WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.180 All right, so episode 47 here at the Church Digital Podcast, we're going to answer a question 00:00:04.180 --> 00:00:10.900 that I feel plagues many churches out there today. Is my church mobile app worthwhile? 00:00:11.900 --> 00:00:15.360 Now, the fact that you're asking that question, I'm probably going to say right now the answer 00:00:15.360 --> 00:00:20.500 is no. And first, before you all freak out, that's not your mobile app's fault. I think 00:00:20.500 --> 00:00:25.100 there's an opportunity for many out there in the church to better realize and understand what the 00:00:25.100 --> 00:00:31.040 purpose of a mobile app is for. If all we're doing is broadcasting weekend experience, weekend 00:00:31.040 --> 00:00:36.180 environment, weekend content through the mobile app, then yeah, there's better ways to do that 00:00:36.180 --> 00:00:42.060 or other ways to do that, cheaper ways to do that maybe. But there's another opportunity to do 00:00:42.060 --> 00:00:47.700 something larger with mobile app than what I think we're realizing right now. To help us in this 00:00:47.700 --> 00:00:54.140 conversation, I'm bringing in John Crabtree. John works with Subsplash, who arguably has more mobile 00:00:54.140 --> 00:00:59.580 apps out there than anybody else in the country right now. And John has been with the company a long time 00:00:59.580 --> 00:01:06.000 and is used to answering questions from people like you and helping people just like you develop their 00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:11.660 ministry through the mobile space. And so we're going to bring John into the conversation, specifically 00:01:11.660 --> 00:01:19.420 addressing and answering this one question. Why does your church, big or small, need a mobile app? 00:01:20.120 --> 00:01:24.760 Hey, everybody. Here you go. We really consider ourselves at Subsplash, an innovation company. 00:01:25.560 --> 00:01:31.980 In 2009, we built out the first ever iPhone app for a church. And so that was kind of the birth of 00:01:31.980 --> 00:01:38.400 the innovation mindset and spent several years just around many different services underneath that and 00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:45.940 have opened up many others beyond. So you think about not only just the app itself, but what services are 00:01:45.940 --> 00:01:52.400 under that, media, notifications, event delivery, Bible reading, those sorts of things. And then beyond 00:01:52.400 --> 00:01:59.540 that, giving as well as an element of just the overall engagement piece. And so being an engagement and 00:01:59.540 --> 00:02:07.820 innovation company, 11 years in mobile. And, you know, really in 2009, the app store was about a year old. 00:02:07.960 --> 00:02:15.260 So we've kind of grown up with them. We were there in its infancy. And we are kind of like the kid down 00:02:15.260 --> 00:02:21.380 the street from the app store, the neighbor that we grew up riding bikes together in a way. So if you 00:02:21.380 --> 00:02:28.540 can think of that analogy, but yeah, that's so like the iPhones came out, what? Oh, seven, six, oh, 00:02:28.540 --> 00:02:33.380 seven. Yeah. And it was all it was all web based for that first year. Like they didn't nobody had app 00:02:33.380 --> 00:02:39.360 stores. Nobody had apps. And then opened that up in 08. Wow. Yeah. Everything was Safari based. 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:46.120 And, you know, with media, here was one of the big the big pieces is that there was no mobile 00:02:46.120 --> 00:02:54.020 responsiveness in the web at that point. So so everything was coming through Safari. And, you know, 00:02:54.120 --> 00:03:00.720 the pastor's head was huge because it didn't actually respond to the phone size. So and so that was one of 00:03:00.720 --> 00:03:05.900 the first problems innovatively that that we solved was actually building according to Apple's and and 00:03:05.900 --> 00:03:10.540 then later Android's specs around how to present media through an app rather than through a web 00:03:10.540 --> 00:03:17.280 browser. What I do for the company is really just I'm an evangelist for obviously for Jesus Christ, 00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:22.540 but but ultimately, how can subsplash help you accomplish your goals of reaching more people 00:03:22.540 --> 00:03:27.720 and making more and better disciples? So. So, yeah, I'm talking a lot on. Yeah. 00:03:27.720 --> 00:03:32.660 So you guys primarily work with churches to figure out how to do this mobile app thing. 00:03:33.300 --> 00:03:37.920 Churches and ministries as well. We have a lot of broadcast ministries that are seeing some 00:03:37.920 --> 00:03:44.800 incredible success through through our system as well. And but we also have some nonprofits, 00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:52.000 some charitable organizations and even some businesses. So, you know, that that's a smaller 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:57.880 subset of who we serve, primarily churches and ministries. So subsplash is a little larger than 00:03:57.880 --> 00:04:01.600 some of the others that are out there. Like how many how many churches are you helping on a regular 00:04:01.600 --> 00:04:10.380 basis? We now have around 12,000 total total clients and probably 97 percent of those are churches and 00:04:10.380 --> 00:04:17.280 ministries. So some sort of services because we we've taken the leap. I mean, we really believe in a 00:04:17.280 --> 00:04:23.320 balanced strategy overall mobile first, of course, because if people aren't on a smartphone app, 00:04:23.320 --> 00:04:29.020 they're on a smartphone web browser. That's pretty much where they're spending about 80 to 90 percent of 00:04:29.020 --> 00:04:35.440 their time total. So we partnered with a guy down in Austin. I think you were once in Austin, Jeff. 00:04:35.660 --> 00:04:41.080 Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And his name is Stephen Testone. And he's really a builder built out a 00:04:41.080 --> 00:04:49.000 website, basically provider. So you can build your website through that back in 2006. So he was kind 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:55.280 of in it when Squarespace and Wix started to around that same time. And and so he had that going for 00:04:55.280 --> 00:05:00.420 about 11, 12 years. And and then we kind of merged with him and brought him on board the company. And 00:05:00.420 --> 00:05:06.880 now he's our I would say our director of product development, I believe is his official title, but 00:05:06.880 --> 00:05:14.200 Stephen Testone. So so we offer that side as well. And so there's a whole lot of a whole lot of clients 00:05:14.200 --> 00:05:20.520 now that are using a variety of different services that we provide. So so you got mobile apps, you got 00:05:20.520 --> 00:05:25.860 you got websites, you know, TV apps, I think I've seen where you guys are doing the Roku and the Apple 00:05:25.860 --> 00:05:32.660 TVs and how has development on this gone? What do you see like adoption rate with churches? Like are they 00:05:32.660 --> 00:05:38.560 are they all about the mobile? Are they transitioning into mobile and web? Are they adopting the TV apps? 00:05:38.680 --> 00:05:46.100 Like, what are you kind of seeing in this? Yeah, this the analogy I like to make here is a lot kind 00:05:46.100 --> 00:05:52.040 of like a we're just getting to the Super Bowl, right? So so a lot of football teams talk about a 00:05:52.040 --> 00:05:57.860 balanced, you know, a balanced team, a good offense and a good defense and all that. We really think of a 00:05:57.860 --> 00:06:04.380 balanced strategy digitally. And so I think this aligns well with what you talk about a lot, Jeff is 00:06:04.380 --> 00:06:11.260 there is a whole lot of opportunity in this day and age to reach people on different types of screens 00:06:11.260 --> 00:06:18.580 and different types of devices. When you look at the actual usage rates across so com score, their 00:06:18.580 --> 00:06:24.660 company that's based on a lot of different places, but their their main hub is in the DC area. And they do 00:06:24.660 --> 00:06:32.340 research across 16 different countries worldwide. And they they look who's on actual television, 00:06:32.340 --> 00:06:39.460 who's on smartphones, who's on their desktops, or laptop, they combine laptop under the desktop umbrella. 