WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:24.140 All right. Hey, welcome everybody to the church digital podcast. We are chilling out, man. It's a chill vibe. This Tuesday was a holiday here in America, Memorial Day, Memorial Day, Memorial Day, Memorial Day, and I was I was actually out of town for a wedding, hanging out with a family up in northern Florida where there was no Internet. 00:00:24.140 --> 00:00:44.700 And so God bless like people that live in very rural areas that do not have Internet or cell phone. I just I don't understand that that mindset. My you know, I'm all for like being present. I'm horrible at it, but I'm all for it. 00:00:44.700 --> 00:00:53.580 But I just I don't I don't get the rural nature of things in 2025. But that's that's my bag. It's not yours. 00:00:53.660 --> 00:01:02.500 Hey, so we're hanging out here with the TCD podcast. Last week was the town hall meeting. A lot of energy, a lot of really cool things coming up with with the church digital. 00:01:02.500 --> 00:01:12.240 So we heard from you. Check out the results of the church dot digital slash poll, the church dot digital slash poll. 00:01:12.460 --> 00:01:22.040 But but we are we really kind of chilling out here in between town hall and the new season that's kicking off next week. 00:01:22.460 --> 00:01:28.960 We're going to be doing a season on equipping partners and empowering tools. 00:01:28.960 --> 00:01:41.080 And so we're going to be digging into a lot of the the software, a lot of the the tools and honestly, a lot of ministries that are that are out there that are wanting to support digital missionaries like you. 00:01:41.080 --> 00:01:46.120 And so it's going to be a very practical summer as we're getting into the weeds, so to speak. 00:01:46.120 --> 00:01:53.080 Actually, I was told by my South African friends, we are not allowed to say phrases like in the weeds. 00:01:53.080 --> 00:02:03.280 We're not allowed to get into the weeds because in South Africa, that literally means smoking pot, not not implied like it would be here in America. 00:02:03.280 --> 00:02:07.200 But it literally means I'm going out back to smoke a doobie. 00:02:07.200 --> 00:02:18.600 And so I I said that phrase to to our ministry partners over Project Exodus and dude shot me a sideways look like it was it was like the side, the evil eye. 00:02:18.600 --> 00:02:20.160 I was like, what did I do? 00:02:20.160 --> 00:02:25.160 You know, I'm embarrassing myself enough without all these cultural differences. 00:02:25.720 --> 00:02:29.060 And yeah, sure enough, I just steps square in that thing. 00:02:29.500 --> 00:02:30.980 And so it's good stuff. 00:02:31.440 --> 00:02:35.640 And so but as we're heading into it, we've we've got some of our friends hanging out with us today. 00:02:35.780 --> 00:02:40.620 We've we've got the Steve Reed, Steve Reed's hanging in here, flat cap as well. 00:02:40.620 --> 00:02:50.000 But I tell you what, I'm looking forward to this conversation as part of the first digital missionary conference. 00:02:51.140 --> 00:02:55.180 I heard echoes in the wind, almost like a whisper. 00:02:55.700 --> 00:03:00.520 Hey, Jeff, did you know the Catholic Church is doing something with digital missionaries? 00:03:00.740 --> 00:03:10.520 And my response was, no, no, I did not know the Catholic Church was doing something with with digital missionaries. 00:03:10.520 --> 00:03:13.100 And sure enough, I got I got introduced. 00:03:13.460 --> 00:03:18.440 Josh Packard has been been working with the guests that I have in this conversation today. 00:03:19.580 --> 00:03:23.960 Hey, dear kitty for, I don't know, a season. 00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:25.380 We'll get it getting more into it. 00:03:25.420 --> 00:03:34.300 But I really started to discover, I don't know, the Catholic version of Jeff Reed over on that side. 00:03:34.360 --> 00:03:40.940 The guy that's been helping the Catholic Church, exploring, experiment with with digital missionaries in that space. 00:03:40.980 --> 00:03:43.020 Are one of the people that that's been doing that. 00:03:43.020 --> 00:03:48.020 And so I jumped on a couple Zoom calls, Google Meet calls. 00:03:48.140 --> 00:03:51.020 We almost met together in physical space. 00:03:51.700 --> 00:03:54.660 And I was in Dallas where he lives for a stretch. 00:03:54.860 --> 00:03:58.620 And we just could not get the schedules to align. 00:03:58.960 --> 00:04:11.240 But I told him, I was like, hey, let's do a stream and and definitely want to do a podcast recording with you to share some of these ideas about what the Catholic Church is doing and what they're learning in the space moving forward. 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:16.460 And so, ladies and gentlemen, for the conversation, let me bring in Jose. 00:04:17.260 --> 00:04:18.380 Jose, how are you, my friend? 00:04:19.500 --> 00:04:20.440 Doing good, Jeff. 00:04:20.740 --> 00:04:22.260 Thank you for having me over. 00:04:22.400 --> 00:04:23.620 And yes, hi. 00:04:23.740 --> 00:04:27.760 I don't know if Josh Packard is listening, but we're doing a great job at Future of Faith. 00:04:28.400 --> 00:04:29.440 Thank you for everything, Josh. 00:04:30.320 --> 00:04:32.440 Yeah, I doubt Josh is listening. 00:04:32.620 --> 00:04:34.820 I think Josh is a little above my pay grade. 00:04:35.180 --> 00:04:38.100 But no, it's we were we were blown away. 00:04:38.100 --> 00:04:44.040 Josh was was interviewed as part of our conference, digital missionary conference. 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:47.060 And it just was it was an incredible section. 00:04:47.580 --> 00:04:57.260 One of our one of the digital pastors, one of the digital church planters names Josh Harris, Dr. 00:04:57.380 --> 00:04:58.200 John Harris, Dr. 00:04:58.320 --> 00:04:58.600 John. 00:04:59.100 --> 00:05:02.720 And he is obsessed with Josh Packard. 00:05:03.180 --> 00:05:08.060 And so bringing the two of them together like it was fanboy 101. 00:05:08.380 --> 00:05:09.600 It was was really a lot of fun. 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:16.840 But so let me let me just ask this question, because I am I'm way out of my league here. 00:05:16.840 --> 00:05:22.600 And like I know flat cap and Steve are both asking like they want to want to learn from this. 00:05:22.600 --> 00:05:25.360 So, you know, let's just kick it right off. 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:31.220 The Catholic Church is doing stuff with digital missionaries like drop some education here. 00:05:31.300 --> 00:05:36.600 What what are you guys up to where can where can we start? 00:05:37.240 --> 00:05:44.380 Well, first of all, let's say there's there's two different ways to approach what you just said. 00:05:44.380 --> 00:05:44.580 Right. 00:05:44.580 --> 00:05:51.300 Because since the Internet began by social media, of course, Catholics have been doing stuff. 00:05:51.300 --> 00:06:16.380 You know, the thing, let's say the difference right now is that for some years now, let's say institutional church, right, is recognizing what these people were doing behind the behind the platform, behind an account and whatever YouTube or Instagram, TikTok or whatever. 00:06:16.380 --> 00:06:31.400 Right. So that's the face that we're in, but of course, since the beginning of Internet, since my space and ICQ and all the different things that existed before the social media that ICQ, wow, that was a throwback. 00:06:31.400 --> 00:06:32.400 Yeah, thank you. 00:06:32.400 --> 00:06:36.400 Did you hear that when I said ICQ? 00:06:36.400 --> 00:06:37.400 Did you hear that? 00:06:37.400 --> 00:06:38.400 Yes. 00:06:38.400 --> 00:06:43.400 That was very peculiar messaging sound in your head. 00:06:43.400 --> 00:06:44.400 I did. 00:06:44.400 --> 00:06:46.400 I won't try to mimic it. 00:06:46.400 --> 00:06:49.400 Well, we all heard it if you're old enough. 00:06:49.400 --> 00:06:52.400 If you know, you know. 00:06:52.400 --> 00:06:53.400 Exactly. 00:06:53.400 --> 00:06:54.400 Exactly. 00:06:54.400 --> 00:07:05.400 So the thing is, of course, there's always been people trying to evangelize online and form it and, well, accompany others to the church online. 00:07:05.400 --> 00:07:07.400 That has been going on for a while. 00:07:07.400 --> 00:07:18.400 Some of them have been calling themselves, whatever, Catholic content creators, Catholic evangelizers, online evangelizers, some even digital missionaries for almost a decade now. 00:07:18.400 --> 00:07:22.400 But the thing that we have right now is the institutional church. 00:07:22.400 --> 00:07:30.400 And with that, I mean, the structure, you know, we're a very hierarchical church, a very hierarchical structure. 00:07:30.400 --> 00:07:40.400 Yes, the Vatican, but also every diocese, which is almost always a city or a couple of cities or a region, right? 00:07:40.400 --> 00:07:43.400 It's a bishop, which is a successor of the apostles. 00:07:43.400 --> 00:07:47.400 And it's like very hierarchical in a lot of senses. 00:07:47.400 --> 00:08:10.400 So that part of the church has been opening, let's say, size for the last maybe, well, a bit more than a couple of years, several years now, trying to see what's happening there with people who are doing this because they feel it's their calling, who are reaching people that the institutional church can't reach, right? 00:08:10.400 --> 00:08:38.400 And also who are, who are there trying out, experimenting at different ways of getting Christ out there and, well, through His love and mercy heal everyone who's out there in what we call the existential peripheries of the internet, that they might be suffering or just searching for meaning, for purpose, for love, for truth, for so many things that they can't find and they're just doom scrolling or addicted or whatever. 