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 Jeff here. We'll get back to the podcast in a second, but I wanted to let you know of an

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 opportunity to help you further develop your church online. Here at The Church Digital,

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 we found some of the best ways for churches to grow their ministry online is to work alongside

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 other churches. To that end, The Church Digital is opening up some coaching cohorts in January 2020.

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 Through our cohorts, you'll be connected with churches with similar goals in place in ministry,

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 and work through these goals together over the six months under the guidance of the crew

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 here at The Church Digital. In 2020, invest in your church online. Invest in you. For more information

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 and to find out how you can save 20%, visit thechurch.digital slash cohort.

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 Episode 37 of The Church Digital podcast. We're taking a different approach here as we're going

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 to look at things on the small. Normally, when we talk about small, we're talking about microlocations,

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 small groups, things like that that are happening in church online. But honestly, I was called out

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 recently by our guest on Facebook for having a different view with church online. You see,

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 historically, I, Jeff, I've been working with multi-site churches that are mega church, even

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 giga church level. And so just transparently, my view of church, and even church online, is more of this

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 mega giga church level. It's a much larger church. Here's a fascinating stat that I've just discovered

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 here recently. 80% of churches in America today are under 200 in attendance any given Sunday. While I've

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 been focusing, and I'm transparent here, I admit this, while I've been focusing on the big church,

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 come to find out that the majority of churches that are out there aren't big. The majority of the people

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 that are attending aren't big. They're attending the small. And there's this whole other level that we

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 should be reaching at the small church and helping smaller churches or discovering how smaller churches

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 are utilizing technology. How are they utilizing church online? And to this point, I bring in our guest

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 for today, Joe Radicevich, who is a pastor of a church plant in Belgium, Wisconsin. Belgium Community

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 Church is a small church plant up there. And Joe's got a big heart to reach the people in his

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 neighborhoods. He's got a big heart to impact people with the gospel and create disciple makers who are

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 capable of creating other disciples. And it was a pleasure to have this conversation with him today as we

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 dove into this idea of small church, church online. So for this conversation, I'm bringing in Joe

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 Radicevich, obviously church planner and lead pastor there at Belgium Community Church. I'm bringing in Tom

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 Pounder, who of course, anytime Tom comes into the show from YM Sidekick podcast and digital boot camp and

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 all the things that he's doing, man, it's always a pleasure just to hang out with him. I'm bringing in

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 Ray Diarmus. Ray is a common guest host here at the Church Digital. And of course, online pastor at

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 Christ Fellowship Miami and my course, myself, Jeff with the Church Digital to have this conversation

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 on small church, church online. Hey, everybody, here you go. This church was actually started 25 years

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 ago. But long story short, after a period of health, it declined to so that they closed their doors. So

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 they closed the doors strategically for a year and a half while looking for a pastor. The denomination

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 chipped in money to renovate the building. And so basically, it's more like a church plant that has

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 a building. There's some history, but basically, we have a new name. It's a new church.

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 And it's in a community that really surrounded by communities without churches, without gospel,

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 evangelical churches, even mainline and Catholic churches are closing up in this area. So there's

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 half a million people within 25 miles of us, but they're made up in small towns. And they're little

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 towns where oftentimes there's not a there's no church at all, or there's no church that's preaching

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 the gospel. And so anyway, so we're kind of coming out of the church plant circle, looking at a town,

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 looking at a series of communities and saying, how do we reach these people? And quite honestly,

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 the front door of our church is online. We know that we know everybody has a mobile device.

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 They've got computers and TVs and smart stuff and all over the place. How do we use these things to

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 get our front door as closely as we can, or as close to people as we can get it. So that's kind

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 of where we come at the church online live stream kind of conversation is using it to disciple the

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 people that we have and using it to reach people that are in our community and wouldn't be reached

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 any other way.

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 So let me ask this question, Joe, how long have you been that you're relatively new at the church,

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 Belgium community, right?

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 So I moved up here June of 2017. So two and a half years, the church restarted a little over a year and a

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 half ago. So the first six months was a helter skelter, renovate a building, gather a core team, launch a church.

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 Yeah. So two and a half years.

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 Um, and I'm realizing that was a pretty breakneck pace for the first two and a half.

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 So did, did you, did you move there for the specific church or did God, just curious to kind

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 of backstory. So you moved up to Belgium, Wisconsin with visions of, of rebirthing kind of this,

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 this existing church area.

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 If I had known it was a church plant, I would have run.

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 I thought it was a church revitalization is what I thought it was, uh, and it had a failed

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 church plant in Illinois. The Lord used it to really teach me and grow me, prepare me, uh, for some

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 things. But if I had known this was a church plant, I would have run away, but I'm actually glad I didn't

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 because I really found a lot of my gifts in the middle of all this. So anyway, so I, uh,

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 this was a position that I thought was a revitalization. And so we moved up here and said,

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 okay. Um, and I really wanted to go north because I wanted to go to a place where we're

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 not just another flavor of church, which I realized that's even changing in the south.

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 Uh, a lot of churches are closing super fast and people are not hearing the gospel,

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 but I wanted to go to a place where people go, I've never heard this before. This is really good

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 news. Um, and really that's what I found here in Wisconsin. I'd never been to Wisconsin until I

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 interviewed for this position, but, um, to hear people go, I've never heard this in my life.

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 What are you talking about? Um, and for the people in our church to get division for that and go,

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 yeah, there are people in our lives that thought Jesus Christ was just a swear word.

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 They didn't realize he was actually a person and that we have a message and that there's good news.

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 Wow.

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 So for me, that's super exciting, um, to be able to be in a play. I call it be a big

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 fish in a small pond in the sense that it's not just, Hey, we've got a better,

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 we've got a better worship band, a better preacher, a better something.

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 It's a, we have something that you've never heard before and you need it. This is good news for you.

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 I'm not, I'm not much on, on numbers. And if you listen to the podcast,

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 like we make fun of numbers on, on a regular basis, but I want to put a number on this to

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 help define to the audience, the scope of, of who you are and kind of where you are in your ministry

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 journey. Um, like what, what type of, what's your average attendance on a Sunday? Like what,

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 what does this actually look like? Um, so we had 55 on Sunday. I think our current average is

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 more like 60, but that was, that's probably our current average.

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 What's interesting. And this is, this is a stat that, that I just discovered. Somebody told this

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 to me maybe a week ago, 80% of churches today are under 200, uh, attenders on, on average.

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 And for me, that is, that's an area that I just transparently, and I've said it before, like I

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 wasn't as aware of the small church as probably I should have. Um, and working with Ray and, and some

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 others like the church digital, we're going to start to turn the corner and work more towards

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 not only a mega church, not only a multi-site church, but, but also start to create some resources,

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 uh, towards the smaller church to, to help them. Because the majority of churches by far,

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 the majority of the churches are more like you, Joe, in the, in the, you know, 200 and under range,

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 then, then the, the gigas and, and the, the megas that, that are out there.

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 Yeah. So several years ago, I read something by Seth Godin, where he was saying,

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 what's the best way? And I don't even know what his point was, but he said, what's the best way to, um,

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 reduce car fuel consumption. And he said, is it to increase, uh, like the, the, um,

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 miles per gallon that the top end cars go so that the cars that go 50 miles per hour,

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 or I'm sorry, that go 50 miles per gallon instead get 65 or 75, or is it to take those trucks that get

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 17 and increase those by four? And he said, you can make a bigger difference on gas emissions by,

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 by just increasing the low end a little bit, much more than the, taking the, the cars that get 50

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 miles per gallon and increasing those. He was saying, you can make a bigger difference on that low end.

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 And when we look at the church landscape and there's 300,000 churches in the United States,

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 1300 of them are over 2000. Um, let's say 10,000 of them are over a thousand people.

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 Then if you just increase those 300,000 other churches by 10%, 15%, you would see a massive difference

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 in the Christian landscape across the country, just by empowering those smaller churches to reach 10%

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 more than they're doing, or for some of them reaching anybody. But anyway, um, so anyway,

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 I just think of that analogy that reaching, like really equipping smaller churches, a church like

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 ours, it would be a lot easier for us to double in size than it would be for one of you guys to

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 double in size. Right? Uh, the kinds of things you guys talk about helped me a ton. And so we've got

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 people that follow along and say, Hey, we've been following you guys online for months. And we finally

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 decided to come in the door and then we get the chance to disciple them and walk with them and equip

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 them to begin reaching the people in their circles. That's powerful Joe. So what digital tools are you

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 guys leveraging right now at a church your size? There's a bunch. So this week we're really getting

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 ready for Christmas. We're doing some community Christmas of being involved in other community

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 events for Christmas. We use our website, we use Facebook, we use Instagram, we use a live stream,

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 we use digital invites, we use a mailing list that, uh, of every guest that's come through our church.

