WEBVTT 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:09.300 Hey, this is Jeff with The Church Digital. We're going to get started with the episode here in just a minute, but before we get there, we all know Stadia, the organization that's been powering The Church.Digital. 00:00:09.740 --> 00:00:19.540 Well, guess what? Stadia is opening up some learning communities. We've been doing this for a while now. We've got about 70 churches that are actually part of these learning communities. 00:00:19.540 --> 00:00:29.340 They're learning how to thrive, grow, and multiply, not just physically, not just digitally, but digitally, the combining of physical and digital. 00:00:29.340 --> 00:00:36.300 And it's been a beautiful, beautiful thing. We've got content coming in from churches like Crossroads, from Saddleback, like Church Home. 00:00:36.720 --> 00:00:42.680 But guess what? It's not a content thing. Content's nice. Content doesn't change your church. Let's just say it. It doesn't. 00:00:43.020 --> 00:00:46.480 I'm a podcast operator. I understand this. It's not going to change your church. 00:00:46.680 --> 00:00:57.960 The ability to walk with someone and to help you understand some of the guidance, some of the accountability, the community of connecting with other churches, engaging with them, 00:00:58.680 --> 00:01:12.420 conversations with people as you wrestle with some of these things to try to figure out how to make your physical church and your online church authentically you that lines up with your missions, visions, and strategies. 00:01:12.420 --> 00:01:18.920 Or maybe is even tightly intertwined that maybe some of that strategy changes to get more online. 00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:29.380 This is what Stadia is trying to create, an opportunity for you to learn and to dialogue and to change your church to thrive, grow, and multiply. 00:01:29.520 --> 00:01:30.920 It's a beautiful, beautiful thing. 00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:33.500 Hey, the learning community starts in August. 00:01:33.940 --> 00:01:39.620 So right now, go to stadiachurchplanting.org slash digital. 00:01:39.840 --> 00:01:42.460 P-H-Y-G-I-T-A-L. 00:01:43.000 --> 00:01:45.280 Stadiachurchplanting.org slash digital. 00:01:45.620 --> 00:01:50.320 And more information will be there for you to learn about these learning communities. 00:01:50.440 --> 00:01:51.640 This has been great. It's been fun. 00:01:51.800 --> 00:01:54.940 But let's go ahead and get you now to that podcast episode. 00:01:55.140 --> 00:01:56.000 All right, everybody. 00:01:56.180 --> 00:01:59.900 Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast powered by Stadia Church Planning. 00:02:00.060 --> 00:02:01.680 I still, I love saying that part. 00:02:02.040 --> 00:02:07.360 By the way, Stadia, I think like this weekend, is launching their 1,000th church. 00:02:07.720 --> 00:02:08.220 That's right. 00:02:08.280 --> 00:02:13.660 They have literally planted 1,000 churches here domestically as well as around the world. 00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:17.040 And we are seeing that happen in real time. 00:02:17.100 --> 00:02:22.720 So if you're even thinking about planting a church, you want to have a conversation about what a digital church looks like, 00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:24.540 you know, we here at Stadia, we want to know. 00:02:24.540 --> 00:02:27.420 Check out stadiachurchplanting.org. 00:02:27.600 --> 00:02:30.440 And on the digital side, because we're literally writing this stuff as we're going, 00:02:30.860 --> 00:02:31.680 hit me up here. 00:02:31.760 --> 00:02:33.180 My information will be in the show notes. 00:02:33.360 --> 00:02:35.040 And let's get together. 00:02:35.700 --> 00:02:35.920 All right. 00:02:36.000 --> 00:02:38.220 Episode 51 here of the Church Digital Podcast. 00:02:38.360 --> 00:02:42.840 This has been the most fun I've recorded of any podcast to date. 00:02:43.320 --> 00:02:45.240 We were laughing hysterically. 00:02:45.380 --> 00:02:49.700 And it actually took a lot of editing to assemble this whole conversation together. 00:02:50.020 --> 00:02:51.140 It was so much fun. 00:02:51.140 --> 00:02:56.240 And I didn't feel like letting you all listen to like 15 minutes of laugh track going through this podcast. 00:02:56.540 --> 00:02:58.480 Ed Stetzer is on the podcast. 00:02:58.620 --> 00:03:00.140 Now, Ed is a man. 00:03:00.840 --> 00:03:01.700 I would call him a mentor. 00:03:01.820 --> 00:03:02.040 It was funny. 00:03:02.140 --> 00:03:05.480 I actually ripped him at one point on Twitter for him assuming the mentor role. 00:03:05.580 --> 00:03:12.000 But the man's been a mentor in my life and a huge inspiration behind what I'm doing here with the Church Digital. 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:16.460 Now, he doesn't always agree on the technology piece and the church online. 00:03:16.800 --> 00:03:19.780 And so we dig into that even a little bit here in the podcast. 00:03:19.780 --> 00:03:36.480 But when it comes to discipleship, when it comes to multiplication, when it comes to understanding the culture of who we are here in the Western Church and digging into the research that he's done through Lifeway and a number of different other resources and organizations that he's working with and influencing. 00:03:36.980 --> 00:03:47.240 Man, I can't think of a better person to come on the podcast here and to really talk about where the church of today is and how we need to get from where we are to where we need to be. 00:03:47.320 --> 00:03:48.720 How we get unstuck. 00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:50.400 Because, listen, we all look around. 00:03:50.500 --> 00:03:51.360 We all feel the tension. 00:03:51.480 --> 00:03:52.900 We all see the decline. 00:03:53.040 --> 00:03:54.480 We see what's coming. 00:03:55.020 --> 00:03:56.580 We can acknowledge that it's there. 00:03:56.660 --> 00:03:58.140 Nobody's fighting that. 00:03:58.580 --> 00:04:00.340 But how do we get unstuck? 00:04:00.420 --> 00:04:01.420 How do we get the lead out? 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:04.580 This is really the conversation that we had with Ed Stetzer. 00:04:05.140 --> 00:04:22.220 Now, I can dig in here and we can talk about, like, I mean, I could spend an entire episode, an entire podcast episode talking about this man's resume, the churches that he's spoken at, the books that he's written, the articles, the blogs, the conferences that he's been able to speak into, 00:04:22.220 --> 00:04:28.260 and the influence he's had all across of America, the American church, and even the international church today. 00:04:28.900 --> 00:04:31.500 Instead, man, I really just want to get out of the way at this point. 00:04:31.960 --> 00:04:39.820 And I'm bringing in Ed Stetzer from the Billy Graham Center of Evangelism, from Moody Church, and a number of other sources. 00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:47.860 I'm also bringing in Ray Diarmus, online pastor, digital pastor, excuse me, at Christ Fellowship Miami, and myself, Jeff, with the Church of Digital, 00:04:48.100 --> 00:04:52.620 in a conversation that I am calling, Defining a Successful Church. 00:04:53.280 --> 00:04:54.340 Okay, everybody, here you go. 00:04:54.640 --> 00:04:59.800 I think the first message I ever produced for you when you were teaching over at Christ Fellowship was, like, 2011. 00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:04.300 Yeah, dude, I was there for, like, six years as teaching pastor, yeah. 00:05:04.580 --> 00:05:06.640 Yeah, and so it was a lot of fun. 00:05:06.840 --> 00:05:09.500 And I remember you dropped a line. 00:05:09.500 --> 00:05:17.260 And this is a thing that I really want to kind of, like, park on a little bit here, because the heart of church today, I think, I think is missing some things. 00:05:17.520 --> 00:05:25.460 And I want to, whether we get to the online context and church online and the digital context of this, but really, like, the core of it is this deal. 00:05:25.520 --> 00:05:29.300 And you said this line in a sermon, and it stuck with me for years. 00:05:29.460 --> 00:05:35.420 When you build churches like theaters, don't be surprised when people act like showgoers. 00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:45.780 And when you said it in a sermon on stage in front of 1,000-plus people at Christ Fellowship Miami, their Palmetto Bay campus, it literally, like, hit me like a ton of bricks over the head. 00:05:45.940 --> 00:05:47.000 I was just curious. 00:05:47.100 --> 00:05:48.280 Like, what's the context? 00:05:48.400 --> 00:05:50.700 Where were you to kind of come up with that? 00:05:50.700 --> 00:05:51.240 It was funny. 00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:53.380 Like, I tried to Google that quote. 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:55.280 I don't see it a lot. 00:05:55.720 --> 00:05:59.800 Like, and Google hasn't found it, so, like, not a lot of people are blogging or talking about it. 00:06:00.060 --> 00:06:01.500 But it's such a powerful quote. 00:06:01.800 --> 00:06:06.180 I'm just curious, kind of, like, what's the story behind how you came up with that? 00:06:06.740 --> 00:06:15.340 Well, you know, when you kind of look at and begin to ask questions about what's causing a consumer-driven mentality in churches, which a lot of people bemoan and lament. 00:06:15.340 --> 00:06:20.560 You know, I got 50 books on a shelf right over there about, you know, how bad it is because we're a consumer-driven church. 00:06:21.660 --> 00:06:31.020 But then you don't acknowledge that there are some things that have an unintended impact and that might create that consumer-driven church. 00:06:31.080 --> 00:06:35.260 And one of them is, again, when you build churches like theaters, don't be surprised when people act like showgoers. 00:06:35.780 --> 00:06:40.640 Because we're actually trained to be – I mean, I go to a show, go to downtown Chicago. 00:06:40.780 --> 00:06:43.920 We're trained to be passive spectators. 00:06:44.240 --> 00:06:44.780 That's our job. 00:06:44.780 --> 00:06:46.740 That's why these wonderful people on stage are doing great things. 00:06:47.440 --> 00:06:48.360 And then we walk into a church. 00:06:48.440 --> 00:06:48.980 It's like a theater. 00:06:49.340 --> 00:06:51.000 We kind of revert to that's our job. 00:06:51.060 --> 00:06:52.680 Look at all these people in the front doing great things. 00:06:53.080 --> 00:07:00.740 And so we get to be the beneficiary of their gifts, the teaching gifts and the worship leader's gifts, maybe a video or something. 00:07:01.140 --> 00:07:03.220 But we're not using our gifts. 00:07:03.300 --> 00:07:07.660 We're passive spectators rather than active participants in the mission of God. 00:07:07.940 --> 00:07:10.120 Now, that's not the only thing in that message. 00:07:10.740 --> 00:07:13.260 And, by the way, blessed that you remember a message from that long ago. 00:07:14.220 --> 00:07:17.440 But also, too, it talked about a little bit like the clergy-laity distinction, right? 