00:06:39.460 --> 00:06:47.980 But what they found is pretty remarkable. The UK is some like 86% of total digital time spent on their 00:06:47.980 --> 00:06:54.180 smartphone, and specifically inside apps. The other 14% of that time on their smartphone 00:06:54.180 --> 00:07:01.860 is in the web browser, like a mobile browser. But then you get to like the US, we're pushing 90% 00:07:01.860 --> 00:07:07.700 you get to like Indonesia and Singapore, it's like 96% of the time that they're spending on their phone is in 00:07:07.700 --> 00:07:14.100 apps. And now that's a wide range, you know, you're talking 50 to 100 top apps across the world, 00:07:14.100 --> 00:07:20.660 driven by multi billion and trillion dollar companies. But what's what's really fascinating about that is that 00:07:20.660 --> 00:07:26.340 that the churches that have kind of gone all in with us are seeing some pretty incredible results, like there's a 00:07:26.340 --> 00:07:32.580 church in Nashville, probably about six or 7000 people on a weekend. But they have something like in the 00:07:32.580 --> 00:07:42.340 last 30 days alone, 26,000 sermon and media plays through all of their different screens. So that's a mobile app. 00:07:42.340 --> 00:07:46.100 They have their web embeds on their website that they do through subsplash, they have 00:07:46.740 --> 00:07:53.060 their TV apps, a smaller percentage, only about 2% of their total is through the TV. But I think 00:07:53.060 --> 00:07:59.860 that reflects really, the switch from the television to the mobile device in this day and age, especially in 00:07:59.860 --> 00:08:07.860 the last five years. But they're seeing something like 22,000 app users. And those app users on a 00:08:07.860 --> 00:08:15.140 consistent basis have about 33 different impressions per month on their app. So when it comes to the 00:08:15.140 --> 00:08:22.100 top churches that are really seeing success, they tend to see like around that. And it's because they're 00:08:22.100 --> 00:08:26.260 driving people to where people generally are in this day and age, which is on their phone. 00:08:26.260 --> 00:08:34.340 So a lesser amount on tablets, and that's important as well. And then it's still around 25% of total 00:08:34.340 --> 00:08:39.300 time is on desktop. And so you got to be able to connect all these things together. So all I had to 00:08:39.300 --> 00:08:44.420 say, I think it was a long answer to your question, but a really balanced digital strategy is what we 00:08:44.420 --> 00:08:50.100 push in this in this day and age. And I could see totally we're mobile, and then tying in that web, 00:08:50.100 --> 00:08:54.900 so it's all within the same ecosystem. Like last night, my wife asked me, what's TikTok? 00:08:54.900 --> 00:09:00.180 And being in the mobile space, I said, well, it's kind of hard to explain, but it's literally just a 00:09:00.180 --> 00:09:04.740 timeline of videos. So you had your Instagram starting out as a timeline of photos. And now, 00:09:05.380 --> 00:09:09.780 but we downloaded it together. And it was really interesting, because we downloaded it not in the 00:09:09.780 --> 00:09:14.500 app store, we went to their website. And the very first thing it says is download this on the, 00:09:14.500 --> 00:09:17.940 you know, and you click it, and it goes to the app store and downloads it for you. And so it's very 00:09:17.940 --> 00:09:23.860 interesting, because there's still a funnel going through the web. But then when they want you to 00:09:23.860 --> 00:09:30.340 actually engage, it's in the app. So it's an interesting trend that's happening across kind 00:09:30.340 --> 00:09:31.380 of all of the big boys. 00:09:31.380 --> 00:09:37.860 Yeah, so let's unpack that, because that's a really fun paradigm. So you're a mobile app guy, 00:09:37.860 --> 00:09:43.780 but some stuff lives in web too, right? Like, let's talk this out, because somebody out there 00:09:43.780 --> 00:09:49.060 is listening right now, and they're like, yeah, I don't need a mobile app. I've got a mobile website, 00:09:49.060 --> 00:09:53.620 that's all I need. What's the balance? Like when you're developing mobile strategy, or when you're 00:09:53.620 --> 00:09:58.820 talking to a church, like, what's the stuff they should be doing in mobile app? What's the stuff that 00:09:58.820 --> 00:10:03.780 they should be doing in mobile web? Like, where is that that tension as they're helping to develop 00:10:03.780 --> 00:10:04.340 this strategy? 00:10:04.340 --> 00:10:09.300 Yeah, that's a great point, because there's, there's kind of a wide range of things that 00:10:09.300 --> 00:10:16.180 are happening under that question, aren't there? There's, you've got Google who owns google.com 00:10:16.180 --> 00:10:22.500 and YouTube, which those two forces combined, along with some others, I know I'm very generalizing 00:10:22.500 --> 00:10:28.340 here, but those forces combined really drive where you show up when someone's searching for you 00:10:28.340 --> 00:10:35.460 on the web. And so you have to have a really nice mobile first and mobile friendly, not even mobile 00:10:35.460 --> 00:10:42.020 friendly anymore, mobile first website. You have to have that. And what, what we see in the church world 00:10:42.020 --> 00:10:48.660 really is, it's become more of your signposts in this day and age, and less so your engagement portal. 00:10:48.660 --> 00:10:54.340 Your engagement portal will be on the phone, because statistics are saying, if you're between the ages 00:10:54.340 --> 00:11:01.780 of 13 and 64, and I know 90% of statistics are made up, but if you're between the ages of 13 and 64, 00:11:01.780 --> 00:11:07.460 you're spending no less than 63% of your total four and a half digital hours per day 00:11:08.580 --> 00:11:19.300 inside of a smartphone app. The other probably 20, 20 ish percent to 25 is spent in your basically desktop, 00:11:19.300 --> 00:11:25.700 laptop, browser environment. And then there's a smaller proportion of tablet apps and tablet web and, 00:11:25.700 --> 00:11:34.580 and smartphone web, essentially. The idea being that if you, you've got to make that website to be a really nice signpost for, 00:11:34.580 --> 00:11:40.900 for, and that's mobile first. And so that means mobile responsive. That means you're using all of the tags and 00:11:40.900 --> 00:11:48.740 SEO functionality that a modern website builder gives you. Uh, but, but then when you really want people to 00:11:48.740 --> 00:11:55.860 spend significant time, like study time, let's say Bible reading plan, or maybe lead pastor or the community 00:11:55.860 --> 00:12:01.860 pastor or someone at the church, if you're dealing with a very large church, uh, you know, usually they have 00:12:01.860 --> 00:12:07.780 someone who's like the teaching pastor. And if that person has developed some sort of 21 day or 40 day 00:12:07.780 --> 00:12:15.300 curriculum, you want to drive people to your app for that because you can do audio and video better 00:12:15.300 --> 00:12:21.300 through that. You can generally do, you know, note taking cloud-based note taking better through that. 00:12:21.780 --> 00:12:28.980 Um, and even interaction, like communication back and forth between the church and that individual. 00:12:28.980 --> 00:12:34.900 But, but, but in order to be searched and found, we got to have some really great stuff 00:12:34.900 --> 00:12:42.180 on the website too. Specifically information that, that people are generally going to be looking for, 00:12:42.180 --> 00:12:48.020 which would be in my mind, who's the leadership? What's your statement of belief? Well, you know, 00:12:48.020 --> 00:12:52.900 what's your, what's your theological statement? So to speak, where are you located? That's often the, 00:12:52.900 --> 00:12:58.740 one of the very first things. And, and, uh, obviously you want giving and media and, 00:12:58.820 --> 00:13:05.300 and events showing up on there too. But if you really want people to go deeper throughout the 00:13:05.300 --> 00:13:11.380 week, and you talk a lot about the other 167 hours of the week or 166, whatever it is, right? 