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 Um, and then we really build a series package like a larger church would do and use that to invite

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 everybody in our community. So we use Facebook ads. Um, another, another example of what we're using

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 right now is, uh, creating a, uh, for us, we have the good enough designers. We've got really high-end

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 designers who attend our church and that's part of their day job is as a graphic designer. But for us,

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 they basically see this as a ministry tool. So they create motion graphics as both a sermon series bumper,

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 but also as a Facebook invite for our community. Nobody does anything custom for anybody in our

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 community. And so when we like reach out with our stories with, when we reach out with the same kind

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 of tools that they would see online for any other kind of company, people in the community kind of sit

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 up and go, Hey, this might be worth paying attention to. So they're kind of leveraging all of those tools

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 to make sure that our live stream is a front door for people to connect with us, that we can do

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 Facebook invites for people in our community. Um, some of the stuff that I kind of learned from you guys

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 is, I think you guys have had discussions about front door, side door, and only door. Only door is not

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 really a part of our strategy just because we don't have the resources or really the need. We would

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 rather say, Hey, let's let larger churches like Christ Fellowship and Elevation and Life Church.

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 Let's let them reach the people that the only door they'll ever have is online. But can we use, um,

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 video of either all or part of our service so people can kind of can get a flavor of what it would be like

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 to come to our church before comings. And we're kind of, we're part of the discussion I started with

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 you guys was to be figuring out what can we do better because this has been helpful to us, but

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 what can we do to make it even better because it's been a front door for so many, whether it's guests

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 that kind of come in and then just kind of come in once every six months or people that are kind of

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 lurking and kind of saying, is this place for real? Is this a place that I want to go to?

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 We also take those video and then we've turned them into video clips.

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 The part of the idea for us is, since I work hard on my sermon anyway, can we use that the rest of

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 the week to be a blessing and to be an encouragement, not just to go slap it up on YouTube and it's full,

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 you know, link, but to go, is there like 30 seconds or a minute and a half that could be really encouraging

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 for somebody that needs to hear, that needs to hear God's not done with them. And so we kind of go

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 through and take all of the, you know, Adobe Creative Cloud to take motion graphics and to take video

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 clips and to make graphic and podcasts and do all of those things. And so all of those things help us

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 try to disciple during the week and connect people to our church so that they can grow as disciples

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 and then be a part of the mission of reaching this community. Because really what we're after

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 is, can we reach and disciple people to reach the other people that will never come in our doors?

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 Not just to, hey, let's add 15 people, let's add 20 people, let's try and get to be 120 or 200 people.

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 But can we, our vision really is every block, every community, every people. Can we get to the point

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 where we have a family in our church, discipled and engaged in the mission of everybody else on their

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 block? We can't fit all of them in our building. So how do we use digital tools and the in-person,

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 you know, relationships that we have to equip them to reach everybody else?

00:14:11.580 --> 00:14:16.540
 So that's good. How are you now? How are you managing some of those tools like the live stream

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 and the podcast? Is that volunteer driven or are you the person behind the scenes making a lot of that

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 happen? How's that working for you guys?

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 It's mostly volunteer driven. I spend some of my week on some of those things because I'm like,

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 hey, if I'm going to spend that much time preparing a sermon, I might as well make sure it's in a good

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 form for a video clip or a podcast. So some of it I've learned to myself, but it's mostly volunteer

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 driven. So like I said, we've got some really, really capable volunteers who are like, wait,

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 God can use my gifts for the kingdom? Let's do it. And so they just, they take things far

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 beyond what I could ever imagine. That's awesome. And then, you know,

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 not that we're trying to plug a particular tool, but what kind of tools are you guys using for that

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 so that other churches can learn? What kind of live stream tools are you using? What are you guys

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 using for podcasting, et cetera? So it's funny because this week I found out there is a church

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 probably 15 miles away that's spending a hundred thousand dollars upgrading their cameras.

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 And we had, we spent less than a thousand dollars, but our volunteers are good enough

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 that our quality is higher than the hundred thousand dollar camera system.

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 That's good stuff.

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 But the big thing, so we use a, I don't even know the name of it. It's a small Canon HD camera that

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 we said, hey, this is going to probably work. It's going to give us enough of a zoom to work,

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 but most of it is really built around Adobe Creative Cloud, which because of the nonprofit

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 discount, I'm like, it's absolutely worth it too, because it's just so much easier and the volunteers

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 can do it. But we've also used things like Audacity, the free music editing tool for podcasts. That's

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 super helpful because what I find is in this community where people largely have a family

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 religious background, even if they don't practice, they would never come in the door of our church

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 as a first step because that would be to reject their family. And so they will actually download

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 our podcast every week and listen, but they haven't taken that step. Ultimately to follow Jesus,

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 they're going to have to reject their family to follow him. But at this point, I'm like a well-edited

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 sermon podcast, which this may be something helpful to small churches is we do them in series,

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 but then we package them in series, both with our graphics, with an intro and an outro for every

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 every sermon so that it feels like I could binge listen to this series from, we called it Adorn,

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 you know, like lives that make the gospel attractive. It was a look at the book of Titus, but it's like,

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 oh, I could listen to five sermons in this series or failure is not final. I could listen to four

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 sermons from that series and you get a music intro. A couple of other tools that we use that I love is

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 Soundstripe. It's a music subscription.

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 I think it costs about $130 per year, but you then have a license to use custom music in video projects,

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 podcasts, and things like that. And that really ups the level of our production

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 for, like I said, invites,

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 we're going to use Facebook ads, video sermon bumpers, our live stream. We're trying something

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 new. I was meeting with my volunteer after talking with you guys to say, hey,

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 what could we do that would improve our live stream? And we would say, you know what?

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 It's not an introduction from somebody in our church, just doing a video to say, hey,

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 we're so glad you're here. This is the series that we're in right now. Run the sermon bumper that we've

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 already made, and then goes into the service and then leave that. Helps kind of give somebody a

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 connection point of, oh, there's some intention to this. And at the end, they ask me to reach out

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 and give their contact info. I love what you're doing here, Joe, in the sense of you're making it very

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 personable. And again, I think there's a lot of churches, my church included, we all share our sermons

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 online on podcasts. We use actually sermon.net. So I'm not the brains behind that, but I'll just share that if

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 anybody wants to know that. But we just share our sermons. The fact that you're doing an intro and an exit to

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 that really makes it personable. And someone can really kind of maybe identify with that a little

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 bit more. Same thing with your live stream. You know, having someone welcome everyone and greet

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 everyone. We stream our, we live stream our church services, but you know, unless I'm, you know, because

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 I do a lot of the mid-service stuff and the end announcements, unless I'm directly talking to the

00:18:32.060 --> 00:18:38.060
 people online from stage, which is kind of weird because we've got people in our campus right there,

00:18:38.060 --> 00:18:43.020
 but you know, we're, I'm talking to the people in the state, in the auditorium,

00:18:43.020 --> 00:18:48.380
 and also the people online. But I like how you're making it very personable. And I think that that

00:18:48.380 --> 00:18:53.660
 draws a connection so that maybe when they do come in through the front door, they can maybe see that

00:18:53.660 --> 00:18:57.020
 person and say, Oh yeah, I saw you online.

00:18:57.020 --> 00:19:02.460
 Yeah. And they do say that. And so that's kind of my hope for having other people in the church get

00:19:02.460 --> 00:19:06.780
 featured, but they will say, Oh, we know you. Cause we've seen, we've been your website and we've

00:19:06.780 --> 00:19:11.740
 watched the videos. Like we know you, Joe, even though I've, you know, I've never met them before.

00:19:11.740 --> 00:19:16.780
 And so we actually got the idea for the intro and outro and stuff from stuff that I saw you do, Tom,

00:19:17.420 --> 00:19:24.140
 is I was like, there's more in their live stream and it's super helpful. So how can we make our

00:19:24.140 --> 00:19:29.740
 live stream? Not just a video of our service. Hey, just watch a video of the service, but instead,

00:19:29.740 --> 00:19:33.820
 Hey, please connect with us. Like, let's make this personal. Let's make this intentional.

00:19:33.820 --> 00:19:39.100
 The other thing that we, that may be helpful to other small churches and, um, is to begin to

00:19:39.100 --> 00:19:43.180
 think through all of the stuff that you guys talk about. So you guys interviewed leaders who talk

00:19:43.180 --> 00:19:48.300
 about pop-up churches and some other things to begin to think through all of those things

00:19:48.300 --> 00:19:54.060
 through the lens of how am I actually blessing and equipping people right where they're at right now.

