WEBVTT 00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:02.420 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:03.380 --> 00:00:07.260 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church. 00:00:07.620 --> 00:00:11.080 But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. 00:00:11.700 --> 00:00:13.300 Is disciple making possible digitally? 00:00:13.760 --> 00:00:15.760 How should we approach the digital mission field? 00:00:16.060 --> 00:00:18.620 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? 00:00:19.060 --> 00:00:22.940 Oh, and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this? 00:00:23.660 --> 00:00:25.840 Whether you're a big or small church, 00:00:25.840 --> 00:00:30.680 The Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, 00:00:31.040 --> 00:00:32.520 digitally and physically. 00:00:33.040 --> 00:00:34.640 And now here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:00:35.120 --> 00:00:37.120 Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:37.740 --> 00:00:38.800 I am not Jeff Reed. 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:40.660 There was some music happening in the background. 00:00:40.880 --> 00:00:42.860 I am joined by two handsome, handsome fellows. 00:00:43.040 --> 00:00:45.800 First, we want to say hello to everybody on Twitch and on YouTube. 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:47.380 Yes, Jason, you are handsome. 00:00:47.600 --> 00:00:50.100 Yes, Dr. Warren Bird, you are also handsome. 00:00:50.300 --> 00:00:53.960 We have Phantom Methos and we have Dear Fedge, Jeff Reed, in the chat. 00:00:53.960 --> 00:00:55.400 Jeff is supposed to be hosting this. 00:00:55.500 --> 00:00:56.180 We're praying for him. 00:00:56.560 --> 00:00:59.120 He's had a little bit of like a health thing happening. 00:00:59.320 --> 00:01:00.920 He's able to watch us on the Internet. 00:01:01.040 --> 00:01:02.180 Everybody wave to Jeff. 00:01:02.320 --> 00:01:03.480 Thanks for joining us, Jeff. 00:01:03.580 --> 00:01:05.160 Thanks for allowing us to be here. 00:01:05.620 --> 00:01:09.240 But enough about me and everything that's happening on the Church Digital Podcast. 00:01:09.480 --> 00:01:11.880 We've got a live stream happening on Twitch and YouTube. 00:01:12.540 --> 00:01:16.380 And I am going to back out of the way and kind of introduce our two amazing guests. 00:01:16.460 --> 00:01:18.920 First off to that side over there. 00:01:19.400 --> 00:01:23.700 By the way, I am a professional streamer and I do know which way to point on camera. 00:01:23.960 --> 00:01:30.660 But to my right on the screen over there is Mr. Captain Jason Morris over there of Church 00:01:30.660 --> 00:01:34.040 Digital fame, of Westside, of everything, of Resi fame. 00:01:34.200 --> 00:01:40.480 I feel like you are the man that kind of needs no introduction on the Internet. 00:01:40.640 --> 00:01:43.160 Do you want to give us like a list of your plaudits or do you want me to just keep going 00:01:43.160 --> 00:01:44.700 to Warren, which is going to make you feel like Warren? 00:01:44.700 --> 00:01:46.360 No, no, it's not worth it. 00:01:46.760 --> 00:01:53.420 I just feel like one of the things I do say, though, is I feel like my, you know, 00:01:53.480 --> 00:01:54.600 Warren has kind of figured out. 00:01:54.700 --> 00:01:55.920 He'll be able to introduce himself. 00:01:56.660 --> 00:02:02.640 Warren has kind of figured out his life purpose and what he brings to the table for the kingdom. 00:02:03.180 --> 00:02:05.620 And I wanted to be kind of like him in that way. 00:02:05.620 --> 00:02:13.960 So I feel like my life's purpose, you know, what I bring to the kingdom is I leverage the 00:02:13.960 --> 00:02:21.420 collective digital might of Jesus Church towards achieving global gospel saturation. 00:02:22.020 --> 00:02:27.260 That's kind of what I do, you know, and it's had a lot of different expressions over the 00:02:27.260 --> 00:02:30.360 years, but that's just the way that Jesus made me. 00:02:30.520 --> 00:02:34.200 So I don't make an apology for that, but I want to hear from Warren. 00:02:34.600 --> 00:02:34.800 Yeah. 00:02:34.940 --> 00:02:39.880 So let's this the guy who is kind of below us needs no introduction. 00:02:39.880 --> 00:02:46.280 But if we do need an introduction, Dr. Warren Bird, you are also of like a million different 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:46.800 things. 00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:48.480 The VP of research over at ECFA. 00:02:49.360 --> 00:02:52.480 My goodness, I feel I met Warren actually. 00:02:52.660 --> 00:02:53.860 Well, I experienced. 00:02:53.980 --> 00:02:54.640 Let's put it that way. 00:02:54.640 --> 00:02:59.700 I experienced Warren at Exponential 2024 and it was in a tent. 00:02:59.860 --> 00:03:01.540 I don't know if you remember this, Warren, it was in a tent. 00:03:01.640 --> 00:03:03.200 It was about a thousand degrees outside. 00:03:03.620 --> 00:03:06.720 We were doing like a panel or something. 00:03:06.820 --> 00:03:08.180 There was like three or four other guys there. 00:03:08.240 --> 00:03:12.960 And if you put on the fan, you drown everybody out or blow their hair. 00:03:13.220 --> 00:03:17.520 We were playing this like game of like, do we keep the air conditioning on or do we be 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:17.960 able to hear? 00:03:18.120 --> 00:03:19.840 And so it was like, and that was me. 00:03:19.920 --> 00:03:22.720 Like I had to run out and like kick the kick the breaker on and come back in. 00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:27.620 Warren, he was wearing, I think the same sweater vest that he's wearing now, or at least 00:03:27.620 --> 00:03:28.720 a version of that. 00:03:28.720 --> 00:03:30.560 He was wearing pants, like khaki pants. 00:03:31.060 --> 00:03:34.680 And he had more energy than anybody in that tent, was immune to the heat. 00:03:34.900 --> 00:03:39.180 I don't, he must've been a missionary in sub-Saharan Africa somewhere because he was used to it. 00:03:39.580 --> 00:03:43.500 Dr. Warren Byrd, thank you so much for joining us on the Church Digital Podcast today. 00:03:43.620 --> 00:03:46.080 How has, how has life been for you so far? 00:03:47.060 --> 00:03:49.720 Andy, I've never had an introduction like that. 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:52.760 And I will, I will long remember that. 00:03:53.240 --> 00:03:56.240 And Jason, I love your mission statement. 00:03:56.360 --> 00:04:00.660 This is like global impact for the gospel. 00:04:01.620 --> 00:04:03.500 And here's my run in it. 00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:05.700 And that's very exciting. 00:04:06.500 --> 00:04:07.100 Absolutely. 00:04:07.460 --> 00:04:14.360 And I feel like along the way, I don't know if you remember, this is probably back in 2010, 00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:16.100 2011, something like that. 00:04:16.140 --> 00:04:17.000 That's when we met. 00:04:17.580 --> 00:04:20.880 It was at a lead net gathering or something like that. 00:04:21.080 --> 00:04:27.460 And we sat down and talked about, you know, leveraging Google ads and things like that back 00:04:27.460 --> 00:04:27.960 in the day. 00:04:28.840 --> 00:04:30.400 And what I loved about- 00:04:30.400 --> 00:04:32.380 Back in the day when that was a new topic. 00:04:32.680 --> 00:04:33.980 That was a breakthrough idea. 00:04:34.200 --> 00:04:35.940 Yeah, exactly, exactly. 00:04:36.200 --> 00:04:45.300 And so what I love as I've been following you is the way in which you are contributing with 00:04:45.300 --> 00:04:51.580 data for the kingdom and your mind for that sort of thing. 00:04:51.740 --> 00:04:55.300 And what have you written like, or co-written 30 books or something? 00:04:55.640 --> 00:04:55.800 Whoa. 00:04:55.940 --> 00:04:56.400 I don't know. 00:04:57.260 --> 00:04:58.900 35, but who's counting? 00:04:59.120 --> 00:04:59.340 Okay. 00:04:59.560 --> 00:05:00.080 Right. 00:05:00.540 --> 00:05:01.020 Exactly. 00:05:01.500 --> 00:05:01.980 Exactly. 00:05:02.520 --> 00:05:02.760 Right. 