WEBVTT 00:00:00.300 --> 00:00:02.380 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:03.360 --> 00:00:07.220 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church. 00:00:07.580 --> 00:00:11.040 But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. 00:00:11.660 --> 00:00:13.260 Is disciple making possible digitally? 00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:15.720 How should we approach the digital mission field? 00:00:16.040 --> 00:00:18.580 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? 00:00:19.020 --> 00:00:22.900 Oh, and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this? 00:00:23.640 --> 00:00:25.800 Whether you're a big or small church, 00:00:25.800 --> 00:00:30.640 the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:32.500 digitally and physically. 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:34.640 And now here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:00:34.980 --> 00:00:38.320 Hey, everybody. Welcome to the stream here. 00:00:38.380 --> 00:00:42.440 We are streaming live on Twitch and the Church Digital. 00:00:42.980 --> 00:00:43.820 Hey, Jeff here. 00:00:44.660 --> 00:00:45.740 Hope you're having a good day. 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:47.440 I'm looking forward to this conversation. 00:00:47.640 --> 00:00:51.940 We've got Dr. John coming into the conversation in just here a little bit. 00:00:52.020 --> 00:00:53.120 We're streaming a little late. 00:00:53.220 --> 00:00:54.460 I apologize for that. 00:00:54.760 --> 00:00:59.200 Honestly, Dr. John and I started having a conversation off air, lost track of time. 00:00:59.420 --> 00:01:02.880 Honestly, I love getting to hang out with this guy. 00:01:03.400 --> 00:01:06.080 I learn so much from him. 00:01:06.220 --> 00:01:15.360 He challenges me on a regular basis to think outside of the box, to stretch norms. 00:01:15.860 --> 00:01:21.380 And he's always, always, always bringing different ideas to the table. 00:01:21.380 --> 00:01:23.560 And so I'm excited about this. 00:01:24.200 --> 00:01:27.120 And so, hey, listen, I'm trying to think, hey, you know what? 00:01:27.660 --> 00:01:29.940 I'm going to do this. 00:01:30.820 --> 00:01:32.180 I was not going to do this. 00:01:33.120 --> 00:01:35.600 I didn't tell leadership I was going to do this. 00:01:35.660 --> 00:01:36.700 But I'm going to do this. 00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:42.120 Because you guys, if you're watching the streams and if you're a podcast, you're the inner crowd. 00:01:42.820 --> 00:01:49.120 And so I'm going to let you in here on a little secret here at the beginning of the podcast before we get into this with Dr. John. 00:01:49.480 --> 00:01:54.240 The Church Digital, we're beta something right now. 00:01:54.440 --> 00:01:56.620 And we're not even talking about this publicly. 00:01:57.340 --> 00:01:59.780 This is a very, very quiet beta. 00:01:59.980 --> 00:02:08.200 But since you're the podcast audience and since you're the streamer's audience, we're going to let you get the inside scoop at this moment. 00:02:08.660 --> 00:02:10.200 I'll probably get in trouble for this. 00:02:10.400 --> 00:02:11.220 Barbara will yell at me. 00:02:11.320 --> 00:02:12.240 But it'll be okay. 00:02:12.580 --> 00:02:13.500 Look, here's the deal. 00:02:14.020 --> 00:02:28.800 We at the Church Digital, we are testing a new Equipping Digital Missionaries, an online cohort that we are actually implementing globally at three or four different locations across the planet. 00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:30.420 It's going to start November 10th. 00:02:30.580 --> 00:02:41.740 It's a 12-week course designed to help equip, to start, to give normal people like you training on how to be a digital missionary. 00:02:42.160 --> 00:02:44.540 And we talked about this a lot at Lausanne. 00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:50.300 And, oh, my gosh, there was so much excitement centered around this as we were talking with missionaries about this. 00:02:50.300 --> 00:02:58.320 And even in the digital space here in America, trying to give some clarity that some of us innovators, some innovators like you that are doing something different. 00:02:58.640 --> 00:03:00.920 And so, hey, I'm just going to say this. 00:03:01.020 --> 00:03:04.000 We're not going to talk about this a lot, but I'm going to tell you this one time. 00:03:04.020 --> 00:03:07.840 If you're interested in this Equipping Digital Missionaries course, it's completely free. 00:03:08.720 --> 00:03:11.000 It is beta, so we're looking for feedback. 00:03:11.260 --> 00:03:13.700 And it's going to start the week of November 10th. 00:03:13.700 --> 00:03:21.600 For more information, go ahead and swing over to the church.digital slash EDM, Equipping Digital Missionaries. 00:03:21.600 --> 00:03:23.540 It's Dr. – no, I'm sorry, JMO. 00:03:24.200 --> 00:03:27.920 JMO, Jason Morris, Create Designed course. 00:03:28.540 --> 00:03:33.760 A bunch of us have been curating it and putting it together, and it's going to be a lot of fun. 00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:41.940 So thechurch.digital slash EDM for more information on that Equipping Digital Missionary course. 00:03:42.140 --> 00:03:47.040 And so, hey, let's go ahead and bring into the conversation Dr. John. 00:03:48.340 --> 00:03:49.100 Hey, everyone. 00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:49.540 How are you doing, sir? 00:03:49.900 --> 00:03:50.520 I'm good. 00:03:50.580 --> 00:03:51.060 How are you? 00:03:51.620 --> 00:03:52.440 Doing great. 00:03:52.520 --> 00:03:53.820 Thanks for jumping on the stream here. 00:03:53.860 --> 00:03:56.160 Looking forward to the conversation at hand. 00:03:56.240 --> 00:04:01.200 Now, if you're a regular here with the Church Digital, you know Dr. John. 00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:02.980 Dr. John's no stranger. 00:04:02.980 --> 00:04:07.440 We've got a lot of new people as a result of Lausanne and a lot more international audience. 00:04:07.700 --> 00:04:14.440 And so, you know, one thing, Dr. John, we'll talk about the book, I'm sure, Equipping – no, Sharing Jesus Online. 00:04:14.800 --> 00:04:18.720 But maybe, Dr. John, to kick us off, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself? 00:04:20.280 --> 00:04:20.640 Okay. 00:04:20.760 --> 00:04:28.680 Well, I grew up in a home with my dad as a pastor and my mom, a strong Christian woman. 00:04:28.680 --> 00:04:43.760 So I had a really good home – a Christian foundation at home and then end up as a career being in ministry myself as a chaplain in the Air Force. 00:04:44.380 --> 00:04:56.540 And so I served there for nine years, including a tour in Iraq and Afghanistan as a hospital chaplain, working with our wounded troops from our country and from other countries. 00:04:56.860 --> 00:05:10.020 And then after nine years there, I left the Air Force and worked at a church here in Northern California for about nine years as an executive pastor, Christian ed, small groups, outreach, all that kind of stuff. 00:05:10.880 --> 00:05:21.020 And then stepped down from that to do church consulting full-time, while at the same time looking at some of these trends of people leaving the church by the millions. 00:05:21.240 --> 00:05:33.440 And so when COVID happened in 2020 and a lot of churches were shifting to being online, and I had already stepped down from my position on staff at a church. 00:05:33.860 --> 00:05:35.320 And I moved to New City. 00:05:35.440 --> 00:05:40.180 So I wasn't really connected with a local congregation at the time, except a client. 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:42.140 I did have a church consulting client. 00:05:42.880 --> 00:05:47.440 And so my wife and I started Hearts Like His in 2021. 00:05:48.200 --> 00:05:57.120 And there was a Facebook group and mainly just focusing on teaching about the Father's heart, the Father heart of God, 00:05:58.140 --> 00:06:04.300 and then kind of like discipling people in that regard. 00:06:05.840 --> 00:06:07.880 Jeff, am I like breaking up on your end? 00:06:10.840 --> 00:06:12.880 Yeah, either you are or I am. 00:06:13.060 --> 00:06:13.940 Maybe that's me. 00:06:14.020 --> 00:06:15.900 Let me move something on my side. 00:06:16.460 --> 00:06:17.160 And let me test. 00:06:17.300 --> 00:06:19.420 I'll hold something off on your side, too. 00:06:19.940 --> 00:06:20.280 All right. 00:06:20.280 --> 00:06:21.100 Let's see if that helps. 00:06:21.180 --> 00:06:22.160 Keep going, sir, if you can. 00:06:22.320 --> 00:06:22.480 Okay. 00:06:22.660 --> 00:06:22.860 Okay. 00:06:23.300 --> 00:06:23.800 All right. 00:06:23.880 --> 00:06:33.320 So when we started that, kind of riding the wave of everyone being online, so we didn't have to try to legitimate an online ministry because everyone was trying to be online. 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:34.820 But we were online only. 00:06:35.100 --> 00:06:41.620 You know, started online through Facebook and through Zoom and really developed quite an interest. 00:06:41.620 --> 00:06:45.140 So we had about 500 people join our group. 00:06:46.320 --> 00:06:53.040 And so that's been kind of my intro into online church. 00:06:53.320 --> 00:06:56.860 And you're really inspired by people like Angela Craig. 00:06:58.040 --> 00:07:03.660 You know, back in the day, Angela was pioneering digital church and especially with Facebook. 00:07:04.300 --> 00:07:08.320 And so I got some inspiration from that and launched into it. 00:07:08.440 --> 00:07:23.540 And so then connected with you, Jeff, through I don't even know what year that was, but, yeah, we connected and, you know, really trying to get into the weeds of what does this really look like? 00:07:23.540 --> 00:07:35.540 Because, honestly, even though I was doing digital church and I didn't call it that and we had our conversations about that, I still had some traditional church mentality. 00:07:36.540 --> 00:07:40.860 And so I was learning that that doesn't always translate well into the digital space. 00:07:40.860 --> 00:08:01.220 So I was learning a whole lot about the context of digital ministry and the culture of digital ministry and really exposing what I thought as far as traditional church that was not working and discovering what was working better to develop digital communities and build relationships online and things like that. 00:08:01.320 --> 00:08:04.600 And so, yeah, hearts like his for a few years. 00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:09.140 And then we shifted more intentionally to purpose beyond the pews. 00:08:09.400 --> 00:08:12.460 I was trying to recapture and connect with those who left the church. 00:08:13.500 --> 00:08:20.460 So our tagline is equipping former church leaders to live out their faith in everyday lives. 00:08:20.820 --> 00:08:22.060 So, yeah, that's where we're at. 00:08:22.900 --> 00:08:31.720 Purpose beyond the pews is really what I wanted to focus on, and I'm glad you brought that up, because I'll be honest, like, I don't really know a lot about what you're doing. 00:08:31.960 --> 00:08:36.560 Like, we haven't had a conversation about that necessarily. 00:08:36.760 --> 00:08:40.100 Like, we always talk hearts like his, and there's always a part of that. 00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:43.680 But, you know, maybe it just even is here we're getting started. 