WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.720 episode 56 of the church digital podcast powered by stadia church planning i i gotta tell you 00:00:06.720 --> 00:00:11.920 stadia's planted over a thousand churches and we are out there right now trying to make sure those 00:00:11.920 --> 00:00:18.720 1 000 churches are stable safe and sound and we're not really just drawing the border at those 1 000 00:00:18.720 --> 00:00:25.200 we this is what i love about stadia we're creating resources and helping churches beyond trying to 00:00:25.200 --> 00:00:31.920 figure out how to master this this digital church this church online thing by the way check this out 00:00:31.920 --> 00:00:36.720 there there's a facebook group the easiest way to get there is if you go to the church dot digital 00:00:36.720 --> 00:00:42.160 slash coronavirus on that there's a number of resources we've created but one of the best 00:00:42.160 --> 00:00:47.360 resources we have out there today is is a facebook group that's that's managed by by us but also 00:00:47.360 --> 00:00:51.600 managed by a bunch of stadia people where they're getting in there churches are getting in there 00:00:51.600 --> 00:00:56.640 they're talking about what they're experimenting with whether it's working whether it's not working 00:00:56.640 --> 00:01:02.720 and encouraging us together as we're out there trying to figure out how to beat this corona virus 00:01:02.720 --> 00:01:09.520 thing uh and by utilizing digital tools and church online so if you're not part of that uh it's you can 00:01:09.520 --> 00:01:14.880 look for uh church online and coronavirus and facebook or head over to the church.digital slash 00:01:14.880 --> 00:01:21.680 coronavirus and find the link there on that page well i gotta tell you i have been sitting on this 00:01:21.680 --> 00:01:27.200 podcast for a couple weeks we've recorded this probably the day before the coronavirus you know 00:01:27.200 --> 00:01:31.920 i hesitate to say the word outbreak before everything exploded moving off the west coast 00:01:31.920 --> 00:01:39.120 more towards the the east coast here in america and i have been itching itching to share this this 00:01:39.120 --> 00:01:43.920 podcast interview with you because this has been you know the ed stetzer podcast that an interview 00:01:43.920 --> 00:01:51.280 was fun this one i was more fun than ed because it really um i honestly i felt like i was talking to 00:01:51.280 --> 00:01:58.320 like a a clone copy of of me we were so on this same page with a number of different things so the 00:01:58.320 --> 00:02:06.160 interview is with daniel m uh who is uh in canada he's uh works with lifeway he does a number of things 00:02:06.160 --> 00:02:12.000 he's written a number of books and and honestly the heart of this is we really delved into his 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:18.480 book called no silver bullets now this is an older book we're going back to 2015 but honestly just 00:02:18.480 --> 00:02:25.360 recently i read it uh there's a church i'm working with and they're having some some discipleship level 00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:32.240 issues within the church how do we keep people on mission what does discipleship look like we're having 00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:40.000 issues with kind of taking people to that next deeper level and and really i i just i i delved into this 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:45.200 book like i said in the podcast it was stuck on my kindle i bought it years ago just never read it 00:02:45.200 --> 00:02:53.040 uh and and as i read it honestly my heart just leapt and and i caught this vision for for what a 00:02:53.040 --> 00:02:59.360 discipleship movement in a church could be if it was done with intentionality but on top of that i kept i 00:02:59.360 --> 00:03:06.560 caught a larger vision of what a discipleship method could be if it was executed digitally to complement 00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:11.840 churches that are out there and so the more that that daniel in his book talked about discipleship the 00:03:11.840 --> 00:03:17.920 more that i had this greater understanding of what it could be in a digital environment and that made me 00:03:18.560 --> 00:03:25.520 very happy so we're having this conversation with daniel m and it is literally on the eve of the 00:03:25.520 --> 00:03:32.640 coronavirus explosion that that has happened uh here in america and around the world here with this global 00:03:32.640 --> 00:03:39.200 pandemic so there's definitely application points that we talk about here about how to get people on 00:03:39.200 --> 00:03:46.800 mission um but it also it talks to a lot to the heart of what it actually means to be intentional 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:53.760 towards making disciples in a physical environment as well as a virtual one it's been a great podcast a 00:03:53.760 --> 00:04:01.680 great conversation here with daniel m lifeway as not well as a number of other uh resources and 00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:07.840 connection points no silver bullets for church online that's the name of the episode here at the church 00:04:07.840 --> 00:04:16.320 digital podcast here y'all go hey jeff hey how are you doing i'm doing nice to meet you nice to meet 00:04:16.320 --> 00:04:23.360 you too hey i i want to thank you for jumping on this this podcast it's been uh it's been a hectic 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:32.720 uh couple days uh no kidding or so for for all of us i'm sure um but man i i just i wanted to thank you 00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:39.920 for um for sticking with this and and allowing this conversation to happen it'll be good i'm looking 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:44.720 forward to it yeah i i want i want to sing your your praise and i'll do this on the podcast a little 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:52.560 bit but um you know i i bought your book several years ago and uh it sat on my kindle uh as you know 00:04:52.560 --> 00:04:59.200 typically books do uh i got the app we'll get there eventually later maybe sorta and uh you know one of the 00:04:59.200 --> 00:05:05.040 churches i was working at christ journey church uh starting to run into some discipleship issues and 00:05:05.440 --> 00:05:09.200 and some things it's like yeah there's there's there's got to be a better way to do this we 00:05:09.200 --> 00:05:14.480 haven't figured it out and there's this no silver bullets book i just i want to go back to that and 00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:22.000 it really um i've read it and i was like oh this is so good this is exactly what they need 00:05:22.640 --> 00:05:27.840 and and i t i tend to be an extremist kind of alarmist type of guy like we have to do this 00:05:27.840 --> 00:05:34.320 like now yeah and i made key staff read it and they're like oh this is so good and and it and it 00:05:34.320 --> 00:05:40.320 really helped kind of pivot the culture or at least bring awareness to that and and i know you're not 00:05:40.320 --> 00:05:45.120 even i know it's not even like the thing that you're like pushing and promoting it may be old school 00:05:45.120 --> 00:05:52.080 compared to some of the other stuff but it's like i'm in this moment and um and i'm like man i really 00:05:52.080 --> 00:05:57.520 want to like just explore this and and talk uh with with daniel more about it so thanks for like 00:05:57.520 --> 00:06:01.200 kind of going old school here revisiting 2015 a little bit 00:06:02.320 --> 00:06:08.560 dude man yeah i love talking about it and and even when i wrote it you know it was this commitment 00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:14.800 to say okay do i believe enough about this that i'm willing for at least the next 10 years to talk 00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:23.040 about this topic so yeah and it's yeah i love it so i'm glad glad to talk about it well you picked a 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:29.120 really good topic to talk about at least from from a relevancy standpoint because we're seeing culture 00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:36.560 shift more away um from the buildings but here with the the church digital podcast we talk a lot about 00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:43.040 church online uh in in digital church i've actually taken a role recently i honestly i think this is 