00:19:55.020 --> 00:20:00.780
 So that instead of it in the church world, we can easily be, Hey, look at me, come here,

00:20:00.780 --> 00:20:07.580
 come and do this. We, I've tried to tell our people regularly, like, let's maybe once per week,

00:20:07.580 --> 00:20:12.780
 invite somebody to something. Let's instead try to figure out how do we bless them and encourage

00:20:12.780 --> 00:20:16.380
 them right where they're at right now. Let's let the live stream be a current blessing,

00:20:16.380 --> 00:20:22.220
 not the live stream as an invitation to some kind of youth event or some kind of other event. Use

00:20:22.220 --> 00:20:28.380
 every digital tool to say, you can actually hear about Jesus today. You don't have to wait to hear

00:20:28.380 --> 00:20:35.100
 about Jesus on Sunday. You can, your marriage can be benefited today, not later down the road.

00:20:35.100 --> 00:20:39.500
 So are you purposefully driving toward the next step for the folks watching the live stream as well?

00:20:39.500 --> 00:20:42.380
 Encouraging not just the people in the room, but the people on the live stream and saying,

00:20:42.380 --> 00:20:45.980
 Hey, this next step is for you too. Like, are you directing that at them as well?

00:20:45.980 --> 00:20:49.580
 That's what we talked about this week where we said, Hey, how do we,

00:20:49.580 --> 00:20:57.500
 they're already connecting and watching the live stream. We've got faces. We've got fairly good

00:20:57.500 --> 00:21:03.260
 production quality at this point. How do we use that to not just drop the ball and say, well,

00:21:03.260 --> 00:21:07.660
 hopefully, hopefully we see you again next week, but to say, Hey, can you connect with us? Can you give

00:21:07.660 --> 00:21:12.700
 us your contact info so we can reach out? If we can pray for you, can you let us know? The answer is,

00:21:12.700 --> 00:21:16.300
 we're trying to head in that direction. One of the things that we've done at CF

00:21:16.300 --> 00:21:21.980
 and Jeff was part of this too, is we've created a standardized URL that leads to a form. That's

00:21:21.980 --> 00:21:27.580
 basically our online connection card that we leverage both in our on-demand services. And also,

00:21:28.300 --> 00:21:31.900
 I'm at the end of every live stream where, Hey, if you want to connect with us,

00:21:31.900 --> 00:21:37.900
 go to CFMiami.org slash online or slash connect for us. It's been online and it drives towards that

00:21:37.900 --> 00:21:43.100
 connection card. I even got it as a pop-up as soon as I hit that site. Boom. It's in their face and it

00:21:43.100 --> 00:21:49.100
 gives them the same options that they have with a physical card in our context as well, just to drive

00:21:49.100 --> 00:21:54.860
 towards that next step of, Hey, we want to connect with you. Or in some cases, Hey, you know, if you want to,

00:21:54.860 --> 00:21:58.460
 you know, if you, if you pray to prayer to receive Christ, you know, and you want to take that next

00:21:58.460 --> 00:22:03.340
 step in baptism, we want to connect with you. All that stuff is there so that it gives them an option

00:22:03.340 --> 00:22:06.860
 to connect with us. And then from there, we've got to do the follow-up. We've got to do the real-time

00:22:06.860 --> 00:22:11.900
 pastoring of exactly like what you guys do. When you receive data, when data comes into your context,

00:22:11.900 --> 00:22:17.900
 live at church, that it drives towards that next step of helping them get connected. And that's worked out

00:22:17.900 --> 00:22:23.660
 well for us. That makes sense. And that's an easy thing to do. Any, so anybody who's listening to this

00:22:23.660 --> 00:22:27.900
 and is in a small church, I recommend Squarespace for a number of reasons, but one of which is the

00:22:27.900 --> 00:22:32.700
 thing that Ray just talked about is something that you can easily do. We do that for Easter series. We

00:22:32.700 --> 00:22:39.580
 do that for any big series that we do. We can make a landing page that gives contact ability like that.

00:22:39.580 --> 00:22:45.420
 And so that idea Ray just had is easy to work on, especially if you're at a small church. Squarespace

00:22:45.420 --> 00:22:50.540
 means you can do that as many times as you want. Yeah, exactly. And, and, and I think having one

00:22:50.540 --> 00:22:55.580
 standardized URL that you're leveraging the entire time this way, you know, no matter what series

00:22:55.580 --> 00:23:02.540
 you're in, the URL stays the same. So, you know, in our context for cfmime.org/online, it's just been

00:23:02.540 --> 00:23:08.460
 that communicated over and over and over again. And it's been like a driver so that no matter what episode

00:23:08.460 --> 00:23:12.540
 they're listening to is they're binging. It's the same thing over and over again in their ear. Ah,

00:23:12.540 --> 00:23:15.740
 I've got to connect. I've got to connect. I've got to connect. And I know where to go to.

00:23:16.380 --> 00:23:18.940
 It's a good thing to have. Cool. That's a good tip.

00:23:18.940 --> 00:23:22.380
 What is the URL with you guys? Is it cfmime.org/connect?

00:23:23.180 --> 00:23:27.980
 It's slash online. We used to do slash connect and actually slash connect actually drives back

00:23:27.980 --> 00:23:31.820
 to online because I was like, all right. So for all of our former episodes, I've got to make sure

00:23:32.380 --> 00:23:37.420
 that, uh, that we've got, that we've got it like all, all working together and it works great.

00:23:37.420 --> 00:23:41.660
 And it's, it's actually helped increase the amount of engagement that we get online. Like

00:23:41.660 --> 00:23:45.660
 we get more small group signups. We're getting more, we're getting more engagement in terms of

00:23:45.660 --> 00:23:50.780
 people wanting to connect more. And then for us, we're even taking further next steps of treating

00:23:50.780 --> 00:23:55.740
 them like a first time guest, like we would live. And so in a lot of cases, I'm even sending them,

00:23:56.300 --> 00:24:01.020
 you know, like our first time guest gift if possible, you know, like if they, if they give us the data,

00:24:01.020 --> 00:24:06.300
 if they engage with us also in our context, we do a mug for like a first time guest gift,

00:24:06.300 --> 00:24:12.140
 but we've also leveraged content, uh, free content, like a song download from our worship team,

00:24:12.700 --> 00:24:18.860
 you know, or, or maybe Joe, if you've got something that, Hey, here's like an extra bonus sermon

00:24:19.420 --> 00:24:23.660
 from me that you want, that you can't get anywhere else. That's stuff that we've been toying around

00:24:23.660 --> 00:24:28.780
 with or to give extra added incentive. And that idea, that idea kind of sparked from, you know,

00:24:28.780 --> 00:24:33.100
 kind of the old days when we would listen to, uh, you know, people on the radio messages on the radio

00:24:33.100 --> 00:24:37.180
 and say, Hey, if you connect with us, we'll send you a book. I was like, well, they might not want a book,

00:24:37.180 --> 00:24:42.300
 but they might want extra bonus content for free. And that's stuff that we got. Let's just leverage it

00:24:42.300 --> 00:24:47.820
 and send it to them. Yeah. That's a really good idea. I've, I've toyed with that kind of an idea,

00:24:48.300 --> 00:24:54.860
 just around surrounding our community, being the hub for our community, like things to do or something.

00:24:55.340 --> 00:25:02.780
 But that would actually be pretty easy, um, to figure out because, you know, in churches,

00:25:02.780 --> 00:25:08.300
 we come up with material all the time for all sorts of different purposes. And it would be easy to

00:25:08.300 --> 00:25:13.580
 package a PDF of something. Absolutely. Yeah. If you could give them like a quick download,

00:25:13.580 --> 00:25:19.180
 like, Hey, here's my ebook. I love that. We've toyed with that. Um, I think we actually did some

00:25:19.180 --> 00:25:23.980
 of that back, back in the day with, I mean, and there's so, it's so easier to do this now where,

00:25:23.980 --> 00:25:29.820
 but we had, um, back in the day we had a, like a, I want to say she was a 90 year old lady

00:25:30.460 --> 00:25:36.460
 who would literally type out the message, the manuscript messages of it. Um, do you remember

00:25:36.460 --> 00:25:42.860
 her name, Ray? What was her name? She, she, oh man, no, no, we were, we lived in Miami literally

00:25:42.860 --> 00:25:49.420
 was this 90 year old lady who lived in, uh, I want to say Oklahoma city and she would watch the messages

00:25:49.420 --> 00:25:54.220
 online. She would doubt she would like recorded on a cassette player. And she had one of those like

00:25:54.220 --> 00:25:59.820
 transcriber machines where she'd type it and then like use the foot pedals to pause the audio tape

00:25:59.820 --> 00:26:05.900
 and literally just type this thing out. And, uh, we started giving it away as books, like at the,

00:26:05.900 --> 00:26:10.860
 at the front desk and then ended up turning it into like PDFs that we would give away as well. And that

00:26:10.860 --> 00:26:19.260
 was, that was well received for a season. You can go to Timmy.com T E M I.com. And, uh, it's,

