WEBVTT 00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:02.400 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. 00:00:03.360 --> 00:00:07.260 Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the Church. 00:00:07.600 --> 00:00:11.040 But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. 00:00:11.680 --> 00:00:13.300 Is disciple-making possible digitally? 00:00:13.780 --> 00:00:15.720 How should we approach the digital mission field? 00:00:16.020 --> 00:00:18.620 Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? 00:00:19.060 --> 00:00:22.840 Oh, and where does the metaverse and artificial intelligence fit into all of this? 00:00:23.680 --> 00:00:25.840 Whether you're a big or small church, 00:00:25.840 --> 00:00:30.660 the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, 00:00:30.980 --> 00:00:32.540 digitally and physically. 00:00:33.040 --> 00:00:34.680 And now here's your host, Jeff Reed. 00:00:35.120 --> 00:00:37.100 All right, hey everybody, Jeff with the Church Digital. 00:00:37.300 --> 00:00:39.380 I am excited about this episode. 00:00:39.540 --> 00:00:40.700 I love this conversation. 00:00:41.520 --> 00:00:44.860 Sat down, actually a good friend of mine on the board of directors, 00:00:45.240 --> 00:00:51.040 founder of Digital Mission Project, Jesse Carbo, reached out. 00:00:51.160 --> 00:00:52.260 You know, he's here in Miami. 00:00:53.220 --> 00:00:55.980 Jumped online with him a bunch and we're constantly texting each other, 00:00:56.060 --> 00:01:00.300 probably have coffee with him, breakfast maybe once or twice a month every couple weeks, 00:01:00.380 --> 00:01:03.340 just to, you know, catch up and hold each other accountable. 00:01:03.560 --> 00:01:06.160 But sat down, Jesse texted me a while back. 00:01:06.220 --> 00:01:10.540 He's like, hey, how does digital fit into incarnational ministry? 00:01:11.480 --> 00:01:16.440 And my response back was, how do you define incarnational ministry? 00:01:17.180 --> 00:01:19.560 And he replied, how do you define digital? 00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:22.640 And so, like, it was a really interesting conversation. 00:01:22.740 --> 00:01:25.780 We ended up jumping here, did a quick recording. 00:01:25.880 --> 00:01:26.720 Actually, it was not quick. 00:01:26.780 --> 00:01:33.520 It was a really good conversation on the role of digital with incarnational ministry. 00:01:33.520 --> 00:01:38.600 And maybe the missed opportunities of incarnational ministry. 00:01:38.600 --> 00:01:44.100 One, missing the understanding of digital community. 00:01:44.840 --> 00:01:52.500 And two, missing the opportunity to use digital to build trust and establish relationships. 00:01:53.260 --> 00:01:55.500 And so, it was really interesting. 00:01:56.260 --> 00:02:00.480 We put together some things in this conversation that, walking into it, I hadn't even put together. 00:02:00.620 --> 00:02:02.680 Like, I learned some stuff from Jesse. 00:02:02.780 --> 00:02:05.340 And Jesse's like, oh my gosh, he was learning stuff from that. 00:02:05.420 --> 00:02:12.740 And so, really, it's a difference been on Web 1, Web 2, and Web 3 that I hadn't started. 00:02:13.100 --> 00:02:14.320 And he kind of finished it off. 00:02:14.360 --> 00:02:17.020 And I was like, oh my gosh, this is really, really good. 00:02:17.660 --> 00:02:23.980 So, if you've ever been challenged on what's the role of digital in incarnational ministry, listen to this conversation. 00:02:23.980 --> 00:02:30.840 We've got myself, Jeff, with the Church Digital, and Jesse Carbo, founder of the Digital Missions Project. 00:02:31.140 --> 00:02:34.100 And by the way, he's on the Board of Directors for the Church Digital. 00:02:34.520 --> 00:02:42.900 In a conversation, you know, I'm calling here, what is the role of digital in incarnational ministry? 00:02:43.120 --> 00:02:43.740 Tongue twister there. 00:02:43.860 --> 00:02:45.380 All right, everybody, here you go. 00:02:45.380 --> 00:02:52.900 So, I was invited to write an article about how digital plays a role in incarnational mission. 00:02:53.980 --> 00:02:56.780 So, there is an organization. 00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:00.220 You're familiar with the Gospel Coalition? 00:03:00.760 --> 00:03:01.020 Sure. 00:03:01.060 --> 00:03:01.800 A lot of people are familiar. 00:03:02.100 --> 00:03:03.120 Very well-known. 00:03:05.100 --> 00:03:05.760 They don't like me. 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:10.340 Well, maybe, they probably don't like a lot of people. 00:03:10.540 --> 00:03:17.740 They're very, Gospel Coalition tends to be very theologically narrow. 00:03:18.300 --> 00:03:18.520 Yes. 00:03:19.100 --> 00:03:36.440 Even though I personally might identify with that theological narrowness, practically the way that it fleshes itself out is like, if you don't, you know, it's the typical, like, if you don't look like us, dress like us, you know, they're very... 00:03:36.440 --> 00:03:37.540 It's black and white. 00:03:37.620 --> 00:03:38.160 It's not gray. 00:03:39.580 --> 00:03:40.320 Lithic in there. 00:03:40.440 --> 00:03:40.920 Yeah, exactly. 00:03:41.500 --> 00:03:41.980 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:03:41.980 --> 00:03:42.560 Yeah, yeah. 00:03:43.040 --> 00:04:04.380 Now, so there's a similar organization, but I would say in another camp across the field called Missio Alliance, where they are also theologically rooted, but I would say they're a little more broad in their willingness to collaborate and work with. 00:04:04.380 --> 00:04:11.000 They're more ecumenical, let's put it that way, right, where Gospel Coalition is less ecumenical, Missio Alliance would be more ecumenical. 00:04:11.120 --> 00:04:18.080 But one of the distinctives of the Missio Alliance is this idea of incarnational mission. 00:04:18.580 --> 00:04:34.380 One way I'll do, and I have friends in both camps, you know, and so, like, my friends at Missio Alliance would be what I would consider social justice warriors, and that's a good thing. 00:04:34.460 --> 00:04:45.260 I don't, I'm not saying that in a negative way, whereas my friends at Gospel Coalition are more like theological, you know, pureness, purity warriors, you know. 00:04:45.260 --> 00:04:48.780 Yeah, academia versus practical, a little bit. 00:04:49.040 --> 00:04:53.300 Yeah, they both, they both want the centrality of the Gospel for all of life. 00:04:53.600 --> 00:05:01.480 Like, they both would talk to, like, I think some commonality for them would be, like, Tim Keller and Redeemer City to City and the stuff that comes out of there. 00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:15.400 Tim Keller's, like, obviously one of the founding members of Gospel Coalition, but he's also, Tim Keller was known to be a big proponent of social justice and its implications of the Gospel and how. 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:25.660 And out of that comes, like, in this, like, need to really flesh the Gospel out for everyday life, it looks like moving and being like Jesus. 00:05:26.340 --> 00:05:29.140 Jesus moved into our neighborhood, right? 00:05:29.220 --> 00:05:31.500 He stepped down from heaven, came to earth. 00:05:31.500 --> 00:05:41.820 He moved into the hood of earth and he basically said, like, I'm here in the flesh to do kingdom building, kingdom renewal work. 00:05:42.500 --> 00:05:52.900 And so that's the concept behind incarnational mission is that it's people in the flesh moving into neighborhoods to do kingdom renewal work. 00:05:52.900 --> 00:05:57.360 So then the question becomes, well, how does digital fit into all that? 00:05:57.440 --> 00:06:01.580 Because that doesn't feel like, you know, that feels like avoiding the neighborhood. 00:06:01.840 --> 00:06:03.580 It feels like staying away from the neighborhood. 00:06:03.900 --> 00:06:05.740 How do you reconcile? 00:06:06.620 --> 00:06:17.040 And so Lisa Watson, who is actually from Miami and we're friends from back in the past and, you know, so she's the director for Missio Alliance now. 00:06:17.040 --> 00:06:26.760 And we were talking and they've got a big conference coming up in D.C. next month in March and Digital Missions Project is going to sponsor a little bit. 00:06:26.920 --> 00:06:35.580 We're just a small little sponsor of the conference, but but we, you know, we briefly had a conversation about digital and I asked her, I was like, where do you address this? 00:06:35.580 --> 00:06:46.980 Where do you talk about because every person, I mean, even Missio Alliance, the fact that they even have a website and they publish articles on their website, that's digital. 00:06:48.060 --> 00:06:54.420 And they're doing Zoom calls, they do workshops, they do webinars, that's digital what. 00:06:54.900 --> 00:06:58.340 And so she she was like, yeah, that's a good point. 00:06:59.100 --> 00:07:05.220 And she challenged me, she says, would you be interested in writing an article about that and reconciling, you know, showing us how you might. 00:07:05.220 --> 00:07:07.260 Yeah, yeah, reconcile. 00:07:07.260 --> 00:07:16.820 So before I put pen to paper, you know, proverbially pen to paper, let me tell you my secrets so that you can take credit for it while writing the article. 00:07:16.940 --> 00:07:18.060 That's that's basically what you're saying. 00:07:18.740 --> 00:07:25.620 Well, it could be the article could be Jeffrey and Jesse Carbo. 00:07:25.900 --> 00:07:26.780 OK, all right. 00:07:26.780 --> 00:07:35.060 But, you know, it could be it could be I have no I have no no problem. 00:07:35.580 --> 00:07:41.100 You know, it could be something that, you know, you and I have this conversation and then we let AI kind of summarize it and rewrite it for us. 00:07:41.100 --> 00:07:42.100 Yeah, totally. I love that. 00:07:42.100 --> 00:07:49.740 We we said we submitted as like you and I wrote the article and, you know, but but I do think I do think that it's a. 00:07:51.100 --> 00:07:54.700 It is a very important conversation because I would. 00:07:55.700 --> 00:08:00.420 Align myself with the concept of incarnational mission. 00:08:01.300 --> 00:08:03.740 I'm a huge proponent of. 00:08:04.540 --> 00:08:10.380 So even in my days when I train church planners through Redeemer City to City, I do not love. 00:08:10.620 --> 00:08:15.780 Now, I'm not I'm not like against or opposed, but I don't love. 00:08:16.540 --> 00:08:17.540 I don't know if I'm not a person. 00:08:17.540 --> 00:08:18.540 I don't know if I'm not a person. 00:08:18.540 --> 00:08:19.540 I don't know if I'm not a person. 00:08:19.540 --> 00:08:20.540 I don't know if I'm not a person. 00:08:20.540 --> 00:08:21.540 I don't know if I'm not a person. 00:08:21.540 --> 00:08:22.540 I don't know if I'm not a person. 00:08:22.540 --> 00:08:23.540 I don't know if I'm not a person. 00:08:23.540 --> 00:08:24.540 I don't know if I'm not a person. 00:08:24.540 --> 00:08:25.540 I don't know if I'm not a person. 00:08:25.540 --> 00:08:26.540 I don't know if I'm not a person. 00:08:26.540 --> 00:08:27.540 I don't know if I'm not a person. 00:08:27.540 --> 00:08:28.540 I don't know if I'm not a person. 00:08:28.540 --> 00:08:29.540 I don't know if I'm not a person. 00:08:29.540 --> 00:08:30.540 I don't know if I'm not a person. 00:08:30.540 --> 00:08:31.540 I don't know if I'm not a person. 00:08:31.540 --> 00:08:32.540 I don't know if I'm not a person. 