00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:48.080 even since uh we scheduled the podcast with you but i'm i'm with stadia church planning where i'm 00:06:48.080 --> 00:06:53.920 director of digital church planting we're looking at a digital only expression of church that doesn't 00:06:53.920 --> 00:06:59.440 exist in physical it's it's more of a digital virtual biblical ecclesiology of what does an actual 00:06:59.440 --> 00:07:06.320 church look like that would be digital only and and which really is a fascinating conversation for me 00:07:06.320 --> 00:07:12.640 that's centered more around a discipleship driven model a discipleship process discipleship pathway 00:07:12.640 --> 00:07:18.480 a lot of these words that i just keep resonating over and over with and honestly like in the back 00:07:18.480 --> 00:07:22.720 of my mind i just going back to no silver bullets i'm like i have to write this book i'm gonna have 00:07:22.720 --> 00:07:29.040 to write this book i haven't found anybody to really say what i want to say yeah then i read no silver 00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:33.840 bullets and i'm like yes i don't have to write the book i don't have to go through all this struggle 00:07:33.840 --> 00:07:40.960 because my man here daniel m's already said it and it's starting to roll through it so um i love how 00:07:41.840 --> 00:07:47.360 what you're talking about with this intentional discipleship i think is it's a it's a wake-up call 00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:53.360 for churches yeah or it's getting more on board with that today being intentional with it as opposed to 00:07:53.360 --> 00:08:02.720 being lackadaisical and and some of those things but even in context of online using uh church online to 00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:11.680 create some of those uh intentional points to foster that development and growth is is so good um and so 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:17.040 man just just thanks for jumping on here i just i have to know this yeah yeah uh and we'll we'll dig in 00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:23.760 right uh yeah this will be good how where did where did this the idea of of no silver bullets and and 00:08:23.760 --> 00:08:29.120 and just even the the four quadrants if you want to highlight that like where did this come from 00:08:29.920 --> 00:08:36.880 yeah okay so the the or the old school original where the whole thing was birthed it was when i was doing my 00:08:36.880 --> 00:08:43.360 masters at fuller and it was a ma in global leadership and basically my final project was 00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:51.200 it was and it's all contextual to your church uh the way they they did their thing so for me then 00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:57.920 i was trying to figure out hey how do i create a discipleship pathway that's scalable within a multi-site 00:08:57.920 --> 00:09:06.160 context thinking also post-christian too being in canada but just a sense of a of a of a scalable multi-site 00:09:06.880 --> 00:09:13.120 discipleship pathway that yeah that can actually that that works in different sizes of churches 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:17.920 right where you have maybe two thousand people gathered in one location a hundred in another 00:09:17.920 --> 00:09:23.520 four or five hundred in another so what would that look like and and that's really the origin of it 00:09:23.520 --> 00:09:29.040 around the ongoing steps the first steps the next steps but man that harkens all the way back to like 00:09:29.040 --> 00:09:38.480 2013 and it's just kind of it it it was great put it to the side ended up moving down to nashville 00:09:38.480 --> 00:09:45.920 moving to lifeway uh co-writing planting missional churches with ed uh and basically a uh an acquisitions 00:09:45.920 --> 00:09:50.160 editor was like hey do you have do you have like a solo book in you and i was like well there's this 00:09:50.160 --> 00:09:55.040 thing i've worked on that i worked on but i just kind of i never finished it because i didn't think 00:09:55.040 --> 00:10:01.040 anyone would want to read it so i sent her well what it was and they're like okay well here's a 00:10:01.040 --> 00:10:08.240 contract so that that's basically what what got it kick-started again and multiple years later it was 00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:15.680 a reassessment of okay does this still work is this timeless and then how do you actually communicate it 00:10:15.680 --> 00:10:20.160 how do you communicate it well so it was just further research that then got me into doing some research 00:10:20.160 --> 00:10:25.040 around the quadrants and had a conversation with dr robert coleman around that too i mean 00:10:25.040 --> 00:10:30.320 the guy right master plan of evangelism discipleship and i was like okay if he can get 00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:38.000 on board with this then i'm okay so he was my he was my gut check he was my am i out to lunch 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:43.840 and he yeah he i mean he endorsed the books right so i mean it was cool cool to have that conversation 00:10:43.840 --> 00:10:49.200 with him that's awesome i i could try to explain the i'm gonna be honest i could try to explain the 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:54.800 quadrants it would take me eight minutes and i'm willing to bet you've got a 45 second version of 00:10:54.800 --> 00:10:59.760 the quadrants that you can just nail real quick and roll through this seriously though just give give 00:10:59.760 --> 00:11:04.320 us a brief some brief synopsis because i'm sure you're more succinct than i would be okay okay so 00:11:04.320 --> 00:11:10.560 imagine a and maybe we'll put in the show notes right but imagine the uh a square with four quadrants 00:11:10.560 --> 00:11:19.520 and you have a copycat church a silver bullet church an intentional church and a hippie church right so 00:11:19.520 --> 00:11:25.520 if we're looking at all four you know these four quadrants what is the difference between each and 00:11:25.520 --> 00:11:32.400 every one of them you have the copycat church uh that views discipleship is all about getting to 00:11:32.400 --> 00:11:38.240 a destination and that's actually what what the copycat and the silver bullet church shares there 00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:44.880 it's it's all about getting to a destination so discipleship is about knocking those check boxes 00:11:44.880 --> 00:11:50.160 off and and doing this program doing that program and and the the difference between the the copycat 00:11:50.160 --> 00:11:55.200 church and the silver bullet church is the copycat church it's literally you know go to that conference 00:11:55.200 --> 00:12:00.240 we're gonna copy this model oh it didn't work four months later go copy another model so there's a low 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:07.840 sense of accountability there okay um the the silver bullet church is like the copycat church where they 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:14.560 still see view discipleship as checking that off uh these external markers but the difference is 00:12:14.560 --> 00:12:22.320 accountability wise systems wise it flows and everything looks good but the metrics for maturity are 00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:28.240 different it's actually incorrect the way that they're viewing the metrics for maturity and then you have 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:35.280 move it up right you then have the intentional church and you have the hippie church both 00:12:35.280 --> 00:12:40.480 actually the biggest difference between those ones and the bottom ones is that those ones actually view 00:12:40.480 --> 00:12:48.240 maturity from a directional standpoint right so it's not necessarily the destination you get to 00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:55.040 it's more the direction you're pointing in so there's a key difference a fundamental difference as to 00:12:55.040 --> 00:13:00.640 what maturity looks like and what the discipleship process looks like is it destination oriented check 00:13:00.640 --> 00:13:05.360 the boxes or is it the direction you're pointing in and the difference between the hippie church and the 00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:10.720 intentional church the hippie church it's kind of like the copycat church low culture of