00:07:17.520 --> 00:07:18.880 So I'm clergy. 00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:20.720 I'm ordained as clergy. 00:07:20.720 --> 00:07:23.780 That elevates me to in people's minds. 00:07:23.980 --> 00:07:25.000 You know, then they're lay people. 00:07:25.120 --> 00:07:25.620 What do they do? 00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:27.400 They just lay around all the time. 00:07:27.620 --> 00:07:38.660 And so the language, you know, reverend or doctor or pastor, the language teaches people that their role is sometimes more to pay, pray, and stay out of the way. 00:07:39.220 --> 00:07:45.400 And the real ministry is done by the ordained clergy in the front of a stage. 00:07:46.280 --> 00:07:53.020 And they see themselves, regular Christians see themselves as sort of objects of the ministry. 00:07:53.020 --> 00:07:58.120 They're ministered to rather than partners in the ministry that we minister together. 00:07:58.240 --> 00:07:59.240 I think it's a real huge thing. 00:07:59.580 --> 00:08:07.200 I spoke at Wheaton Chapel just recently about this topic is that there is a sense that we have created in many, many places, 00:08:07.200 --> 00:08:09.460 a consumer-driven, customer-service-friendly church. 00:08:09.560 --> 00:08:10.340 We do things well. 00:08:10.660 --> 00:08:14.460 If you like the music, you like the preaching, you like our children's ministry, you like our student ministry, you'll stay. 00:08:15.560 --> 00:08:20.280 And then what you end up with is a whole lot of people not on mission but who are kind of just, you know, 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:27.480 going to float down a lazy river with other Christians in a right temperature for them and their customer service needs are being met. 00:08:27.680 --> 00:08:30.340 And that's my concern and where that quote came from. 00:08:30.340 --> 00:08:36.340 One of the ways that we unintentionally teach people to be passive spectators is the way we build our churches. 00:08:36.420 --> 00:08:40.240 Now, to be fair, you know, come up to me and you say, well, Ed, you know, you're talking about Christ Fellowship. 00:08:40.300 --> 00:08:42.180 You know, that's a thousand seat plus auditorium. 00:08:42.680 --> 00:08:46.460 But, you know, if you have 50 people, are you going to put them all in circles? 00:08:46.840 --> 00:08:50.280 Are you going to, are you, how are you going to not create rows, right? 00:08:50.340 --> 00:08:51.220 That would theater like rows. 00:08:51.840 --> 00:08:53.520 And I don't really have the answer. 00:08:53.640 --> 00:08:55.760 I just wanted to complain about the current situation. 00:08:55.760 --> 00:08:57.280 So I'm like a good church member. 00:08:57.480 --> 00:08:59.000 I just bring you my problem. 00:08:59.600 --> 00:09:01.700 But what I would say is, I don't know that you can change it. 00:09:01.700 --> 00:09:03.460 I don't know there's another way for a large church to meet. 00:09:03.580 --> 00:09:10.460 I mean, I guess you could just eliminate a large church, but I don't know there's a place that they could meet that would cause them not to be passive spectators. 00:09:10.500 --> 00:09:14.940 But it doesn't mean that you can't be aware of it and work to overcome it. 00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:16.520 And, you know, we talk about helping people. 00:09:16.640 --> 00:09:18.980 Listen, we need you to move from those rows to sitting in circles. 00:09:19.100 --> 00:09:23.300 You know, we have to help people to move out of that passive spectator Christianity. 00:09:23.300 --> 00:09:26.400 But the passivity leads us to this place of consumerism, right? 00:09:26.500 --> 00:09:35.560 Where we're now, we're just tentpolling our spirituality to that one hour on Sunday, where we're getting our fix week to week. 00:09:36.320 --> 00:09:47.260 Lifeway, I mean, I'm not sure if you were involved with Lifeway at the time, but even Lifeway is showing that more and more people are not engaging or talking about spiritual things, even outside of the church. 00:09:47.260 --> 00:09:50.260 It's all centered around, okay, I'm a Christian for this one hour. 00:09:50.380 --> 00:09:54.340 I'm consuming, exuding this a little bit with Christian friends. 00:09:54.340 --> 00:09:59.600 But outside, when it comes to Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, it's not part of their lives. 00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:10.380 I think that's pretty common where what happens is there's a Sunday practice doesn't become a daily process. 00:10:11.340 --> 00:10:14.140 And this is, you know, Paul writes in, where is that? 00:10:14.260 --> 00:10:18.400 Philippians 2, that you obey not only my presence, but also my absence. 00:10:18.560 --> 00:10:21.820 So when Paul was there, they were walking like Jesus, and he commends them. 00:10:21.880 --> 00:10:23.360 When I'm not there, you're walking like Jesus. 00:10:23.420 --> 00:10:28.240 And that's not true for a lot of people, but they've got to see that daily process of spiritual formation. 00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:35.540 Eugene Peterson called it a, you know, this long process, you know, and long obedience in the same direction. 00:10:35.740 --> 00:10:40.320 And I think when we walk that way, and we're blessed to walk that way, God honors it. 00:10:40.380 --> 00:10:40.900 We grow. 00:10:42.040 --> 00:10:45.740 But I think, again, what happens is that people are generally born again. 00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:47.340 That's key to preface to all this. 00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:53.600 Sometimes just get stuck in their own moment where they're not on mission. 00:10:53.700 --> 00:10:54.580 And that's part of what we're talking about here. 00:10:54.620 --> 00:10:55.460 How do we get on mission? 00:10:55.540 --> 00:10:58.740 How do we help people to hear the words of Jesus as the Father has sent me? 00:10:59.100 --> 00:11:01.660 Even so, send I you to respond like Isaiah did. 00:11:01.960 --> 00:11:03.760 Here I am, Lord, send me. 00:11:04.280 --> 00:11:07.680 So there's a lot of passages that point to this. 00:11:07.860 --> 00:11:10.900 The challenges, the modern practices don't always look like the ancient passages. 00:11:11.220 --> 00:11:14.720 Acts talks a lot about being day to day with the believers. 00:11:15.500 --> 00:11:17.600 And so they were gathering to the daily. 00:11:17.760 --> 00:11:25.540 They were encouraging, is that possible in context of today's Western culture church? 00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:28.940 I mean, we're barely not even getting weekly at this point. 00:11:29.020 --> 00:11:37.720 When you look at, I had a church tell me the other week that even among their givers, their high-level givers, they're attending 0.8 times a month. 00:11:37.940 --> 00:11:43.140 So even people who are giving regularly to this particular church, they can't even get once a month for them. 00:11:43.800 --> 00:11:45.640 Like, how did we get here? 00:11:45.880 --> 00:11:49.220 And is there a possibility and an option to turn the corner? 00:11:49.440 --> 00:11:50.960 Well, I mean, culture changed. 00:11:51.220 --> 00:11:56.720 So, and we're experiencing something that really nobody in history, except the very rich, have experienced in the past. 00:11:56.800 --> 00:12:10.900 So, the very rich, that English, the Englishman, you know, my experience in a Downton Abbey moment where they, you know, the rich, the nobility sort of go off to their cottage up the mountain or something. 00:12:11.320 --> 00:12:13.660 And people would go away for the weekend. 00:12:13.860 --> 00:12:15.040 And that's a stunning thing. 00:12:15.160 --> 00:12:16.140 Rich people did that. 00:12:16.780 --> 00:12:20.860 So, you know, Jeff, when you were a kid, back those many decades ago. 00:12:21.480 --> 00:12:21.940 Many, many. 00:12:22.140 --> 00:12:22.580 Many, many. 00:12:22.780 --> 00:12:25.140 People didn't go away for the weekend. 00:12:25.140 --> 00:12:31.580 And your, you and your parents, in all likelihood, did not go because the whole infrastructure wasn't there to support it. 00:12:32.180 --> 00:12:41.840 There wasn't a, you know, every, at every highway stop, there wasn't a courtyard or a, you know, a Holiday Inn or whatever, Hampton. 00:12:41.940 --> 00:12:43.980 I mean, so think about how, or Hilton, think of all these names. 00:12:44.640 --> 00:12:51.180 So, 50 years ago, none of those things, none of those things were available. 00:12:51.320 --> 00:12:53.100 Therefore, the people didn't have the process to do it. 00:12:53.100 --> 00:12:57.920 Now, they have the process to do so and they're taking advantage of it. 00:12:57.920 --> 00:13:01.540 So, people go away for the weekend pretty regularly. 00:13:01.640 --> 00:13:02.880 It's kind of a normal thing. 00:13:03.140 --> 00:13:03.240 Yeah. 00:13:03.340 --> 00:13:05.660 So, how then do we respond to that? 00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:12.520 Well, I think one of the ways responding is, for example, we're actually, and it's a strange thing, but we're actually now taking like a children's ministry. 00:13:12.660 --> 00:13:15.320 And we say, before we'd say, hey, would you teach children's ministry? 00:13:15.320 --> 00:13:18.760 Now we're like, hey, would you and your friend rotate in the children's ministry? 00:13:18.760 --> 00:13:20.940 So, there's two people to do one person's role. 00:13:21.480 --> 00:13:26.720 So, I think we do want to sort of work towards where there's a sense that people value this. 00:13:26.820 --> 00:13:33.120 I wish that more people not only valued it so much that they went to church when they were in town, 00:13:33.260 --> 00:13:40.620 but they actually planned their time out of town around the valuable connection that the local church is there as well. 00:13:40.620 --> 00:13:43.880 So, I mean, I think there's just, we have to call people to a different way of living. 00:13:44.160 --> 00:13:55.020 And this is very countercultural because right now we live in a time when everybody does what is autonomously helpful to, you know, individually kind of driven by what they want to do. 00:13:55.280 --> 00:13:56.880 And I think the call of God is something more. 00:13:57.160 --> 00:13:57.300 Yeah. 00:13:57.420 --> 00:13:59.620 Ed, are these idols to be preached against? 00:13:59.800 --> 00:14:10.800 Like, is this something that we need to be directly addressing from the pulpit and just kind of engaging with people and saying, hey, listen, I face the same challenges, like as a minister of the gospel, like, but this is what scripture says. 00:14:10.840 --> 00:14:14.220 This is where there is value in the coming together and community. 00:14:14.680 --> 00:14:17.600 You know, I'm struggling with the answer. 00:14:17.880 --> 00:14:18.560 I mean, it's a great question. 00:14:19.020 --> 00:14:33.960 I would say that people getting away for the weekend is not necessarily idolatrous, but I would say that if you're driven by leisure to the place where you're not obeying the scripture, that that's problematic. 