00:08:38.400 --> 00:08:40.400 Well, we have to be there. 00:08:40.400 --> 00:08:42.400 And the church is recognizing we have been there. 00:08:42.400 --> 00:08:57.400 Now we have to recognize them and, well, make them part, let's say, of the official structure without taking out their, let's say, independency and without trying to control them, et cetera, et cetera. 00:08:57.400 --> 00:09:03.500 And I could talk hours about that, but, well, you know, just that's, that's a phase that we are in right now as a Catholic church. 00:09:04.400 --> 00:09:05.060 That's beautiful. 00:09:05.400 --> 00:09:13.280 So, you know, there, there's a lot that, that I want to dig, dig into to follow up on, but, but let's, let's back up. 00:09:13.400 --> 00:09:24.720 You've got, and I don't mean any disrespect by this, but you've got a new boss, the previous, you know, Pope, Pope Francis passed away maybe a month ago at this point. 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:30.080 It feels like it's, it's, it's, it's been a little while and you got a, an American now, Pope Leo. 00:09:31.280 --> 00:09:36.340 I know Pope Francis was a little more comfortable in, in digital. 00:09:36.340 --> 00:09:42.480 And that's, was where you seem to get more institutional movements forward. 00:09:44.100 --> 00:09:47.800 Is the new person, is he vibing as well? 00:09:47.800 --> 00:09:53.700 Or what is, what is the, maybe the digital look like in the new, new organization? 00:09:55.100 --> 00:09:59.740 Well, two things, well, several things, but let's say starting with two. 00:10:01.900 --> 00:10:11.400 Francis understood the power of gestures, the power of being out there, being the good Samaritan out there. 00:10:11.540 --> 00:10:19.160 He, you, he loved that parable and, and asked us digital missionaries so much to try to be that good Samaritan online. 00:10:19.160 --> 00:10:31.540 And, and, and so many things that he taught, told us, let's say, or invited us to be, but for instance, he didn't own a cell phone before, before becoming Pope, right? 00:10:31.900 --> 00:10:33.160 He, no kidding. 00:10:33.160 --> 00:10:36.020 He was 88 when he died, right? 00:10:36.360 --> 00:10:36.560 Wow. 00:10:36.560 --> 00:10:38.440 And he was in the job for 12 years. 00:10:38.600 --> 00:10:40.700 So he was pretty old when he got there, right? 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:49.520 So now Pope Leo, Leo the 14th, Robert Prevost, what's his, what's his name? 00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:51.880 He owns an iPhone, right? 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:53.420 He has an Apple watch. 00:10:53.880 --> 00:10:54.940 He plays Wordle. 00:10:55.460 --> 00:10:58.240 He, like, he, he's on WhatsApp. 00:10:58.640 --> 00:10:59.260 He's on Gmail. 00:10:59.640 --> 00:11:06.180 He's like, so it's a very different mindset, let's say, just, just having that. 00:11:06.460 --> 00:11:15.240 So, so yes, Pope Francis knew about the gestures and the reality, but he also admitted that he didn't understand much about the digital culture. 00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:19.720 And that's why he started relying a lot on people around him. 00:11:19.800 --> 00:11:28.840 And I can tell a lot of stories about that, but, but, but, but one, one thing right now, that's really cool about our current Pope, right? 00:11:29.220 --> 00:11:38.520 That he's a missionary, as you know, or as you, I don't know if anyone listening knows, like, yes, he was born in Chicago, but he was a missionary in Peru, right? 00:11:38.520 --> 00:11:39.940 He spent a couple decades in Peru. 00:11:40.060 --> 00:11:42.240 He has a Peruvian passport, right? 00:11:43.240 --> 00:11:51.060 So he, he became a bishop and was ordained there and was sent there in Peru because that's where he was a missionary, right? 00:11:51.760 --> 00:11:55.060 And we're talking about digital missionaries, right? 00:11:55.300 --> 00:11:57.180 We're talking about the online world. 00:11:57.960 --> 00:11:58.900 He's a missionary. 00:11:59.240 --> 00:12:00.400 He has a missionary heart. 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:06.260 And before that, he was a, he was a, before being a bishop, he was in charge. 00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:08.480 We call it the superior general, right? 00:12:08.960 --> 00:12:14.360 Of his religious order, the Agustinians, who have been around for almost a thousand years, right? 00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:20.200 And, and he traveled everywhere in the world where there was a monastery of Agustinians, right? 00:12:20.760 --> 00:12:26.240 So he knows the realities all over the world by issues. 00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:33.620 He has, he has been, uh, uh, yeah, he's, he's very much into all the realities in the world. 00:12:33.620 --> 00:12:43.240 And also last, last year during October, if you recall, Jeff, I, I spent the month at the Vatican again, uh, during the center of the synodality. 00:12:43.560 --> 00:12:48.540 Well, Cardinal Prevost, who was Bob Leo's name, right? 00:12:48.780 --> 00:12:51.260 He was on the same table as I was for a couple of weeks. 00:12:51.900 --> 00:12:53.440 So, yeah. 00:12:53.560 --> 00:13:01.540 So we shared table and that means Monday till Saturday, this is the morning, which means we started prayer and everything in the morning. 00:13:01.740 --> 00:13:07.240 We started each session like around 8.45 after, after prayer and everything in the morning. 00:13:07.520 --> 00:13:13.460 Sometimes we had mass, sometimes it was just different prayers and then all the way till 7.30 p.m. 00:13:13.620 --> 00:13:16.060 So that's Monday till Saturday, right? 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:18.220 Two weeks, I was in the same table. 00:13:18.540 --> 00:13:21.740 Of course, it was 10 of us in the table, people from all over the world. 00:13:22.380 --> 00:13:26.940 Our particular table was the language was English, but we had Africans, Asians. 00:13:27.660 --> 00:13:30.720 Well, I was the only one from a Latin American country. 00:13:31.160 --> 00:13:32.820 We had Europeans, right? 00:13:32.940 --> 00:13:34.860 We have, we had people from all over. 00:13:35.400 --> 00:13:47.700 And, well, as you can imagine, I always brought up and my agenda, let's say, was trying to put the online, the digital mission front and center. 00:13:48.100 --> 00:14:02.100 Because in my mind and so many others, we thought it was or we think it was a response to what Francis, Francis was invited us to be a church that goes out of itself, that goes forth where people are at, right? 00:14:03.460 --> 00:14:08.640 So people are at, right now, online, well, that's where we need to be. 00:14:09.040 --> 00:14:10.000 And who goes there? 00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:11.520 Missionaries, et cetera, et cetera. 00:14:11.660 --> 00:14:14.000 So I talked a lot about that in my table. 00:14:14.700 --> 00:14:17.380 And Pope, well, the now Pope was there, right? 00:14:17.900 --> 00:14:21.500 And let's say that we talked a lot about these sort of things. 00:14:22.280 --> 00:14:33.440 I was in Rome, I came just a week ago from Rome, and I asked, I still can't tell details, cannot tell details of what he said, let's say, of what was said inside. 00:14:33.460 --> 00:14:36.600 It was supposed to be Chatham rules, so now it doesn't work. 00:14:36.880 --> 00:14:41.320 If I had said, if I hadn't said it, I was with the Pope, I could tell you. 00:14:41.420 --> 00:14:53.300 Someone in the table, but now that you said, I can't really say, but let's say he's supportive 100% of the online work that we're doing, that we're trying to do, 00:14:53.300 --> 00:15:03.760 that so many thousands and thousands of Catholics are trying to do online, to introduce people to Christ, basically, to his love, to his mercy, and walk with them towards the truth. 00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:05.860 That's what we're doing, right, online. 00:15:06.400 --> 00:15:13.080 So, we're just, it's not a month, we're just three weeks into the pontificate of Pope Leo. 00:15:13.760 --> 00:15:24.680 He's a very different kind of, let's say, personality, character, way of doing things that Pope Francis, he takes things more, let's say, slow. 00:15:25.220 --> 00:15:30.020 He's not, he doesn't speak that much out of that, just off the cuff, right? 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:38.740 So, it's going to be a very different thing, but I'm sure because he's missionary, and because of what I talked with him, and how I see him vote, 00:15:38.920 --> 00:15:46.680 and how I saw him act within those two weeks working with him last October, he's pretty much going to be supportive, 00:15:47.220 --> 00:15:54.000 and he's going to be doing a lot of things to really see the internet as the new missionary frontier, 00:15:54.320 --> 00:16:01.400 and I could expand a lot of the work during the synodality around that, but, well, I wouldn't put him into, 00:16:01.600 --> 00:16:04.920 Francis knew what he was doing, and this guy doesn't seem to know what he's doing. 00:16:05.260 --> 00:16:06.180 I think the opposite. 00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:11.400 This guy has been using it a lot more in first hand, and he still has his iPhone. 00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:13.300 He still has his Apple Watch. 00:16:13.620 --> 00:16:17.200 He still responds to Gmail, and I'm not saying that. 00:16:17.220 --> 00:16:18.620 It's not just, I heard, right? 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:22.300 Like, I know he still responds to Gmail, right? 