00:08:44.660 --> 00:08:47.660 Talk to me a little bit about what you're doing with purpose beyond the pews. 00:08:48.420 --> 00:08:48.660 Yeah. 00:08:48.860 --> 00:09:03.060 So a big part of that is based on this, this, the premise from a couple of research ideas that talk about how many people have left the church. 00:09:03.060 --> 00:09:03.460 Right. 00:09:03.620 --> 00:09:20.240 So Josh Packer's book published in 2015, Church Refugees, talked about 65 million people have left the church, 30 million left Christianity altogether, 35 million kept their faith, but just left the traditional model of church for a variety of reasons. 00:09:20.400 --> 00:09:20.600 Right. 00:09:20.660 --> 00:09:25.060 And it's not just, oh, they got mad and then they left. 00:09:25.180 --> 00:09:28.360 No, there's other things that caused them to leave. 00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:35.760 And what got me was, he said, most churches we know, the 80-20 rule, right, 20% of the folks doing 80% of the work. 00:09:36.060 --> 00:09:39.340 And he said, these 35 million, a lot of them are coming from that 20%. 00:09:39.340 --> 00:09:43.000 So in my mind, I'm thinking, okay, these are people who were invested. 00:09:43.160 --> 00:09:44.420 These are people who are on staff. 00:09:44.540 --> 00:09:45.300 They're volunteers. 00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:48.680 They're tithers, givers, serving, all those kind of things. 00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:51.000 And now they're not even doing any of that at all. 00:09:51.280 --> 00:09:52.760 Now they're not engaged at all. 00:09:52.820 --> 00:09:55.000 They were active and now they're not at all. 00:09:55.280 --> 00:09:56.280 Well, what are they doing? 00:09:56.580 --> 00:09:57.340 What's happening? 00:09:57.840 --> 00:09:58.060 Right. 00:09:58.360 --> 00:10:14.340 So part of the goal with Purpose Beyond the Pews is to reach out to those people who are now not in a local context anymore, where those giftings and callings and passions that got put inside of them were being expressed in a local congregation. 00:10:15.280 --> 00:10:18.480 I wanted to capture them and say, hey, I get it. 00:10:18.660 --> 00:10:21.240 If a traditional model didn't work for you, I get it. 00:10:21.520 --> 00:10:22.620 But you're still called. 00:10:22.860 --> 00:10:23.540 You're still gifted. 00:10:23.780 --> 00:10:24.780 You're still on mission. 00:10:25.260 --> 00:10:26.540 And you still need community. 00:10:26.880 --> 00:10:28.440 So let's talk about that. 00:10:28.520 --> 00:10:32.520 What does it look like for former church leaders to live out their faith in everyday lives? 00:10:32.580 --> 00:10:43.700 And so a big part of what I'm doing there is, number one, unraveling some of the traditional idea of what it means to be in a local church and to serve and give and all those kind of things. 00:10:43.700 --> 00:10:53.520 It's because so many local churches in the name of self-preservation frame all of serving around serving in a ministry. 00:10:53.980 --> 00:10:57.980 So then if you're not in a local church ministry anymore, folks don't even know what to do. 00:10:58.220 --> 00:11:06.420 I'm coming alongside them and saying, OK, look, look, that's not your everything that God put inside of you was not made for inside the congregation. 00:11:07.300 --> 00:11:07.740 Right. 00:11:08.040 --> 00:11:09.800 It's actually made to change the world. 00:11:10.020 --> 00:11:12.500 So let's look at your job. 00:11:12.600 --> 00:11:16.260 Let's look at your other places where you, you know, live, work and play. 00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:20.540 And how how can you be on mission in those particular spaces? 00:11:20.940 --> 00:11:22.940 And so that's a big part of what we're doing. 00:11:23.000 --> 00:11:29.160 The purpose behind the pews is look and see how can you take what you've learned from being in a local context. 00:11:29.460 --> 00:11:29.560 Right. 00:11:29.580 --> 00:11:32.840 There's a lot of experiences there of being in ministry. 00:11:33.040 --> 00:11:35.600 How does that translate into the marketplace? 00:11:35.880 --> 00:11:43.900 So what's interesting, Jeff, is that, you know, a lot of pastors who were, you know, maybe their whole career was ministry, ministry, ministry, ministry. 00:11:44.020 --> 00:11:45.060 That's all they know is ministry. 00:11:45.940 --> 00:11:47.800 Then some of them are in that thirty five million. 00:11:47.800 --> 00:11:54.920 I mean, we've seen some reports and stats now pastors leaving saying, OK, I'm just not feeling this model anymore. 00:11:55.380 --> 00:11:59.660 But some sometimes they stay in that model because they don't know what what to do in the marketplace. 00:11:59.960 --> 00:12:03.940 They don't know how the skill sets that they develop in ministry translate into the marketplace. 00:12:04.100 --> 00:12:10.480 Well, same way with some people in in in the church ministries as volunteers or staff positions. 00:12:11.040 --> 00:12:13.060 So I'm helping them see what does that look like in the marketplace? 00:12:13.060 --> 00:12:19.340 And how does your actual job, how does that play out in your your role as a missionary? 00:12:20.300 --> 00:12:23.320 And so helping them see their. 00:12:24.560 --> 00:12:36.140 These other contexts as places for them to honor God, serve God, glorify God, be on mission is one of the things that we're doing in Purpose Beyond the Pews. 00:12:36.140 --> 00:12:41.260 And so it started off looking at debunking some common myths about people leaving the church. 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:43.620 Right. Yeah. That's a whole nother thing we talk about. 00:12:43.680 --> 00:12:53.740 So I want to debunk those myths about people who are leaving the church because some of them had some stuff in their head because of what they were told to try to keep them to stay. 00:12:54.460 --> 00:12:57.360 Right. To try to get them to stay. And they were told some things that were not true. 00:12:57.720 --> 00:13:01.140 And so that's that's kind of got them stuck when it comes to living out mission. 00:13:01.140 --> 00:13:04.560 So I had to debunk some myths. Then we had to talk about a pest. 00:13:05.160 --> 00:13:12.340 How do you fit in a pest? What's your a pest gifting and how does it look in your marketplace marketplace role? 00:13:12.580 --> 00:13:15.840 And what does giving look like if you're not connected to a local church? 00:13:16.520 --> 00:13:18.420 So anyway, that's a little bit. 00:13:18.560 --> 00:13:33.920 No, no. All this is great. I've got ukulele here in Twitch saying, if what God gifted you was meant for outside the congregation, then serving within the church walls is going to feel unfulfilling. 00:13:34.440 --> 00:13:40.600 And we do that. We see someone that is gifted. We try to plug them into the church in the building every time. 00:13:41.560 --> 00:13:44.500 And that can be unfulfilling. 00:13:45.640 --> 00:13:49.740 You know, it was interesting. This is going to be maybe a long story. I apologize. 00:13:49.980 --> 00:14:01.460 But it fits in here where I was I was I was working at a church and had a relationship with the just a friendship with the the lead pastor. 00:14:02.020 --> 00:14:09.560 And coming back from Christmas break one year, I just happened to get to the office early like I normally would. 00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:17.740 And I went walk past the lead pastor's office and the lead pastor literally it's January 2nd or before the office had opened. 00:14:17.980 --> 00:14:24.680 And he's just bawling in his office. He's just just crying like emotionally, like ugly crying. 00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:30.560 And and so I walked into his office and I'm like, hey, what's going on? 00:14:31.140 --> 00:14:46.920 And and basically over the Christmas break, he someone had sent him an email like one of the grandmothers of the church, like one of these, you know, been there 50 years, prayed over every baby type of person. 00:14:48.300 --> 00:14:55.480 You know, one of the grandmothers of the church is is was leaving and was leaving the church to go to another church. 00:14:55.920 --> 00:14:59.760 And he had sent the email like a week earlier and just hadn't she hadn't seen it. 00:15:00.540 --> 00:15:05.420 And the reason that she said she was leaving was that she was no longer being fed. 00:15:06.420 --> 00:15:13.280 And at the church and and he just was was emotionally devastated at this idea. 00:15:13.880 --> 00:15:19.000 And it was interesting. I started to talk to him and I was like, so what do you it's like when you preach? 00:15:19.060 --> 00:15:20.680 Basically, I went to like the Ingalls scale with him. 00:15:20.940 --> 00:15:24.380 It's like, hey, so when you preach, that's like what you're like more evangelical. 00:15:24.680 --> 00:15:29.100 So you're like pre-Christ to like, you know, maybe just accepting Christ a little after. 00:15:29.220 --> 00:15:32.860 Right. So like on a number scale, it'd be like negative one to two. 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:34.820 It's like, yeah, that's fine. It's like, OK. 00:15:34.860 --> 00:15:40.640 And so small groups is like two to what, three or four because your small groups are pretty basic. 00:15:40.640 --> 00:15:42.200 It's like, yeah, no, no, that's that's good. That's good. 00:15:42.780 --> 00:15:44.820 And I was like, so what's this woman? 00:15:45.220 --> 00:15:50.460 And and and he's like, oh, she's a she's like a seven or an eight or a nine. 00:15:50.580 --> 00:15:52.540 Like she's she's a she's incredible. 00:15:52.940 --> 00:15:58.500 And I was like, well, how was your church ever utilizing her at that level? 00:15:58.880 --> 00:16:04.080 Or how are you empowering her and helping her to do her ministry where she was doing that? 00:16:04.260 --> 00:16:12.860 At what point did you ever try to get her off of spiritual milk and get her on solid food or tell her that at this point she should be eating steak on her own? 00:16:12.940 --> 00:16:20.740 Yeah. Like you never where where did that happen in the context of this decades long relationship with this woman? 00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:30.200 And he really just realized, oh, my gosh, we've we've not been challenging people beyond to do this. 00:16:30.260 --> 00:16:36.740 And it was fascinating. The church actually went through a pivot as a result of this one situation. 00:16:36.740 --> 00:16:41.040 Yeah. He wrote a book on this, like all this activity kind of happened in that space. 00:16:41.040 --> 00:16:45.220 And it was so much fun to see, you know, a pivot of that. 00:16:45.220 --> 00:16:54.060 But I'm I'm guessing there's a lot of people that are walking away from the church in a similar situation where they're they're deconstructing what they're seeing. 00:16:54.140 --> 00:16:56.040 That is they have a desire to do more. 00:16:56.560 --> 00:17:06.900 But really, there's not a lot of options for people to do or at least organized options for people to do ministry outside of the church building space. 00:17:06.900 --> 00:17:09.380 Would that be accurate? Oh, 100 percent. 00:17:09.900 --> 00:17:14.800 So here's what's interesting. You said there's not a lot of organized options, right? 00:17:15.220 --> 00:17:24.020 And and church folks have been trained to not think, not so much think outside the box, but think outside the building. 