00:14:34.480 --> 00:14:38.060 And the call of God is something different and better than that. 00:14:38.400 --> 00:14:41.060 So, yeah, I think there are idolatrous parts to it. 00:14:41.060 --> 00:14:47.360 I would just be careful, you know, to not call out the fact that you're going to see your parents for the weekend is idolatrous. 00:14:48.040 --> 00:14:59.980 But I can certainly say that this leisure society that distances you from the people of God that you should be in relationship with, yes, I think there's idols that need to be preached about, called down, and addressed in my own heart, too. 00:15:00.700 --> 00:15:10.300 Yeah, because there's something to comparison culture that we're living in the midst of where not only are we seeing this on a regular basis from some of our friends, but then we're inundated with it on a regular basis when I look at my phone. 00:15:10.300 --> 00:15:20.020 So now I've got a social feed of nothing but people who seem to live on vacation convincing me that I, too, need to live on vacation, that I am not truly living life unless I am living on vacation. 00:15:20.580 --> 00:15:24.460 And then, of course, then there's advertisements and everything else that come along with it to convince me of the same thing. 00:15:24.620 --> 00:15:30.700 Yeah, and there is a multibillion-dollar industry that's working to get you to engage in these things. 00:15:30.740 --> 00:15:32.920 It only works if we're going to these places. 00:15:33.100 --> 00:15:37.140 And so when we don't, then ultimately there's a failure of the socioeconomic model. 00:15:37.780 --> 00:15:50.460 So, yeah, so I would say one of the ways the church should be countercultural today is by specifically and intentionally helping and encouraging people towards greater biblical community where they're in each other's lives. 00:15:51.020 --> 00:16:00.480 And in doing so, life on life, you know, iron sharpens iron, that, again, it's cliche almost, they're living life together, and there's priorities that are there. 00:16:00.580 --> 00:16:08.980 I noticed that one time I was, there was this church in, we were in, we were in a different place where we live now, and there was this church, I guess we won't say a name, doesn't matter. 00:16:09.580 --> 00:16:21.940 But there was a couple in the church that had, were thinking about moving, and I just had a conversation with them that said, well, but we've made an 18-month commitment to our small group to journey in life together, so we're not going to move until an 18-month commitment is done. 00:16:22.660 --> 00:16:24.420 And I was like, that's not generally what I hear. 00:16:24.420 --> 00:16:29.260 I mean, people are like, whatever, I'm going to take a new job, but they made a commitment of covenant, and they wanted to stick to it. 00:16:30.040 --> 00:16:39.860 So I think that that kind of approach can be helpful, and I think we need more of it, and less of that consumer-driven Christianity. 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:47.880 It's funny, because even as you say that, both Jeff and I are kind of in awe as we hear that, because that's rare even within the church. 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:51.340 That's not just countercultural to our environments outside of the church. 00:16:51.340 --> 00:17:00.020 If I were to go up at the pulpit and deliver that message, a lot of people would feel convicted and say, wow, I've never known such a strong commitment to, 00:17:00.040 --> 00:17:02.720 or something like that, that's not my wife, or that's not my children. 00:17:03.940 --> 00:17:04.740 Yeah, no, I agree. 00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:10.260 And I think that's not dissimilar to maybe what that first-century church looked like. 00:17:10.300 --> 00:17:11.260 They loved each other this much. 00:17:11.380 --> 00:17:16.740 You know, I'm also doing research now on the Jesus People Movement, and man, people were very much like that in the Jesus People Movement. 00:17:16.740 --> 00:17:26.500 And it seems that God uses that kind of time when people are in deep, deep relationship to really be at work in special and unique ways, and I love that. 00:17:27.320 --> 00:17:33.300 How do you engage in that kind of vulnerability and even commitment when churches even? 00:17:33.460 --> 00:17:39.280 We try to encourage small groups to break up and to start new groups and this kind of thing for the sake of getting more and more people connected. 00:17:40.100 --> 00:17:48.460 Yeah, and that's a tricky thing, because we're sort of, most of us have open small groups where we want to multiply them. 00:17:48.940 --> 00:17:51.640 And so, you know, what this church does is they do these 18-month commitments. 00:17:51.720 --> 00:17:54.140 People come in and kind of go out. 00:17:54.440 --> 00:18:02.320 And so I would say you're going to have to say to people to make that commitment that we want to be in some sort of biblical community, 00:18:02.940 --> 00:18:07.640 maybe with people, the same people, but new people may be coming in and being part of that journey. 00:18:07.840 --> 00:18:14.540 But the more you build towards that, the more that you, particularly that multiplying idea of small groups, which I love, 00:18:15.120 --> 00:18:19.540 the more you build towards that, the sometimes you're working against the strength of that biblical community. 00:18:20.060 --> 00:18:22.760 So that sometimes leads people to maybe a third place. 00:18:22.860 --> 00:18:27.880 You know, I've got church, worship Sunday, weekend worship, and then I've got, you know, multiplying small groups. 00:18:28.100 --> 00:18:30.380 And then we have kind of some sorts of community. 00:18:31.180 --> 00:18:34.560 I think you can do it in multiplying small groups because, you know, most groups that multiply, 00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:42.520 there's still a core of three or four families that may multiply, you know, singles, families, you know, blended families, older couples, whatever. 00:18:42.920 --> 00:18:48.960 So they become the group that's in deep community, and then they multiply ultimately from there. 00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:56.140 At the heart of multiplication, somebody's catching a vision that's larger maybe than what they realize. 00:18:56.320 --> 00:18:59.500 On top of that, it's maybe even larger than what the church is. 00:18:59.900 --> 00:19:03.780 I just was having a conversation before we got on this podcast. 00:19:03.780 --> 00:19:12.380 I was talking to an online pastor where their church has developed a number of micro locations, smaller locations around. 00:19:12.500 --> 00:19:16.240 But essentially, where they've started to reach into is juvenile detention centers. 00:19:16.500 --> 00:19:16.600 Right. 00:19:16.600 --> 00:19:24.020 And so they are, because of the passion of a couple individuals with their church to reach out into juvenile detention centers, 00:19:24.280 --> 00:19:32.660 this church now has five of these micro locations where they are seeing, I think he said, two to three hundred juveniles, 00:19:33.080 --> 00:19:39.700 you know, teenagers, 10 to 18, getting baptized over a couple years as a result of the church's ministry in this area. 00:19:39.860 --> 00:19:43.680 The church didn't go in saying, hey, I want to create juvenile detention centers. 00:19:43.840 --> 00:19:49.420 It was, there are a couple people who are passionate about it and work through the church to allow it to happen. 00:19:50.180 --> 00:19:52.460 What's the role of the church to create? 00:19:52.540 --> 00:19:53.860 And we talk about multiplication. 00:19:53.860 --> 00:19:56.100 We talk about non-consumers. 00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:57.660 We talk about being on mission. 00:19:57.660 --> 00:19:59.680 Like, these are all phrases that we've said. 00:20:00.060 --> 00:20:03.280 What's the church's role in empowering that to happen? 00:20:03.660 --> 00:20:12.020 How do we get people to understand personal mission and how the church can support it, influence it, and benefit from it? 00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:13.000 Yeah, great question. 00:20:13.060 --> 00:20:18.240 Because I think that, you know, when we talk about people finding their mission, the verse that comes to mind is that Ephesians passage. 00:20:19.080 --> 00:20:23.500 You know, that God has given apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teachers to equip God's people. 00:20:23.840 --> 00:20:28.540 So, the role, most people listening or watching are in the category of pastor, teacher. 00:20:29.100 --> 00:20:35.240 The role of that church leader and staff, I think, is primarily driven by the Ephesians passage. 00:20:35.360 --> 00:20:38.420 As a matter of fact, if you were on my team, Jeff, I guess we've served together. 00:20:38.500 --> 00:20:39.340 You weren't necessarily on my team. 00:20:39.800 --> 00:20:43.420 I would actually not evaluate you annually. 00:20:43.980 --> 00:20:45.500 Well, in your case, I would evaluate you daily. 00:20:45.800 --> 00:20:47.900 But I would not evaluate you annually. 00:20:48.520 --> 00:20:54.920 I mean, when I evaluated you annually, it would be on who have you equipped to, you know, we work together at Christ Fellowship. 00:20:55.020 --> 00:20:59.040 You know, who have you raised up that's now part of the media ministry or something else? 00:20:59.320 --> 00:21:02.460 So, with a few exceptions, and your job can be very technical, so that could be an exception. 00:21:03.080 --> 00:21:14.520 But for almost all staff roles in a church, their primary evaluation would be built around how have you raised up others for roles and tasks in the life of the local church. 00:21:15.420 --> 00:21:19.560 And if the answer is, I haven't, unless there's, you know, like, there might be some specific things. 00:21:19.600 --> 00:21:24.080 You might be our trauma counselor, and that's not something we're going to pass on to just everybody. 00:21:24.760 --> 00:21:27.180 So, then, your question is how? 00:21:27.640 --> 00:21:30.380 And I think, ultimately, it's not really rocket science. 00:21:30.560 --> 00:21:31.400 There are processes. 00:21:31.660 --> 00:21:35.080 I mean, we can, you know, Rick Warren's baseball diamond, right? 00:21:35.080 --> 00:21:40.320 So, how do we get to people where they, you know, 401 was discovering my mission? 00:21:41.140 --> 00:21:56.580 And so, I think that involves helping them know their gifting, their wiring, their maybe past life experiences, all that point to what can and should we do with the gifts God has given us, as each one has received a special gift, 1 Peter 4.10. 00:21:56.980 --> 00:22:01.660 Then, last part of your question is, I mean, that doesn't always benefit the church local. 00:22:01.660 --> 00:22:04.300 It benefits the church global or church universal. 00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:10.760 So, I often say that your gifts can lead you to minister in your church, through your church, or beyond your church. 