00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:23.600 Because he has responded. 00:16:24.640 --> 00:16:25.340 Very cool. 00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:26.860 So, very cool. 00:16:27.060 --> 00:16:28.860 So, very excited about what's coming. 00:16:29.600 --> 00:16:37.480 So, you all, on the evangelicals, well, at least, I'm going to say my footprint, my experience. 00:16:38.340 --> 00:16:44.960 You know, I've spent decades working with the established churches, trying to help them. 00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:54.180 Now, I get the feeling, like, the organizational structure that I've worked with is much more decentralized. 00:16:54.800 --> 00:17:00.020 Like, there's not the organizational structure up high that you have. 00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:11.900 And so, it's almost going individual with churches or occasionally a denomination, but there's not nearly the alignment that necessarily. 00:17:12.620 --> 00:17:19.860 And so, almost arms up in the air, I can't get the churches to see the big picture of this. 00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:32.020 I'm kind of giving up, and I'm starting to now work with individuals and missionaries and starting to create more movements outside of the church. 00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:39.780 Now, globally, there does seem to be more openness to then what you and I are used to seeing maybe in the East a little bit. 00:17:39.780 --> 00:17:51.440 But you're painting a different picture, or maybe, you know, the Pope sees it, but maybe archbishops do or don't, and there's some control. 00:17:51.940 --> 00:18:03.240 And so, maybe talk a little bit about some of the organizational wins and struggles, maybe, as you're trying to create this digital movement globally. 00:18:04.120 --> 00:18:04.600 Cool. 00:18:05.800 --> 00:18:15.400 There's, well, you said, no, we have, let's say, the Pope and the people around him that help him, let's say, in the church's government. 00:18:15.880 --> 00:18:20.700 At the end, the Vatican State, like, it's a state-like, right, the city-state. 00:18:21.540 --> 00:18:30.680 And also, there's a lot of things that need to be managed, let's say, not just in properties and temporal goods, et cetera, et cetera, 00:18:30.980 --> 00:18:38.920 but in so many ways, to appoint new bishops, to help countries in need, so many things that are done with the hospitals, with schools. 00:18:39.120 --> 00:18:46.200 Like, there needs to be a lot of structure, and some places, like a lot of countries, of course, can't sustain that structure. 00:18:46.360 --> 00:18:55.420 So, that needs to come from somewhere, and that, of course, comes from the Vatican, or the Vatican is the one that manages from rich countries to poor countries, 00:18:55.540 --> 00:18:57.100 and missionaries from here and there, et cetera. 00:18:57.100 --> 00:19:04.520 Now, again, with that in mind, and yes, we are very hierarchical in structure, 00:19:04.940 --> 00:19:13.860 then there's the other issue that we, like, every bishop can trace their, like, who ordained them, let's say, all the way to the apostles, you know? 00:19:14.320 --> 00:19:26.200 So, that's a cool thing, but that also means that, let's say, the Catholic Church has uniformity in doctrine, right? 00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:27.580 And liturgy, right? 00:19:28.280 --> 00:19:31.820 In terms of faith and morals, to some degree. 00:19:32.380 --> 00:19:36.140 But then, every bishop, basically, is its own king. 00:19:37.140 --> 00:19:51.260 So, yes, changing a thing of doctrine that we have thought to be true for now two millennia, right, won't be easy, right? 00:19:51.260 --> 00:19:59.700 That won't happen, changing things that we have thought for centuries or millennia, that won't happen, right? 00:20:00.020 --> 00:20:08.580 Even though a bishop or several bishops want, or even though the Pope wants to, there's going to be pushback and, let's say, locks to keep that. 00:20:10.800 --> 00:20:14.120 But, on the other hand, and the liturgy, same thing, right? 00:20:14.180 --> 00:20:26.920 We have an ordinary form of the mass, and then we have approved rites, depending for the church in the east, for different rites that have been, again, for more than a thousand years, having their, or hundreds of years, having their own rites. 00:20:27.260 --> 00:20:31.100 But they're approved by, let's say, the Vatican, et cetera, et cetera. 00:20:31.460 --> 00:20:40.480 So, here in Dallas, or in Mexico City, or in a town, in wherever, we follow the exact same rubric of the liturgy, right? 00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:46.600 The exact same rubric, the same parts of the Bible are read every day, the same parts, like, all that stuff. 00:20:46.660 --> 00:20:49.660 The only thing that changes is the homily section, right? 00:20:50.520 --> 00:21:01.120 With that in mind, there's not, there's usually, it's not like, okay, the Pope said one thing, and now every bishop gets it as if it was a rule. 00:21:01.360 --> 00:21:10.160 Or now the government, the central government, the federation, the federal government, now gave us this, and now we have to, let's say, make it. 00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:12.920 Make it a reality in our own local context. 00:21:13.740 --> 00:21:17.200 Sadly, in some senses, it doesn't work like that, right? 00:21:17.860 --> 00:21:18.200 Why? 00:21:18.500 --> 00:21:26.540 Because every local reality has its own different ways of doing things, and the church is very respectful of that. 00:21:26.900 --> 00:21:36.560 There's a lot of free will going on, let's say, a lot of liberty in how each bishop executes their authority, in how they should do. 00:21:36.560 --> 00:21:47.800 Of course, we have a law, a code of canon law, that has different things on how to, but they're very level here, not on the day-to-day, right? 00:21:48.280 --> 00:22:00.900 So when the Pope talks about, let's say, the judicial mission, and about things like that, then the bishops need to see how that is landed into their own reality, right? 00:22:01.040 --> 00:22:06.700 And that can happen in a year, in some cases, and that can happen in a hundred years in some others, right? 00:22:06.700 --> 00:22:15.500 Like, sadly, like, so let's say the Pope promotes the judicial mission, doesn't mean that's going to be now in every diocese all over the world. 00:22:15.900 --> 00:22:22.360 That's why we need to work then and convince the bishops, and that's one of the things that we're trying to do. 00:22:22.360 --> 00:22:36.740 As you said, like, yes, we that try to do, let's say, evangelization online or catechesis or whatever we're doing online, we know time is often essence, right? 00:22:36.820 --> 00:22:38.780 And we know we want to run. 00:22:39.400 --> 00:22:43.960 And sadly, the institutional church is very slow. 00:22:44.520 --> 00:22:46.800 Time is not a thing for them. 00:22:47.480 --> 00:22:49.940 And there's so many jokes about that. 00:22:50.580 --> 00:22:54.040 The thing is, yes, there's no pressure in anything. 00:22:54.620 --> 00:23:00.260 And 2,000 years, and still this thing continues, despite our best efforts, sometimes it seems. 00:23:00.860 --> 00:23:04.680 So everything, like, everyone takes their time. 00:23:04.980 --> 00:23:12.040 But we're seeing a lot of things changing, let's say, of bishops being more open 00:23:12.040 --> 00:23:19.540 and trying to see what incorporating a digital mission into their diocese means. 00:23:19.860 --> 00:23:22.360 Diocese, what that means all over the world. 00:23:22.840 --> 00:23:30.420 And sadly, us that are here, that's even easier sometimes the rest of the world than in the U.S. 00:23:31.260 --> 00:23:36.680 The rest of the world, we're not used to having budgets and to having a lot of things, right? 00:23:37.180 --> 00:23:41.460 And so it's easier here, budgets, planning. 00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:43.360 And, oh, we already have the 10-year plan. 00:23:43.500 --> 00:23:46.020 Oh, we already have the budget for the next five years. 00:23:46.440 --> 00:23:49.340 Like, Latin America, Asia, Africa. 00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:50.940 There's no budgets. 00:23:51.080 --> 00:23:51.940 We don't have money. 00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:57.920 Bishop has an intuition that this is from the Holy Spirit, that this is a way of responding 00:23:57.920 --> 00:24:05.760 to today's, let's say, today's issues, that we need to be out there online, that we need 00:24:05.760 --> 00:24:09.920 to be with digital missionaries, that they need to be recognized, that they need to be 00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:14.660 accompanied, that they need to be formed, and they need to be incorporated somehow in the 00:24:14.660 --> 00:24:15.600 life of the church. 00:24:16.160 --> 00:24:19.660 And that has been different ways. 00:24:19.720 --> 00:24:23.240 And I can talk a lot of different ways of how we're doing it all over the world. 00:24:23.680 --> 00:24:25.660 Sometimes it's a digital office. 00:24:25.900 --> 00:24:28.120 Sometimes it's within the evangelization. 00:24:28.500 --> 00:24:29.780 Sometimes it's within communication. 00:24:30.340 --> 00:24:32.280 It starts with the simplest of things, right? 00:24:32.500 --> 00:24:33.700 So there's a lot of ways. 00:24:35.220 --> 00:24:41.120 There's this myth about, okay, the Pope says something, and now the whole structure gets it. 00:24:41.120 --> 00:24:44.540 And now you have an office, and now it's done exactly that same way. 00:24:44.860 --> 00:24:45.940 That doesn't happen. 