00:17:24.020 --> 00:17:28.980 It's like they were they were literally neglect opportunities where God plants them. 00:17:28.980 --> 00:17:35.980 They're neglect those because it's not a church created ministry opportunity, right? 00:17:35.980 --> 00:17:43.700 The church creates the organized ministries and sanctioned, validated, approved ministries. 00:17:43.700 --> 00:17:50.780 And a lot of church folk don't think of engaging the one person or the space that they're in. 00:17:50.780 --> 00:17:53.140 They only think of church first. 00:17:53.140 --> 00:17:59.420 Let me join a church ministry that's created by the professionals, created by the few, for the many. 00:18:00.300 --> 00:18:02.760 And that's kind of the thing that to think church first. 00:18:02.760 --> 00:18:04.760 And. 00:18:04.760 --> 00:18:15.640 Like I think you said, the person's name was ukulele and in Twitch, you know, yeah, when people are created to take over the world, right, with mission and the gospel and love of Christ. 00:18:15.640 --> 00:18:21.320 And I mean, just boom, boom, boom, then they are going to feel unsatisfied sitting in the queues. 00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:25.840 Uh, and that's not even being discussed, talked about, validated. 00:18:25.840 --> 00:18:27.600 So, so let's think about this. 00:18:31.000 --> 00:18:36.940 Think about how frustrating it is and how common of a practice it is, but how frustrating it is for church staff. 00:18:37.800 --> 00:18:40.800 Many pastors to do volunteer recruitment. 00:18:41.800 --> 00:18:52.040 You've got hundreds, or in some cases, thousands of people sitting out every week, listening to the same volunteer needs. 00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:53.940 We need more folks in kids ministry. 00:18:54.360 --> 00:18:55.080 We need more group. 00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:55.600 We need more. 00:18:55.820 --> 00:19:05.040 Now, why is it that all those people are sitting out there listening to the, those volunteer needs all the time, all the time, and you always have a deficiency? 00:19:06.680 --> 00:19:10.440 You're always struggling to either get volunteers or keep volunteers. 00:19:11.100 --> 00:19:13.300 My, my hypothesis is. 00:19:15.140 --> 00:19:17.200 They know that doesn't match their purpose. 00:19:20.800 --> 00:19:29.780 And no matter how we try to spin it and have a church centric experience of Christianity, you got to love your church, love the house. 00:19:30.080 --> 00:19:34.800 You know, you call to serve the house, call to, no, no, no, not really. 00:19:35.480 --> 00:19:42.240 And so we think about, uh, some of the language we use to, to put the church first and all this kind of stuff, right? 00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:49.160 Um, you do a four week growth track for new members, four week growth track. 00:19:49.940 --> 00:19:53.700 And in those four weeks, you're typically going to learn about your church history. 00:19:54.020 --> 00:19:57.780 You're going to learn about, uh, the importance of you giving. 00:20:00.740 --> 00:20:02.060 The importance of you serving. 00:20:02.060 --> 00:20:06.100 And there's going to be some class that says, discover your purpose, right? 00:20:06.380 --> 00:20:06.560 Yeah. 00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:08.220 Really catchy. 00:20:09.140 --> 00:20:10.860 Purpose driven life book. 00:20:11.360 --> 00:20:12.880 People purpose, purpose, purpose, right? 00:20:13.660 --> 00:20:19.760 Even my, my group purpose beyond the pews are people looking for purpose, but, but in the discover your purpose. 00:20:19.760 --> 00:20:22.220 This class, I'm going to go through a gift assessment. 00:20:23.660 --> 00:20:31.360 And, um, and then as I go through that gift assessment, you're going to have a list of ministries in your church that you're going to try to match me with. 00:20:32.280 --> 00:20:34.340 Now that's not just me to discover my purpose. 00:20:34.460 --> 00:20:36.360 That's me discovering my volunteer role. 00:20:38.280 --> 00:20:38.780 All right. 00:20:38.940 --> 00:20:43.340 Because you, you put, you put church first, right? 00:20:43.600 --> 00:20:48.040 No, I haven't, I have yet to meet a church that said, let's discover your giftings. 00:20:48.040 --> 00:20:51.900 And we have, and then we have a set of a list of two lists. 00:20:51.900 --> 00:20:57.860 We have one for ministries inside the church and one for serving opportunities outside of our church in our local community. 00:20:57.960 --> 00:20:59.620 We're going to see which ones best fit you. 00:21:01.580 --> 00:21:06.460 No one ever talks about you need to serve in this area, in our city and in our community. 00:21:06.460 --> 00:21:09.740 No one ever says that it's always a church, the church, the church. 00:21:10.320 --> 00:21:19.000 And so I was on a podcast recently and, um, I was talking with the pastor and he was like, yeah, I think try and get more people to serve, more people to serve, more people to serve. 00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:24.060 Because I think Christians need to serve, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, talk about the theology of serving, you know, I'll serve. 00:21:24.420 --> 00:21:25.820 I said, let me ask you this question. 00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:42.960 Um, uh, I agree with you that every Christian needs to serve, but if, if you have a parent who is serving an hour a day, five hours a week at their kid's middle school, would you count that? 00:21:45.280 --> 00:21:47.500 Or would you still want them to serve in your kid's ministry? 00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:52.000 Like, would it, would it not matter because you still need violence? 00:21:52.080 --> 00:21:53.940 Like your whole thing about serving is volunteers. 00:21:54.640 --> 00:21:55.000 Right. 00:21:55.400 --> 00:22:06.080 As far as God's concerned, as far as the kingdom is concerned, that person serving at their kid's school in the, in the classroom and, and on the playground and, and with the PTA, like, like God sees that. 00:22:06.200 --> 00:22:12.060 You wouldn't see that, but you probably get that person to feel guilty and still, you got to serve, serve in the house. 00:22:12.620 --> 00:22:13.020 Right. 00:22:13.660 --> 00:22:18.060 Uh, serve in the house and, and we need you here and all this kind of stuff. 00:22:18.660 --> 00:22:19.480 Uh, let's see. 00:22:23.220 --> 00:22:23.580 Yeah. 00:22:23.580 --> 00:22:25.100 You're freezing a bit, but you're still there. 00:22:25.220 --> 00:22:26.060 We could still hear you. 00:22:26.100 --> 00:22:26.500 Keep going. 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:26.880 Okay. 00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:27.340 All right. 00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:33.260 And so what I want to want him to see is how he's putting the church or his ideas. 00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:35.920 It's not just, we want all believers to serve. 00:22:36.140 --> 00:22:38.520 It's no, you want believers to serve in the church first. 00:22:38.520 --> 00:22:43.860 And then if you have extra time, then you can serve out in the community that you can serve out in the world. 00:22:44.040 --> 00:22:49.700 So with purpose beyond the pews, I'm saying, look, it's easier to do when folks aren't connected to a local church. 00:22:49.860 --> 00:22:50.300 Right. 00:22:50.420 --> 00:22:53.840 And I would say our community online is church. 00:22:53.960 --> 00:23:02.400 So it's not like that's still missing, but I would say, Hey, like for me, for example, I, I, my kid, one of my kids has soccer practice. 00:23:02.600 --> 00:23:04.940 Another kid has dance practice, gymnastics. 00:23:05.300 --> 00:23:14.420 So every single week for an hour, I'm sitting next to a group of parents every single week for months. 00:23:17.300 --> 00:23:17.820 Right. 00:23:18.360 --> 00:23:21.180 Um, how, how, how do I connect with them? 00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:22.880 Right. 00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:26.000 So there are places I think we can have our folks on mission. 00:23:26.660 --> 00:23:29.900 Um, if we start, if we put mission first instead of church first. 00:23:30.360 --> 00:23:34.780 And so with this group that's already left the church, at least a traditional model of church. 00:23:35.140 --> 00:23:35.580 Right. 00:23:35.620 --> 00:23:37.480 When I say left church, I mean the traditional model. 00:23:37.660 --> 00:23:46.620 They still love Jesus though, still love connect with, with believers, but they don't like some of the bureaucracy in some of the things that they've experienced and other, other things like that. 00:23:46.660 --> 00:23:49.220 They just want to be on mission. 00:23:49.220 --> 00:24:06.200 So that's kind of where, uh, church beyond, I mean, purpose beyond the pews, uh, comes in at just acknowledging them, validating them and helping them see mission first, but peeling off the layers of church first, church first. 00:24:06.380 --> 00:24:12.600 One person said, well, since I'm not connected to local church, um, where do I, where do I give my offering? 00:24:13.540 --> 00:24:14.780 I'm thinking about that question. 00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:18.600 Since I'm not connected to local church, where do I give my offering? 00:24:20.280 --> 00:24:24.560 You don't know where you can give money because you're not in church. 00:24:24.840 --> 00:24:25.240 Right. 00:24:25.300 --> 00:24:26.820 Again, church focus. 00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:29.300 I said, I said, look, think about this. 00:24:29.720 --> 00:24:30.120 Right. 00:24:30.600 --> 00:24:36.200 Now my kids are homeschooled, but if my, if one of my kids was at this middle school or, or, or, or whatever. 00:24:37.040 --> 00:24:45.160 Um, I know through some previous adoptive school ministries with churches that a lot of teachers come out of pocket for kids supplies, right? 00:24:45.260 --> 00:24:46.520 A lot of teachers come out of pocket. 00:24:46.940 --> 00:24:50.740 So if my, if my kid is in this particular school and I'm thinking, where can I give money? 00:24:50.820 --> 00:24:53.140 I'm going to have a conversation with that, with my kid's teacher. 00:24:53.140 --> 00:24:55.080 And I say, listen, field trip. 00:24:55.240 --> 00:24:58.360 If you got any kids struggling to afford a field trip, you talk to me. 00:24:58.420 --> 00:24:59.120 I got them. 00:24:59.380 --> 00:25:02.300 I'm adopting your whole classroom all year. 00:25:02.420 --> 00:25:04.540 You do not come out of pocket for anything. 00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:07.560 No papers, no crayons, no apples on the corner of your desk. 00:25:07.640 --> 00:25:08.160 No, nothing. 00:25:08.500 --> 00:25:09.120 You have a need. 00:25:09.220 --> 00:25:09.940 You can talk to me. 00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:11.620 I've adopted this classroom. 00:25:11.620 --> 00:25:24.100 Now, when my kid goes to the next class next year, you're on your own, but, uh, because I'm going to do the same thing with that, with my kid's other class. 00:25:24.280 --> 00:25:24.840 Like I'm right. 00:25:25.040 --> 00:25:32.420 So my point is there are opportunities to give and to serve outside of the church. 00:25:32.420 --> 00:25:39.460 And we have to have these like conversations with Christians because all they think about is church, church, church, church, church. 