00:05:02.760 --> 00:05:08.220 And you've got, what I've heard is you've got a new book that I didn't know about that's 00:05:08.220 --> 00:05:12.780 coming out that you said is just came out or is coming out or something like that. 00:05:12.840 --> 00:05:14.920 It has some digital components to it. 00:05:15.580 --> 00:05:24.340 Becoming a Future Ready Church with three authors, Daniel Yang, a Gen Xer, Adele Banks, 00:05:25.140 --> 00:05:34.800 a Gen Wire or Millennial and myself, a Boomer, talking about eight forks in the road that every church has got to deal with. 00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:47.480 We're more comfortable with the year 1950 when the church was at a heyday than we are at the year 2050, but we're a lot closer to 2050. 00:05:48.280 --> 00:05:50.940 And like Wayne Gretzky with the hockey puck. 00:05:50.940 --> 00:05:53.040 Well, Wayne, how'd you win so many awards? 00:05:53.380 --> 00:05:55.420 Well, I don't go to where the hockey puck is. 00:05:55.480 --> 00:05:57.440 I go to where it's going to be. 00:05:58.500 --> 00:06:07.100 And if we as a church can discern where is culture moving and how do we speak the gospel, unchanging gospel, 00:06:07.360 --> 00:06:14.880 in a way that the rising generation and the culture they're inviting will be able to hear, 00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:17.860 then the gospel impact will be multiplied. 00:06:18.420 --> 00:06:23.560 And frankly, if we stay with 1950, that year might not be coming back too soon. 00:06:23.800 --> 00:06:24.160 It's not. 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:25.160 Spoiler. 00:06:25.720 --> 00:06:27.640 Yeah, totally agree with you there. 00:06:28.200 --> 00:06:28.680 Spoiler. 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:34.720 You know, we were supposed to talk about this article, but I don't care about that anymore for right now. 00:06:36.180 --> 00:06:38.300 You said that you mentioned eight things. 00:06:38.420 --> 00:06:40.540 I haven't read this book yet because I didn't know. 00:06:41.520 --> 00:06:43.120 I was waiting for it to come out. 00:06:43.220 --> 00:06:51.940 But I did hear the talk that you gave with Daniel on one of the sessions that in my mind was just spot on. 00:06:51.940 --> 00:06:58.520 And so I want to hear what insights you have on those eight things. 00:06:59.160 --> 00:07:04.240 Before we even get to the article and all these other things that I had planned, I want to hear about this. 00:07:05.300 --> 00:07:14.520 Well, let me just set it up with 1 Samuel 17 with David about to head out to Goliath and he comes to King Saul. 00:07:15.020 --> 00:07:18.260 And King Saul says, look, I got the best armor in the country. 00:07:18.360 --> 00:07:18.900 I'm the king. 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:21.400 I got the best, you know, everything in the country. 00:07:21.760 --> 00:07:28.840 I'm giving it to you, buddy, because what's won my battles are going to win your battles. 00:07:29.300 --> 00:07:33.760 And David says, these aren't tested by me. 00:07:34.060 --> 00:07:35.240 I don't know these. 00:07:35.340 --> 00:07:36.720 I'm not comfortable in them. 00:07:37.100 --> 00:07:40.140 I'm really comfortable with a whole different methodology. 00:07:41.660 --> 00:07:46.080 Same giant, same goal that we want to, you know, take care of Goliath. 00:07:46.460 --> 00:07:48.180 But I want to do it a whole different way. 00:07:48.420 --> 00:07:57.180 And Saul blessed him and said, okay, you know, you don't have to wear my armor. 00:07:57.280 --> 00:07:57.960 You don't have to do this. 00:07:58.100 --> 00:08:02.140 I'm going to let you take this sling and a few papples. 00:08:02.800 --> 00:08:05.020 And all of Israel is riding on it. 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:06.100 May God be with you, buddy. 00:08:06.980 --> 00:08:19.820 And that's really what the next generation can say to the current generation to say, thank you so much for all these wonderful institutions and patterns and stuff that we've inherited. 00:08:20.180 --> 00:08:21.280 I get the gospel. 00:08:21.400 --> 00:08:22.500 I'm not going to leave the gospel. 00:08:22.620 --> 00:08:23.320 I get scripture. 00:08:23.420 --> 00:08:24.540 I'm not going to change that. 00:08:25.300 --> 00:08:31.000 But how we communicate it, the vehicles we use, has to change. 00:08:31.560 --> 00:08:46.100 And the whole book is about the conversations around eight of those changes that need to happen intergenerationally, lest the next generation say, I don't know what to do with all this stuff. 00:08:46.640 --> 00:08:47.600 We don't need it. 00:08:49.420 --> 00:08:52.420 It's not going to help us reach our lost friends. 00:08:53.580 --> 00:08:53.740 Right. 00:08:54.080 --> 00:08:57.200 Warren, on that, real quick, and I know we have, like, other things to get to. 00:08:57.380 --> 00:08:58.980 Yeah, let's get to the other things. 00:08:59.260 --> 00:08:59.720 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:08:59.760 --> 00:09:01.580 We're going to keep saying that and just pushing it out. 00:09:03.100 --> 00:09:08.240 Do you feel that there's almost – so in tech – I'm highly online. 00:09:08.980 --> 00:09:12.740 I'm technically a millennial, but I'm also the creative pastor for a completely digital church. 00:09:14.040 --> 00:09:15.940 I find that – I work a lot. 00:09:15.940 --> 00:09:18.740 I've got kind of an engineering and IT background as well. 00:09:19.440 --> 00:09:26.500 And what IT people and engineers talk about is tech debt where you continually program things. 00:09:26.500 --> 00:09:28.860 And you don't ever really kind of clean up the cruft. 00:09:28.940 --> 00:09:36.800 You just code over it until you have so much of this kind of coded over tech that you have to go back and clean it up. 00:09:36.860 --> 00:09:37.740 And that's called tech debt. 00:09:37.740 --> 00:09:44.660 Are you finding there's almost kind of like a tradition debt in church right now, almost like a liturgy debt? 00:09:44.920 --> 00:09:46.560 That's probably like the wrong term for it. 00:09:46.560 --> 00:09:48.000 Are you finding something of that? 00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:57.960 Or are you finding it's more that the next generations are so quick to just transition into like fluid spaces that we just don't know how to talk to them right now? 00:10:00.040 --> 00:10:09.260 I love your term tech debt, and I think your latter comparison is better, but it's not like it's a yesterday-today shift. 00:10:09.560 --> 00:10:11.340 This is a shift over time. 00:10:11.400 --> 00:10:25.760 For example, if you ask people in church of all ages, how many of you read your Bible this week and did so online, meaning on a computer, on an app, on your smartphone? 00:10:26.980 --> 00:10:29.000 Almost all the hands will go up. 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:40.300 And yet that same audience, if you say to them, is digital discipleship the future, they're going to go like, I don't know. 00:10:40.380 --> 00:10:45.680 There's something about being in this room where we really, I'm not sure. 00:10:46.360 --> 00:10:55.980 So one of the pastors I interviewed for what we're eventually going to talk about, Kyle Ranson at Cincinnati Crossroads, 00:10:55.980 --> 00:11:02.480 said, look, isn't that what the Apostle Paul did with the New Testament? 00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:05.540 It's like, hey, I really want to be with you in person. 00:11:05.900 --> 00:11:10.200 I get being in person is really important and helpful, but I can't. 00:11:10.940 --> 00:11:13.060 So I'm going to write you a letter. 00:11:13.400 --> 00:11:18.240 I'm going to explain what to do for discipleship, and I want you to follow this. 00:11:18.880 --> 00:11:21.220 And then when I get there, we'll talk about it some more. 00:11:21.220 --> 00:11:33.380 So even there, in his generation, it's a mixture of online, well, in his case, it was, you know, the printed letter that's read for people, and in person. 00:11:33.920 --> 00:11:36.320 And the two were integrating. 00:11:37.140 --> 00:11:45.140 And so today, have we figured out how to value each piece of that integration? 00:11:45.640 --> 00:11:48.080 Well, let's make the turn then. 00:11:48.260 --> 00:11:48.880 Hold on, Jason. 