00:24:46.560 --> 00:24:48.420 Sadly, in some cases like this, right? 00:24:48.580 --> 00:24:56.160 So, but at the end, the bishop is the one that decides to incorporate this, or so many 00:24:56.160 --> 00:24:58.500 other things into the life of the diocese, right? 00:24:58.820 --> 00:25:07.220 You know, I've always felt that the missional mindset, the missionary is going to be far more 00:25:07.220 --> 00:25:11.500 embracing, and we found this to be true, that they're going to be far more embracing of new 00:25:11.500 --> 00:25:16.520 technologies and new ways, because they're not, the missionary is not held to the baggage 00:25:16.520 --> 00:25:23.300 of ecclesiology, of the hundreds, of the thousands of years, like, you know, they just, they 00:25:23.300 --> 00:25:26.280 don't, they can be far more adept to it. 00:25:26.360 --> 00:25:33.160 And anything, there's a pastor, oh my gosh, I just blanked on his name, Craig Rochelle, 00:25:33.540 --> 00:25:38.980 he says, he's very missional mindset, and he says, everything short is sin, you know, for 00:25:38.980 --> 00:25:39.460 the kingdom. 00:25:39.720 --> 00:25:42.160 Like, you know, it doesn't matter, let's just, let's just do it. 00:25:42.660 --> 00:25:48.660 And, and it's interesting that church, Life.Church is very evangelical and very digital friendly. 00:25:49.160 --> 00:25:53.260 But let me, let me ask, because, because one of the things, and I'm curious, I don't think 00:25:53.260 --> 00:25:54.120 I asked you this before. 00:25:55.980 --> 00:26:02.180 One of the things that, that really kind of stretches the limits, uh, here in the U.S. 00:26:02.180 --> 00:26:09.440 is the idea of a church existing entirely in digital space, like without a footprint, without 00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:12.740 a digital, without a physical footprint, 100% digital. 00:26:13.300 --> 00:26:21.580 Uh, have you bumped into a, a Catholic church existing entirely in digital, entirely in the 00:26:21.580 --> 00:26:21.860 internet? 00:26:22.580 --> 00:26:27.860 Um, like how, how do though, cause, cause you're like these, these cathedrals, they're, 00:26:27.920 --> 00:26:33.120 they're, they're sacred grounds and you've got iconography all over with the stained glass 00:26:33.120 --> 00:26:40.960 and, and, and like, you know, my, it's, it's a very physical, it feels, um, uh, process 00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:44.220 of, of what you go through during, on, on Sundays. 00:26:44.220 --> 00:26:49.420 I gotta imagine that doesn't translate well digitally or, or, or does it like, what, what 00:26:49.420 --> 00:26:50.940 does that conversation look like for you? 00:26:51.580 --> 00:26:52.580 Yeah. 00:26:52.580 --> 00:26:53.580 Yeah. 00:26:53.580 --> 00:26:57.900 That, that's one of the, let's say fears and also one of the things that we have been 00:26:57.900 --> 00:27:00.660 discovering and what you're saying has different levels, right? 00:27:00.660 --> 00:27:06.520 Canonically, let's say the jurisdiction of how these would happen, they could work, but 00:27:06.520 --> 00:27:11.720 also we are like, first of all, of course, we all know, or Christians, we, we all believe 00:27:11.720 --> 00:27:13.300 Christ like became incarnate, right? 00:27:13.300 --> 00:27:14.660 He is not an avatar, right? 00:27:14.660 --> 00:27:16.020 He's not a virtual whatever. 00:27:16.020 --> 00:27:17.020 No. 00:27:17.020 --> 00:27:18.020 He became flesh. 00:27:18.020 --> 00:27:19.020 No. 00:27:19.020 --> 00:27:20.020 So that's the thing. 00:27:20.020 --> 00:27:26.020 And, and, and for us Catholics in the sacraments are essential to being Catholic. 00:27:26.020 --> 00:27:27.020 No. 00:27:27.020 --> 00:27:34.020 So, so when I say the sacraments, I'm talking about, of course, we have seven sacraments, 00:27:34.020 --> 00:27:35.020 right? 00:27:35.020 --> 00:27:36.020 But let's say the Eucharist, right? 00:27:36.020 --> 00:27:44.020 And the confession, for instance, the reconciliation, but the Eucharist for us, the liturgy of mass, 00:27:44.020 --> 00:27:45.020 right? 00:27:45.020 --> 00:27:50.020 And that, yes, there are special permits and special circumstances. 00:27:50.020 --> 00:27:55.020 Of course, we had one five years ago that lasted for a while, right? 00:27:55.020 --> 00:27:56.020 A couple of years. 00:27:56.020 --> 00:27:57.020 Yeah. 00:27:57.020 --> 00:28:04.020 It seems like a couple of years, but it's now five years, Jeff. 00:28:04.020 --> 00:28:11.020 We, we were allowed, let's say, to, to, to see mass, but we participate in the mass. 00:28:11.020 --> 00:28:13.020 We, we don't see it, right? 00:28:13.020 --> 00:28:15.020 And, and we're not there. 00:28:15.020 --> 00:28:20.020 The least important thing, if one would say that we go there is for the sermon, that's not 00:28:20.020 --> 00:28:21.020 what we go through. 00:28:21.020 --> 00:28:29.020 We, we, we believe what happens there is precisely the, the, the sacrifice, the sacrifice, right? 00:28:29.020 --> 00:28:35.020 And the Holy Friday and everything that happens there all the way to, to, to Easter Sunday. 00:28:35.020 --> 00:28:41.020 And, and that's what we're not just remembering, but we, we do believe that the, the, the host 00:28:41.020 --> 00:28:50.020 or the, the, the bread is the, the, the flesh and the wine is the, the, the blood of Christ. 00:28:50.020 --> 00:28:55.020 So for us, that can't be, that can't be online, right? 00:28:55.020 --> 00:28:58.020 There's no way we can have online. 00:28:58.020 --> 00:29:01.020 And same with the reconciliation sacrament confession, right? 00:29:01.020 --> 00:29:03.020 That can't be unassumed. 00:29:03.020 --> 00:29:04.020 That's not yet allowed. 00:29:04.020 --> 00:29:05.020 Maybe sometime, right? 00:29:05.020 --> 00:29:11.020 So, so what we do, for instance, when, when we talk about online communities, there's a 00:29:11.020 --> 00:29:18.020 lot of online communities that gather a lot that gather and they pray either Catholic stuff, 00:29:18.020 --> 00:29:24.020 let's say prayers, like the rosary, some that happen, like some happen like 4:00 AM in Brazil, 00:29:24.020 --> 00:29:27.020 literally millions connect at the same time. 00:29:27.020 --> 00:29:34.020 And they're all praying the rosary or they're praying different things or charismatics do different things. 00:29:34.020 --> 00:29:36.020 Like each has, we, we have a lot of variety. 00:29:36.020 --> 00:29:41.020 Let's say of how we Catholics pray depending on spirituality and churisums, et cetera, et cetera. 00:29:41.020 --> 00:29:45.020 And, and there's a lot of prayer services, let's say online. 00:29:45.020 --> 00:29:51.020 But at the end, and, and there's a lot of also online that happen in formation, right? 00:29:51.020 --> 00:29:58.020 Because if we go a bit back or talk about different topics, so I can come back to this question, Jeff, we, we do several things online. 00:29:58.020 --> 00:30:04.020 It's very cool to think evangelization, but, or online evangelization or mission. 00:30:04.020 --> 00:30:06.020 But for us Catholics, there's different things. 00:30:06.020 --> 00:30:10.020 And there's very distinct charisms of what, of who does it. 00:30:10.020 --> 00:30:13.020 So one is really, yes, evangelization. 00:30:13.020 --> 00:30:17.020 The first, first, first announcement, what we call the first announcement. 00:30:17.020 --> 00:30:28.020 That's the focus on people who are not practicing at all, who doesn't have, don't have a Christian faith, who are not baptized, who might not know nothing, anything about Christ, right? 00:30:28.020 --> 00:30:33.020 There's other things that are like collapsed Catholics or Christians, right? 00:30:33.020 --> 00:30:44.020 And we, and we, and we try to, to be where they are and accompany, get to where they are and accompany, accompany them towards, let's say that the truth, no, and Christ's mercy. 00:30:44.020 --> 00:30:48.020 There's, there's catechesis being done, formation being done there. 00:30:48.020 --> 00:30:50.020 There's entertainment, different ways of entertainment. 00:30:50.020 --> 00:30:54.020 There's, there's a lot of like pastoral accompaniment that's being done already. 00:30:54.020 --> 00:30:59.020 That's very good with already practicing Catholics that are already trying to keep their faith. 00:30:59.020 --> 00:31:01.020 There's different charisms, right? 00:31:01.020 --> 00:31:09.020 So, so when, when we talk about like a lot of these things, most of what I just said can happen online. 00:31:09.020 --> 00:31:22.020 But even the first thing that I said, the first announcement, you know, preaching the kerygma, trying to, to reach people there and showing them there's a guy that loved us and, and that died for us. 00:31:22.020 --> 00:31:35.020 And then walking with them all the way to realizing that the church is, let's say what, what, what, what, what he invited us and how they can be, live a, live a, a good life in every sense. 00:31:35.020 --> 00:31:40.020 Then we're there online, not to keep people there. 00:31:40.020 --> 00:31:45.020 So yes, we have, we have these prayer services. 00:31:45.020 --> 00:31:48.020 We can have all the things that I say, information, et cetera. 00:31:48.020 --> 00:31:55.020 But for us, it's essential that we bridge from the online to that in-person world, the sacramental. 00:31:56.020 --> 00:31:57.020 That's essential. 00:31:57.020 --> 00:32:04.020 So when you say a church online church or a digital or virtual church, we can't have that in the Catholic church. 00:32:04.020 --> 00:32:05.020 We can have prayer groups. 00:32:05.020 --> 00:32:08.020 We can have the discussion groups. 00:32:08.020 --> 00:32:10.020 We can have pastoral accompaniment. 00:32:10.020 --> 00:32:12.020 We can have different things, right? 