accountability 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:15.520 going from one to another so these are the churches that essentially are like oh oh you want to like 00:13:15.520 --> 00:13:20.240 you don't want to you don't want to meet together you just want to listen to worship music and go hike on the mountain and 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:27.280 and instead of gathering together for worship oh yeah that's fine that's that's fine right or or you you 00:13:27.280 --> 00:13:32.720 don't have to read the bible just read a devotional about the bible that's the same thing right so it's 00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:38.240 very lackadaisical as long as you're pointing in that direction toward christ you're fine whereas the 00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:46.000 intentional church yes it is directionally focused but there's a clear pathway to getting to discipling 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:50.800 people and and getting people along moving in the right direction so that's that's those are kind of 00:13:50.800 --> 00:13:58.240 the the four quadrants uh summarized yeah it's it's it's really interesting this this idea of destination 00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:03.840 and and and for for for for me with the the the the church that that i'm regularly working with like 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:12.000 that was that was the radical connection for us uh previous to that it was you know it was it was the 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:18.400 rick rick uh warren baseball diamond and and far be it for me to be overly critical of that because i 00:14:18.400 --> 00:14:23.440 think that was revolutionary at the time and really helped a lot of churches yeah move forward churches 00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:30.080 that i've been on staff with and worked with but the reality is is is that that 401 that home plate 00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:36.640 that people being on mission like nobody ever makes it to that class it's amazing everybody does 00:14:36.640 --> 00:14:44.720 the 101 you lose 20 for the 201 you lose 20 for the 301 and and by the time you get down to to the 401 00:14:44.720 --> 00:14:49.680 you know it's it's like oh this is the for people who are going specific on the global missions trip 00:14:49.680 --> 00:14:56.160 let's just make that to 401 and it's it's a far minimal um audience percentage of people that are 00:14:56.160 --> 00:15:03.680 attending but as a result of that we're really you missing this opportunity to have people be on 00:15:03.680 --> 00:15:10.320 mission where you know on mission may be defined as something like um you know and once again i don't 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:16.240 want to be over critical but hey let me serve coffee here or let me be um you know guest services or 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:21.840 something and all these are important but when it comes to personal evangelism when it comes to 00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:28.560 disciple making with with the things where we look at today's culture we realize wow like the best way 00:15:28.560 --> 00:15:33.920 for our church to be impactful is not our physical building and doing these events in our buildings but 00:15:33.920 --> 00:15:43.040 it's all about empowering people to have spiritual conversations that go and share their faith and then to 00:15:43.040 --> 00:15:48.160 disciple others life way like the place where you work and this is an older stat but i quote it all 00:15:48.160 --> 00:15:54.560 the time by the way if you guys could update this stat i would really appreciate it 2000 uh 2016 life 00:15:54.560 --> 00:16:01.600 way uh 63 of people are are no longer interested in going to the buildings to to learn about their 00:16:01.600 --> 00:16:07.680 faith and at the same way that that i myself i'm not interested in going to a mosque i i think i figured 00:16:07.680 --> 00:16:14.000 out what i know at the spiritual level and i'm not really open to more conversations 79 of people are 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:19.760 open to talking about faith with their friends if they see that faith is important to their friends 00:16:19.760 --> 00:16:27.920 and so you know for me when i look at the opportunity of of church online it's let's utilize this online 00:16:27.920 --> 00:16:36.640 technology let's utilize it to create a discipleship pathway a direction that creates in people this 00:16:36.640 --> 00:16:46.160 desire to be a disciple maker to be a multiplier of others it's not a consumer level thing as much as it 00:16:46.160 --> 00:16:54.240 is is a multiplier aspect of that um man just hearing some of that like what do you what do you think of 00:16:54.240 --> 00:17:00.400 that what are some challenges what are some wins what what about utilizing technology in this way to 00:17:00.400 --> 00:17:08.640 to create to multiply disciples yeah yeah in in my book no silver bullets i i talk about this idea 00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:14.960 of a of a high tech and a high touch approach to leadership development and in the book i i really 00:17:14.960 --> 00:17:22.480 focus it in and around leadership development but when it comes to discipleship right there there has to be 00:17:23.280 --> 00:17:31.040 the touch component to it right i mean we're there there has to be the interaction focus to it now i 00:17:31.040 --> 00:17:38.640 think that doesn't mean it has to be in person uh i think there's a sense of are you and is this active 00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:44.880 or are you is it a is it a passive approach right so as it relates to a high tech and a high touch approach 00:17:45.760 --> 00:17:52.240 especially with church online there is a sense of okay am i a passive consumer of this or is there 00:17:52.240 --> 00:18:00.320 active interaction like you and i this is very active for you and i for the listeners it's passive 00:18:00.320 --> 00:18:05.920 right so that's that's the big biggest difference so as it relates to discipleship and the sense of 00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:12.480 okay what does a high tech and a high touch approach look like it can very much be hey as a small group 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:19.120 we are going to gather together on zoom right and we are going to yes it's high tech and yeah we're not 00:18:19.120 --> 00:18:24.880 in person but it's active right so i think there's this whole sense of we need to have a and a proactive 00:18:24.880 --> 00:18:29.040 approach rather than this passive approach especially as it relates when we're leveraging 00:18:29.040 --> 00:18:36.080 technology but especially especially as it relates to discipleship so yeah i i love the fact that that 00:18:36.080 --> 00:18:41.360 you referenced high tech high touch i actually read a book 20 years ago i think i was in college 00:18:41.360 --> 00:18:47.760 called high tech high touch by larry nesbitt okay i guarantee you've never been in a podcast that 00:18:47.760 --> 00:18:53.200 referenced larry nesbitt he was a business guy it was it was early on it was like before y2k 00:18:54.000 --> 00:19:00.720 but it was it was this general principle that technology is and i forgive me like i'm old i don't know how 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:07.280 old you are but i'm not so old to be like the the grumpy old guy get off my lawn aka ed stetzer we'll 00:19:07.280 --> 00:19:12.560 talk about him later he's fun i love it yeah uh we did a podcast with him recently and it was awesome 00:19:12.560 --> 00:19:19.440 but this high tech high touch with uh with larry nesbitt you know the principle was is that technology 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:29.360 by itself left to itself is cold it's isolated uh and so it's it's very easy when you don't pay 00:19:29.360 --> 00:19:37.520 attention to the high touch level i think you are guilty we as a church are guilty of utilizing church 00:19:37.520 --> 00:19:44.560 online to create consumers yeah in that so if if we leave it isolated if we leave it unto itself 00:19:44.560 --> 00:19:52.320 we are people who are creating content for consuming as opposed to building relationships it's it's funny 00:19:52.320 --> 00:19:58.560 actually do they get off my lawn that's literally a quote from ed stetzer when he was on my podcast 00:19:58.560 --> 00:20:04.240 