00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:52.160 I just want to make sure we make this turn before we keep saying, oh, let's push this out. 00:11:52.220 --> 00:11:52.860 Let's push this out. 00:11:52.900 --> 00:11:53.560 Let's push this out. 00:11:53.780 --> 00:11:53.960 Okay. 00:11:54.840 --> 00:12:01.920 So the kind of this article that has been, you know, being talked about here, I'm actually going to post it in all of our chats. 00:12:02.040 --> 00:12:07.300 If you are listening to this via podcast or watching it on VOD or on YouTube later, you'll be able to find this in the show notes. 00:12:08.060 --> 00:12:15.660 Warren, you authored essentially a manifesto, I'm going to call it, about the things that are kind of changing in the church. 00:12:15.660 --> 00:12:21.580 And the title of it is Digital Discipleship, colon, can churches grow people who may never attend in person? 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:28.240 Now, like you were just saying there, Warren, that feels almost like a shot across the bow, but I don't think it actually is. 00:12:28.460 --> 00:12:32.300 Where did the genesis for this article kind of come from? 00:12:33.020 --> 00:12:37.760 Well, it came in part from talking with people like Jason and a whole bunch of others. 00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:43.300 And we went through this pandemic and all these churches went digital. 00:12:44.400 --> 00:12:58.260 And now, as they're able to gather in person and build momentum there, so many of them are questioning, well, you know, do we really, what is the value added by the digital component? 00:12:58.660 --> 00:13:04.360 And there have been a couple of high visibility examples of churches that said, no, we're killing our streaming totally. 00:13:04.360 --> 00:13:07.220 You know, if you want to connect with us, you've got to be here in person. 00:13:08.220 --> 00:13:20.980 But there's a small group of churches that went the opposite direction that said, thank you, Jesus, for opening up the world as our parish. 00:13:21.520 --> 00:13:27.160 And how can we disciple anyone, anywhere? 00:13:27.580 --> 00:13:30.820 So, in fact, that's to come back to Crossroads. 00:13:31.140 --> 00:13:44.040 They call their online campus Crossroads Anywhere, and actually, in-house, they call it Crossroads in your underwear because, you know, you don't necessarily need to be dressed. 00:13:44.200 --> 00:13:51.780 Well, Jason, you're standing up where we could see you, but, you know, the rest of us, we could be in our pajama bottoms, for all you know. 00:13:52.280 --> 00:13:58.200 And there was one meme early in the Internet where that's just what happened with one of the meetings. 00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:10.440 But at any rate, I thought, okay, let me find these pioneers and ask them where they're struggling and where they're finding breakthroughs. 00:14:10.640 --> 00:14:22.620 Because what so often happens, I know from kind of the innovation curve and all, and this happens in all of life, too, that you have people who try this and you try that and try that. 00:14:22.780 --> 00:14:33.040 And eventually, somebody finds a path that works, and then a larger group starts saying, well, duh, of course, haven't we always done it that way? 00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:34.440 And no, we haven't. 00:14:34.920 --> 00:14:39.100 But the pioneers are the ones who are learning. 00:14:39.300 --> 00:14:46.120 So I started with, like, Outreach 100's list of fastest-growing churches. 00:14:46.500 --> 00:14:48.700 I thought, well, if anyone has cracked the nut. 00:14:48.800 --> 00:14:50.740 And then I asked a lot of people. 00:14:50.980 --> 00:14:51.940 Andy, I asked you. 00:14:52.040 --> 00:14:52.940 I asked Mark Lutz. 00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:53.840 I asked Jason. 00:14:54.800 --> 00:15:01.180 Who do you know that's making serious progress with digital discipleship? 00:15:01.540 --> 00:15:09.300 Then I figured out emails, and we did kind of an online panel forum to say, so what do you want to know from your peers? 00:15:09.300 --> 00:15:11.620 Because right now, there's not a term. 00:15:11.780 --> 00:15:12.500 There's not wording. 00:15:12.620 --> 00:15:14.400 There's not clear leaders of the pack. 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:22.820 There's not kind of a watering hole that this is where we all gather to share our ideas, as eventually happens with most movements. 00:15:23.400 --> 00:15:29.640 And I thought, okay, let me find who those people are and ask them what they want to know about each other. 00:15:29.740 --> 00:15:31.460 And then I built that into a survey. 00:15:31.460 --> 00:15:40.220 I sent the survey to them in a larger group, and 112 churches that, in my view, qualified, gave their answer. 00:15:40.340 --> 00:15:48.380 And by qualified is they either had more people online than in person, or like Andy, for you, that's pretty easy because you have zero in person. 00:15:50.160 --> 00:15:52.360 Or they said they're growing fast. 00:15:52.520 --> 00:15:59.320 And I didn't mean that as a put-down because there are, in fact, in the book, Becoming a Future-Ready Church, 00:15:59.320 --> 00:16:05.500 we highlight one church that is entirely digital and the pros and cons of them as a future. 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:13.500 But anyway, are we either growing faster online than in person, or are we having more people online and in person? 00:16:13.980 --> 00:16:26.340 And are we seriously committed, as evidenced by a full-time staff member, if you're larger, or one of other evidences, to doing digital well? 00:16:27.660 --> 00:16:31.020 And of those, I ask them a whole bunch of questions. 00:16:31.800 --> 00:16:37.860 And that's where three reports came out, the first of which went into Outreach Magazine. 00:16:37.980 --> 00:16:48.580 The other two of which, if you'd like to download them, just go to ecfa.org slash surveys, and they're right there at the top of the page. 00:16:48.580 --> 00:16:55.320 And it's ECFA, as in the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability, who was the sponsor of this. 00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:57.320 And you say, well, why were they the sponsor of this? 00:16:57.700 --> 00:17:03.640 Well, it's because we're all about building trust so that the world can be evangelized. 00:17:04.280 --> 00:17:11.720 And in a certain way, and we'll get to this, people are giving money online who aren't coming in person. 00:17:12.420 --> 00:17:29.340 And, you know, is this, if you will, a new fundraising, and I don't mean that in a cheap way, but a new way of fueling digital discipleship for funding the ministry. 00:17:29.560 --> 00:17:33.160 And we'll come back to that when we do eventually talk about this article. 00:17:33.500 --> 00:17:45.060 But anyway, the backdrop was just as fun as taking the findings because I got to knock on a bunch of doors and find a bunch of trailblazers and pioneers. 00:17:45.840 --> 00:17:47.140 And that was a way long answer. 00:17:47.280 --> 00:17:49.140 I won't do long answers like that. 00:17:50.360 --> 00:17:51.440 No, that's okay, Lord. 00:17:51.500 --> 00:17:52.660 That's why we had you on. 00:17:53.580 --> 00:18:03.420 You know, what I find fascinating is your initial question that you had brought up, you know, do you read the scriptures digitally? 00:18:03.880 --> 00:18:05.400 And the answer to that is yes. 00:18:06.500 --> 00:18:15.160 One could argue that is a big piece of digital discipleship, another piece of digital discipleship, instead of digital fundraising. 00:18:15.360 --> 00:18:22.980 In my mind, that's a little different to go back to your EFCA conversation or ECFA conversation. 00:18:23.380 --> 00:18:34.420 If you look at online giving as a step of obedience, as a step of discipleship, then you can also say, well, you kind of are doing digital discipleship. 00:18:34.460 --> 00:18:35.580 You just don't know it yet. 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:36.540 Yes! 00:18:36.740 --> 00:18:38.260 You're reading the Bible digitally. 