00:25:39.580 --> 00:25:41.560 So then when they pop out, they don't know what to do. 00:25:42.020 --> 00:25:43.780 They don't know how, how do I see mission? 00:25:43.860 --> 00:25:44.700 How do I translate mission? 00:25:44.800 --> 00:25:45.940 How do I respond to the needs? 00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:55.020 They're so used to thinking the church is supposed to respond to that stuff instead of me owning some kind of responsibility and owning where I'm at, owning a, a, a, a, 00:25:55.020 --> 00:26:01.800 a realm or, um, of society that I'm in and saying, no, this is my mission field. 00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:02.760 I don't need a pastor. 00:26:03.160 --> 00:26:06.260 I don't need the board to approve my ministry idea. 00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:08.200 I am the ministry idea. 00:26:08.320 --> 00:26:13.640 I am sent by Jesus and, uh, and I'm going to handle business like that. 00:26:16.420 --> 00:26:17.760 So you were doing it. 00:26:17.860 --> 00:26:20.600 You were doing hearts like his, a digital church, Facebook church. 00:26:21.220 --> 00:26:24.080 Um, and then you, you launched this separately. 00:26:24.580 --> 00:26:26.540 Um, or in, in, in tandem. 00:26:26.540 --> 00:26:28.400 Cause it's almost like it's a one, two punch. 00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:29.300 It does feel that way. 00:26:29.860 --> 00:26:32.320 Um, where, where did this idea come from? 00:26:32.320 --> 00:26:37.660 Were there examples of this coming out of hearts like his, that kind of, that, that fueled the fire? 00:26:37.660 --> 00:26:39.560 Like where, what was the spark here? 00:26:40.060 --> 00:26:40.500 Yeah. 00:26:40.500 --> 00:26:43.580 Um, I had this initially, even with hearts like his. 00:26:43.780 --> 00:26:51.120 So when we started hearts like his, we started with, okay, let's do something online to reach the people who have left the church. 00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:54.080 Although, like I said, because of COVID, everybody was online. 00:26:54.080 --> 00:27:01.860 Um, and so the, a lot of people who were in hearts like his, who are still connected to the church, but they were just, everyone was at home, right? 00:27:01.860 --> 00:27:03.340 There's no Bible studies, no Awana. 00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:03.980 Everyone's at home. 00:27:04.060 --> 00:27:04.980 So they were plugged in. 00:27:05.420 --> 00:27:06.640 So then when, um. 00:27:06.900 --> 00:27:07.300 Awana. 00:27:07.620 --> 00:27:08.560 Oh my gosh. 00:27:08.680 --> 00:27:08.960 Yeah. 00:27:09.140 --> 00:27:11.520 Awana still around. 00:27:11.700 --> 00:27:12.620 There's a throwback. 00:27:13.060 --> 00:27:13.280 Wow. 00:27:15.840 --> 00:27:16.240 Yeah. 00:27:17.080 --> 00:27:30.960 So when church Bible studies were shut down, midweek services shut, all that kind of stuff, a lot more, a lot of people were still in hearts like his, who, um, were, like I said earlier, were trying to disciple hearts in the Father's love. 00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:31.300 Right. 00:27:31.300 --> 00:27:52.800 And so in theory, I also wanted to target those who left the church, but because everyone was at home, everyone was in hearts like his, but now as hearts, as churches opened back up now, um, the reason for our purpose beyond the pews is now there is a more intentional focus on those who've left the church. 00:27:52.980 --> 00:28:03.220 So I'm not so much talking about discipleship in, in the Father's love and the role of the Father in the gospel, like I was initially, because that really matches everybody, whether you left the church or not. 00:28:03.580 --> 00:28:08.740 Now the intentionality is the, the same group I had in my mind for all those years. 00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:20.180 Now it's more of an intentional focus to say, now this is more of an equipping and equipping a community than, then I would say the, the, the teaching and the discipleship community. 00:28:20.320 --> 00:28:22.500 It's more equipping and launching. 00:28:23.120 --> 00:28:24.420 Um, so that's been our focus. 00:28:24.540 --> 00:28:24.700 Yeah. 00:28:25.540 --> 00:28:26.580 You know, it's interesting. 00:28:26.580 --> 00:28:43.260 I got pulled into a conversation on LinkedIn, um, maybe yesterday, a couple of days ago, uh, where they were really talking about how, uh, there was, you know, institutions that were, were equipping for ministry within the institutions. 00:28:43.260 --> 00:28:48.300 Like, you know, it's all about, about serving within those institutions. 00:28:48.300 --> 00:28:50.240 Like you're talking about, Hey, we need kids. 00:28:50.320 --> 00:28:50.940 We need production. 00:28:50.940 --> 00:28:56.740 We need, uh, first impression volunteers to shake hands and, and, and all that. 00:28:56.740 --> 00:29:00.400 But, um, there was this, it was interesting on the graph. 00:29:00.620 --> 00:29:20.280 There was this void when it was talking about like in the world and in public where there was not, there was not a lot of, um, organizations or people that were, were serving, um, the broader public was kind of what it was brought was, was phrased as. 00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:22.940 And it was, uh, it was so, it was so funny. 00:29:23.020 --> 00:29:26.540 It was like a CEO of an, of a, of a corporation that did this post. 00:29:27.100 --> 00:29:34.060 And, um, one of the, somebody in the church digital kind of tagged me and was like, oh, well, Jeff Reed's working into that. 00:29:34.140 --> 00:29:35.760 And so now the CEO is like, what are you doing? 00:29:35.760 --> 00:29:39.680 And so like, I'm, I'm trying to like, okay, let me, let me jump into that conversation. 00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:42.620 And I think we've got a meeting scheduled towards that. 00:29:42.620 --> 00:29:57.560 But there's, um, there's something, uh, but even like, you know, Red Cross is like, hey, do this, but you know, they need money because they're trying to do their model and they're trying to do their model. 00:29:58.060 --> 00:30:10.880 Um, it was really interesting for me when we were in Korea, um, the way that when we would talk with missionaries about like how we want to train their people to do their thing. 00:30:11.360 --> 00:30:15.280 And it was all like training the trainer and being open-handed. 00:30:15.280 --> 00:30:20.740 Like, hey, we're just equipping you with this and you can adapt it and change it and do whatever you want. 00:30:20.740 --> 00:30:31.980 Like it was a very, in hindsight, looking at how emotional they got, it was a very self, and I forgive me, I'm not being egotistical, but it was a very selfless move. 00:30:32.500 --> 00:30:34.380 Like, hey, this material is free. 00:30:34.520 --> 00:30:35.840 You adapt it into your language. 00:30:35.960 --> 00:30:36.880 You contextualize it. 00:30:36.900 --> 00:30:41.040 What works for you, you know, take the course and then we're giving it to you. 00:30:41.040 --> 00:30:47.280 Um, I, I, I don't know that we see a lot of that, that, that train the trainer approach. 00:30:47.380 --> 00:30:54.660 It's everyone is trying to, to feed their, their model or sustain their thing versus volunteering. 00:30:54.660 --> 00:30:56.000 Is this like making sense? 00:30:56.100 --> 00:30:57.800 What, what is it about? 00:30:58.000 --> 00:30:59.780 Is it, is it self-preservation? 00:30:59.780 --> 00:31:06.740 Is it, um, what is it that causes us to think more internally instead of being more, more giving? 00:31:07.960 --> 00:31:12.900 It's, it's, it's the, the primary characteristic of an institutional model of church. 00:31:13.620 --> 00:31:21.440 Every, every institution, um, has self-preservation as a primary core value. 00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:25.560 How can we not just sustain, but grow and all that kind of stuff. 00:31:25.840 --> 00:31:32.080 So to do that, the church has trained Christians to put their church first, not the mission first. 00:31:32.660 --> 00:31:34.120 To put the church first. 00:31:34.760 --> 00:31:42.100 So, um, and there's kind of taught this kind of allegiance to the local congregation. 00:31:42.940 --> 00:31:54.920 Now we're, we're, we're, we're all many members, one body, the, the, the new Testament talks to us over and over about serving one another, encouraging one another, praying for another, all those kinds of things. 00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:04.800 Um, but we've been taught to put all of our resources, especially our time and money into the church first. 00:32:05.980 --> 00:32:12.600 And so part of what happens is that this is my personal belief. 00:32:12.600 --> 00:32:28.160 Now I haven't done any research or anything like that, no nationwide report, but what happens is when we turn the attention of people inward, as this is where number one, you get your source of everything. 00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:31.780 So come to the church to experience the presence of God. 00:32:31.980 --> 00:32:33.700 Think about that language, right? 00:32:33.880 --> 00:32:34.280 Come here. 00:32:34.420 --> 00:32:35.600 You're going to experience presence of God. 00:32:36.520 --> 00:32:37.920 Christians aren't really taught. 00:32:38.100 --> 00:32:40.260 You can experience the presence of God at home. 00:32:40.420 --> 00:32:41.040 You know why? 00:32:41.120 --> 00:32:44.080 Because of temptation, they might stay home, but we don't want to say that. 00:32:45.980 --> 00:32:46.420 Right. 00:32:47.060 --> 00:32:47.860 We're not really taught. 00:32:48.220 --> 00:32:49.420 Give to your neighborhood. 00:32:50.360 --> 00:32:51.920 Give at your job. 00:32:52.100 --> 00:32:52.280 Give. 00:32:52.380 --> 00:32:55.840 We're not taught that because we got to give here first, right? 00:32:56.020 --> 00:32:56.860 Support the house. 00:32:56.860 --> 00:33:03.620 We really are taught this internal focus because our leadership is internally focused. 00:33:03.820 --> 00:33:09.920 Our leadership is internally focused because our salaries are connected to what's happening here. 00:33:10.380 --> 00:33:19.240 Our mortgages and leases and all the financial obligations, like we really need people's time and attention and money here so that we can survive. 00:33:19.700 --> 00:33:24.680 And if there is time, money and resources after that, then you can give to missions. 00:33:25.620 --> 00:33:31.100 And so, I mean, that's just kind of baked into this particular model. 00:33:32.380 --> 00:33:47.180 A side effect of that is that we're not equipping people to go out and to do things because there's almost like this idea of, you know, I'll put it this way. 00:33:47.180 --> 00:33:59.700 In some cases, some churches see the mission of Christ as a threat to the body of Christ, to the existence of it. 00:33:59.700 --> 00:33:59.800 Wow. 00:34:00.040 --> 00:34:01.000 The health of it. 00:34:01.280 --> 00:34:04.040 If you start going out there, you're going to leave us. 00:34:06.200 --> 00:34:06.760 Right. 00:34:06.760 --> 00:34:08.400 If you start going out there, you're going to leave us. 00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:11.160 Let's call that subconscious. 00:34:12.260 --> 00:34:12.880 Subconsciously, maybe. 00:34:13.160 --> 00:34:13.420 Let's see. 00:34:13.460 --> 00:34:15.880 I don't know if you're consciously doing that, but subconsciously. 