00:26:19.260 --> 00:26:26.460
 it's what I use to manuscript out my, my podcasts. It's essentially like, um, 10 cents a minute to get

00:26:26.460 --> 00:26:32.700
 it typed out. So if you're preaching a 20 minute message, it's two bucks. Um,

00:26:32.700 --> 00:26:40.860
 That's a win. Yes. Huge win. And it's like 85, 90% accurate. The majority of it's, you know, I,

00:26:40.860 --> 00:26:49.180
 I pay somebody like $15 to go in and clean it up, but it's, it's very good. T E M I.com. And so,

00:26:49.180 --> 00:26:54.620
 but you, once you get that text, then you can turn it into PDFs and eBooks and, and, and whatever you

00:26:54.620 --> 00:27:03.420
 want to put it on, on a webpage. The reason I put it on my blogs is SEO value is huge. And so a lot of

00:27:03.420 --> 00:27:07.980
 these, these blogs that I've done, people are searching for, and it generates a lot of traffic

00:27:07.980 --> 00:27:14.780
 to the website. Um, basically because I taught, did a podcast on it and I used the word a bunch,

00:27:14.780 --> 00:27:20.460
 and then I turned that into a manuscript that Google could pick up. So that would actually be super helpful,

00:27:20.460 --> 00:27:29.260
 um, to that, uh, uh, to making your series like bingeable because if you had on your sermon page,

00:27:29.260 --> 00:27:37.100
 a, um, you had both the audio video and the transcription and maybe some study guide questions

00:27:37.100 --> 00:27:43.900
 that could be super useful to people down the road because then they have every kind of format that

00:27:43.900 --> 00:27:48.780
 they want for that. You can use it. Somebody could use it as a small group curriculum. Um,

00:27:48.780 --> 00:27:52.940
 that would be super helpful to put in a place like on your podcast or on your sermon page,

00:27:52.940 --> 00:27:56.700
 instead of just having audio, you could put all of those things, make it bingeable.

00:27:56.700 --> 00:28:03.900
 For me, one of the things that, that I kind of look at when I look at some of these online

00:28:04.540 --> 00:28:09.900
 small churches, uh, that are, that are doing this honestly, and, and Joe, like I, I've not seen your

00:28:09.900 --> 00:28:16.700
 stuff, so I don't want to be like labeling here, but it's, it's low quality video and I'm a video guy

00:28:16.700 --> 00:28:23.420
 and there's, there's a high level of forgiveness on video, but a lot of times smaller churches struggle to,

00:28:24.220 --> 00:28:30.780
 to pull something off live that honestly, I don't know that has to be live. Like there's ways that

00:28:30.780 --> 00:28:37.100
 you can sim live it, or there's ways that you can, can fake the liveness or pre-record something

00:28:37.100 --> 00:28:43.340
 in an easier format that doesn't necessarily have the audience like, or the, the wide shot that, that,

00:28:43.340 --> 00:28:49.820
 that's further away. Um, like, so if you're not like, if you're not wanting to do worship in the broadcast,

00:28:50.540 --> 00:28:54.540
 you know, one of the things that I, that I've talked with, uh, with pastors in the past on,

00:28:55.100 --> 00:29:00.860
 Joe, and I'm just curious, how long's your message typically? Uh, between 20 and 28 minutes.

00:29:01.500 --> 00:29:05.740
 Well, that's actually on the short side. I honestly, I'm just going to be transparent.

00:29:05.740 --> 00:29:10.940
 I don't know that I've met a pastor who's preaching a 20 minute message. So well done.

00:29:10.940 --> 00:29:16.700
 Um, the majority of pastors, I, yeah, the majority of pastors I talked to are, you know, in that 40 range,

00:29:16.700 --> 00:29:22.860
 uh, my, the church that I, that I attend Christ journey, uh, bill preaches about 30 to 35, but

00:29:22.860 --> 00:29:29.740
 uh, previously it was 40 to 50. And so, you know, I would encourage a lot of times to preach a shorter

00:29:29.740 --> 00:29:36.300
 message online. Uh, you know, maybe it was like the opening and the point one and point three and

00:29:36.300 --> 00:29:41.420
 the closing, you cut out point two, or sometimes some of the longer stories or illustrations that

00:29:41.420 --> 00:29:49.260
 can kind of get cut to, to make it more, uh, easier to digest for an online audience,

00:29:49.260 --> 00:29:53.820
 especially if you're trying to reach that front door person, that visitor, that person's probably,

00:29:53.820 --> 00:29:58.540
 and if you're a longer sermon, that's the person's probably not going to hang around for a 40 minute

00:29:58.540 --> 00:30:06.140
 broadcast. But if you could preach a smaller sermon on a Thursday, on a Friday, on a Saturday,

00:30:06.140 --> 00:30:15.180
 just even consider it a rough draft, a trial run on the message, preach it. And then you can bookend

00:30:15.180 --> 00:30:23.180
 creative video for like front door people around it. Uh, maybe it's a two minute welcome that shows,

00:30:23.740 --> 00:30:29.980
 you know, the, the campus, your church and how to check in kids or, um, you know, something else that,

00:30:29.980 --> 00:30:35.500
 that's more designed to help people get connected to your church from that front door status.

00:30:36.140 --> 00:30:43.180
 You can record all this stuff before the Sunday morning service. And even in an, um, a much more

00:30:43.180 --> 00:30:48.700
 creative welcoming environment than like the worship center would be, the camera could be much closer

00:30:48.700 --> 00:30:56.700
 to get your detail of it. Um, and then render that video down. There are services like, uh, restream.io,

00:30:56.700 --> 00:31:05.500
 uh, that is where you can upload the, to the cloud and you can use restream to actually schedule the

00:31:05.500 --> 00:31:10.780
 playback of these, of that video file. Christ Fellowship Ray uses it every week.

00:31:10.780 --> 00:31:11.740
 Absolutely. Yeah.

00:31:11.740 --> 00:31:17.740
 I, I want to say you've been on one year, two years. I think I did that before I left. So yeah,

00:31:17.740 --> 00:31:25.180
 you've been on restream for two years where essentially, yeah, they are, uh, they upload,

00:31:25.180 --> 00:31:28.620
 um, and I'm going to let the cat out of the bag. Sorry, Ray, but they upload their Saturday night

00:31:28.620 --> 00:31:34.780
 service and, uh, and they ended, they edit in announcements and things like that and then

00:31:34.780 --> 00:31:41.980
 upload it to restream. And that plays back Sunday morning, like at the time they specify. And so it,

00:31:41.980 --> 00:31:47.740
 it feels live, it looks live, but it's got content outside of what happens in the service.

00:31:48.460 --> 00:31:53.260
 And so your content, you can even spend some of your message to really aim more towards those

00:31:53.260 --> 00:32:00.300
 front door people without having to sacrifice what happens in the worship center. Does that kind of

00:32:00.300 --> 00:32:05.740
 make sense? You ever thought about something like that, Joe? Yeah. So when we started having that

00:32:05.740 --> 00:32:09.340
 conversation last week, I've just began brainstorming, man, what are all the different models that you

00:32:09.340 --> 00:32:15.020
 could do? Cause different churches have different needs. Yeah. Some of them have that too big of a

00:32:15.020 --> 00:32:21.580
 wide shot. Um, or the pastor is preaching specifically just to the people in the room.

00:32:22.540 --> 00:32:26.940
 And that, so that makes total sense to kind of break the mold and say, Hey, what are the different

00:32:26.940 --> 00:32:34.700
 things that we do best and that could communicate best to other people? Um, if, if you're cutting,

00:32:34.700 --> 00:32:40.300
 like just straight up, if you're cutting worship out of the mix, using a restream, in my opinion,

00:32:40.300 --> 00:32:48.300
 is a lot cheaper than doing something like a, uh, a wire cast where you're going to start to,

00:32:48.300 --> 00:32:59.340
 to time slip that message around, um, other sim live elements, like a prerecorded, um, you know,

00:32:59.340 --> 00:33:05.420
 welcome to visitors and guests. That's different than the live, like live is easy to do when you've

00:33:05.420 --> 00:33:12.620
 got a solid block of content that is live. But if you're trying to mix live with prerecorded,

00:33:12.620 --> 00:33:19.340
 um, it just gets, especially on a small church, uh, because I'm assuming, you know, most small churches,

00:33:19.340 --> 00:33:24.700
 they want to keep it, or they should keep it simple because things tend to like roll on top of it.

00:33:24.700 --> 00:33:28.700
 And all of a sudden you're over budget for what you're trying to do, you know, try to either keep

00:33:28.700 --> 00:33:35.980
 it all live or keep everything prerecorded and then figure out a way to, you know, prerecord some

00:33:35.980 --> 00:33:41.500
 sort of a simple message. But it was fun. Like there was, there was a, one of my clients was a small

00:33:41.500 --> 00:33:47.500
 church. I say it maybe, maybe 250, maybe 200 people. It's probably the average church in America.