00:18:38.620 --> 00:18:40.180 You're giving digitally. 00:18:40.980 --> 00:19:07.120 There's a few things left that you could probably do digitally for digital discipleship, but I don't know of any church that is so rabid about their physical gathering and the physical expression of church that they would be willing to be intellectually consistent and cut off their digital giving or that philosophical difference. 00:19:07.900 --> 00:19:09.000 I don't know of many. 00:19:10.680 --> 00:19:21.140 And because of that, in my mind, that proves all the more that digital discipleship, at least in some forms, is not only valid, but it's already happening. 00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:34.300 And if the market is already wanting this to happen, and we're resisting it, what could it do if we went with what the Spirit is already doing? 00:19:35.280 --> 00:19:36.860 Yes, yes, yes. 00:19:37.420 --> 00:19:44.740 And if that's where people live their lives, I mean, this is what Second Life and all this online stuff did. 00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:49.560 I've never done a podcast. 00:19:49.820 --> 00:19:53.520 This is my first one on this Twitch forum. 00:19:53.920 --> 00:20:00.720 And when I mentioned Twitch as an illustration to someone, I said, well, do you know how many millions of people use Twitch? 00:20:01.100 --> 00:20:07.100 I'm like, whoa, this is like a whole different world of people who connect with each other. 00:20:07.340 --> 00:20:09.000 And that's the point. 00:20:09.640 --> 00:20:13.140 So Jesus said, I got other cities to go to. 00:20:13.860 --> 00:20:15.100 Take the gospel there. 00:20:15.140 --> 00:20:18.260 And he ended up saying, you know, take it to the ends of the earth. 00:20:18.260 --> 00:20:28.080 Well, why wouldn't that include going to gamers on Twitch if that's where they hang out just as much as hanging out at the bar? 00:20:28.320 --> 00:20:30.940 Like, my wife and I are discipling. 00:20:31.220 --> 00:20:35.640 We do apprentice couples for, like, Bible study groups we lead. 00:20:36.260 --> 00:20:42.360 And, you know, our next meeting with our apprentice couple is going to be online because they're going to put their kids in bed. 00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:43.920 They don't have to get a babysitter and all. 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:48.140 They plop down on the sofa together, and they and my wife and I can talk. 00:20:48.220 --> 00:20:58.500 Well, that's going to be no less a discipleship than had they gotten a sitter and we met, you know, at a restaurant or the church or anything. 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:05.120 Because that hybrid world of back and forth is now so seamless. 00:21:05.320 --> 00:21:07.100 This is how people live their lives. 00:21:07.260 --> 00:21:11.920 So why can't we figure out how we do church and outreach as well? 00:21:13.160 --> 00:21:14.560 I'm totally with you. 00:21:14.660 --> 00:21:23.800 And to go back to your other point on, I think it's 2 John 12, if I'm not mistaken, where John's like, I'm writing you with pen and ink. 00:21:24.320 --> 00:21:26.880 I long to be with you face to face so that our joy can be full. 00:21:28.500 --> 00:21:42.620 He's mentioning, in the first century, that same tension that everyone feels in the hybrid environment, where you have this ministry that you're doing remotely, and at the same time, you want to be together, but you can't. 00:21:43.060 --> 00:21:44.560 And so what do you do? 00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:45.540 You do both. 00:21:45.660 --> 00:21:46.400 That's what you do. 00:21:46.900 --> 00:21:59.380 Because it didn't keep John from sending the letter, and John had no idea of the reach and longevity of what he was writing that we can benefit from today. 00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:04.500 Because he was thinking in his mind, oh, I want to be with you face to face so that our joy can be full. 00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:05.980 Well, full for who? 00:22:06.660 --> 00:22:07.740 For John and his buddies. 00:22:07.740 --> 00:22:26.580 Not for me, 2,000 years later, in a completely different country, but because he took the time to do both with hybrid discipleship, using the technology of his day at his time, now I get the benefit of it. 00:22:27.560 --> 00:22:34.800 And the way in which digital technologies can get multiplied for outreach is crazy. 00:22:34.800 --> 00:22:44.280 So I want to go into this outreach article in question number one, or this manifesto that you made. 00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:51.840 One of the very first statements that you said was, online ministry can be spiritually fruitful for any church. 00:22:52.240 --> 00:23:01.560 Because a lot of times, pastors are thinking, well, I'm not big like Life Church or Church Home or Crossroads that we mentioned. 00:23:01.560 --> 00:23:13.220 You know, this works really well for larger churches, particularly multi-site churches that already have somewhat of the technology in place, and they can do online stuff. 00:23:13.640 --> 00:23:20.620 But what you're saying here is that this online ministry can actually work for any church. 00:23:20.780 --> 00:23:22.520 So tell me a little bit more about that. 00:23:23.240 --> 00:23:38.040 Well, one of the examples I bumped into in researching this was a very small church of largely immigrants from a country where Christianity is illegal. 00:23:39.480 --> 00:23:43.160 And they are here in the United States. 00:23:43.160 --> 00:23:49.300 And the guy married someone from a different country. 00:23:50.640 --> 00:24:02.860 And I was talking to him about his online ministry, and he's like, you know, there are other groups just like us in pockets around the world. 00:24:03.220 --> 00:24:13.520 From this country where we have two different nationalities represented that historically didn't get along, but because I married someone they do. 00:24:13.880 --> 00:24:19.900 And we've found incredible fellowship in the gospel. 00:24:20.120 --> 00:24:26.920 And I'm just thinking, oh, God, this is just so – we didn't need an airplane to go fly or money. 00:24:27.580 --> 00:24:41.380 All we needed was the internet, and, you know, this relative who spoke to this relative who spoke to this friend and said, oh, let me connect you with this church and, you know, this – and to think, man, is that possible. 00:24:41.380 --> 00:24:57.380 I first got that idea on Easter 2020 when we were all shut down, and I thought, you know, more people are going to hear the gospel this month than at any time in human history because, you know, this small Cambodian church in New York City is broadcast. 00:24:57.580 --> 00:25:03.260 They're hosting their service, and everybody's doing it in their language and culture, and it's out there now. 00:25:03.780 --> 00:25:06.980 And how exciting that the gospel can be spread. 00:25:07.560 --> 00:25:17.680 So that's the experiential answer that a church of any size – the survey actually asked that question and said, you know, 00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:30.660 do you believe that you have to have an app in order to have effective online discipleship, that you have to have a certain size or staff commitment to do so? 00:25:31.480 --> 00:25:32.960 And the answer is no. 00:25:33.500 --> 00:25:44.820 And the one thing I always encourage churches when I see, like – I was part of a church plant years ago, and we were – had what we called an overflow room, not a good term. 00:25:45.580 --> 00:25:54.400 And I wish you could have seen the jerry-rigged cameras where one guy ducked this from his home and, you know, these patch cables that were duct taped on. 00:25:54.400 --> 00:26:11.040 And you really need to take a picture of this because the humble beginning had vision, and it led to – and it's going to lead to – and the church did grow and eventually, you know, was able to pony up and buy some real equipment and everything. 00:26:11.040 --> 00:26:17.600 But it wasn't that the money led the vision, it was the vision led the money. 