25.280
 bunch of other different places, Adrian and Oceania, um, like where these are people that

00:52:25.280 --> 00:52:31.540
 are digitally savvy, digital friendly, understand digital church, digital discipleship, uh, but

00:52:31.540 --> 00:52:33.240
 they're into a physical location.

00:52:33.240 --> 00:52:35.300
 And so we've been breaking that apart.

00:52:35.960 --> 00:52:42.040
 Um, and, and some of us are starting to question the people groups and instead wanting to push

00:52:42.040 --> 00:52:51.100
 more towards platforms, uh, because platforms are, are, um, outside of location.

00:52:51.280 --> 00:52:57.620
 Like I can be engaged with somebody on discord, regardless of where they live.

00:52:57.620 --> 00:53:02.500
 Like, why am I going to limit my reach by, by a people or a people group?

00:53:03.280 --> 00:53:07.580
 Um, I know you're coming in from the outside and this is, you know, I'm asking a deep question

00:53:07.580 --> 00:53:14.140
 right off here, but what, like, as we're looking at multiplying this out and mobilizing people

00:53:14.140 --> 00:53:22.800
 out, um, grouping them into, uh, into people groups or via platforms, do you, do you have

00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:26.760
 a, a, a, a preference on that or an opinion?

00:53:27.260 --> 00:53:28.860
 I don't, I think it's hard.

00:53:28.860 --> 00:53:36.500
 I'm not, I'm, I don't know how to a certain extent, obviously people groups are the priority,

00:53:36.500 --> 00:53:41.080
 but I think there's a dynamic, which it's hard to separate the people groups from the platform.

00:53:41.900 --> 00:53:42.360
 Right.

00:53:42.740 --> 00:53:50.200
 So if I'm a person who, and again, I just think, well, I should say there'll be plenty of people

00:53:50.200 --> 00:53:53.180
 who sort of live cross, you know, cross platform, right?

00:53:53.380 --> 00:53:54.880
 They're on multiple platforms.

00:53:55.000 --> 00:53:59.840
 They have relationships on multiple platforms, but there will also be many people who sort

00:53:59.840 --> 00:54:03.180
 of, um, have prioritized a platform.

00:54:03.180 --> 00:54:06.640
 Like that's prime, even though they might go to some other platforms, like this, this is

00:54:06.640 --> 00:54:08.020
 the platform that's my home.

00:54:08.420 --> 00:54:12.000
 And this is where I hang out, where I know the most people, you know, where I prioritize

00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:12.900
 my time.

00:54:13.560 --> 00:54:18.420
 And so I, I think, and again, you're probably more of an expert, but I do sort of think there's

00:54:18.420 --> 00:54:27.300
 a dynamic in which even if you focus on people groups, that doesn't, that doesn't make any

00:54:27.300 --> 00:54:31.120
 particular effort platform agnostic, um, in digital space.

00:54:31.120 --> 00:54:37.060
 It's hard, like, as a, like at the highest sort of what's our mission level, sure, you can

00:54:37.060 --> 00:54:38.620
 be platform agnostic, right?

00:54:38.660 --> 00:54:40.640
 And say, hey, we want to make disciples of all people.

00:54:41.040 --> 00:54:45.820
 So, you know, our, our big mission at the church digital isn't just about Twitch or discord

00:54:45.820 --> 00:54:54.640
 or, you know, WhatsApp or whatever, but when you think about particular ministries, I mean,

00:54:54.660 --> 00:54:58.520
 I guess you could, and again, I, you know, more than I do, you could have a ministry or something

00:54:58.520 --> 00:55:02.220
 that sort of is cross platform, you know, we use WhatsApp for this, we use this for the,

00:55:02.280 --> 00:55:03.080
 I don't know.

00:55:03.660 --> 00:55:10.320
 Uh, but I, I, I think if I'm, and I think this is always probably the question, if I'm thinking

00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:17.440
 through the lens or the filter of the person who is not following Jesus, right?

00:55:17.580 --> 00:55:22.780
 And that is a missionary, that's what you're supposed to do, then a missionary goes to where

00:55:22.780 --> 00:55:23.940
 they are.

00:55:25.000 --> 00:55:32.000
 And I think that's where, even though your focus is of people, it's hard to be platform agnostic

00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:36.900
 because you're going to have to be on a platform to meet them.

00:55:37.060 --> 00:55:38.640
 It's just, it just is what it is.