00:32:12.020 --> 00:32:14.020 And we can stream live the mass. 00:32:14.020 --> 00:32:23.020 And if you're too old or too sick or in a pandemic or whatever, yes, we believe there's a, we can have a, a spiritual communion. 00:32:23.020 --> 00:32:25.020 If different things, if we follow different things. 00:32:25.020 --> 00:32:26.020 Right. 00:32:26.020 --> 00:32:31.020 But, but at the end, we believe in Christian community, in-person Christian community. 00:32:31.020 --> 00:32:34.020 We believe in the sacraments are in person. 00:32:34.020 --> 00:32:39.020 And we live, we believe the sacrifice is happens in every mass. 00:32:39.020 --> 00:32:40.020 And we long for that. 00:32:40.020 --> 00:32:43.020 And that's the fullness of what we believe. 00:32:43.020 --> 00:32:50.020 Like that's the, the, the, the Eucharist is the, the center of what we believe in. 00:32:50.020 --> 00:32:56.020 So everything that we do online has to be, so people stop scrolling and stop spending hours and hours here. 00:32:56.020 --> 00:32:57.020 Right. 00:32:57.020 --> 00:33:04.020 And they go into this life, the sacramental life, which for us happens online, in-person, right? 00:33:04.020 --> 00:33:06.020 It can happen a hundred percent online. 00:33:06.020 --> 00:33:10.020 So, so will we have a parish, an online parish? 00:33:10.020 --> 00:33:17.020 No, we have parishes that do a lot of things online to be where people are at, to form them, to accompany them our day to day. 00:33:17.020 --> 00:33:21.020 But even on the first, the first announcement. 00:33:21.020 --> 00:33:22.020 Yeah. 00:33:22.020 --> 00:33:24.020 It's not like a CTA call to action. 00:33:24.020 --> 00:33:25.020 Come to mass Sunday. 00:33:25.020 --> 00:33:30.020 Sometimes it's a, it's a journey that lasts years or a lot of steps, right? 00:33:30.020 --> 00:33:36.020 Sometimes it's very easy because people are already ready, but we want to invite them to a sacramental life. 00:33:36.020 --> 00:33:39.020 That's very important for us Catholic. 00:33:39.020 --> 00:33:40.020 It's interesting. 00:33:40.020 --> 00:33:42.020 I, I don't know if I answered your question. 00:33:42.020 --> 00:33:43.020 No, no. 00:33:43.020 --> 00:33:44.020 I, I, I think it's good. 00:33:44.020 --> 00:33:47.020 What is, what are some of the challenges? 00:33:47.020 --> 00:33:51.020 I mean, cause essentially you're using digital to drive people to physical. 00:33:51.020 --> 00:34:02.020 What are some of the challenges that people, that churches, that, that priests, that leadership would have with that mindset? 00:34:02.020 --> 00:34:06.020 Are they, are they not comfortable being on digital at all? 00:34:06.020 --> 00:34:13.020 Like you're not, you're not replacing the church by trying to, like, it's a very conservative take. 00:34:13.020 --> 00:34:21.020 You know, I, I was half expecting you to say, oh yeah, we're wanting, you know, virtual, uh, you know, whatever, but that's not what you're, that's not what you're doing. 00:34:21.020 --> 00:34:26.020 You're, you're, it's, it's a very complimentary approach, which is very conservative. 00:34:26.020 --> 00:34:33.020 Um, so what's, what's the major headache in this space or, or like what, what's the obstacle you're facing? 00:34:33.020 --> 00:34:45.020 Um, well, there, there's several, uh, and we can speak ours and yeah, we like for us traditions with tea, like, uh, uh, opera caps or how do you say cap, uh, tea tradition. 00:34:45.020 --> 00:34:46.020 Capitalized. 00:34:46.020 --> 00:34:47.020 Yeah. 00:34:47.020 --> 00:34:48.020 Capitalized. 00:34:48.020 --> 00:34:49.020 Sorry. 00:34:49.020 --> 00:34:50.020 My Spanish kicks in. 00:34:50.020 --> 00:34:52.020 Uh, that's very important. 00:34:52.020 --> 00:34:53.020 Right. 00:34:53.020 --> 00:34:57.020 And yes, we, we, that sense. 00:34:57.020 --> 00:34:58.020 Yes. 00:34:58.020 --> 00:34:59.020 We won't change. 00:34:59.020 --> 00:35:00.020 We won't change some things. 00:35:00.020 --> 00:35:05.020 We, there have been important for 2002 millennia and they will continue being. 00:35:05.020 --> 00:35:09.020 So, so yes, for us, we won't change our theology because of virtual. 00:35:09.020 --> 00:35:16.020 We know a lot of things are changing in the world, but maybe to, to draw up like a, an image 00:35:16.020 --> 00:35:22.020 of how we're seeing it, uh, and then go, go back to all the issues that we could talk hours 00:35:22.020 --> 00:35:27.020 and maybe need some tequila. 00:35:27.020 --> 00:35:34.020 But, uh, what, what, what the church has realized with Catholic church has realized is that internet 00:35:34.020 --> 00:35:35.020 is a culture. 00:35:35.020 --> 00:35:41.020 Before we, we, we, we, we, we saw it as a, as we saw the Paris bulletin, or I don't know how 00:35:41.020 --> 00:35:45.020 you call it the church bulletin, or like communication that's very one-sided. 00:35:45.020 --> 00:35:49.020 There's like, there's a communicant and you have a receiver and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 00:35:49.020 --> 00:35:54.020 And well, we hope someone will engage or understand or listening, whatever. 00:35:54.020 --> 00:35:59.020 And, and we have been, I don't know if there's sociologists who are listening to this. 00:35:59.020 --> 00:36:06.020 Uh, you said Josh might not be listening, but for instance, one of the, one of the things 00:36:06.020 --> 00:36:11.020 that we argue is that the elements like the internet has the elements of a culture. 00:36:11.020 --> 00:36:15.020 It has its own language, its own costumes, doing things. 00:36:15.020 --> 00:36:19.020 It's all own like continents and we could call them platforms or whatever. 00:36:19.020 --> 00:36:22.020 Like it has a lot of the different elements of a culture, right? 00:36:22.020 --> 00:36:28.020 So, so the, the thing with the, with the Catholic church that we have been realizing these 00:36:28.020 --> 00:36:34.020 last several years, mostly with Pope Francis, and I'm sure we will continue with Pope Leo, 00:36:34.020 --> 00:36:39.020 is that evangelization happens where people are at. 00:36:39.020 --> 00:36:41.020 And before it was okay. 00:36:41.020 --> 00:36:43.020 We found out about the new culture. 00:36:43.020 --> 00:36:45.020 We sent missionaries there. 00:36:45.020 --> 00:36:52.020 We didn't know if they were going to be killed, beaten, or if the culture was going to be so attractive. 00:36:52.020 --> 00:36:54.020 We don't know so many stories. 00:36:54.020 --> 00:36:57.020 Of course, there exists a lot of missionaries that went there. 00:36:57.020 --> 00:37:03.020 And well, pagan culture became so attractive that they stayed there, became whatever, some, something else. 00:37:03.020 --> 00:37:03.020 No. 00:37:03.020 --> 00:37:13.020 But we have never, ever been afraid of going to a new culture, finding the seeds of the verb, as Vatican says. 00:37:13.020 --> 00:37:14.020 No. 00:37:14.020 --> 00:37:40.720 And it's the same mission. Matthew 28, it's the same mission, right? Go on proclaim every nation and make the same God's love to every nation. It's the same mission, right? But we have done it to different cultures. And when missionaries, the famous missionaries or any missionary, they didn't get there. For instance, so many missionaries that we have. For instance, very famous one that Francis Xavier. 00:37:40.720 --> 00:38:06.700 When he went to India or Japan or China, he didn't start preaching in Spanish. He didn't get like his Bible and repent and whatever. No, he got there. He had to learn the language. He had to see how they lived, see the customs, how they identify that, say the things that were in line with what persons like we believe, we think of good and bad, et cetera, et cetera. 00:38:06.700 --> 00:38:27.900 And then mostly by his witness initially, by their witness, by the missionaries' witness, right? It's how people saw God in them, right? They saw there was something different. And yes, learn the language, the customs, and by their witness. And then, yes, start preaching and, well, we have baptisms, et cetera, et cetera. 00:38:27.900 --> 00:38:37.560 But so the Catholic Church is seeing the internet as a new culture. So we're seeing it as the new missionary frontier. 00:38:38.380 --> 00:38:48.540 And as we have done for 20 centuries, not being afraid of going there, we are now going there to bring people to Christ and to walk with them. 00:38:48.540 --> 00:38:56.580 And so with that in mind, that that is not, of course, it's not the traditional sense of like in-person, physical space, right? 00:38:57.020 --> 00:39:06.060 And one could argue that's why in some senses it can't be a whole new culture, although we know it's a culture and we can live it. 00:39:06.860 --> 00:39:17.520 And the thing is, then how can we precisely have a church, let's say, so many cool things that are happening online, evangelization, podcast. 00:39:17.720 --> 00:39:27.660 We do a lot of podcasts. People get attracted. Let's say they, okay, finally, after listening years and finding a way, their journey and introspection and all that, I'm ready to go to church. 00:39:27.660 --> 00:39:49.620 Then they go to a Catholic Church and then they have an old priest or a very, let's say, closed priest, you know, so many senses that there's no people who welcome them or they see how they're dressed and how their tattoos or whatever, or how they don't know anything and maybe judging. 00:39:49.620 --> 00:39:55.860 And if you have all that stuff, which, of course, happens a lot, of course, we're losing it. 00:39:56.280 --> 00:40:07.700 So the thing is, we have the call right now, and mostly these last couple of years with the sin of synodality, is having in mind how our reality is being transformed. 