00:33:47.500 --> 00:33:54.540
 Honestly, it was a church plant five year old. They met in a, basically like a theater, uh, a lecture

00:33:54.540 --> 00:34:01.580
 hall. And so if the camera was in the back of the auditorium and that was maybe a hundred,

00:34:02.140 --> 00:34:09.980
 150 foot like shoot. And so we had to get a very big lens to get close to it. They ended up spending

00:34:09.980 --> 00:34:16.140
 a lot of money and for this, but it was still, it was like, it was a head to toe shot. Um, and actually

00:34:16.140 --> 00:34:21.660
 they had a screen above them that they wanted to work in. So, you know, the actual teacher was very

00:34:21.660 --> 00:34:28.060
 small on this lockdown shot and the teacher was, was walking around the stage and we'd look at their

00:34:28.060 --> 00:34:37.980
 Facebook stats and they'd get 150, maybe 250 views. Um, and it, and it just, it wasn't, it wasn't great,

00:34:37.980 --> 00:34:41.020
 but it was, it was okay. They thought it, they thought it was as good as it was going to get.

00:34:41.820 --> 00:34:47.500
 There was a, there was a month where the camera broke and instead of using that wide shot,

00:34:48.220 --> 00:34:55.100
 the, the university actually had like pan tilt zoom cameras built in. And so they paid a little

00:34:55.100 --> 00:35:01.260
 extra to utilize those cameras. Well, the cameras were further up and they had a much tighter face.

00:35:01.980 --> 00:35:11.020
 Um, and the, the engagement on those videos were like five fold. It went from 150 to 250 to like

00:35:11.580 --> 00:35:20.700
 750 to 1200 and same, same, same preacher. So it's not, it's, it's not like it's paid advertising that,

00:35:20.700 --> 00:35:25.020
 that drove it up. They, they treated the videos the same way. Everything was related

00:35:25.020 --> 00:35:31.180
 related to how the video looked in the frame. And I know a lot of times, you know, you're trying to,

00:35:32.060 --> 00:35:38.700
 trying to have a camera in the back, trying to be unobtrusive. Um, and that being further away

00:35:39.420 --> 00:35:44.540
 doesn't give people the emotional connection to, to the face, to the detail, to the person speaking.

00:35:45.260 --> 00:35:50.060
 And that if you can get that much closer, I, and I've seen it, you're going to get a much better

00:35:50.060 --> 00:35:52.700
 product out of it and people are going to engage at a much higher rate.

00:35:53.420 --> 00:35:55.100
 Absolutely. That's good.

00:35:55.100 --> 00:35:59.820
 I actually think it would be worth it for you. I don't know, in some form written or video or something

00:35:59.820 --> 00:36:05.900
 to explain some of those video practices for pastors or churches in small contexts.

00:36:06.540 --> 00:36:12.060
 So our, uh, our main volunteer was, you know, doing a bunch of research to figure out,

00:36:12.060 --> 00:36:17.820
 hey, what's the best way to film? How do we, you know, what's the angles that we want to be at?

00:36:17.820 --> 00:36:23.980
 How do we even want to control the camera for the best effect? Because you can have a really nice

00:36:23.980 --> 00:36:28.940
 camera, but if you control it poorly, then you just don't get your money's worth. So that would be totally worth

00:36:28.940 --> 00:36:36.540
 worth a discussion, um, or some kind of a tutorial because yeah, being up close just makes a big

00:36:36.540 --> 00:36:42.220
 difference. I get tired of seeing my own face on our churches stuff, but people want to see a face.

00:36:42.780 --> 00:36:43.420
 Yeah, absolutely.

00:36:43.420 --> 00:36:50.300
 And so we just keep doing it, uh, try to include other faces as possible as well, but, um, people

00:36:50.300 --> 00:36:56.300
 want to see a face and if it's super far back, then they can't visualize themselves go into that

00:36:56.300 --> 00:36:59.340
 church. They don't have any clue who the pastor is, what it looks like.

00:37:00.060 --> 00:37:05.660
 And that would be the luxury of pre-recording this because that camera can get much closer.

00:37:05.660 --> 00:37:11.740
 I don't have to worry about audience in the room. Audio gets much clearer, uh, because you're

00:37:11.740 --> 00:37:17.260
 probably just utilizing a microphone that's on me straight to the computer pack instead of going

00:37:17.260 --> 00:37:21.740
 through front of house instead of a bunch of other RF that could conflict. And if there is issues,

00:37:21.740 --> 00:37:27.740
 I can just stop and start back over instead of kind of struggling with any issues that pop up in

00:37:27.740 --> 00:37:33.500
 the live venue. Um, I have, I pitched this to a pastor once and he's like, well, it feels inauthentic.

00:37:33.500 --> 00:37:38.380
 And I'm like, oh, really? Like the average person's going to really pick up on that.

00:37:38.380 --> 00:37:42.780
 I know sometimes it's difficult to preach to a lens. Uh, I've, I've been down that road and

00:37:42.780 --> 00:37:47.260
 I know that pain point, but I think you get a much richer quality kind of running out of this.

00:37:47.260 --> 00:37:49.180
 So anyway, Ray, what do you got?

00:37:50.060 --> 00:37:54.860
 Well, I was going to say, Joe, uh, do you interact with the camera, um, at all as you're talking to

00:37:54.860 --> 00:37:58.620
 your online audience? No, not right now. Not at all.

00:37:58.620 --> 00:38:03.820
 Man, that's something that I would encourage big time, addressing the people looking straight

00:38:03.820 --> 00:38:09.180
 into the camera and addressing them as well, because it, it lets them know. And believe me,

00:38:09.180 --> 00:38:13.820
 for those of us who are watching on the back end of the screen, it feels like you're staring us right

00:38:13.820 --> 00:38:18.300
 in the eyes and that you're talking right to us. And so like Jeff said, moving the camera

00:38:18.300 --> 00:38:23.100
 up will help. But then as soon as that camera is moved up and you're addressing the camera directly,

00:38:23.100 --> 00:38:26.220
 man, now it feels like you're talking to me almost like we're having a cup of coffee.

00:38:26.780 --> 00:38:33.980
 And so that changes the engagement way up in terms of, ah, Joe is talking directly to me.

00:38:35.100 --> 00:38:40.380
 And this message is for me. I'm telling you that that that'll be a game changer in terms of

00:38:40.380 --> 00:38:42.940
 your online preaching. It'll be huge.

00:38:42.940 --> 00:38:47.420
 What I normally advise, if you do keep the camera in the, when the worship center,

00:38:47.420 --> 00:38:52.540
 I know a lot of teachers, they'll pick up five or six spots or people in the room and they just

00:38:52.540 --> 00:38:56.540
 dance back and forth. The lead communicators will dance back and forth between those five or six,

00:38:57.100 --> 00:38:59.500
 just looking because that's their pre-programmed spots.

00:39:00.060 --> 00:39:03.020
 Make one of, make one of the spots you stop on the camera.

00:39:03.020 --> 00:39:08.540
 And so even if you're, even if you get 10% eye contact where you're drilling in on that camera,

00:39:09.420 --> 00:39:13.900
 that's a huge win to that, that audience. Cause they're feeling like you're connecting with them

00:39:13.900 --> 00:39:20.540
 live. Um, and if you're doing the prerecorded stuff, man, just drill into the camera. There's

00:39:20.540 --> 00:39:27.020
 even teleprompters that, that you can get setups and, and iPads and, and software for that. Then

00:39:27.020 --> 00:39:32.700
 telepromp plus is one that we've used in the past. Um, I'm not sure what Christ fellowships use in these

00:39:32.700 --> 00:39:39.020
 days, but basically like it's the teleprompter just smack in front of the lens. And, um, I'm,

00:39:39.020 --> 00:39:43.180
 I'm literally reading from the teleprompter at the same time that I'm looking at the lens and people

00:39:43.180 --> 00:39:50.060
 can't even realize that I'm, you know, faking this. Like it's so, and it's so easy today compared to,

00:39:50.060 --> 00:39:54.300
 you know, 10, 20 years ago when you had to pay all this equipment and it's really, it's,

00:39:54.300 --> 00:39:57.660
 it's a, it's an iPad, it's an iPhone, it's stuff that you already have.