00:22:10.820 --> 00:22:16.820 So, in your church is, you're teaching small groups, you're working with the children, you're working in the media ministry, whatever else it may be. 00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:17.300 That's in. 00:22:17.860 --> 00:22:29.440 Through your church is, you know, your church has a partnership with this, you know, orphanage ministry, or it's maybe partnered with the good folks that you and I do work with, with Wellspring, you know, maybe their counseling alliance. 00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:32.040 And so, you're partnering through your church. 00:22:32.180 --> 00:22:33.480 It's a church-related thing. 00:22:33.540 --> 00:22:34.840 And sometimes, it's just beyond your church. 00:22:34.920 --> 00:22:45.500 Where, not in a sense that you've moved beyond, you're better than your church, but your church isn't involved in this, but you have a passion for orphan care, through and around this particular theme, in this particular place. 00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:51.360 And your church, you know, and it's not a bad thing that your church isn't doing every ministry that's out there, but you're using your gifts. 00:22:51.460 --> 00:22:55.300 So, in, through, or beyond are key things, all of which glorify the Lord, honor the Lord. 00:22:55.300 --> 00:23:04.000 And when you're beyond, you still, obviously, you want to be connected through your local church, under its care and love, but in, through, and beyond are ways I think those gifts are used. 00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:11.780 You know, what's funny is we started this conversation talking about the man on stage speaking, exuding his spiritual gift to the people in the room. 00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:16.820 And that's how today I would suggest that the average church deems whether it's successful or not. 00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:21.140 How many, you know, we talk about butts in seats and nickel and noses, we use that phrasing a lot. 00:23:21.840 --> 00:23:37.400 But what you're just talking about isn't, like, the butts in the seats number, but how we're motivating those people to understand the personal mission and getting out, whether it benefits the church directly or indirectly the big C church. 00:23:37.660 --> 00:23:49.000 Yeah, so, and it's, it's, it's tricky because you don't want to fall back on cliches, but if you're not measuring your seating capacity, you are measuring your sending capacity. 00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:52.520 And so, I think that that's not just a cliche. 00:23:52.980 --> 00:23:58.420 That's a really essential part of understanding the mission and the calling that God has on each and every person. 00:23:58.700 --> 00:24:02.240 So, I heard you speak last year, 2019, Exponential. 00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:04.400 I was in the room and- 00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:06.960 Are you going to, like, go back to all of my past speaking engagements and say- 00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:07.700 I am, man. 00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:08.520 This was wrong. 00:24:09.260 --> 00:24:12.780 Ed Stetzer has been hugely influential in my life. 00:24:13.220 --> 00:24:13.260 Wow. 00:24:13.600 --> 00:24:16.520 I love the fact that I can have this conversation with you. 00:24:16.540 --> 00:24:17.860 That's so moving to me. 00:24:17.940 --> 00:24:18.560 I appreciate that. 00:24:18.620 --> 00:24:18.900 I love you, too. 00:24:18.900 --> 00:24:21.240 And I'm disappointed you're not going to be at 2020. 00:24:21.560 --> 00:24:24.640 I just was looking at the guest list last night, figuring out what's going on. 00:24:24.660 --> 00:24:25.400 You're not going to be there. 00:24:25.520 --> 00:24:26.240 Life goes on. 00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:30.160 So, I saw you speak at Exponential 2019. 00:24:30.840 --> 00:24:34.920 I was way up at the upper balcony of First Baptist Orlando. 00:24:36.260 --> 00:24:38.360 And you heard, basically, you said this phrase. 00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:43.780 You were like, I spoke 2018 here at conference, Exponential Conference. 00:24:44.320 --> 00:24:46.840 I'm speaking again, 12 months later, 2019. 00:24:48.060 --> 00:24:49.020 What's changed? 00:24:49.660 --> 00:24:53.280 What has changed between 2018 to 2019? 00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:56.380 2018, I said we had to do this. 00:24:56.440 --> 00:24:57.320 The church has to change. 00:24:58.460 --> 00:24:59.720 2019, I'm here again. 00:24:59.820 --> 00:25:02.260 And I'm asking the question, did it actually change? 00:25:02.620 --> 00:25:04.420 Or are we where we are? 00:25:04.600 --> 00:25:05.760 Do you remember saying that? 00:25:05.900 --> 00:25:07.780 I don't want to take you out of context. 00:25:07.900 --> 00:25:08.880 Does that sound like you? 00:25:09.260 --> 00:25:11.100 That basically kind of said we were going to, yeah. 00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:13.960 No, I think one of the things that we talked about was, you know, everyone's like talking 00:25:13.960 --> 00:25:14.820 about let's make a movement. 00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:15.760 Let's do things differently. 00:25:15.940 --> 00:25:16.720 Let's change the world. 00:25:16.860 --> 00:25:19.700 And then I came back the next year and said, we're saying the same thing. 00:25:19.760 --> 00:25:22.280 And it's like, you know, Francis Frank Chan's giving the same message. 00:25:22.280 --> 00:25:24.380 And he's like, I just need more. 00:25:24.600 --> 00:25:25.940 And there's Francis Chan doing that. 00:25:26.120 --> 00:25:28.860 And Dave Ferguson's, you know, telling us we got to multiply. 00:25:29.180 --> 00:25:32.660 And what I would say is, I mean, they're all, I mean, I don't disagree with any of it. 00:25:32.840 --> 00:25:37.980 And, but there is a certain sense that I think that maybe it's, maybe it's just the speakers 00:25:37.980 --> 00:25:43.740 of these events, but I'm growing frustrated in calling for this change that would lead to 00:25:43.740 --> 00:25:45.700 a movement that everyone seems to amen. 00:25:45.940 --> 00:25:50.020 But then we go back home to our churches and kind of revert to the same patterns. 00:25:50.020 --> 00:25:52.900 And, you know, we can't revert to the same patterns. 00:25:52.900 --> 00:25:54.760 We've got to engage all God's people in mission. 00:25:54.920 --> 00:25:57.920 We've got to see multiplication become the norm, not the exception. 00:25:58.280 --> 00:26:01.400 So, and I, and, you know, Dave and Francis, friends, all good. 00:26:01.480 --> 00:26:04.200 Just pick those two because I have a good Francis Chan imitation. 00:26:06.700 --> 00:26:09.380 But now I'm sure people got a really good, that's their imitation. 00:26:09.580 --> 00:26:11.240 But so I wasn't, you know, mad or angry. 00:26:11.300 --> 00:26:16.020 I'm just saying we can't keep having a cheerleader meeting every, every year. 00:26:16.080 --> 00:26:17.280 And I'm for exponential, right? 00:26:17.300 --> 00:26:19.700 I love what they're doing, but we can't keep having a cheerleader meeting every year. 00:26:20.020 --> 00:26:21.840 And not move the ball down the field. 00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:23.240 That's a sports metaphor, by the way. 00:26:23.660 --> 00:26:26.060 I don't use those a lot, but we've got to move the ball down the field. 00:26:26.140 --> 00:26:30.860 Now, to be fair, in 2019, there was some data released that actually said we have moved 00:26:30.860 --> 00:26:33.080 the ball down the field some in multiplication. 00:26:33.740 --> 00:26:37.340 But it's, you know, it's still not, it's not the kind of movement we want to see. 00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:40.780 And I'm just desperate for a movement of God that's going to transform our communities 00:26:40.780 --> 00:26:42.480 for the gospel and ultimately go around the world. 00:26:43.160 --> 00:26:43.280 Yeah. 00:26:43.660 --> 00:26:47.460 So, like, the follow-up to the question, and I love Expo as well. 00:26:47.620 --> 00:26:49.300 And don't, totally not speaking. 00:26:49.460 --> 00:26:49.760 Yeah, we love everybody. 00:26:49.760 --> 00:26:50.240 Yeah, it's great. 00:26:50.540 --> 00:26:50.820 Awesome. 00:26:50.900 --> 00:26:51.620 Everybody, group hug. 00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:52.100 Yeah. 00:26:52.580 --> 00:26:54.040 How do we get the lead out? 00:26:54.380 --> 00:26:57.500 Like, in some efforts, I feel like we're stuck. 00:26:57.840 --> 00:26:57.960 Yeah. 00:26:57.960 --> 00:27:00.000 We're actually seeing it declining in some areas. 00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:02.240 And you've got some stats that say maybe we're moving there. 00:27:02.320 --> 00:27:04.100 Maybe that's the catalyst to go. 00:27:04.100 --> 00:27:09.800 But, like, church-wide, movement-wide, I think we're a big C church. 00:27:10.060 --> 00:27:13.520 We're not making the changes we should, or at least it doesn't feel that way. 00:27:13.820 --> 00:27:16.460 Yeah, I would say there are some exemplars and outliers. 00:27:16.800 --> 00:27:19.620 And we would say we're seeing that here. 00:27:20.140 --> 00:27:22.340 But, yeah, I think what you said is fair to say. 00:27:22.860 --> 00:27:31.060 I mean, there is a huge cultural inertia towards a lower commitment in church and life. 00:27:31.180 --> 00:27:33.660 There's a huge tendency that people have to that. 00:27:33.660 --> 00:27:38.380 And what happens is when new people come to your church, they end up becoming like most 00:27:38.380 --> 00:27:39.220 people come to your church. 00:27:39.340 --> 00:27:43.540 So if, you know, 80% of your church is not engaged and involved, and 20% is doing 80% 00:27:43.540 --> 00:27:48.140 of the work, you've all heard that principle before, what's the chance that a new person 00:27:48.140 --> 00:27:49.420 is going to be engaged and involved? 00:27:49.500 --> 00:27:54.200 Probably about 20% because they tend to be shaped and followed by the norm. 00:27:54.340 --> 00:27:58.280 So I think if pastors would make the hard decisions, and maybe even the beginning church 00:27:58.280 --> 00:28:03.220 planners would make the hard decision to not build a customer service, 00:28:03.220 --> 00:28:05.740 consumer-driven ministry. 00:28:05.740 --> 00:28:09.640 And again, I don't think most pastors are getting up in the morning saying, man, if I could just 00:28:09.640 --> 00:28:10.580 be a consumer-driven ministry. 00:28:10.580 --> 00:28:13.480 But they are saying, what can we do to better reach people? 00:28:14.140 --> 00:28:15.840 And as they say that, they reach people. 00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:19.920 And most people are Christians who are reached, and they come to our church because we maybe 00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:21.640 ask the question, what can we do better to reach people? 00:28:21.700 --> 00:28:24.960 So our church is better musically or better organizationally. 