00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:16.120 Okay. 00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:16.540 Yeah. 00:34:16.940 --> 00:34:19.860 And so, here's one of the symptoms of that. 00:34:20.120 --> 00:34:27.800 Think about how many times, maybe some of you people watching the stream, they were in a church, they came up with a missional idea, and it got shut down. 00:34:28.260 --> 00:34:28.780 It got shut. 00:34:28.900 --> 00:34:29.280 No, no, no. 00:34:29.380 --> 00:34:30.380 Because it was too risky. 00:34:30.840 --> 00:34:34.840 We don't have the volunteers for that, the money for that, no time on the space on the calendar for that. 00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:41.760 We don't, like, these missional ideas get shut down because it can take resources away from the actual, from the church. 00:34:44.460 --> 00:35:01.320 Me, on the other hand, and others like me, I'm not the only one out there like this, but we're, one important shift is to go from teaching center to training center, where we're teaching the people to go out there, to spend time out there, to spend money out there, to invest out there in the mission. 00:35:01.540 --> 00:35:03.240 But guess what that does, Jeff? 00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:08.420 You're not in the building as much anymore, and that's a problem, right? 00:35:08.420 --> 00:35:18.460 So, literally, the mission of Jesus is a threat to the institutional model itself and its sustainability and its surviving. 00:35:19.120 --> 00:35:33.460 If I'm pastoring an institutional model church and you have $100, as a member, you have $100, and you have to decide if you're going to spend $100 at the local school or in the church, where do you think most pastors are going to tell you to put that $100? 00:35:34.380 --> 00:35:40.420 Maybe even tell you to split it, maybe tell you to do something, because it's, right? 00:35:40.420 --> 00:35:50.980 So, when I don't have all of those things that I need you to give to, and that's why I can tell people online, you don't have to. 00:35:51.040 --> 00:35:52.360 If you want to give, you can't. 00:35:52.740 --> 00:35:58.260 But I would prefer that you give where you are planted, where you're planted. 00:35:58.520 --> 00:36:03.420 I don't need you to sow a seed to me and then trust that I'm going to do the right thing with it. 00:36:03.780 --> 00:36:14.320 Not when you can sow that same seed in your community with people that you know, people that you see, people who will see that generosity as an evidence of Christ's love in your community. 00:36:14.560 --> 00:36:15.640 You don't have to do that. 00:36:15.640 --> 00:36:34.360 People online, all over the world, you giving me $100 is great, but you giving that school, you giving your kid's soccer team, you sponsoring that kid who can't afford the uniform and saying to that parent, hey, listen, don't worry about it. 00:36:34.360 --> 00:36:45.000 My $100, I'm going to buy your kid a soccer uniform or the gymnastics uniform or your kid can't go on the trip, I'm going to sponsor your kid. 00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:50.000 That, you give your, if you have, you give your $100 to that. 00:36:50.100 --> 00:36:53.220 Don't give it to me, you give it to that, right? 00:36:53.220 --> 00:37:03.400 So, because I, because with low overhead, with low, all this stuff, I don't have staff, team, business, leases, all that kind of stuff. 00:37:03.560 --> 00:37:12.600 I can push you towards that, but I'm telling you, it's a, it's a renewing of the mind for Christians to go, huh, I guess I can give to that. 00:37:12.700 --> 00:37:13.500 Yes, yes, you can. 00:37:15.400 --> 00:37:29.300 Yeah, so, but I think a big shift is equipping, equipping, equipping, and more people are looking for equipping, they're not looking for all these deep revelations and insights from sermons anymore, they want to know how to do some stuff. 00:37:29.780 --> 00:37:37.640 They want to know how to pray for people, how to lead people to Jesus, how to study the word on their own, how to lead a home church, how to, they want to know how to do stuff. 00:37:37.980 --> 00:37:44.040 You're, you're questioning me before us, looking at Purpose Beyond the Fews and some of my inspiration, have I been seeing some of that? 00:37:44.040 --> 00:37:47.260 I have, absolutely have, absolutely have. 00:37:47.720 --> 00:38:09.020 There's one guy who, his name is Mike, he's out, he works in, he has this thing called Dignity Day, right, where he ministers to the homeless from haircuts and manicures, pedicures, and health and social services booths out there to really help have this holistic view of serving the homeless and all this kind of stuff. 00:38:09.140 --> 00:38:13.280 And God told him, he says, when you do this, don't, don't launch it out of your church. 00:38:15.080 --> 00:38:20.360 Because you and I know, if something's sponsored by a church, then it puts up a wall for other churches to be involved and all kinds of stuff. 00:38:20.540 --> 00:38:20.700 So, yeah. 00:38:20.960 --> 00:38:22.920 There's no, not one church is supposed to own this. 00:38:23.380 --> 00:38:23.920 He said, guess what? 00:38:23.940 --> 00:38:27.040 He has like 15 churches involved in Dignity Day. 00:38:27.420 --> 00:38:29.740 He's got like 20 something other local organizations. 00:38:29.900 --> 00:38:32.140 They all come together because not one person owns it. 00:38:32.160 --> 00:38:32.800 But here's my thing. 00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:33.340 Here's my thing. 00:38:34.900 --> 00:38:36.960 This wasn't something approved by his church. 00:38:38.600 --> 00:38:39.800 His church supports it. 00:38:40.020 --> 00:38:41.120 They send volunteers out there. 00:38:41.460 --> 00:38:43.680 But it wasn't like he was like, hey, pastor, I have this idea. 00:38:43.940 --> 00:38:45.400 No, he just did it. 00:38:45.740 --> 00:38:47.300 That's the purpose beyond the pews. 00:38:47.480 --> 00:38:48.400 He just did it. 00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:49.800 And it's been eight years now. 00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:53.060 Over 200 people, homeless people, are served on this thing. 00:38:53.380 --> 00:38:56.520 It's just like this crazy outreach, purpose beyond the pews. 00:38:56.600 --> 00:38:57.680 It's not a church ministry. 00:38:58.180 --> 00:38:59.320 God put it in his heart. 00:38:59.900 --> 00:39:01.460 Now, I'm not saying I'm responding before. 00:39:01.520 --> 00:39:02.320 He was doing it way before. 00:39:03.220 --> 00:39:07.340 I'm not saying this is an example of, I like to see even more things like that happen. 00:39:07.780 --> 00:39:13.540 That's an example of purpose beyond the pews that gets local orgs together, local churches together. 00:39:14.040 --> 00:39:16.880 200 people are served as beyond. 00:39:17.300 --> 00:39:18.200 So I like to see that. 00:39:18.200 --> 00:39:23.400 Another lady who is part of, she is part of Hearts Like His and Purpose Beyond the Pew. 00:39:23.480 --> 00:39:26.080 She started a prison ministry. 00:39:26.200 --> 00:39:26.840 She's in Colorado. 00:39:27.280 --> 00:39:32.720 This prison ministry that has expanded to now women coming out of prison. 00:39:32.860 --> 00:39:44.120 She has homes for them now where she is now, I would say, the pastor of these homes to help women transition from prison into their family life again, learning new job skills and all that. 00:39:44.160 --> 00:39:45.320 She actually lives with them. 00:39:45.380 --> 00:39:46.260 She has these homes. 00:39:46.760 --> 00:39:49.080 Now the city has given them money and thousands of dollars. 00:39:49.080 --> 00:39:55.120 And it's going so well that she just baptized 25 ladies in prison just a couple of weeks ago. 00:39:55.980 --> 00:40:00.320 The city is like, we need you to have another house because this house is, you need more opportunities. 00:40:00.440 --> 00:40:04.420 So they're giving her whole new house, giving her money for a brand new van to drive these ladies around. 00:40:04.780 --> 00:40:13.620 She drove from Colorado Springs to Illinois to help this mom pick up her son, to bring her son back to Colorado and bring in this whole new life. 00:40:13.760 --> 00:40:16.600 Like, that's purpose beyond the pews. 00:40:16.780 --> 00:40:18.020 That's not a church ministry. 00:40:18.420 --> 00:40:22.000 Something that put in her heart from years ago that she's now launched. 00:40:22.160 --> 00:40:31.980 Like, that's the kind of, these are two examples of what I'm talking about of people beyond the pews living out their purpose and lives are being changed a lot. 00:40:32.180 --> 00:40:40.980 So, so, so, so, so much of what, what we do with the church digital is, is we give, we, we were talking about this offline. 00:40:40.980 --> 00:40:47.640 Like we, we give permission to, to digital missionaries, to digital church planters, to people who are thinking outside the box to do it. 00:40:48.080 --> 00:40:54.520 Uh, you know, sis pineapples writing in, in, in Twitch right now, where she's talking about how she did a, uh, a proposal. 00:40:54.520 --> 00:40:56.900 She drew up a proposal to help an old folks home. 00:40:57.020 --> 00:41:02.840 She gave it to the church missions team and, uh, basically ignored, uh, the missions team ignored her. 00:41:02.920 --> 00:41:04.880 So she just went and did it herself, you know? 00:41:04.880 --> 00:41:07.780 And so a lot of times, you know, we give, give permission. 00:41:07.900 --> 00:41:08.980 Hey, that's a great idea. 00:41:09.340 --> 00:41:10.200 Why don't you do it? 00:41:10.960 --> 00:41:14.320 What you're just saying is don't even, don't even ask for permission. 00:41:14.560 --> 00:41:15.840 Just do it. 00:41:16.380 --> 00:41:16.600 Yeah. 00:41:16.600 --> 00:41:17.580 This is what we're doing. 00:41:17.580 --> 00:41:21.500 And ask, ask if anybody wants to come along, like who, this is what I'm doing. 00:41:21.580 --> 00:41:22.120 Just join me. 00:41:22.240 --> 00:41:23.900 So it's, it's, it's almost a pivot. 00:41:23.900 --> 00:41:27.740 Like the church, you know, I'm saying this gently with respect. 00:41:27.740 --> 00:41:36.740 The church doesn't have permission to whether to tell you yes or no, just find a way to do it and then ask them and others to come along, uh, on the road. 00:41:37.560 --> 00:41:38.640 Exactly there. 00:41:38.820 --> 00:41:42.160 And so people who have left the church, right. 00:41:43.100 --> 00:41:49.680 Um, you know, kind of like this idea of, you know, you, you, when the Israelites and they left Egypt, they still had Egypt in them. 00:41:49.680 --> 00:41:51.780 You know, they still struggle with going to the promised land. 00:41:52.080 --> 00:41:55.600 Even when people have left the church, they still have this institutional mentality. 00:41:55.600 --> 00:41:57.760 Like they still can't do anything without the pastor's authority. 00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:01.140 So now if you don't have a pastor, you have this idea that God put in your heart. 00:42:01.200 --> 00:42:01.840 Like, what do you do? 00:42:01.920 --> 00:42:02.800 They're just sitting on it. 00:42:03.020 --> 00:42:06.120 I'm coming along and saying, why do you need the pastor to approve your ministry idea? 00:42:06.240 --> 00:42:07.000 You don't. 00:42:07.080 --> 00:42:08.480 You were taught that you don't. 00:42:08.580 --> 00:42:09.540 That's not the biblically. 00:42:09.620 --> 00:42:11.040 That's not the role of shepherds. 