WEBVTT

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 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

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 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church,

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 but more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions.

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 Is disciple-making possible digitally?

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 How should we approach the digital mission field?

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 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space?

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 Oh, and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this?

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 Whether you're a big or small church,

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 the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church,

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 digitally and physically.

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 And now here's your host, Jeff Reed.

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 All right, ladies and gentlemen, we are set up and ready to rock and roll.

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 On the screen now, bringing the man, the myth, the legend himself, Jeff Reed.

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 Let's go, let's go.

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 Jeff, thank you so much, man, for wanting to connect today,

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 talk a little bit about online church, influence, all the good stuff.

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 And I know that this is going to get recorded, slapped on you guys' YouTube channel and content.

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 And so we'll let you do the hosting.

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 We're going to play a little hot potato with the host.

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 I'm going to talk right now as host for the live stream, get you guys all plugged in,

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 and we'll kick it to Jeff.

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 He's going to do the podcast interview, and we'll go from there.

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 But a lot of people are watching right now, and they're like,

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 yo, who's this legend with a crazy, epic, nerdy background?

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 So, Jeff, let the people know, my man, who are you?

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 What's Church Digital all about?

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 Talk for a little bit, man.

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 Oh, man, yeah, excited about this.

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 Thanks for letting me take over your show here.

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 I reached out to Susie.

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 I was like, hey, let's do an interview.

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 And for some reason, instead of doing this on my stuff, we decided to do it on his.

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 And it's more fun.

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 I'm taking over.

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 Let's go.

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 Over Susie's show here.

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 Love it.

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 Yeah, so my name is Jeff Reed.

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 Maybe seven or eight years ago, back in 2018, I founded the Church Digital.

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 Long story on me, I was probably called to be a digital pastor back in 1992 as an eighth grader.

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 I read the word.

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 Susie, were you even alive in 92?

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 I was born in 91.

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 Dang it.

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 Barely alive.

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 Barely alive.

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 Man, you were in diapers when I read the word multimedia.

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 You know, it's this merger of graphics, of text, and video.

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 And it was good.

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 Back in 92, they were talking about it being distributed over this mysterious network called the Internet.

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 And immediately, I just had this vision, this dream of how the church could utilize that.

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 And no kidding aside, I've spent every moment since 1992 driven to help the church better understand that technology.

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 The first online Bible study I led was in the year 2000.

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 I started a company called eBeliever.com.

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 When no church would hire me, when I graduated from college in 99, nobody would hire me, surprise, surprise, to be a digital pastor.

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 So I said, screw it.

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 I'll do it myself.

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 And I started eBeliever.com.

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 40,000 people.

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 We were doing Facebook discussion walls and online sermons, video teaching files on Windows Media.

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 And I don't know if any of you were alive for real networks.

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 This is not back when they were cutting video with razor blades.

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 Although I did actually learn how to do that.

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 But that's a whole other story.

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 But so, yeah, man, I've been doing this a long time.

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 We spun off the church digital recently to become a digital missionary sending agency.

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 Basically, you know, I look at guys like what Susie's doing and it's like, how can I help the next generation of digital church planters, of digital missionaries?

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 Connect, connect with people, engage in community better.

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 What does it look like to even discipleship, evangelism, discipleship relationally in digital spaces?

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 How do we equip and mobilize missionaries to go out?

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 And so we're really working hard.

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 A, for this class, this generation of digital pastors and missionaries to succeed.

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 And then also to help the next generation kind of come along.

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 And so, you know, when I look at Susie, Susie, you've been doing this 12 years at this point?

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 10.

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 Just celebrated 10 in December.

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 10.

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 10.

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 10 in December.

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 Man, like, you're one of the OGs, man.

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 There's not that many who have been doing it that long, especially that are still around.

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 Like, there were a lot that kind of tried early on and petered out and lost energy.

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 But, man, you've managed to keep it going.

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 And so it's so exciting.

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 But what I tell people is, like, as this generation succeeds, so will the next generation.

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 Like, if Susie doesn't succeed with XP Church, it's going to be so much harder to get another planter to come in and replace him.

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 And so, man, we're, like, all in on helping digital churches, streamers, gamers, you know, top to bottom.

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 We can talk about virtual reality.

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 We can talk about MMO games.

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 We can talk about Facebook.

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 You know, TikTok may be going away here in America, but it's still hugely popular globally.

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 And, man, it's a beautiful time to be alive doing ministry.

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 And so, yeah, if you're interested in becoming – I don't want to be, like, if you're interested in becoming the next Susie, because I don't know if there could be another Susie.

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 But we love working with people who have a vision of doing something different digitally to reach the different people.

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 Like, the buildings are going to reach the people the buildings are going to reach.

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 But there are so many other people that are not going to go anywhere near a church building.

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 You know, especially in this gamer space, we all know that.

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 And so, to be able to do ministry, to reach people in that space, that's why we're here with the Church Digital.

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 Love it, man.

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 And, Jeff, I just love how long you've been at this, man.

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 Like, a lot of people – like, I get that title a lot, which I'm very humbled by, like the OG.

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 Dude's been around forever.

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 But the reality is, like, as crazy as people thought I was when I started, I can't even imagine how crazy they thought you were when you started.

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 Like, 92?

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 Like, even – people couldn't even imagine that had been possible.

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 Yeah.

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 And I just – I love it.

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 It was AOL 1.0, you know, honestly, back then in, like, 92, right?

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 And, you know, I'm looking at – you know, and I'm a – listen, I'll be honest here.

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 This is the unfiltered version.

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 I was a middle schooler.

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 I'm not saying I did everything I should have done with the internet back then.

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 Sure.

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 AOL chat rooms were the cesspool.

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 IMs were a thing.

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 Spicy, yeah.

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 But I saw that at that technology as a possibility and, you know, could see through the cesspool, could see through the literal crap.

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 Yeah.

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 To see potential for engaging.

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 And there were friends who had tried.

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 There were churches who were boycotting and angry because of the darkness.

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 You know, and to be honest, like, we need – we need the XP churches.

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 We need the virtual reality churches to shine a light in the darkness.

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 We need this.

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 But at the same time, to shine the light in the darkness, we've got to shine the light in ourselves, right?

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 And we've got to recognize that, you know, the areas that we're doing ministry – this is a whole other conversation, Susie –

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 but the ministries we're doing ministry in are, by nature, addictive.

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 And so what does the armor of God look like as a digital pastor in gaming space?

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 What is the breastplate of righteousness?

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 What is the shield of faith?

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 You know, whatever the foot thing is that I can't remember.

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 Like, what is that?

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 And how do we claim that?

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 How do we utilize that in this space?

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 Digital is so different.

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 And Susie's a walking example of this.

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 You are so different than, you know, the typical physical church pastor.

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 And thank God, you know, 25% of Americans right now are engaging in physical church.

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 One out of four.

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 I don't know if that's a bad stat.

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 It was two out of four 25 years ago.

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 So it's heading down to the left here.

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 But the heart of this is, once again, Susie's going to reach people through World of Warcraft.

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 You know, most Christians are boycotting that because of Satanic or whatever.

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 But Susie's going to reach people through that space that aren't going to go anywhere near those buildings.

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 And same as you said of the other people that are here in the streamer and in the Twitch space.

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 And so everybody's got their ones that they need to reach, that they're called to reach.

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 You know, let's just help you get there and recognize the potential of it.

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 That's, that's, that's all I'm saying.

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 Yeah, man.

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 Well, I, uh, I appreciate your heart.

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 I can do spiels all day long, man.

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 Well, we can, we can just go back and forth about all that stuff all day.

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 Well, we will go ahead.

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 Well, hey, you know what?

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 We'll kick it to you, bro.

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 You can go ahead and start the video slash podcast.

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 I just want to shout out just a few people in chat.

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 Do you have the chat open too, by the way?

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 I do not.

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 Let me, let me dial it up right now.

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 I was thinking I was going to ask.

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 The people are waiting to be seen.

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 Notice me, senpai, they say.

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 Yeah, man, my fault.

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 I am, I am not a Twitch guy.

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 Like, I, I openly confess this to the crowd.

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 I'm, I'm not a streamer.

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 I just fake one.

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 I just play one on TV.

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 And so I'm, I'm honored and humbled here to be looking at this.

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 So let me dial up Twitch right now and we'll get there.

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 Let's go for it.

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 Yo, Bougie, welcome, brother.

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 Good to see you, my man.

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 Yo, bad guy.

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 The dude, there is actually some people doing some stuff with Metaverse, man.

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 I know that Life.Church also tried something for a little while.

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 I don't know if they're continuing with that, but I know they were trying for a little while.

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 Tall Skinny, welcome from New Zealand.

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 JS Gardening, good to see you.

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 And Captain Jack and Photoshop, welcome, welcome, welcome.

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 Friends, you're coming in just in time.

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 We are officially about to begin as soon as Jeff gets that chat open, the podcast episode.

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 I'm going to go ahead and take a host hat off, pass it over to my man.

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 He's going to start.

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 I got everything recording at my end, so you're good.

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 We'll go ahead and start the official episode the way he would normally do on his platform.

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 The reason we're doing it this way is when he reached out, the time he gave that worked

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 for him, I was like, well, that's during my normal stream schedule.

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 So I was like, why don't we just do it on the stream, bruh?

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 And friends, here we are.

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 Jeff, over to you, my man.

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 Yeah, he literally said, bruh, on Discord.

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 And I was like, dude, really?

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 But it's okay.

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 We're good.

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 All right.

00:09:58.340 --> 00:10:00.040
 Hey, welcome to the Church Digital Podcast.

00:10:00.300 --> 00:10:02.120
 I actually have no idea what number this is.

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 Maybe 320.

00:10:03.140 --> 00:10:04.520
 Okay, let's call it 327.

00:10:05.080 --> 00:10:12.020
 If you are watching us right now on Twitch, we're hanging out on a Susie, Pastor Susie's

00:10:12.020 --> 00:10:13.100
 live stream.

00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:17.740
 I was supposed to be, I'm going to be traveling next week when I'm doing my usual stream.

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 And so long story short, we're doing the stream early.

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 And we've got some people hanging out with us right now on Pastor Susie's Twitch.

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 I am watching the Twitch stream.

00:10:28.980 --> 00:10:33.760
 Now, you guys know, at least those that are familiar with me, I am kind of a putz around

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 Twitch.

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 And so thankfully, I've got Susie running the reins here as we're doing this on his show.

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 And I'm excited to dig in a little bit into XP Church and to get into the heart of Susie

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 and to really talk a little bit about what influence and what an influence or what that

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 role is in digital ministry.

00:10:55.540 --> 00:11:01.240
 And so Susie, Pastor Susie, one of the OGs of digital church, man, thanks for jumping on

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 the podcast with us here.

00:11:02.540 --> 00:11:03.560
 Yeah, it's an honor, man.

00:11:03.740 --> 00:11:05.220
 Jeff, always love getting to connect with you.

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 I know we've connected multiple times in the past, and it's always good to connect with

00:11:08.560 --> 00:11:11.720
 someone who also has like a shared passion for online space.

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 You know, I'm used to people trying to convince me that I'm actually insane, which they might

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 maybe be a little bit accurate, but really delegitimize the idea of online ministry.

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 So when you find someone with a kindred spirit, it's always a great conversation.

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 Hopefully, it'll be valuable to those who are listening at home.

00:11:26.140 --> 00:11:26.920
 I love it.

00:11:27.080 --> 00:11:31.280
 One of your guys here, CPT Jack, just called me, hello there, Mr. Reed.

00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:37.420
 I don't know whether to be grateful for that or insulted, but I'm going to assume the best

00:11:37.420 --> 00:11:39.640
 of you with that comment.

00:11:40.060 --> 00:11:40.720
 Yes, exactly.

00:11:40.920 --> 00:11:45.700
 And so if anybody else has got some comments or shaded insults, feel free to throw them

00:11:45.700 --> 00:11:47.260
 my way right there.

00:11:47.400 --> 00:11:49.560
 I do try to keep an eye on the chat.

00:11:49.640 --> 00:11:51.720
 So excited to see what comes of that.

00:11:51.780 --> 00:11:56.280
 And it is really excited to be here on Pastor Susie's stream.

00:11:56.400 --> 00:11:57.900
 So let's open this up.

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 Like, you know, I know you.

00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:03.420
 You've been on the podcast a couple of times.

00:12:03.520 --> 00:12:05.080
 We did a Giving Tuesday stream.

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 You know, I've done, I don't know, 300 plus of these episodes now.

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 And so a lot of times it gets lost.

00:12:10.040 --> 00:12:13.940
 Pastor Susie, you know, give us, give us a little, give us a two minute version of your

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 story.

00:12:14.440 --> 00:12:14.600
 Sure.

00:12:14.700 --> 00:12:14.900
 Yeah.