00:40:08.020 --> 00:40:16.080 And there's a lot of research about this, how our brain is being transformed, even when we're not in our devices, right? 00:40:16.520 --> 00:40:24.160 But our language, our way of seeing things, of approaching things, of thinking about things because of the digital world. 00:40:24.380 --> 00:40:30.760 We know we need to change a lot of the things that we do in our parishes, in our churches, right? 00:40:30.920 --> 00:40:34.300 And how to be more welcoming and how to be more attractive. 00:40:34.440 --> 00:40:40.880 Yes, we have digital missionaries or Catholic influencers who are priests or who are nuns or monks or whatever. 00:40:41.360 --> 00:40:41.900 Okay, cool. 00:40:41.940 --> 00:40:45.360 But that's a minuscule amount of people, right? 00:40:45.540 --> 00:40:52.660 Most are priests that might be very old and doesn't even have, well, maybe WhatsApp or Facebook, right? 00:40:52.660 --> 00:40:54.500 But doesn't know anything about that. 00:40:54.700 --> 00:40:57.180 So we have a lot of challenges there. 00:40:57.460 --> 00:41:05.200 That's why they need to rely on lay people, which has been a change that Pope Francis has been, well, since Vatican Council No. 2, right? 00:41:05.340 --> 00:41:13.740 Second Vatican Council, at the end of 62, well, 62 it ended, trying to have lay people make the church our own. 00:41:14.200 --> 00:41:15.600 It's not the bishop's church. 00:41:15.880 --> 00:41:21.640 It's not the priests and they just do and say and we just go and participate from this side. 00:41:22.080 --> 00:41:23.800 No, we have to make it our own. 00:41:23.800 --> 00:41:35.280 And online, there's a lot of things that we need to help the church, that we need to help our leaders be part of and help them. 00:41:35.640 --> 00:41:37.900 And, well, there's a lot of issues, of course, with bishops. 00:41:38.460 --> 00:41:46.800 Some have had very bad experiences because, of course, we have Catholic YouTubers who are very critical of the Pope or, well, Pope Francis, 00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:54.480 of bishops who have promoted this unity or fake news and towards their own bishop, et cetera, et cetera. 00:41:55.020 --> 00:42:05.340 And there's a lot of issues that we could talk about that we are finding out how to, let's say, work around them or work within them. 00:42:05.700 --> 00:42:07.620 And without being afraid, right? 00:42:07.640 --> 00:42:08.400 This is happening. 00:42:08.640 --> 00:42:13.280 That's why also Pope Leo and, well, even Francis was very bold with AI. 00:42:13.620 --> 00:42:16.760 We need to be in the middle of the conversation where things are happening. 00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:24.520 So it's better learning by trying, which was the thing that Pope Francis invited us to do, that he told so many times, 00:42:24.580 --> 00:42:35.820 he told us so many times how he preferred a church that is outside, that is trying new things, that it brews, that has dirt on our hands, right, on our nails, right? 00:42:35.820 --> 00:42:45.160 Because we're trying different things that the church is just inside, people that are just inside our churches and getting sick because we're just there, stale. 00:42:45.520 --> 00:42:46.000 Right. 00:42:46.440 --> 00:42:50.980 Well, so we're invited to change, to try different approaches and things. 00:42:51.300 --> 00:42:51.500 Yes. 00:42:51.620 --> 00:42:55.980 So, I mean, speaking of that, I was curious about innovation overall within the Catholic Church. 00:42:56.440 --> 00:43:07.120 What is, I mean, you got metaverse, you got virtual reality, augmented, like we're at the precipice of incredible technological leaps and bounds here in the next decade. 00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:10.180 What does innovation look like within the Catholic Church? 00:43:11.960 --> 00:43:25.740 Precisely with Josh, I had a conversation last time that he, I think it was last time he was here in Dallas or, or I don't know if it was Jesu, but he was, he was saying, you know, he's Lutheran, right? 00:43:25.820 --> 00:43:29.600 He's not Catholic and well, but he's all over, all over there. 00:43:29.780 --> 00:43:29.940 Yeah. 00:43:29.940 --> 00:43:30.680 He's all over the map. 00:43:30.680 --> 00:43:32.220 Christian, yeah. 00:43:32.220 --> 00:43:44.640 And just tell me how he has been hearing for years, how innovation is like a password in a lot of Christian, like the nominations, events, a lot of things and hackathons and events and stuff. 00:43:44.640 --> 00:43:57.980 And he was like, I don't hear that word at all on Catholic and, and, and, and yeah, we just don't use that word like that a lot. 00:43:58.080 --> 00:43:58.320 Right. 00:43:58.580 --> 00:44:04.300 And first of all, like in liturgy and doctrine, yes, we, like, we want to innovate. 00:44:04.380 --> 00:44:05.360 We're pretty conservative. 00:44:05.360 --> 00:44:17.220 If you want to use that word, like we want to stick to what we have thought for 20 centuries and what we have believed for 20 centuries and what we believe Christ taught us, et cetera, et cetera. 00:44:17.220 --> 00:44:18.860 And our understanding of things. 00:44:18.860 --> 00:44:33.140 So in some senses, one could say, yes, innovation is not our thing on the other hand, that the Catholic church has always adapted to the times and we have been at the forefront of a lot of things. 00:44:33.140 --> 00:44:46.220 I mean, you see a big bang theory now that you see like all the Catholic thing, let's say scientists, et cetera, that have discovered and even led so many different things. 00:44:46.220 --> 00:44:57.980 right, uh, the genome and, uh, et cetera, et cetera, now some, so many things on AI, like Catholics have always been on the forefront of experimentation, of innovation in that sense. 00:44:57.980 --> 00:44:58.340 Right. 00:44:58.660 --> 00:45:01.660 In that other sense, do we use the word innovation? 00:45:01.780 --> 00:45:02.180 No. 00:45:02.780 --> 00:45:08.420 Now in the sense, in a sense, that's what Pope Francis was, was asking us is Evangelii Gaudium, right. 00:45:08.740 --> 00:45:14.020 Which was his, his, his apostolic exhortation that he repeated us so many times. 00:45:14.380 --> 00:45:27.620 And now with the synod of synodality that we concluded last October, that we're in a three year phase now, we're, we're, we were invited by, by, by Rome, by the Vatican to experiment, implement these things. 00:45:27.860 --> 00:45:29.620 We need to be a more listening church. 00:45:29.620 --> 00:45:40.300 We know that we need to listen more, stop preaching, listen, listen, where people are at, see the daily experiences, the wounds, the cries of the earth of the people. 00:45:40.300 --> 00:45:46.740 And then see how to better be with them and, and through God's love, uh, kill them. 00:45:46.900 --> 00:45:54.340 And we need to find better ways of doing that because we have been so bad and so many bad things that we have been doing in so many ways. 00:45:54.340 --> 00:45:58.540 And, and, and, and we know we need to change a lot of things. 00:45:58.540 --> 00:46:13.940 So, yes, in some senses, no innovation at all, but in other senses, we know we need to be closer to people to promote encounter in cultures, to promote peace, to promote justice, so many different things. 00:46:13.940 --> 00:46:28.220 That, that, that's why there's so many different charisms, religious orders, ecclesial movements, like groups of lay people, all within the Catholic church, all very different, but it's trying different new things with, within their own charism and calling. 00:46:28.660 --> 00:46:36.500 And, and, and, and we have, we have been asked, uh, mostly by Pope Francis, but, but through our, our history. 00:46:36.500 --> 00:46:39.740 And sometimes we, we become too traditional, too stale. 00:46:39.740 --> 00:46:48.460 And, and, and, and then comes a saint that completely reforms the church and to show you, remember who you are, remember to be out there, to do this, et cetera, et cetera. 00:46:48.940 --> 00:46:55.360 So, yeah, not in the same sense, uh, but even right now, uh, the Vatican is at the forefront. 00:46:55.360 --> 00:47:13.200 And if you saw last week's Christian, uh, the, the, the, the letter on AI by the Christian leaders, they referenced the thing from the, from the Pope and the Vatican has, has been conversations, which are so insiders called the Minerva dialogue with, with Palo Alto and Silicon Valley people, et cetera, for, for a decade. 00:47:13.200 --> 00:47:21.780 And, and a lot of things going on, innovation, talking with, with a lot of different people, but it's a very different take. 00:47:21.780 --> 00:47:22.340 Like, I agree. 00:47:22.820 --> 00:47:33.160 And somehow it appears innovation, some people within the, within the Catholic church, that word itself is like, eh, it doesn't sound right. 00:47:34.420 --> 00:47:42.680 Is it, is it, do you feel like it's, and, and I'm, I'm not trying to get gotcha journalism. 00:47:42.680 --> 00:47:51.760 So I'm trying to ask this question in, in, in, in a soft language, but is it, is it responding like just in time when it needs to? 00:47:52.160 --> 00:47:56.180 Is, is it, is it, is it slow in, in responding, but it's, it's stable. 00:47:56.380 --> 00:47:57.160 You know, it's interesting. 00:47:57.260 --> 00:48:09.000 I made this, I made this illusion the other day illustration to like major league baseball where, you know, a lot of the same roles that Babe Ruth played at in the 1920s still exists today. 00:48:09.360 --> 00:48:13.220 Like the game itself has not changed historically. 00:48:13.300 --> 00:48:25.940 They've made minor adjustments here or there when they were need to, maybe under duress, but at the end of the day, it's still honoring what was, and it is still trying to be somewhat effective for, for the future. 