00:26:17.600 --> 00:26:22.420 And the vision was, let's use the tools we've got to get where we are. 00:26:22.860 --> 00:26:32.340 And it's just so inspiring to me to see that churches of every size are able to figure out to – okay, so I'm going to take my iPhone and we're going to clip it here, you know. 00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:35.820 Okay, not ideal, but it works. 00:26:36.620 --> 00:26:44.480 And if it helps grow and strengthen the body of Christ, they keep doing it. 00:26:44.540 --> 00:26:45.620 Let's see where it goes. 00:26:47.020 --> 00:27:04.060 Yeah, you know, I just came back from Korea being at Lazon, the Congress there, and what fascinated me was with all of the research that they were showing on global shifts between now and 2050, 00:27:04.060 --> 00:27:26.880 very similar to what you're describing, what really stood out to me was the parts of the world that are now being connected to the internet with smartphones and that higher level of connectivity is – happens to be the same parts of the world where there is so much persecution against the church, 00:27:27.060 --> 00:27:42.000 which happens to be the same groups of people that are migrating as refugees all around the world – I don't think that those things converging are by accident. 00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:59.180 And to your point with your point with your story right there, I believe that Jesus is setting us up for global world evangelism in ways that have never been able in human history like they are right now. 00:27:59.180 --> 00:28:16.060 Not to mention that because you can minister to persecuted places at so much lower risk and cost to both the missionary as well as the person who's exploring matters of faith like never before. 00:28:16.600 --> 00:28:22.540 Not to mention the fact – and here's something to think about too because I was a – I'm a former missionary, right? 00:28:23.060 --> 00:28:34.480 My heart beats for a certain part of the world and I can still be a missionary right where I am right now, just north of Austin, Texas, without changing anything. 00:28:36.220 --> 00:28:37.260 Isn't that awesome? 00:28:37.260 --> 00:28:37.640 Isn't that awesome? 00:28:37.640 --> 00:28:38.560 It is. 00:28:39.080 --> 00:28:42.480 Not to mention that you probably across the street from you. 00:28:43.180 --> 00:28:43.620 Exactly. 00:28:44.440 --> 00:28:44.860 Exactly. 00:28:44.980 --> 00:28:54.160 What about the latent potential of all ex-missionaries, former missionaries, former pastors that are in the States, Canada, in the developed world, 00:28:54.160 --> 00:29:04.960 still have a heart for a mission and are now able to minister to the emerging connected world like never before 00:29:04.960 --> 00:29:11.860 that happens to be the world that is also being persecuted for their faith and to do it in a way that is low risk? 00:29:12.040 --> 00:29:13.320 I mean, come on. 00:29:13.480 --> 00:29:14.840 Let's get the job done. 00:29:15.080 --> 00:29:16.420 I love this conversation. 00:29:16.980 --> 00:29:18.840 Now, when we talk about – 00:29:18.840 --> 00:29:25.220 Now, that said, in every development of innovation, there's always the – 00:29:25.220 --> 00:29:31.080 there's always someone who asks the following question, and in some ways, I want to validate it, that it's appropriate. 00:29:31.260 --> 00:29:39.780 And the question is, but what are the toxic side effects if we make this shift and we give up certain things? 00:29:39.780 --> 00:29:42.580 Or, you know, what is it that we're going to lose? 00:29:42.740 --> 00:29:45.680 And I appreciate people asking those questions. 00:29:46.220 --> 00:29:56.160 In a certain way, you have to not put the brakes on the trailblazers and pioneers to say, well, okay, let's get everything all figured out because you'd never go anywhere. 00:29:56.860 --> 00:29:59.620 But you do have to ask those questions. 00:30:00.300 --> 00:30:12.420 But for the meantime, to your first point from the article, can any size church have a digital discipleship impact? 00:30:13.720 --> 00:30:14.640 Enthusiastic yes. 00:30:15.180 --> 00:30:16.940 We should probably move to the second point. 00:30:17.440 --> 00:30:18.080 Yes, yes. 00:30:18.080 --> 00:30:19.140 Let's go to the second one. 00:30:19.180 --> 00:30:21.160 People are going to decide they're pointless. 00:30:23.520 --> 00:30:28.920 Yes, we can go to the second one. 00:30:30.380 --> 00:30:36.100 Yeah, I'll save some of my commentaries for later because there's a few little nuggets in there. 00:30:37.060 --> 00:30:44.120 The second one is, one of the hardest nuts to crack is connecting online participants into relationships. 00:30:45.240 --> 00:30:49.220 Anyone who's done online ministry knows exactly what this means. 00:30:49.360 --> 00:30:51.460 Can I get an amen from everybody in the back, please? 00:30:51.600 --> 00:30:51.940 Yes. 00:30:52.580 --> 00:30:52.880 Yes. 00:30:53.100 --> 00:30:56.700 So, Warren, tell us about your survey and your findings. 00:30:56.900 --> 00:30:57.000 Okay. 00:30:57.300 --> 00:30:59.280 Particularly if there's folks who have overcome. 00:30:59.280 --> 00:31:08.980 You said anyone online can say an amen, but it's actually anyone who's ever been to an in-person gathering of any kind. 00:31:09.180 --> 00:31:09.860 No, it's the same. 00:31:09.940 --> 00:31:10.700 It's the same problem. 00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:12.140 It's exactly the same. 00:31:12.140 --> 00:31:23.140 I got these people, you know, here and their body is here and I'm preaching up a storm and then they go away. 00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:27.040 And it's like, what happened? 00:31:27.360 --> 00:31:40.140 How do I, how does the Holy Spirit use our venue and circumstances and the power of the Word of God and all the other things that happen to prompt people to take that next step? 00:31:40.780 --> 00:31:55.440 Now, of course, in person, you have a leg up and that you can say, all right, I'm going to run back to the door and grab that guy before he goes out the door and say, hey, I got a tattoo like yours or whatever that, that helped me start a conversation. 00:31:57.140 --> 00:32:00.640 And online, you don't have that at all. 00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:09.460 However, I was, I was so impressed by all the churches saying, well, you know, for those who give, we do know about them. 00:32:09.560 --> 00:32:18.080 For those who, we do an after service gathering and I always ask everybody three questions like, you know, what's your name? 00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:18.820 Where are you from? 00:32:19.300 --> 00:32:20.780 And something about yourself. 00:32:21.220 --> 00:32:23.280 And over time, people begin to share. 00:32:23.400 --> 00:32:31.920 Or we have an online Bible study of some kind or prayer group of some kind and we need to exchange emails in order to be part of it. 00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:48.600 And churches that work at it can, and especially those who are relationally in tune as the online pastor or equivalent or volunteer leader can begin to say, oh, you're Charlie, right? 00:32:48.700 --> 00:32:51.040 And last week, we prayed for your daughter. 00:32:51.120 --> 00:32:52.540 Do you mind telling us how she is? 00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:54.220 And what's her name, by the way? 00:32:54.340 --> 00:32:56.160 And, you know, tell us a little bit about your family. 00:32:56.500 --> 00:33:01.680 And as that trust begins to grow, you build community. 00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:18.120 It's harder, but this is where software, which in itself is a digital thing, can help us to track who's in the room and how they are processing in their discipleship journey. 00:33:18.460 --> 00:33:25.640 And just an interesting side note, I asked two questions in the survey about discipleship journey. 00:33:25.640 --> 00:33:39.100 I said, one, how would you rate the clarity and effectiveness, I think it was effectiveness, of your discipleship pathway for your in-person attenders? 00:33:39.900 --> 00:33:42.440 And nobody gave it top marks. 