00:13:11.380 --> 00:13:17.860 Two hours on Sunday. What about the rest? And, and for me, it's, if you're going to give people 00:13:17.860 --> 00:13:24.900 significant opportunities to engage and go deeper, that's where the app really comes into play 00:13:25.540 --> 00:13:31.300 in our minds. And, and we've seen it, we've seen that engagement and success happen for the clients 00:13:31.300 --> 00:13:36.580 that we have. So I love that. Most churches I work with are lucky if they get one hour on Sunday, 00:13:36.580 --> 00:13:40.740 if you're getting two hours on Sunday, man, you're, you're preachers preaching a long sermon, 00:13:40.740 --> 00:13:45.060 or you really love worship, but no, that, that, that's cool. But that's exactly right. I mean, 00:13:45.060 --> 00:13:50.740 and that's, that's really the crux of this, where I think a lot of the negativity that comes around 00:13:50.740 --> 00:13:55.860 a mobile app or the desire not to have a mobile app is really a lack of understanding the power 00:13:55.860 --> 00:14:01.220 of what a mobile app can be, or a lack of even expectation of what the church is. Most of the 00:14:01.220 --> 00:14:06.580 mobile apps that I see and, and just, and I'm not going to make up stats because 90% of stats on the 00:14:06.580 --> 00:14:12.180 internet are made up, uh, said, uh, Ronald Reagan on the internet last week. And so as a result of that, 00:14:12.180 --> 00:14:18.420 uh, like it's, it, but I, I would say that there's a large percentage of the mobile apps that I see in 00:14:18.420 --> 00:14:24.580 the, in the market that churches are using and are basically just a glorified weekend service where I 00:14:24.580 --> 00:14:34.020 have, um, I have access to a message. Um, I have the ability to take notes maybe for the message. Well, 00:14:34.020 --> 00:14:37.940 I mean, a lot of the stuff with the message, seeing the message, I can see that in a web browser. I 00:14:37.940 --> 00:14:43.140 can see that in a church online platform, uh, audio only of the message. Okay, great. I can get that 00:14:43.140 --> 00:14:48.900 on a podcast. Like there's other things that we're doing where we can pull this stuff instead of through 00:14:48.900 --> 00:14:53.860 the mobile app. And if the, if that's all your expectation is, then, then yeah, you probably don't 00:14:53.860 --> 00:14:59.460 need a mobile app, but there's so much more power behind the mobile app. Like you're talking about 00:14:59.460 --> 00:15:07.220 reading plans or, or, or a lot of these other things that they get into that 167 hours a week. 00:15:07.220 --> 00:15:12.500 That would be other than the one hour on Sunday, which makes for a total of 168, which is great. 00:15:13.060 --> 00:15:17.300 But once we start to explore that space, you know, the mobile app, I agree with you. It's, 00:15:17.300 --> 00:15:22.500 it starts to have a lot more purpose and some of that stuff, you know, at this time and day where 00:15:22.500 --> 00:15:28.020 it's not as easy in a mobile web infrastructure as it is in a mobile app. So like, let me ask you this 00:15:28.020 --> 00:15:33.060 question. Just what, what are some things that you've seen that, that, that subsplash is doing 00:15:33.060 --> 00:15:38.340 that some churches maybe are looking for, even asking about that really dig into this reaching 00:15:38.340 --> 00:15:45.460 people from 167 hours a week, not just the one hour on Sunday. Yeah, that's, that's an awesome 00:15:45.460 --> 00:15:52.660 question, Jeff. And we've been spending a lot of time trying to really dig into where people are 00:15:52.660 --> 00:15:58.420 right now and why, why they're there. And so we've, we saw that on that same com score research, 00:15:58.420 --> 00:16:05.540 it just came out on October 31st last year. And, um, if you go to com score.com, I think it is 00:16:05.540 --> 00:16:10.740 something like that. Uh, I can, I can shoot an email over to you, Jeff, but, but basically that, 00:16:10.740 --> 00:16:15.780 what's really cool about that is that 93% of social interaction is happening, happening through 00:16:15.780 --> 00:16:23.620 a mobile app. And so we spent a really good chunk of 2019 really figuring out when people are 00:16:23.620 --> 00:16:27.780 communicating with their church and with people at the church in their small groups, if they're 00:16:28.740 --> 00:16:34.980 serving on a weekend, right. If they're in that, or they're in a Bible study, how do we get people 00:16:34.980 --> 00:16:39.460 when they go into their app to do something like, oh, I'm going to give today because I was just, 00:16:39.460 --> 00:16:44.340 you know, I'm in here. I saw my paycheck dropped. I'm going to set my, my gift or, 00:16:44.340 --> 00:16:49.380 or set a recurring gift for the first time or something like that. Uh, then they see, you know, 00:16:49.380 --> 00:16:53.380 maybe an announcement that came through because of a notification that pulls them into the app. 00:16:53.380 --> 00:16:58.660 Well, what if now you you're going in there and you're able to see all the different groups 00:16:58.660 --> 00:17:03.460 you're a part of and it, it functionally becomes your, your check-in for the week, you know, 00:17:03.460 --> 00:17:09.220 between Sundays with your small group or your volunteer group. It becomes a source of quick, 00:17:09.220 --> 00:17:13.700 easy communication, uh, through our new group communication feature, we call it subsplash 00:17:13.700 --> 00:17:18.980 messaging and, uh, just continuing to iterate on that to make it something where you can do, 00:17:19.540 --> 00:17:23.940 you know, um, encouragement throughout the week, prayer throughout the week, uh, Bible, 00:17:23.940 --> 00:17:30.180 Bible reading plans and really commenting to one another, uh, in that way. But the key is it's 00:17:30.180 --> 00:17:35.700 living underneath your banner, your own church's banner. Cause the other thing about the digital, 00:17:35.700 --> 00:17:41.620 as you probably know, Jeff, being an expert in the space with the advent of the digital era and, 00:17:42.260 --> 00:17:48.740 and just everything that's going on with that, we see a very high uptick in your, uh, 00:17:48.740 --> 00:17:54.820 the capacity of people's, um, attention to be focused for, you know, a sustained period of time. 00:17:54.820 --> 00:18:01.300 But if they're in the same place that is your, under your banner, um, it's a different thing than 00:18:01.300 --> 00:18:06.980 being in a web browser on your church's website, but they can click a tab over and get to something 00:18:06.980 --> 00:18:11.540 else. Um, you know, within the app, the only thing they're seeing is your, your content, 00:18:11.540 --> 00:18:16.420 your communication opportunities, uh, chances to engage with you. And so I don't know if 00:18:16.420 --> 00:18:21.460 necessarily know if that fully answered the question, but, but, uh, messaging communication 00:18:21.460 --> 00:18:26.980 is a big component that we're working on. And the other thing that I'm, I'm really excited about, 00:18:26.980 --> 00:18:31.540 and, uh, I told you this a couple months ago, but it really came from some conversations you and I had 00:18:31.540 --> 00:18:39.300 maybe two, three years ago, um, uh, about, you know, how do we connect databases that churches are using 00:18:39.300 --> 00:18:46.260 and use that information to really present a more personalized experience to the end user. 00:18:46.260 --> 00:18:49.700 And so we're actually working with Southeast Christian and Google, Kentucky. 00:18:50.740 --> 00:18:56.740 And they are on, um, yeah, they're, they're basically working with us around their particular 00:18:56.740 --> 00:19:04.420 database system and ours to be able to do things like as simple as, Hey, I'm the database administrator. 00:19:04.420 --> 00:19:08.180 I just found out from the group's pastor that this person needs, uh, this particular piece of 00:19:08.180 --> 00:19:13.140 information. I'm going to click, you know, send this notification, type it in, click send, 00:19:13.140 --> 00:19:19.700 and it's going to show up on the, the Southeast, you know, mobile app on that particular person's 00:19:19.700 --> 00:19:24.500 device. Those are the kinds of details that we've really been working on, uh, with them. 00:19:24.500 --> 00:19:28.500 And there's, there's more to come, but super exciting, super exciting thing. 00:19:28.500 --> 00:19:30.740 Um, it's, that's really exciting. 00:19:30.740 --> 00:19:37.860 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So giving is a major component, obviously of, of church mobile apps, and there's 00:19:37.860 --> 00:19:44.100 a lot of traffic towards that. What value does that add, uh, towards subsplash clients? Like what, 00:19:44.100 --> 00:19:48.100 what are some things that you're doing in that space on the giving that can even maybe help engagement? 