00:08:32.540 --> 00:08:40.540 One of the challenges for this church whenever they decide to get a new senior pastor is will that new senior pastor, will he meet the neighbors? 00:08:40.540 --> 00:08:41.540 Yeah. 00:08:41.540 --> 00:08:42.540 People who live in the home. 00:08:42.540 --> 00:08:47.540 Yeah, we'll get in the office and meet the neighbors of the people who literally live across the street. 00:08:47.540 --> 00:08:58.540 Like every morning, there's about 25 people around this church property that they get in their car and they see the church building, but they don't know the people of this church and the church doesn't know them. 00:08:58.540 --> 00:08:59.540 Yeah. 00:08:59.540 --> 00:09:07.540 You know, and so incarnational mission to me is really important for healthy. 00:09:07.540 --> 00:09:10.540 But then but then you have this reality of like digital. 00:09:10.540 --> 00:09:15.540 And so, yeah, so that's the conversation is like, how does that play into it? 00:09:15.540 --> 00:09:16.540 So, yeah. 00:09:16.540 --> 00:09:23.540 Yeah, there's a there's a philosophy that I stole. 00:09:23.540 --> 00:09:28.540 I adapted it from Saddleback online to offline. 00:09:28.540 --> 00:09:32.540 It's based on James 122, the gospel that we hear. 00:09:32.540 --> 00:09:36.540 And I'm paraphrasing here, the gospel that we hear in our online world. 00:09:36.540 --> 00:09:42.540 It has to influence our once again, paraphrasing our offline relationships. 00:09:42.540 --> 00:09:46.540 Otherwise, all we're doing is creating consumers. 00:09:46.540 --> 00:09:59.540 And so all the all the energy that goes into, you know, creating disciples digitally, it there has to be a metric and a movement in the physical space. 00:09:59.540 --> 00:10:02.540 Otherwise, we're consuming a product. 00:10:02.540 --> 00:10:08.540 We have bifurcated lives where we're we're one person physically and we're another person digitally. 00:10:08.540 --> 00:10:17.540 And, you know, if I'm you know, I used to tell the story like if I'm verbally abusive to my wife, but you know, I'm posting Bible verses on my Facebook. 00:10:17.540 --> 00:10:22.540 Well, that still makes me a very bad person for for being verbally abusive to my wife. 00:10:22.540 --> 00:10:27.540 And so, you know, at a bifurcated level, we have to be consistent all the way through. 00:10:27.540 --> 00:10:38.540 And so if we're if we're actively making disciples digitally, there should be some level of the fruits of the spirit that are being shown physically. 00:10:38.540 --> 00:10:41.540 Now, I would back up a little bit. 00:10:41.540 --> 00:10:44.540 You're talking about, well, you know, website and Zoom. 00:10:44.540 --> 00:10:47.540 And so there's there's different levels of engagement towards digital. 00:10:47.540 --> 00:10:49.540 I almost would roll this out. 00:10:49.540 --> 00:10:54.540 And this may be a stretch, but I would talk about Web one, Web two, Web three. 00:10:54.540 --> 00:11:00.540 Actually, I've written a couple of articles on this where, you know, Web one was the information age. 00:11:00.540 --> 00:11:04.540 Everybody's putting every piece of Internet information on the Internet. 00:11:04.540 --> 00:11:06.540 You can Google, you know, stuff. 00:11:06.540 --> 00:11:07.540 You know, the atlases are dead. 00:11:07.540 --> 00:11:09.540 The encyclopedias are dead. 00:11:09.540 --> 00:11:10.540 It's now called Google. 00:11:10.540 --> 00:11:14.540 And so all that information is on a Web page somewhere. 00:11:14.540 --> 00:11:23.540 And so as as a result of that, you know, a church putting a Web site up that's got like the the street address and the service times. 00:11:23.540 --> 00:11:44.540 Well, that's a that's a Web one approach digitally, because what you're trying to do is drive people into the physical building for discipleship, for evangelism, for equipping like you have no value of digital other than you're just trying to get people into the building. 00:11:44.540 --> 00:11:46.540 That's that's Web one. 00:11:46.540 --> 00:11:47.540 Web two. 00:11:47.540 --> 00:11:49.540 You know, it's more of the social media. 00:11:49.540 --> 00:11:54.540 That's that's that age where it's all about communication and dialogue. 00:11:54.540 --> 00:11:58.540 And so this is where, you know, the Facebook videos come in. 00:11:58.540 --> 00:12:00.540 People are now chatting at each other. 00:12:00.540 --> 00:12:02.540 And I would argue what you're talking about, Zoom. 00:12:02.540 --> 00:12:05.540 OK, you know, like you and I mean, we're in Miami. 00:12:05.540 --> 00:12:08.540 You and I could be together right at this moment. 00:12:08.540 --> 00:12:10.540 We're 20 minutes apart from each other. 00:12:10.540 --> 00:12:19.540 And so we could we could meet over at Baptist Hospital on 88th Street, which is pretty much equally equidistant from where we are and have this conversation face to face. 00:12:19.540 --> 00:12:26.540 But instead, we're utilizing technology to do that because it's more convenient for us in this moment. 00:12:26.540 --> 00:12:29.540 And so that's recognizing Web two. 00:12:29.540 --> 00:12:36.540 And at a church perspective, I can use some of this stuff for I can use for equipping. 00:12:36.540 --> 00:12:49.540 But the heart is, is we still want to see people in the physical building like Web two is not recognizing digital community as much as it is digital communication. 00:12:49.540 --> 00:12:56.540 And so we're still trying to get people into the physical building Web three, I would argue, is more of an immersive. 00:12:56.540 --> 00:12:59.540 It's more of and this is where virtual reality and some of this comes in. 00:12:59.540 --> 00:13:06.540 But even the heart of virtual reality and the heart of the metaverse is all about community and in recognizing community. 00:13:06.540 --> 00:13:18.540 And this is what, you know, to the church digital, the drum that we're banging is, hey, recognize digital community and its effectiveness to to connect with people for evangelism, for discipleship. 00:13:18.540 --> 00:13:27.540 And if relationships stay digital, it's OK now that does challenge a little bit of what you're talking about. 00:13:27.540 --> 00:13:44.540 The the flip side that I would say, though, is, is that even if we have a Web three approach, if we are just living our Christian discipleship lives in digital environments and people are not seeing the fruit of that in physical space. 00:13:44.540 --> 00:13:49.540 That's a bad thing. Like we are we're bifurcated. 00:13:49.540 --> 00:13:53.540 We're torn. We're not living the life that God's called us to be. 00:13:53.540 --> 00:14:01.540 Just like if I was at home doing one thing in the workplace doing another, that would be bifurcated in itself. 00:14:01.540 --> 00:14:06.540 We've got to be consistent all the way through. Is this resonating at all or what do you think in here? 00:14:06.540 --> 00:14:09.540 Yeah. Yeah. And just for the sake of. 00:14:09.540 --> 00:14:15.540 For the recording, so that if we use AI to help us write the article, can you go back? 00:14:15.540 --> 00:14:18.540 You shared that passage. You said it was James one twenty two. 00:14:18.540 --> 00:14:25.540 James one twenty two in the NIV roughly the the I'm sorry. 00:14:25.540 --> 00:14:28.540 The I'm sorry. Don't don't just be. Oh, my gosh. 00:14:28.540 --> 00:14:30.540 You asked me to do it. I was in my rhythm says. 00:14:30.540 --> 00:14:31.540 No, it's fine. It's fine. 00:14:31.540 --> 00:14:34.540 Here's of the word. And so deceive yourself. 00:14:34.540 --> 00:14:37.540 Do what it says. That's James one twenty two. 00:14:37.540 --> 00:14:42.540 And so I would paraphrase it. Don't just be hearers of the word online. 00:14:42.540 --> 00:14:49.540 And so deceive yourselves. Do what it says in the physical world like. 00:14:49.540 --> 00:14:52.540 And that's what I'm saying. Like, it's not about two lives. 00:14:52.540 --> 00:14:57.540 It's about one life that can't exist in two parallels. 00:14:57.540 --> 00:15:01.540 We need to be discipled physically as well as digitally. 00:15:01.540 --> 00:15:20.540 So maybe we can. Let's establish what do we mean when we say discipleship, because then if we can establish the definition of what we mean by what we say discipleship, then we can talk about is discipleship even possible digitally speaking. 00:15:20.540 --> 00:15:30.540 Right. So. So my personal opinion is that discipleship and even according to this passage, discipleship is not just about consuming knowledge. 00:15:30.540 --> 00:15:35.540 Knowledge or having possession of knowledge. Right. 00:15:35.540 --> 00:15:54.540 And there is a there is a cultural norm, if you will, in the American church that the more Bible, you know, the more spiritual information you have, the more dare I say, holy you are or the better Christian you are. 00:15:54.540 --> 00:15:58.540 But discipleship ultimately is about obedience. Right. 00:15:58.540 --> 00:16:06.540 Right. Disciple like like develop making disciples is about leading them on a journey to obey and live the way of Jesus. 00:16:06.540 --> 00:16:17.540 Sure. Right. Which is what I think. So then the question becomes, if that's what discipleship is, how do we help people follow, obey and live the way of Jesus? 00:16:17.540 --> 00:16:18.540 And then can that happen in a digital context? 00:16:18.540 --> 00:16:23.540 Then can that happen in a digital context? 00:16:23.540 --> 00:16:35.540 A good example would be there's a young man who was a former student of mine when I was a teacher many, many years ago who lives six hours away from me. 00:16:35.540 --> 00:16:42.540 I entered into a discipleship relationship with him where I am helping him live and follow the way of Jesus. 00:16:42.540 --> 00:16:55.540 But a lot of it is done through text message, Zoom calls, phone calls, mainly digital means because we don't live in the same community. Right. 00:16:55.540 --> 00:17:01.540 So then that's the question there. So my opinion is, yes, discipleship. 00:17:01.540 --> 00:17:08.540 Assuming that's the definition of discipleship, you know, helping people live and follow the way of Jesus can happen in a digital context. Right. 00:17:08.540 --> 00:17:11.540 But then what I heard you say earlier was. 00:17:11.540 --> 00:17:18.540 That that and I also would ascribe to what Saddleback and Jay Crander wrote in his book is that. 00:17:18.540 --> 00:17:28.540 If it's not impacting the daily life, if it's not impacting the real world, in person, human side of, you know, something's missing. 00:17:28.540 --> 00:17:30.540 So anyways, go ahead and respond to that. Yeah. 00:17:30.540 --> 00:17:33.540 Well, I mean, it's it's there's you're you're right on both sides. 00:17:33.540 --> 00:17:42.540 Like you can disciple someone digitally like, OK, so in your your three points, essentially obey, follow Jesus. 00:17:42.540 --> 00:17:49.540 Not not a not a not an informational discipleship, but an active discipleship is what you're saying. 00:17:50.540 --> 00:17:52.540 You can you can do that digitally. 00:17:52.540 --> 00:18:01.540 Like, I mean, there are people that that I'm discipling that literally are on other continents, like people I've never met. 00:18:01.540 --> 00:18:08.540 And I have and I have a five year, six year relationship with them via platforms like WhatsApp. 