00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:17.960
 So a TLDR, too long, didn't read version of me.

00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:19.380
 My real name is Matt Sousa.

00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:24.260
 My wife and I grew up in Massachusetts, attended North Point Bible College, where we got our,

00:12:24.260 --> 00:12:28.640
 you know, bachelor's degrees and had a vision of doing normal church.

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 And to be honest, when we graduated, that was what we did.

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 We worked at the typical church, suit and tie.

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 And for us, you know, I was suit and tie Sunday morning, gamer headset Sunday night.

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 And God began to give me like a burden and a vision to reach gamers around the world.

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 But I didn't really know what that meant.

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 This was back in 2014.

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 So live streaming was not very popular or normal back then.

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 And I stumbled across the website Twitch that we're literally live streaming on now.

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 And I just started playing games.

00:12:56.020 --> 00:13:01.080
 And literally while I was playing the games, live people would come in the stream and talk

00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:01.340
 to me.

00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:03.700
 And I would just be playing the game and sharing about the love of Jesus.

00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:06.620
 And people started making decisions left and right.

00:13:06.680 --> 00:13:07.280
 Like, hey, you know what?

00:13:07.300 --> 00:13:08.300
 I've been I'm hearing the gospel.

00:13:08.420 --> 00:13:09.700
 I'm hearing the story of God's love.

00:13:10.140 --> 00:13:11.540
 I want to be a follower of Jesus.

00:13:12.220 --> 00:13:16.720
 The issue was the only way for them to get plugged into a church would be literally for

00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:20.000
 them to go on Google and just find the closest one to their house.

00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:23.020
 And Jeff, as I'm saying, that you can imagine already the horror stories.

00:13:23.900 --> 00:13:28.460
 And unfortunately, as people were doing that and really, I mean, like taking a risk to

00:13:28.460 --> 00:13:33.880
 go visit a church, it still hurts me to this day that a lot of them, you know, they were

00:13:33.880 --> 00:13:35.880
 walking in a church with like a Dungeons and Dragons shirt on.

00:13:36.620 --> 00:13:40.400
 And as much as I hate admitting it, there were churches that were literally telling people

00:13:40.400 --> 00:13:43.120
 like, you have to change a shirt before we'll let you come in here.

00:13:44.240 --> 00:13:47.920
 And unfortunately, there were some people that had some good experiences, but we had the

00:13:47.920 --> 00:13:49.900
 way I put it, we had more horror stories than testimony.

00:13:50.780 --> 00:13:55.060
 And so really, Jeff, kind of like what you said about like you and Church Digital, it just

00:13:55.060 --> 00:13:59.100
 reached a point where my wife and I were like, if these gamers can't find a church they can

00:13:59.100 --> 00:14:01.260
 be a part of, then I'll make one for them.

00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:06.860
 And so then in 2016, after about a year and a half of just streaming, we started a fully

00:14:06.860 --> 00:14:08.940
 digital expression of online church.

00:14:09.320 --> 00:14:13.440
 And for almost nine years, nine years now, we'll celebrate nine years next month, March

00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:17.440
 23rd, we have been sharing God's love and making disciples of gamers online.

00:14:17.600 --> 00:14:18.480
 It's been a wild journey.

00:14:18.740 --> 00:14:19.260
 We love it.

00:14:19.320 --> 00:14:20.300
 Lives have been transformed.

00:14:20.700 --> 00:14:22.000
 We've had a ton of fun along the way.

00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:24.200
 And we're definitely still learning as we go.

00:14:24.400 --> 00:14:27.160
 But that was really the why behind why we started our church.

00:14:27.220 --> 00:14:27.920
 It was just a need.

00:14:28.040 --> 00:14:28.760
 We found a solution.

00:14:28.980 --> 00:14:29.640
 We created it.

00:14:30.060 --> 00:14:31.740
 And now nine years later, here we are.

00:14:32.660 --> 00:14:34.100
 Yeah, that's beautiful.

00:14:34.560 --> 00:14:40.260
 By the way, I'm doing a podcast with Amanda, stream with Amanda here, I think in a month

00:14:40.260 --> 00:14:44.320
 or so, talking about why there are not more women in digital ministry.

00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:54.240
 I've got her, I've got one of our children's ministry catalysts, and a digital pastor that

00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:58.540
 runs like a thousand person church on WhatsApp.

00:14:59.020 --> 00:15:01.280
 And so it's all female.

00:15:01.540 --> 00:15:03.460
 Really, really excited to see that.

00:15:03.620 --> 00:15:08.080
 I've had some of those conversations with Amanda in the past, and anyway, more information

00:15:08.080 --> 00:15:11.060
 on that over on The Church Digital on our Discord.

00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:17.340
 By the way, if you're interested in connecting on anything on us, discord.thechurch.digital,

00:15:17.580 --> 00:15:19.380
 that'll get you to our Discord channel.

00:15:19.560 --> 00:15:21.840
 But Susie, let me ask.

00:15:22.040 --> 00:15:23.780
 You know, right here, we're going to get into some meat here in a minute.

00:15:23.900 --> 00:15:25.260
 So I'm going to throw you a softball here.

00:15:26.460 --> 00:15:31.240
 What advice, you've been doing this nine, 10 years, 10 years, nine years as a church,

00:15:31.340 --> 00:15:33.820
 streaming kind of in there, totally get the story.

00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:36.880
 Physical churches weren't reacting to gamers, so screw it, I'll do it myself.

00:15:38.580 --> 00:15:42.360
 What advice would you give to somebody starting out right now?

00:15:42.460 --> 00:15:46.640
 What is the thing that you learned nine years the hard way that you can, you know, help

00:15:46.640 --> 00:15:48.900
 somebody, you know, get quickly?

00:15:49.300 --> 00:15:52.680
 Yeah, probably the biggest piece of advice that I've learned that I wish I had done early

00:15:52.680 --> 00:15:56.020
 on, Jeff, and I think you mentioned it, forgive me, I forget it was after we started the recording

00:15:56.020 --> 00:15:58.280
 or not, but you had mentioned it, like, everyone's got to find their one.

00:15:59.180 --> 00:16:03.360
 And today, I kind of describe it as, like, really, like, identifying, like, who is the

00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:05.540
 target audience that, like, you're trying to reach?

00:16:06.200 --> 00:16:10.280
 Early on, a lot of people, and I think we do this in the church, because obviously, like,

00:16:10.380 --> 00:16:13.780
 the truth of God's love, the gospel, is, I believe, for everybody.

00:16:14.340 --> 00:16:17.320
 And so we try to throw these really, really, really wide nets.

00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:21.420
 But then you realize, like, especially when it comes to content and online ministry, when you're

00:16:21.420 --> 00:16:25.340
 trying to just reach everyone, you actually end up really reaching just, like, a very few.

00:16:26.100 --> 00:16:29.900
 And so you got to really kind of get, like, you got to fine-tune, like, your niche.

00:16:30.340 --> 00:16:31.880
 Who is the type of person you're reaching?

00:16:32.220 --> 00:16:33.340
 What are their interests?

00:16:33.660 --> 00:16:39.280
 What pain points and frustrations do they have that you can create valuable solutions to them?

00:16:39.620 --> 00:16:44.080
 So, for example, a big thing that I do in my stream on the Unity Gaming side, which we can

00:16:44.080 --> 00:16:46.880
 get into if you'd like, is, like, I'm a huge World of Warcraft player.

00:16:47.260 --> 00:16:49.280
 So I get what it's like to be a World of Warcraft player.

00:16:49.500 --> 00:16:50.540
 I get their frustrations.

00:16:50.680 --> 00:16:51.500
 I get their pain points.

00:16:51.680 --> 00:16:54.340
 I get the things they wish that they had, but they don't have.

00:16:54.840 --> 00:16:58.720
 And so because I understand their language and their feelings, I can then be like, okay, well,

00:16:58.940 --> 00:17:02.560
 can I build something that every World of Warcraft player wishes they had?

00:17:03.280 --> 00:17:04.140
 And so that I did.

00:17:04.560 --> 00:17:08.500
 And a Discord called Unity Gaming now has almost 3,000 people, because we just found out what

00:17:08.500 --> 00:17:08.960
 they wanted.

00:17:09.040 --> 00:17:13.020
 And now we just continuously add valuable solutions that are helpful to them.

00:17:13.260 --> 00:17:18.600
 And that has relationally opened up so many doors for me to just connect with those people,

00:17:18.600 --> 00:17:21.680
 because what I'm doing is valuable to them.

00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:28.900
 And to be honest, for years, I think the only thing that was valuable that I was sharing was

00:17:28.900 --> 00:17:29.420
 the gospel.

00:17:30.080 --> 00:17:34.320
 And the gospel is obviously the spiritual side of things, but the reality is, like, Jesus

00:17:34.320 --> 00:17:39.480
 didn't just do spiritual ministry, like, he did physical ministry, meaning when people

00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:42.400
 were hungry, he gave them something to eat.

00:17:43.360 --> 00:17:47.420
 And I think the real niche side is, okay, I'm a Christian.

00:17:47.520 --> 00:17:48.660
 I want to create some content online.

00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:50.980
 Sure, you're going to, everyone's going to do the spiritual side.

00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:54.460
 But what is the food that you're trying to feed to the hungry people?

00:17:55.160 --> 00:17:56.340
 Who are those hungry people?

00:17:56.620 --> 00:17:57.940
 What kind of food do they even like to eat?

00:17:58.560 --> 00:18:01.340
 Because if you try to feed someone something they don't want to eat, like, you're not going

00:18:01.340 --> 00:18:02.680
 to be, why won't they eat this food?

00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:05.000
 It's like, well, that's the last thing that they ever want to eat.

00:18:05.380 --> 00:18:10.040
 So, like, identifying who your audience is, like, what are pain points they have, and then

00:18:10.040 --> 00:18:11.720
 adding some valuable solutions to them.

00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:14.900
 It took me probably eight years to figure that out.

00:18:17.940 --> 00:18:20.380
 And I wish I had figured it out sooner.

00:18:20.380 --> 00:18:22.360
 But, you know, we're a learning journey, but there's no point.

00:18:22.560 --> 00:18:23.740
 So I love what you're doing, Jeff.

00:18:23.860 --> 00:18:25.520
 How can we make all the mistakes for you?

00:18:26.360 --> 00:18:28.420
 And then how can you just learn the best?

00:18:28.500 --> 00:18:31.340
 They say the best way to learn from your mistakes is to let someone else make them for you.

00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:33.440
 Make somebody else make it, yeah.

00:18:33.800 --> 00:18:36.240
 So, like, that's probably the biggest takeaway that I would have.

00:18:36.300 --> 00:18:39.420
 I mean, there's a lot else in there we could talk, but if you're asking what's the one,

00:18:39.560 --> 00:18:40.780
 that's probably it.

00:18:42.040 --> 00:18:47.400
 Yeah, I mean, we sang the saying a lot, pioneers get shot, settlers get rich.

00:18:47.660 --> 00:18:53.020
 And so, you know, you have been the guy who's, you know, paying the early adopter tax.

00:18:53.580 --> 00:18:55.560
 You're washing up on the beach.

00:18:56.020 --> 00:18:59.520
 The island is filled with palm trees and you have a machete.

00:18:59.840 --> 00:19:04.120
 And so you're out there, you know, Lewis and Clarking the situation, carving the road.

00:19:04.520 --> 00:19:08.740
 Somebody else is going to follow behind you and we'll benefit from your lessons.

00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:10.600
 So thank you for your sacrifice.

00:19:10.840 --> 00:19:12.280
 I want to kind of just say that up front.

00:19:13.600 --> 00:19:14.940
 Innovation, it's sweet.

00:19:15.100 --> 00:19:24.940
 Innovation is very hard, especially in the church space, because the church by default is the antithesis of innovation.

00:19:25.140 --> 00:19:25.720
 It's interesting.

00:19:25.860 --> 00:19:31.040
 That was one of the lessons that I've learned here after about 25 years that I didn't know.

00:19:31.760 --> 00:19:38.300
 And that was why we shifted towards more of a missionary model than trying to be a digital church planting model,

00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:44.420
 which we had been for a significant amount of time, because missiology is very aggressive.

00:19:45.420 --> 00:19:48.860
 Missiology, you know, everything short of sin, let's do it for the kingdom.

00:19:48.860 --> 00:19:57.340
 You know, they will always lean towards experimenting, trying new things, exploring new areas, you know, and empowering others to do ministry.

00:19:57.520 --> 00:19:59.460
 There's multiplications built into missiology.

00:20:00.460 --> 00:20:07.240
 It's the ecclesiology of the church, in my opinion, that has really struggled over.

00:20:07.540 --> 00:20:12.660
 And this is not even like a 2000s thing or even a 1900s thing.