00:42:11.120 --> 00:42:18.780 The role of shepherds in the church is not to approve everybody's ministry idea, not to approve thumbs up or thumbs down. 00:42:18.860 --> 00:42:19.900 Everyone's life decision. 00:42:20.200 --> 00:42:28.160 That again, is part of the internal, um, mental institution mentality of this hierarchy in, uh, in, in the church. 00:42:28.260 --> 00:42:29.760 That's not the pastor's role. 00:42:29.960 --> 00:42:35.080 The pastor's role, not to have the say so on everybody's life and everyone's decision and everybody's ministry. 00:42:35.400 --> 00:42:40.380 And so yes, the, the cis pineapple, I'm like, go out, go out there and do it. 00:42:40.480 --> 00:42:41.300 And guess what? 00:42:41.360 --> 00:42:48.160 God will bring people alongside you who share in that same ministry, that, that same idea, that same, um, affinity, 00:42:48.160 --> 00:42:52.380 so to speak or interest and basically kind of have a missional community. 00:42:52.380 --> 00:42:55.100 Like that's what the Tampa underground would call it. 00:42:55.160 --> 00:42:57.200 And you can't sit in the miss the community, right? 00:42:57.240 --> 00:43:01.020 There's a mission and you develop a community around that shared interest in that mission. 00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:05.840 But my thing is, you don't, you don't need a pastor's, a pastor's approval. 00:43:06.080 --> 00:43:11.200 If you're in a local church, uh, and there's some, let me put it this way. 00:43:11.700 --> 00:43:19.240 Some Christians are mature enough to be able to stand on this position of, I love my church. 00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:20.460 I love my pastor. 00:43:20.760 --> 00:43:23.680 I don't need him or her to approve everything that I'm doing. 00:43:24.920 --> 00:43:25.360 Right. 00:43:25.600 --> 00:43:26.520 And that's biblical. 00:43:26.680 --> 00:43:27.260 That's true. 00:43:27.660 --> 00:43:30.020 But some are like, well, what if my pastor doesn't approve? 00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:32.840 What if my pastor then, okay, then just sit there. 00:43:33.740 --> 00:43:34.140 Right. 00:43:34.340 --> 00:43:37.100 So some have left and I'm saying, you got it. 00:43:37.220 --> 00:43:37.840 Let's launch. 00:43:38.020 --> 00:43:38.760 What's on your heart? 00:43:38.980 --> 00:43:39.860 What's on your mind? 00:43:40.040 --> 00:43:42.640 And coaching them through how to get started and that kind of thing. 00:43:43.060 --> 00:43:46.840 Others are still connected to the church, but they know they can still launch their own 00:43:46.840 --> 00:43:50.360 thing and sometimes people feel like they're so indoctrinated. 00:43:50.360 --> 00:43:57.460 Like the pastor has to approve every single thing says what scripture, there's no scripture 00:43:57.460 --> 00:43:57.920 for that. 00:43:58.120 --> 00:44:01.120 That's the institutional model and the hierarchy that's been set up. 00:44:01.120 --> 00:44:05.440 Now, now the church, that's why you have folks sitting out there by the hundreds and 00:44:05.440 --> 00:44:10.740 thousands, not living out their purpose beyond the pews, waiting only for a church created 00:44:10.740 --> 00:44:13.440 ministry that they can serve in. 00:44:13.820 --> 00:44:15.180 That's not how it's set up. 00:44:15.380 --> 00:44:20.100 God has put dreams in the hearts of every single believer and we have a lot of missional 00:44:20.100 --> 00:44:24.900 potential sitting there waiting on the church to come up either with an idea or to approve 00:44:24.900 --> 00:44:27.740 the ideas and it's just sitting there. 00:44:28.300 --> 00:44:32.620 So when a small group of people come up with ministry ideas, now they try to sell it to 00:44:32.620 --> 00:44:34.640 the church and try to recruit people for those ideas. 00:44:35.080 --> 00:44:37.020 That's not how the church's mission is supposed to operate. 00:44:37.100 --> 00:44:41.140 That's why they sit out there week after week listening to volunteer recruitment strategies 00:44:41.140 --> 00:44:44.380 and calls for volunteers and they're not doing anything. 00:44:44.680 --> 00:44:47.380 And if they do, it's for some big event two or three times a year. 00:44:47.540 --> 00:44:48.440 Like that's not our purpose. 00:44:49.620 --> 00:44:51.360 You know what I love about this conversation? 00:44:51.400 --> 00:44:54.240 It's two digital guys having a conversation. 00:44:54.600 --> 00:45:00.360 We've really not talked about anything in context of digital ministry, digital discipleship, 00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:01.020 digital mission. 00:45:01.420 --> 00:45:10.460 Like this has all been very practical, physical oriented, applying in either space guidance. 00:45:10.940 --> 00:45:16.280 Like this has been, to be honest, this has been probably one of the more disruptive podcast 00:45:16.280 --> 00:45:18.640 conversations I've had in months. 00:45:19.280 --> 00:45:22.120 And it's not, and it's not technologically based. 00:45:22.120 --> 00:45:28.040 Like we're not saying the church needs to address the technological basis or hybrid needs 00:45:28.040 --> 00:45:29.760 to be redefined or anything like that. 00:45:29.840 --> 00:45:31.600 Be comfortable with digital discipleship. 00:45:32.300 --> 00:45:39.820 Like it's, it's very grounded in the relations, the role of the pastor and then the relationship 00:45:39.820 --> 00:45:46.440 of the Holy Spirit within us to operate outside of the church, not just within the four walls. 00:45:46.820 --> 00:45:46.940 Yeah. 00:45:47.060 --> 00:45:49.500 So that's a disruptive idea. 00:45:50.060 --> 00:45:50.480 Yeah. 00:45:51.060 --> 00:46:00.240 How do we disrupt that idea while be respectful to the church and the four walls in the operation 00:46:00.240 --> 00:46:01.660 of the ministry that's in place? 00:46:02.260 --> 00:46:05.440 Because it's very easy to hear, and I know you're hard. 00:46:05.600 --> 00:46:10.900 I know you're not doing this, but it's very easy to hear a disruption and I'm guilty of that 00:46:10.900 --> 00:46:18.680 all the time, but how, what's that balance between respect and challenge that, that we need to be 00:46:18.680 --> 00:46:19.300 walking here? 00:46:19.720 --> 00:46:24.560 I think the balance is, it's definitely relational, right? 00:46:24.780 --> 00:46:29.480 So say you have a person who is sitting in their congregation, they love their pastor, 00:46:29.660 --> 00:46:33.440 they love their church, they love their people, but there's a dream that God put on the inside 00:46:33.440 --> 00:46:33.800 of them. 00:46:34.140 --> 00:46:37.740 And maybe it's like the, what's this pineapple? 00:46:37.740 --> 00:46:40.760 Like there's, this is a story all the time. 00:46:40.840 --> 00:46:45.240 As a matter of fact, Josh Packer wrote about this in his book, Church Refugees, that people 00:46:45.240 --> 00:46:47.680 have left because they feel like they could not stay. 00:46:47.820 --> 00:46:51.540 The whole idea of refugees, you leave a place you prefer to stay, you feel like you can't 00:46:51.540 --> 00:46:52.060 stay anymore. 00:46:52.460 --> 00:46:56.840 Some of the reasons he talked about are the bureaucracy, that people have a vision that 00:46:56.840 --> 00:47:00.740 God has for what they want to do or serve or the gift or what, you know, gifting is 00:47:00.740 --> 00:47:04.260 coming out, but those ideas are squashed. 00:47:04.540 --> 00:47:14.220 I would say to have some, some, some honest conversations with your pastor or ministry 00:47:14.220 --> 00:47:17.300 leader or whoever, and, and see where they are with this. 00:47:17.400 --> 00:47:21.740 They likely, I mean, think about this, Jeff, there's not one church that has the budget 00:47:21.740 --> 00:47:25.640 to support every church member's ministry idea, right? 00:47:25.640 --> 00:47:31.000 At some point, your idea has got to be not only launched outside the building, but maybe 00:47:31.000 --> 00:47:34.740 even funded outside the building, you can bless someone as a church. 00:47:34.900 --> 00:47:39.240 If you're a pastor, you can bless someone and say, we bless that idea in you. 00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:40.260 We support that idea. 00:47:40.640 --> 00:47:42.140 We don't have the funds to support it. 00:47:42.380 --> 00:47:47.020 But if you just need my affirmation, my validation, then you have it. 00:47:47.120 --> 00:47:48.280 Go and run with it. 00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:52.500 And then you're on your own, you know, to, to, to, to take off with it. 00:47:52.740 --> 00:47:58.920 Where, where the, the tension comes is what do you do if that idea is not validated and 00:47:58.920 --> 00:48:00.740 it's not blessed by your church leadership? 00:48:00.940 --> 00:48:01.900 Now, what do you do? 00:48:02.020 --> 00:48:03.600 Now you're, now you're sitting on it. 00:48:03.720 --> 00:48:04.920 And here's the deal. 00:48:05.580 --> 00:48:09.420 What God's going to hold you accountable for is what he told you to do. 00:48:09.560 --> 00:48:11.340 Not what the pastor approved or not. 00:48:12.700 --> 00:48:20.240 So in honor of the hierarchy that you're in to say, listen, pastor, if this is you, pastor, 00:48:20.380 --> 00:48:21.140 I love you. 00:48:21.680 --> 00:48:25.740 I, I, I, I've been a member of this church for five, 10 years, blah, blah, blah, right. 00:48:25.800 --> 00:48:26.760 I support this ministry. 00:48:26.900 --> 00:48:30.520 I'm still maybe even giving here or whatever, but I really feel like God has called me to 00:48:30.520 --> 00:48:31.860 do a, B and C. 00:48:32.680 --> 00:48:35.600 And, and this is, this is what I, this is what I plan on doing. 00:48:35.900 --> 00:48:42.640 So the challenge, the, the, the disruption piece is, um, what, where does a person lean 00:48:42.640 --> 00:48:45.140 if they don't have pastoral approval on something? 00:48:45.380 --> 00:48:49.660 Do they still go for it or do they not go for it? 00:48:49.960 --> 00:48:52.040 And that's really an individual decision. 00:48:52.440 --> 00:48:57.120 I don't think you have to, I think also part of the honor in relationship, you don't have 00:48:57.120 --> 00:48:59.040 to be a church split kind of person. 00:48:59.360 --> 00:49:02.200 You don't have to, you don't, things don't have to go that far. 00:49:02.200 --> 00:49:03.700 Hopefully they don't have to go that far. 00:49:04.600 --> 00:49:06.960 Um, but you got to stand on what God is. 00:49:07.040 --> 00:49:10.640 You feel like God's calls you to do, whether your church is supporting it or not. 00:49:11.200 --> 00:49:16.840 Um, but I also would say that sometimes church leadership can help you discern. 00:49:17.480 --> 00:49:19.440 Not every idea is the Lord's idea. 00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:25.560 Not every idea is a God idea and church leadership can help you balance that out and really discern 00:49:25.560 --> 00:49:26.240 what God's saying. 00:49:26.420 --> 00:49:31.760 But there's a difference there between that happening versus the idea of being, being shut 00:49:31.760 --> 00:49:32.120 down. 00:49:32.720 --> 00:49:33.380 Um, yeah. 00:49:34.760 --> 00:49:40.040 So, so yeah, like I've, I've given you a couple of examples. 00:49:40.680 --> 00:49:45.020 Uh, the person who's doing the, the, the prison ministry, she's still connected to a local 00:49:45.020 --> 00:49:48.220 church, but this ministry is not her church's ministry. 00:49:49.700 --> 00:49:50.100 Right? 00:49:50.380 --> 00:49:54.660 The, the idea I gave you with Mike and dignity day, he's still connected to his local church, 00:49:54.660 --> 00:49:58.140 but dignity day has, is not his church's ministry. 