00:19:49.380 --> 00:19:55.140 Yeah. Yeah. When we were talking earlier, Jeff, it's a good point about, um, what we're working 00:19:55.140 --> 00:20:00.900 on. And a lot of it just comes down to working in parallel to make sure that there's a lot of 00:20:00.900 --> 00:20:06.900 companies out there that might give you a, like a giving app, but, and it's like, go there to make, 00:20:06.900 --> 00:20:13.780 to make the gift, but there's nothing really else engagement wise within it. Um, that would stir the 00:20:13.780 --> 00:20:20.980 heart because ultimately when you're making an ask for, for a tithe and an offering biblically, 00:20:20.980 --> 00:20:26.180 there's a lot that said about that, but, but at the same time as a church and as a church leadership, 00:20:26.180 --> 00:20:31.460 every church has a different way of saying that, well, when you couch that action of making a gift 00:20:31.460 --> 00:20:35.700 within every other piece of engagement that they could be doing with you, communicating with you, 00:20:35.700 --> 00:20:40.500 listening to you, watching you, um, seeing the events that are coming up and registering for them, 00:20:40.500 --> 00:20:47.700 um, reading the Bible, those things start to stir the heart, uh, in a way that, um, really nothing else 00:20:47.700 --> 00:20:53.860 can. Are they engaged on mission with you? And so that's where that giving engagement piece really 00:20:53.860 --> 00:21:00.340 comes in. And so we've been doing a lot of work on, um, you know, just, uh, just prompting people, 00:21:00.340 --> 00:21:07.060 allowing them, you know, educating churches to educate their people that, hey, giving online is a great 00:21:07.060 --> 00:21:13.620 thing, but there is a cost incurred because of how that whole merchant world works. And so, um, 00:21:13.620 --> 00:21:19.300 we've got this solution now that you can cover the fee for it for us so that we get the full extent of 00:21:19.300 --> 00:21:24.180 your gift. And so just things like that, where it just fits in with the rest of what you're doing is 00:21:24.180 --> 00:21:29.780 engagement. And so as a result of that, we really do see just incredible, like two, two and a half, 00:21:29.780 --> 00:21:37.300 three times the average per person giving through subsplash giving for churches because it's couched 00:21:37.300 --> 00:21:41.860 in all of their different engagement places and not just the separate action to be taken. 00:21:42.500 --> 00:21:46.500 Um, that doesn't have anything to do with anything else you're doing at the church. So. 00:21:47.860 --> 00:21:53.300 Very, very cool. There was, I was watching a, um, uh, I'll give, I'll give him credit. Although I 00:21:53.300 --> 00:21:58.580 think I had the idea before him, but he'll take it. Bobby Grunwell from, um, you know, Life Church, 00:21:58.580 --> 00:22:04.020 the innovations guy over there. I was just, I was the other day I was, was stuck and, um, uh, 00:22:04.020 --> 00:22:08.980 I was outside of a government TSA office, which is weird because that's not what you expect to hear on a 00:22:08.980 --> 00:22:14.580 podcast, but I'm waiting. And the sign says, we'll be back in 15 minutes at the door and the door is 00:22:14.580 --> 00:22:19.300 locked and it was 45 minutes. And I'm still waiting for the person to come back from 15 minute break. 00:22:19.300 --> 00:22:23.460 Uh, and so finally they do come back. But while I was waiting, I was watching, uh, Bobby Grunwell was 00:22:23.460 --> 00:22:28.180 doing a live stream and basically just, he was, was talking about just stuff that hits the cutting room 00:22:28.180 --> 00:22:33.700 floor. It's like, man, I would love to have time to do this, but we never really explored it. But now, 00:22:33.700 --> 00:22:37.220 you know, now that XYZ projects are done, we're starting to pick some of this up and, 00:22:37.220 --> 00:22:41.220 you know, the live stream audience is like, what are you thinking about cutting? What have you cut? 00:22:41.220 --> 00:22:44.180 What have you cut? What are you bringing back? Trying to, you know, get them to say something. 00:22:44.180 --> 00:22:48.980 And one of the, what he teased it with was, there's lots of things that we were doing in, 00:22:48.980 --> 00:22:54.820 in the church online realm that would be extremely powerful in the physical realm. We just need to 00:22:54.820 --> 00:22:59.460 figure out how to do it. And, and, and, and he, and he alluded to this one thing and I'm like, 00:22:59.460 --> 00:23:05.460 I have literally said it on this podcast. So I have it recorded on the record that I said it before he said it. 00:23:05.460 --> 00:23:11.460 And it comes into this idea of, I would love to see a church. And even if this fits under mobile 00:23:11.460 --> 00:23:17.060 app, that's cool. I would love to see a church utilize chat in the physical space. Because we 00:23:17.060 --> 00:23:22.100 have this thing where we're like, okay, we need to, we multitasking in a virtual environment, 00:23:22.100 --> 00:23:26.260 you're capable to do more because you're staring at whatever. But I think when you're in that physical 00:23:26.260 --> 00:23:31.860 environment, you're in that second space anyway. And I think there's an opportunity to utilize that text, 00:23:31.860 --> 00:23:38.740 that chat as, as a, a second input in during a, during a message, even specifically to keep people 00:23:38.740 --> 00:23:44.020 engaged, to funnel in secondary information, to compliment what the speaker is saying on stage. 00:23:44.020 --> 00:23:48.900 And so like, I've been suggesting to people figure out how to make WhatsApp work, figure out how to make 00:23:48.900 --> 00:23:55.380 whatever. But like, if there's a chat option underneath, um, you know, subsplash under the mobile apps, 00:23:55.380 --> 00:24:00.660 man, I would love to see churches start to explore with that instead of be like, hey, turn the, turn 00:24:00.660 --> 00:24:05.300 the phone off and put it away. Your Bible apps already on there, figure out how to engage with 00:24:05.300 --> 00:24:10.820 that. You want them doing social media posts in the middle. The trick is really to, to use that, 00:24:10.820 --> 00:24:17.460 that mobile app as the window to keep people engaged, uh, during that service time. Any, any thoughts on 00:24:17.460 --> 00:24:27.220 that? Absolutely. I think that's something that is so underutilized is just how are we bringing that 00:24:27.220 --> 00:24:33.860 technology into the live space as well. And it's something that the engineers, you know, on a, on 00:24:33.860 --> 00:24:41.540 that particular team in our, our, uh, company is really looking at is how can this thing be flexible 00:24:41.540 --> 00:24:46.820 enough that you could use it almost anywhere because people have their phones with them pretty much 00:24:46.820 --> 00:24:52.900 anywhere. And, and, and not only that, but what I love about your podcast and specific Jeff, because 00:24:52.900 --> 00:25:00.180 I've listened to so many is just, we are entering an age where the old paradigm of what church is the 00:25:00.180 --> 00:25:07.140 model is shifting. And a lot of people are talking about the church, you know, churches closing their 00:25:07.140 --> 00:25:12.580 doors, more churches closing their doors than opening them in this day and age. Right. And so, um, 00:25:13.300 --> 00:25:20.500 that's not a good thing on the, the life index of, of the church. Right. When you think about it, 00:25:20.500 --> 00:25:27.620 um, that's a negative birth rates are not good in, uh, for humans, uh, negative birth church rates are 00:25:27.620 --> 00:25:35.220 not good for the areas that they're, they're occurring in. And so if we don't change the model, um, to fit, 00:25:35.220 --> 00:25:40.420 you know, where our culture is while retaining the, the core, the core things gospel, you know, 00:25:40.420 --> 00:25:45.700 that's central, um, retaining the core message, that's, what's most important. Um, beyond that, 00:25:45.700 --> 00:25:51.380 the model is something that, uh, we start, we need to be start being very creative and flexible with. 00:25:51.940 --> 00:25:56.820 And so, um, that's awesome. Jeff, I'll give you credit ahead of time. I don't, 00:25:57.540 --> 00:26:02.740 I didn't, I didn't know that, but you've got the proof. So whether it's you, Bobby or both, it's like, 00:26:03.380 --> 00:26:09.060 I'll, I'll, I'll take him to town toe to toe. Uh, that's okay. He'll probably produce some email from 00:26:09.060 --> 00:26:16.500 like 1994. Before there were even like mobile phone. I don't know. Uh, Ronald Reagan probably 00:26:16.500 --> 00:26:20.980 said that at some point in the sixties. So we'll give Ronald Reagan credit for it all. Yeah. 00:26:21.780 --> 00:26:28.580 That's awesome. Could I add to that too? Cause, um, life church is such a, such an awesome 00:26:28.580 --> 00:26:34.420 forward thinking church. Um, and, uh, not every church can be them, right? Most, most churches across 00:26:35.060 --> 00:26:42.020 the world are a hundred people or less on a weekend where subsplash really is trying to come in is, um, 00:26:42.580 --> 00:26:49.220 we've got an idea of, and it's a bold, hairy, audacious goal, but the, the goal is to equip every 00:26:49.220 --> 00:26:56.100 church in some way in our lifetime with whatever tool of ours that, that will solve a problem for 00:26:56.100 --> 00:27:02.020 them. And the idea behind that too, is, is just making sure that, um, what I love that life church 00:27:02.020 --> 00:27:07.940 does is they make so much of their content and their