00:39:57.660 --> 00:40:02.460
 So, right. The other thing that it does, Joe, is that it definitely adds credibility to the

00:40:02.460 --> 00:40:07.420
 people who are listening in the room to encourage other people to watch online. That's kind of like

00:40:07.420 --> 00:40:12.140
 the weird spinoff that it does is it helps create a relationship between that online and offline

00:40:12.140 --> 00:40:16.380
 audience of folks who are engaging because people are in the room are like, oh, wait a minute. Joe's

00:40:16.380 --> 00:40:22.300
 talking to them too. That's serious. Maybe I do need to share this with somebody else. And then for,

00:40:22.300 --> 00:40:26.540
 and then for those who are watching online, they're like, oh, he, he does see and care about me.

00:40:26.540 --> 00:40:28.300
 And he does know that I'm listening and watching it.

00:40:28.300 --> 00:40:33.580
 I'm, I'm, I'm curious with this. What percentage of people do you think are front door versus side

00:40:33.580 --> 00:40:40.220
 door right now with, with your broadcast? Well, there's no question. It's yeah, you're 90% front

00:40:40.220 --> 00:40:47.020
 door. The reason, the reason is, so the reason is, and I'm going to kind of put some numbers and some

00:40:47.020 --> 00:40:54.380
 of this stuff in context. So we're a small church growing from like a handful of people. But we're also

00:40:54.380 --> 00:40:58.460
 dealing with some of the things that small churches deal with relational issues. What are the leadership

00:40:58.460 --> 00:41:04.140
 structures need to look like? You know, like what is excellence to look like when volunteer bases load?

00:41:04.140 --> 00:41:12.140
 We do with those kinds of things. But our, our last service has been viewed 240 times, which I don't love

00:41:12.140 --> 00:41:18.300
 Facebook stats because I sometimes I don't know what's how many seconds they're counting. But if I look at it,

00:41:18.300 --> 00:41:26.940
 it's saying 240 people have watched our last service. And we have, but we had 55 people there. So there's no question

00:41:26.940 --> 00:41:33.180
 that the people that are watching our service right now don't come on a give. Most of them don't come on a given

00:41:33.180 --> 00:41:38.540
 Sunday. So if we have an average attend, like if we, if everybody came in the same week and we're at like,

00:41:38.540 --> 00:41:46.540
 we have probably 80 to 90, you know, something like that. But if we're in and on a given week,

00:41:46.540 --> 00:41:52.380
 normally having 150 to 250 people watching our service, either live or during the week,

00:41:52.380 --> 00:41:55.580
 then that tells me most of our views are front door views.

00:41:55.580 --> 00:42:02.380
 Yeah. The reason I asked is, is because, and there was a Kerry Newhoff article that popped up on my

00:42:02.380 --> 00:42:10.380
 Twitter feed, uh, today, um, where he's, he's quoting a Rich Birch article, uh, talking about how

00:42:10.380 --> 00:42:16.140
 church online is a distraction to the majority of churches that are out there. And, um, I've,

00:42:16.140 --> 00:42:21.260
 I've just, this is an older article. I think it's been around a year or so. And, and, and historically,

00:42:21.260 --> 00:42:28.460
 I've gone from, I'm furious to, I agree with him to like, he's not even understanding the concept

00:42:28.460 --> 00:42:34.060
 of what church online could be, or refuses to acknowledge it. Um, but, but the, the point that

00:42:34.060 --> 00:42:39.980
 he's, he's trying to do with what we're just trying to show with church online being a distraction is

00:42:39.980 --> 00:42:46.860
 that there's no purpose in church online with the majority of churches that are doing it. They're

00:42:46.860 --> 00:42:53.820
 broadcasting their services merely because they can. Um, the thing that I like about you, Joe,

00:42:53.820 --> 00:43:00.460
 and, and, and what you're describing is you're describing intentionality towards utilizing church

00:43:00.460 --> 00:43:07.820
 online to be the front door to drive people to attend your service. I, I, what you're talking about

00:43:07.820 --> 00:43:13.260
 is more intentionality than, uh, than I think I see from a lot of even some of the smaller churches,

00:43:13.260 --> 00:43:18.060
 but also some of the bigger churches that, that are out there. And I'm just curious, like,

00:43:18.060 --> 00:43:23.420
 do you feel that tension of, of what that intentionality looks like? Or how did you, as a,

00:43:23.980 --> 00:43:31.900
 as a church plant pastor, as a, you know, rejuvenating a campus, how did you come to this conclusion that

00:43:31.900 --> 00:43:39.100
 we have to have church online to be the front door, as opposed to it's a, it's, it's going to keep people

00:43:39.100 --> 00:43:44.140
 out of the building, which is probably what the average church your size would, would respond to.

00:43:45.100 --> 00:43:48.860
 Yeah. So, uh, the biggest thing is

00:43:50.700 --> 00:43:54.700
 coming into this situation, really, it was really while I was finishing school down in Louisville.

00:43:55.500 --> 00:44:04.140
 Um, my wife and I were just like, we just, we want to find a place to go make a circle on the map and

00:44:04.140 --> 00:44:08.620
 say, we're going to reach these people right here. We can't worry about anybody outside of that. We're

00:44:08.620 --> 00:44:12.620
 going to reach the people that are right here. We're going to make sure that the people in that circle

00:44:13.180 --> 00:44:16.860
 get the chance to hear and experience the gospel through our lives and through the church.

00:44:17.580 --> 00:44:22.860
 And so just having this intentionality of this, these are the people that we're responsible for.

00:44:23.500 --> 00:44:28.780
 This is what we're going to reach these people. Um, that might mean a small church. It might mean a

00:44:28.780 --> 00:44:32.300
 large church. We don't know what that looks like, except we're just going to draw a circle on the map.

00:44:32.300 --> 00:44:36.460
 This is our responsibility. And we're going to take that responsibility seriously. And so then we come

00:44:36.460 --> 00:44:44.620
 into the situation and I, I never thought, uh, video was going to be my deal. Um, kind of, as an aside,

00:44:44.620 --> 00:44:48.860
 part of that failed church plan also had business. I mean, I was working in business and personal

00:44:48.860 --> 00:44:53.980
 training and I worked in sales and marketing in the middle of all that and ended up realizing so much

00:44:53.980 --> 00:44:59.740
 is happening online, business-wise, marketing-wise, attention-wise, that we cannot ignore that and

00:44:59.740 --> 00:45:04.300
 just hope that people will walk in the door of our church. And so we just kind of came into and said,

00:45:04.300 --> 00:45:09.820
 what tools do we need to use to reach the people that we're responsible for? And we can,

00:45:09.820 --> 00:45:14.220
 we could have a Wednesday night prayer meeting, or I could spend some time and make a 10, 15 minute

00:45:14.220 --> 00:45:20.060
 video with a devotion and people that I know from the chamber of commerce that don't attend our church

00:45:20.060 --> 00:45:24.540
 are going to watch every video that I make. You know, they're going to, my, my neighbors have,

00:45:24.540 --> 00:45:29.580
 on my street have never attended a service. None of them have, but several of them said,

00:45:29.580 --> 00:45:33.500
 oh, we follow exactly what your church is doing and we know exactly what you're doing.

00:45:33.500 --> 00:45:39.980
 And so I just, I realized I don't want to rely online as a cop-out, but more as a magnifier

00:45:39.980 --> 00:45:43.980
 of the ministry that we can do. You know, I want to preach a good sermon on a Sunday,

00:45:43.980 --> 00:45:48.620
 but the point is not to preach a good sermon on a Sunday. It's actually to preach and disciple in

00:45:48.620 --> 00:45:52.620
 such a way that people make a difference in the lives of the people in our community the rest of the

00:45:52.620 --> 00:45:58.860
 the week. So digital stuff is, is a tool for that. And when I look at like large churches or larger

00:45:58.860 --> 00:46:05.100
 churches with lots of resources and they like, aren't using it and not saying, hey, we can use

00:46:05.100 --> 00:46:10.620
 this to reach all of the people in our community in a way that we never could have before. It makes me

00:46:10.620 --> 00:46:15.580
 want to pull my hair out. I'm like, are you kidding me? Like you guys have the potential to reach so

00:46:15.580 --> 00:46:23.660
 many of the people that are in and around your congregation. And you know, I just think that it's,

00:46:23.660 --> 00:46:28.220
 it's worth it for those kids in our community that will never hear about love. If we don't tell them

00:46:28.220 --> 00:46:34.060
 about God's love, um, the people dealing with shame and guilt will never get to know the remedy to the

00:46:34.060 --> 00:46:41.260
 shame and guilt that they carry if we don't tell them. And so we'll use all of the tools that we can

00:46:41.260 --> 00:46:48.380
 do and to do that faithfully. That's a great perspective from, from a, from a smaller church.

00:46:48.380 --> 00:46:54.700
 Like I, I just, I've not, I don't hear a lot of that. It's more of what's, what's in front of me,

00:46:54.700 --> 00:47:01.100
 as opposed to the, the larger kingdom aspect. The thing that I think has impressed me most,

00:47:01.100 --> 00:47:07.260
 and we didn't even really drill into it, is this idea of, of trying to get people on their blocks.