we'll link to it in the show notes it was yeah it was episode 49 um and and i'll tell you this daniel 00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:09.360 it was i don't know that i've said this publicly but it's cool um ed ed ed i love you if you're 00:20:09.360 --> 00:20:15.680 listening ed ed we i'm friends with ed we used to work yeah yeah yeah christian miami and um and so 00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:21.120 ed told me that very well yes oh yeah yeah yeah he told me he's he's like don't ask me questions on 00:20:21.120 --> 00:20:27.680 church online and i'm like why not and he's like you're not gonna like my questions if you ask me on 00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:34.160 church online yeah and i'm like come on ed can i get like constructive criticism can i say challenges 00:20:34.160 --> 00:20:38.800 and allow you to give me some feedback or and he's like just you know you can ask me if you want but 00:20:38.800 --> 00:20:45.120 just you're gonna get what you're gonna get and i told ed this i gave him this pitch of online to 00:20:45.120 --> 00:20:52.240 offline that the gospel we hear in the online world it has to affect our offline relationships and it's 00:20:52.240 --> 00:21:00.400 and it's a multiplication tool and it's funny ed stetzer as as soon as i was done literally he's like 00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:05.360 if you're a pastor hearing what jeffrey said you should do this yeah um you know and it's like 00:21:05.360 --> 00:21:08.780 he's never heard this idea but it's it's like let's not be 00:21:08.800 --> 00:21:14.960 consumers in creating this consumers where we're being negative towards this but let's be intentional 00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:20.240 that's why i love your book so much let's be intentional towards disciple making and i would 00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:24.720 just would add a little you know wrinkle to it let's figure out how to use the online tools 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:31.120 to get there yeah and you know another thing that that that i love for your book and i want you to 00:21:31.120 --> 00:21:36.880 kind of stick to speak in this and set this up you used the term social space yeah did you set up for 00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:42.000 me just and for the listening audience what social space is and how it kind of relates to this 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:50.080 discipleship process definitely definitely so let's go back to the 50s 1950s edward t hall anthropologically 00:21:50.080 --> 00:21:57.360 he was doing research called proxemics and he was trying to identify how do animals he started with 00:21:57.360 --> 00:22:04.000 animals uh realized okay how do do animals gather together and does this then relate to humans so fast 00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:10.080 forward quite a bit he basically identified four spaces that humans naturally connected you got your 00:22:10.080 --> 00:22:16.960 public space yeah your public space um like all the public spaces that are now being closed down because 00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:23.280 the coronavirus so 100 plus people right so there's that side you got the social space which is that 00:22:23.280 --> 00:22:31.760 20 to 50 person sized space so think stand-up reception before a wedding so these kind of fluid spaces 00:22:31.760 --> 00:22:35.920 and then you got these um you got these personal spaces which is the third one that's like 00:22:35.920 --> 00:22:41.360 eight to 12 people like a small group and you have the fourth space which is the intimate space one or 00:22:41.360 --> 00:22:49.920 two people the research basically stated that hey in all four spaces and all four spaces we experience 00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:55.600 community but one space it's not necessarily that one space is more important than the others 00:22:55.600 --> 00:23:00.880 they all have their unique benefits advantages and disadvantages and a different roi for each and 00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:05.760 every one of them but the important thing to understand is we actually experience community 00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:13.760 differently in all four spaces so if this is naturally how humans connect uh how are we leveraging these 00:23:13.760 --> 00:23:21.040 four spaces uh so joseph myers in his book the search to belong i think it was like early 2000s he 00:23:21.040 --> 00:23:27.840 was one of the first ones i believe to introduce this concept into the church conversation and you know many 00:23:27.840 --> 00:23:34.560 people have written on it thus far um since then so when you think about that social space it's that idea like 00:23:34.560 --> 00:23:41.840 how i think as churches we do this small the personal space well right small groups we do that well 00:23:41.840 --> 00:23:46.560 and some churches especially with d groups and accountability groups or ltgs or however you own do 00:23:46.560 --> 00:23:51.920 it more and more churches are doing this one to three person size space well because those are the 00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:58.960 spaces where you can open up those are the spaces where you can create trust and build those relationships 00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:04.240 and and a lot of churches do the large public spaces well i mean that's that's kind of like corporate 00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:11.360 worship gathering that 20 to 50 person size space that's the space that's often under utilized and 00:24:11.360 --> 00:24:19.440 here's the interesting fact post writing the book um if you're a church of under 200 people i don't think 00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:28.080 there's as much of a need for a formalized 20 to 50 person sized space program or an approach to 00:24:28.080 --> 00:24:34.640 programizing this because naturally a lot of these spaces will just be there you'll naturally have 00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:41.360 them if you're over 200 though that's when you actually need to intentionalize these 20 to 50 person 00:24:41.360 --> 00:24:46.880 size gatherings oh totally like you know and we we've talked about i think you may know the exact 00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:53.280 stat but something like 80 of churches at this point are under 200 the average church is what probably 00:24:53.280 --> 00:25:00.000 72 73 it seems like uh yeah in the states it's uh it's about 100 the average yeah in canada it's 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:07.120 under 80 yeah okay yeah so um but for for the the the mega and the giga church it's easy to get 00:25:07.120 --> 00:25:14.320 to get lost in that and if you're not connected into that um that that smaller group the one that's 00:25:14.320 --> 00:25:21.920 down at the personal space area um you're you're lost in in accountability almost and the church has 00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:27.760 lost that and so i i love this idea of that social space that the 20 to 50 number you know if i'm 00:25:27.760 --> 00:25:34.400 putting on on my online pastor hat and you know digital strategist i'm looking at that 20 to 50 number 00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:40.320 thinking man what would it look like if we if that was like house churches or micro locations yeah um 00:25:40.320 --> 00:25:45.680 around and i'm looking at like you know elevation church with their watch parties um the home 00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:50.320 gatherings that saddleback does we even talk about you've probably never heard of this but a church 00:25:50.320 --> 00:25:56.080 called first capital christian in cordon indiana um it's a small i'm going to tell you the story 00:25:56.080 --> 00:26:03.680 daniel's yeah this this right here is is exactly why churches need to understand discipleship at a 00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:08.560 deeper level this one it's it's in cordon indiana you've never heard of cordon indiana have you no no 00:26:08.560 --> 00:26:14.320 so here's the deal it's a small town of about 3 000 people and first capital christian and this is 00:26:14.320 --> 00:26:20.480 their words i've had the lead pastor we've done a couple podcasts with them on it's on the wrong side of 