innovation wide open. And so we, we love 00:27:07.940 --> 00:27:13.860 churches who do that and, and, and, you know, and, and not only that ministries as well. And, 00:27:13.860 --> 00:27:20.100 and that's, I think a lot of the heart behind us. Yes, we're a company, not a church, but we strive to 00:27:20.100 --> 00:27:26.740 kind of be along that same line of how, how can we equip churches of all sizes, um, in this day and 00:27:26.740 --> 00:27:31.860 age for that shift? Yeah. So, well, here, here's, here's the reality. And I've, I've said this publicly 00:27:31.860 --> 00:27:38.820 before is that we need companies to do the innovation of today. I, I truly believe this. I 00:27:38.820 --> 00:27:45.300 don't think as a general rule. Yeah. Life church is the exception. Cool. As a general rule, churches 00:27:45.300 --> 00:27:51.540 cannot be innovative. Um, the, the bleeding edge tax that's involved in doing what we're doing, 00:27:51.540 --> 00:27:58.580 an individual church cannot do that. I can tell you, I've tried multiple times and I have felt the pain 00:27:58.580 --> 00:28:04.100 point of going to that financial director and saying, I need another X number, thousands of dollars 00:28:04.100 --> 00:28:11.140 to keep the model going. And then the evil stare that comes back because like the, the organization 00:28:11.140 --> 00:28:16.180 today that the church is structured as cannot be innovative. They can't feel that bleeding edge. 00:28:16.660 --> 00:28:22.580 Um, the, the, the cost that that's involved in that, the ability for organizations like subsplash to, 00:28:23.060 --> 00:28:27.540 to step in, to provide some of that innovation and then spread that out across multiple churches, 00:28:27.540 --> 00:28:34.740 uh, is, is, is awesome. And we need more organizations to, to step up and, uh, and, and be a part of it. 00:28:34.740 --> 00:28:38.900 One of the other churches that I think are very advanced in the mobile scope is, is this, this idea 00:28:38.900 --> 00:28:44.900 of, um, church home. Yes. And, um, and I, I don't think there was subsplash there. They've got their own, 00:28:44.900 --> 00:28:49.780 you know, in-house development company and they're, they're actually developing that to, to one day 00:28:49.780 --> 00:28:53.940 release it out, I think to others. And they're, they're kind of going in their, in their own 00:28:53.940 --> 00:29:00.500 direction. But one of the things that, that I really am intrigued at here is, is this idea of, 00:29:00.500 --> 00:29:07.700 of a centralized church model happening in the mobile app. You know, a lot of times with, uh, 00:29:07.700 --> 00:29:12.020 with, with church, and we talk a lot about this in the podcast, it's, you know, the mobile app drives 00:29:12.020 --> 00:29:17.940 to a, to a, a physical campus, uh, church online is the front door to the physical campus, or it's 00:29:17.940 --> 00:29:22.420 maybe a side door to somebody that's already engaged at the physical campus. Uh, but they 00:29:22.420 --> 00:29:27.860 really took, um, a church home and, and several others have, have taken a much more aggressive 00:29:27.860 --> 00:29:33.540 stance in, okay, we're going to create a, uh, a digital door, a digital ministry opportunity 00:29:33.540 --> 00:29:40.500 for us to engage with people who are nowhere near our church, or, or maybe even to the point of like, uh, 00:29:40.500 --> 00:29:48.020 uh, Jay Earhart doing, um, discord with love clan or, or some of the others. It's a digital only, uh, 00:29:48.020 --> 00:29:52.740 expression of this, that, that there is no, no physical. When you look at the mobile app, maybe 00:29:52.740 --> 00:29:58.980 just unpack here for a little bit, like what, what doors open up when you have that mobile app, uh, 00:29:58.980 --> 00:30:04.020 connection point with, with people, when you're trying to create not a complimentary thing that feeds 00:30:04.020 --> 00:30:09.460 into a physical, but maybe an, an only thing where it's a digital only expression of worship. 00:30:10.020 --> 00:30:15.060 And any, any thoughts kind of on that? Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned church home and I'm, 00:30:15.060 --> 00:30:19.220 I'm up in the Seattle area and they're in Kirkland right across Lake Washington. So 00:30:20.020 --> 00:30:24.420 no more than nine or 10 miles separate. And we have a lot of friends over there that we've had 00:30:24.420 --> 00:30:30.580 conversations with about, Hey, how's the strategy going? What have you guys learned in this transition? 00:30:30.580 --> 00:30:38.020 Because that was a bold step to take by them. And, and, and for me, uh, always kind of having been just 00:30:38.020 --> 00:30:44.340 had a soft spot for innovation and, and people who think different to use the apple phrase from 00:30:44.340 --> 00:30:48.980 back in the early, what was it? Late nineties, early two thousands, but really just wanting to figure 00:30:48.980 --> 00:30:55.060 out what have you guys learned from there? Because I think thought partnership above all else is, 00:30:55.060 --> 00:31:00.340 is really important in the church today around, uh, how do we, how do we advance the 00:31:00.340 --> 00:31:05.780 kingdom in this new culture in this new era? So, so all that to say is one of the things I think that 00:31:05.780 --> 00:31:10.660 they learned from conversations we have with them is that you, you went that direction and then you 00:31:10.660 --> 00:31:16.260 found out that even then people were gathering together physically, whether it was at homes or at 00:31:16.260 --> 00:31:23.300 a coffee shop or whatever. And so it became this digital turning into the physical. And I think that, 00:31:23.300 --> 00:31:30.100 I think that comes down to, um, there might be some generational differences where even if someone found out about church 00:31:30.100 --> 00:31:35.380 home through the app, they probably, if they're of a certain generational persuasion, they still feel 00:31:35.380 --> 00:31:41.460 more comfortable meeting face to face and together. And I think, I think there's something to that 00:31:41.460 --> 00:31:47.780 because it's the way the church grew up, right? Home churches, physical meetings, very small home 00:31:47.780 --> 00:31:54.500 churches and physical meetings, but nonetheless, but I think like you were talking about, um, Jade and, and, um, 00:31:54.500 --> 00:32:02.260 love clan. You have people there in gamers who are not comfortable with the face to face, but discord is 00:32:02.260 --> 00:32:08.340 where they go for community. Well, we need to, we need to hit them there. So it's just so fascinating 00:32:08.340 --> 00:32:16.100 because I don't know if there's a one size fits all strategy, but I think if we're too afraid to take 00:32:16.100 --> 00:32:23.140 technological innovation risks, we may not come to those learnings that Jade or church home have found 00:32:23.140 --> 00:32:30.900 and be able to get to a place where in the next era, and I'm talking like five, 10, even 20 years down 00:32:30.900 --> 00:32:35.540 the road, we're not going to know what to do at that point. If we don't have people out there on the 00:32:35.540 --> 00:32:41.540 front lines doing exactly what you're talking about. I'm mid millennial. So I'm, I'm 35 born in the mid 00:32:41.540 --> 00:32:49.620 eighties. And, and so I do still remember a time in my elementary school classrooms where there wasn't a 00:32:49.620 --> 00:32:55.380 computer yet. And then, you know, third, fourth, fifth grade, they started showing up. And so I'm still 00:32:55.380 --> 00:33:02.980 bordering that, that, um, generation where technology, I remember a time with the rotary 00:33:02.980 --> 00:33:10.180 phone. We'll just put it like that. Um, but I mean, my, my nephew who's 21, um, you know, he, 00:33:10.980 --> 00:33:18.740 he does not ever remember a time where a cell phone wasn't nearby, you know, within arm's reach. Um, so 00:33:20.660 --> 00:33:25.380 how are we going to reach people if we don't reach them where they are at this moment? So, 00:33:25.380 --> 00:33:31.220 yeah, you know, it's, it's interesting. And this is coming from a guy that used to edit audio with 00:33:31.220 --> 00:33:37.620 a razor blade. I literally learned in college how to, how to do that. So, uh, I'm not, I'm past the 00:33:37.620 --> 00:33:43.140 millennial. Let's, let's just say it that way. I'm 42. Um, I, I was in, I was almost graduated from 00:33:43.140 --> 00:33:48.020 college before I bought my first cell phone, which is funny. Cause my daughter who's like 11 is like, 00:33:48.020 --> 00:33:52.740 daddy, everybody else has a cell phone. They're like, well, dang it kid. I didn't. So you're not, 00:33:52.740 --> 00:33:58.580 uh, I'm that, I'm that dad. She has an iPad, but