00:20:12.660 --> 00:20:22.900
 Like, you go back to the printing press, and he was actually considered a heretic, because when the printing press was designed and they were like printing Bibles,

00:20:23.460 --> 00:20:28.660
 well, that put priests, scribes out of a job, and they were homeless.

00:20:29.260 --> 00:20:33.400
 And so the inventor of the printing press, arguably one of the greatest inventions in a millennia,

00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:41.280
 was considered a sinner, because his device had affected the church in a negative way.

00:20:41.420 --> 00:20:41.700
 Wow.

00:20:41.700 --> 00:20:47.100
 And so that's a lot of the perception that we are still maybe operating in today.

00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:56.300
 That being said, Jesus still loves his bride, and there's purpose and roles for it even in that, which kind of segues into this.

00:20:56.500 --> 00:21:00.440
 I didn't realize that, but the next question I ask actually fit really well with that question.

00:21:01.060 --> 00:21:02.700
 So let's get into this.

00:21:02.800 --> 00:21:06.760
 So you planted the church, XP Church, instead of doing it by yourself.

00:21:07.220 --> 00:21:08.000
 No, I get it.

00:21:08.040 --> 00:21:12.460
 You're like, hey, you know, we're trying to get kids connected to churches, people connected to churches.

00:21:12.580 --> 00:21:16.340
 I don't assume they're underage, because the average game is, what, 35, 37?

00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:17.160
 Yeah, they're definitely not.

00:21:17.160 --> 00:21:18.160
 It's 33, yeah.

00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:19.160
 Yeah, and actually, funny enough.

00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:23.720
 There's a lot of, even Captain Jack, who you will like, call him Mr. Reed.

00:21:23.800 --> 00:21:25.020
 Captain Jack is actually around your age.

00:21:25.260 --> 00:21:26.100
 He actually might be older than you.

00:21:27.900 --> 00:21:30.640
 Captain Jack, I'll call myself out right now.

00:21:30.700 --> 00:21:32.660
 I am 47 years old sitting in this chair.

00:21:32.920 --> 00:21:36.020
 If you're older than me, he's older than me?

00:21:36.360 --> 00:21:38.780
 Captain Jack, I should be calling you, sir, sir.

00:21:38.780 --> 00:21:40.340
 I'm 99% sure he is.

00:21:40.460 --> 00:21:40.760
 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:21:40.760 --> 00:21:41.200
 He's 50.

00:21:41.300 --> 00:21:41.920
 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:42.200
 He's 50.

00:21:42.280 --> 00:21:42.920
 He just said.

00:21:43.020 --> 00:21:43.400
 All right.

00:21:43.500 --> 00:21:44.260
 All right, Cap.

00:21:44.660 --> 00:21:47.060
 Sir, it is a pleasure to meet you, Captain Jack.

00:21:48.360 --> 00:21:49.420
 That's awesome.

00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:53.140
 But this gets down to the, yeah.

00:21:53.260 --> 00:22:01.320
 I mean, the heart of this is that you tried to get people connected to churches, and they

00:22:01.320 --> 00:22:03.760
 were not receptive, so you built a church on your own.

00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:04.040
 Sure.

00:22:04.840 --> 00:22:07.900
 Why even go through the effort of doing a church?

00:22:08.220 --> 00:22:10.520
 Like, for you, what was the win?

00:22:10.620 --> 00:22:11.440
 What was the reason?

00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:18.160
 What were you, what did you see in a church that you felt like needed to be replicated for

00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:19.740
 the people you were connecting with?

00:22:19.740 --> 00:22:25.800
 You mean, are you asking, clarify the question for me, like, why do a church versus doing

00:22:25.800 --> 00:22:26.920
 another model of ministry?

00:22:26.940 --> 00:22:31.700
 Not doing a church, just building relationships, you know, streaming only.

00:22:32.120 --> 00:22:35.260
 Like, you went an extra mile by creating a church.

00:22:35.380 --> 00:22:36.040
 Yeah, yeah.

00:22:36.040 --> 00:22:41.060
 So, was there something that just streaming under Pastor Susie wasn't doing?

00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:42.540
 Why even bother doing the XP?

00:22:43.180 --> 00:22:47.800
 Yeah, well, the reason I really felt called to do the church, one, that's, I guess, the

00:22:47.800 --> 00:22:48.240
 number one answer.

00:22:48.380 --> 00:22:49.580
 Like, I felt called of God to do it.

00:22:50.120 --> 00:22:54.480
 But number two, like, why do a church rather than just, like, stream and just keep sharing

00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:56.120
 the gospel and teach about the Bible?

00:22:56.740 --> 00:23:02.820
 And I'll be honest, that would have been significantly easier to just turn on my camera, do my thing,

00:23:02.820 --> 00:23:04.240
 and then, and then that's it.

00:23:04.380 --> 00:23:09.100
 But I really, I really felt called to, like, start an online church for gamers because,

00:23:09.780 --> 00:23:12.600
 one, first of all, I believe that online gaming is a massive community.

00:23:13.140 --> 00:23:15.920
 And I think that's one of the things that a lot of gamers lack.

00:23:16.500 --> 00:23:22.660
 There is this almost illusion that gaming, because they call it the gaming community,

00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:26.880
 just automatically is a community because you're surrounded by thousands of other people.

00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:30.460
 Like, for example, when I play World of Warcraft, I'm running around in this world and I see

00:23:30.460 --> 00:23:32.260
 hundreds of other people.

00:23:32.800 --> 00:23:37.380
 And we might call ourselves a community, but if I don't talk to them, don't know them,

00:23:37.460 --> 00:23:40.940
 don't, like, we're not, we're just strangers who all have to be in the same place.

00:23:41.560 --> 00:23:47.120
 And so, where I'm getting at is, I really believe that gamers, like, really longing for community.

00:23:47.180 --> 00:23:53.240
 And I didn't think that by just me creating content, putting out some YouTube videos,

00:23:53.740 --> 00:24:00.800
 even live streaming would create the level of community and growth that they needed with each other.

00:24:01.320 --> 00:24:04.500
 Like, live streaming, even though people call it a community,

00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:09.120
 and depending on the individual stream, it can feel like a community,

00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:14.860
 but it's mostly just a community between the people interacting with the face on screen.

00:24:16.060 --> 00:24:16.300
 Right.

00:24:16.560 --> 00:24:21.980
 There's little interaction with each other, and sometimes there can be,

00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:24.680
 but it's normally not on a deep level.

00:24:25.340 --> 00:24:26.240
 It's normally not really.

00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:27.000
 It is hard to do.

00:24:27.140 --> 00:24:28.680
 Yeah, they're not really getting to know each other.

00:24:28.780 --> 00:24:30.320
 They're not sharing life struggles together.

00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:32.120
 They're just talking to the streamer.

00:24:32.180 --> 00:24:36.460
 And nothing wrong with that, but I had identified that there's a deeper need.

00:24:36.560 --> 00:24:40.040
 People need more than just an encouraging guy on the camera.

00:24:40.620 --> 00:24:41.980
 They need each other.

00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:46.980
 And I really felt that the church model would not just bring people to me,

00:24:47.040 --> 00:24:49.800
 but it would bring them together to grow in their faith,

00:24:50.060 --> 00:24:52.280
 to talk about their life struggles.

00:24:52.600 --> 00:24:54.800
 Like, I just believe that life and gaming are better together.

00:24:55.060 --> 00:24:57.780
 And so, the church model for me, I really wanted to give people,

00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:00.320
 like, everything in the body of Christ, a church experience,

00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:02.720
 when it's done in the right, healthy way, has to offer.

00:25:02.900 --> 00:25:05.720
 And I didn't think that just watching my stream would give them

00:25:05.720 --> 00:25:09.880
 the same level of spiritual community and, like, human interaction.

00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:15.760
 And I really, I just, I felt driven to give them more than just me on screen.

00:25:16.180 --> 00:25:18.200
 And hopefully, I've been able to accomplish that in some way.

00:25:19.740 --> 00:25:20.940
 Yeah, that's beautiful.

00:25:21.120 --> 00:25:24.840
 That, I mean, that echoes a lot of what we see and what we do as well.

00:25:25.040 --> 00:25:25.700
 It's interesting.

00:25:25.780 --> 00:25:29.760
 Like, I've talked with streamers, and you're a better streamer than I am.

00:25:29.840 --> 00:25:32.160
 So, I have a hard time saying this, like, quantifiably.

00:25:33.040 --> 00:25:35.220
 But next time I say this, I'll say, well, Susie said this,

00:25:35.260 --> 00:25:36.360
 and he's been doing it for a decade.

00:25:37.080 --> 00:25:41.220
 You know, it's streaming is really, it's more of a connection level.

00:25:41.700 --> 00:25:44.480
 Social media is really more of a connection level,

00:25:44.980 --> 00:25:49.500
 where it's one person who, yes, is talking to a large amount of people.

00:25:50.060 --> 00:25:52.980
 But it really is, it's a one-way communication.

00:25:52.980 --> 00:25:59.280
 Like, I mean, I can make fun of Captain Jack over here for being older than me and calling me sir.

00:26:00.120 --> 00:26:03.880
 But it's really, you know, Captain Jack, what motivated you to get out of bed this morning?

00:26:03.980 --> 00:26:06.080
 Captain Jack, what's the last Bible verse you read, Captain?

00:26:06.440 --> 00:26:08.460
 Like, it's hard.

00:26:08.680 --> 00:26:09.320
 You can do it.

00:26:09.400 --> 00:26:10.920
 Yes, I'm not going to say it can't be done.

00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:18.220
 But it is hard to get into a disciple-making type of relationship, utilizing some of these connection tools.

00:26:18.680 --> 00:26:23.660
 Now, you know, there are community tools, like Discord, like WhatsApp.

00:26:24.200 --> 00:26:28.640
 Like, I mean, even Facebook group is capable, with a synchronous community,

00:26:28.800 --> 00:26:34.680
 to really dive in and to start to develop deeper relationships in digital space.

00:26:35.240 --> 00:26:40.140
 And so you, you know, quantifying that as a church and taking advantage of Discord

00:26:40.140 --> 00:26:44.400
 and some of these things that we've seen, like, it's really interesting

00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:54.500
 how you're starting to move beyond a influencer and starting to be more of a person

00:26:54.500 --> 00:26:56.920
 who's not just at connection level, but community.

00:26:57.280 --> 00:27:03.220
 Not just gathering followers, but using the followers to build relationships.

00:27:03.740 --> 00:27:07.840
 But, by the way, arguably, you know, Jesus did this model as well.

00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:11.620
 You could look at Luke 6, where it's one of the feeding of the thousands.

00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:15.700
 And five loaves, two fish, you know, one of those stories.

00:27:16.300 --> 00:27:21.300
 And Jesus was doing signs and wonders, had a throng of people following him.

00:27:21.660 --> 00:27:22.960
 And it was time for dinner.

00:27:23.080 --> 00:27:29.380
 So Jesus does the magic, you know, does the miracle with the food and the fish and the bread.

00:27:29.560 --> 00:27:32.720
 And all of a sudden, everybody's full and they go to bed.

00:27:33.260 --> 00:27:38.080
 Well, the next morning, Jesus wakes up early, takes the 12 and goes off somewhere.

00:27:39.140 --> 00:27:43.680
 And, you know, later on that morning, the crowd wakes up and says, hey, where's brunch?

00:27:44.100 --> 00:27:46.460
 Let's go get that Jesus guy to go do the thing again.

00:27:46.760 --> 00:27:48.160
 So they go after Jesus.

00:27:48.660 --> 00:27:53.360
 There's thousands of people at this point going to find Jesus so that they can get food.

00:27:54.120 --> 00:27:55.480
 And what does Jesus do?

00:27:56.060 --> 00:27:59.480
 He starts saying things like, eat my flesh and drink my blood.

00:28:00.180 --> 00:28:03.400
 I mean, he's literally using conversation.

00:28:03.660 --> 00:28:07.460
 He's engaging with people for the purpose of building relationships.

00:28:08.020 --> 00:28:12.120
 But the relationship idea is scaring away people.

00:28:12.520 --> 00:28:18.620
 And when people actually start to listen to what Jesus is saying, was it Luke 666, I believe?

00:28:19.220 --> 00:28:24.460
 Literally, it says that even some disciples walked away from Jesus that day.

00:28:25.340 --> 00:28:30.280
 And so the idea is not to amass these large followings.

00:28:30.980 --> 00:28:36.720
 Susie, I respect you so much because you came from this organically when nobody was saying this.

00:28:37.220 --> 00:28:39.640
 It's not amassing this mass amount of people.

00:28:40.020 --> 00:28:44.620
 It's getting those people into a community and building a relationship with them.

00:28:44.820 --> 00:28:54.100
 And through that relationship, evangelism, discipleship, building trust, like that's the meat of this idea of digital ministry and digital church.