00:47:07.260 --> 00:47:13.340
 Like you want to get someone to get out there and disciple the, the, what was the term you used for

00:47:13.340 --> 00:47:19.420
 it? The, the, a family on every block almost approach, right? Like where did that idea come from?

00:47:20.460 --> 00:47:25.660
 So man, I kicked and screamed about the vision process. I was like, every church has the same

00:47:25.660 --> 00:47:30.540
 vision, love God, love others, reach the world, connect with God, connect with others. Every

00:47:30.540 --> 00:47:36.220
 church has the same one. And I hope I'm not stepping on you guys' toes by quoting your visions. And I was

00:47:36.220 --> 00:47:41.820
 like, this is a stupid process. And kind of my, you know, the, my superior, the guy from our district

00:47:41.820 --> 00:47:45.660
 office, who's kind of helping me with the church planting, held my feet to the fire and said, no,

00:47:45.660 --> 00:47:51.260
 you need to really work on this. So we worked for two years to really understand the cultural context

00:47:51.260 --> 00:47:55.820
 that we're in, understand really what is, what kind of congregate, what kind of people is God

00:47:55.820 --> 00:48:01.020
 creating for this, this location? And what does it look like for the mission of God, that love God,

00:48:01.020 --> 00:48:07.340
 love others? What is the mission of God that doesn't change? How does that collide with our cultural

00:48:07.340 --> 00:48:13.980
 context? What does it look like for the mission of God to happen here? And so out of that, I took two

00:48:13.980 --> 00:48:20.860
 years. And when we finally like hit on it, honestly, when we finally hit on it, it was like people would

00:48:20.860 --> 00:48:25.340
 jump across the table, say, I'm going to be a part of this. This makes sense. This is it. And so we,

00:48:26.780 --> 00:48:31.980
 I don't usually share this. The vision behind the vision is to engage in, I'm sorry, to equip and

00:48:31.980 --> 00:48:36.540
 engage 10% of our communities for mission with Jesus. Really the idea that if we can reach and

00:48:36.540 --> 00:48:42.060
 engage 10% of the people here in this community, and 10% of the people in the next community, those 10%

00:48:42.060 --> 00:48:47.900
 can reach the other 90%. That's kind of that mission's context. And we have little towns all around

00:48:47.900 --> 00:48:53.260
 here with no gospel witness people. One man said he never heard that anybody loved him until he was

00:48:53.260 --> 00:48:56.460
 50 years old. And that's when he heard about the love of God. And I'm like, yeah, and we're going to

00:48:56.460 --> 00:49:01.820
 try and make sure that doesn't happen again, that no other kid. And so we are looking at this area and

00:49:01.820 --> 00:49:06.460
 saying it might take three churches, might take five churches, might take 10 churches to reach a specific

00:49:06.460 --> 00:49:12.780
 town. But our goal is to reach the 90. And the people that God gives us, that's actually the seed of

00:49:12.780 --> 00:49:17.180
 that. They're not all going to come to Christ. We know that. But we can make sure that they get

00:49:17.180 --> 00:49:21.180
 the chance to hear and experience the gospel. So anyway, so we were kind of really saying,

00:49:21.180 --> 00:49:25.020
 we think that's what it looks like for the gospel, for the mission of God to be lived out here in our

00:49:25.020 --> 00:49:30.860
 context. And in the middle of that, just somebody said, every block, every community, every people,

00:49:30.860 --> 00:49:36.140
 which is really a concrete way of saying, if we have a family, loving the people, and actually,

00:49:36.140 --> 00:49:40.780
 let me tell you the story that that phrase comes from. A man in our community said,

00:49:40.780 --> 00:49:45.340
 how big should your church be? People are kind of skeptical. I mean, I know I'm a young guy,

00:49:45.340 --> 00:49:51.260
 rural churches don't usually have young guys come in and stay. I know that they're skeptical of that.

00:49:51.260 --> 00:49:56.220
 A guy comes up to me and said, how big should your church be? And I said, I think I know what you're

00:49:56.220 --> 00:50:01.340
 getting after. And I hadn't really thought about the answer deeply. So that kind of came from my soul

00:50:01.340 --> 00:50:06.140
 when I said, I think I know what you're getting after. But if we actually believe that Jesus loves

00:50:06.140 --> 00:50:11.740
 every person, living on every block, in every street in our community, then we need to care

00:50:11.740 --> 00:50:17.580
 more about loving, having somebody living on every block, loving the people that Jesus loves.

00:50:17.580 --> 00:50:21.420
 Then we care about how many people can we fit in our building on a given Sunday.

00:50:22.220 --> 00:50:26.220
 So we're actually on mission with Jesus in this community. And so that's where that every block

00:50:26.220 --> 00:50:30.620
 idea came from, where we just said, you know what, our Sunday attendance will be just fine.

00:50:30.620 --> 00:50:36.780
 If we have a family praying for their block, if we have a teenager in every classroom,

00:50:36.780 --> 00:50:40.300
 praying for that classroom and joining Jesus on mission in that classroom,

00:50:40.300 --> 00:50:45.340
 if we have every team of every workplace has a person intentionally saying, Jesus,

00:50:45.340 --> 00:50:50.300
 where are you at work? I want to join you here. If we have that, Sunday attendance will take care

00:50:50.300 --> 00:50:54.460
 of itself. We won't have to worry about that. We need to be more concerned about equipping and

00:50:54.460 --> 00:50:59.580
 engaging people in the mission of Jesus than we do about giving people a place to come to on a

00:50:59.580 --> 00:51:04.140
 given Sunday. And so then we began to say every community, you know what, it's not enough for

00:51:04.140 --> 00:51:11.660
 us to reach this community. Every one of the 450,000 people around us needs a church nearby to reach

00:51:11.660 --> 00:51:16.220
 them in that same way. And so we're going to join with other churches and begin praying and working

00:51:16.220 --> 00:51:21.580
 to see churches like ours that are loving and living out the gospel to reach those communities.

00:51:21.580 --> 00:51:26.220
 And then ultimately we said, our vision can't be smaller than Jesus' vision. And if he says,

00:51:26.220 --> 00:51:32.300
 go into all the world, then we need to go into all the world with every people around the world. So

00:51:32.300 --> 00:51:36.700
 that's where we say every block, every community, every people. And when I share that, the graphic

00:51:36.700 --> 00:51:41.020
 designers in our church jump across the table because they say, I can help use my gifts, make sure that

00:51:41.020 --> 00:51:45.820
 everybody in this community gets the chance to, in a relevant way, hear the gospel. We can make

00:51:45.820 --> 00:51:51.660
 sure that, you know, I bought in my volunteer and my life and my this. And so people begin to begin to

00:51:51.660 --> 00:51:56.460
 concretely go, you know what, there's a lot of things I can't do, but I sure can make a note of

00:51:56.460 --> 00:52:02.460
 everybody in my neighborhood. And I can pray for them by name. And I can reach out to the, you know,

00:52:02.460 --> 00:52:06.460
 family that's hurting. And I know mom and dad are about to go through a divorce. I can reach into their

00:52:06.460 --> 00:52:12.380
 lives with hope and with love and with compassion. And so it really gives a concrete idea to people in

00:52:12.380 --> 00:52:18.780
 our church that, oh, this is what it means for us to live out the gospel here. And then online stuff

00:52:18.780 --> 00:52:24.540
 becomes a tool because we're so clear about what God's called us to do. Our Sunday service becomes a tool

00:52:25.260 --> 00:52:29.020
 to disciple people who go during the week to reach the neighborhood.

00:52:31.100 --> 00:52:36.540
 I love that. And once that vision is realized and once your people buy into it,

00:52:38.140 --> 00:52:44.060
 you will be, I believe God will do something big within your cities and you're not going to be the

00:52:44.060 --> 00:52:50.780
 guy that's sub 200. Um, cause not that it's about numbers and I hate that even brought up the numbers,

00:52:50.780 --> 00:52:58.460
 but God does something, um, when his people understand that they are disciple makers and that

00:52:58.460 --> 00:53:03.660
 when the hero of the story is not the pastor saying, come into the building, but it's when the people who

00:53:03.660 --> 00:53:09.820
 are going out and are understanding that it's their, their role, it's their personal mission, uh, to,

00:53:09.820 --> 00:53:16.460
 to, to, to share, to disciple, to create other disciples in, in the areas where they are like,

00:53:16.460 --> 00:53:23.500
 that's, that's an exciting vision for your little area in, uh, in Wisconsin, man. I love that, that

00:53:23.500 --> 00:53:29.340
 you're, you're starting this off. Yeah. This last Sunday, a guy, uh, I looked out and I was like,

00:53:29.340 --> 00:53:37.020
 I've never seen that guy before. And, um, I met him afterward and he's an intern in a workplace here.