00:28:25.060 --> 00:28:29.680 And so we attract people who are customers and consumers of the kind of worship we like 00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:31.980 and the kind of ministries we provide. 00:28:32.120 --> 00:28:39.100 And then we're like, shocked, shocked, Pearl Clutchin shocked that the church that we grew 00:28:39.100 --> 00:28:42.880 actually has more customers than it does co-laborers in the gospel. 00:28:43.120 --> 00:28:45.760 So I would say, and I'm not against growth, I'm not against big churches. 00:28:45.900 --> 00:28:46.600 I'm for all that. 00:28:47.160 --> 00:28:51.100 What I would say is we need to just make sure we don't end up with a room full of kind of 00:28:51.100 --> 00:28:55.580 knowledgeable consumers of the religious goods and services that are distributed in the way 00:28:55.580 --> 00:28:59.240 that they want and demand, or else they're going to go from our Walmart to somebody else's 00:28:59.240 --> 00:29:00.080 target down the street. 00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:06.540 Is there a need, Ed, because my father and I have been lamenting this as we've kind of seen the rise 00:29:06.540 --> 00:29:10.120 of small groups and the need for small groups, but is there a need for Sunday school to kind of 00:29:10.120 --> 00:29:16.280 make a re-emergence to help educate Christians as to how to evangelize, how to help bring somebody 00:29:16.280 --> 00:29:17.400 else up alongside them? 00:29:17.460 --> 00:29:22.480 Because there's a lot of that that I grew up in a Sunday school environment, Jeff did, you may have as 00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:27.240 well, where that was just kind of the norm in terms of understanding some of those things. 00:29:27.240 --> 00:29:31.920 And now, small groups, unintentionally, for the sake of community, but for the sake of, 00:29:32.060 --> 00:29:34.440 hey, look, we're going to give you a DVD or we're going to give you right now media, you 00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:36.640 hit play, you ask a few questions, and then you kind of roll. 00:29:37.400 --> 00:29:41.980 Does it do the job of challenging people, or is there a place where we need just more education 00:29:41.980 --> 00:29:42.500 on this front? 00:29:44.660 --> 00:29:45.500 That's a good question. 00:29:46.740 --> 00:29:53.380 If I had my preference, yes, I would love to see another time devoted to deeper study of 00:29:53.380 --> 00:29:57.220 the Word of God, where celebration, worship, you know, care and community and 00:29:57.240 --> 00:30:02.000 small groups and some sort of input of content that helps me be grounded in the Word of God, 00:30:02.060 --> 00:30:03.540 like a Sunday school or something like that. 00:30:05.100 --> 00:30:09.100 But the reality is, is most churches have moved away from that and people, churches have moved 00:30:09.100 --> 00:30:10.440 away from that because people have moved away from that. 00:30:10.520 --> 00:30:12.860 It's not, you know, one is related to the other. 00:30:13.120 --> 00:30:19.700 And so I would say, if that's the case, it's not that they're asking us, it's not that we 00:30:19.700 --> 00:30:22.260 get to choose or anything like that. 00:30:22.580 --> 00:30:31.320 It's ultimately, at the end of the day, we're called to develop a people and there are certain 00:30:31.320 --> 00:30:33.140 biblical teachings and commands we want to follow to do that. 00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:34.500 One of them is they might learn the Word of God. 00:30:35.280 --> 00:30:41.160 However, not however, in addition, there are structures and within which we work and cultures 00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:42.060 within which we work. 00:30:42.580 --> 00:30:46.600 So I'm a believer that you need a third time. 00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:50.200 And so for me, it might be, you know, Bible study on Saturday morning. 00:30:50.200 --> 00:30:54.960 It might be something else to go deeper because I think it's cost us a lot, maybe more than 00:30:54.960 --> 00:30:55.400 we expected. 00:30:55.780 --> 00:31:01.660 It's cost us a lot to move away from things like a Sunday school model, which again, it's 00:31:01.660 --> 00:31:06.260 easy to mock because, you know, some of it was a little goofy, but I mean, there are millions 00:31:06.260 --> 00:31:07.340 upon millions upon millions of people. 00:31:07.420 --> 00:31:10.280 I didn't grow up in church like you did, but, and I'm so thankful you did. 00:31:11.300 --> 00:31:16.580 But so many millions of people have been just transformed by the ongoing engagement, the 00:31:16.580 --> 00:31:16.940 Word of God. 00:31:17.140 --> 00:31:18.020 So I want a third time. 00:31:18.120 --> 00:31:18.520 I do. 00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:20.520 I want a third time beyond church and small group. 00:31:20.860 --> 00:31:21.660 And I think that's key. 00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:22.600 Is it Sunday morning? 00:31:22.660 --> 00:31:23.300 I don't know. 00:31:23.360 --> 00:31:24.780 If that will work, I'm for it. 00:31:24.780 --> 00:31:28.080 I'm for anything where God's people will get more, more engaged in God's Word. 00:31:28.540 --> 00:31:31.740 We've got so much that's that we've got so much content. 00:31:31.820 --> 00:31:34.540 We're almost inundated with content nowadays in terms of Christian content. 00:31:34.620 --> 00:31:34.880 Okay. 00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:37.540 I actually think I'm a little different place than you are, Ray. 00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:38.500 And that's okay. 00:31:38.500 --> 00:31:39.180 Cause we love each other. 00:31:39.220 --> 00:31:39.580 We're friends. 00:31:40.040 --> 00:31:44.300 I think that the community is going to be mainly through the care groups, through the 00:31:44.300 --> 00:31:46.060 cell groups, through the home groups, through the house groups. 00:31:46.420 --> 00:31:51.180 So I'm talking about celebrative worship gathered together, talking about small groups, 00:31:51.240 --> 00:31:51.920 meeting in homes. 00:31:52.080 --> 00:31:57.320 And then I'm talking about what you call like a Sunday school, which is more content driven. 00:31:57.400 --> 00:32:02.420 So I wouldn't have small groups in a church and an alternative small group expression in 00:32:02.420 --> 00:32:02.760 Sunday school. 00:32:03.120 --> 00:32:06.540 I think Sunday schools could be small groups, but then they're, they're also going to be 00:32:06.540 --> 00:32:08.060 dealing with pastoral care and prayer and things of that sort. 00:32:08.120 --> 00:32:12.460 I'm looking, I'm looking for one place for deeper discipleship, deeper Bible study as 00:32:12.460 --> 00:32:12.700 well. 00:32:12.840 --> 00:32:14.620 So I think what you're saying certainly could be true. 00:32:14.740 --> 00:32:16.620 The third place could be community as well. 00:32:16.860 --> 00:32:20.860 I tend to think that most of the community focus happens in what could be a two hour gathering 00:32:20.860 --> 00:32:25.520 in a home where I'm only going to get people for an hour on Sunday before church. 00:32:25.580 --> 00:32:29.340 And so I'd want that to be more, maybe even a large group or teaching, you know, large groups, 00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:30.660 Bible study, that kind of stuff. 00:32:30.700 --> 00:32:32.900 So maybe we may be in a little different place, but that's certainly okay. 00:32:33.300 --> 00:32:36.760 I want to hone in a little bit because you said the word discipleship and that means a 00:32:36.760 --> 00:32:39.060 hundred different things to a hundred different people. 00:32:39.760 --> 00:32:44.700 So just paint for me because I'm curious and we talk a lot about discipleship in the, in 00:32:44.700 --> 00:32:45.160 the podcast. 00:32:45.160 --> 00:32:50.920 So like what, when you say discipleship in a discipleship group, contextually, what does 00:32:50.920 --> 00:32:51.580 that look like? 00:32:51.620 --> 00:32:52.720 What are you literally describing? 00:32:53.140 --> 00:32:53.300 Okay. 00:32:53.380 --> 00:32:57.680 Just so I'm not talking about small group, which I think, I think every church has a robust 00:32:57.680 --> 00:33:01.340 community of small groups that are connected together. 00:33:01.460 --> 00:33:04.680 Key for the church, pastoral care, Bible study, prayer for one another, and more. 00:33:05.420 --> 00:33:07.420 And, you know, that's kind of become the norm. 00:33:07.700 --> 00:33:09.080 You know, most churches sort of have that. 00:33:09.580 --> 00:33:13.700 What I'm talking about is I think there needs to be a third time, a third place where, and 00:33:13.700 --> 00:33:17.180 let me just say too, that, that discipleship is taking place in the worship service. 00:33:17.300 --> 00:33:21.340 Discipleship is taking place in the small groups, raise rightful concern for a greater 00:33:21.340 --> 00:33:22.180 sense of community. 00:33:22.420 --> 00:33:23.280 That's going to take place. 00:33:23.360 --> 00:33:29.220 And in my strange view, that's going to take place with the small group community. 00:33:29.820 --> 00:33:33.960 But then part of the discipleship, so I wouldn't use that term. 00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:35.340 These are not like the discipleship classes. 00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:38.040 I think that's actually historically what some denominations did. 00:33:38.120 --> 00:33:41.280 There was Sunday school, and then there was the discipleship program, which was some other 00:33:41.280 --> 00:33:41.520 time. 00:33:42.020 --> 00:33:47.660 So let's, let's jettison the structural ideas for the conversation. 00:33:47.780 --> 00:33:51.320 I'm not saying jettison them if they're working, but jettison those kind of preconceived 00:33:51.320 --> 00:33:51.580 notions. 00:33:51.700 --> 00:33:53.920 So I'm talking about a place for celebration. 00:33:54.060 --> 00:33:56.020 That's your weekend worship service. 00:33:56.660 --> 00:33:58.440 Care, community. 00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:01.080 That's your small group life throughout the church. 00:34:01.500 --> 00:34:06.880 And content, someplace where you engage the word of God more deeply, maybe through biblical 00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:09.500 teaching, maybe through a discipleship course that you're taking. 00:34:09.800 --> 00:34:14.160 That is a deeper experience than biblically. 00:34:14.740 --> 00:34:17.940 And the small groups are a deeper experience relationally. 00:34:18.540 --> 00:34:22.780 And then the celebration is just kind of the gathered process of the church together. 00:34:23.060 --> 00:34:24.080 And people might have different views. 00:34:24.220 --> 00:34:27.140 And I, and I, this is not one, I don't think there's like second opinions. 00:34:27.140 --> 00:34:30.020 chapter four, verse 11 says you should do this. 00:34:30.520 --> 00:34:36.200 But, but, but I do think that to me, the thing that I'm missing in a lot of churches 00:34:36.200 --> 00:34:42.380 is the thing that Ray brought up is where is that deeper place for community? 