not a cell phone. So it's a thing. All right. So, 00:33:58.580 --> 00:34:03.460 but here's, here's the thing when it comes to, to Jake, like, and just getting into this, 00:34:03.460 --> 00:34:10.340 people have this, this concept and perception and innovation always has, has people that are pro and 00:34:10.340 --> 00:34:15.140 con it. And, you know, with this podcast that, that we ran recently with Jake, you know, talked about 00:34:15.140 --> 00:34:20.260 this, honestly, like from, from a listener side, I don't talk a lot about stats, but it was the second 00:34:20.260 --> 00:34:26.660 largest podcast that we've launched to date. Um, it was just a lot of people really, you know, 00:34:26.660 --> 00:34:30.500 caught in on this and, you know, and I'm looking at the stats and I'm like, this is awesome. I'm 00:34:30.500 --> 00:34:35.700 celebrating. This is great. I even messaged Jade. I'm like, Hey, congratulations, man. Your podcast 00:34:35.700 --> 00:34:39.620 like took off. It's the second largest that, that we've done to date on this. 00:34:39.620 --> 00:34:45.780 And then he's just, he gives me like an LOL back on Facebook messenger and then start sending me, 00:34:45.780 --> 00:34:50.980 you know, I'm not saying it's hate mail, but it's people who are, who have found him on, 00:34:50.980 --> 00:34:56.300 on Facebook and are sending them like, you're not a church and just like starting, you know, 00:34:56.300 --> 00:35:03.460 to rip this guy. And, and I'm, I'm like, Jade, I'm so sorry, bro. Like, you know, how, how send them 00:35:03.460 --> 00:35:07.540 to me. You don't need to take this. Let me take it. Let me help. Let me, you know, you know, 00:35:07.540 --> 00:35:10.900 I started to like, you know, bow up a little bit, you know, dude, I'm 40. Like, you know, 00:35:10.900 --> 00:35:15.300 you take your shots at me, not some, some kid that's doing this. That, that, that being said, 00:35:15.300 --> 00:35:21.520 there's always this, you know, risk when you do, especially in this. And I think this is one of the 00:35:21.520 --> 00:35:29.160 things really in, in church online and digital technologies where you're messing with people's 00:35:29.160 --> 00:35:35.940 traditions. And I, and I think that's really why the church is so far behind when it comes to 00:35:35.940 --> 00:35:41.720 innovation, because it's somebody's tradition. It's somebody's history. It's somebody's past that 00:35:41.720 --> 00:35:46.960 you're now messing with. And while businesses are like, screw the past, I'm, I'm all about making 00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:51.540 the money for today. Let's be innovative. Let's be the only people out there that are doing this 00:35:51.540 --> 00:35:59.660 thing. You know, the church, the church body really struggles to let go and to focus more on ahead 00:35:59.660 --> 00:36:05.920 because so much of the model of today with the attenders and arguably consumers is, you know, 00:36:06.340 --> 00:36:12.840 don't move my cheese or to paraphrase the Tom Rainer book, don't move my podium. Like you're not, 00:36:12.900 --> 00:36:16.360 you're not allowed to mess with tradition. You're not allowed to move with past. It's almost, 00:36:16.560 --> 00:36:22.200 I was on a podcast once and Tom's like, it's like major league baseball where you can't change the way 00:36:22.200 --> 00:36:27.060 some rule is because Babe Ruth didn't deal with that in like 1914. And it's like, you know, 00:36:27.060 --> 00:36:34.300 it's 2020 now, bro. Like do things different to be more effective. And so a lot of, a lot of what you 00:36:34.300 --> 00:36:39.140 guys are doing and I've done, I've, I've loved our conversations and the subsplash conversations 00:36:39.140 --> 00:36:44.340 because it's, Hey, you know, this would be really cool. If you could do this for the church, 00:36:44.440 --> 00:36:48.800 churches would love this. The church can't afford to do this on their own, but I'm willing to bet if 00:36:48.800 --> 00:36:54.560 you pitch this idea at like 15 churches, somebody else is going to love that, you know, and even seeing 00:36:54.560 --> 00:36:59.920 some of the stuff you're doing now with the church in Louisville. Um, man, that's, that's just awesome. 00:37:00.240 --> 00:37:05.900 That's good stuff. Part, part of what's so exciting about what I do is, um, my dad, actually, 00:37:05.900 --> 00:37:11.560 you mentioned Tom Rainer. He studied under Tom Rainer at Southern Seminary, um, and got his PhD in 00:37:11.560 --> 00:37:17.940 theology when I was kind of, uh, late middle school through basically, uh, end of high school. 00:37:17.940 --> 00:37:22.880 It's when my dad was there. So this is, you can think late nineties, early two thousands and his 00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:30.300 whole, uh, work in his PhD was literally the church growth movement and how from, let's say the forties 00:37:30.300 --> 00:37:36.200 to the nineties, the church grew. Well, the fact of the matter is, is like my, and my dad keeps talking 00:37:36.200 --> 00:37:41.360 about this because he continues to read, you know, books from top thought leaders, but he's like, 00:37:41.420 --> 00:37:45.980 what worked in the forties to the nineties, we're in a totally different era in this day and age. 00:37:46.640 --> 00:37:54.300 And I think the Lord has brought people up, um, you know, who are very steadfastly devoted to him, 00:37:54.300 --> 00:37:59.780 but also he's brought them up with the skills and mindsets of technological innovation, 00:38:00.360 --> 00:38:06.540 innovating models, design thinking. How do we design the church for the 21st century? Ultimately, 00:38:06.540 --> 00:38:13.380 again, there are ways that in scripture, I think, uh, you know, the Lord has instituted what needs 00:38:13.380 --> 00:38:20.560 to happen at church. But the, the question is, can we model it? Can we change the, can we put the 00:38:20.560 --> 00:38:26.500 pieces around, move them around to make the model fit more where we are in this day and age? Cause 00:38:26.500 --> 00:38:32.040 we're not in the forties to the nineties anymore. So often we're, we're holding onto this idea of this 00:38:32.040 --> 00:38:36.460 church growth model, you know, and, and, you know, I, I hadn't heard that it had stopped in 00:38:36.460 --> 00:38:41.140 the nineties. I didn't know that was a thing. Uh, but I know that cause I know people are still 00:38:41.140 --> 00:38:47.700 clinging to it. I mean, even one of the churches that I work with, I went out multiple churches that 00:38:47.700 --> 00:38:54.620 I work with Christmas was rough. Um, and in a lot of churches across America, numbers were down. 00:38:55.120 --> 00:38:59.740 And even the fact that I'm saying numbers are down, it's numbers are down when you're looking at the 00:38:59.740 --> 00:39:07.180 church service attendance, which is a horrible stat to look at because it doesn't evaluate what your 00:39:07.180 --> 00:39:13.940 church is 168 hours a week. It evaluates that one hour on Sunday, which was down in many of the 00:39:13.940 --> 00:39:22.400 churches that, that I know. Um, but that's arguably because engagement and attendance over all is down. 00:39:22.900 --> 00:39:29.400 Um, and so it's moving away from the church growth model and understanding there has to be something 00:39:29.400 --> 00:39:35.240 new and different. Um, one of the churches that I'm working with, and this has nothing to do with 00:39:35.240 --> 00:39:39.660 mobile app, but everything to do with the future of the church. So, uh, but one of the churches that, 00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:45.220 that, that I'm working with, like it's, it's long and hard conversations towards, uh, discipleship, 00:39:45.380 --> 00:39:52.480 disciple, disciple making evangelism, learning how to serve, uh, a community and engage in a 00:39:52.480 --> 00:39:59.080 community and move away from creating environments where, where staff and pastors are responsible for 00:39:59.080 --> 00:40:04.680 creating environments. And instead moving the staff and the pastors to, I'm responsible for 00:40:04.680 --> 00:40:11.480 creating disciple makers and stop doing a checklist where consumers will come in and see a service and 00:40:11.480 --> 00:40:17.620 then go out for another two to three weeks before they come back again for another tentpole, a shot of 00:40:17.620 --> 00:40:22.660 adrenaline, spiritual adrenaline to get them through. And instead, Hey, let's a staff be responsible for 00:40:22.660 --> 00:40:28.000 training people in discipleship. So that they're capable to go out there and train other people and 00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:34.420 witness to others and to create that disciple making movement. That's not driven by the one hour on 00:40:34.420 --> 00:40:40.620 Sunday. Um, I won't drop a bunch of stats because we've been making fun of stats all days, but there's a ton of 00:40:40.620 --> 00:40:50.440 valid stats, not Ronald Reagan from the 60 stats here towards, um, creating disciple making movements and 00:40:50.440 --> 00:40:56.260 how that's how people today are looking for spiritual guidance. That's what they're looking for. 00:40:56.660 --> 00:41:03.200 Organizational evangelism, uh, is going away quickly. The world does not care what we as a church think. 