00:53:37.020 --> 00:53:40.380
 And one of the guys in our church, that's been excited about what God is doing

00:53:40.380 --> 00:53:45.820
 had regularly been inviting this young man to come to church with him. And the guy said,

00:53:45.820 --> 00:53:48.300
 I haven't been to church in a really long time. And I was afraid if I come in late,

00:53:48.300 --> 00:53:53.340
 what's going to happen and all. And I was like, that guy trusted me to share the gospel with his

00:53:53.340 --> 00:53:58.380
 friend and trusted our church enough to say, Hey, this, I want you to hear the hope that I have

00:53:58.380 --> 00:54:03.900
 come to church with me. And so I, you know, wrote him a note this week to say, I am so grateful

00:54:03.900 --> 00:54:08.940
 that you trusted me in our church enough to invite him into what God is doing here.

00:54:09.580 --> 00:54:13.740
 Um, and as people begin to say, Hey, you know what? Everything else isn't my concern,

00:54:13.740 --> 00:54:19.100
 but boy, my block, my team at work. And that has, as that begins to pick up some momentum,

00:54:19.100 --> 00:54:25.980
 I see some of that. And I'm just so excited and so grateful, um, to be a part of that.

00:54:26.860 --> 00:54:31.980
 Well, man, I'm looking forward to, to hearing more, uh, from, from you, Joe, I know, uh,

00:54:31.980 --> 00:54:35.740
 one of the things that we're looking, we'll talk about this and, uh, in later podcasts,

00:54:35.740 --> 00:54:40.940
 but we're, we're expanding the church digital. Um, Ray has been an awesome asset and will,

00:54:40.940 --> 00:54:47.500
 will continue to be, uh, but I'm looking forward to, to bringing on, uh, some other, um, writers and,

00:54:47.500 --> 00:54:53.340
 and people. And so we've asked Joe to come on and, and, and help write from a small church

00:54:53.340 --> 00:54:58.380
 perspective. Um, dude called me out and said that I wasn't thinking small church and he was right.

00:54:58.380 --> 00:55:02.700
 And so what better way to, to, to solve that problem and to bring a small church guy to come

00:55:02.700 --> 00:55:08.300
 on and actually be the voice. So, um, man, I'm, I'm looking forward in 2020 is going to be a great

00:55:08.300 --> 00:55:13.500
 year, just as collectively we work through what church online, what, what discipleship online,

00:55:14.140 --> 00:55:19.980
 uh, looks like it can be. So, and Joe, thanks for the podcast and, and doing that. Um, guys,

00:55:19.980 --> 00:55:24.540
 as, as, as we're landing the plane, uh, any, any closing thoughts, um, Tom, you got anything?

00:55:26.060 --> 00:55:33.340
 I've got nothing. No, just kidding. I just sit and learning. Um, no, I, I think that a lot of what

00:55:33.340 --> 00:55:39.420
 Joe is doing is fantastic. And I, I think I, it gets me really encouraged. And again, I, I think all

00:55:39.420 --> 00:55:46.460
 about the, the personal connection. I love how he said early on about, um, you know, just having people

00:55:46.460 --> 00:55:52.780
 share about stuff online. And I like to use the phrase digital missionary, people say different,

00:55:52.780 --> 00:55:58.300
 different things. I, but if we all have the opportunity to be missionaries and whether you're

00:55:58.300 --> 00:56:04.620
 at a big church or a small church, if you mobilize your team and mobilize your, your churchgoers,

00:56:04.620 --> 00:56:09.500
 they can all share about what's happening. And they, and people, the more people in your community,

00:56:09.500 --> 00:56:13.260
 they can see what's happening. Like, oh my gosh, look at my church or look at this church in the

00:56:13.260 --> 00:56:17.500
 community. Look what they're doing and see the different things, the different opportunities

00:56:17.500 --> 00:56:23.740
 that they're providing, I think goes a long way. And then it also goes on to the lead to some

00:56:23.740 --> 00:56:27.900
 conversations. And, you know, again, it's those one-on-one conversations, whether they're online

00:56:27.900 --> 00:56:33.580
 or in person that really go a long way to helping someone discover God. So I, I think what Joe's doing

00:56:33.580 --> 00:56:39.580
 is fantastic. And I, I, I just get so encouraged every time I hear from him about what's going on.

00:56:39.580 --> 00:56:43.900
 And I mean, there's some great stuff and he's really utilizing those digital tools

00:56:44.540 --> 00:56:47.260
 to help more people hear about Jesus. So I love it.

00:56:47.260 --> 00:56:52.540
 Yeah. I'm really encouraged by the fact that you're leveraging volunteers to help create resources

00:56:52.540 --> 00:56:57.900
 for your people and that you're not using size as an excuse to put your stuff out there online.

00:56:57.900 --> 00:57:01.340
 A lot of folks might look and say, well, you know, you guys are still young in the life of your

00:57:01.340 --> 00:57:05.580
 church, but you're leveraging this and saying, no, this is, this is the primary way that people are

00:57:05.580 --> 00:57:09.660
 going to find out about us. And this is going to be a great tool for us. And I think other churches

00:57:09.660 --> 00:57:14.860
 that are listening may want to stop and consider about how they can leverage digital tools at any

00:57:14.860 --> 00:57:19.580
 size. It doesn't mean you have to leverage all the same things that big churches are using, but you

00:57:19.580 --> 00:57:22.860
 might want to stop and take a look at how you can repackage some of the same content that you're

00:57:22.860 --> 00:57:27.260
 spending about 40 hours a week creating in terms of your messages to leverage them so that they last

00:57:27.260 --> 00:57:31.180
 longer and reach more people and go further, farther and faster for cheaper.

00:57:31.180 --> 00:57:35.740
 Awesome. Man, Joe, any thoughts on your end?

00:57:35.740 --> 00:57:40.860
 No, I just, I love the things that you guys do. And it's helped me reach people in this community

00:57:40.860 --> 00:57:45.980
 that haven't been reached that won't be reached otherwise. So I just kind of to return to that

00:57:45.980 --> 00:57:53.020
 story I told the beginning from Seth Godin, if small churches faithful to the gospel took the

00:57:53.020 --> 00:57:58.060
 principles and some of the stuff that you guys are talking about. And each one of them grew by five

00:57:58.060 --> 00:58:05.500
 or 10 people like that has a major effect across the country because there's so many of them. And

00:58:05.500 --> 00:58:12.220
 these tools help people do that, like Ray said, farther and faster. And so I just, I love this,

00:58:12.220 --> 00:58:16.620
 this kind of stuff because it gets the good news that we have to more people.

00:58:16.620 --> 00:58:22.220
 That's a big, that's a big challenge, right? Man, if we could get, um, every small church in America

00:58:22.220 --> 00:58:29.100
 to grow 10%, all the problems that would be solved by that. So, um, man, I'm looking forward to it.

00:58:29.100 --> 00:58:38.700
 I, and even moving forward and a different mindset of not just big, big's great, but wider, smaller as

00:58:38.700 --> 00:58:45.580
 well. Um, church online is, is not a distraction. Big churches, small churches, regardless of the size,

00:58:45.580 --> 00:58:50.540
 as long as there's strategy and vision towards that. And I, and Joe, I think what we see here is,

00:58:50.540 --> 00:58:55.260
 is, is you have developed a great strategy and a purpose, you know, who your audience is,

00:58:55.260 --> 00:58:59.660
 your front door, your side door. Um, you're not interested in, in the digital and in the,

00:58:59.660 --> 00:59:04.380
 in the broader audience, the digital door, the only door people. Um, and, and as a result of that,

00:59:04.380 --> 00:59:10.140
 you've been able to fine tune what you're doing. Now you're still making strides and, and trying to figure

00:59:10.140 --> 00:59:15.100
 out what, how, what a service looks like without worship and, and what a broadcast looks like

00:59:15.100 --> 00:59:20.780
 without worship. And so these are great questions that, you know, you'll be kicking the tires on and

00:59:20.780 --> 00:59:24.780
 experimenting and trying different things until you get that balance. And then once you get the balance,

00:59:24.780 --> 00:59:29.100
 you'll come back and tell us all about how it's the best thing ever. And, and we'll get other churches

00:59:29.100 --> 00:59:34.860
 to start to catch that vision as well and try to do something. So it's all, it's all going to play out

00:59:34.860 --> 00:59:41.260
 in the end. So, Hey, uh, Tom, Ray, Joe, man, thanks for, thanks for jumping on the podcast. Uh,

00:59:41.260 --> 00:59:45.900
 for all of these guys, uh, I'm Jeff with the church digital. Thanks for being with us here this time.

00:59:45.900 --> 00:59:49.100
 We'll see you next time here at the church digital podcast. Y'all have a good day.