00:34:42.780 --> 00:34:46.700 And what happens, I think is people who go to a church that's very celebrative on its 00:34:46.700 --> 00:34:51.620 worship service simultaneously, that has good small groups that are community people in 00:34:51.620 --> 00:34:53.580 that church office are say, well, where do I get the Bible deeper? 00:34:53.700 --> 00:34:56.680 And then what happens is they come to the pastor and say, I just like some deeper teaching. 00:34:56.740 --> 00:35:00.020 And then the pastor sees that as a threat and, you know, and then it's like, well, I'm 00:35:00.020 --> 00:35:01.240 just, you know, we want to reach everybody. 00:35:01.420 --> 00:35:06.760 No, give people a third place where they can take it deeper and know and love the Lord and 00:35:06.760 --> 00:35:07.880 grow in knowledge of his word. 00:35:08.060 --> 00:35:09.820 And I wouldn't do that as a replacement. 00:35:09.900 --> 00:35:12.280 I would say that, man, as long as you're in worship and as long as you're in community, 00:35:12.580 --> 00:35:15.240 man, we'd love to have you go with a deeper experience of the word of God. 00:35:15.720 --> 00:35:22.120 Yeah, quite literally, I'm living that exact conversation with the church that I'm working 00:35:22.120 --> 00:35:26.340 with down here where they've got, they've got people that are, 00:35:26.340 --> 00:35:30.480 the services are very evangelical minded and the pastor's leading that way. 00:35:31.020 --> 00:35:36.220 Small groups is reaching a type of people, but then there's, there's that next level person 00:35:36.220 --> 00:35:39.060 that's trying to figure out how to be challenged. 00:35:39.060 --> 00:35:42.960 They haven't understood the call of personal mission in their life. 00:35:43.020 --> 00:35:46.980 They haven't understood at this point, we're on spiritual food and we should be feeding ourselves. 00:35:46.980 --> 00:35:50.020 They're not looking for that, that challenging opponent. 00:35:50.120 --> 00:35:50.840 They've not been reached. 00:35:50.900 --> 00:35:57.200 They've just really been kind of trained within that community, but not grown to the place 00:35:57.200 --> 00:35:58.760 of being a multiplier. 00:35:59.620 --> 00:36:05.560 And so we've been trying to, to work through and figure out like, how do we, how do we grow 00:36:05.560 --> 00:36:06.040 people? 00:36:06.140 --> 00:36:07.200 How do we train people? 00:36:07.260 --> 00:36:13.140 How do we help people understand the multiplication process that at this point, like we need to, 00:36:13.140 --> 00:36:17.760 we need to feed you at that upper level, but to the point where now you can feed yourself 00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:22.100 and then turn around as the Bible calls us to and start feeding others. 00:36:22.440 --> 00:36:26.360 And so really that's, that's the, that's the call of personal mission in that, by the way, 00:36:26.660 --> 00:36:30.580 and getting kind of ed to reaffirm you, I've, I've had several conversations and we're even 00:36:30.580 --> 00:36:34.840 considering bringing back a, a Wednesday night thing and bringing that. 00:36:34.840 --> 00:36:35.920 And that would, that would do that. 00:36:35.980 --> 00:36:41.080 And I, we do see some churches, it's really surprising churches saying we need a third 00:36:41.080 --> 00:36:43.800 time and it might go deeper with our kids as well. 00:36:43.980 --> 00:36:46.280 And so, um, I, so I'd like that. 00:36:46.340 --> 00:36:51.940 I, what I would say is I don't want to counter, you know, I think what happened was, um, you 00:36:51.940 --> 00:36:54.900 know, the, the churches, you know, Wesleyan, somebody's a God, Baptist, whatever. 00:36:55.240 --> 00:36:58.580 I mean, they had Sunday school, Sunday morning, something Sunday night. 00:36:58.580 --> 00:37:01.900 And then usually a Bible study before Sunday night, that Wednesday night, they had like 00:37:01.900 --> 00:37:05.260 a deacons or elders meeting on Tuesday and a women's fellowship meeting on Thursday and 00:37:05.260 --> 00:37:06.140 a men's breakfast on Saturday. 00:37:06.380 --> 00:37:09.180 And it just, it was the all consuming rally. 00:37:09.260 --> 00:37:11.680 You couldn't meet your, you couldn't even know your unchurched neighbors because you're 00:37:11.680 --> 00:37:12.960 busy driving past them to church. 00:37:13.520 --> 00:37:15.520 So I think the pendulum swung. 00:37:15.700 --> 00:37:18.000 I'd like to see it come back a little bit more. 00:37:18.460 --> 00:37:23.220 And, uh, yeah, so I'm kind of an advocate for that, um, for that third, for that third 00:37:23.220 --> 00:37:24.460 option, for that third option. 00:37:24.460 --> 00:37:29.020 I think that third option, am I, am I, you know, I'm a pastor, so it's all C's celebration, 00:37:29.220 --> 00:37:29.980 care, content. 00:37:30.160 --> 00:37:30.260 Yeah. 00:37:30.260 --> 00:37:31.440 I want that deeper biblical content. 00:37:31.780 --> 00:37:35.300 I don't think the place for that is completely Sunday morning. 00:37:36.260 --> 00:37:37.900 I, you know, I generally teach through books of the Bible. 00:37:38.420 --> 00:37:40.520 Um, and so you're getting content there. 00:37:40.600 --> 00:37:45.880 Not all these places have content, but this is the one where it's, you maybe you're memorizing 00:37:45.880 --> 00:37:48.220 scripture, you know, my Donna, my wife just texted me. 00:37:48.260 --> 00:37:49.960 She's off to her precept Bible study group. 00:37:50.380 --> 00:37:54.480 So that's, I mean, the women right now in our church are exercising that as kind of that 00:37:54.480 --> 00:37:55.460 third place for content. 00:37:55.560 --> 00:37:57.220 Now I, I've, I've preached there. 00:37:57.300 --> 00:38:01.660 So should I be like, well, Donna, didn't you get enough content from your husband on 00:38:01.660 --> 00:38:02.100 Sunday morning? 00:38:02.100 --> 00:38:04.880 And the answer she would say is that's the most amazing content ever. 00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:09.760 However, a lesser content to be received can be received on whatever day this recording 00:38:09.760 --> 00:38:10.500 this is on. 00:38:10.900 --> 00:38:16.060 So yeah, so I do think that and, and I like, I like the, and so like one of the reasons 00:38:16.060 --> 00:38:19.900 the gospel project, you know, we've seen it go from, you know, five years ago we started 00:38:19.900 --> 00:38:25.480 went from zero users to 1.7 million weekly users of a gospel project resource in their 00:38:25.480 --> 00:38:29.460 hand on a Sunday is because it's become a third place for some people. 00:38:29.460 --> 00:38:33.840 Like people use small groups on, on Wednesday and it's, they're, we're putting the cookies 00:38:33.840 --> 00:38:34.640 a little higher on the shelf. 00:38:34.720 --> 00:38:36.880 Let's go a little deeper into the, the Bible. 00:38:36.880 --> 00:38:40.940 And I think that has good, that produces good, strong believers. 00:38:41.320 --> 00:38:44.360 What do you think of structures that churches would leverage for that third place that are 00:38:44.360 --> 00:38:45.720 outside, almost parachurch? 00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:48.340 Like I'm thinking of BSF, Bible study fellowship. 00:38:48.580 --> 00:38:48.800 Yeah. 00:38:49.020 --> 00:38:51.500 That give people that deeper access to content. 00:38:51.740 --> 00:38:53.960 But at the same time, don't cost the church more resources. 00:38:54.320 --> 00:38:55.080 Yeah, no, that's a good question. 00:38:55.240 --> 00:38:59.020 I think actually I said, Donna was doing precept, but maybe a Bible study fellowship. 00:38:59.140 --> 00:38:59.940 I should know more, shouldn't I? 00:39:00.380 --> 00:39:01.600 I just know she loves Jesus. 00:39:01.700 --> 00:39:02.820 She goes to a Bible study today. 00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:06.780 But I don't, I don't have a difficulty with being outside of the church. 00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:12.120 I think that most churches may be too small to be able to sustain that kind of thing. 00:39:12.200 --> 00:39:17.820 But what happens is like, you know, sometimes it requires, you know, BSF is, is a men and 00:39:17.820 --> 00:39:18.300 women, right? 00:39:18.380 --> 00:39:19.440 BSF is men and women, I think. 00:39:19.680 --> 00:39:20.820 Well, it's, there's a men's section. 00:39:20.920 --> 00:39:21.560 There's a women's section. 00:39:21.560 --> 00:39:22.700 They do their Bible study separately. 00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:23.240 Okay. 00:39:23.320 --> 00:39:23.500 Okay. 00:39:23.540 --> 00:39:23.660 Okay. 00:39:23.660 --> 00:39:23.840 Okay. 00:39:23.980 --> 00:39:24.520 How about that? 00:39:24.620 --> 00:39:24.860 Okay. 00:39:25.860 --> 00:39:34.880 So what I would say is, I think it would be good if churches also saw the value for 00:39:34.880 --> 00:39:39.200 that content, but I'm for any place where people are studying the Bible in an orthodox 00:39:39.200 --> 00:39:41.620 way more rather than less. 00:39:41.680 --> 00:39:42.760 So I'm, I think that's great. 00:39:43.060 --> 00:39:47.060 I sat with you once in, in Pastor Rick's office at Christ Fails for Miami, we were casually 00:39:47.060 --> 00:39:53.360 talking about, and you used the, used the phrase, and we talked about the, it's Romans 00:39:53.360 --> 00:39:57.000 or Hebrews, forgive me, I'm blanking on it, but the, don't abandon the gathering together. 00:39:57.080 --> 00:39:58.380 Hebrews, chapter 10, verse 25. 00:39:58.740 --> 00:39:59.240 Thank you. 00:39:59.260 --> 00:40:12.480 And so what I would love to hear, cause I know you're not, and you've been public about this 00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:16.740 and so in a context as online pastor, Tom, we were having the conversation and you said 00:40:16.740 --> 00:40:18.180 the phrase and it's, it's stuck with me. 00:40:18.480 --> 00:40:21.200 It's, um, uh, and that doesn't include avatars. 00:40:21.680 --> 00:40:26.360 And so what I would love to hear, cause I know you're not, and you've been public about 00:40:26.360 --> 00:40:29.800 this with some of your writing, uh, and in conversations with me, and I'm, I'm an online 00:40:29.800 --> 00:40:31.380 pastor, digital guy, live in that world. 00:40:32.060 --> 00:40:40.080 You perceive challenges and issues in context of what, um, uh, of a church online, a digital 00:40:40.080 --> 00:40:41.280 church, things like this. 00:40:41.280 --> 00:40:48.000 And, and, and I respect you respect that entirely, but I would love just being a guy who sees 00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:49.460 ministry happening in those areas. 00:40:49.800 --> 00:40:52.640 What are some of the challenges that you're seeing? 00:40:52.720 --> 00:40:56.240 What are some of the issues when you look at the digital scope, when you look at church 00:40:56.240 --> 00:41:01.120 online, I see an opportunity to connect with somebody seven days a week. 00:41:01.140 --> 00:41:03.660 Actually, that leans closer to a biblical model of church. 