00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:45.160 They all were like, it was a fail. 00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:51.640 And so they're all like, you know, okay, you know, we're at maybe seven or six or five or whatever. 00:33:51.640 --> 00:33:56.900 But then I asked the same question about their digital discipleship pathway. 00:33:57.200 --> 00:34:00.300 And the only commonality is it was always lower. 00:34:01.300 --> 00:34:08.520 So in other words, we're not doing the best job in person, but we're doing an even worse job online. 00:34:09.100 --> 00:34:19.300 Well, that makes total sense because digital things, online stuff tends to be a force multiplier for whatever you're doing. 00:34:19.700 --> 00:34:20.760 It just magnifies it. 00:34:20.820 --> 00:34:23.000 If it's good, it'll magnify it. 00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:25.760 If it's weak, it'll magnify that too. 00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:27.960 So that actually doesn't surprise me. 00:34:28.760 --> 00:34:43.840 And it kind of goes back to what I'm looking at here on the third thing that you mentioned, is that churches, just in general, aren't clear about their discipleship pathway, let alone the online pathway. 00:34:44.220 --> 00:34:49.080 So if you don't have clarity physically, online is not going to fix it for you. 00:34:51.720 --> 00:34:53.420 Exactly, exactly. 00:34:53.980 --> 00:34:58.460 And the strategies should feed each other. 00:34:59.120 --> 00:35:11.900 The things that we're learning about, you know, like one church runs the same marriage strengthener over and over, but every time they try a different title for it. 00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:13.340 They even got ChatGPT. 00:35:13.560 --> 00:35:15.960 You know, here's what we're doing. 00:35:16.240 --> 00:35:17.680 Help me come up with a better title. 00:35:18.260 --> 00:35:21.980 And then they measure how many people sign up for it. 00:35:22.560 --> 00:35:30.160 Well, they came up with 21 days to a better marriage as that's what people will sign up for in droves. 00:35:30.160 --> 00:35:38.700 Well, if that's what works in person, does that also work as a connector online, which they tried and it did. 00:35:39.260 --> 00:35:48.540 So the two worlds really need to feed each other in figuring out how do we do this discipleship pathway well. 00:35:49.980 --> 00:35:51.540 Yeah, totally with you. 00:35:51.680 --> 00:35:55.020 They're synergistic, doing them together. 00:35:55.720 --> 00:36:00.820 And you find that, even in the New Testament, it's really not a new strategy at all. 00:36:02.420 --> 00:36:04.040 Let's move to, like… 00:36:04.040 --> 00:36:10.960 Okay, yeah, but just before we move, I had several open-ended questions for give us your best idea about whatever. 00:36:11.500 --> 00:36:12.260 Oh, yeah, one more go. 00:36:12.500 --> 00:36:15.660 The good news is none of them were rocket science. 00:36:15.980 --> 00:36:20.580 None of them were like, oh, nobody has ever thought of that idea. 00:36:20.700 --> 00:36:21.120 No wonder. 00:36:22.540 --> 00:36:28.560 I didn't even reproduce them in a list because it's like, well, yeah, I mean, sure. 00:36:28.760 --> 00:36:33.780 You just figure out how people want to be connected and you connect them. 00:36:34.780 --> 00:36:35.340 Exactly. 00:36:37.040 --> 00:36:55.180 So, okay, at the end of the day, what you have, and this is, I think, what you're surfacing, Warren, is so insightful, because for whatever reason, I don't know why this is, but people feel like, oh, if you're doing digital church, you know, it's got to be radically different, the way in which you relate to people. 00:36:55.180 --> 00:37:00.560 But at the end of the day, it's just people ministering to people. 00:37:01.040 --> 00:37:01.540 That's it. 00:37:02.200 --> 00:37:03.720 That has never changed. 00:37:04.300 --> 00:37:06.780 And that is something that Jesus set up from the very beginning. 00:37:07.780 --> 00:37:09.940 We're just using newer tools. 00:37:10.140 --> 00:37:10.620 That's all. 00:37:11.340 --> 00:37:11.500 Yeah. 00:37:11.740 --> 00:37:19.380 And the same needs that people have are going to be true, whether you're in a physical environment or a digital one. 00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:20.760 It doesn't matter. 00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:23.960 I agree. 00:37:24.220 --> 00:37:33.740 But this is where the book comes in, Becoming a Future Ready Church, in the sense that people's needs are the same. 00:37:33.820 --> 00:37:37.560 And like, but different needs get accentuated at different times. 00:37:37.560 --> 00:37:48.140 Like right now, you can't go a day without hearing something about emotional health, mental health, loneliness, anxiety and all. 00:37:48.140 --> 00:37:59.140 Well, there was an era in the church that that was really a low point of need or awareness or willingness to talk about it in society. 00:37:59.660 --> 00:38:04.420 Today, if I start with that, if I start with that, I get all kinds of responses. 00:38:05.220 --> 00:38:15.940 Or to use another analogy, if I'm talking to you about my church, maybe 20 years ago, if I say, oh, we have this killer youth program and children's program. 00:38:16.040 --> 00:38:17.640 And this is we have a handbell choir. 00:38:17.740 --> 00:38:18.260 Let's say that. 00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:23.220 And maybe that was a point of resonance that people go, oh, cool. 00:38:23.340 --> 00:38:24.560 I'd like to come to your church. 00:38:24.600 --> 00:38:27.440 I'd love my children to be part of a handbell choir or whatever. 00:38:28.780 --> 00:38:29.100 Today. 00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:36.280 Now, back then, if you had said, and we volunteer at the nearby soup kitchen, people would have gone, no, I don't know if I want. 00:38:37.420 --> 00:38:39.200 Now, some people would have thrived on that. 00:38:39.860 --> 00:38:43.320 Today, that's a great front door. 00:38:43.500 --> 00:38:51.080 We're the church that sponsors the soup kitchen, that meets our community's needs in both physically and spiritually. 00:38:51.080 --> 00:38:54.700 We treat the whole person and come be part of it. 00:38:54.700 --> 00:38:57.840 Well, that's a great entry point. 00:38:58.660 --> 00:39:11.720 And so while the needs are always the same, what the response level and the words and the values and how we approach them are different. 00:39:11.720 --> 00:39:17.720 And that's all part of things you can experiment with both in person and online. 00:39:18.500 --> 00:39:20.580 I mean, we talked earlier about Google ads. 00:39:21.840 --> 00:39:23.780 Take your sermon. 00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:26.420 Have chat GPT. 00:39:26.640 --> 00:39:27.840 Slice and dice it. 00:39:28.660 --> 00:39:31.160 Into different needs that are addressed. 00:39:32.120 --> 00:39:34.760 Post those on the Internet. 00:39:34.760 --> 00:39:50.740 Just not, you know, a sermon about 1 Samuel 17 slaying Goliath, but about anxiety in not feeling adequate and see which one people are searching for. 00:39:50.960 --> 00:39:57.500 Are the things people are searching for that the gospel speaks to, that your sermons speak to, that you can point people to. 00:39:57.920 --> 00:40:05.200 And that's just a whole new way of thinking and addressing people's felt needs today. 00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:14.100 So, Warren, as you were talking, there's a couple of things that were mentioned in the chat that I did want to ask you about. 00:40:14.720 --> 00:40:19.400 When you did the survey, was it only U.S. churches? 00:40:20.020 --> 00:40:27.900 Yes, because I did talk to Steve Fogg in Australia, as was one of the many people I interviewed. 00:40:28.700 --> 00:40:37.840 And Dave, Dave Adamson, as long as I'm hat tipping Australia, I talked to, I think, three people in Australia who got up at some ungodly hour to talk to me. 00:40:38.340 --> 00:40:40.140 And I talked to Canada, because that's a little hard. 00:40:40.140 --> 00:40:46.820 And I talked to Canada, I talked to people, just, I owe Kerry Newhoff an email reply today. 