00:28:54.840 --> 00:28:58.560
 And you were like, I don't think you can really appreciate how much of a pioneer you were.

00:28:58.800 --> 00:29:05.040
 If I look at the landscape nine, ten years ago, ain't nobody thinking this way, man.

00:29:05.060 --> 00:29:07.540
 But you were one of the pioneers in that space.

00:29:08.060 --> 00:29:11.560
 Well, and I'll be honest, Jeff, I had to learn that through experience too.

00:29:11.980 --> 00:29:19.760
 When I first started, especially seeing the mass number of results you can get by live streaming and making clips and stuff,

00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:25.580
 like so many people would watch the live stream that it was hard for me to justify doing anything else.

00:29:26.040 --> 00:29:28.160
 Like because of sheer volume of numbers.

00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:37.540
 And then over the years, I learned like I'm really reaching a lot of people, but I'm having a shallow impact on a huge amount of people.

00:29:38.100 --> 00:29:44.440
 And what I had to learn is like I have to shift the ratio in which I spend live on stream creating content

00:29:44.440 --> 00:29:51.000
 so that I'm not just having a shallow reach to a large group of people, but I'm having a deeper impact to a smaller group of people.

00:29:51.220 --> 00:29:57.920
 So to be honest, even like these days, it's actually counterintuitive to like what are the best tips and tricks to grow as a content creator

00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:03.920
 where like instead of certain nights of the week where I'm streaming and creating content that would draw in a crowd,

00:30:04.180 --> 00:30:07.020
 I'm actually offline in the Discord like spending time with people.

00:30:07.600 --> 00:30:14.220
 It is not a tip of trick you want to follow if you want to, like if you want to grow and reach masses and get more subscribers,

00:30:14.500 --> 00:30:19.800
 but it will allow you to have a much deeper impact with a smaller group of people.

00:30:20.260 --> 00:30:21.640
 And that's what Jesus did.

00:30:22.140 --> 00:30:23.580
 Like Jesus invested.

00:30:23.820 --> 00:30:24.320
 Sure, he did.

00:30:24.440 --> 00:30:30.400
 He had moments where he reached huge crowds, but a majority of his life was spent with a small group of people really impacting them.

00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:35.080
 And even I over the years have adjusted the way I do things to match that model that you're talking about now.

00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:36.280
 Yeah.

00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:38.160
 Is Seth Godin on your radar?

00:30:38.460 --> 00:30:39.240
 Do you know who that is?

00:30:39.780 --> 00:30:40.640
 I don't believe so.

00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:42.100
 But thanks for calling me on live on stream.

00:30:43.300 --> 00:30:44.080
 No, sorry.

00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:44.900
 That was embarrassing.

00:30:45.040 --> 00:30:45.600
 I apologize.

00:30:45.940 --> 00:30:48.960
 Hey, let me rewind for 30 seconds.

00:30:49.320 --> 00:30:50.840
 Hey, there's this guy named Seth Godin.

00:30:51.280 --> 00:30:54.940
 He is a New York Times bestseller.

00:30:55.620 --> 00:30:56.840
 He's written 40 some books.

00:30:56.960 --> 00:31:00.240
 Arguably, he's one of the thought leaders.

00:31:00.380 --> 00:31:05.540
 He is a thought leader, but arguably one of the loudest thought leaders on marketing in America.

00:31:05.760 --> 00:31:06.100
 Oh, cool.

00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:14.300
 And yeah, so somebody went on Seth Godin's podcast right before COVID, 2019, December.

00:31:14.300 --> 00:31:15.820
 This podcast is called Akimbo.

00:31:16.460 --> 00:31:21.180
 And somebody asked Seth, hey, Seth, how do I get my message heard around the world?

00:31:21.940 --> 00:31:33.060
 So the top marketing brain on the planet, arguably, replies to this request by saying a billion people don't care about anything you have to say.

00:31:33.300 --> 00:31:33.860
 Absolutely.

00:31:34.100 --> 00:31:38.500
 You'll appreciate this because you've actually been living this, Susie.

00:31:39.020 --> 00:31:40.980
 A billion people don't care about anything you have to say.

00:31:41.080 --> 00:31:44.040
 If you want to get your message heard around the world, you've got to think smaller.

00:31:44.920 --> 00:31:49.060
 Okay, so we're supposed to think 100 million, 10 million, 1 million, 100,000, 10,000.

00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:51.460
 How small are we supposed to think?

00:31:52.260 --> 00:32:01.800
 And Seth Godin, the top marketing brain, says, if you want to get your message heard around the world, you craft a message specifically for someone.

00:32:02.660 --> 00:32:08.520
 Get that person to hear it, understand it, and get that person to tell someone else.

00:32:09.640 --> 00:32:11.720
 Like, this is not some church guy.

00:32:11.840 --> 00:32:13.720
 This is not some – by the way, he's not even Christian.

00:32:13.900 --> 00:32:15.400
 I'm pretty sure Seth Godin's Jewish.

00:32:15.860 --> 00:32:21.280
 But what he's encapsulated here is how Jesus built the church 2,000-some years ago.

00:32:21.340 --> 00:32:21.920
 Hey, you know what?

00:32:22.140 --> 00:32:30.620
 I'm going to pour into my 12, and then I've got these 72 that are – by the way, Luke 6, the ones who didn't run away from eat my flesh, drink my blood.

00:32:30.800 --> 00:32:32.600
 That was the core group of 72.

00:32:33.420 --> 00:32:36.300
 The 12 and the 72 are the reason why we have the church today.

00:32:38.100 --> 00:32:40.140
 Jesus didn't build off of the thousands.

00:32:40.520 --> 00:32:41.920
 He didn't build off of the mega.

00:32:42.440 --> 00:32:44.220
 He built off of 12 and 72.

00:32:44.680 --> 00:32:52.400
 He figured out how to craft a message for individuals and then trained them on how to craft that message for others, which got us to where we are today.

00:32:53.440 --> 00:32:57.800
 And, Susie, your idea of, hey, you know what?

00:32:57.820 --> 00:32:58.940
 We've got to narrow this down.

00:32:59.020 --> 00:33:00.620
 It took me eight years to figure this out.

00:33:01.020 --> 00:33:01.880
 Find my persona.

00:33:02.040 --> 00:33:03.180
 Find the person that I'm reaching.

00:33:03.660 --> 00:33:04.600
 You try to reach everyone.

00:33:04.700 --> 00:33:05.320
 You reach no one.

00:33:05.380 --> 00:33:12.980
 If you try to reach someone, oh, my gosh, you're going to find you're going to reach so many of that person, more than you even think are out there.

00:33:14.380 --> 00:33:17.680
 And, man, these are – those are the hard lessons of digital.

00:33:18.380 --> 00:33:19.960
 You know, digital, you want to think big.

00:33:19.960 --> 00:33:22.380
 That iPhone that you've got in your pocket.

00:33:22.660 --> 00:33:25.940
 I can press a couple buttons, and I'll be able to reach a billion people.

00:33:26.600 --> 00:33:27.400
 They don't give a crap.

00:33:28.100 --> 00:33:31.000
 It's not – they are not interested in you.

00:33:31.540 --> 00:33:33.880
 You've got to think smaller and reproducible.

00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:38.300
 You know, things like is it better to be a million-person church or 100,000 churches of 10?

00:33:38.580 --> 00:33:41.500
 We wrestle with that all the time over here.

00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:44.380
 And in my opinion – actually, Susie, what's yours?

00:33:44.980 --> 00:33:46.860
 Million-person church or 100,000 of 10?

00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:48.200
 Where do you land on that?

00:33:48.320 --> 00:33:49.940
 There's so many variables that would affect my –

00:33:49.940 --> 00:33:51.260
 There's no wrong answer, by the way.

00:33:51.580 --> 00:33:52.800
 I feel like I'm setting you up to –

00:33:52.800 --> 00:33:53.700
 No, no, no, you're good.

00:33:53.780 --> 00:33:54.440
 What's your take?

00:33:54.520 --> 00:34:00.020
 There's so many variables that go into that question, but I would lean more towards the 100,000 of 10.

00:34:00.820 --> 00:34:01.200
 I would.

00:34:01.320 --> 00:34:01.480
 Yeah.

00:34:01.580 --> 00:34:02.300
 I think there's –

00:34:02.300 --> 00:34:04.580
 Now, a million does have a lot more power.

00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:06.520
 100,000 in influence.

00:34:06.940 --> 00:34:09.100
 100,000 is more agile.

00:34:09.660 --> 00:34:12.600
 It's easier to contextualize and adapt.

00:34:13.080 --> 00:34:13.620
 You're a name.

00:34:13.700 --> 00:34:14.360
 You're not a number.

00:34:14.860 --> 00:34:25.420
 But it's that contextualization piece is what really makes us excited because, I mean, you can do a wow church.

00:34:25.820 --> 00:34:27.980
 You can do – I mean, I don't know what else.

00:34:28.160 --> 00:34:30.240
 I know, like, Jack on video games.

00:34:30.720 --> 00:34:31.920
 You can do a rival church.

00:34:31.980 --> 00:34:33.760
 You can do Black Desert Online.

00:34:33.940 --> 00:34:34.480
 You can do Rush.

00:34:34.520 --> 00:34:35.440
 You can do Final Fantasy.

00:34:35.940 --> 00:34:38.360
 You can do GTA.

00:34:39.040 --> 00:34:45.220
 Man, listen, I would love to see somebody – I know VR Memo Church did some experiments with GTA.

00:34:45.700 --> 00:34:52.100
 I would love to see somebody take a serious stab at a GTA church because there's community there.

00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:54.880
 And a GTA church – listen, I am crazy.

00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:55.340
 You're right.

00:34:55.680 --> 00:34:59.440
 A GTA church is going to look different than it would in normal spaces.

00:34:59.580 --> 00:34:59.820
 Absolutely.

00:35:00.040 --> 00:35:01.120
 But that doesn't make it bad.

00:35:01.120 --> 00:35:08.400
 I would argue you could actually have a pretty decent ecclesiology in an online GTA community.

00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:11.160
 I think it's worth giving it a shot.

00:35:11.720 --> 00:35:18.680
 I mean, what's – listen, one day I will stand before God and say, okay, Jesus, tell me, where did I screw it up?

00:35:19.260 --> 00:35:20.560
 I mean, I'm thinking so radical.

00:35:20.920 --> 00:35:22.980
 I'm doing so much stuff outside the box.

00:35:23.160 --> 00:35:29.920
 I'm looking at scripture and I'm reimagining what this means and how to do it in different contexts.

00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:32.880
 I guarantee I've effed it up somewhere.

00:35:33.400 --> 00:35:50.980
 But the heart of this is that by doing what we're doing – Susie, by doing what you're doing, by rebelling against this, my gosh, how many people over the past nine or ten years have taken steps of faith, have gone deeper in their relationship with Jesus?

00:35:51.600 --> 00:35:58.060
 Like, the footprint that you're leaving behind in this world through XP and all the ministry over the years is huge.

00:35:58.720 --> 00:36:07.360
 Like, we've got to acknowledge by doing something different, by doing this, we're reaching people that the buildings are not reaching.

00:36:07.860 --> 00:36:13.480
 I don't remember who said it, but a quote that I love is, if we do what we've always done, we'll get what we've always gotten.

00:36:14.760 --> 00:36:15.820
 And the reality is –

00:36:15.820 --> 00:36:16.640
 It's insanity, right?

00:36:16.740 --> 00:36:21.280
 The church today, like the results we're getting, we don't want to stay on that trajectory.

00:36:22.060 --> 00:36:25.840
 So if we just keep doing what we've always been doing, we're just going to keep getting what we've always been getting.

00:36:26.240 --> 00:36:28.140
 So we either do something or we die trying.

00:36:29.680 --> 00:36:29.800
 Yeah.

00:36:31.740 --> 00:36:33.180
 We're – it's interesting.

00:36:33.300 --> 00:36:36.300
 I'm seeing some comments in here about –

00:36:36.300 --> 00:36:41.960
 Some people say they're going to rock up the church with my AK-47 private plane.

00:36:42.100 --> 00:36:46.920
 Okay, maybe not that radical with the GTA, but at least in the video game, it's okay.

00:36:47.140 --> 00:36:48.480
 Don't do that in real life, please.

00:36:48.640 --> 00:36:51.680
 It does not – Jeff is not advocating for doing that in physical space.

00:36:52.620 --> 00:36:59.040
 But the idea of a metaverse church, like that is a – that is an untapped reality.

00:36:59.180 --> 00:36:59.640
 Yeah, for sure.

00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:03.560
 And I say reality in a very true word.

00:37:04.040 --> 00:37:08.540
 Like it is arguably one of the largest unreached people groups right now.