00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:28.080 town on the outskirts of town on the like the no one's around no residential area like that they 00:26:28.080 --> 00:26:33.520 bought the property decades ago and instead of the town going towards the church it went away from the 00:26:33.520 --> 00:26:41.680 church okay and so this church has every excuse to just dry up and die yeah for some reason this church 00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:49.600 has over a thousand people um regularly attending no no i want to make sure yeah do the math bro 00:26:50.560 --> 00:26:58.480 so i'm like wait a second you're telling me you've got 30 percent attendance in a small town in indiana 00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:05.440 right at the kentucky border this doesn't honest to god i'm flying out there um in june in june i'm 00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:10.400 going to speak at a conference and and i'm like i love you guys i want to see it for real and i trust 00:27:10.400 --> 00:27:17.440 them um and so like the people on tyler samson's a good friend uh he's he's the engagement pastor over 00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:24.400 there but here's where sacred space fits in um the the story and we talked about this in the podcast a 00:27:24.400 --> 00:27:31.600 lot where there was a nurse who worked at a hodgkins huntington's rehab center basically it's a terminal 00:27:31.600 --> 00:27:39.120 disease um with that and so she was working on sundays and she was really annoyed that she couldn't get 00:27:39.120 --> 00:27:43.200 off sundays because she wanted to go to church she doesn't want to work sundays but what she would 00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:48.240 do is she would grab her ipad go sit in the community center with the ipad on her lap and 00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:54.640 just engage watching the church service online and then one sunday like two people gathered around her 00:27:54.640 --> 00:27:59.840 and started watching the church service a couple weeks later four people a couple weeks later eight 00:27:59.840 --> 00:28:08.560 people 12 16 there's a photo i've seen it with like 20 people gathered around this woman holding an ipad 00:28:08.560 --> 00:28:16.320 at a all in like the robes of hospital gowns that is experiencing this church and she takes this 00:28:16.320 --> 00:28:24.240 photo text the the church leadership and says can you help me do ministry here this small church they've 00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:33.680 they've literally discipled 18 volunteers intentionally grown 18 people to be volunteer campus pastors at 18 00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:42.160 micro locations around incredible it's it's things like prisons it's things like um uh orphanages 00:28:42.160 --> 00:28:49.520 they're literally adopting people children and to be part of the family solving within this small town they're 00:28:49.520 --> 00:28:56.960 getting uh 500 to 600 people engaging in these micro locations so i'm bad at math but they're roughly 00:28:56.960 --> 00:29:05.600 a thousand roughly 500 maybe 1500 okay maybe they're getting some crossover but in a small town at 3000 00:29:05.600 --> 00:29:11.680 that's incredible dude the vision of our church is to reach one percent of edmonton it's just one percent 00:29:13.520 --> 00:29:19.680 and we're running a few thousand on a weekend right so it's just one percent that is incredible 00:29:20.880 --> 00:29:27.120 and and what you get from this is this is the power of of empowering someone with the gospel and saying 00:29:27.120 --> 00:29:35.200 you go the thing that i i love is the people that are the campus pastors um the volunteer campus pastors 00:29:35.200 --> 00:29:40.800 the unpaid people yeah they're out there doing the ministry the locations they often go to they have a 00:29:40.800 --> 00:29:47.600 personal heart for it's not like the the pastor is running around trying to find all these locations 00:29:47.600 --> 00:29:54.160 and manage this stuff it's like what are you passionate about go disciple make disciples yeah 00:29:54.160 --> 00:30:00.560 grow in that area and let let us the church first capital christian let us help you with that 00:30:00.560 --> 00:30:06.640 man it's so awesome a phenomenal story and a challenge for i think a lot of churches out there 00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:15.200 that if we could kind of release the priesthood to the believers let them run equip them with the 00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:20.480 power to do this man we'd see some phenomenal things happen with multiplication and growth in our city 00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:21.520 amen are you a preacher 00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:27.440 that's a funny story it depends on who you ask 00:30:28.880 --> 00:30:36.080 i'm a technology guy um who had a midlife crisis and realized right there so we need to uh we need 00:30:36.080 --> 00:30:41.760 to do some awesome things for the world yeah and technology high tech high touch is a part of it 00:30:41.760 --> 00:30:46.320 so hey i want to keep i want to keep rolling with this because once again in the book they were like 00:30:46.320 --> 00:30:52.800 i'm like this is incredible this is incredible you introduced a new term to me and uh and you got me in 00:30:52.800 --> 00:30:58.960 trouble with my marriage i'm gonna i'm gonna call you out because i asked my wife about this who has a 00:30:58.960 --> 00:31:04.880 masters of education and her response was not worn back uh and so you guys talked about flip the 00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:13.040 classroom yeah um why don't why don't you just give me a little insight talk to me you know about flip the 00:31:13.040 --> 00:31:20.400 classroom uh okay so uh apologies if you got in trouble with your wife oh it's okay we'll think 00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:27.360 into it in a second i do have a marriage and parenting podcast so give that to her um no all that to say 00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:34.800 the flipping the classroom idea is long story short right just super long story short it's basically 00:31:34.800 --> 00:31:42.080 the idea of okay instead of and this is within a church setting um instead of saying hey everyone's 00:31:42.080 --> 00:31:48.320 gonna gather here and listen to this talking head and then and it's primarily let's think about a 00:31:48.320 --> 00:31:53.120 leadership development so you're training volunteers okay training volunteers everyone's in a room 00:31:53.920 --> 00:32:01.680 you are speaking here's the lesson and then everyone goes away and you know maybe you pray together 00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:06.320 or whatever but then you're done your training so that's it the problem with that though right is that 00:32:07.120 --> 00:32:11.120 it's hard to get 100 of your volunteers to that training environment it's just 00:32:11.120 --> 00:32:17.120 with scheduling and all that stuff it's just it's just super hard so the idea of flipping the classroom 00:32:17.120 --> 00:32:23.760 is hey instead why don't we give the lesson at home or via video and then when you get together 00:32:23.760 --> 00:32:28.880 right you're flipping it you then do the work together so within the school setting this is i mean 00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:32.240 think back to a world before youtube 00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:43.520 like i live that world i know it yeah like 2005 if you shot a video how did you share it with a friend 00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:49.920 like how did you share it with anyone else before facebook youtube or anything right it was just so 00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:55.040 hard whereas now it's like oh of course it's easy to share stuff so the whole idea was basically in a 00:32:55.040 --> 00:33:02.960 school classroom these teachers who got sick and tired of trying to catch up sick you know kids who 00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:07.360 are sick who missed the class and having to redo the lecture over and over again they basically did a 00:33:07.360 --> 00:33:15.200 voice over over their powerpoint lecture powerpoint slides voice over and they put it up on this new 00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:21.600 fandangled thing called youtube and they