00:40:47.620 --> 00:40:51.300 He's spoken to, so, but I only surveyed U.S. churches. 00:40:52.240 --> 00:41:00.560 Okay, because one of the interesting things that you just described is digital stuff doesn't really matter. 00:41:01.360 --> 00:41:04.560 And no one really cares what country it's from. 00:41:06.300 --> 00:41:09.520 And so, if it works, it works. 00:41:10.340 --> 00:41:25.960 And what I love about your approach is a little bit more casting a wide net of different ways in which you can package the content that meets a felt need, wherever that might be. 00:41:26.140 --> 00:41:32.980 I know that, in some cases, we've done things like that, and it springs up in the most random places. 00:41:33.200 --> 00:41:39.300 Like, the way that things are crafted really resonate well for folks in Germany, but not so much in the United States. 00:41:39.920 --> 00:41:52.800 And it's fascinating to see how sometimes the content in which we're already creating can resonate in different parts of the world in a global sense, even though we don't have data for that, necessarily. 00:41:53.660 --> 00:41:56.160 I've anecdotally found that to be true. 00:41:56.940 --> 00:42:07.280 One of the, moving on to, like, assertion four that you had, churches want their online attenders to connect with in-person church whenever possible. 00:42:07.640 --> 00:42:13.400 This was where I felt like, okay, as a digital person, I don't really care. 00:42:13.400 --> 00:42:22.600 I think Andy probably feels the same way, where we don't really have an in-person thing that we need to maintain. 00:42:23.140 --> 00:42:34.120 It's something that the in-person church is the nice-to-have, it's the add-on, it's the cherry on top, not the main course of what we do. 00:42:34.680 --> 00:42:49.660 And I'm curious of the people that, because you mentioned, you know, doing the survey with a lot of digital churches, was there a segment in which there were differences in opinion on this particular topic? 00:42:50.020 --> 00:42:51.760 Yeah, there sure was. 00:42:52.080 --> 00:42:53.900 And, Jason, very discerning question. 00:42:54.760 --> 00:43:00.500 I ask, are you trying to reach people largely in your geographic area? 00:43:01.300 --> 00:43:09.780 And there was a bit of a fork in the road, in that some churches are saying, this is our focus. 00:43:09.920 --> 00:43:14.300 We want to try to reach people in this metropolitan area or community or whatever. 00:43:15.220 --> 00:43:29.100 And predictably, if that's what you're focusing on, it's much easier to gather people in person to say, hey, we're doing a serve project for this needy area. 00:43:29.100 --> 00:43:39.340 You know, why don't all of you who are connected with us that are within a reasonable drive show up at this school or park or whatever you're trying to do to serve your community in Jesus' name? 00:43:40.540 --> 00:43:52.120 Others have the philosophy of, no, we want to make this so that anyone who connects can just as fully participate. 00:43:52.500 --> 00:44:04.940 And so, therefore, we need to make everything have a full-orbed parallel for what we can offer in person. 00:44:05.640 --> 00:44:07.300 Now, that's a challenge. 00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:10.860 You know, giving a hug in person, I get how to do that. 00:44:11.660 --> 00:44:16.740 How to do hugs online, that gives a few challenges. 00:44:17.740 --> 00:44:35.620 But sharing coffee online, you know, I may not be able to stand up at the same coffee urn, but we can all hold up our coffee cups and figuratively clank and everything else online. 00:44:35.620 --> 00:44:48.000 So, what can you do online that replaces or that substitutes for things that are readily done in person? 00:44:48.260 --> 00:44:53.840 And what can digital do best or even better than in person? 00:44:54.560 --> 00:44:56.280 What can in person do better? 00:44:56.400 --> 00:45:00.400 And can we just agree that it's never going to be fully parallel? 00:45:00.640 --> 00:45:02.600 And I think the jury is out on all this. 00:45:02.940 --> 00:45:07.880 And I don't want to tell anyone, Mr. or Mrs. Edison, you cannot invent that light bulb. 00:45:09.060 --> 00:45:14.540 Because this is how discoveries are made. 00:45:15.800 --> 00:45:17.220 Exactly, exactly. 00:45:17.220 --> 00:45:39.180 And I feel like churches like Lux, churches that are using the digital expression of the two in hybrid, using the digital expression as the primary expression of church, they're the ones that are discovering how powerful the digital tools are. 00:45:39.180 --> 00:45:53.360 And at the same time, are well aware of the weaknesses that can be bolstered by occasional in-person gatherings that don't necessarily have to be every week. 00:45:53.940 --> 00:45:56.560 They could be, you know, here's the interesting thing. 00:45:57.400 --> 00:46:17.080 You have, in the Old Testament, a very similar pattern, where you had the children of Israel that had an identity around following God, but they didn't get together every week, not as a nation they didn't, not as a big gathering. 00:46:17.560 --> 00:46:24.140 They did get together in homes to celebrate Shabbat every Saturday, right? 00:46:24.180 --> 00:46:25.860 But that was just their family together. 00:46:26.100 --> 00:46:30.760 That wasn't their identity as a nation, but they did have feast days. 00:46:31.700 --> 00:46:42.440 So, you know, it was like once a month-ish, where they would do these big feast days and have gatherings in tribes or gatherings as the nation. 00:46:42.440 --> 00:47:05.860 And I'm looking at the Old Testament, and I'm thinking, wow, how genius is that particular ministry design for connectedness, belonging, and of all of the people who over the millennia have maintained their national identity and national cohesion? 00:47:05.860 --> 00:47:16.140 It's the Jews, without a weekly expression where everybody has to get together. 00:47:17.260 --> 00:47:19.740 I know we need to land the plane. 00:47:20.060 --> 00:47:27.560 We're in our final minutes, but my community has become predominantly Hasidic Jewish. 00:47:27.960 --> 00:47:50.780 The hat, the curl, and that's exactly what we marvel at, that they have the meetings and the small mignon of 10 men gathering, and then they have these incredible high energy gatherings. 00:47:50.780 --> 00:47:54.760 Some for worship, some for worship, some bar mitzvahs, or other gatherings. 00:47:54.760 --> 00:47:54.960 Right. 00:47:55.520 --> 00:47:59.000 But that community is so tight. 00:47:59.720 --> 00:48:00.520 It's amazing. 00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:01.680 Yeah. 00:48:02.160 --> 00:48:02.740 It really is. 00:48:02.820 --> 00:48:07.600 I feel like when you said that, I'm just like looking out my window and thinking, yep, that's the case here, too. 00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:08.380 Okay. 00:48:08.520 --> 00:48:09.680 Let's land the plane. 00:48:10.380 --> 00:48:10.900 Yes. 00:48:12.040 --> 00:48:13.320 We'll get to the last one. 00:48:14.140 --> 00:48:19.660 Churches project a big rise in online giving beyond those who attend in person. 00:48:20.140 --> 00:48:20.960 This is fascinating. 00:48:21.040 --> 00:48:25.860 This might be the gateway drug for online ministry, I think. 00:48:28.140 --> 00:48:43.240 Well, prior to the pandemic, I and others had done research that validated something that would not be a surprise to anyone, that the more involved you are in a church, the more you give. 00:48:43.760 --> 00:48:56.960 So if you're a greeter and you lead a small group and your kids are involved in the youth group and all that, your likelihood of giving is far higher than if I'm a fringe person who just occasionally attends on Sunday. 00:48:56.960 --> 00:48:57.320 Right. 00:48:57.320 --> 00:48:57.440 Right. 00:48:58.640 --> 00:49:00.780 What about online? 00:49:02.840 --> 00:49:23.740 And from what we can tell, not just from our survey, did very little on it, but one called Epic, Exploring the Pandemic Implications for Churches, found the same thing, that the more involved online you are, the more online you give. 00:49:24.620 --> 00:49:38.180 And again, this is preliminary, but it raises the question of, could we do a better job of discipling our online participants? 