00:37:09.460 --> 00:37:11.080
 And to be honest, it is ripe.

00:37:11.700 --> 00:37:12.240
 It is literal.

00:37:12.340 --> 00:37:14.740
 I mean, they don't call it VR chat for no reason.

00:37:15.220 --> 00:37:17.140
 People want to talk in VR chat.

00:37:17.140 --> 00:37:18.340
 I actually had a friend of mine.

00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:21.860
 He shared Jesus over 2,000 times in virtual reality.

00:37:22.140 --> 00:37:22.380
 Wow.

00:37:22.380 --> 00:37:27.980
 Would go up to people in VR chat and just have – start a random conversation and start talking about Jesus.

00:37:28.600 --> 00:37:33.400
 And I asked him, I was like, how many times did you get F-bombed over the span of the years when you did this?

00:37:33.420 --> 00:37:34.000
 How many times?

00:37:34.580 --> 00:37:37.360
 And he's like, I didn't keep count, but not as many as I would have thought.

00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:39.500
 And he's like, how many relationships?

00:37:39.780 --> 00:37:44.160
 And he was still talking to people and still doing ministry and connecting.

00:37:44.640 --> 00:37:48.860
 Like there's – it's a relationship platform.

00:37:49.560 --> 00:37:59.420
 And what you're doing in World of Warcraft and streaming and Twitch and all of this, digital ministry effectively is building relationships.

00:38:00.080 --> 00:38:00.280
 Yeah.

00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:11.380
 Which is, to your point, it's a little countercultural to the idea of an influencer because an influencer does not necessarily build relationships.

00:38:11.640 --> 00:38:16.220
 An influencer is driving influence.

00:38:16.720 --> 00:38:19.540
 An influencer is trying to – and forgive me, Susie.

00:38:19.660 --> 00:38:20.680
 Like, help me here.

00:38:20.740 --> 00:38:21.600
 This is why I'm here.

00:38:21.780 --> 00:38:40.640
 I'm wrestling with this idea of an influencer is trying to bring influence unto themselves, but a relationship I'm seeing is more of somebody who is trying to give, somebody who's trying to contribute, somebody who's not collecting, but somebody who's releasing.

00:38:40.640 --> 00:38:48.700
 Do you have any words or any ideas or thoughts on this, maybe the tension between influencer and what we're talking about?

00:38:48.840 --> 00:38:49.720
 Like, what do you think?

00:38:49.860 --> 00:38:50.160
 Absolutely.

00:38:50.300 --> 00:38:59.320
 So I think – I think, one, I think sometimes the word influencer gets a lot of hate because I think people have a – I think we have a one-sided view sometimes of, like, what an influencer is.

00:38:59.580 --> 00:39:02.600
 And a fortune that is because I think it's been – it's been misused.

00:39:03.060 --> 00:39:07.740
 A lot of people definitely do use social media for the sole purpose of building their own platform.

00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:10.120
 The sole purpose of, I've seen what happens.

00:39:10.220 --> 00:39:10.860
 People can get rich.

00:39:10.920 --> 00:39:11.740
 I can get a lot of fame.

00:39:12.280 --> 00:39:13.800
 People build it for themselves.

00:39:14.320 --> 00:39:15.420
 That absolutely does happen.

00:39:16.040 --> 00:39:23.400
 But I think it's an improper use of the word because the reality, like, to truly influence – I mean, it can be done in a negative way.

00:39:23.900 --> 00:39:27.200
 But to influence, like, is the goal of the consumer in mind.

00:39:27.740 --> 00:39:30.100
 Like, to influence is to be giving.

00:39:30.260 --> 00:39:33.440
 Now, if you are giving something negative or positive, it's up to you.

00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:39.940
 But the – like, the art of influencing, like, shouldn't actually even have anything to do with the person who's influencing.

00:39:40.580 --> 00:39:43.300
 It should all be with the end goal of, like, the person in mind.

00:39:43.640 --> 00:39:44.540
 So, absolutely.

00:39:44.680 --> 00:39:46.820
 Do people use social media for selfish reasons?

00:39:47.020 --> 00:39:47.340
 Absolutely.

00:39:47.960 --> 00:39:56.860
 But, like, when I think of the role of an influencer, it is to step into the lives of the people who are watching your content and to give, to add value into their lives.

00:39:56.860 --> 00:40:12.000
 Whether you have a, like, you know, keenly defined message that you're trying to share, a way of thinking that you're trying to get into other people, a message you're trying to spread, it should be all about, like, what does the consumer, what does the audience, what does the community get out of it?

00:40:12.520 --> 00:40:17.040
 And I think sometimes we hate on the ID influence because we've seen it misused.

00:40:17.560 --> 00:40:20.320
 But the reality is if we hate on anything we've seen misused, we would just hate everything.

00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:21.580
 We would just write off –

00:40:21.580 --> 00:40:21.860
 Everything.

00:40:21.960 --> 00:40:23.440
 We would write off church because church is misused.

00:40:23.440 --> 00:40:24.940
 I've met some of those people, by the way.

00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:25.740
 They do exist.

00:40:25.960 --> 00:40:26.880
 And I think, like –

00:40:26.880 --> 00:40:27.220
 They're haters.

00:40:27.500 --> 00:40:31.160
 I think the platform of an influencer can be incredibly powerful if it's used well.

00:40:31.680 --> 00:40:34.380
 But, again, I think churches, we do this.

00:40:34.680 --> 00:40:38.040
 We see one thing not being done well, and we write off the whole thing.

00:40:38.960 --> 00:40:43.160
 And I think we can really redeem what it means to be an influencer if people would step into that role.

00:40:43.640 --> 00:40:49.520
 And that's why I'm so passionate about what you're doing because I'm like, we can help equip people to not keep doing it the wrong way.

00:40:49.620 --> 00:40:50.520
 So many others have done it.

00:40:50.920 --> 00:40:54.840
 But how do we use it the right way to make a positive difference and influence the world in a positive way?

00:40:55.060 --> 00:40:57.420
 Beautiful.

00:40:58.220 --> 00:41:01.480
 Making a positive difference and leaving the world in a positive way.

00:41:01.520 --> 00:41:06.020
 So you're using your influence in a positive scope.

00:41:06.460 --> 00:41:07.240
 It's interesting.

00:41:07.400 --> 00:41:11.040
 I've got Pastor – literally his name is Pastor Influence.

00:41:11.200 --> 00:41:11.980
 That's interesting.

00:41:11.980 --> 00:41:12.460
 He's on our staff.

00:41:12.460 --> 00:41:12.940
 Most times, sir.

00:41:13.100 --> 00:41:14.080
 That's our community pastor.

00:41:14.180 --> 00:41:15.200
 Yeah, he's got a quote.

00:41:15.660 --> 00:41:16.720
 Leadership is influence.

00:41:16.860 --> 00:41:18.080
 Nothing more, nothing less.

00:41:18.160 --> 00:41:18.680
 John Maxwell.

00:41:18.860 --> 00:41:19.540
 Very good.

00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:22.080
 Yeah, love me some John Maxwell.

00:41:22.360 --> 00:41:23.600
 That's really good.

00:41:24.060 --> 00:41:26.220
 So let me have this as a follow-up, Susie.

00:41:27.340 --> 00:41:29.140
 And, you know, I know you.

00:41:29.360 --> 00:41:31.320
 We've had lots of conversations.

00:41:33.040 --> 00:41:35.940
 You're using the – you're trying to do what you're doing for positive.

00:41:36.440 --> 00:41:43.780
 I also know as it being a guy who's trying to make money in doing ministry in this space, it doesn't – it's very hard.

00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:44.720
 Let's just say it that way.

00:41:45.200 --> 00:41:47.180
 I'm going to have the conversation.

00:41:47.300 --> 00:41:52.120
 I don't know if you have it publicly, but ain't nobody doing digital ministry and digital church to get rich.

00:41:52.120 --> 00:42:01.980
 Right now, it is pioneers get shot, settlers get rich, and, you know, guys like Susie and me in digital virtual space, it's not happening, right?

00:42:02.100 --> 00:42:10.720
 And so, you know, there's a little birdie on Susie's shoulder that's saying, you know, sign the big contract.

00:42:11.100 --> 00:42:16.100
 There's a little birdie that's saying, you know, get as many followers as possible.

00:42:16.340 --> 00:42:18.440
 Not share that influence with others.

00:42:18.440 --> 00:42:19.680
 Don't platform others.

00:42:20.180 --> 00:42:26.960
 Do it for yourself because, you know, building your castle is how you make money.

00:42:27.460 --> 00:42:31.500
 But what Susie's suggesting is actually not about castle.

00:42:31.680 --> 00:42:33.540
 It's more driven towards kingdom.

00:42:34.340 --> 00:42:38.500
 The treasures are not in this world but are in the next.

00:42:39.420 --> 00:42:41.580
 How do you balance the tension?

00:42:42.240 --> 00:42:44.740
 As a guy who's – I'll put words in your mouth.

00:42:44.920 --> 00:42:45.860
 That's struggling.

00:42:46.280 --> 00:42:51.040
 You're trying to figure out how to make ends meet, not only for you, but for a whole organization.

00:42:51.300 --> 00:42:52.240
 I feel that pain.

00:42:52.900 --> 00:42:55.920
 Like, how do you follow the tension?

00:42:56.200 --> 00:42:59.880
 What will you do and what will you not do?

00:43:00.020 --> 00:43:01.820
 Like, I've seen some – I'm watching on Twitch.

00:43:02.080 --> 00:43:03.340
 I've seen ads pop up.

00:43:03.640 --> 00:43:04.600
 I think that's great.

00:43:04.720 --> 00:43:06.040
 You know, no problem with that.

00:43:06.160 --> 00:43:10.740
 So, obviously, there are things that you can do trying to monetize.

00:43:10.940 --> 00:43:25.340
 From a practical standpoint, I'm just – I guess from philosophical and a practical, how do you dance that line around influence or building your God's kingdom and at the same time trying to build a castle?

00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:37.900
 Yeah, it's probably one of the hardest tensions back and forth over the years, especially as a pioneer, which is why I really hope to build something that other people can benefit off of without having to go through some of the things I've been through.

00:43:38.280 --> 00:43:40.820
 So, a little bit about my journey that was really difficult.

00:43:41.120 --> 00:43:46.880
 Like, I was one of, if not the first, like, openly Christian gaming content creator on Twitch.

00:43:47.260 --> 00:43:51.340
 There were other Christians at the time, for sure, but, you know, it wasn't something they talked about publicly.

00:43:51.620 --> 00:43:55.360
 And they weren't using their stream as, like, I want to help more people know about Jesus.

00:43:55.500 --> 00:43:57.340
 Like, that's the purpose of, like, me streaming here.

00:43:57.740 --> 00:44:02.100
 And so, when I was first starting, like, I had a lot of growth because I was a unicorn.

00:44:02.600 --> 00:44:05.260
 Like, here's, like, the only guy that exists on the planet doing this thing.

00:44:05.640 --> 00:44:09.260
 And so, all the people that believed in that mission, they all flocked to one place.

00:44:09.720 --> 00:44:15.260
 So, I'll be honest, like, after a few years of getting my name out there, like, I had a pretty decent amount of financial support.

00:44:15.600 --> 00:44:20.980
 Because for all these Christians who wanted to invest their money into this mission, there was only one place to put it.

00:44:21.580 --> 00:44:21.760
 Me.

00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:22.520
 Yeah.

00:44:22.640 --> 00:44:26.840
 So, early on, not at the very beginning, but once, you know, especially after I was in the Washington Post.

00:44:27.100 --> 00:44:27.480
 Word got out.

00:44:27.700 --> 00:44:28.280
 Word got out.

00:44:28.340 --> 00:44:28.440
 Yeah.

00:44:29.220 --> 00:44:31.080
 I'll be honest, I started doing pretty well for myself.

00:44:31.560 --> 00:44:33.120
 And that was great after all these years.

00:44:33.740 --> 00:44:38.900
 And then I had to wrestle with, like, am I going to hoard all this to myself and build my own life?

00:44:39.180 --> 00:44:41.840
 Or am I going to build the kingdom of God?

00:44:42.100 --> 00:44:51.980
 And so, as more and more people started becoming Christians who were also doing something similar, I really had to, like, sit down and, like, have an honest conversation with God.

00:44:51.980 --> 00:44:53.720
 And, like, God, help me to not be selfish.

00:44:54.040 --> 00:45:03.620
 Because I feel this tension of, like, if I start telling other people that there's more options out there, they might actually go there.

00:45:04.640 --> 00:45:06.600
 And they might actually go there.

00:45:06.860 --> 00:45:11.260
 Because I'm not naive enough to think that I'm the funniest, the best, the anything.

00:45:11.820 --> 00:45:14.300
 At one point, it's like, you're just the only option we got, brother.