00:55:38.740 --> 00:55:44.740
 And it's sort of like, if I want to meet somebody who lives in, you know, I don't know, Kalamazoo,

00:55:44.800 --> 00:55:46.200
 I'm probably going to have to travel to Cal.

00:55:46.540 --> 00:55:51.520
 It's just, you know, geographic space requires that you be in that space to reach people in

00:55:51.520 --> 00:55:52.060
 that space.

00:55:52.060 --> 00:56:03.460
 Um, I don't know, I just, I don't know that, I don't know that you can pull those apart.

00:56:03.860 --> 00:56:06.660
 I do think that people groups are the priority.

00:56:06.660 --> 00:56:11.040
 I think that that's sort of where that sort of the technology piece comes in.

00:56:11.160 --> 00:56:15.340
 If I become over enamored with a particular technology, I'm probably not thinking about

00:56:15.340 --> 00:56:16.680
 making disciples of people.

00:56:17.740 --> 00:56:24.320
 Um, but even when I'm thinking of making disciples with people, I may quickly discover those

00:56:24.320 --> 00:56:25.700
 people are on this platform.

00:56:25.700 --> 00:56:27.800
 And so that's what becomes my priority.

00:56:28.760 --> 00:56:29.280
 Yeah.

00:56:29.860 --> 00:56:31.400
 You know, it's, it's interesting.

00:56:31.580 --> 00:56:37.320
 I, I, I would tell the story, like in, in my twenties, I was obsessed with, with technology

00:56:37.320 --> 00:56:44.540
 and, um, just like, uh, and, and really love technology for technology's sake.

00:56:44.960 --> 00:56:50.000
 Um, and, and, and I've worked for a church that was using technology.

00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:53.340
 Like, and so, you know, I don't know that that's, I'm, don't hear me being critical.

00:56:53.540 --> 00:56:55.720
 That's not, that's not a, that's not a bad thing.

00:56:56.020 --> 00:56:56.220
 Yeah.

00:56:56.440 --> 00:57:04.580
 In, in my, in my thirties, um, you know, I started recognizing relationships through the

00:57:04.580 --> 00:57:14.800
 technology and started, um, gaining, uh, traction and doing ministry with people utilizing

00:57:14.800 --> 00:57:15.680
 the technology.

00:57:15.680 --> 00:57:20.520
 Like it stopped being about the technology and it became more about, about the people.

00:57:21.120 --> 00:57:26.260
 And it, and it's funny, like, and now in my forties, that's only been magnified, of course,

00:57:26.300 --> 00:57:27.100
 to the church digital.

00:57:27.460 --> 00:57:29.760
 Um, like I, I run an AVL company.

00:57:29.760 --> 00:57:36.740
 I still get people texting me all the time, asking me basic AVL questions that I no longer

00:57:36.740 --> 00:57:41.840
 have a clue on because I have, I've been out of that game for a decade plus, but people

00:57:41.840 --> 00:57:43.300
 think that, you know, I still am.

00:57:43.300 --> 00:57:45.860
 And, and, you know, just yesterday, somebody was looking for something.

00:57:45.940 --> 00:57:48.220
 I was like, let me connect you with my friend, Garrett.

00:57:48.400 --> 00:57:49.700
 Garrett can help you with that.

00:57:49.840 --> 00:57:50.420
 And, you know, Garrett.

00:57:50.640 --> 00:57:52.380
 You remember that that's part of my background, right?

00:57:52.440 --> 00:57:55.360
 I did concert audio back in the days when there was no digital.

00:57:55.600 --> 00:57:59.300
 I walk in and I look at an audio, you know, concert audio set up, but I just shake my head

00:57:59.300 --> 00:58:00.420
 like, I have no idea.

00:58:02.040 --> 00:58:07.100
 You got no, no clue, but, uh, yeah, you've got quite the record player behind you.

00:58:07.160 --> 00:58:09.780
 I see that, you see that looming in the background behind you.

00:58:09.880 --> 00:58:14.540
 I can't see it on my screen, but yes, my audio rig is behind me with all the vinyl, the audio,

00:58:14.680 --> 00:58:16.580
 the audio rig with the vinyl.

00:58:17.260 --> 00:58:25.160
 Um, but it really, it does come down to, you know, I, I, part of this calling is, is recognizing

00:58:25.160 --> 00:58:31.220
 it's not technology for technology's sake and, and it's, and it's feeling called to the people

00:58:31.220 --> 00:58:34.180
 you can reach through the technology.