00:48:25.940 --> 00:48:28.300 No one could not say the same thing about major league baseball. 00:48:31.920 --> 00:48:32.540 That's funny. 00:48:32.540 --> 00:48:38.620 So like, is it, is it, um, innovation without being innovation? 00:48:38.620 --> 00:48:49.060 Is it, is it, is it responding in, in season to do what, what it has to, like what, what, what fuels innovation for, for the Catholic church? 00:48:49.800 --> 00:49:04.440 Yeah, I think it's in, it's in different things, uh, first of all, one of the, let's say parameters, it's not like we have our, our very clear don'ts or, or this is where innovation has no space. 00:49:04.860 --> 00:49:08.400 For instance, very clearly the liturgy, right? 00:49:09.360 --> 00:49:10.560 Like very clear. 00:49:10.860 --> 00:49:27.060 Now we, we, we believe something, uh, since the beginning of, of, of, of the Catholic church, the fathers of the church, that something, we believe something, we believe the bread is this, the blood is this, we, we believe, uh, we believe those things. 00:49:27.060 --> 00:49:30.720 So, so innovating there in the liturgy, you won't see that. 00:49:30.720 --> 00:49:36.580 But, and whenever it's done by, let's say, rogue priests or whatever, it's frowned upon, right? 00:49:36.820 --> 00:49:55.580 So, so in that sense, yeah, doctrine, what we believe in, yeah, we, we, we won't start changing things just because, because we think it's more, it's more cool right now, what, that we have believed are, are, are, are, are, are, what we believe in, right? 00:49:55.580 --> 00:49:59.700 And, and even things immorals, uh, we take a while. 00:49:59.940 --> 00:50:14.880 We have nuances, we have better understanding, science has, has, has helped us a lot, uh, in a lot of things to, let's say, adjust or even change our understanding, but of, because of science, not because of theological reasons, right? 00:50:15.020 --> 00:50:20.740 Like, for instance, like the, you know, centuries ago, Galileo, Galilei, et cetera, et cetera, right? 00:50:21.160 --> 00:50:27.640 Like, so, and, and we kept several, and the church then admits like, okay, yes, we thought the world was the center of the universe. 00:50:27.640 --> 00:50:36.340 We now know it's not, so, so these, uh, earth-centric approach, well, uh, we adjusted, right? 00:50:36.400 --> 00:50:40.480 And, and we're open to that sort of stuff, but because of science or reason, right? 00:50:40.640 --> 00:50:44.300 Not because we are changing our theological truth or something. 00:50:44.300 --> 00:50:44.540 Gotcha. 00:50:45.400 --> 00:50:55.300 In terms of evangelization, in terms of formation, in terms of how to better help, let's say, the poor, the needy, let's say, the Beatitudes, right? 00:50:55.340 --> 00:51:11.120 Make them reality, oof, the church has always been innovative, that's why we invented universities, universities, that's why hospitals, that's why so many things have happened, because we have always, always invented, let's say, innovated in those senses. 00:51:11.540 --> 00:51:25.320 And, and sometimes, like, let's say, one could argue if one goes into the history of the church or just world history, like the dark ages, like the middle ages were so very bad in a lot of senses for innovation. 00:51:25.640 --> 00:51:26.180 Mm-hmm. 00:51:26.180 --> 00:51:43.820 For the church and of, of trying different things, and then we have this rich church that became too complacent or too, like, in bed with, uh, with, uh, world powers, with kings, with, et cetera, et cetera, and so many bad things that we know and we, we have asked for forgiveness and still trying to atone for a lot of those sins. 00:51:44.180 --> 00:52:01.560 And we had some crazy, crazy saints that reminded us of things, like St. Francis of Assisi, St. Catherine of Siena, right, that wrote, that wrote so many, when we had two popes, or we had one pope, but we didn't know which one was the real one, et cetera, et cetera. 00:52:01.980 --> 00:52:26.900 And, and we, we, we, we, we had these people that sound crazy, that are reminding us of who we are, and that go out of their limbs, like this Francis, in times of the, uh, a very rich church, in which the, the bishops were really princesses in all, princesses in, in all the, in all the sense of the word, of the worldly sense of the word. 00:52:27.280 --> 00:52:39.840 Prince of the church, he was, he was crazy and lived with nothing, but with, with a robe, right, and, and begging, and preaching, and building, and, and that's what changed, let's say, the, the world. 00:52:39.840 --> 00:52:47.920 And then St. Bernard, when, when the monasteries, when monasteries were again, also deforming into bad things and, and being the worst. 00:52:48.160 --> 00:52:55.980 So, so we became stale, and there's, there's always, there has always been people that remind us of who we are, 00:52:55.980 --> 00:53:04.440 and that we have to be, and who we have to be, and how, how we need to be responding to Christ's call in today's time. 00:53:05.020 --> 00:53:15.080 Sometimes that hierarchy has become, like, very, yes, slow in realizing these things, and that's when we have these other things happening. 00:53:15.480 --> 00:53:24.240 Right now, with Francis, we, we had a lot of, let's say, of wake-up calls that he was inviting us to see outside of ourselves. 00:53:24.780 --> 00:53:44.720 And, and, and, and, and that was very hard for a lot of people that one could say to conservatives, let's say to some conservatives in the Catholic Church, because he, he was, like, calling us out in a lot of senses, and inviting us to be out of ourselves, and to, to be, to listen more, and how can we listen more if we have the truth? 00:53:44.720 --> 00:53:50.400 And, and, and, and, and, and we need those types of people to remind us of who we are. 00:53:50.460 --> 00:54:05.840 But there's always a lot of people that behind the, behind, let's say, not, not in front of the screens, that in the shadows, in good sense, are, have always been innovating on ways to reach the poor, the needy, to evangelize those that don't need it. 00:54:05.840 --> 00:54:32.380 And so many examples of people that, that are doing that, and who have been trying to, to, to do that in so many countries and places, even in the US, in cities, with, with the most, yeah, with, with people that need physical stuff, like normal stuff to eat and shelter, et cetera, but who also need love, and who also need spiritual advice, and who need, need someone to be there. 00:54:32.380 --> 00:54:32.580 Right? 00:54:34.720 --> 00:54:35.740 So what's a win? 00:54:36.340 --> 00:54:41.100 What does, what does the Catholic Church look like in 2035, in 10 years? 00:54:45.980 --> 00:55:01.480 I would say, because of the synodality, which was this gathering that took place for several years in Rome, had different phases, a universal phase, in which every diocese participated, and we listened to everyone. 00:55:02.380 --> 00:55:09.560 That wanted to say, that wanted to say a thing about the church and how we're living, our calling as a church, et cetera, et cetera. 00:55:09.940 --> 00:55:21.080 But also, but then we have, let's say, the, the, the, the last phase, which was the universal phase in Rome, that I was a part of, as you know, for the last two years, 23 and 24. 00:55:21.720 --> 00:55:34.980 And, and it was bishops from all over, for instance, one of the things that Pope Francis changed was, he now had a, a percentage of non-bishops that were voting, that, that we not only had a voice, but also a vote. 00:55:35.200 --> 00:55:57.540 And, and, and, and, and one of the things that we are invited by the, by the final document, which we all voted, and then he decided to make part of his ordinary magisterium, which now makes it, let's say something that, that Catholics can, can feed from, and use from. 00:55:57.540 --> 00:56:15.880 And it's not just a, a thing that was said by a bunch of people, but has some authority, we have, we have some guidelines and, and dioceses, local realities, yes, bishops, but also religious superiors from religious orders, which means monks and nuns mostly. 00:56:15.880 --> 00:56:28.960 Okay, right, they're invited to recognize the local digital missionaries, so people that are already there, recognize them, see them, right, have an encounter with them. 00:56:29.500 --> 00:56:43.340 So that's happening already in so many different parts of the world, right, in which the bishop is getting to know the, the, the, let's say the local Catholic influencers, social missionaries, content creators, however you want to call them, 00:56:44.180 --> 00:56:49.280 that are in the, in the region, that first encounter changes everything. 00:56:49.880 --> 00:57:12.740 And of course, I have to talk a lot with the bishops, please don't preach, please don't tell them what they're doing wrong, ask, ask, like, ask them what they're calling, what's in their hearts, what, why they think, like, God is calling them to do this, and how they're doing it, and their struggles, and get to know each other, poof, the things that happen after that first encounter. 00:57:12.740 --> 00:57:18.440 So we can have that, we, we, we're still planning and trying to do different things in the states. 00:57:18.440 --> 00:57:39.140 But if we can have that, bishops that are really interested in getting to know digital missionaries that are, that live there in the region, even though, of course, their followers can be from everywhere, but our reality still is very, like, let's say, geographical in terms of jurisdiction, canonical jurisdiction. 00:57:39.140 --> 00:57:44.840 So, so right now, because of course, that's a different thing that we won't talk here, that's more complicated. 