00:45:14.620 --> 00:45:15.120
 You know what I mean?

00:45:15.120 --> 00:45:16.620
 Like, so we're here.

00:45:17.320 --> 00:45:21.240
 And I had to reach a point where, like, I've just, I've not come to build my kingdom.

00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:28.020
 Like, I've come to build the kingdom of God and to share and disperse amongst other people.

00:45:28.540 --> 00:45:35.720
 So, I'll be honest, when more Christians started doing it and I would promote them, I would watch my subscriber count go down.

00:45:36.500 --> 00:45:39.080
 Because I would watch people like, hey, Susie seems to be taken care of.

00:45:39.340 --> 00:45:41.540
 Let me take my $10, $20, $15 a month.

00:45:42.040 --> 00:45:43.260
 Let me give it to this guy instead.

00:45:44.020 --> 00:45:53.020
 And as more and more and more and more and more and more that happened, I just had to get along with God and be like, Lord, what's the level of sacrifice that you're, like, you're calling me to do?

00:45:53.360 --> 00:45:55.660
 To share what I've built with others.

00:45:56.480 --> 00:46:00.900
 And I think, honestly, I think that's one of the reasons why God has allowed me to last this long.

00:46:01.340 --> 00:46:03.020
 Because I've been in it for his kingdom.

00:46:03.140 --> 00:46:06.320
 If I had been in it for myself, I probably actually would have been shut down a long time ago.

00:46:06.800 --> 00:46:09.500
 But because I've continued to share, give it, it'll be given unto you.

00:46:10.180 --> 00:46:20.820
 So, because I've continued to share my influence, my platform, my viewers, and my income with other people and entities, I think God has blessed and honored that.

00:46:20.820 --> 00:46:22.920
 But it comes at massive sacrifice.

00:46:23.800 --> 00:46:28.960
 Like, we don't have to go into details, but my wife and I have sacrificed a lot to continue to do this for this long.

00:46:29.240 --> 00:46:34.080
 A lot of people have this illusion that I'm just rich and Susie does really well for himself.

00:46:34.680 --> 00:46:40.400
 I make, like, a third of the income today that I did, like, five years ago because all I did was stream all day.

00:46:40.840 --> 00:46:44.500
 But again, I was having, like, small impact on a huge group of people.

00:46:44.940 --> 00:46:51.480
 Today, I'm having a bigger impact on a smaller group of people, but at massive financial decrease to my own life.

00:46:52.120 --> 00:46:57.260
 But I've just decided, Lord, I'll serve you in the way you've wanted me to serve you at whatever cost.

00:46:57.460 --> 00:47:00.080
 It's up to everyone else what level of sacrifice that they can give.

00:47:00.140 --> 00:47:01.740
 I get, if you've got children or families or whatever.

00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:05.500
 But if you want to have a kingdom mindset, you have to have a sharing mindset.

00:47:05.860 --> 00:47:07.060
 And a lot of people don't want to share.

00:47:07.760 --> 00:47:08.900
 They just want to build for themselves.

00:47:10.900 --> 00:47:14.160
 Yeah, there's, I'm going to go non-biblical here with this.

00:47:14.320 --> 00:47:24.260
 Ronald Reagan once said, it's funny, I've got a Ronald Reagan Funko Pop right here, literally on my desk so I can grab it.

00:47:24.260 --> 00:47:25.880
 Because I use this analogy a lot.

00:47:26.660 --> 00:47:35.540
 Ronald Reagan, nice suit, once said, there's no limit to the amount of good one can do as long as he doesn't care who gets credit.

00:47:36.680 --> 00:47:43.360
 And that really, you know, resonated with me early on when I was building out the church digital.

00:47:43.360 --> 00:47:44.240
 Like, it was funny.

00:47:44.340 --> 00:47:53.420
 I can remember I had digital pastors, well-known, globally-recognized digital pastors tell me when I bought the church digital, they said, Jeff, that's a mistake.

00:47:54.260 --> 00:47:55.540
 Don't buy the church digital.

00:47:55.680 --> 00:48:01.740
 You should be building this under jeffreed.com and building it, you know, under my name.

00:48:02.340 --> 00:48:11.640
 And I always felt like to create, and the dream of what we're doing is a global digital movement.

00:48:11.760 --> 00:48:18.800
 Like, I had an open office this morning, and so I jumped in Google Meet and put in Discord and WhatsApp, hey, I'm here.

00:48:18.900 --> 00:48:20.940
 If anybody wants to come in and talk, I'm here.

00:48:21.480 --> 00:48:23.400
 And I had four people come in.

00:48:24.100 --> 00:48:27.660
 One was from the west coast of Florida, probably an hour and a half away from me.

00:48:28.020 --> 00:48:29.460
 One was in Nigeria.

00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:31.840
 One was from the southern Sudan.

00:48:32.340 --> 00:48:34.080
 And one was from Czechoslovakia.

00:48:34.600 --> 00:48:38.260
 And they're all talking about digital discipleship.

00:48:38.260 --> 00:48:46.880
 And I'm, you know, talking to them, and they're in, you know, different processes of going through the church digital's, you know, equipping systems.

00:48:47.100 --> 00:48:49.560
 And so, like, it's crazy exciting.

00:48:50.100 --> 00:48:55.260
 But I always had this vision that the church digital's going to be bigger than me.

00:48:55.460 --> 00:48:55.800
 Absolutely.

00:48:55.860 --> 00:48:59.320
 As a matter of fact, like, I wanted it to be bigger than me.

00:48:59.400 --> 00:49:06.560
 And in seasons where I probably, you know, should have paid myself more, I was like, hey, let's bring on some more people.

00:49:06.640 --> 00:49:08.660
 And, oh, my gosh, this guy's incredible.

00:49:08.900 --> 00:49:11.240
 Let's get him on for this and this and this and this.

00:49:11.240 --> 00:49:17.080
 And, you know, I look around and there's, and not that I'm, it was majority of it's, it's all bivocational.

00:49:17.380 --> 00:49:18.500
 Most of it's volunteer.

00:49:19.020 --> 00:49:22.320
 But it's, and everybody's making pennies in the grand scheme of things.

00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:26.280
 But there's like 15, 20 people that are involved in this thing.

00:49:26.280 --> 00:49:30.260
 Like, at a high leadership level, like, you've got responsibilities.

00:49:30.260 --> 00:49:32.860
 And if you don't do it, this all crashes and burns.

00:49:33.060 --> 00:49:33.140
 Yeah.

00:49:33.560 --> 00:49:42.680
 And so it's really fun, you know, in the background to see all the different pieces interacting as we're getting more and more out globally.

00:49:43.680 --> 00:49:44.000
 It does.

00:49:44.220 --> 00:49:45.180
 And I hesitate.

00:49:45.320 --> 00:49:49.400
 It's funny, Susie, when I, when I sent you this question, I was like, I don't know if this is too personal.

00:49:49.560 --> 00:49:50.320
 You said it was okay.

00:49:50.320 --> 00:49:58.760
 Like, it's, it's, it's weird for me to ask this question because, because it's like, I don't, I don't, I really want to know, but I don't mean anything by this, like rudely.

00:49:59.480 --> 00:50:01.700
 So the audience don't send hate mail.

00:50:02.180 --> 00:50:02.940
 Don't at me.

00:50:04.300 --> 00:50:10.200
 Is, is Susie, does XP go on without Susie?

00:50:10.600 --> 00:50:13.300
 Can Susie exist without XP?

00:50:13.840 --> 00:50:18.980
 Like, what is, what's the, the tension maybe between the two orgs that you've got at this point?

00:50:19.560 --> 00:50:21.980
 So from a, can one exist without the other?

00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:24.120
 It, there's definitely a lot that goes to that question.

00:50:24.160 --> 00:50:28.240
 I think ultimately the answer is yes, but it's, it requires some explanation.

00:50:28.240 --> 00:50:30.900
 So does my stream exist without XP church?

00:50:30.900 --> 00:50:32.480
 That one, I would say absolutely.

00:50:32.480 --> 00:50:32.840
 Yes.

00:50:33.480 --> 00:50:35.500
 First and foremost, it just existed first.

00:50:35.960 --> 00:50:40.400
 It also has significantly more of a larger following, larger reach.

00:50:40.800 --> 00:50:43.580
 And that's not because I think like I'm better than a church or anything.

00:50:43.840 --> 00:50:48.000
 It's just for the sole purpose of, I believe this principle, you will find it across all social media.

00:50:48.100 --> 00:50:49.020
 I give all of you a challenge.

00:50:49.380 --> 00:50:53.380
 Go look up the, the most famous church you could think of, and then go look up its pastor.

00:50:53.720 --> 00:50:57.580
 The pastor always has a larger social media following, unless he just doesn't have one.

00:50:58.000 --> 00:50:58.300
 Why?

00:50:58.420 --> 00:51:00.140
 Because people follow people, not organizations.

00:51:00.400 --> 00:51:00.900
 They just do.

00:51:01.300 --> 00:51:01.700
 Right.

00:51:01.920 --> 00:51:03.200
 Many of you, like, they just do.

00:51:03.200 --> 00:51:06.640
 You probably have no interest in following Coca-Cola on social media.

00:51:06.980 --> 00:51:12.680
 But if the CEO was like, hey, I'm going to show like behind the scenes of my life and like what it's like to run Coca-Cola.

00:51:13.020 --> 00:51:14.700
 You'd be like, oh, okay, well, that sounds a little interesting.

00:51:14.740 --> 00:51:15.380
 I'll probably follow that.

00:51:15.760 --> 00:51:16.660
 But you're not going to follow Coke.

00:51:17.160 --> 00:51:18.140
 Same principle applies.

00:51:18.280 --> 00:51:20.580
 People follow people, not normally organizations.

00:51:21.660 --> 00:51:24.740
 From the church, does XP Church exist without Susie?

00:51:25.100 --> 00:51:28.060
 I think at one point the answer would have been absolutely no.

00:51:28.460 --> 00:51:30.260
 And that was a failure on my own leadership.

00:51:31.160 --> 00:51:39.400
 To not understand the principle of reproducing myself enough to be able to sustain something that when I'm not there, it'll do well.

00:51:40.100 --> 00:51:56.340
 A big part of it also was I was so, like, it's tough sometimes to, instead of always wanting to utilize your own gifts, to then sometimes be like, how much do I sacrifice of my own gifts to then reproduce myself in someone else?

00:51:56.340 --> 00:52:13.140
 It's the age-old question of if a pastor has been preaching for 25 years and after 25 years finally gets really good at it, should he then use all of his time preaching or should then he use most of his time teaching other people and giving them practice to be able to preach and learn what he's learned?

00:52:14.240 --> 00:52:15.480
 It's that dichotomy.

00:52:15.660 --> 00:52:20.360
 And some people would say, well, I mean, it seems like a waste to finally get good and then, like, hardly ever do it.

00:52:20.660 --> 00:52:23.820
 Well, but then if he doesn't train other people, then he'll be the last one who's good at it.

00:52:24.120 --> 00:52:25.240
 It's like that dichotomy.

00:52:25.840 --> 00:52:29.420
 And early on, I was very much like, I feel like I've got a lock on this thing.

00:52:29.480 --> 00:52:30.240
 I'm doing well at it.

00:52:30.720 --> 00:52:32.580
 What a missed opportunity for me to not do a ton of it.

00:52:33.220 --> 00:52:34.780
 And again, the extremes.

00:52:35.240 --> 00:52:37.380
 It's not, let me do this all the time or not do it.

00:52:37.520 --> 00:52:40.860
 It's like, let's find the proper ratio of utilizing my gift, but then also training others.

00:52:41.360 --> 00:52:53.480
 And so in today's world, 2025, XP Church today, not even years past, I would say, I think that XP Church does survive without me, but just like any other organization, it doesn't survive without a leader, right?

00:52:53.980 --> 00:53:00.660
 So if like I just step out and someone can't step in to help with like strong leadership, then it's not even a unique situation.

00:53:00.660 --> 00:53:05.720
 I think it's just across the board, any organization where there's no leadership, then obviously things are going to begin to come or fall.

00:53:06.320 --> 00:53:09.440
 But that is currently the work that I am doing right now.

00:53:09.960 --> 00:53:24.340
 How can I find the right ratio of not just me doing what I feel like I've gotten good at, but how can I also make sure that I'm training my own teams, our own systems and structures that without me, like they just continue.

00:53:24.640 --> 00:53:28.380
 But with the caveat of like, but of course, like there does need to be a leader.

00:53:28.840 --> 00:53:33.160
 If no one has a leader to follow, you know, be leading direction, then everyone's going in different directions.

00:53:33.360 --> 00:53:37.000
 But I do think, I do think today more than ever, XP Church survives without me.