00:58:34.180 --> 00:58:39.420
 And I, I would say, suggest that's the difference in the digital missionaries is because now we

00:58:39.420 --> 00:58:47.820
 get the opportunity to, um, to reach and engage people missionally, um, through the technology

00:58:47.820 --> 00:58:52.000
 that we may not be able to have access to in, in other ways.

00:58:52.180 --> 00:58:54.920
 And so, yeah, it's, it's technology for people's sake.

00:58:55.160 --> 00:58:56.980
 That, that, that's for people's sake.

00:58:57.340 --> 00:58:57.540
 Yeah.

00:58:57.640 --> 00:58:59.020
 It's technology for people's sake.

00:58:59.260 --> 00:59:06.080
 And if you go backwards through history, you'll quickly discover that this is nothing new, right?

00:59:06.180 --> 00:59:08.100
 What was the first thing that Gutenberg printed?

00:59:09.960 --> 00:59:13.520
 The Bible, the, the letters, the Bible, right?

00:59:13.880 --> 00:59:14.740
 He printed the Bible.

00:59:15.460 --> 00:59:18.760
 Um, you know, how did missionaries end up in China and Africa?

00:59:20.680 --> 00:59:23.240
 Ships could cross the ocean, right?

00:59:23.360 --> 00:59:27.260
 Like, we don't, see, we get, we come forward and we don't think of that as technology.

00:59:27.980 --> 00:59:28.380
 Yeah.

00:59:29.300 --> 00:59:30.220
 But it was.

00:59:30.920 --> 00:59:31.280
 Yeah.

00:59:31.280 --> 00:59:36.420
 Billy Graham did all sorts of stuff as, as a radio, uh, radio and massive innovation.

00:59:36.420 --> 00:59:39.180
 And then, and then he was criticized so much for it.

00:59:39.580 --> 00:59:39.700
 Yeah.

00:59:39.780 --> 00:59:39.960
 Yeah.

00:59:40.140 --> 00:59:42.320
 Television, um, technology.

00:59:42.540 --> 00:59:48.000
 And so technology is just, I was reading something that's just actually, I finished reading a book over the weekend.

00:59:48.000 --> 00:59:54.860
 And one of the, Arthur made the argument that basically was saying, uh, you know, so like I would say about money, technology is neutral.

00:59:54.980 --> 00:59:57.140
 It's neither good nor bad.

00:59:57.600 --> 01:00:01.240
 And almost any technology can be used to accomplish either thing.

01:00:02.060 --> 01:00:02.460
 Right.

01:00:02.860 --> 01:00:04.800
 Money can be used good for money can be used for evil.

01:00:05.100 --> 01:00:08.920
 You take any of the digital platforms that any of your people are working on.

01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:12.060
 I guarantee there are people who are using those platforms for evil.

01:00:12.680 --> 01:00:14.980
 That doesn't make the platform evil.

01:00:15.540 --> 01:00:18.200
 It makes the people who are doing those things.

01:00:18.400 --> 01:00:19.780
 It makes it like, right.

01:00:19.840 --> 01:00:22.980
 Because you can just as easily use the same platform for good.

01:00:23.220 --> 01:00:29.040
 So that's the sense in which I would be platform agnostic because it's just technology for the sake of people.

01:00:29.160 --> 01:00:30.120
 It's always about the people.

01:00:30.980 --> 01:00:31.380
 So good.

01:00:31.820 --> 01:00:32.300
 All right.

01:00:32.400 --> 01:00:34.260
 Hey, Craig, this has been awesome.

01:00:34.360 --> 01:00:35.860
 And I want to give a shout out here.

01:00:36.160 --> 01:00:44.260
 Uh, Phantom Methos, uh, you have, uh, yes, you have to know the platform culture and meet people where they are.

01:00:44.340 --> 01:00:46.460
 That's not what I was looking for up above that.

01:00:46.520 --> 01:00:46.760
 Sorry.

01:00:46.940 --> 01:00:50.020
 Remember, you don't have to start something new on your own.

01:00:50.240 --> 01:00:56.900
 You can always join something existing, uh, that is, uh, starving for help.

01:00:56.900 --> 01:01:01.880
 Uh, and so, yeah, I mean, that's, that's part of the community that we want through TCD.

01:01:02.020 --> 01:01:02.440
 Go ahead, Craig.

01:01:02.760 --> 01:01:03.980
 That might be your calling.

01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:08.440
 Interesting.

01:01:10.140 --> 01:01:10.820
 Unpack that.