00:41:03.720 --> 00:41:06.260 You see some things that's at a different viewpoint. 00:41:06.580 --> 00:41:09.180 And I would love to you maybe to speak to our audience. 00:41:09.440 --> 00:41:14.780 Our audience has leadership that sees the digital world like you. 00:41:15.200 --> 00:41:18.200 So how can we, what are the issues we need to speak to? 00:41:18.200 --> 00:41:19.720 So wrongly sees it like me. 00:41:19.900 --> 00:41:20.300 So wrongly. 00:41:20.640 --> 00:41:24.860 Um, and cause I know, I, I think, I think I even remember that there in that conversation, 00:41:24.860 --> 00:41:29.800 there was, um, actually some push back and forth with you and me. 00:41:30.160 --> 00:41:31.200 Um, and I think that's good. 00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:35.460 So, so let me say first, you want to talk about the concerns, but I want to say first, 00:41:35.460 --> 00:41:38.140 let me talk about the areas that I want to affirm. 00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:45.720 Um, I think that, that online church is a great opportunity for people to engage in community 00:41:45.720 --> 00:41:51.760 and can really be a tool to use what you talked about, that greater sense of community day 00:41:51.760 --> 00:41:52.240 by day. 00:41:52.600 --> 00:41:54.900 Uh, cause far people, far more people are engaging in Facebook. 00:41:54.900 --> 00:41:59.040 And if you have a robust community there, or, you know, sometimes even an internal church 00:41:59.040 --> 00:42:02.720 community, like, um, you know, church community builder, or maybe there's resources you particularly 00:42:02.720 --> 00:42:07.400 recommend where you've got, you know, chat rooms and online conversation. 00:42:08.160 --> 00:42:14.280 And yeah, so I, I actually think that in 2020, if you have the resources to do so, you'd be 00:42:14.280 --> 00:42:20.560 pretty like irresponsible not to engage in a, and you're in larger churches and have more 00:42:20.560 --> 00:42:27.840 resources than this, in a robust online engagement that, that really creates community that can 00:42:27.840 --> 00:42:28.920 be seven days a week. 00:42:29.400 --> 00:42:37.420 So, so I don't want the, I think my concerns would be when it does encourage people to not 00:42:37.420 --> 00:42:38.320 be in church. 00:42:38.500 --> 00:42:41.720 Now, what we found is by and large is it actually doesn't do that. 00:42:41.720 --> 00:42:44.380 So there, as a whole, there are some people who does do it too, I'm sure. 00:42:44.940 --> 00:42:46.440 Uh, and there's some people who can never go to church. 00:42:46.500 --> 00:42:52.580 I mean, so I know we'll get notes from someone who's homebound or whatever it may be and praise 00:42:52.580 --> 00:42:53.140 God for that. 00:42:53.740 --> 00:43:00.220 So, so one concern I would have is that person who, um, sort of is moving away from community 00:43:00.220 --> 00:43:03.680 and sees online church as a replacement of that. 00:43:03.720 --> 00:43:11.340 And I, I don't think that electrons and avatars should replace, replace feet and faces as the 00:43:11.340 --> 00:43:13.380 primary way that people interact with one another. 00:43:13.740 --> 00:43:18.320 And let me just say that we are now 10 years into online church and I don't think it has. 00:43:19.040 --> 00:43:23.960 Um, so one of the things you, when you were running our online church kind of world, you 00:43:23.960 --> 00:43:27.300 did encourage people to come to be a part of the community. 00:43:27.500 --> 00:43:31.380 Now, again, are there places and spaces where that's not possible? 00:43:31.480 --> 00:43:31.620 Yes. 00:43:31.700 --> 00:43:32.020 Here's the deal. 00:43:32.080 --> 00:43:37.380 We may be, depending on when you release this podcast, we may be in the middle of a global 00:43:37.380 --> 00:43:38.080 pandemic. 00:43:38.820 --> 00:43:42.480 Uh, my daughter was one of the first four people in Tennessee. 00:43:42.640 --> 00:43:47.000 They were at a youth camp in Georgia where some kid from Florida had swine flu. 00:43:47.240 --> 00:43:52.100 So they all came back from the youth camp with this flood of swine flu, including my daughter. 00:43:52.640 --> 00:43:55.720 And the church that had the camp, it's called Long Hollow. 00:43:55.720 --> 00:43:57.820 You have friends who are on staff there now. 00:43:58.120 --> 00:44:00.260 Uh, but they, we shut down church. 00:44:00.520 --> 00:44:02.680 So we said, nope, do not come. 00:44:03.060 --> 00:44:03.500 Don't come. 00:44:03.540 --> 00:44:04.800 You guys, we got to stop the spread. 00:44:04.920 --> 00:44:06.440 Now it didn't work, uh, ironically. 00:44:06.760 --> 00:44:11.040 And everyone in, you know, would eventually get swine flu, but it, but it's mortality rate 00:44:11.040 --> 00:44:14.660 greatly was less than the first reports, which is good. 00:44:14.660 --> 00:44:18.820 But so we're, we may be the place where the only way we're having this kind of community 00:44:18.820 --> 00:44:20.520 is online church. 00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:25.980 So, so again, so many positive things that, but at the same time, part of my challenge is 00:44:25.980 --> 00:44:30.500 I live in a world where I go to a conference and everybody is just a hundred percent in 00:44:30.500 --> 00:44:32.260 favor of every single new idea. 00:44:32.560 --> 00:44:36.140 And it's just, this is the great, you know, I write in outreach magazine and outreach magazine 00:44:36.140 --> 00:44:36.840 is a wonderful magazine. 00:44:36.920 --> 00:44:41.580 You should get it, subscribe to it, but everything's a great new idea in outreach magazine and everything's 00:44:41.580 --> 00:44:43.680 a great new idea at exponential and everything's a great. 00:44:43.800 --> 00:44:47.380 And, and what I would say is I'm not sitting around saying, well, let me tell you, I'm up 00:44:47.380 --> 00:44:50.080 on the balcony of the Muppets and I got some thoughts I want to say. 00:44:50.520 --> 00:44:54.560 Um, but what I, what I do want people to hear is there are unintended side effects. 00:44:54.560 --> 00:44:58.980 And if online church moves people out of community, then it's not helping. 00:44:59.000 --> 00:45:00.600 It's actually hurting. 00:45:00.600 --> 00:45:02.280 Do we have a lot of evidence that's done that? 00:45:02.520 --> 00:45:02.700 No. 00:45:03.020 --> 00:45:09.300 Would I, for example, uh, a mutual friend of ours did the first online baptism and would 00:45:09.300 --> 00:45:11.800 I encourage widespread online baptisms? 00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:14.120 No, I want people to get together in their community. 00:45:14.260 --> 00:45:18.260 Now you could say, if I were your shoes, I would say that, you know, they, the people literally 00:45:18.260 --> 00:45:19.240 watched the baptism. 00:45:19.480 --> 00:45:23.540 The first online baptism was, I believe in Pensacola and it broadcast from South Florida. 00:45:24.040 --> 00:45:27.260 Um, it was one person at a home, but they broadcast it in front of the church. 00:45:27.260 --> 00:45:32.480 So it is certainly the public profession, but I just want people to, to the degree they can 00:45:32.480 --> 00:45:41.720 to work against sometimes the trends and to say, we want personal community as much as 00:45:41.720 --> 00:45:42.340 we can have it. 00:45:42.340 --> 00:45:48.520 And then online church becomes a tool that even enhances that and, you know, provides for 00:45:48.520 --> 00:45:50.500 times we can't be together and more. 00:45:50.500 --> 00:45:54.400 So how far the divide, how far apart are we, Jeffrey? 00:45:54.400 --> 00:45:57.860 You know, I would look at, I would look at online community. 00:45:57.860 --> 00:46:04.180 I would look at church online and I would say that if an attender is only exhibiting their 00:46:04.180 --> 00:46:11.100 Christian traits, if they're only exuding the fruits of the spirit in the virtual relationship 00:46:11.100 --> 00:46:16.820 they have, and that is not getting into the physical world, then they're a consumer. 00:46:17.480 --> 00:46:22.500 They are the same type of person that's sitting that one hour on Sunday in the building and 00:46:22.500 --> 00:46:25.820 not living on personal mission for Christ throughout the week. 00:46:26.480 --> 00:46:28.400 And so that, that's, that's the philosophy. 00:46:28.400 --> 00:46:32.780 And we talk a lot about it in church online circles about the online to offline, where the 00:46:32.780 --> 00:46:39.420 gospel that we learn in the off, in the online world virtually affects our offline, our physical 00:46:39.420 --> 00:46:40.520 world relationships. 00:46:40.720 --> 00:46:49.860 And so the challenge of church online is not to, um, broadcast the services and be a replacement 00:46:49.860 --> 00:46:51.560 for a physical church. 00:46:51.560 --> 00:46:58.740 I would suggest that the challenge really of church online is to distribute discipleship and 00:46:58.740 --> 00:47:06.220 empower people to be the church where they are physically and to start to exude some of those 00:47:06.220 --> 00:47:07.500 things in a physical realm. 00:47:07.840 --> 00:47:15.060 The problem is, is that the vision of what church online can be is lost at the same level 00:47:15.060 --> 00:47:20.400 and forgive me for overstating, but where the average church today doesn't understand a 00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:21.680 lot of the things that we talked about. 00:47:21.780 --> 00:47:23.180 They don't understand your three C's. 00:47:23.260 --> 00:47:25.140 They don't understand multiplication. 00:47:25.880 --> 00:47:30.220 Uh, what they understand is we got to get as many people in here on Sunday because we're 00:47:30.220 --> 00:47:34.640 defining the success of our church off the butts in the seats and the nickels in the noses 00:47:34.640 --> 00:47:39.520 and not off of, Ed, it's the, one of my favorite things you've said today, this idea of a 00:47:39.520 --> 00:47:44.420 successfulness of a church is its ability to have people multiply themselves. 00:47:45.020 --> 00:47:50.460 Um, and so that actually is the exact same line that I would look at with church online. 00:47:51.560 --> 00:47:56.720 The problem is, is that the average church in America doesn't have that vision, much less 00:47:56.720 --> 00:47:57.320 for church online. 00:47:57.320 --> 00:47:58.540 They don't even have it for themselves. 00:47:58.540 --> 00:47:58.980 Right. 00:47:59.100 --> 00:48:03.100 And so there's an opportunity, you know, the more that I talk about church online, the 00:48:03.100 --> 00:48:08.040 more that I just ended up talking about church because the culture that's being propagated 00:48:08.040 --> 00:48:11.380 out of the church, well, church online is just a mirror of it. 00:48:11.540 --> 00:48:14.820 It's, it's a force magnifier, uh, towards that. 00:48:14.940 --> 00:48:19.740 And so we have an opportunity, I think, to change culture that not only is going to help 00:48:19.740 --> 00:48:22.260 the church online, but it's going to help the physical church as well. 00:48:22.260 --> 00:48:25.560 I, I, I, I don't think there's a lot of daylight between us. 00:48:26.040 --> 00:48:30.900 Um, cause I, what I would say is if I, if I were to be having a conversation with Joe church 00:48:30.900 --> 00:48:32.980 member or, you know, Joe pastor, whatever. 