said hey instead of me reviewing and recapping everything 00:33:21.600 --> 00:33:27.200 hey just watch it and then more kids watched it and more kids watched it and more and then it started 00:33:27.200 --> 00:33:31.040 you know people who weren't even in that class or that school started watching it so they're like 00:33:31.040 --> 00:33:35.920 oh maybe we're onto something so within the school environment it was basically this idea of hey 00:33:36.560 --> 00:33:42.080 when you're gathered together in a classroom instead of the teacher teaching let's flip it 00:33:42.080 --> 00:33:48.000 so that the lesson is done at home and the homework is done at class rather than the lesson in class 00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:55.840 and homework at home so that's that large that's the concept in a nutshell yeah so my my wife let me 00:33:55.840 --> 00:34:03.360 finish the story on my side my wife has a master's of education uh she's a uh uh she's the smart one in 00:34:03.360 --> 00:34:10.320 the marriage by far i'm the i'm the the dummy and my kids are brilliant all because of her dna nothing 00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:17.680 to do with mine and so like i i'm i'm on a plane and i read your book and i'm like this is awesome 00:34:17.680 --> 00:34:22.080 actually i bought the book flip the classroom that that you referenced there's lots of different ones 00:34:22.080 --> 00:34:27.520 out there but i actually read the specific one the two chemistry teachers and their their story 00:34:27.520 --> 00:34:33.920 and it was phenomenal super short read definitely impactful great things just for me even processing 00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:39.440 you know what this looks like and of course i'm thinking digital discipleship what it means or even 00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:44.800 church online like processing outside of it you know i've had conversations with 00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:51.360 um you know high level organizations working through how to do discipleship online it's like 00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:57.680 don't watch the videos when you're on zoom with everybody yeah nobody wants to do that watch the 00:34:57.680 --> 00:35:02.320 videos in advance and take opportunities to dialogue and discuss that's far more effective 00:35:02.880 --> 00:35:08.160 and so like organizations are saying this is awesome and this is even before i read the book like 00:35:08.160 --> 00:35:13.360 everything's going great i'm like this is awesome we're swinging momentum i actually now have a book 00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:17.600 it's called you know or the i can have proof hey here are the guys who actually came up with this 00:35:17.600 --> 00:35:23.760 concept daniel m said it's great yeah so i asked my wife when i got home uh dinner one night after 00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:29.280 reading the book on uh on the plane hey amy have you ever heard of this like flip the classroom thing 00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:37.360 and uh i love my wife uh and she was not positive in her response back no um and and the response was 00:35:37.360 --> 00:35:43.840 was more centered around yeah those are just teachers being lazy and uh now what's interesting and and 00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:49.600 there's there's a lot of heart yeah i mean she's an educator maybe there's some of and and i've told 00:35:49.600 --> 00:35:53.040 my wife i'm having these conversations so like people are like i can't believe you're saying this about 00:35:53.040 --> 00:35:58.960 his wife we're fine it's good but there's there's this place of you know she's defining who she is by 00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:06.960 the performance yeah um but not necessarily having the best mind of what's around for the for the 00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:13.200 kids and and whatever is best for the kids maybe we need to break the paradigms of what we're doing 00:36:13.200 --> 00:36:19.520 so that the students are able to get what they need yeah and there's and i think there's an opportunity for 00:36:19.520 --> 00:36:26.320 us even within the church you know i i i mentioned this to uh in a previous podcast and and uh in a 00:36:26.320 --> 00:36:32.000 digital pastors at a multi-site churches oh i've i've heard that lazy comment before people talk about 00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:38.240 that all the time when they're talking to pastors who do uh video teaching to multi-site campuses yeah 00:36:38.240 --> 00:36:44.080 oh the other campus the other pastors are just being lazy when in fact uh video teaching pastor 00:36:44.080 --> 00:36:48.960 the campus pastors that don't have to prep a message my gosh they've got so much more time to be 00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:55.120 yes pastoral shepherding involved in people's lives disciple making there's a reason why that model is 00:36:55.120 --> 00:37:01.280 effective it's not the perfect model and i'm not saying necessarily that it is but there's a great 00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:09.040 opportunity for us to do something different yeah how have you seen flip the classroom be effective i 00:37:09.040 --> 00:37:18.400 want to hear this yeah yeah that's awesome that's awesome so um how it's very beneficial within a 00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:23.040 school environment and not let me just do that and then i'll go to the church environment how it's 00:37:23.040 --> 00:37:27.600 super beneficial within a school environment and also when you're training leaders in your church 00:37:28.160 --> 00:37:36.720 is that in in a group of 20 people typical classroom 30 people what level do you teach to 00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:43.920 not everyone's at the same level so you have to generalize it as a teacher in some sense or fashion 00:37:43.920 --> 00:37:49.840 and there are going to be people who are on par listening engaged there are going to be some people 00:37:49.840 --> 00:37:54.800 who are like this is i know everything why this is such a huge bore and they're going to be others 00:37:54.800 --> 00:37:59.760 who just don't really get it and that's just naturally when you have that many people it's hard to 00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:07.680 customize and personalize the lesson the beauty of flipping the classroom is that uh if you get the lesson 00:38:07.680 --> 00:38:12.320 and you and you're one of those kids who get it and you're like yeah i don't need to sit in a lecture 00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:17.280 then just fast forward through it you don't need to watch the video at home a lesson just fast forward 00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:25.280 but you need abs and this is this is so key you need some sort of comprehension oriented assignment 00:38:25.840 --> 00:38:32.320 so it is some sort of homework but it but it needs to be some sort of assignment to um to indicate 00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:38.240 that's the accountability side to indicate that you watched or you got the concept right now if you 00:38:38.240 --> 00:38:42.640 didn't get the lesson you can rewind and watch again if you did if you if you're on par then you watch it 00:38:42.640 --> 00:38:47.840 all the way through so the beauty is when you're actually together because learning learning and you 00:38:47.840 --> 00:38:53.120 look at all the bark right bark as a model of um visual or all you know all the different ways that 00:38:53.120 --> 00:39:00.320 people learn not everyone listen not everyone can learn via auditory as well or there there might not 00:39:00.320 --> 00:39:05.840 be as much retention that happens through this passive learning but a lot of learning happens when we're 00:39:05.840 --> 00:39:10.800 teaching a lot of learning happens when we're engaging so when you flip the classroom and the kids are all 00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:17.520 together what do you do with the kids who don't get the lesson you as a teacher you don't teach the kids 00:39:17.520 --> 00:39:23.440 who don't get the lesson you pair the kids who get the lesson with the kids who don't get the lesson 00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:28.640 and the kids who get it are teaching the kids who don't get it because