01:01:11.440 --> 01:01:14.580
 Well, um, God didn't gift everyone to be an apostle.

01:01:16.940 --> 01:01:26.560
 So if you assume that calling is for people who sort of fulfill apostolic roles, that just doesn't, it doesn't really fly.

01:01:26.700 --> 01:01:30.380
 I mean, truthfully, you know, Timothy was not called to be an apostle.

01:01:30.560 --> 01:01:31.440
 Paul was the apostle.

01:01:31.660 --> 01:01:33.140
 Timothy was a pastor and teacher.

01:01:35.040 --> 01:01:42.980
 Paul sent him to churches that Paul had started to teach and shepherd people there.

01:01:46.020 --> 01:01:52.400
 See, so that's, it's knowing what you're, what you're calling is, right?

01:01:52.600 --> 01:01:54.480
 I mean, cause you're called to be an apostle.

01:01:54.680 --> 01:01:55.720
 You're called to be a, yeah.

01:01:55.940 --> 01:01:56.140
 Yeah.

01:01:57.640 --> 01:01:58.300
 It's beautiful.

01:02:00.520 --> 01:02:00.880
 Awesome.

01:02:01.460 --> 01:02:03.900
 Craig, I've appreciated this time, man.

01:02:03.960 --> 01:02:04.720
 It's, it's always good.

01:02:04.760 --> 01:02:06.060
 We need, we need to do this more often.

01:02:06.860 --> 01:02:09.600
 Um, I've missed the past couple exponentials.

01:02:09.600 --> 01:02:12.260
 So I feel like I haven't seen you in a, in a stretch, but, uh,

01:02:12.340 --> 01:02:18.660
 if you're coming down here to South Florida, we should, uh, I'll, I'll, I'll drive up to where you are, man.

01:02:18.680 --> 01:02:20.100
 Let me, let me buy you a coffee or something.

01:02:20.400 --> 01:02:20.600
 Yeah.

01:02:20.640 --> 01:02:21.220
 I'll shoot you.

01:02:21.420 --> 01:02:24.940
 Um, when I've got, I've still got some availability, so I'll shoot you sometimes when we get together.

01:02:25.500 --> 01:02:26.460
 Sounds, sounds good.

01:02:26.480 --> 01:02:28.680
 As we're, we're landing the plane here, any closing thoughts?

01:02:30.280 --> 01:02:38.380
 Um, you know, I think I would say this just because, you know, be, be encouraged.

01:02:38.800 --> 01:02:45.140
 You know, it, it is sort of easy when you're doing something new and different to be discouraged by the naysayers.

01:02:45.940 --> 01:02:50.680
 Um, and it's just, it, it's easy, but it's the wrong place to look.

01:02:50.760 --> 01:02:57.360
 You know, be encouraged, uh, by what you sense God calling you to do and be encouraged by the fruit that comes from your ministry.

01:02:57.600 --> 01:03:05.420
 Ultimately, that's sort of the, that's the ultimate evidence that, that God's using this.

01:03:05.780 --> 01:03:07.960
 And so, you know, focus there.

01:03:08.300 --> 01:03:10.500
 Um, just be encouraged.

01:03:10.600 --> 01:03:11.360
 Don't be discouraged.

01:03:11.780 --> 01:03:12.920
 And, um, awesome.

01:03:13.480 --> 01:03:18.700
 Well, Craig, thanks for taking the time, jumping on the podcast and, uh, and encouraging us here.

01:03:19.120 --> 01:03:22.820
 Uh, it's been, been a lot of fun, uh, digging into this topic on digital calling.

01:03:22.820 --> 01:03:27.120
 We'll have more digital missionary topics coming up.

01:03:27.300 --> 01:03:27.580
 Dr.

01:03:27.720 --> 01:03:29.280
 John's coming up next week.

01:03:30.160 --> 01:03:35.740
 Um, uh, I, I, I think we're talking a pest, you know, well, it duck John's involved.

01:03:35.840 --> 01:03:40.440
 We'll talk some a pest and some other things I'm sure as well, but, uh, but stay tuned.

01:03:40.440 --> 01:03:45.240
 And so for, uh, for Craig, uh, this is Jeff, uh, with the church digital.

01:03:45.240 --> 01:03:47.040
 Thanks for hanging out with us here on the pod.

01:03:47.080 --> 01:03:48.140
 We'll see you next time on the show.

01:03:48.140 --> 01:03:49.380
 Y'all be good.