00:53:37.120 --> 00:53:46.580
 But years ago, I think I did a very, very, very poor job of making sure that, hey, if I'm not here anymore, like are the systems, the teams and their leaders well equipped?

00:53:47.060 --> 00:53:48.800
 And I wouldn't say to pick up without a hitch.

00:53:48.860 --> 00:53:53.820
 I don't think any organization picks up without a hitch, but can it maintain and do well in the future?

00:53:54.160 --> 00:53:56.340
 Today, I think we're getting closer than ever before.

00:53:56.480 --> 00:54:00.540
 I would say the answer is yes, but I think it's something because I took so long to start that.

00:54:01.220 --> 00:54:04.540
 It's not what I would want our church to be nine years.

00:54:05.880 --> 00:54:07.880
 Yeah, it's you're a little behind the eight ball.

00:54:07.980 --> 00:54:09.840
 Once again, you were you were pioneering.

00:54:09.940 --> 00:54:10.880
 Nobody was in this space.

00:54:10.940 --> 00:54:11.740
 Nobody was advising.

00:54:11.960 --> 00:54:12.740
 You're on your own.

00:54:12.800 --> 00:54:14.960
 And the majority of people thought you were a nut job.

00:54:15.040 --> 00:54:15.740
 Yeah, that's true.

00:54:15.860 --> 00:54:21.420
 And there are still a lot of people who think that you're a nut job, but there's probably a little more that are friendly to the idea.

00:54:22.260 --> 00:54:25.560
 You know, it's interesting nights at the nerd tables talking about Mac Lake.

00:54:25.820 --> 00:54:31.300
 You know, I've actually talked with Mac Lake a couple of times about this and leading in this in this state.

00:54:31.960 --> 00:54:43.100
 And he actually, Susie, would be a supporter of you in what you're doing and and releasing that that control and starting to platform and and bringing others.

00:54:43.100 --> 00:54:45.080
 And but there's always that this tension.

00:54:45.080 --> 00:54:51.500
 And I hear this any time with with individuals and organizations, digital missionaries, digital planners.

00:54:51.740 --> 00:54:56.940
 Well, it takes so much time to onboard and so much time to train.

00:54:57.160 --> 00:54:59.440
 It's just easier if I do it myself.

00:54:59.860 --> 00:55:02.920
 And that's well, let me ask you this, Susie.

00:55:03.000 --> 00:55:06.000
 Like what's what is just wrapping up here like that?

00:55:06.180 --> 00:55:07.740
 It's easier if I do it myself.

00:55:07.740 --> 00:55:11.300
 Like, how do you respond in situations like that?

00:55:11.520 --> 00:55:15.460
 What you know now, nine years later, how do you respond to that question or that statement?

00:55:15.760 --> 00:55:17.280
 I think two things come to mind with that question.

00:55:17.700 --> 00:55:20.420
 One, is it easier for you to do it now?

00:55:20.520 --> 00:55:22.060
 I think a lot of times the answer is yes.

00:55:22.100 --> 00:55:29.300
 But I think it's I think it's a short sighted mindset in the terms of one, for example, even if we just do some simple math, which I'm not great at, by the way.

00:55:29.300 --> 00:55:40.420
 But if you if there is a 20 minute task that you have to do every single week and it would take you three hours for, let's say, five hours to train someone or do that 20 minute task.

00:55:40.540 --> 00:55:42.740
 At first, that seems like it's not worth it.

00:55:42.740 --> 00:55:43.340
 I'll just do it.

00:55:43.680 --> 00:55:49.180
 But then if you would add that 20 minute task up for the next year, you'd be way beyond that five hour training period.

00:55:49.420 --> 00:55:59.740
 So it's a it's a short, short sighted mindset, not only for just the getting the actual job or role that you're done, but it's also a short mindset in terms of like building legacy.

00:56:00.520 --> 00:56:05.880
 And what I have always wanted from day one was to build legacy that would outlive me.

00:56:06.240 --> 00:56:09.660
 God forbid the day that when I'm done, XP Church is no more.

00:56:10.020 --> 00:56:12.840
 Obviously, my personal stream will be no more because it is literally my face.

00:56:12.840 --> 00:56:19.380
 But from a church kingdom ministry standpoint, I want to build something that outlives me.

00:56:19.460 --> 00:56:24.800
 And if I'm not willing to do the work to train and equip other people, it will not outlive me.

00:56:25.000 --> 00:56:26.800
 But that was the mistake earlier on.

00:56:26.920 --> 00:56:31.620
 I wanted it out to live me, but I wasn't doing the things to actually make sure that it would outlive me.

00:56:32.620 --> 00:56:34.920
 And so now there's been a whole shift in the way I live and operate.

00:56:35.100 --> 00:56:40.240
 But I think the mindset of like it just be easier to to do it myself.

00:56:40.240 --> 00:56:42.360
 It is easier, but easier doesn't mean better.

00:56:42.840 --> 00:56:44.240
 And it doesn't mean it lasts longer.

00:56:44.260 --> 00:56:45.120
 Yeah, that is so good.

00:56:46.580 --> 00:56:48.340
 Susie, you'll be doing this forever, man.

00:56:48.400 --> 00:56:48.940
 That's the goal, man.

00:56:48.940 --> 00:56:58.140
 We're a couple months away from AI, like taking your image and creating a virtual camera and some spam bot will be talking you.

00:56:58.500 --> 00:57:01.160
 And so, man, you'll be 90 years old.

00:57:01.240 --> 00:57:05.040
 You'll be the old man walking around calling everybody else, sir.

00:57:05.260 --> 00:57:06.540
 And I'm still running the show.

00:57:06.940 --> 00:57:11.280
 But hey, listen, it was a pleasure to hang out with you.

00:57:11.440 --> 00:57:12.500
 Can I invite your audience?

00:57:12.500 --> 00:57:13.840
 I didn't talk about this in advance.

00:57:14.200 --> 00:57:15.600
 Can I invite your audience to do something?

00:57:15.620 --> 00:57:16.300
 Tell them where to find you.

00:57:16.340 --> 00:57:16.600
 Yeah, yeah.

00:57:17.740 --> 00:57:18.220
 All right.

00:57:18.240 --> 00:57:20.060
 Hey, listen, I want to invite you all.

00:57:20.300 --> 00:57:22.280
 We're doing something over at the Church Digital.

00:57:22.540 --> 00:57:25.700
 And I would love for some Susie Peeps to join us in this.

00:57:25.920 --> 00:57:26.100
 Susie Peeps.

00:57:26.280 --> 00:57:27.500
 So there's a.

00:57:28.500 --> 00:57:28.700
 Huh?

00:57:28.980 --> 00:57:30.020
 That's the first Susie Peeps.

00:57:30.120 --> 00:57:30.360
 I never heard of that one.

00:57:30.360 --> 00:57:30.860
 Susie Peeps?

00:57:30.900 --> 00:57:31.200
 Yeah, yeah.

00:57:31.200 --> 00:57:31.640
 That's the first.

00:57:32.000 --> 00:57:32.360
 Okay.

00:57:32.820 --> 00:57:33.740
 Is that bad?

00:57:33.980 --> 00:57:34.480
 No, it just.

00:57:34.500 --> 00:57:35.060
 Is that the bad thing?

00:57:35.320 --> 00:57:37.240
 Out of all the things, my community has been called.

00:57:37.320 --> 00:57:39.180
 I think that's the last one.

00:57:40.480 --> 00:57:40.840
 Okay.

00:57:42.060 --> 00:57:42.520
 All right.

00:57:42.520 --> 00:57:43.820
 So here's what I want you to do.

00:57:44.940 --> 00:57:45.940
 Here's what we're doing.

00:57:45.940 --> 00:57:53.460
 We are stopping at 10.02 a.m. every day to stop and pray for the digital mission field

00:57:53.460 --> 00:57:54.500
 and digital missionaries.

00:57:54.880 --> 00:57:55.420
 Here's why.

00:57:55.460 --> 00:57:56.880
 You go to Luke 10.2.

00:57:57.420 --> 00:57:59.980
 The harvest is plentiful and the workers are few.

00:58:00.480 --> 00:58:03.900
 Stop and pray for the harvest and those that are working in the field.

00:58:04.440 --> 00:58:09.420
 And so we are literally, we're adopting that into real lives.

00:58:09.880 --> 00:58:15.400
 And so like I've got on my smartphone here, I've got an alarm that goes off at 10.02 a.m.

00:58:15.860 --> 00:58:17.700
 You can send me hate mail for this.

00:58:17.700 --> 00:58:19.840
 It's literally MC Hammer's pray.

00:58:20.160 --> 00:58:27.440
 The ringtone comes on at 10.02 and whatever I'm doing, any meeting, any conversation, any

00:58:27.440 --> 00:58:32.440
 writing, I'm not streaming at that time, but whatever I'm doing, I'm stopping and I'm

00:58:32.440 --> 00:58:38.220
 inviting whoever I'm with to join me and pray for the missionaries, for Susie and the

00:58:38.220 --> 00:58:41.780
 others that are doing work in digital and in virtual space.

00:58:42.120 --> 00:58:43.880
 And so I want to invite you to do that.

00:58:43.920 --> 00:58:44.780
 There's more information.

00:58:45.360 --> 00:58:51.240
 There's some resources and there's stuff over at thechurch.digital slash pray.

00:58:51.440 --> 00:58:53.060
 I don't know if any of my friends are on.

00:58:53.380 --> 00:58:54.660
 Chino Mage, I think, was on.

00:58:55.380 --> 00:58:56.540
 Tall Skinny Kiwi's on.

00:58:56.860 --> 00:59:01.520
 If any of you guys can type that in chat, thechurch.digital slash pray.

00:59:01.640 --> 00:59:02.240
 Thank you for that.

00:59:02.300 --> 00:59:03.100
 I appreciate that.

00:59:03.360 --> 00:59:04.540
 I forgot to log in.

00:59:04.660 --> 00:59:07.300
 And so like, I just, I don't want to take the time to do that now.

00:59:07.640 --> 00:59:11.540
 But it is, really, it's an opportunity.

00:59:11.880 --> 00:59:15.340
 Even if you're working in the mission field and you want to share a prayer request that

00:59:15.340 --> 00:59:21.960
 people can pray for you specifically on, there's an opportunity to do that on that page as well.

00:59:22.080 --> 00:59:23.980
 And so thechurch.digital slash pray.

00:59:24.340 --> 00:59:31.240
 Check that out and join the prayer team as we're praying for God to do things beyond what

00:59:31.240 --> 00:59:33.300
 we can do in digital and virtual space.

00:59:33.380 --> 00:59:33.520
 Amen.

00:59:34.940 --> 00:59:35.260
 Amen.

00:59:36.520 --> 00:59:37.000
 Love it.

00:59:37.500 --> 00:59:37.760
 Jeff.

00:59:37.940 --> 00:59:38.200
 All right.

00:59:38.240 --> 00:59:39.420
 So I guess I'm going to land a plane.

00:59:39.720 --> 00:59:41.500
 He's looking at me and I'm like, okay, I'm done.

00:59:42.000 --> 00:59:45.900
 And then he's like, he didn't say this, but he's giving me the look like, are you done?

00:59:46.000 --> 00:59:47.060
 And I was like, oh, that's right.

00:59:47.080 --> 00:59:52.280
 I actually have to like land a plane on this podcast because this is, this is my podcast.

00:59:52.480 --> 00:59:53.400
 This is not his podcast.

00:59:53.840 --> 01:00:00.760
 So for this podcast on somebody else's Twitch stream, we're going to wrap, uh, we're going

01:00:00.760 --> 01:00:01.320
 to land a plane.

01:00:01.420 --> 01:00:07.540
 This has been, uh, for Susie, Susie, any closing thoughts as we're leaving your stream for me

01:00:07.540 --> 01:00:09.140
 to end for you to come back to your stream?

01:00:09.300 --> 01:00:10.380
 Any closing thoughts?

01:00:10.540 --> 01:00:10.700
 Yeah.

01:00:10.740 --> 01:00:14.800
 If you guys want to ever be able to come hang out with me, I do do a live stream Tuesday

01:00:14.800 --> 01:00:19.380
 through Friday over at twitch.tv slash pastor Susie S O U Z Y.

01:00:19.540 --> 01:00:22.080
 Come hang out with me, but also come check out our church for gamers.

01:00:22.080 --> 01:00:24.940
 You can check everything out at xpchurch.com.

01:00:25.060 --> 01:00:28.440
 We have services on Saturday, both at one 30 and seven 30 PM Eastern.

01:00:28.780 --> 01:00:31.460
 And we'd love to have you stop by if you're interested at all in growing in your faith,

01:00:31.820 --> 01:00:33.900
 playing games from other gamers or tell your friends.

01:00:34.000 --> 01:00:37.080
 I know that everyone listening to this probably knows at least one gamer that would love to

01:00:37.080 --> 01:00:38.620
 have them come be a part of our church community for sure.