what that is one of the most 00:39:28.640 --> 00:39:35.520 effective ways to learn when you teach right and you're saying hey can you help joey here you get it 00:39:35.520 --> 00:39:41.360 and that kid the learning goes even deeper there and then the kids who get it you know they're doing 00:39:41.360 --> 00:39:47.200 interactive projects together so here's the thing right math why like i did kuman right and 00:39:47.200 --> 00:39:52.080 you know there's a lot of different drills a lot of drills that happen it's like okay why am i doing 00:39:52.080 --> 00:39:56.960 geometry why am i like it's just drill drill drill you need to learn the formula what if instead we said 00:39:56.960 --> 00:40:03.840 hey uh we're gonna build uh we're gonna build out of toothpicks or out of something we're gonna build 00:40:03.840 --> 00:40:08.400 this building but we're gonna map it out architecturally to make sure it works and that's 00:40:08.400 --> 00:40:13.440 why geometry matters and we're gonna do and you know so the majority of the class they're working on 00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:18.080 these projects doing the calculations because they're building a building out of toothpicks it's 00:40:18.080 --> 00:40:23.680 not just trial and error no you got to do the calculations first and then the kids who really 00:40:23.680 --> 00:40:30.560 don't get it that's the one those are the ones the teachers can personally help right personally help 00:40:30.560 --> 00:40:36.480 because they have the time to do it so within a church context it's exactly the same you have a group of 00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:43.280 30 small group leaders why do you think it's effective for why do you think it's an effective 00:40:43.280 --> 00:40:50.560 use of their time and your time for you to just for 30 minutes teach them how to connect or or how to 00:40:50.560 --> 00:40:56.160 deal with over talkers right how do you know that they're actually going to be competent in their 00:40:56.160 --> 00:41:01.920 ability to deal with over talkers just by listening to you you don't they need to practice it so give 00:41:01.920 --> 00:41:07.520 the lesson at home right via video here watch this 10 minute video and that's the other thing right 00:41:08.160 --> 00:41:14.400 you lecture in front of a live audience it's typically going to be way longer than a video because you 00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:18.960 need the you need the stories you need the inflections you need all that stuff it's a 00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:24.640 if it's a video just go straight to the point five ten minutes bam done right and people are okay with 00:41:24.640 --> 00:41:30.080 that medium and that and that and that way of communication because if there's too much fluff 00:41:30.080 --> 00:41:36.400 people are going to fast forward anyway right so having said all that give the lecture at home 00:41:36.400 --> 00:41:42.320 come together right that's the flipping the classroom give a five minute recap envision them thank 00:41:42.320 --> 00:41:47.440 them encourage them what you can do in person and then say okay we're going to do we're going to 00:41:47.440 --> 00:41:50.160 we're going to implement we're going to do this project together or we're going to have these 00:41:50.160 --> 00:41:54.720 conversations together we're going to pair you up here's a case study and you guys work this and 00:41:54.720 --> 00:41:59.200 and you're the over talker and you're the group leader and and work it out so that people can actually 00:41:59.200 --> 00:42:06.160 grow in their proficiency so that's obviously on the leadership development side post writing the book 00:42:06.160 --> 00:42:13.280 i also have done this on the discipleship side where as a small group now we would do book studies and 00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:20.240 and then we would also do video based studies so i was like man this is this is like this is dreadful to 00:42:20.240 --> 00:42:26.800 just sit together watch this together and now our discussion is uh we don't have a lot of time for 00:42:26.800 --> 00:42:33.120 discussion and we don't have a lot of time for prayer so i was like hey guys let's all watch this at home right and we were using uh 00:42:33.120 --> 00:42:38.160 smallgroup.com from lifeway and right now media and i mean there's all these platforms right so 00:42:38.160 --> 00:42:44.720 we were using it watch it at home come together now instead of 15 minutes for discussion and five 00:42:44.720 --> 00:42:49.760 minutes for prayer we now had an hour for everything or an hour and a half for everything 00:42:49.760 --> 00:42:57.120 and and instead of trying to you know gulp down our food in 15 minutes it was more time for food 00:42:57.120 --> 00:43:01.840 more time for connection more more time for everything way more margin and there's a lot more connection 00:43:01.840 --> 00:43:10.960 and yes you're right a hundred percent of the people did not watch it yes however however what was 00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:16.560 fascinating to me is that there was actually there's vertical accountability and horizontal accountability 00:43:16.560 --> 00:43:22.880 right vertical is from the leader downward what i realized is as the leader i didn't have to do the 00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:28.560 vertical accountability everyone was keeping each other accountable and if someone didn't watch it 00:43:28.560 --> 00:43:34.800 it wasn't actually me pointing them out it was someone else in the group horizontally be like dude just 00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:42.080 put it on your phone while you're driving like you have no excuse and i didn't have to say that other 00:43:42.080 --> 00:43:47.840 people were doing it because they're like come on man you're like you're wasting our time and it was just this 00:43:47.840 --> 00:43:53.840 neat dynamic that built rather than me having to you know come down with the ruler i love i love that 00:43:53.840 --> 00:43:59.680 accountability from uh from the level playing field not not from above hey uh you you said something i 00:43:59.680 --> 00:44:07.360 want to back up because i i there's a difference or i'm interested in your take because you said that 00:44:07.360 --> 00:44:12.800 one model was was more towards the during the book you were addressed it more from a leadership 00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:20.960 development side and then you don't delved into more of a discipleship post the book i i just would 00:44:20.960 --> 00:44:27.920 love what's the relationship between discipleship disciple making leadership development i would 00:44:27.920 --> 00:44:33.040 love as somebody at life voice somebody with with your experience what's your opinion on that just give 00:44:33.040 --> 00:44:41.200 me a couple minutes yeah yeah okay so vision strategy values in a church vision strategy and values vision 00:44:41.760 --> 00:44:46.800 it's where we're going and this is great commission great commandment right regardless of how you word 00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:53.440 it out strategy is what you do to get to where you need to be strategy in every church has to be it's 00:44:53.440 --> 00:44:59.360 like a double helix like dna and this is all in the book too um it's it's a double helix of your 00:44:59.360 --> 00:45:06.960 discipleship pathway or your leadership pipeline right those are the two strands in your strategy every single 00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:13.120 thing that a church does this is the what strategy is the what to get to the where vision and values are 00:45:13.120 --> 00:45:18.880 how you do what you do to get to where you need to go so um in every church everything that a church 00:45:18.880 --> 00:45:25.600 does it's either going to leadership pipeline equip the saints for the work of ministry or it's going to 00:45:25.600 --> 00:45:32.320 on the discipleship pathway side mature them toward christ this directional point of view so when it comes to 00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:38.480 flipping the classroom when it comes to everything a church does if we simplify it down to the sense of 00:45:38.480 --> 00:45:43.840 hey this activity is it either is it is it more focused on the discipleship pathway side or the 00:45:43.840 --> 00:45:49.360 leadership pipeline side and a lot there's going to be there's going to be inter linking of a lot and 00:45:49.360 --> 00:45:53.920 that's why it's