00:57:44.840 --> 00:57:53.540 Who will be in charge of them, who will be in charge of them, and there's different options that we might be exploring in the church, we're exploring, will take forever, like years to find out. 00:57:53.540 --> 00:58:05.400 But if we, as Catholics, if bishops don't want to just outsource, let's say, evangelization, which is very essential, bishops are supposed to be teachers, well, shepherds, right? 00:58:05.400 --> 00:58:20.600 If they're seeing digital missionaries as, as an extension, and also they take them part of their pastoral plan, of their evangelization plan. 00:58:20.600 --> 00:58:38.200 So, in 10 years, let's say, if bishops, a majority of bishops are doing this, and then with them walking towards seeing, okay, how can we better be one, because that's what God called us all Christians, right? 00:58:38.200 --> 00:58:39.600 To be one as he's one, right? 00:58:39.600 --> 00:58:58.520 So, if we are that, and it's not like, okay, some digital missionaries here doing some cool content and attracting people to Christ and the church, and then they go to a church, and then it's the most boring or most welcoming church or most judgy church, then we have all these issues, no? 00:58:58.520 --> 00:59:27.720 So, if we are incorporating them, and we start transforming a lot of things of how we are church, not of what we think, not of what we believe in, not of the way we celebrate the liberty, but how we are, how we do, how we act with people who think differently, who are very differently in every sense, or can be in every sense, but how we welcome them, like God the Father, open arms. 00:59:27.720 --> 00:59:48.980 So, if we start doing that, the things that can happen, Jeff, in so many ways, will be a whole different church, and it's changing so rapidly in the places that the bishops are taking the first step in listening, not in preaching, not in telling them what they're doing wrong, and then, there's a lot of cool things that happen. 00:59:48.980 --> 01:00:04.260 There's a lot of cool things that the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit does its thing, and the church's structure starts changing because of this mindset of being out there with them, listening, accompanying them, recognizing them, and seeing them as what they are, missionaries. 01:00:04.660 --> 01:00:21.780 Yeah, often we talk about, you know, establishing trust digitally, and asking, you know, more questions than making statements, use more question marks than periods, and no exclamation marks, don't preach, listen, allow the Holy Spirit to use you by listening. 01:00:21.780 --> 01:00:30.820 And so, it's interesting, I hear my language coming in a different context coming from you over the past hour. 01:00:30.960 --> 01:00:31.860 This is beautiful. 01:00:32.040 --> 01:00:37.380 Now, Jose, I didn't even, I didn't ask up at the top, like, what do you actually do? 01:00:37.780 --> 01:00:39.240 Like, what's, what's your, what's your job? 01:00:39.300 --> 01:00:44.700 Because it's, this is, that's, are you, you're not, like, paid by the Catholic Church, right? 01:00:44.720 --> 01:00:46.060 You do something else in addition? 01:00:46.660 --> 01:00:48.160 What, what's your actual nine to five? 01:00:49.180 --> 01:00:51.520 Yeah, sadly, that's, that's not a thing. 01:00:51.640 --> 01:00:59.680 When, even, like, this, you know, last, last year, I spent a month, and two years ago, another month in the Vatican, even, even there, no, I wasn't paid. 01:00:59.680 --> 01:01:11.200 I, I convinced them to pay for my ticket and my lodging, but that was, but, but, well, no, well, several things. 01:01:11.360 --> 01:01:21.120 Let's say the, the way that I sustain myself and my family, because I'm married and I have three kids, I, it's, it's by a sort of a digital marketing agency and content creation agency. 01:01:21.380 --> 01:01:34.580 We work with Catholic organizations, including a couple of dioceses, and, and, and that agency is geared mostly at helping them connect with Latinos and attracting them to Christ, right? 01:01:35.060 --> 01:01:41.180 As you might know, Latinos in the U.S. make up almost 50% of Catholics, right? 01:01:41.600 --> 01:01:45.580 And the majority of Catholics under 25 are Latinos in the U.S. 01:01:46.100 --> 01:01:49.880 But the church, sadly, the Catholic Church, sadly, does very little things. 01:01:50.240 --> 01:02:04.900 So, try to convince them that Latinos are worth it, that there's a lot of ways to, to attract them to Christ, so they're not leaving to the nuns, because they're not, a lot of people think, oh, they're, Latinos are leaving to, to other Christian denominations, whatever. 01:02:05.300 --> 01:02:07.640 Well, cool, if so, but that's not happening. 01:02:07.740 --> 01:02:20.160 They're leaving to the nuns, they're not, they stop practicing the faith, and that's because we are not welcoming them, and that starts with, we're not seeing them by who they are, we're not creating content for them, we're not doing a lot of cool things. 01:02:20.240 --> 01:02:39.240 So, we're not doing a lot of cool things, but we're not doing a lot of cool things, we're not doing a lot of cool things, so we're not doing a lot of cool things, but we're not doing a lot of cool things, we're not doing a lot of cool things, but we're not doing a lot of cool things, but we're not doing a lot of cool things, but we're not doing a lot of cool things, but we're not doing a lot of cool things, but we're not doing a lot of cool things, but we're not doing a lot of cool things, but we're not doing a lot of cool things, but we're not doing a lot of cool things. 01:02:39.240 --> 01:03:04.000 I get, let's say, I sustain my family, myself, we have very few clients, so we survive, but then, on the other hand, where my heart really is, is on the non-profit part, finally, after years and years, last year, we incorporated, legally, we now have a non-profit, in which we have three different initiatives. 01:03:04.240 --> 01:03:34.220 One is the evangelization lab, in which we do experiments, to see what works precisely, to bring people from the online to the in-person, and that's a very cool thing, that's going to be out in the public very soon, because we have been doing it behind the mics, behind the cameras, so there's a lot of really cool things, multidisciplinary approaches, a lot of really cool things there, and then, we'd love to hear your feedback, Jeff, and your thoughts, 01:03:34.240 --> 01:03:37.580 I'd love to hear your thoughts, and different things, and maybe even experiment with you guys a bit. 01:03:38.000 --> 01:03:49.640 Oh, yeah, yeah, once you go public with some of the findings of the lab, I'd love to double back with you, and learn what you're learning, and dig more into that. 01:03:49.640 --> 01:03:52.160 And start some interventions and experiments, also, right? 01:03:52.160 --> 01:03:54.180 Oh, totally, definitely, love it. 01:03:54.960 --> 01:03:58.480 So, hey, this has been a great conversation, a great time. 01:03:59.060 --> 01:04:11.880 Jose, thanks for hanging out with us, and so, looking forward to working more closely with you as we're going down this road, but as we're wrapping up here, Jose, any closing thoughts? 01:04:13.060 --> 01:04:19.960 Well, thank you, Jeff, for everything I've told you, and, well, not in person yet, in Zoom and in WhatsApp, what you're doing. 01:04:20.260 --> 01:04:27.020 Like, we need what you're doing, so I'm very grateful when I discovered the Truth Digital, I was very excited. 01:04:27.520 --> 01:04:33.780 I am very excited about what you're doing with the cohorts, and, well, with the podcast, and with the community, and with everything. 01:04:34.340 --> 01:04:39.540 I don't participate as often there in the very bad with WhatsApp, et cetera, et cetera, but I'm a fan of what you're doing. 01:04:39.540 --> 01:04:51.800 I pray for you daily, and, well, I hope a lot of the people that are listening that are not Catholics understand that we're trying the same thing, and that we are trying to work together as well. 01:04:52.060 --> 01:05:02.520 And I love your approach, and seeing a lot of non-Catholics, like Christian non-Catholics, that are trying to see us and also work with us in the same way. 01:05:02.720 --> 01:05:04.760 And, well, we're called to be one, right? 01:05:04.900 --> 01:05:07.300 So, let's try to do it. 01:05:07.800 --> 01:05:12.760 The Church Digital, we've always been friends on mission, and there's a lot more, Jose. 01:05:13.200 --> 01:05:17.740 It's interesting, I've even been getting WhatsApp notifications from friends that are watching the stream live. 01:05:18.060 --> 01:05:31.580 There's a lot more that unites us than divides us, and so, man, it's great to have you on the stream here, and looking forward to working with you forward, working with you more, working with you more in the weeks and months to come. 01:05:31.880 --> 01:05:35.080 I have no idea why I said forward, moving forward, maybe. 01:05:35.080 --> 01:05:36.400 Okay, I don't know. 01:05:36.760 --> 01:05:42.500 I am somewhat medicated, and so I'm looking forward to ending this stream, probably going and taking a nap. 01:05:43.440 --> 01:05:50.060 But, hey, Jose, it's been a great conversation, and even though I've been on drugs through this conversation, oh, no, I'm kidding. 01:05:50.240 --> 01:05:51.180 Actually, I'm not kidding. 01:05:51.480 --> 01:05:53.280 But it has been great to hang out with you, Jose. 01:05:53.360 --> 01:05:55.300 Thanks for spending Tuesday with us. 01:05:55.820 --> 01:05:58.720 And for Jose, this is Jeff with The Church Digital. 01:05:58.840 --> 01:06:02.440 Thanks for hanging out with us, and we'll see you all soon. 01:06:02.940 --> 01:06:03.540 You all have a good one. 01:06:04.040 --> 01:06:04.380 Thank you.