00:18:08.540 --> 00:18:21.540 As a matter of fact, just last night I was I was WhatsApp being a guy and celebrating some some major things that he's doing and and working with him now towards discipling like a whole bunch of other people that that are in his country. 00:18:21.540 --> 00:18:26.540 And so there is opportunities to do that that digitally. 00:18:26.540 --> 00:18:31.540 Now, if if he and I and so, yes, you can extend discipleship. 00:18:31.540 --> 00:18:35.540 I would say that that happens best in community. 00:18:35.540 --> 00:18:43.540 And this is where we move from the Web 2.0 mindset to 3.0 mindset. Web 2.0 is we're going to talk to you. 00:18:43.540 --> 00:18:48.540 But to disciple, you need to come to our physical space. 00:18:48.540 --> 00:19:00.540 A Web 3.0 mindset is going to say, hey, we can disciple you and we're going to do that digitally because we believe that you can disciple via this relationship digitally. 00:19:00.540 --> 00:19:07.540 And when I say communities, I'm talking I'm not talking social media because social media is a very shallow level of connection. 00:19:07.540 --> 00:19:12.540 And that's not knocking the people that's knocking the platforms like you. 00:19:12.540 --> 00:19:22.540 Like you it's very hard to to build a lasting long level relationship via digital via social media because the platforms are meant to be quick. 00:19:22.540 --> 00:19:27.540 It's you talking one way to someone and maybe they reply back, but it's not a two way dialogue. 00:19:27.540 --> 00:19:36.540 I would lean more to like a Facebook group does allow for two way easily slack WhatsApp discord. 00:19:36.540 --> 00:19:44.540 You know, we use the term asynchronous technology and starting to get into that where, you know, it's not you talking. 00:19:44.540 --> 00:19:53.540 It's it's them talking to you and you know how you disciple someone in the physical realm is you have a relationship and through the relationship. 00:19:53.540 --> 00:19:58.540 You're modeling that and they're able to to see that and replicate that. 00:19:58.540 --> 00:20:02.540 And so that's the same rules in digital. 00:20:02.540 --> 00:20:04.540 You're modeling that for them. 00:20:04.540 --> 00:20:11.540 They're able to see that and learn from that and replicate or in my my case, my friend in in Africa. 00:20:11.540 --> 00:20:19.540 He has to contextualize this for his his region and do things, which is a challenge, but it's going well. 00:20:19.540 --> 00:20:30.540 So would you say that doing digital because because there's another aspect, I think, to discipleship here is that discipleship is often best done in community. 00:20:30.540 --> 00:20:38.540 And I think we would agree, you know, communities, a context of community is an important ingredient for healthy discipleship. 00:20:38.540 --> 00:20:44.540 But what you're saying is like that community can be built and established digitally speaking. 00:20:44.540 --> 00:20:57.540 Would you say that digital community for the sake of discipleship is the same or different than in person community for the sake of discipleship? 00:20:57.540 --> 00:20:59.540 Yeah, I mean, what are their differences? 00:20:59.540 --> 00:21:00.540 That's a loaded question. 00:21:00.540 --> 00:21:01.540 It's funny. 00:21:01.540 --> 00:21:02.540 That's the question. 00:21:02.540 --> 00:21:09.540 I think that's the whole point of like incarnational mission is like I think that's the the the unspoken. 00:21:09.540 --> 00:21:22.540 And that's what I'm trying to like bring it out from the dark corners of the kingdom world and conversation is to say, like, yeah, I think that's the big contention is people are people are wondering and thinking like, is there a difference? 00:21:22.540 --> 00:21:41.540 Is it better? Is it worse? Is it like is it viable? Yeah, yeah, this is this is this is my response when people ask me that there are different types of people that will engage in digital discipleship and digital evangelism and digital community and digital relationships that will exist in the physical buildings. 00:21:41.540 --> 00:21:52.540 What we're doing digitally is not in competition with physical, but we will reach a different type of person digitally than we do physically. 00:21:52.540 --> 00:22:04.540 And even to build on that, the disciple makers that that we work with digitally often are not the type of people that would engage physically in discipleship. 00:22:04.540 --> 00:22:11.540 Maybe it's a social issue or they're more comfortable in digital space or more comfortable behind an avatar. 00:22:11.540 --> 00:22:14.540 And it's honestly, it's it's not for me to judge. 00:22:14.540 --> 00:22:26.540 I don't know whether I can say one is better than the other, but I will say the people that were discipling are, you know, atheists, agnostics, people that haven't set foot in a church building in decades. 00:22:26.540 --> 00:22:35.540 People that I've I can tell you stories of people that have shared Jesus more digitally than they've ever in one year than they ever did in a physical environment. 00:22:35.540 --> 00:22:47.540 De church people coming back to Christ via Facebook groups or virtual reality people that have never heard Jesus coming coming to it through Twitch or video games like in the video game culture. 00:22:47.540 --> 00:22:54.540 There is no understanding of who Jesus is or what the cross stands for like it's absent. 00:22:54.540 --> 00:23:04.540 And so we're coming into that space really shedding light in a dark area that the physical buildings that the incarnational is not. 00:23:04.540 --> 00:23:07.540 Now, your question is, is it better or not? 00:23:07.540 --> 00:23:11.540 I don't know, but we're we're doing something different to reach someone different. 00:23:11.540 --> 00:23:15.540 I would argue, you know, we need the you need the megachurch model. 00:23:15.540 --> 00:23:16.540 We need the microchurch model. 00:23:16.540 --> 00:23:17.540 We need a digital model. 00:23:17.540 --> 00:23:18.540 We need a workplace model. 00:23:18.540 --> 00:23:29.540 We need we need all of this to do it where I I'll just be honest a little bit here where I where the the hairs in the back of my neck, 00:23:29.540 --> 00:23:36.540 the little hairs that I do have in the back of my neck rise is when people are like, well, digital is not better than physical or physical is better than digital. 00:23:36.540 --> 00:23:41.540 I mean, if you believe that, that's true. 00:23:41.540 --> 00:23:49.540 If you are open to digital or digital is your only option, then I mean, here's the story I'll tell you, Jesse. 00:23:49.540 --> 00:23:52.540 And I can't put names on this story. 00:23:52.540 --> 00:24:03.540 I have I have met what is arguably the last American that is in Iraq when Obama pulled out all the Americans. 00:24:03.540 --> 00:24:06.540 I don't know, maybe this is four or five years ago. 00:24:06.540 --> 00:24:11.540 He stayed behind to do ministry in Iraq and his ministry. 00:24:11.540 --> 00:24:32.540 There's satellite broadcasts that are watched and that broadcast feeds people into a WhatsApp group or WhatsApp conversation where there are people in Iraq who are literally using WhatsApp to build a relationship to share Jesus and disciple. 00:24:32.540 --> 00:24:50.540 And what's interesting even to build on that is the the person once they find Christ, they're still not invited into the physical group because that person has to lead the entire family to Christ. 00:24:50.540 --> 00:24:58.540 And so not only evangelism where they come to Christ, but discipleship to the point that they can bring everyone in the family to Christ. 00:24:58.540 --> 00:25:10.540 And the reason they do everyone in the family is because when in Iraq, when you get baptized, that's at the point that the government has the authority to kill you. 00:25:10.540 --> 00:25:20.540 And so they want to baptize the entire family at one time to make sure that no family can snitch and, you know, kill the get the person killed. 00:25:20.540 --> 00:25:35.540 And so it's it's to the WhatsApp has the power of discipleship to the level in a foreign country to bring someone to Christ, to bring the entire family to Christ, to the level that their government has the authority to kill them. 00:25:35.540 --> 00:25:42.540 That's the power of digital discipleship when, OK, there's nothing else, but it's viable and it's working. 00:25:42.540 --> 00:25:50.540 And so I don't know if it's better or worse, but, you know, gun to my head, if I had to use it, it's it's definitely viable. 00:25:50.540 --> 00:26:10.540 Yeah, when whenever we speak in ways that feel like dogmatic, you know, like dogmatic truths, which is one of the challenges we have, I think, with like different groups like the Gospel Coalition, Missio Alliance and, you know, Redeemer City to City and all these other organizations out there. 00:26:10.540 --> 00:26:21.540 There tends to be, you know, these kind of hard set like this is the way it is, like this is what the Bible teaches and this is how it should be. 00:26:21.540 --> 00:26:28.540 I like to run it through a grid that says, well, if that's true, it's not only true here, it's true there. 00:26:28.540 --> 00:26:29.540 Right. 00:26:29.540 --> 00:26:31.540 And it's not only true there. 00:26:31.540 --> 00:26:34.540 It was true back when Jesus was around. 00:26:34.540 --> 00:26:36.540 And it's also true today. 00:26:36.540 --> 00:26:37.540 Right. 00:26:37.540 --> 00:26:44.540 Like whatever's true is true in the past will be true in the future. 00:26:44.540 --> 00:26:49.540 And it's true despite cultural norms. 00:26:49.540 --> 00:26:50.540 Right. 00:26:50.540 --> 00:26:51.540 And so you brought up. 00:26:51.540 --> 00:26:58.540 So so having that kind of grid in mind, let me also just address you brought up the issue of like the church building. 00:26:58.540 --> 00:27:04.540 I would say that's a nonstarter in the sense that it's a it's a maybe that's not the right way to say it. 00:27:04.540 --> 00:27:12.540 I don't think for my friends at the Missy Alliance, the argument is the church building is important or matters there. 00:27:12.540 --> 00:27:15.540 They don't hold on to space in that way. 00:27:15.540 --> 00:27:17.540 They don't hold on to the church building traditionally. 00:27:17.540 --> 00:27:27.540 They would they would say like Missy Alliance would align more closely to our friends at the Tampa Underground, the Kansas City Underground. 00:27:27.540 --> 00:27:44.540 Yeah, they would align to those guys who are doing like like a lot of what Tampa and you and I both have friends at both, you know, Rob Wagner, you know, yeah, all the folks that both of those organizations, they literally live in the neighborhoods. 00:27:44.540 --> 00:27:52.540 And they would not consider the Sunday morning gathering the most important part of what they do as a church. 00:27:52.540 --> 00:27:57.540 They would consider what they do in the neighborhoods, the community that they're building, the relationships that they're building. 00:27:57.540 --> 00:28:03.540 They would consider that the most important thing because it's informed by incarnational mission. 00:28:03.540 --> 00:28:14.540 So then yeah, so then I think the question is like, you know, from a truth perspective, like what is right? 00:28:14.540 --> 00:28:15.540 What is righteous? 00:28:15.540 --> 00:28:16.540 What is true? 00:28:16.540 --> 00:28:19.540 Can, you know, can we do? 00:28:19.540 --> 00:28:28.540 So I think we've established like, yes, you can do good discipleship from a digital perspective. 