00:49:38.180 --> 00:49:49.180 And if we did, and if we did in discipling them financially and in generosity, then could their generosity increase? 00:49:49.340 --> 00:50:07.460 And could it be, and I'm just raising this as my concluding question, could it be that online becomes self-funding in a certain way because those being reached and discipled then fund that aspect of the ministry? 00:50:07.460 --> 00:50:12.060 And again, jury's out, but I'm raising that question. 00:50:12.060 --> 00:50:27.140 And I'd love to see if this is a new way of funding, by developing generosity as a discipleship trait, funding the mission of God's church. 00:50:27.500 --> 00:50:33.640 So let me, I'm going to peel that onion just a second when we're not going to go deep into this because we haven't really revealed this to the church yet. 00:50:33.740 --> 00:50:36.960 So there's nobody watching, there's nobody listening to this, it's just us two. 00:50:37.320 --> 00:50:38.180 Don't worry about it. 00:50:39.040 --> 00:50:44.120 But the idea of generosity is something that Lux is going to do its fourth year. 00:50:44.360 --> 00:50:47.220 March, March of 2025 will be its fourth year. 00:50:47.960 --> 00:50:54.480 It's like for God to sustain a church, any sort of church plant that long is, it's a miracle. 00:50:54.920 --> 00:50:56.140 It's through the work of Mark. 00:50:56.220 --> 00:51:00.780 It's also through the work of the Holy Spirit kind of inundating our church. 00:51:01.020 --> 00:51:04.120 I've been in with them for two, it'll be two and a half years now. 00:51:04.800 --> 00:51:08.140 And one of the things that I've seen is an actual increase in generosity. 00:51:08.140 --> 00:51:10.040 And that's only because we've talked about it. 00:51:10.460 --> 00:51:20.400 I think what happens online a lot of times right now is that we are inundated with, hey, give $10 to this thing, buy my Patreon or subscribe to my Patreon. 00:51:20.720 --> 00:51:23.320 Hey, give me $15 to this influencer, yada, yada, yada. 00:51:23.320 --> 00:51:26.500 And there's a, there's a culture built around almost tipping. 00:51:27.240 --> 00:51:37.620 And we have had to actively push back against that and say, no, no, no, no, God's church, not necessarily, doesn't demand, because that's like, that's very forceful and draconic and all that. 00:51:37.700 --> 00:51:44.240 But God's church is substantive in a way that the internet is not. 00:51:44.320 --> 00:51:55.440 And that means that we need to pay bills, but also we need money to actually do things that are going to fund the spread of the gospel, be it giving to, be it giving to an orphanage in Uganda, which we're doing. 00:51:55.440 --> 00:52:08.200 We're giving many, many, many, many, many thousands of dollars to orphanages in Uganda, or whether it's just simply, whether it's just simply like, you know, keeping the lights on in the studios and the. 00:52:08.480 --> 00:52:11.640 We're taking care of people in need in your digital church. 00:52:11.780 --> 00:52:18.320 That's where I was going with that is that now we're getting to the point where we can actually start sending meals to people and we can start door dashing things. 00:52:18.320 --> 00:52:29.800 To people have had surgeries and you know, we've always been able to do it nickel and diming, but we're able, we've now gathered up ahead of steam, where in this next year, our, actually our emphasis next year is going to be, it's just, it's the, it's the word home. 00:52:29.920 --> 00:52:35.120 And we're talking about the church as a home and we're talking about digital church can be a home for you. 00:52:35.180 --> 00:52:36.040 And here's why. 00:52:36.040 --> 00:52:38.080 And we're, you know, labeling all the rooms and doing the whole thing. 00:52:38.080 --> 00:52:39.140 It's this big thematic thing. 00:52:39.220 --> 00:52:39.780 Love it. 00:52:39.900 --> 00:52:49.580 But the idea of generosity is that, Hey, if, if you are able to give whatever you're able to give, because most internet denizens, especially in the Lux area are gamers and gamers. 00:52:49.780 --> 00:52:53.600 Most of the time don't have a whole lot of, you know, moolah around and that's fine. 00:52:53.780 --> 00:53:04.320 It's whatever the Lord lays on your heart to give it's that act of generosity will spark other acts of generosity, which will then spark a growth of discipleship through the actual act of giving and on and on and on. 00:53:04.360 --> 00:53:05.300 That's what we're seeing there. 00:53:06.240 --> 00:53:06.600 Wow. 00:53:07.620 --> 00:53:20.880 The other thing that's interesting too, Warren is in the prevailing model of church planting, you have to raise so much money to get the thing going initially. 00:53:21.500 --> 00:53:32.160 That it creates an immense amount of pressure for the church planter to recover those funds, get critical mass, do all of those things. 00:53:33.160 --> 00:53:43.100 What's so great about digital church is that it allows the digital church planter to focus on what's really most important. 00:53:43.640 --> 00:53:45.600 And that is the digital relationships. 00:53:46.040 --> 00:53:57.560 Without that pressure and overhead, because the costs of doing a digital church are so much lower than what the prevailing model would ask of a church planter. 00:53:57.560 --> 00:54:05.260 That it allows them to run, to launch a lean in ways that your prevailing model just can't allow. 00:54:05.720 --> 00:54:13.100 And therefore, you can get to self-sustainability so much faster than would otherwise be possible. 00:54:14.460 --> 00:54:16.160 I totally agree. 00:54:16.300 --> 00:54:19.540 I'm going to make my final comment because then I've got a break. 00:54:19.780 --> 00:54:33.600 As a caution, it's easy to go lean in a way that says we're just going to be lean and not challenge people to discipleship. 00:54:34.260 --> 00:54:37.640 Say, okay, well, this is all we got and this is all we're going to spend. 00:54:38.980 --> 00:54:48.660 But what if you challenge people to develop their generosity muscles and still stay lean, how much more can we do? 00:54:48.780 --> 00:54:51.660 It's much like the bivocational church planter often. 00:54:52.360 --> 00:54:59.880 Well, you know, because I was depending on my income, I really didn't try to develop generosity as discipleship. 00:55:00.140 --> 00:55:11.100 Now that I'm shifting over to full time, I'm realizing we're not really that strong of a giving church and I really haven't cultivated that in our people. 00:55:11.940 --> 00:55:21.980 So my pitch is, my caution is still press for digital, I'm sorry, press for generosity development. 00:55:22.520 --> 00:55:28.400 But still stay lean if you want and avoid the church facility challenge. 00:55:28.780 --> 00:55:28.920 Awesome. 00:55:29.080 --> 00:55:30.780 Okay, I'm going to need to sign off. 00:55:30.840 --> 00:55:32.660 Is there anything, any final word for me? 00:55:32.740 --> 00:55:39.940 Oh, other than me saying ecfa.org slash surveys, you get three reports, free downloads if you'd like. 00:55:40.120 --> 00:55:41.340 Give me the book one more time, Warren. 00:55:41.980 --> 00:55:51.280 And the book is Becoming a Future Ready Church by Daniel Yang, Adele Banks, and Warren Bird. 00:55:51.280 --> 00:55:52.240 We love it, Warren. 00:55:52.300 --> 00:55:53.340 Thank you, Jason. 00:55:53.500 --> 00:55:53.860 Thank you. 00:55:53.960 --> 00:55:56.360 ECFA loves churches. 00:55:56.760 --> 00:55:57.880 We love ministry. 00:55:58.040 --> 00:55:59.580 We love getting the gospel out. 00:55:59.680 --> 00:56:00.860 This is our investment. 00:56:01.540 --> 00:56:09.960 They're behind me doing this because they want to enhance trust in donors so that the Great Commission can be fulfilled. 00:56:10.380 --> 00:56:10.880 Love it. 00:56:11.020 --> 00:56:12.260 Thank you, Warren, for being here. 00:56:12.380 --> 00:56:15.120 Thank you so much for just blessing us with all of your wisdom. 00:56:15.600 --> 00:56:17.080 Jason, thank you so much for being here. 00:56:17.140 --> 00:56:20.000 Everyone on Twitch and everyone on YouTube, thank you so much for being here. 00:56:20.340 --> 00:56:22.180 We will see you next time. 00:56:22.320 --> 00:56:22.780 Love you guys.