01:00:39.920 --> 01:00:40.320
 Yeah.

01:00:40.800 --> 01:00:42.420
 Use, use your influence for good.

01:00:42.500 --> 01:00:43.900
 Use your influence to pass on.

01:00:43.980 --> 01:00:46.360
 That was, that was wise words, my friends.

01:00:46.520 --> 01:00:47.860
 Thank you for that.

01:00:47.860 --> 01:00:54.560
 And so for Susie and, uh, the rest of the crew here on Twitch, uh, this is Jeff at the

01:00:54.560 --> 01:00:55.100
 church digital.

01:00:55.100 --> 01:00:58.340
 Thanks for hanging out here on the stream and we'll see you next time on the show.

01:00:58.560 --> 01:00:59.220
 Y'all have a good one.

01:01:01.020 --> 01:01:01.500
 All right.

01:01:01.540 --> 01:01:01.780
 All right.

01:01:01.780 --> 01:01:02.400
 Back at you.

01:01:03.060 --> 01:01:03.740
 Small silence.

01:01:03.840 --> 01:01:03.980
 Dude.

01:01:04.040 --> 01:01:05.320
 Thank you so much for the video, brother.

01:01:05.360 --> 01:01:06.060
 That was a lot of fun.

01:01:06.120 --> 01:01:06.840
 That was a blast, man.

01:01:06.840 --> 01:01:09.180
 And I can see a ton of people in the chat.

01:01:09.240 --> 01:01:09.820
 People loved it.

01:01:09.880 --> 01:01:13.580
 I know even a bad guy from Latin was just saying, I loved this interview and Jeff, it's

01:01:13.580 --> 01:01:14.840
 always a pleasure to get together and connect, man.

01:01:15.000 --> 01:01:15.900
 I really love talking with you.

01:01:16.380 --> 01:01:17.080
 Always, man.

01:01:17.200 --> 01:01:18.100
 It is, it is a pleasure.

01:01:18.400 --> 01:01:18.740
 Love you.

01:01:18.840 --> 01:01:22.120
 Anything I can do to help you, my friend, all you got to do is ask.

01:01:22.180 --> 01:01:22.400
 All right.

01:01:22.460 --> 01:01:22.780
 Absolutely.

01:01:22.900 --> 01:01:26.380
 Well, before you go, Jeff, give the people a chance to know, Hey, where can they follow

01:01:26.380 --> 01:01:26.560
 you?

01:01:26.580 --> 01:01:27.860
 Where can they find you and your content?

01:01:28.280 --> 01:01:30.320
 Give yourself all the shout outs before you get out for the day.

01:01:31.700 --> 01:01:31.980
 Yeah.

01:01:31.980 --> 01:01:36.680
 So, uh, I hang out a lot on discord and in WhatsApp.

01:01:37.140 --> 01:01:42.960
 If you're a discord user, uh, our, our discord is a discord.thechurch.digital.

01:01:43.140 --> 01:01:50.080
 That'll redirect you over discord.thechurch.digital WhatsApp, the same thing, whatsapp.thechurch.digital.

01:01:50.160 --> 01:01:54.040
 And so you can join us in discord or WhatsApp there.

01:01:54.400 --> 01:01:57.100
 Uh, to be honest, like it's embarrassingly.

01:01:57.100 --> 01:02:01.220
 So if we're a guy who's active in digital ministry, I really don't do much in social

01:02:01.220 --> 01:02:07.760
 media these days, I kind of just kind of paused and was like, you know, people are, are finding

01:02:07.760 --> 01:02:12.500
 me and those that are finding me, I'm going to, I'm going to connect with them in the community.

01:02:12.920 --> 01:02:18.020
 And, and so really the place that I pour myself into, if you're interested in what we're doing

01:02:18.020 --> 01:02:23.540
 on, on, I'd say, go follow the church digital social channels, which is whatever your platform

01:02:23.540 --> 01:02:26.020
 is on B the church digital.

01:02:26.520 --> 01:02:30.700
 And, uh, maybe the one platform that I really track is, uh, YouTube.

01:02:31.060 --> 01:02:37.860
 We do, uh, we stream there every Tuesday and, uh, all sorts of other things happen there

01:02:37.860 --> 01:02:42.480
 at youtube.com slash the church digital.

01:02:42.480 --> 01:02:46.600
 We are spinning up, uh, there is a Twitch channel for the church digital.

01:02:47.060 --> 01:02:53.100
 Uh, the team's going to be relaunching that, you know, we're not, we are not, I mean, this,

01:02:53.180 --> 01:02:53.900
 this may be a leak.

01:02:54.080 --> 01:02:57.520
 I, this may be the first time we're saying it outside of the church digital channels.

01:02:58.040 --> 01:02:58.400
 Yeah.

01:02:58.400 --> 01:02:58.800
 Here you go.

01:02:58.840 --> 01:02:59.400
 Here you go, man.

01:02:59.420 --> 01:03:00.040
 It's, this is it.

01:03:00.240 --> 01:03:02.220
 We are, we're not, we're not gamers.

01:03:02.320 --> 01:03:03.140
 Like I am not.

01:03:03.220 --> 01:03:07.000
 I, I, I, my kid, my kid is much more of a gamer than me.

01:03:07.000 --> 01:03:12.560
 By the way, if you're, if you're looking like the, my, um, my gamer tags are all deer

01:03:12.560 --> 01:03:15.140
 fetch, my name backwards, D E E R F F E J.

01:03:15.800 --> 01:03:21.760
 And so, you know, feel free to like find me on, on Xbox or PS5, but you'll be interacting

01:03:21.760 --> 01:03:26.340
 with my kid, not me because he uses my gamer tag to play with all his people.

01:03:26.920 --> 01:03:29.240
 Um, cause I, I just, I'm not a gamer anymore.

01:03:29.400 --> 01:03:31.940
 I have the controllers are way too complicated.

01:03:32.040 --> 01:03:32.980
 I can't, I can't do it.

01:03:33.260 --> 01:03:36.680
 I'm like, you know, when it was up, up, down, down, down, left, right, left, right, BA start

01:03:36.680 --> 01:03:39.000
 for Contra, that was how I succeeded.

01:03:39.140 --> 01:03:39.420
 Right.

01:03:39.480 --> 01:03:45.260
 It was just button mash and whatever cheat code you can find, but it's, it's a, we're long past

01:03:45.260 --> 01:03:45.840
 those days.

01:03:45.840 --> 01:03:49.280
 And, and, and my, my 50 year old friend can, can, uh, back me up on that.

01:03:49.340 --> 01:03:50.000
 Thanks, Captain Jack.

01:03:50.640 --> 01:03:57.000
 Um, but, um, we are, uh, we're leaning back into the, to the gamer community here a little

01:03:57.000 --> 01:03:57.420
 bit.

01:03:57.620 --> 01:03:57.740
 Let's go.

01:03:57.840 --> 01:04:03.220
 And, and really what we want to do is come alongside the XPs and some of the others.

01:04:03.260 --> 01:04:07.580
 Out there, we will, we want to see the churches in, in gaming space succeed.

01:04:08.040 --> 01:04:14.180
 Uh, and, and more than that, we want to, we want to help equip this next generation of,

01:04:14.180 --> 01:04:19.800
 of, of gaming churches, of digital pastors, of gaming pastors, of streamers, help them

01:04:19.800 --> 01:04:23.840
 understand what we talked about on this, that it's not about influence.

01:04:23.840 --> 01:04:30.500
 It's about giving instead of taking and, and, and how to use community to evangelize the

01:04:30.500 --> 01:04:34.520
 discipleship and start to equip people with their individual calling.

01:04:34.760 --> 01:04:35.680
 I'm being preaching again.

01:04:35.720 --> 01:04:36.400
 I'm sorry, man.

01:04:36.400 --> 01:04:43.280
 But there's a, um, I was in, I was in an interview today earlier where we were talking about how,

01:04:43.280 --> 01:04:47.260
 you know, a church 1.0 mentality, like web 1.0.

01:04:47.380 --> 01:04:47.600
 Yeah.

01:04:47.640 --> 01:04:52.400
 It's all about getting your information on the webpage and pushing people to go to the physical

01:04:52.400 --> 01:04:54.220
 building to get disciples, discipled.

01:04:54.220 --> 01:05:00.960
 And so web 1.0 mentality was getting church organizations to have their own.com to drive

01:05:00.960 --> 01:05:01.740
 people to buildings.

01:05:02.000 --> 01:05:02.080
 Yeah.

01:05:02.240 --> 01:05:02.640
 Web 1.

01:05:02.840 --> 01:05:08.300
 Web 2.0 was, okay, let's start to equip other people with social media.

01:05:09.340 --> 01:05:09.580
 Yeah.

01:05:09.620 --> 01:05:09.840
 Okay.

01:05:09.840 --> 01:05:15.640
 You can talk about God, but we'd rather you talk about the church to drive people into the

01:05:15.640 --> 01:05:16.260
 church building.

01:05:16.400 --> 01:05:22.660
 So web 1.0 is organizationally us talking about God, the organization driving into the building.

01:05:22.820 --> 01:05:30.080
 Web 2.0 was individuals, the church equipping others with social media and graphics to invite

01:05:30.080 --> 01:05:31.220
 others to go to the building.

01:05:31.760 --> 01:05:37.400
 But web 3.0 is where it all goes to crap because web 3.0 is now about digital community.

01:05:37.880 --> 01:05:41.480
 We don't need the church buildings to do discipleship.

01:05:41.740 --> 01:05:42.020
 No, I don't.

01:05:42.080 --> 01:05:46.580
 And so the mentality where we're going with web 3.0, it's much more decentralized.

01:05:47.340 --> 01:05:52.580
 It's, it's not what can you do for the church by getting people into the church building?

01:05:52.960 --> 01:05:58.680
 What it needs to be is what can the church do to help you in the ministry that God's called

01:05:58.680 --> 01:05:59.320
 you to be.

01:05:59.680 --> 01:06:05.920
 And that's where we want to come alongside and help you people that are hanging out with

01:06:05.920 --> 01:06:11.680
 Susie, you gamers, you Christians try to figure out what God is calling you to do.

01:06:11.680 --> 01:06:17.280
 And I believe there are, I mean, Susie's not in jest where, okay, there's been a lot more

01:06:17.280 --> 01:06:22.020
 gamer churches now in gaming ministries now than there were a decade ago.

01:06:22.160 --> 01:06:28.240
 But what's the percentage of, of gamers right now that are active in those minuscule.

01:06:28.380 --> 01:06:29.400
 We got over 3 billion gamers worldwide.

01:06:29.400 --> 01:06:30.400
 A fraction of a fraction.

01:06:30.720 --> 01:06:32.860
 It's not a, it's 0.00001%.

01:06:32.860 --> 01:06:39.620
 It's one of the largest untapped, you know, we, we, we talked about how digital was an unreached

01:06:39.620 --> 01:06:40.400
 people group.

01:06:40.860 --> 01:06:46.660
 And, um, you know, a gaming is even a, a, a very high sub subcategory substandard of that.

01:06:47.380 --> 01:06:55.420
 So like the, you know, literally loop 10 to, uh, the harvest is plentiful, but the workers

01:06:55.420 --> 01:06:55.880
 are few.

01:06:56.240 --> 01:07:01.460
 And so beyond the lookout for us in Twitch, beyond the lookout in discord, if you know

01:07:01.460 --> 01:07:05.520
 who flat cap is, he's working with us and kind of heading up that charge.

01:07:05.520 --> 01:07:10.940
 So, you know, look for him or hang out, ask, uh, ask, uh, Chino, uh, some of this stuff

01:07:10.940 --> 01:07:13.840
 and, uh, let's get you connected as we're moving forward.

01:07:14.040 --> 01:07:15.900
 We're not replacing Susie.

01:07:16.380 --> 01:07:17.780
 We are not a church.

01:07:18.180 --> 01:07:22.260
 We are an organization that wants to see Susie succeed.

01:07:22.260 --> 01:07:24.500
 So the next generation can succeed as well.

01:07:24.680 --> 01:07:29.380
 And so if you're interested in, in doing something different to reach someone different, come

01:07:29.380 --> 01:07:34.760
 hang out, but don't leave Susie send Susie your, your, uh, your five and 10, so you can

01:07:34.760 --> 01:07:35.640
 keep doing what he's doing.

01:07:36.480 --> 01:07:37.800
 Jeff, it's been a pleasure, my friend.

01:07:37.880 --> 01:07:38.260
 I love you.

01:07:38.560 --> 01:07:40.120
 And of course, if you ever need anything, you feel free to reach out.

01:07:40.220 --> 01:07:40.680
 We'll talk soon.

01:07:41.480 --> 01:07:41.800
 Awesome.