00:28:28.540 --> 00:28:31.540 I would ask it in this way too. 00:28:31.540 --> 00:28:40.540 If Jesus lived in 2025, would he be doing digital missions? 00:28:40.540 --> 00:28:43.540 Would Jesus join the WhatsApp groups? 00:28:43.540 --> 00:28:47.540 Would he, would he be blogging? 00:28:47.540 --> 00:28:49.540 Would he be on a YouTube channel? 00:28:49.540 --> 00:28:51.540 Would he be? 00:28:51.540 --> 00:28:52.540 Yeah. 00:28:52.540 --> 00:28:55.540 Well, I mean, would he be leveraging digital strategies? 00:28:55.540 --> 00:28:56.540 Yeah. 00:28:56.540 --> 00:28:59.540 I mean, let's, let's look at, let's look at Christ strategy of what, what he did. 00:28:59.540 --> 00:29:04.540 He, he would, he would stand on a boat and he would, he, I mean, this is, this is Luke six, right? 00:29:04.540 --> 00:29:07.540 You know, he would stand on a boat and preach to thousands. 00:29:07.540 --> 00:29:14.540 He would, he had followers, um, coming after him because Jesus was meeting physical needs. 00:29:14.540 --> 00:29:19.540 And then he was doing this to connect with people and, and, and through his connections. 00:29:19.540 --> 00:29:20.540 Um, okay. 00:29:20.540 --> 00:29:25.540 He had literally had thousands of people and, but he didn't, he didn't keep those people. 00:29:25.540 --> 00:29:27.540 He, he filtered them down. 00:29:27.540 --> 00:29:35.540 He, in Luke six, he started saying crazy things like eat my flesh and drink my blood, which really caused and challenged a lot of people. 00:29:35.540 --> 00:29:41.540 Luke 66, I think says that even some of the disciples were challenged as a result of what he was saying. 00:29:41.540 --> 00:29:42.540 Yeah. 00:29:42.540 --> 00:29:51.540 And, and what came of that was this core group of people, the 72, which actually became the church that we know today. 00:29:51.540 --> 00:29:55.540 They, they were equipped and were multiplied and, and, and sent out. 00:29:55.540 --> 00:30:00.540 Paul, I definitely believe what would be utilizing this stuff. 00:30:00.540 --> 00:30:05.540 I mean, if, if you actually look what Paul did, Paul was, was a digital pastor without the internet. 00:30:05.540 --> 00:30:10.540 He was planting and resourcing, uh, writing letters through the Roman road. 00:30:10.540 --> 00:30:11.540 Hey, I'm sorry. 00:30:11.540 --> 00:30:12.540 I can't be with you in person. 00:30:12.540 --> 00:30:15.540 I look forward to the day when we can be together. 00:30:15.540 --> 00:30:21.540 But until then, here are my words of, of challenging, uh, admonishment and encouragement. 00:30:21.540 --> 00:30:22.540 I can give to you. 00:30:22.540 --> 00:30:22.540 Yeah. 00:30:22.540 --> 00:30:28.540 I mean, that's, that's a freaking digital strategy without a smartphone device. 00:30:28.540 --> 00:30:35.540 And so if, if you, if you look at, I mean, this is going to, when I say this, people look at me like I'm weird, but, but think about it. 00:30:35.540 --> 00:30:38.540 We carry a, a Bible. 00:30:38.540 --> 00:30:40.540 This is the Holy word of God. 00:30:40.540 --> 00:30:42.540 This was written thousands of years ago. 00:30:42.540 --> 00:30:46.540 And so, and, and that's, that's the core foundation of our beliefs. 00:30:46.540 --> 00:30:50.540 So what was said years ago is, is still impacting us. 00:30:50.540 --> 00:30:54.540 It has literally, uh, crossed time and space. 00:30:54.540 --> 00:31:02.540 It was written on another continent millennia ago, and it's still impactful in our lives. 00:31:02.540 --> 00:31:10.540 The idea of asynchronous ministry, the idea of doing digital remotely, it's nowhere near as foreign as, as what we're already doing. 00:31:10.540 --> 00:31:15.540 Like we talk about incarnational ministry, but, and this is what I don't understand, Jesse. 00:31:15.540 --> 00:31:18.540 Like I would love, cause I don't, I never understood this about incarnational. 00:31:18.540 --> 00:31:32.540 We worship a God we've never seen, um, a, a, a, a Christ who was the sacrifice for us on another continent millennia ago and a Holy Spirit who we cannot touch, but argue that we can feel. 00:31:32.540 --> 00:31:47.540 And so like believing all of that, to be honest, the idea of doing, uh, digital ministry and discipleship via WhatsApp, that almost seems easy compared to the other stuff that we, we take as normal. 00:31:47.540 --> 00:31:49.540 Like I, I, and this is, it's funny. 00:31:49.540 --> 00:31:51.540 You've, you've talked about some of our, our micro church friends. 00:31:51.540 --> 00:31:54.540 This is literally the conversation that I, that I've had with them. 00:31:54.540 --> 00:32:01.540 It's, you know, you, you, you believe in incarnational, but at the same time, we also believe this, this thing about God. 00:32:01.540 --> 00:32:04.540 And, and how would Jesus use digital? 00:32:04.540 --> 00:32:13.540 Of course, you know, if, if Jesus were alive today, I don't know that Jesus would be able within his three years of ministry to get to every continent, to see it spread. 00:32:13.540 --> 00:32:18.540 But he would use whatever method he could to connect and start and build. 00:32:18.540 --> 00:32:20.540 I actually believe digital. 00:32:20.540 --> 00:32:21.540 It's, it's interesting. 00:32:21.540 --> 00:32:25.540 We operate digital more as a micro church strategy than a mega church. 00:32:25.540 --> 00:32:32.540 I'm not, I'm not trying to get thousands of people to, to watch what I'm doing. 00:32:32.540 --> 00:32:34.540 Um, you know, it was interesting. 00:32:34.540 --> 00:32:41.540 Seth Godin's a, I tell the story often, but Seth Godin is one of the top marketing brains in the planet right now. 00:32:41.540 --> 00:32:43.540 He's a, uh, he's an influencer. 00:32:43.540 --> 00:32:46.540 He's a thought leader in, uh, in America lives in New York city. 00:32:46.540 --> 00:32:49.540 And, uh, he's written dozens of books, New York time bestseller. 00:32:49.540 --> 00:32:54.540 Uh, but somebody asked Seth Godin, how do I get my message heard around the world? 00:32:54.540 --> 00:32:55.540 Okay. 00:32:55.540 --> 00:32:58.540 How do I get my message heard around the world? 00:32:58.540 --> 00:32:59.540 This was back in 2019. 00:32:59.540 --> 00:33:04.540 Seth Godin said on his podcast, a billion people don't care about anything you have to say. 00:33:04.540 --> 00:33:10.540 If you want to change though, if you want to get your message heard around the world, you got to think smaller. 00:33:10.540 --> 00:33:11.540 And it, okay. 00:33:11.540 --> 00:33:14.540 A hundred million, 10 million, 1 million, a hundred thousand, 10,000. 00:33:14.540 --> 00:33:16.540 Like how small do I have to think? 00:33:16.540 --> 00:33:22.540 Seth actually said to get your message heard around the world, craft a message for an individual. 00:33:22.540 --> 00:33:25.540 Get that person to see it, hear it, understand it. 00:33:25.540 --> 00:33:36.540 And they get that individual to tell someone else that one of the top marketing innovator leaders in the planet right now is not talking about reaching billions. 00:33:36.540 --> 00:33:39.540 He's talking about reaching an individual and seeing it multiply. 00:33:39.540 --> 00:33:42.540 By the way, it's the same way Jesus did his church. 00:33:42.540 --> 00:33:45.540 And so are we learning from the church? 00:33:45.540 --> 00:33:47.540 Are we learning from Jesus at a marketing level? 00:33:47.540 --> 00:33:48.540 Maybe. 00:33:48.540 --> 00:33:52.540 I love seeing when marketing crosses biblical principles like that. 00:33:52.540 --> 00:33:57.540 But it's a, can we do that model digitally? 00:33:57.540 --> 00:33:58.540 Certainly. 00:33:58.540 --> 00:33:59.540 We do that all the time. 00:33:59.540 --> 00:34:14.540 And with discipleship and community to follow that and to see it multiply, like we can reach people that carnational ministry, the current interpretation of carnational ministry can't reach doing what we're doing. 00:34:14.540 --> 00:34:17.540 And think about it, Jesse, like, you know, I've got my smartphone here. 00:34:17.540 --> 00:34:22.540 Um, we've got people that are spending eight to 10 hours on this. 00:34:22.540 --> 00:34:27.540 Like, okay, you know, you've got your first place, second place, first place is home, because that's where you sleep. 00:34:27.540 --> 00:34:32.540 Second place is usually work, uh, because that's where, that's where your job is. 00:34:32.540 --> 00:34:37.540 And you go, I mean, this is, if this isn't second place, this is third place, right? 00:34:37.540 --> 00:34:40.540 Because we're spending so much time on this device. 00:34:40.540 --> 00:34:56.540 And if we could leverage that time to, to build relationships, if we could leverage that time and that focus in community, if we can use this tool to, to strengthen relationships, instead of we'll come to a physical building or come to a meetup, let's, let's have coffee. 00:34:56.540 --> 00:35:00.540 I mean, we can reach people that we can't have coffee with. 00:35:00.540 --> 00:35:05.540 We can disciple people literally around the world doing this. 00:35:05.540 --> 00:35:09.540 We can have that one-on-one conversation with them at an intimate level. 00:35:09.540 --> 00:35:11.540 And that, that's what we're seeing. 00:35:11.540 --> 00:35:14.540 And we're seeing God move through that. 00:35:14.540 --> 00:35:17.540 Why not use this to build community? 00:35:17.540 --> 00:35:20.540 I mean, that, that's really the challenge. 00:35:20.540 --> 00:35:27.540 People, people are building community online digitally and virtual and virtual reality, whether we want to or not. 00:35:27.540 --> 00:35:31.540 It's just really a matter of, are we the church going to go into these dark spaces? 00:35:31.540 --> 00:35:33.540 Or are we going to be hands off and be, no, I'm sorry. 00:35:33.540 --> 00:35:37.540 God doesn't operate in, in the, in digital and the metaverse. 00:35:39.540 --> 00:35:40.540 Yeah, that's good. 00:35:40.540 --> 00:35:52.540 Would it be an overstatement or an oversimplification to say that digital is a means that really what we're saying here is that digital is a means to an end? 00:35:52.540 --> 00:35:56.540 I would say that, that digital is a means to the end. 00:35:56.540 --> 00:35:57.540 It's a tool. 00:35:57.540 --> 00:35:58.540 It's a means to the end. 00:35:58.540 --> 00:35:59.540 It's, it's not, it's not the end. 00:35:59.540 --> 00:36:00.540 It's the means. 00:36:00.540 --> 00:36:01.540 I do agree with that. 00:36:01.540 --> 00:36:05.540 Um, so kind of like what you were saying when Paul wrote letters. 00:36:05.540 --> 00:36:06.540 Yeah. 00:36:06.540 --> 00:36:07.540 Yeah. 00:36:07.540 --> 00:36:08.540 You were saying Paul wrote letters. 00:36:08.540 --> 00:36:13.540 So, so in Paul's day, he's pen, he's putting pen to paper. 00:36:13.540 --> 00:36:23.540 Um, and that was a tool that was a means to an end, which that means to an end obviously has had long-term impact. 00:36:23.540 --> 00:36:24.540 Right. 00:36:24.540 --> 00:36:28.540 Cause today we read his letters, you're saying digital is a means to an end. 00:36:28.540 --> 00:36:30.540 It's a tool that can be used. 00:36:31.540 --> 00:36:42.540 Um, I would also say, you know, and maybe this is an oversimplification of what missions is, but my understanding of what missions. 