00:48:33.760 --> 00:48:41.360 Um, what I would say is what Jeffrey's talking about, you need all in all on all over your 00:48:41.360 --> 00:48:43.360 church because that's where people are. 00:48:43.360 --> 00:48:45.880 And that's the means of communication they're needing. 00:48:46.240 --> 00:48:47.720 I mean, we used to have telephone prayer chains. 00:48:47.920 --> 00:48:50.960 I mean, I don't know how old you have to be to know, Ray, do you remember telephone prayer 00:48:50.960 --> 00:48:51.240 trains? 00:48:51.520 --> 00:48:52.180 Totally do. 00:48:52.420 --> 00:48:52.600 Yeah. 00:48:52.600 --> 00:48:54.160 I don't know how old you got to be to remember that. 00:48:55.080 --> 00:48:58.180 So, so, and imagine, you know, how bad it is too, cause you call somebody, it's like, 00:48:58.180 --> 00:49:01.380 it's literally like that bad game of telephone where you call somebody and by the time it's 00:49:01.380 --> 00:49:03.740 done, you know, so-and-so has grown a third. 00:49:03.760 --> 00:49:06.020 Arm and it's the craziest thing. 00:49:06.400 --> 00:49:06.800 Yep. 00:49:06.860 --> 00:49:07.640 Everyone has cancer. 00:49:07.920 --> 00:49:08.780 That's exactly, exactly. 00:49:08.920 --> 00:49:14.620 So, um, so I think we're, so, so count Ed Stetzer among the people who say what Jeffrey's 00:49:14.620 --> 00:49:16.640 talking about is, is right, important. 00:49:17.020 --> 00:49:21.280 And, uh, and, and, and as you described it there just fits very similar. 00:49:21.460 --> 00:49:28.660 So I'm far more pro, but in everything I'd like to acknowledge that the breathless embrace 00:49:28.660 --> 00:49:33.040 of every new idea doesn't always think through what could be the negative consequences of it. 00:49:33.460 --> 00:49:37.040 And I think I started saying that during the seeker movement in the, in the nineties. 00:49:37.340 --> 00:49:41.060 And, you know, I guess that gave me a reputation for just saying, Hey, let's think about this. 00:49:41.060 --> 00:49:44.260 Cause again, but I'm pro this, like, so in the mid nineties, you know, I'm wearing a Hawaiian shirt, 00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:46.680 you know, I'm walking around, I want to be Rick Warren Jr. 00:49:46.880 --> 00:49:49.500 And so I'm all in, but I'm like, Hey, there are some consequences. 00:49:49.920 --> 00:49:52.000 I might not, yeah, I lived in Erie, Pennsylvania, planting a church. 00:49:52.260 --> 00:49:55.920 Maybe an Hawaiian shirt isn't the answer to gospel work in Erie, Pennsylvania. 00:49:56.460 --> 00:49:58.800 But, you know, I think we have to ask those questions. 00:49:58.800 --> 00:50:05.140 So let's have concerns, but let's also seize the opportunity that online, online community provides for us. 00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:09.180 I actually don't see, I don't see any, any separation between what either of you were saying. 00:50:09.360 --> 00:50:14.000 And maybe it's because, you know, both of you are so engaged and far along off in the process. 00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:15.700 And like you said, that it's been 10 years. 00:50:15.700 --> 00:50:19.480 So now we've had opportunity to evaluate and take a look and, and kind of consider. 00:50:19.620 --> 00:50:26.000 And it's, you know, it's what, it's what you were talking about, where our people are both in physical environments and in digital environments. 00:50:26.560 --> 00:50:32.720 Digital is a great opportunity to engage them and to show them more spiritual content, but even create that kind of community and foster that community. 00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:38.500 And Jeff, you're a hundred percent right that we could be creating consumers just as well in digital environments as we do in physical environments. 00:50:38.720 --> 00:50:45.940 And that's something that churches in general, like Jeff, you and I have discussed this before, like our strategy online and in-person needs to be the same. 00:50:46.960 --> 00:50:57.500 And we have to make sure and emphasize that, whether it's consistently or on an ongoing basis with our people, just in terms of, hey, look, whether it's two or three environments, you should be taking part in all of these things. 00:50:57.960 --> 00:51:04.960 And then, Ed, to your point, and we've seen this, small groups, even if they take place online, are enhanced even more by meeting in physical spaces. 00:51:04.960 --> 00:51:05.960 They really are. 00:51:06.260 --> 00:51:11.180 And, you know, Jeff's mom leads a small group with, with people who are separated by time zones. 00:51:11.520 --> 00:51:13.880 Two small groups, two small groups, two small groups. 00:51:13.940 --> 00:51:14.220 That's right. 00:51:14.960 --> 00:51:17.620 And, and, you know, her relationship was enhanced even more. 00:51:17.700 --> 00:51:22.180 She and her husband were on vacation in Puerto Rico and went to go stay at one, one of the women that are in her small group. 00:51:22.180 --> 00:51:25.660 They went to go stay at her house and they had to know their husband and spent time with her. 00:51:25.900 --> 00:51:28.380 That's only growing and building that community. 00:51:28.920 --> 00:51:35.520 And if I were to ask Linda, hey, look, this physical, you know, this physical meetups enhance your online relationship, she would say a hundred percent. 00:51:35.520 --> 00:51:35.820 Yes. 00:51:35.940 --> 00:51:36.760 Yeah, no, that's good. 00:51:36.820 --> 00:51:37.060 That's good. 00:51:37.120 --> 00:51:43.860 So, so press on in good deeds and don't be, don't feel like Ed Stetser's back there saying, I got some concerns, you kids. 00:51:44.280 --> 00:51:46.880 I just, again, I'm, I guess, you know, I'm a professor. 00:51:46.880 --> 00:51:48.640 I'm supposed to ask those questions. 00:51:48.640 --> 00:51:51.080 And so, and I think that sharpens us too. 00:51:51.160 --> 00:51:57.140 I think that some of the people who may be criticized, I used the example earlier of the seeker movement in the nineties. 00:51:57.460 --> 00:52:05.800 I mean, I learned from, and I'm like, yeah, you know, that is kind of a valid criticism, but don't miss on all the amazing, I mean, people are coming to Jesus and, and I think people are engaged in the culture. 00:52:05.800 --> 00:52:07.480 So don't miss all of that. 00:52:07.960 --> 00:52:10.420 But yeah, there's some things we need to think about and be careful about too. 00:52:11.200 --> 00:52:11.500 Awesome. 00:52:11.920 --> 00:52:16.420 Well, Hey, uh, we're, we're going to land the plane and I, I really appreciate your time. 00:52:16.480 --> 00:52:20.060 I know you're very busy with doing life, the things that you are. 00:52:20.480 --> 00:52:25.180 Um, and man, I have loved having you on this podcast and even just spending more time with you. 00:52:25.320 --> 00:52:37.880 You're going to be speaking down here in Miami, April 2nd, um, with, uh, with Wellspring Counseling Center doing a, uh, a thing where Wellspring is, is literally addressing a lot of the stigma centered around mental health. 00:52:37.880 --> 00:52:42.060 And so in Miami, we're going to be over at a Wayside Baptist church. 00:52:42.100 --> 00:52:45.520 You can go to wellspringmiami.org for more information on that. 00:52:45.720 --> 00:52:50.760 And so Wellspring is just, I mean, it's whole, there's all kinds of like centers and people working all over South Florida. 00:52:50.760 --> 00:52:55.780 So if you're in any place and you just want to make it down for the gathering, it would be worth your time. 00:52:55.900 --> 00:52:57.540 And what's the webpage they'd find that? 00:52:58.040 --> 00:53:00.140 Yeah, it's wellspringmiami.org. 00:53:00.220 --> 00:53:01.740 We're going to be broadcasting it online. 00:53:01.740 --> 00:53:08.040 So if you hit me up on Deerfeg or follow, uh, Wellspring Miami on social media, you can find more information there. 00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:12.160 And, uh, I get to hang out with, with my friend Ed and produce another event. 00:53:12.260 --> 00:53:13.520 Small tip on Ed. 00:53:13.820 --> 00:53:27.500 Um, when he's on stage, he normally has an iPad with him that he has all his notes in, but he's also texting the production director when anything goes wrong in the room to make sure that he knows that Ed knows that something went wrong in the room. 00:53:27.500 --> 00:53:34.060 So, uh, I know sometimes I might text and say, Hey, do we have that verse wrong or the lights burn? 00:53:34.120 --> 00:53:34.600 I don't even know. 00:53:34.640 --> 00:53:35.600 I don't know what I've texted about. 00:53:35.680 --> 00:53:36.960 What, what, what, what it's next about? 00:53:37.420 --> 00:53:38.300 Oh, it's been awesome. 00:53:38.420 --> 00:53:43.660 My favorite one was, um, uh, I was, I was camera directing and Ed, Ed texted me. 00:53:43.900 --> 00:53:48.000 He's, he's like, you forgot to start the clock that would let Ed know how long he had to. 00:53:48.000 --> 00:53:48.440 Oh, that's true. 00:53:48.980 --> 00:53:49.100 Yeah. 00:53:49.100 --> 00:53:50.700 It's like, you forgot to start, start the clock. 00:53:51.180 --> 00:53:53.760 And I said, I texted him back while camera directing. 00:53:53.840 --> 00:53:54.300 No, I didn't. 00:53:54.340 --> 00:53:55.060 It's running fine. 00:53:55.060 --> 00:53:57.600 And he's like, no, really, it's not working. 00:53:57.780 --> 00:54:00.440 And I leaned over to the guy and I was like, did you remember to start the clock? 00:54:00.520 --> 00:54:01.740 Literally sitting next to me. 00:54:01.980 --> 00:54:03.180 Did you remember to start the clock? 00:54:03.380 --> 00:54:05.600 And the guy's like, oh crap, I forgot. 00:54:05.720 --> 00:54:06.580 And he pressed it. 00:54:06.840 --> 00:54:12.880 So like, Ed is just constantly engaging in this stuff and it is so, it is, I don't, they'll 00:54:12.880 --> 00:54:14.200 also make it sound like I wrote a sentence. 00:54:14.320 --> 00:54:15.800 I think I probably wrote clock. 00:54:15.940 --> 00:54:16.240 Clock. 00:54:16.420 --> 00:54:18.140 And then you're like, it's working fine. 00:54:18.200 --> 00:54:22.620 And I said, no, no, it's not like, yes, I was, I was doing a sermon at that time, but 00:54:22.620 --> 00:54:29.280 it wasn't like, dear Jeff, I'd like to point out to you that the chronometer that is appropriate 00:54:29.280 --> 00:54:31.420 completion time for my sermon. 00:54:31.620 --> 00:54:32.440 Anyway, you get the point. 00:54:32.860 --> 00:54:36.060 I thought you were going to start live tweeting now, live tweeting while you're preaching. 00:54:36.300 --> 00:54:37.360 Like, that's like the next level. 00:54:38.080 --> 00:54:38.940 Oh my goodness. 00:54:40.020 --> 00:54:40.780 That's awesome. 00:54:40.920 --> 00:54:46.400 Well, hey, Ed, thank you for jumping on the podcast for Ray, for Ed, this is Jeff with the 00:54:46.400 --> 00:54:46.980 Church Digital. 00:54:47.500 --> 00:54:49.760 Thanks for jumping on this one and we'll see you next time on the podcast. 00:54:50.000 --> 00:54:50.600 Y'all have a good day.