00:41:03.200 --> 00:41:11.580 The world think cares what people think. And it's our job to get our engagers, our listeners, our audience, 00:41:11.580 --> 00:41:17.500 um, our members, the Christians who are underneath us to become that new messenger out there. 00:41:17.700 --> 00:41:27.340 Yeah. Mobile app is so much a tool towards that. I was going to say that with that, um, what's one of 00:41:27.340 --> 00:41:32.240 the questions I often ask executive teams at churches is, do you know how many people are in your 00:41:32.240 --> 00:41:38.420 database? You know, whatever, every church has some database of record tracking, you know, who's been 00:41:38.420 --> 00:41:44.360 there at least in the past at some point and maybe where they're from and do they have a family and, 00:41:44.700 --> 00:41:48.720 you know, is the whole family there and all that. I say, how many people are actually in there? 00:41:49.360 --> 00:41:53.000 And, and then I follow up with how many people actually show up on a Sunday? 00:41:54.180 --> 00:42:01.380 And oftentimes those numbers are wildly different, wildly hot, much more people in the database, 00:42:01.380 --> 00:42:07.000 like five, six, seven, 10 X, as many people in the database as people actually show up on the weekend. 00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:12.660 I mean, part of that is like people move to different places, um, and out of the region, 00:42:12.660 --> 00:42:19.500 or they, maybe they move churches. You never know what, what happens, but the final question I ask is, 00:42:19.560 --> 00:42:26.000 how are you, how are you still communicating with that huge chunk of people that aren't showing up 00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:34.440 every Sunday? And this is the way to do it is, but, but then I always, I always say, um, you know, 00:42:34.480 --> 00:42:40.100 and, and it makes my managers a little bit, uh, uncomfortable here, but I always tell churches, 00:42:40.100 --> 00:42:44.160 don't do a mobile app if you're not going to do it well or right, because you end up shooting 00:42:44.160 --> 00:42:52.680 yourself in the foot, you have pretty much one shot at, at like developing that trust. It's really hard 00:42:52.680 --> 00:42:59.560 if you do it improperly or incorrectly, I should say. Um, if it's not quality, if it doesn't match 00:42:59.560 --> 00:43:05.740 the user experience that they, that they expect of like those top 50 apps that they probably have at 00:43:05.740 --> 00:43:10.120 least five to 10 of them on their phone, because we're, again, we're competing with billion and 00:43:10.120 --> 00:43:14.700 trillion dollar companies that have some of the best engineers in the world. And so the question 00:43:14.700 --> 00:43:21.080 is, does your provider that you're working with on the mobile app, or is the custom company that you, 00:43:21.280 --> 00:43:25.880 that you're working with because you decided to go that route, do they have the infrastructure 00:43:25.880 --> 00:43:31.680 and support needed for, for it, you know, because you, you probably don't have a fully fleshed out 00:43:31.680 --> 00:43:40.700 it team. Like let's say, uh, Microsoft has, or any, any company in the Forbes, uh, 500, uh, fortune 500, 00:43:40.840 --> 00:43:46.120 excuse me. Yeah. But, um, but then more importantly, like what is the user experience and what do they 00:43:46.120 --> 00:43:54.500 feel if you're just porting in like, um, a web video or, or something like that in as your media 00:43:54.500 --> 00:43:59.960 solution, chances are people will just go to that outside media solution instead of your app because 00:43:59.960 --> 00:44:04.680 they can do other things there too. Do you really want your people on WhatsApp or Facebook messenger 00:44:04.680 --> 00:44:09.520 is like their primary communications point with your church? It's, it's a question there. They're 00:44:09.520 --> 00:44:15.540 free platforms. Um, they, they have some good things about them. The question is, is like, do you want 00:44:15.540 --> 00:44:21.400 to send people to your platform or to another, another platform? And do you want them spread out 00:44:21.400 --> 00:44:27.820 amongst five, six, 10 platforms, you know, for here's for doing payments and finance and giving, 00:44:27.820 --> 00:44:32.400 and here's like where you go for media, but actually you go to YouTube or Vimeo for media, 00:44:32.400 --> 00:44:39.100 but you go to, um, you know, SoundCloud or, or Apple podcasts or Spotify. And so you're sending them 00:44:39.100 --> 00:44:44.300 to all these other places. If you can do it well with a really good user experience, you'll see that 00:44:44.300 --> 00:44:49.820 kind of, you know, three, four, five times as many app users. Cause people, even who don't get there 00:44:49.820 --> 00:44:54.700 except every three weeks, they'll still have the app and you'll still be able to get to them and 00:44:54.700 --> 00:45:00.280 they'll still be able to get to you in those two to three weeks that they miss. So, uh, I had a guy 00:45:00.280 --> 00:45:04.700 call me out on Facebook, uh, Joe Radicevich. I'll drop the name because now he writes for the church 00:45:04.700 --> 00:45:09.280 digital. He called me out and I was like, be part of the solution. Come on board. Uh, but he, 00:45:09.280 --> 00:45:13.020 he called me out for this. He's, he said, Jeff, um, I love the stuff that you're creating and you're 00:45:13.020 --> 00:45:20.700 doing. Um, I am, I'm a small town pastor and he, uh, he said at his, the church he's at 55, 66, 00:45:20.940 --> 00:45:26.960 under a hundred, sub 100. Uh, and he says to me, not the numbers matter, but in context of where I'm 00:45:26.960 --> 00:45:33.020 going, 80% of churches in America are under 200. I think you alluded to that stat earlier. And that 00:45:33.020 --> 00:45:39.200 may be a Ronald Reagan stat. I don't know, but I think it's legit. Um, and it's legit. And 00:45:39.200 --> 00:45:45.420 so the, I think the average size church in America is 71, 63, that's under 100 once again. 00:45:45.820 --> 00:45:53.020 And so it's okay. And so here's my question for you. Talk to that sub 200 person church. Um, 00:45:53.220 --> 00:45:58.980 how can they utilize a mobile app? You want to get a mobile app tool in every church in America, 00:45:59.360 --> 00:46:04.660 80% or under 200. Why should they be using subsplash? Why should they be using mobile app? 00:46:04.660 --> 00:46:10.300 Number of reasons. Uh, and I'll talk about the product in general and, and where it really starts 00:46:10.300 --> 00:46:17.560 to match that type of user experience people expect if they go into, you know, um, any of these top 00:46:17.560 --> 00:46:24.560 apps, uh, across all of our services, we have a high view of user experience design. And, um, we have a 00:46:24.560 --> 00:46:30.120 couple of people who've been in it pretty much since 08, 09. And so when you start putting those, 00:46:30.280 --> 00:46:37.100 that kind of expertise in there, um, but, but really it comes down to engagement, like you, 00:46:37.300 --> 00:46:44.040 yes, the app. Um, but what does your website look like? Do you have someone on staff who is 00:46:44.040 --> 00:46:51.300 proficient in, um, marketing in this day and age and getting, getting just information, not out to the 00:46:51.300 --> 00:46:55.640 congregation? Let's not even talk about the, like rest of that small community. Let's just talk about 00:46:55.640 --> 00:47:01.740 your congregants. Um, do you have people who are proficient and skilled in this technological age? 00:47:02.100 --> 00:47:09.420 And I think where subsplash comes in, uh, as opposed to some of those other mobile app companies is that, 00:47:09.420 --> 00:47:15.660 um, when you partner with us, yes, you're getting an app, but we can provide you your website that's 00:47:15.660 --> 00:47:21.300 tied in, like we were talking about earlier, um, to, to where, you know, people who move into your 00:47:21.300 --> 00:47:26.040 community are going to find you because you're going to hop up the search engine score because your 00:47:26.040 --> 00:47:32.120 website gets, um, basically, you