00:36:42.540 --> 00:36:46.540 Starts with is going to where the people are at. 00:36:49.540 --> 00:36:53.540 And you can't do good missionary work. 00:36:53.540 --> 00:36:56.540 If you're not willing to go where the people are at. 00:36:56.540 --> 00:37:05.540 When I was a kid growing up every year, the church would have missions week and we'd invite all the missionaries that we supported to come. 00:37:05.540 --> 00:37:08.540 And I used to hear amazing stories. 00:37:08.540 --> 00:37:09.540 Yeah. 00:37:09.540 --> 00:37:16.540 As a matter of fact, my freshman college roommate, his dad was martyred in the jungles of Columbia. 00:37:17.540 --> 00:37:20.540 Uh, he was one of the men who was martyred by some of the tribes. 00:37:21.540 --> 00:37:29.540 Um, his dad was a missionary with new tribes missions and, um, very similar to the Jim Elliot story. 00:37:29.540 --> 00:37:35.540 You know, and I had a roommate in college who told me that story about his dad and, and, and, you know, got very close to it. 00:37:36.540 --> 00:37:44.540 Missions has always been at the heart, this idea of going to where the people are at meeting them in their context. 00:37:46.540 --> 00:37:47.540 Right. 00:37:47.540 --> 00:37:47.540 Right. 00:37:47.540 --> 00:37:58.540 And it seems somewhat obvious to me that if people in our current day and age are somewhere. 00:38:00.540 --> 00:38:05.540 Digitally that to meet them, there is good missions. 00:38:05.540 --> 00:38:06.540 It's good missionary work. 00:38:06.540 --> 00:38:07.540 Yeah. 00:38:07.540 --> 00:38:08.540 Right. 00:38:08.540 --> 00:38:19.540 But I think that perhaps in this conversation, there is, there can be like in any conversation, there can be extremes, right? 00:38:19.540 --> 00:38:24.540 The extreme, you know, one extreme can be to avoid digital altogether. 00:38:24.540 --> 00:38:25.540 Right. 00:38:26.540 --> 00:38:46.540 To be somewhat, um, Amish in our kind of theology and to say like all technology is bad and to, you know, but, but then I think if we're honest with ourselves, at least for my missile Alliance friends, if we're honest, like we're already there. 00:38:46.540 --> 00:38:48.540 Like we're already using smartphones. 00:38:48.540 --> 00:38:51.540 We already use digital technology for a lot of other things. 00:38:52.540 --> 00:39:07.540 If we swing all the way to the other side, we might say, well, we're only going to do digital and never pursue any kind of in-person connection. 00:39:07.540 --> 00:39:08.540 Right. 00:39:08.540 --> 00:39:15.540 And, and, and this is where I might, if I was going to like put a stake in the ground, I would, I would probably create some law. 00:39:15.540 --> 00:39:20.540 Probably create some levels and say, you know, in-person is always better than digital. 00:39:20.540 --> 00:39:24.540 Like for example, you and I do live 20 minutes away from each other. 00:39:24.540 --> 00:39:27.540 We live in the same city and we do in-person meetups. 00:39:27.540 --> 00:39:31.540 Sometimes we'll meet at the Starbucks that you mentioned there by Baptist hospital and Kendall. 00:39:31.540 --> 00:39:36.540 I always enjoy our in-person gatherings. 00:39:36.540 --> 00:39:44.540 And probably, probably a little bit better than our zoom calls or, you know, digital video calls. 00:39:44.540 --> 00:39:54.540 But, but, but the fact that we have the opportunity to do these video calls really helps us accelerate our work. 00:39:54.540 --> 00:39:58.540 So it's a tool that helps us be more efficient. 00:39:58.540 --> 00:39:59.540 Yeah. 00:39:59.540 --> 00:40:00.540 But I'd rather be with you in-person. 00:40:00.540 --> 00:40:02.540 I mean, next week you and I are going to fly to Dallas. 00:40:02.540 --> 00:40:03.540 We're going to be in-person together. 00:40:03.540 --> 00:40:05.540 We're going to be meeting with people in-person. 00:40:05.540 --> 00:40:08.540 That's always a great experience in-person. 00:40:08.540 --> 00:40:30.540 So to me, it's like the, there's a balance, like the way that you re I guess my conclusion, if I was going to have a conclusion in this conversation, not that we have to conclude, but I would just say the way you is saying rectify that feel like that's not a good word to use, but is the way you reconcile incarnational mission with digital. 00:40:30.540 --> 00:40:44.540 Is that you, you, you have a proper view of digital as a tool or as a means to an end with, with understanding the heart behind incarnational mission. 00:40:44.540 --> 00:40:45.540 Yeah. 00:40:45.540 --> 00:40:54.540 And you live within the balance, or, you know, if you're more pessimistic, you live within the tension of, we got to meet people where they're at. 00:40:54.540 --> 00:41:08.540 And since people mostly are online, you start there, we go there with hopes that yes, in-person is always a better experience, but sometimes you don't get the luxury of in-person. 00:41:08.540 --> 00:41:17.540 So you meet people where they're at and you begin, and, and because the tool allows you to build a level of community that is impactful. 00:41:17.540 --> 00:41:18.540 Yeah. 00:41:18.540 --> 00:41:23.540 Maybe not as impactful as if it was in person, but it is impactful. 00:41:23.540 --> 00:41:31.540 There are, the evidence is clear that there are millions of people coming to faith, especially like, and again, this goes back to the truism. 00:41:31.540 --> 00:41:34.540 Like, like if it's true now, it's true later. 00:41:34.540 --> 00:41:36.540 And if it's true here, it's true there. 00:41:36.540 --> 00:41:47.540 If we look at the work that's happening in the Middle East, this is the way people are coming to faith and being discipled in the Middle East. 00:41:47.540 --> 00:41:48.540 It's all digital. 00:41:48.540 --> 00:41:50.540 Yeah. 00:41:50.540 --> 00:41:56.540 The, the, the, the, there's using the tool of digital. 00:41:56.540 --> 00:41:58.540 There are strengths. 00:41:58.540 --> 00:41:59.540 First off, let me back up. 00:41:59.540 --> 00:42:06.540 Even in digital relationships, even in digital churches, even in digital discipleship, there's value in physical. 00:42:06.540 --> 00:42:10.540 Like we're, we're very few are saying digital in nothing. 00:42:10.540 --> 00:42:14.540 Like even the video game churches, they, they gather together. 00:42:14.540 --> 00:42:29.540 I can tell you virtual reality churches that I've met, uh, together and people have literally flown across continents, uh, across the Atlantic and Pacific ocean to gather together with a, an American church, um, that they experience in virtual reality. 00:42:29.540 --> 00:42:32.540 Like there's, there's value in physicality. 00:42:32.540 --> 00:42:45.540 I think the idea is with digital only is that the physicality is not every Sunday or, um, it's not, it's not, it's helpful, but it's not needed. 00:42:45.540 --> 00:42:50.540 You know, in, in my leadership team, all of us have never have been in the same space at the same time. 00:42:50.540 --> 00:43:02.540 Literally, I've got six people that are on my senior leadership team are on different continents, probably four different time zones if I did the math and like we've, we've never, all of us been collectively together. 00:43:02.540 --> 00:43:07.540 And so, but that doesn't mean that we can't function. 00:43:07.540 --> 00:43:09.540 That doesn't mean that discipleship can't exist. 00:43:09.540 --> 00:43:11.540 It just means that it's, it's different. 00:43:11.540 --> 00:43:12.540 It's interesting. 00:43:12.540 --> 00:43:22.540 Actually, one of our, one of our, um, one of our micro church friends, uh, told me once, he says, he says to me, Jeff, he's like, I'm a believer in digital discipleship now. 00:43:22.540 --> 00:43:23.540 Why? 00:43:23.540 --> 00:43:25.540 This is maybe 22. 00:43:25.540 --> 00:43:28.540 He says, I'm a believer in digital discipleship now. 00:43:28.540 --> 00:43:29.540 He's, I was like, why? 00:43:29.540 --> 00:43:33.540 And he's like, well, we've started using it as zoom and compliment the physical. 00:43:33.540 --> 00:43:37.540 And, and, and what we've seen is the micro church leader. 00:43:37.540 --> 00:43:38.540 Well known. 00:43:38.540 --> 00:43:46.540 He says, what we've seen is that people will, um, rarely cancel on us digitally. 00:43:46.540 --> 00:43:50.540 He says, we get a higher percentage of physical cancellations. 00:43:50.540 --> 00:43:53.540 Uh, people won't show up or, you know, something happens. 00:43:53.540 --> 00:43:55.540 They, they can't figure out the kids. 00:43:55.540 --> 00:43:58.540 Uh, and so, but digital, it's like people rarely cancel. 00:43:58.540 --> 00:44:01.540 We're doing the meetings after the kids go to bed at nine or 10 at nine. 00:44:01.540 --> 00:44:03.540 It's later and it's, it's yeah. 00:44:03.540 --> 00:44:03.540 Okay. 00:44:03.540 --> 00:44:05.540 It's more convenient to do it digitally. 00:44:05.540 --> 00:44:08.540 Uh, and, and so like the idea of engagement, it's, it's easier. 00:44:08.540 --> 00:44:12.540 I don't kind of hold my kids across the city or figure out childcare. 00:44:12.540 --> 00:44:14.540 Like it's, it's done in the house. 00:44:14.540 --> 00:44:19.540 The other thing that he said, the other thing that he said is people, because it's so much 00:44:19.540 --> 00:44:25.540 easier, people are actually willing to meet multiple times a week and go through it quicker. 00:44:25.540 --> 00:44:32.540 Um, and not, not that discipleship's a race, but the idea is that they're engaging in the 00:44:32.540 --> 00:44:34.540 conversations more. 00:44:34.540 --> 00:44:41.540 And so, you know, that's a super interesting point that you're making because how many times 00:44:41.540 --> 00:44:48.540 have we sat in church and we heard, I saw a meme one time on social media that was making 00:44:48.540 --> 00:44:53.540 fun of like almost every church when they talk about small groups, like in-person small groups, 00:44:53.540 --> 00:44:56.540 they reference it as like do life together. 00:44:56.540 --> 00:44:57.540 Yeah. 00:44:57.540 --> 00:45:01.540 But if we're honest, you're not really doing life together. 00:45:01.540 --> 00:45:05.540 You're just meeting once a week for an hour or two in somebody's home. 00:45:05.540 --> 00:45:07.540 You're not really sharing. 00:45:07.540 --> 00:45:13.540 Like rarely do people share the truth about what's going on behind the scenes in their life. 00:45:13.540 --> 00:45:18.540 We're just answering questions from the sermon that was preached on Sunday, sharing some very 00:45:18.540 --> 00:45:19.540 surfacy prayer requests. 00:45:19.540 --> 00:45:23.540 We might have some good guacamole and chips and then we leave. 00:45:23.540 --> 00:45:32.540 But digital does provide a means to do more life together because of the fact that you can 00:45:32.540 --> 00:45:38.540 quickly jump in and out of meetings and calls and messages and really share the truth of 00:45:38.540 --> 00:45:41.540 because of, yeah, because it's, it's quicker, it's faster. 00:45:41.540 --> 00:45:48.540 It's easier to do that as opposed to a once a week hour gathering where people aren't actually 00:45:48.540 --> 00:45:50.540 being, yeah. 00:45:50.540 --> 00:45:57.540 This is a tool, you know, and this, this can, you know, I can push a couple buttons and I 00:45:57.540 --> 00:46:02.540 can make an attempt to broadcast my message in front of a billion people. 00:46:02.540 --> 00:46:06.540 I don't think a billion people are going to be interested, but I can do it. 00:46:06.540 --> 00:46:12.540 I can use this tool to build a relationship with someone that's literally on the opposite 00:46:12.540 --> 00:46:13.540 side of the planet from me. 00:46:13.540 --> 00:46:18.540 And I have a one-on-one relationship with someone. 