00:49:58.220 --> 00:49:59.900 His church is involved, but it's not his church's ministry. 00:50:00.280 --> 00:50:01.420 So these are a couple ideas. 00:50:01.420 --> 00:50:10.020 People are still connected to local church and participating, but that's not, um, but they're 00:50:10.020 --> 00:50:13.780 still living out whatever that purpose is for that God has for them. 00:50:13.840 --> 00:50:20.080 I don't think by, by doing, by doing ministry outside of the box, you're really outside of 00:50:20.080 --> 00:50:20.840 the four walls. 00:50:20.840 --> 00:50:26.860 You're really separating community of the church from the ministry activity. 00:50:27.120 --> 00:50:34.060 And so often like that's been, been united and that's really just, uh, indoctrination is 00:50:34.060 --> 00:50:37.700 a strong word, but that's just the way that ministry is done when it's within the four 00:50:37.700 --> 00:50:40.800 walls, like help the four walls exist, help the programming. 00:50:40.800 --> 00:50:41.860 It's all about the programming. 00:50:41.860 --> 00:50:48.340 It's all about the, the model, but by doing it outside that now you still need the community. 00:50:48.340 --> 00:50:52.720 You still need the foundation, whether that's physical or digital IRL or, or online, you 00:50:52.720 --> 00:50:54.160 know, we can, you're fine with that. 00:50:54.160 --> 00:50:59.140 I know, but you still need that community space for support and encouragement, but you're 00:50:59.140 --> 00:51:03.400 doing ministry separate from that community base. 00:51:04.380 --> 00:51:08.860 So when you're, when you're doing like, you know, you're talking about dignity today, Mike, 00:51:08.940 --> 00:51:11.660 um, who encourages him? 00:51:12.080 --> 00:51:16.540 Who is the, like, does he have a team of people he's walking with at this point? 00:51:16.960 --> 00:51:19.120 Uh, friends, has he developed coworkers? 00:51:19.240 --> 00:51:24.140 Like what's the evolution of somebody who starts an idea outside of the day? 00:51:24.160 --> 00:51:27.560 The church and then grows it and multiplies it. 00:51:28.500 --> 00:51:30.720 Here's a very important factor of that. 00:51:31.280 --> 00:51:38.940 Number one, if it's the Lord's idea, he's going to really answer those questions in relationships, 00:51:39.480 --> 00:51:41.420 resources, all those kinds of things. 00:51:41.920 --> 00:51:43.380 So let's take Mike's example. 00:51:43.600 --> 00:51:44.680 And he's been doing it for eight years. 00:51:44.680 --> 00:51:49.300 Now, a lot of the volunteers at dignity day are coming from his church. 00:51:49.920 --> 00:51:53.300 But like I said, it's not a church sponsored event. 00:51:54.040 --> 00:51:57.800 Um, it's announced at the church as well as other churches as well. 00:51:57.860 --> 00:51:59.980 Like I said, 12, 15 churches involved. 00:52:00.580 --> 00:52:06.960 Um, so he has the support and blessing of the church, but it didn't come from the church 00:52:06.960 --> 00:52:07.500 as I did. 00:52:07.620 --> 00:52:09.500 No pastor on staff came from that idea. 00:52:09.600 --> 00:52:11.340 And that church doesn't, doesn't own it. 00:52:11.780 --> 00:52:16.600 But the benefit of being connected to a church and having, in doing this is that when people 00:52:16.600 --> 00:52:22.000 get saved or need to be discipled, that there is a community that you can bring them into. 00:52:22.260 --> 00:52:28.200 That is part of that as you're catching fish, so to speak, it's part of that net, right? 00:52:28.220 --> 00:52:31.600 So I'm not advocating people leaving their church to do this kind of stuff. 00:52:31.760 --> 00:52:37.520 What I'm saying is you may have to do it without your churches back, you know, getting volunteers 00:52:37.520 --> 00:52:39.300 from your church or finances from your church. 00:52:39.580 --> 00:52:45.180 But if this is the Lord's idea, he's going to bring the, you can find some people, um, 00:52:45.960 --> 00:52:50.640 even from other churches who have the same passion for the ministry that can also be, be 00:52:50.640 --> 00:52:51.340 involved in that. 00:52:51.340 --> 00:52:56.120 So we're not talking about separating from community for the sake of mission, but we are 00:52:56.120 --> 00:53:03.460 talking about not letting a hierarchical structure suppress you stepping out in faith on a ministry 00:53:03.460 --> 00:53:06.900 idea that God has, that God has called you to, to do. 00:53:07.080 --> 00:53:15.420 So I use a digital platform to help encourage these individuals and support them and pray for 00:53:15.420 --> 00:53:15.700 them. 00:53:16.340 --> 00:53:19.600 Um, there are also digital examples of this. 00:53:19.780 --> 00:53:25.860 Another person in our purpose beyond the pews, she, she, you would have considered her somebody 00:53:25.860 --> 00:53:28.560 who's shy, doesn't speak a whole lot and things like that. 00:53:28.560 --> 00:53:33.480 But because of a ministry online, she got involved in a prayer ministry in our group. 00:53:33.740 --> 00:53:37.480 So her and other lady, matter of fact, the one that's doing the prison ministry in Colorado, 00:53:37.480 --> 00:53:44.140 we're going live prayer in our group every week, like Facebook live, people have put their 00:53:44.140 --> 00:53:45.060 prayer needs in there. 00:53:45.160 --> 00:53:46.120 So live prayer. 00:53:46.340 --> 00:53:49.280 Now it was interesting to me because again, she's the person that doesn't say a whole lot 00:53:49.280 --> 00:53:50.860 in public, right? 00:53:51.400 --> 00:53:56.200 Traditionally, she started to do more and more of that in the past few years because of what's 00:53:56.200 --> 00:54:00.640 been happening in the digital community, the equipping, the encouragement, shifting some 00:54:00.640 --> 00:54:01.180 paradigms. 00:54:01.180 --> 00:54:02.720 So guess what she does now? 00:54:03.120 --> 00:54:05.480 Every week, she posts on her own personal Facebook page. 00:54:05.880 --> 00:54:08.240 If you have any prayer needs, send me a DM. 00:54:08.860 --> 00:54:11.520 She has this online prayer ministry that, that she's doing. 00:54:12.160 --> 00:54:16.960 Another guy has, who was part of Hearts Like His and Purpose Beyond the Pews. 00:54:17.280 --> 00:54:20.240 He has his own digital evangelism ministry now. 00:54:20.880 --> 00:54:28.040 He's an older guy in his 60s and he has a heart for evangelism, but he doesn't like to 00:54:28.040 --> 00:54:28.940 speak out loud. 00:54:29.020 --> 00:54:30.140 He doesn't like to record videos. 00:54:30.140 --> 00:54:36.760 And so what he's done is he, he created a Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok account, which 00:54:36.760 --> 00:54:38.120 was a big deal for this guy. 00:54:38.200 --> 00:54:41.320 Like he's from a non-tech person, right? 00:54:41.960 --> 00:54:47.260 So now he has three, three channels and he watches teaching and stuff online. 00:54:47.780 --> 00:54:52.780 He actually records it, edits it, and he posts clips of other people preaching and teaching. 00:54:53.180 --> 00:54:56.200 And now he responds to people in the comments and DMs. 00:54:56.520 --> 00:54:59.060 He has a hundred followers on TikTok now. 00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:04.080 He's in 35 countries where his videos are now being seen all from his home. 00:55:04.440 --> 00:55:09.540 He has a legit online digital evangelism ministry from his home. 00:55:09.880 --> 00:55:11.380 Where'd he get that idea from? 00:55:11.700 --> 00:55:15.240 He didn't get it from talking to his pastor and saying, this is what I'm thinking. 00:55:15.240 --> 00:55:22.100 He got it from our community that validates online ministry, online evangelism, and he 00:55:22.100 --> 00:55:23.980 definitely has read that book right there. 00:55:26.200 --> 00:55:27.780 But that's what I'm saying. 00:55:27.860 --> 00:55:30.040 It's a purpose beyond the pews. 00:55:30.540 --> 00:55:35.640 And so there's prayer ministries, online, evangelism, online, those two examples I gave. 00:55:35.940 --> 00:55:42.400 And then also the Dignity Day, that's in person, and the prison ministry, that's in person. 00:55:42.800 --> 00:55:48.820 But the community that has been backing them and supporting them and praying for them, the digital community has been part of that. 00:55:49.300 --> 00:55:51.260 So, yeah. 00:55:51.900 --> 00:55:57.440 Yeah, I mean, I think that's how, like, my follow-up question was going to be, how does Sharing Jesus Online fit into all this? 00:55:57.560 --> 00:55:59.060 You know, the book, the idea. 00:55:59.540 --> 00:56:01.140 Dr. John and I co-wrote a book together. 00:56:01.260 --> 00:56:04.260 He was the brains, and I was the pretty face. 00:56:04.700 --> 00:56:06.560 That actually is my common go-to. 00:56:06.700 --> 00:56:09.480 I find smart people and just, like, back them. 00:56:10.400 --> 00:56:22.840 But, no, like, the idea of, you know, Sharing Jesus Online, utilizing digital, you know, there's a lot of digital missionaries watching this and people that do digital space, things in digital space. 00:56:23.560 --> 00:56:34.420 You know, it's not asking permission, not looking for alignment, doing your own thing, finding community where you can, you know, places like the Church Digital towards that. 00:56:36.320 --> 00:56:46.220 How do you, but you're still involved in a church that doesn't understand, like, what, how do you deal with that? 00:56:46.920 --> 00:56:48.520 Attention may not be the right word. 00:56:48.780 --> 00:56:51.220 You know, I've been in situations where it's awkward. 00:56:51.680 --> 00:57:01.820 Like, even in my own church, my own, I love my pastor, Pastor Carlos, but, you know, he has no idea what I do at a general rule. 00:57:01.900 --> 00:57:04.000 He just doesn't understand it. 00:57:04.060 --> 00:57:05.640 He's not grounded in that. 00:57:05.640 --> 00:57:12.640 And so, you know, at a personal level, like, you know, I actually, I sat down to try to explain to him the other day how Korea went. 00:57:12.860 --> 00:57:17.460 And the conversation went about 15 minutes until he had an emergency and had to take off. 00:57:17.500 --> 00:57:19.880 And it was like, yeah, I mean, it just, it was a loss. 00:57:19.980 --> 00:57:27.000 How do we, what are we supposed to, you know, reconcile, feel? 00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:38.900 How do we process these moments where we're trying to find approval, acceptance, understanding from people that may not be able to give that to us? 00:57:43.500 --> 00:57:54.780 Okay, so one of the things I would say is really get biblical on how much leverage church leadership should have over your decisions about this. 00:57:57.580 --> 00:58:12.120 And you're going to have to come to terms with the sense of disappointment you're going to have for not feeling supported for something that you know God has really called you to do or stirred up in you. 00:58:12.520 --> 00:58:15.120 So here's the reality, here's the reality. 00:58:15.120 --> 00:58:15.140 Here's the reality. 00:58:19.000 --> 00:58:30.160 Church leadership, in many contexts, is not going to share the passion for ministry that God has put inside of everyone in those congregations. 00:58:30.860 --> 00:58:35.400 Not only do they not have the budget to support it, they don't have the passion for it all. 00:58:35.640 --> 00:58:37.020 That's what APES is all about. 00:58:37.540 --> 00:58:45.040 If you're evangelistic and your pastor is a shepherd, your pastor is not really going to be focusing on going after like that, the same way that you would. 