know, through, through the, the snap pages by subsplash website 00:47:32.120 --> 00:47:37.400 builder, there's just, it's built according to the latest Google search engine rules. So now your 00:47:37.400 --> 00:47:43.800 search engine score pops up, you, you start moving up that list. Um, the question is as, as a 200 person 00:47:43.800 --> 00:47:49.760 church, do you still need an overall digital strategy? And we actually partner with, with churches not only 00:47:49.760 --> 00:47:56.740 to provide a product, but a service of, uh, kind of a client success. Um, there's actually what we call 00:47:56.740 --> 00:48:03.500 client success manager who will actually walk along and they've got, they've got a unique experience 00:48:03.500 --> 00:48:09.640 because, um, they work in technology or have had a technology or marketing role before, but they've 00:48:09.640 --> 00:48:17.160 also worked at a church or ministry. So, um, we have a mutual friend, uh, you know, from one of the churches 00:48:17.160 --> 00:48:22.800 that you were at, who's now at subsplash and that's his role. He's been a worship pastor in Miami. He's been 00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:29.060 a worship pastor out here in the Seattle area. And he's also worked in technology and marketing. And now he's 00:48:29.060 --> 00:48:35.500 helping churches, um, of all different sizes, you know, 200 person church, uh, even up to, to larger 00:48:35.500 --> 00:48:42.680 churches, uh, to not only give them a product, but really think about how are you guys doing church 00:48:42.680 --> 00:48:49.860 today? And does it match the current era, the current culture? Does it match what people expect? 00:48:50.140 --> 00:48:57.280 So, um, so I'd say even beyond the product, uh, the service that is provided, the consulting is a big 00:48:57.280 --> 00:49:02.480 piece. Um, so make sure whoever you're working with that you've got good consulting on that, that end, 00:49:02.620 --> 00:49:06.400 especially if you're a smaller church, cause you probably don't have as many resources as a larger 00:49:06.400 --> 00:49:13.800 church to really get expertise in that way. Um, on the product side, the, there's gotta be something 00:49:13.800 --> 00:49:20.520 that differentiates your product from, from a competitive, uh, non church product, right? So 00:49:20.520 --> 00:49:27.160 I'll just start with media. Here's, here's an example. Um, the cool thing about YouTube for churches 00:49:27.160 --> 00:49:31.520 is the searchability and the fact that Google owns it. So your search engine score, 00:49:31.680 --> 00:49:37.000 if you do it right on your website, it's going to make you very visible to people who don't know 00:49:37.000 --> 00:49:44.100 about you. The question is, once they know you, do you want them going there? Uh, and, and actually 00:49:44.100 --> 00:49:49.560 being in the YouTube environment, because you start getting, they start getting things that they're not 00:49:49.560 --> 00:49:54.360 just going to YouTube for you. And so they're getting served up things by YouTube that are, 00:49:54.560 --> 00:50:01.080 you know, that, that aren't, that have nothing to do with you as a church. Um, now on the other end, 00:50:01.080 --> 00:50:05.420 if you want them to go deeper with you and they're already invested, what's cool about the subsplash 00:50:05.420 --> 00:50:10.980 media delivery, um, service is that if you're in the app, you can start on the video, but let's say 00:50:10.980 --> 00:50:16.240 you need to hop in the car. You just click switch to audio pulls up right from where you left off, 00:50:16.240 --> 00:50:22.480 pop your headphones in or hit car play and boom, you're off and running and still staying engaged. 00:50:23.100 --> 00:50:26.620 Um, and so those kinds of things that aren't really available anywhere else, 00:50:26.620 --> 00:50:33.860 if your church app doesn't have those, um, it probably won't be as compelling to, to use or utilize. 00:50:34.200 --> 00:50:38.500 With Joe, the guy who called me out with the small church, 50, 60 people, 00:50:38.500 --> 00:50:44.900 like he's the only pastor is the only staff person. And, uh, and so he speaks technology, 00:50:44.900 --> 00:50:50.360 which is why I like him. And I've got, he, I've got him on board with us doing blogging and some 00:50:50.360 --> 00:50:55.660 other things, but through the church digital, just continuing to kind of target that sub 200 church. 00:50:55.960 --> 00:51:02.760 Uh, but he's the only person like on his staff. And so as vendors reaching out to be able to help 00:51:02.760 --> 00:51:06.820 and provide some of that wisdom for, for a small church, you definitely want to find somebody that 00:51:06.820 --> 00:51:11.340 speaks to that. And I can tell you with sub slash, just my own, my own personal experience with them 00:51:11.340 --> 00:51:16.440 over the years, they are phenomenal with this as I was sitting here. And I want to throw a couple 00:51:16.440 --> 00:51:22.020 more things at you. I actually was thinking of a situation that I'm in right now that I'm like, 00:51:22.020 --> 00:51:27.020 Hey, there are other churches that are struggling with this. And I don't know that you provide this, 00:51:27.300 --> 00:51:31.520 but this would be a great idea that would help churches down the road. What we're looking at here, 00:51:31.520 --> 00:51:37.920 uh, with women churches that I'm with is this idea of a discipleship pathway, the whole, like the 00:51:37.920 --> 00:51:43.060 process that it takes to become a member or to, you know, learn about the church, to get connected 00:51:43.060 --> 00:51:48.200 into groups, uh, purpose-driven church. They call it one-on-one, two-o-one, three-o-one, four-o-one, 00:51:48.260 --> 00:51:54.360 like all that mess. Yeah. Um, we're in the process of trying to redo that with our, with, uh, 00:51:54.360 --> 00:52:01.760 church that I attend Christ journey here in Miami. And with that, what we're trying to do is flip the 00:52:01.760 --> 00:52:08.560 classroom so that we're not watching the, or listening to some guy lecture for an hour in the 00:52:08.560 --> 00:52:15.880 thing, but instead we're watching them, you know, on a mobile app or something online. We're taking an 00:52:15.880 --> 00:52:21.380 assessment test, which is fed in, and then we're coming in into the classroom, not to listen to a 00:52:21.380 --> 00:52:28.680 lecture, but more to ask questions, to model, to, to demo kind of what we've learned. And so to make 00:52:28.680 --> 00:52:34.300 it much more interactive instead of just sit and listen, I would think there's probably a way that 00:52:34.300 --> 00:52:39.740 you could piece that together with subsplash, but I would love to see something where that was more 00:52:39.740 --> 00:52:47.220 structured, uh, with the assessments with, um, video consumption, even, even interactivity, asking 00:52:47.220 --> 00:52:51.680 questions through the mobile app. So I'm just sending people to the Christ journey mobile app 00:52:51.680 --> 00:52:56.820 in that they're taking the process instead of this hodgepodge different thing. That's all over the 00:52:56.820 --> 00:53:02.260 place. That to me would be a big win, uh, within the app thing. So just, just a thought. Yeah. 00:53:02.940 --> 00:53:09.520 Stay, stay tuned. There's, there's a lot coming in that direction. So I won't take credit for 00:53:09.520 --> 00:53:14.180 that one then because it sounds like you're working on it. That's cool. Well, here's the great thing 00:53:14.180 --> 00:53:21.940 about the church right now is I really have seen, you know, uh, across the church, just a, just a new 00:53:21.940 --> 00:53:29.320 wave of exciting innovation and people being kind of on similar wavelengths in their thinking. So, 00:53:29.320 --> 00:53:34.460 Hey, John, thanks for jumping on the podcast here and, uh, and glad to have you on, uh, where can 00:53:34.460 --> 00:53:39.440 people find you or to get connected in subsplash? What's a good next step for them? Yeah, that you 00:53:39.440 --> 00:53:46.620 can find me, um, uh, at John at subsplash.com. So you can always email me your thoughts on this. Um, 00:53:47.140 --> 00:53:52.840 you know, this episode, even I'm, I'm happy to chat with you. Uh, and yeah, it's subsplash.com is our, 00:53:52.840 --> 00:54:00.240 our website. And, um, we're also on all the different, um, places as subsplash. So, 00:54:00.240 --> 00:54:07.520 you know, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, you name it. Uh, and, uh, yeah. Awesome. Hey, well, 00:54:07.540 --> 00:54:11.660 John, thanks for joining us for, for John. Uh, this is Jeff with the church digital. Thanks for 00:54:11.660 --> 00:54:14.560 being here and we'll see you next time at the podcast. Have a good day.