00:46:18.540 --> 00:46:25.540 I can use this tool to reach someone that's literally across the street from me and can use 00:46:25.540 --> 00:46:26.540 it for that purpose. 00:46:26.540 --> 00:46:35.540 And so, you know, and that, I think that what incarnational people miss about digital is 00:46:35.540 --> 00:46:38.540 the intimacy that's possible with this tool. 00:46:38.540 --> 00:46:45.540 They're seeing the, the typical church model that's trying to broadcast the church service 00:46:45.540 --> 00:46:51.540 that is, that's all about reach and not about relationship because that's, that's the typical 00:46:51.540 --> 00:46:52.540 model. 00:46:52.540 --> 00:46:55.540 And this tool can do that. 00:46:55.540 --> 00:47:02.540 I don't think that method, that strategy is effective for the church, but doing a, listen, 00:47:02.540 --> 00:47:07.540 I mean, we're working with people right now that want to do a micro church strategy digitally. 00:47:07.540 --> 00:47:13.540 I can tell you digital micro churches that exist on multiple continents and they've been successful. 00:47:13.540 --> 00:47:19.540 I can tell you, Mike, a digital micro churches that have started campuses and actually locations 00:47:19.540 --> 00:47:25.540 off of the ministry, digital only micro churches that actually spun off a physical campus because 00:47:25.540 --> 00:47:27.540 the ministry was so strong. 00:47:27.540 --> 00:47:33.540 Like there's, there's opportunities to explore this at a relational context. 00:47:33.540 --> 00:47:39.540 And, you know, in the, in the arc, in the, in the incarnational world, I would say, I don't, 00:47:39.540 --> 00:47:46.540 I don't, I don't speak enough of that language to really understand like how to make that difference. 00:47:46.540 --> 00:47:52.540 But I would challenge incarnational leaders to really lean into the relational aspects to 00:47:52.540 --> 00:47:59.540 better understand the community aspects of what digital is to dive into this 3.0 mentality 00:47:59.540 --> 00:48:06.540 of recognizing community in those spaces and not trying to pull that out into a physical, 00:48:06.540 --> 00:48:09.540 physical, but lean in and disciple more of that. 00:48:09.540 --> 00:48:15.540 The, the pulling of people out of digital community into a physical relationship. 00:48:15.540 --> 00:48:23.540 As a general rule, I have seen missional organizations globally try to do that too soon. 00:48:23.540 --> 00:48:26.540 And as a result of that, people are disconnecting. 00:48:26.540 --> 00:48:28.540 It's too big of an ask. 00:48:28.540 --> 00:48:34.540 I don't trust this individual or this organization enough to meet with them physically. 00:48:34.540 --> 00:48:38.540 I don't trust them enough to have a one-on-one conversation yet. 00:48:38.540 --> 00:48:41.540 This is the role of community. 00:48:41.540 --> 00:48:46.540 You lean into the community to build relationships and establish trust. 00:48:46.540 --> 00:48:47.540 It's, it's not a microwave. 00:48:47.540 --> 00:48:49.540 It's a crockpot approach. 00:48:49.540 --> 00:48:51.540 And, and it's interesting. 00:48:51.540 --> 00:48:56.540 Even the incarnational, even the physical micro churches, I've seen them try to use digital 00:48:56.540 --> 00:49:00.540 as a microwave to quickly pull people into a relationship. 00:49:00.540 --> 00:49:02.540 And it doesn't work that way. 00:49:02.540 --> 00:49:04.540 You've got to lean into the community. 00:49:04.540 --> 00:49:05.540 You've got to be okay with it. 00:49:05.540 --> 00:49:12.540 You know, I tell my, my virtual reality friends, you want to talk to that avatar without a real name, 00:49:12.540 --> 00:49:14.540 without a real identity, as long as possible. 00:49:14.540 --> 00:49:21.540 Because digitally people will, are comfortable having hard, difficult conversations behind an avatar, 00:49:21.540 --> 00:49:27.540 behind a, uh, uh, and, and social media handle behind it without sharing their real name. 00:49:27.540 --> 00:49:32.540 When, when you, when you find out their real name, it actually kills the conversation. 00:49:32.540 --> 00:49:36.540 It slows it down because now I know who you are without that. 00:49:36.540 --> 00:49:37.540 Oh my gosh. 00:49:37.540 --> 00:49:40.540 You, you can get so deep so quickly digitally. 00:49:40.540 --> 00:49:42.540 And that's what we're finding across the board. 00:49:42.540 --> 00:49:45.540 It's, it's not pull people into that relationship. 00:49:45.540 --> 00:49:49.540 It's lean into digital as long as possible. 00:49:49.540 --> 00:49:55.540 And then when there's trust established, then pull them into a physical relationship. 00:49:55.540 --> 00:50:09.540 That one little shift would make night and day, but it causes it's calls for the, the incarnational people to recognize the power of the digital tools. 00:50:09.540 --> 00:50:10.540 Turn it across the right way. 00:50:10.540 --> 00:50:14.540 The digital tools, uh, to build relationships. 00:50:14.540 --> 00:50:24.540 You know what this, what you just shared opened for me a whole nother aspect of this conversation. 00:50:24.540 --> 00:50:34.540 Um, what I think what you're highlighting, Jeff, is that we are perfect. 00:50:34.540 --> 00:50:39.540 We perpetually live in a, in a more dangerous world than ever before. 00:50:39.540 --> 00:50:53.540 And the safety, um, barometer for people is so low that part of the reason. 00:50:53.540 --> 00:51:05.540 It becomes so difficult sometimes to really grow your church or build a ministry or make disciples is because the resistance that people have because of the trust factor. 00:51:05.540 --> 00:51:06.540 It's like, I don't know you. 00:51:06.540 --> 00:51:07.540 I don't want you to know me. 00:51:07.540 --> 00:51:12.540 Like in order for like, like, let's take community, the whole conversation around community. 00:51:12.540 --> 00:51:19.540 The reason why most small groups suffer and struggle is because people aren't being real. 00:51:19.540 --> 00:51:25.540 People desperately want to be known, but people are afraid to be known because they don't trust that they're going to be loved. 00:51:25.540 --> 00:51:30.540 And so what you're bringing up is that like digital is a tool that helps us. 00:51:30.540 --> 00:51:37.540 So the heart behind incarnational mission is, you know, pursuing people, loving people, serving people. 00:51:37.540 --> 00:51:39.540 Let's move into their neighborhood. 00:51:39.540 --> 00:51:46.540 But I could move into like, let's say like, I've got friends that live in like poor neighborhoods here in Miami for that purpose, right? 00:51:46.540 --> 00:51:48.540 To serve that particular neighborhood. 00:51:48.540 --> 00:51:58.540 But just because you moved into the neighborhood doesn't give you the right to their life. 00:51:58.540 --> 00:52:02.540 You have to, you have to live there for a while. 00:52:02.540 --> 00:52:03.540 You have to prove yourself. 00:52:03.540 --> 00:52:10.540 You have to show over time that you're trustworthy, right? 00:52:10.540 --> 00:52:20.540 And so what, what digital can be is that tool to help you move into people's neighborhoods and prove your trustworthiness and build relationship. 00:52:20.540 --> 00:52:26.540 So that one day down the road, there's a community that fosters a kind of healthy discipleship. 00:52:26.540 --> 00:52:38.540 So that people will come to, which it does like what you were going back to, you know, what Jay wrote in his book and Saddleback is that if you can impact people's lives digitally, it will impact their life physically. 00:52:38.540 --> 00:52:39.540 Yeah. 00:52:39.540 --> 00:52:42.540 It's because the people you disciple, they have family behind them. 00:52:42.540 --> 00:52:44.540 They have neighbors they live next to. 00:52:44.540 --> 00:52:45.540 Yeah. 00:52:45.540 --> 00:52:54.540 It's, it's all about trust and using digital, using digital community to earn the trust. 00:52:54.540 --> 00:52:58.540 Uh, and to do that, you gotta, you gotta, to be honest, you gotta listen more than you talk. 00:52:58.540 --> 00:53:02.540 Uh, we, we, we tell people you gotta ask questions more than make statements. 00:53:02.540 --> 00:53:05.540 Always use question marks, really never use a period. 00:53:05.540 --> 00:53:08.540 And for the love of God, don't use an exclamation mark. 00:53:08.540 --> 00:53:17.540 Like digital is, is not, you know, is not the platform to sit in at least initially and tell people on a soapbox, everything that's wrong with their life. 00:53:17.540 --> 00:53:25.540 And that honestly, that's a lot of what the, the sermons come across as, as we're broadcasting this out on a, on a mega level. 00:53:25.540 --> 00:53:31.540 Um, you know, uh, uh, you don't necessarily, some people will engage with it, but the majority will not. 00:53:31.540 --> 00:53:38.540 And so, but having a conversation, building a relationship, learning about people, you know, we, we've adapted. 00:53:38.540 --> 00:53:45.540 This is not a, uh, I guess it's kind of incarnational, but the blessed practices, uh, from, from Dave Ferguson, begin with prayer. 00:53:45.540 --> 00:53:51.540 Um, listen, uh, eat together, uh, serve, and then share Jesus's story. 00:53:51.540 --> 00:53:59.540 Uh, we actually wrote a book, uh, sharing Jesus online.com, but it's, it's on Amazon, but it's begin with prayer digitally, how to do that. 00:53:59.540 --> 00:54:01.540 Begin with prayer, listen. 00:54:01.540 --> 00:54:11.540 And then we talk about shared experiences, build relationships digitally with people in digital community, figure out how to serve them and then share the story. 00:54:11.540 --> 00:54:20.540 The, the, the relational aspects of, of digital, once again, like it's the thing that we're, we're missing on the broad scale. 00:54:20.540 --> 00:54:30.540 And, and for us to be more effective, it's not, it's not using digital as a megaphone or a microphone shelling, shouting out, getting the world to hear. 00:54:30.540 --> 00:54:32.540 It's, it's much more about a whisper. 00:54:32.540 --> 00:54:37.540 It's much more about a, a, uh, a starting a conversation, a dialogue. 00:54:37.540 --> 00:54:49.540 And through that dialogue, you know, allowing the Holy spirit to, to do something, to guide the conversation, to make it much more, um, about the person that you're talking with. 00:54:49.540 --> 00:54:56.540 And a relational point, rather than making it about your beliefs in how they're doing things that, that are wrong. 00:54:56.540 --> 00:54:57.540 You got to earn trust. 00:54:57.540 --> 00:54:57.540 Yeah. 00:54:57.540 --> 00:54:58.540 Trust. 00:54:58.540 --> 00:54:59.540 And that take, that takes time. 00:54:59.540 --> 00:55:00.540 Go ahead. 00:55:00.540 --> 00:55:01.540 Yeah. 00:55:01.540 --> 00:55:06.540 The way I see it kind of, you know, to summarize like digital, right. 00:55:06.540 --> 00:55:08.540 Being the tool, it's a trust building tool. 00:55:08.540 --> 00:55:25.540 Like the, the, the, the reconciling factor and incarnational mission is that digital becomes the trust building tool or bridge to help foster the trust necessary for healthy community that leads to healthy discipleship. 00:55:25.540 --> 00:55:34.540 Um, and in, in, in, in, in an increasing context in the world at which we live, it's more and more necessary. 