00:58:45.420 --> 00:58:48.060 If you're apostolic, you're like starting new things. 00:58:48.600 --> 00:58:56.680 The shepherd that sees new things as a threat to the nurture and care of those who are there is not going to, if you have an apostolic drive, 00:58:56.680 --> 00:59:04.200 you can be frustrated sitting under a shepherd and expecting a shepherd to approve that apostolic calling and ideas. 00:59:04.780 --> 00:59:11.200 To some degree, you're going to have to find a way, if you're wanting to stay connected to that church, 00:59:11.660 --> 00:59:22.900 to honor the leadership there, love them, support them, but find the freedom to not feel chained to their approval. 00:59:25.760 --> 00:59:31.860 Because when you stand before the king and he asks you, what did you do with the gift he's given to you? 00:59:32.060 --> 00:59:36.160 What you cannot say is, I would have done more, but my pastor didn't like it. 00:59:36.540 --> 00:59:36.640 Yeah. 00:59:37.300 --> 00:59:37.540 Yeah. 00:59:38.300 --> 00:59:39.820 I would have, you know, Jesus, you were there. 00:59:40.200 --> 00:59:41.240 My pastor didn't approve. 00:59:41.600 --> 00:59:43.540 That's why I didn't do it. 00:59:43.840 --> 00:59:45.340 Think about the pair of the talents, right? 00:59:45.520 --> 00:59:47.600 One has four, one has two. 00:59:48.240 --> 00:59:48.940 I mean, whatever. 00:59:49.340 --> 00:59:51.340 And the king comes back, what'd you do? 00:59:51.420 --> 00:59:53.440 Well, I took the two and made it four. 00:59:53.440 --> 00:59:55.840 Well, I buried it, right? 00:59:56.220 --> 01:00:01.960 You, another contemporary version of burying it is I didn't get my pastor's approval. 01:00:04.100 --> 01:00:06.020 What are you going to say to Jesus about that? 01:00:08.220 --> 01:00:10.500 He's going to say, I didn't tell your pastor to do it. 01:00:10.700 --> 01:00:11.620 I told you to do it. 01:00:11.980 --> 01:00:12.740 I'm your Lord. 01:00:13.040 --> 01:00:13.900 I'm your master. 01:00:14.220 --> 01:00:18.780 And your pastor is nowhere on my level when it comes to leading your life and guiding your life. 01:00:19.160 --> 01:00:20.200 Nowhere on my level. 01:00:20.720 --> 01:00:24.980 And that's the place where the church is tripping some people up. 01:00:26.560 --> 01:00:28.680 The pastor is not the center of Christianity. 01:00:29.240 --> 01:00:29.900 Jesus is. 01:00:30.560 --> 01:00:34.920 The pastor is not the one who has called you, sent you, filled you, and gifted you. 01:00:35.320 --> 01:00:36.020 Jesus is. 01:00:36.220 --> 01:00:42.200 So at some level, you're going to have to wrestle, to resolve within yourself, you're a follower of Jesus. 01:00:43.420 --> 01:00:45.100 Jesus has sent you on mission. 01:00:45.800 --> 01:00:50.280 And it doesn't have to shatter relationships with your pastors and churches and all. 01:00:50.320 --> 01:00:51.020 It doesn't have to do that. 01:00:51.500 --> 01:00:58.100 But ultimately, you're going to think about who you're responding to or who you're accountable to. 01:00:58.760 --> 01:01:04.980 And the reality is, Jeff, some relationships can be maintained in this country. 01:01:05.000 --> 01:01:07.280 They're healthy enough to be maintained in these contexts. 01:01:07.400 --> 01:01:10.200 Like I've given you two examples of healthy ones. 01:01:10.700 --> 01:01:13.440 But in some cases, you might have to leave. 01:01:14.040 --> 01:01:15.300 That's sad when it happens. 01:01:16.080 --> 01:01:17.140 Disappointing when it happens. 01:01:17.800 --> 01:01:18.940 Hurtful when it happens. 01:01:19.460 --> 01:01:22.620 But in some cases, the mission is going to require it. 01:01:22.980 --> 01:01:26.840 And there's no soft way to put that. 01:01:27.280 --> 01:01:30.060 Yeah, this has been a good conversation. 01:01:30.840 --> 01:01:31.340 Love it. 01:01:31.400 --> 01:01:34.120 This is not where I thought we were going to go, but I had so much fun doing it. 01:01:34.320 --> 01:01:35.900 This has been solid. 01:01:36.640 --> 01:01:38.400 We're supposed to talk digital missionaries. 01:01:38.480 --> 01:01:39.540 I don't know that we ever got digital. 01:01:39.740 --> 01:01:48.460 But the idea of ministry outside of the walls, I mean, that's something that all of us as missionaries need to understand. 01:01:48.780 --> 01:01:57.060 And some of the inherent challenges, at least here in the West, in working with the, you know, Dr. John, you would probably say that you're primarily de-churched. 01:01:57.280 --> 01:02:04.840 But with the audience here, at least you're working with de-churched and challenging them to be evangelic. 01:02:04.940 --> 01:02:05.700 So awesome. 01:02:06.020 --> 01:02:06.680 I love it. 01:02:06.920 --> 01:02:09.000 Hey, I have a question for you. 01:02:09.980 --> 01:02:12.280 Have you ever, who wrote Church Refugees? 01:02:13.060 --> 01:02:13.960 Josh Packard. 01:02:14.560 --> 01:02:16.300 Have you ever had a conversation with him? 01:02:16.620 --> 01:02:17.240 I have not. 01:02:18.120 --> 01:02:22.560 If I could set up a podcast with you and Josh Packard, would you have a conversation with him about this? 01:02:22.720 --> 01:02:24.620 You have no idea how awesome that would be. 01:02:24.920 --> 01:02:29.940 Listen, I almost quote Josh every single time somebody asks me about Hearts Like His. 01:02:30.500 --> 01:02:33.420 Everything I talk, I talk Josh's stats all the time. 01:02:33.600 --> 01:02:37.040 And so that would be, that would be absolute nuts for me. 01:02:37.120 --> 01:02:39.900 But yeah, I, yeah, I, yeah, I'd be cool. 01:02:39.980 --> 01:02:41.360 I can't make any promises. 01:02:41.600 --> 01:02:42.740 I've got a friend of a friend. 01:02:43.360 --> 01:02:46.980 And so I'll, I'll, I'll do some digging and see if I, if I can't get in there. 01:02:46.980 --> 01:02:50.200 But, and, and to be honest, like, I don't even want to be part of the conversation. 01:02:50.200 --> 01:02:51.540 I just want to be a fly on the wall. 01:02:51.800 --> 01:02:52.280 Just to see. 01:02:52.620 --> 01:02:53.200 Me too. 01:02:53.200 --> 01:02:54.540 I should follow him. 01:02:57.420 --> 01:02:57.820 Awesome. 01:02:58.020 --> 01:02:59.940 So, Hey, let's call that 25 goals. 01:02:59.940 --> 01:03:03.280 Uh, so we'll see, we'll see what's happening after the new year. 01:03:03.280 --> 01:03:06.480 And, you know, in my life, yours was church refugees. 01:03:06.480 --> 01:03:12.800 My, my book, um, back in that era was, um, George Barna's revolution. 01:03:13.360 --> 01:03:22.180 Uh, as a matter of fact, like that was, um, I actually had a business at one point that was called, uh, revolution retail. 01:03:22.300 --> 01:03:27.900 I had, um, uh, a store called a C two eight, uh, based on Colossians two eight. 01:03:28.020 --> 01:03:28.500 Yeah. 01:03:28.680 --> 01:03:29.800 That, uh, yeah, yeah. 01:03:29.800 --> 01:03:37.540 And so what we, we brought a hundred, hundred kids to Christ in a brick and mortar mall in Wellington green, uh, West Palm beach, Florida, essentially. 01:03:38.120 --> 01:03:45.840 And, uh, and so, but I just was, you know, as a, as a 20 something year old graduating from college, I had crazy ideas. 01:03:45.840 --> 01:03:53.600 And I've talked about this in the streams and whatever, but, um, you know, the church could not reconcile the stuff that I was talking about. 01:03:54.260 --> 01:04:04.100 And, you know, in, in, in that revolution, George Barna talks about the same thing you said, God's not going to hold your pastor accountable for what he's telling you to do. 01:04:04.100 --> 01:04:07.600 He's going to hold you accountable for what he's telling you to do. 01:04:07.600 --> 01:04:14.760 And, uh, and I read that and my whole, my whole ministry psyche changed as a result of that. 01:04:14.840 --> 01:04:19.840 And, um, and just shifted to this, to this new, uh, to this new model. 01:04:20.140 --> 01:04:25.220 Um, and it's been challenging and I mean, it's been, it's definitely been rewarding. 01:04:25.660 --> 01:04:37.200 Uh, it's, it's, I love, you know, I even love the fact now that I get to walk with the, you know, the church digital community and, and, and leaders and people that, you know, think outside of the box, like, like we do. 01:04:37.200 --> 01:04:40.940 And, and, uh, and so we can encourage each other and pray for each other along the way. 01:04:41.020 --> 01:04:49.880 I mean, I didn't have that 25 years ago and having and providing that community now and seeing all the, the, all the, that God's doing through. 01:04:50.140 --> 01:04:52.820 These relationships is so, so good. 01:04:52.880 --> 01:04:55.680 Even now as we're extending global, man, I just can't wait. 01:04:55.940 --> 01:04:57.040 So awesome. 01:04:57.440 --> 01:04:57.800 All right. 01:04:57.880 --> 01:04:59.300 Hey, we're going to land the plane. 01:04:59.360 --> 01:05:00.140 I will say this. 01:05:00.480 --> 01:05:08.680 We have had, this has been probably the most passionate chat I've seen in, uh, in Twitch in a while. 01:05:08.680 --> 01:05:13.860 Like, I mean, we don't really get good chat, but there's been a lot of excitement. 01:05:14.160 --> 01:05:17.360 So you can lately DWR, uh, sis pineapple. 01:05:17.900 --> 01:05:20.020 I know there's some others that are in here as well. 01:05:20.580 --> 01:05:27.940 Uh, mission awareness, uh, DWR, like I said, uh, flat cap, flat cap was surprisingly quiet. 01:05:28.080 --> 01:05:31.440 He may have had to have leave, but, uh, man, it was just so good. 01:05:31.520 --> 01:05:33.120 Thank you all for hanging out with us in chat. 01:05:33.640 --> 01:05:35.720 Uh, you know, you know me, we're always doing something. 01:05:35.780 --> 01:05:36.800 We're supposed to do this on Tuesday. 01:05:36.800 --> 01:05:37.900 I was feeling sick Tuesday. 01:05:37.900 --> 01:05:42.940 And so we bumped into Thursday and now Andy's got to edit it real quick and get it on podcast 01:05:42.940 --> 01:05:43.740 for Monday. 01:05:43.740 --> 01:05:48.600 So hopefully we can turn around, but Hey, uh, as we're wrapping up here, Dr. John, any other 01:05:48.600 --> 01:05:58.200 closing thoughts, uh, you know, I just want anybody tuning into this, this podcast live 01:05:58.200 --> 01:06:02.040 or replay you're, you're here because something is stirring in you. 01:06:02.040 --> 01:06:04.220 And I just want you to know you're, you're in the right place. 01:06:04.940 --> 01:06:09.580 Don't doubt, don't doubt that God has you on this track, that he has you on this journey 01:06:09.580 --> 01:06:12.140 and don't doubt that he's going to provide for you. 01:06:12.140 --> 01:06:15.980 You might not see it all right now, but he's going to provide for you and digital communities, 01:06:16.200 --> 01:06:25.800 digital culture, digital, uh, locations are legitimate missional, um, destinations, legitimate 01:06:25.800 --> 01:06:31.720 missional destinations, um, for you to, to take the gospel to, and the disciple people on 01:06:31.720 --> 01:06:35.880 and the spirit of God is just going to, he's going to bear fruit that remains. 01:06:35.880 --> 01:06:37.280 And that includes in digital space. 01:06:37.520 --> 01:06:38.680 So awesome. 01:06:39.140 --> 01:06:44.120 Well, thanks for jumping on this, this podcast with us, Dr. John appreciate it very much, 01:06:44.120 --> 01:06:47.000 but for Dr. John, this is Jeff with, uh, the church digital. 01:06:47.540 --> 01:06:49.260 Thanks for hanging out with us on this stream. 01:06:49.340 --> 01:06:50.740 And we'll talk to you next time on the show. 01:06:51.120 --> 01:06:51.700 Y'all have a good one.