00:55:34.540 --> 00:55:36.540 Um, yeah. 00:55:36.540 --> 00:55:45.540 If I was in a room full of our friends at Missy Alliance, I wouldn't say stop moving into the neighborhoods. 00:55:45.540 --> 00:55:46.540 Hmm. 00:55:46.540 --> 00:55:56.540 What I'd say is move into the neighborhoods, but then add, you know, add the, the digital tools to help you connect with those people in your neighborhoods. 00:55:56.540 --> 00:55:57.540 Yeah. 00:55:57.540 --> 00:56:08.540 To build those bridges and build trust so that those conversations, you know, can happen so that we can foster a level of community that. 00:56:08.540 --> 00:56:09.540 Yeah. 00:56:09.540 --> 00:56:10.540 Yeah. 00:56:10.540 --> 00:56:11.540 Yeah. 00:56:11.540 --> 00:56:16.540 Even people, if people are not ready for a three Oh lean into digital only community environment. 00:56:16.540 --> 00:56:19.540 If you're not ready for that, which is okay. 00:56:19.540 --> 00:56:21.540 Use at a two Oh mindset. 00:56:21.540 --> 00:56:22.540 I'm moving into a community. 00:56:22.540 --> 00:56:24.540 I'm trying to build relationships once again. 00:56:24.540 --> 00:56:25.540 Okay. 00:56:25.540 --> 00:56:26.540 Hey, you know what? 00:56:26.540 --> 00:56:27.540 I'm moving into this neighborhood. 00:56:27.540 --> 00:56:29.540 I want to connect with everybody. 00:56:29.540 --> 00:56:32.540 And so I'm going to like sit outside on my front yard. 00:56:32.540 --> 00:56:34.540 I'm going to do a barbecue. 00:56:34.540 --> 00:56:36.540 I'm going to go hang out at the park and shake hands. 00:56:36.540 --> 00:56:38.540 You will meet people that way. 00:56:38.540 --> 00:56:39.540 Yeah. 00:56:39.540 --> 00:56:41.540 But here, here's the reality. 00:56:41.540 --> 00:56:45.540 The average American spends six to eight hours a day on this device. 00:56:45.540 --> 00:56:51.540 They spend more time on this device than they do walking the neighborhood streets. 00:56:51.540 --> 00:56:53.540 Then they do walk in the dog. 00:56:53.540 --> 00:56:55.540 Then they do go into the parks. 00:56:55.540 --> 00:56:57.540 Then they do playing with the kids in the front yard. 00:56:57.540 --> 00:57:04.540 And so even if your goal is only in an incarnational mindset to use this tool to build relationships 00:57:04.540 --> 00:57:08.540 digitally, to get to the point where you can, Hey, why don't you come over for dinner? 00:57:08.540 --> 00:57:16.540 Like you're, you're crazy not to, but the thing that I would suggest is don't rush getting 00:57:16.540 --> 00:57:21.540 people into having coffee or doing the barbecue on the street. 00:57:21.540 --> 00:57:23.540 Some people will respond quickly. 00:57:23.540 --> 00:57:27.540 Some people need to build trust digitally to get to that point. 00:57:27.540 --> 00:57:32.540 And I would suggest praying through that, you know, the blessed mindset is begin with prayer 00:57:32.540 --> 00:57:33.540 and listen. 00:57:33.540 --> 00:57:37.540 You know, if, if you feel like God's leading you to do something quicker, go. 00:57:37.540 --> 00:57:43.540 If you feel like God is, is, is challenging you maybe to build that relationship via digital, God 00:57:43.540 --> 00:57:46.540 can move with your thumbs typing on an iPhone. 00:57:46.540 --> 00:57:48.540 Um, you know, we, it's funny. 00:57:48.540 --> 00:57:50.540 We talk about praying with thumbs all the time. 00:57:50.540 --> 00:57:55.540 When people text you're like in a textbook or WhatsApp, you know, pray for me with a prayer 00:57:55.540 --> 00:57:56.540 request. 00:57:56.540 --> 00:57:59.540 I will actually type the prayer and not, not, not the praying emoji. 00:57:59.540 --> 00:58:02.540 I will actually type it out in there. 00:58:02.540 --> 00:58:02.540 Yeah. 00:58:02.540 --> 00:58:03.540 Write it all out. 00:58:03.540 --> 00:58:03.540 Yeah. 00:58:03.540 --> 00:58:04.540 Write it all out. 00:58:04.540 --> 00:58:07.540 Like God can move digitally. 00:58:07.540 --> 00:58:10.540 People are grounded through those devices physically. 00:58:10.540 --> 00:58:16.540 And if we're saying that God cannot move digitally, oh my gosh, like we've just, man has created 00:58:16.540 --> 00:58:19.540 a device that God cannot use, that God cannot enter. 00:58:19.540 --> 00:58:23.540 Like theologically that just opens up a whole other can of worms. 00:58:23.540 --> 00:58:26.540 So God can move it using this stuff. 00:58:26.540 --> 00:58:32.540 Don't be afraid to utilize it as a tool at the 2.0 mindset to build that community. 00:58:32.540 --> 00:58:38.540 You're trying to physically, but you got to build trust using the digital tools to be more 00:58:38.540 --> 00:58:39.540 effective. 00:58:39.540 --> 00:58:46.540 Can you go back and just repeat the 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, just make sure we caption some recording. 00:58:46.540 --> 00:58:47.540 And yeah. 00:58:47.540 --> 00:58:54.540 So a 1, 1.0 mindset is, you know, and this comes back in like the, the mid nineties, uh, 00:58:54.540 --> 00:58:56.540 1990s, late 1990s. 00:58:56.540 --> 00:59:01.540 It's the information age where people would put information on a webpage. 00:59:01.540 --> 00:59:06.540 So your church would, if you're a micro church, you would build a webpage and you would try 00:59:06.540 --> 00:59:07.540 to share it with people. 00:59:07.540 --> 00:59:11.540 And, but the, the goal was not to do ministry digitally. 00:59:11.540 --> 00:59:15.540 The goal was to get people connected to a, to a physical church location. 00:59:15.540 --> 00:59:22.540 So a micro church, you would put out, uh, uh, an invite to, uh, a barbecue and you would 00:59:22.540 --> 00:59:26.540 put it on Evite and send it out to everybody in the neighborhood and try to get everybody 00:59:26.540 --> 00:59:28.540 to come to the physical building. 00:59:28.540 --> 00:59:34.540 You're putting information online, but your ministry is, is happening, uh, physically. 00:59:34.540 --> 00:59:37.540 And obviously that still happens today. 00:59:37.540 --> 00:59:38.540 We still do that today, right? 00:59:38.540 --> 00:59:41.540 Most churches, they've got that plan a visit page. 00:59:41.540 --> 00:59:46.540 You know, our church services meet on Sundays at nine and 11 and, you know, and we've got 00:59:46.540 --> 00:59:49.540 childcare and, you know, they're, so they're disseminating information. 00:59:49.540 --> 00:59:52.540 It's a kind of a one way communication model. 00:59:52.540 --> 00:59:53.540 Okay. 00:59:53.540 --> 00:59:54.540 Yeah. 00:59:54.540 --> 01:00:02.540 2.0, um, you know, now starts to empower individuals to talk with that and they're able to dialogue 01:00:02.540 --> 01:00:08.540 somewhat, but the goal is still to drive people to a physical location. 01:00:08.540 --> 01:00:17.540 1.0 was, um, organizations having the authority to 2.0 the social media age offers conversations 01:00:17.540 --> 01:00:22.540 where now we're empowering individuals to talk, by the way, other people talking about your 01:00:22.540 --> 01:00:26.540 ministry is far better than you as a pastor talking about your ministry. 01:00:26.540 --> 01:00:32.540 Uh, but still with the 2.0 mindset, the, the goal was not to recognize community for what 01:00:32.540 --> 01:00:35.540 it is, uh, an opportunity to build trust. 01:00:35.540 --> 01:00:39.540 It was still driving to go to the physical building. 01:00:39.540 --> 01:00:44.540 So we're, we're, we're getting other people, uh, a social media graphic that says, come to 01:00:44.540 --> 01:00:49.540 our church service Sunday, 9:00 AM, or we're, we're asking people, Hey, invite your friends 01:00:49.540 --> 01:00:52.540 to this barbecue. 01:00:52.540 --> 01:00:58.540 And they would, they would take that link from evite.com and send it out on their networks, 01:00:58.540 --> 01:01:02.540 trying to pull people into the physical mindset. 01:01:02.540 --> 01:01:04.540 Does that make sense, Jesse? 01:01:04.540 --> 01:01:05.540 You good? 01:01:05.540 --> 01:01:06.540 Makes sense. 01:01:06.540 --> 01:01:07.540 Yeah. 01:01:07.540 --> 01:01:09.540 And then the 3.0, uh, mindset. 01:01:09.540 --> 01:01:14.540 This is much more, I mean, at the technological side, this is virtual reality. 01:01:14.540 --> 01:01:16.540 This is metaverse. 01:01:16.540 --> 01:01:17.540 This is immersive. 01:01:17.540 --> 01:01:18.540 This is blockchain and crypto. 01:01:18.540 --> 01:01:25.540 But at the core of all of this, I would boil it down to a, a, a deeper understanding 01:01:25.540 --> 01:01:34.540 of digital community and, and how people can exist, um, and can operate and build relationships 01:01:34.540 --> 01:01:36.540 and, and quote unquote live. 01:01:36.540 --> 01:01:37.540 Okay. 01:01:37.540 --> 01:01:41.540 That may be controversial, but they're existing inside these digital communities. 01:01:41.540 --> 01:01:42.540 And I'm talking about WhatsApp. 01:01:42.540 --> 01:01:43.540 I'm talking about Slack. 01:01:43.540 --> 01:01:47.540 I'm talking about Facebook groups and talking virtual reality. 01:01:47.540 --> 01:01:53.540 I'm, I'm even talking video games where, where they're spending hours upon hours engaging 01:01:53.540 --> 01:01:58.540 and building relationships and quote unquote living in these spaces. 01:01:58.540 --> 01:02:03.540 And even if you're, if you're in the physical, and I would argue just to back up, you can build 01:02:03.540 --> 01:02:05.540 relationships digitally. 01:02:05.540 --> 01:02:09.540 Those relationships can lead to people finding Christ digitally. 01:02:09.540 --> 01:02:12.540 We see that we find discipleship even happening digitally. 01:02:12.540 --> 01:02:19.540 So the idea that you can't utilize that God cannot utilize digital community for discipleship 01:02:19.540 --> 01:02:22.540 and evangelism, we're already seeing that's happening. 01:02:22.540 --> 01:02:24.540 So why not use that tool? 01:02:24.540 --> 01:02:30.540 The people that are leaning into digital community at the three O level, oftentimes are not the 01:02:30.540 --> 01:02:35.540 people that would come to a physical building or are cautious about physical relationships 01:02:35.540 --> 01:02:36.540 in general. 01:02:36.540 --> 01:02:44.540 And so using digital to, this is a bad term and, uh, I would want to change this, but it's 01:02:44.540 --> 01:02:46.540 boil the frog slowly. 01:02:46.540 --> 01:02:54.540 It's, it's take time to build the relationship before you, you go into Christ before 01:02:54.540 --> 01:02:58.540 you, you implement that because what you're, what you're going to challenge them to do. 01:02:58.540 --> 01:03:00.540 There has to be relational equity. 01:03:00.540 --> 01:03:02.540 There has to be trust behind that. 01:03:02.540 --> 01:03:05.540 And so that's our, our stance of it. 01:03:05.540 --> 01:03:11.540 You're using digital community either to do discipleship as a standalone because your, your 01:03:11.540 --> 01:03:15.540 church believes in three O, uh, we believe in digital community, but if your church isn't 01:03:15.540 --> 01:03:20.540 there yet, your organization, you are not there yet, I would challenge you to maybe use digital 01:03:20.540 --> 01:03:26.540 community a little bit to start to build a relationship more before you get them into physical 01:03:26.540 --> 01:03:27.540 space. 01:03:27.540 --> 01:03:30.540 Like don't be adverse to digital community. 01:03:30.540 --> 01:03:33.540 Uh, instead recognize that it does have a purpose in it. 01:03:33.540 --> 01:03:39.540 Like maybe you're 2.5, you're not buying the whole thing about I'm going all in on digital 01:03:39.540 --> 01:03:41.540 community and every digital community deserves a church. 01:03:41.540 --> 01:03:42.540 You're not there. 01:03:42.540 --> 01:03:43.540 That's cool. 01:03:43.540 --> 01:03:48.540 If you're still driving to physical, there's benefits for you in digital community. 01:03:48.540 --> 01:03:53.540 Uh, and that's really the opportunity for you to, to multiply what you're doing because 01:03:53.540 --> 01:03:55.540 you're going to reach people in digital community. 01:03:55.540 --> 01:04:00.540 You're going to build trust in digital community that are not engaging with you right now in 01:04:00.540 --> 01:04:02.540 the physical realm. 01:04:02.540 --> 01:04:03.540 Yeah. 01:04:03.540 --> 01:04:11.540 Uh, uh, kind of a practical application of this that I see for pastors is similar to what 01:04:11.540 --> 01:04:12.540 you do, right? 01:04:12.540 --> 01:04:16.540 You have a open office that you do pretty regularly throughout the week. 01:04:16.540 --> 01:04:19.540 Um, you stream that on YouTube, right? 01:04:19.540 --> 01:04:25.540 And I think you're streaming that on multiple platforms, but the, the open offices. 01:04:25.540 --> 01:04:26.540 Yeah. 01:04:26.540 --> 01:04:28.540 I do open offices and I do streams. 01:04:28.540 --> 01:04:31.540 So streams I'll do on YouTube and then open offices. 01:04:31.540 --> 01:04:35.540 I, and my team are just in a Google meet, um, room. 01:04:35.540 --> 01:04:43.540 And, uh, so like this morning I had a, a Google meet, uh, where I had, uh, someone from, 01:04:43.540 --> 01:04:51.540 uh, uh, yeah, someone from Nigeria, someone from Sudan, someone from Czechoslovakia and someone 01:04:51.540 --> 01:04:55.540 from, uh, actually here in Florida, not that far from us in Naples. 01:04:55.540 --> 01:05:00.540 And so, yeah, I mean, and it was, they, they wanted to, they wanted to ask some questions. 01:05:00.540 --> 01:05:01.540 They shared their stories. 01:05:01.540 --> 01:05:04.540 They're, they're interested in being part of our, our equipping. 01:05:04.540 --> 01:05:11.540 Um, but what open offices does is it makes you available, uh, where, where people can, can come 01:05:11.540 --> 01:05:13.540 in and sometimes I'll have nobody. 01:05:13.540 --> 01:05:16.540 Sometimes I'll have, you know, eight to 10 people. 01:05:16.540 --> 01:05:21.540 And, and it's a, it's a circus trying to have conversations and in either way, it's fun. 01:05:21.540 --> 01:05:27.540 Uh, but yeah, I do, um, I'll probably do open offices two to three times a week. 01:05:27.540 --> 01:05:31.540 And my, my team does it periodically throughout the month. 01:05:31.540 --> 01:05:32.540 Yeah. 01:05:32.540 --> 01:05:39.540 To me, the practical application is like, what if pastors, um, had open offices, you know, 01:05:39.540 --> 01:05:43.540 essentially they're moving into someone's digital neighborhood and saying, I'm a, I'm just 01:05:43.540 --> 01:05:48.540 going to sit on this like picnic bench and I'm available to chat and just have conversation 01:05:48.540 --> 01:05:49.540 and build relationship. 01:05:49.540 --> 01:05:50.540 Yeah. 01:05:50.540 --> 01:05:54.540 You know, and then they let everybody know, like I'm here, I'm available. 01:05:54.540 --> 01:05:55.540 Right. 01:05:55.540 --> 01:06:02.540 Which is, to me feels like very incarnational mission to say to people in the neighborhood, 01:06:02.540 --> 01:06:03.540 I'm available. 01:06:03.540 --> 01:06:04.540 I'm here. 01:06:04.540 --> 01:06:05.540 No agenda. 01:06:05.540 --> 01:06:07.540 Just my door's open. 01:06:07.540 --> 01:06:08.540 Right. 01:06:08.540 --> 01:06:13.540 And, and, and, but it's, you're doing it in a way where people don't have to show up physically 01:06:13.540 --> 01:06:15.540 to the church building to meet with you. 01:06:15.540 --> 01:06:17.540 You know, you're, you're going to them. 01:06:17.540 --> 01:06:18.540 Yes. 01:06:18.540 --> 01:06:20.540 Just saying, Hey, I'm a, I'm a click away. 01:06:20.540 --> 01:06:21.540 Yeah. 01:06:21.540 --> 01:06:22.540 You know? 01:06:22.540 --> 01:06:29.540 Um, I think that could be really powerful way for pastors to live a kind of incarnational 01:06:29.540 --> 01:06:31.540 missional ethos. 01:06:31.540 --> 01:06:33.540 That's combined with digital. 01:06:33.540 --> 01:06:34.540 Yeah. 01:06:34.540 --> 01:06:35.540 Yeah. 01:06:35.540 --> 01:06:36.540 This is good. 01:06:36.540 --> 01:06:37.540 It's been a good conversation. 01:06:37.540 --> 01:06:38.540 Yeah. 01:06:38.540 --> 01:06:39.540 That's making yourself accessible. 01:06:39.540 --> 01:06:41.540 Um, which is huge in digital. 01:06:41.540 --> 01:06:44.540 Don't come with, if you do that, don't come with the script. 01:06:44.540 --> 01:06:45.540 Don't come with an agenda. 01:06:45.540 --> 01:06:47.540 Don't push your next sermon series. 01:06:47.540 --> 01:06:49.540 Honestly, don't even push small groups. 01:06:49.540 --> 01:06:50.540 Like listen. 01:06:50.540 --> 01:06:55.540 Well, even that, some of that is that some of that, I think when I hear you say 1.0, 2.0, 01:06:55.540 --> 01:07:08.540 3.0, I think the ethos behind the 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 is like 3.0, you know, 1.0 is like, I have an agenda that I'm pushing and I'm just trying to get it out there for people to know about it. 01:07:08.540 --> 01:07:09.540 Right. 01:07:09.540 --> 01:07:10.540 Yeah. 01:07:10.540 --> 01:07:21.540 Um, 2.0 is like, I still have an agenda and I want you to know about it, but I'm empowering people in our community to help promote that agenda. 01:07:21.540 --> 01:07:22.540 Right. 01:07:22.540 --> 01:07:25.540 But then 3.0, 3.0 is a much more. 01:07:25.540 --> 01:07:26.540 Hands off. 01:07:26.540 --> 01:07:36.540 Open handed, holistic, like, let's just build, let's just build a relationship and see what God does and let's connect and let's, um, yeah. 01:07:36.540 --> 01:07:37.540 Yeah. 01:07:37.540 --> 01:07:38.540 It's yeah. 01:07:38.540 --> 01:07:41.540 It's as digital evolves. 01:07:41.540 --> 01:07:46.540 I mean, obviously what's behind digital, like we don't get from 1.0 to 3.0. 01:07:46.540 --> 01:07:49.540 It's not like there's a, uh, uh, AI technology. 01:07:49.540 --> 01:07:51.540 That's like making them at them. 01:07:51.540 --> 01:07:54.540 It's people who are developing the technologies. 01:07:54.540 --> 01:07:57.540 It's culture that shifts the technologies. 01:07:57.540 --> 01:08:00.540 And we see God using it. 01:08:00.540 --> 01:08:01.540 Yeah. 01:08:01.540 --> 01:08:04.540 In a way that makes a huge impact. 01:08:04.540 --> 01:08:05.540 Yeah. 01:08:05.540 --> 01:08:06.540 3.0. 01:08:06.540 --> 01:08:07.540 It's so good. 01:08:07.540 --> 01:08:10.540 Jesse, your, your, your interpretation and you're adding of one, two and three. 01:08:10.540 --> 01:08:13.540 Um, you know, 3.0 is a decentralized mindset. 01:08:13.540 --> 01:08:18.540 And so, yes, it's not, it's not pushing my agenda. 01:08:18.540 --> 01:08:22.540 It's, it's what is God calling you to do and how can I help? 01:08:22.540 --> 01:08:29.540 And so like having that decentralized mindset digitally, remember it's about small conversations. 01:08:29.540 --> 01:08:30.540 It's not big conversations. 01:08:30.540 --> 01:08:31.540 It's, it's, it's whispers. 01:08:31.540 --> 01:08:33.540 It's not, it's not megaphones. 01:08:33.540 --> 01:08:36.540 And so as, as a result of this, oh my gosh. 01:08:36.540 --> 01:08:42.540 And this, this is where it's like incarnational leaders are, are my opinion. 01:08:42.540 --> 01:08:47.540 Are looking at digital through the wrong lens. 01:08:47.540 --> 01:08:52.540 They're looking at through the lens of how the mega church is operating and they're trying 01:08:52.540 --> 01:08:55.540 to apply that to their ministry, but the tool is a tool. 01:08:55.540 --> 01:09:00.540 It can be used in different ways and looking at it through a different lens in a different 01:09:00.540 --> 01:09:01.540 light. 01:09:01.540 --> 01:09:02.540 Oh my gosh. 01:09:02.540 --> 01:09:08.540 The power it was, I've actually, it's funny for, for a season, I was actually really driven 01:09:08.540 --> 01:09:15.540 to do a cohort of, of micro church leaders to help them understand how to do digital better. 01:09:15.540 --> 01:09:20.540 Because they're, my opinion, they're missing so much power and so much potential. 01:09:20.540 --> 01:09:23.540 And, and, and I'm not, I'm not trying to be insulted or anything. 01:09:23.540 --> 01:09:26.540 They're just looking at it through the wrong lens. 01:09:26.540 --> 01:09:28.540 And, and it, and it's a pivot of mindset. 01:09:28.540 --> 01:09:33.540 They're seeing, they're seeing the tools as weapons. 01:09:33.540 --> 01:09:37.540 And we're trying to highlight and say, no, the tools aren't weapons. 01:09:37.540 --> 01:09:38.540 They're gardening tools. 01:09:38.540 --> 01:09:39.540 Yeah. 01:09:39.540 --> 01:09:40.540 Oh, that's good. 01:09:40.540 --> 01:09:41.540 These are gardening tools. 01:09:41.540 --> 01:09:42.540 These are gardening tools. 01:09:42.540 --> 01:09:47.540 And we can cultivate a beautiful ecosystem. 01:09:47.540 --> 01:09:49.540 If we use the tools properly. 01:09:49.540 --> 01:09:56.540 Certainly many people have taken gardening tools and turned them into weapons of warfare. 01:09:56.540 --> 01:10:03.540 But just because somebody has taken a pick or an ax and turned it into a weapon of warfare, 01:10:03.540 --> 01:10:06.540 doesn't mean that's how you have to use it. 01:10:06.540 --> 01:10:16.540 And we, I would advocate and say that what's, what we're trying to do here is highlight how the tools are actually meant to be used. 01:10:17.540 --> 01:10:23.540 That they're more aligned with incarnational mission than perhaps they had considered. 01:10:23.540 --> 01:10:24.540 Yeah. 01:10:24.540 --> 01:10:26.540 Hey everybody, Jeff here wrapping up. 01:10:26.540 --> 01:10:34.540 I hope you understood and gained new insight on the web one, web two, web three mentality. 01:10:34.540 --> 01:10:41.540 Not just on how it's, it organizationally informs how it pushes agendas organizationally. 01:10:41.540 --> 01:10:48.540 It pushes agendas through individuals and maybe even starts to recognize the decentralized mindset of web three. 01:10:48.540 --> 01:10:56.540 That was my, wow, that was my aha moment when Jesse made that spin and applied that towards the end. 01:10:56.540 --> 01:11:05.540 And so listen, if you're incarnational ministry, if you're a micro, I really do believe you're missing something here. 01:11:05.540 --> 01:11:10.540 Physical churches, I think you're missing something here. 01:11:10.540 --> 01:11:17.540 If you're not even comfortable with web three going all in, consider a two five where you're just leaning a little more into digital community. 01:11:17.540 --> 01:11:21.540 And, and I'll bet you will see a massive result from that. 01:11:21.540 --> 01:11:23.540 Reach out to us at the church digital. 01:11:23.540 --> 01:11:30.540 Of course we would love to help along the way, but I'm going to land the plane for Jesse from digital missions project and the TCD board. 01:11:30.540 --> 01:11:32.540 This is Jeff with the church digital. 01:11:32.540 --> 01:11:36.540 Thanks for hanging out with us today on the stream and we'll see you next time on the show. 01:11:36.540 --> 01:11:37.540 Have a good one. 01:11:37.540 --> 01:11:38.540 Have a good one.