a double helix that's why it's a double i mean there's a lot of interrelation but 00:45:53.920 --> 00:46:01.360 here's the thing your leadership pathway and your or a pipeline and your discipleship pathway are not the 00:46:01.360 --> 00:46:08.960 same thing and it's so important that we recognize that they are not the same thing and i even heard 00:46:08.960 --> 00:46:15.280 people say oh leadership is just advanced discipleship and it it's i can't i can't emphasize how important 00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:19.840 it is to understand that they are not the same thing there's a lot of interrelatedness that's why it's a 00:46:19.840 --> 00:46:24.880 double helix but they're not the same thing and here's why here's why and this is post book as well 00:46:24.880 --> 00:46:33.280 right uh what you believe on one you will begin to assume on the other if it's the same thing what you 00:46:33.280 --> 00:46:39.760 believe about one you'll actually begin to assume on the other so here's what i'm talking about your 00:46:39.760 --> 00:46:48.240 leadership pipeline you can check off the box and actually say i have displayed proficiency 00:46:48.240 --> 00:46:54.560 on this competency i know how to do this i didn't know how to do this and now i've learned how to do 00:46:54.560 --> 00:46:59.680 it knowledge experience coaching that's that transformational sweet spot i have now demonstrated 00:46:59.680 --> 00:47:07.200 proficiency and i now know i'm done i'm good great that is awesome for your leadership pipeline 00:47:07.200 --> 00:47:12.560 discipleship doesn't work like that you don't go oh i've checked off patience i've checked off 00:47:12.560 --> 00:47:22.000 love i've checked off humility i've checked off no no no no you are growing and on this side of 00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:26.160 eternity right it never ends it never ends and even on the other side of eternity it doesn't end either 00:47:26.160 --> 00:47:31.200 right we're always growing in our knowledge of christ always maturing in our knowledge of christ so 00:47:31.200 --> 00:47:37.680 if they're the same thing if they're the same thing what you believe on one you'll begin assuming on the 00:47:37.680 --> 00:47:43.600 other and just like you can check off competencies on leadership pipeline you'll begin to check off 00:47:43.600 --> 00:47:49.920 your discipleship pathway and then you'll go down the road of program you'll go down the road of yes 00:47:49.920 --> 00:47:57.840 i've done this look look at all the studies on my shelf see how mature i am yeah no it doesn't work 00:47:57.840 --> 00:48:05.920 like that we've got such an opportunity to to impact people in different sides um i i know personally 00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:11.920 like in some of the churches that i work with it's very easy to meld the two together the the the helix is 00:48:11.920 --> 00:48:18.160 is is is is a beautiful picture where it it it intersects where there's opportunities for it 00:48:18.160 --> 00:48:25.200 to work together but there's urgency on each side for different reasons towards that um is there 00:48:26.720 --> 00:48:31.920 from a practical standpoint just just give me give me a couple things here but from a practical 00:48:31.920 --> 00:48:40.480 standpoint how do you separate between the two like ed says this is ed you know ed's okay everybody we're 00:48:40.480 --> 00:48:47.280 doing a weekend service that's awesome we're doing a um uh we're doing small groups that's great we 00:48:47.280 --> 00:48:53.600 need a third thing you know the the i'm gonna drop another guy's been on the podcast the eric geiger 00:48:53.600 --> 00:48:59.440 simple church boiling it all down to two things yeah probably wasn't a good idea culturally where we are 00:48:59.440 --> 00:49:06.800 now making fun of eric i love eric too we need a third thing so let's go ahead and add um let's add 00:49:06.800 --> 00:49:11.840 add a discipleship intentional discipleship thing that's what that's what ed's ed's looking for 00:49:11.840 --> 00:49:16.800 he's like sunday night service wednesday night something but an opportunity for that deep bible 00:49:16.800 --> 00:49:24.560 exposure driving people um so now if i'm separating leadership development is that a fourth thing like 00:49:24.560 --> 00:49:29.200 how many more things am i throwing on this you know like what what is it what does it practically look 00:49:29.200 --> 00:49:36.480 like to create a a church that's developing disciples and at the same time growing leaders 00:49:37.680 --> 00:49:42.960 okay so last chapter of no silver bullets we have your we have our ongoing steps our first steps and our 00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:48.640 next steps right so ongoing steps are those things where as a mature follower of christ 00:49:49.280 --> 00:49:54.720 it's the practices that jesus practiced it's the things and that's where the research of here are 00:49:54.720 --> 00:49:59.840 the inputs here's 80 20 here's the inputs that make the biggest output so that's that's that's 00:49:59.840 --> 00:50:05.280 core and that's not programmatic that's just that's the life of a follower of christ programmatically 00:50:05.280 --> 00:50:09.840 yeah you got first steps you're brand new do alpha you're brand new come to here you're you know 00:50:09.840 --> 00:50:15.360 communication wise and i mean we can do a whole probably episode on echo chambers and how that affects 00:50:15.360 --> 00:50:21.440 church life and everything because that was definitely i've done a huge deep dive on that post this book 00:50:21.440 --> 00:50:25.600 because it was just it's crazy how it's affected discipleship so that's on another note 00:50:25.600 --> 00:50:31.200 and then you got your next steps so what you were just talking there deeper life next steps you 00:50:31.200 --> 00:50:35.920 know i'm we're gonna be doing these things called master classes right uh it's just this whole idea 00:50:35.920 --> 00:50:41.120 of what is that close to christ christ-centered class to just go super deep uh because there is 00:50:41.120 --> 00:50:45.040 a sense of yeah everyone needs to be a self-feeder but as a pastor there's a sense of hey 00:50:45.040 --> 00:50:52.560 we need to really pour into and mature our people so that's all great leadership it's not another 00:50:52.560 --> 00:51:01.360 thing because it has to be just in time type of training right and and churches that programize 00:51:01.360 --> 00:51:08.480 leadership that's and and here's why digital is so important right because inevitably 00:51:09.520 --> 00:51:14.720 in and sorry i'm i'm there's a lot of there's a lot of things going on uh my latest book you are what 00:51:14.720 --> 00:51:19.520 what you do and six other lies about work 11 life it's gig economy right i'm the premise is the gig 00:51:19.520 --> 00:51:25.360 economy is here which is side hustles so all that to say people have asked me so if you've written 00:51:25.360 --> 00:51:31.200 this book on how the gig economy has affected us lives as christians and as people what does this have 00:51:31.200 --> 00:51:37.280 to do with sundays like does this does this actually have something to do with the lack of attendance on 00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:45.360 sundays uh because 36 35 of the american workforce is a part of the gig economy that's 57 million people 00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:49.280 in america right and that's it's the same percentage in a lot of different countries so 00:51:51.120 --> 00:51:56.880 the the answer is i don't believe the gig economy affects sunday morning attendance but what it does 00:51:56.880 --> 00:52:05.280 affect is your volunteer hours what it does affect is midweek because now with the gig economy every 00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:12.400 hour is a billable hour every hour is a billable hour now right so now instead of saying oh i work my 00:52:12.400 --> 00:52:17.840 part-time job for this person i have to put in hours no every hour is a billable hour so for volunteers who 00:52:17.840 --> 00:52:22.960 would say oh yeah you know i would yeah whatever i got lots of free time i got lots of free time yeah 00:52:22.960 --> 00:52:28.560 i'll go help you do that i'll do this and these days it's shrinking more and more and more because 00:52:29.120 --> 00:52:36.160 every hour is a billable hour right it's like i could be doing this or i could be ubering for a 00:52:36.160 --> 00:52:40.960 couple hours or doing you know this contracting and i could earn a few hundred dollars and then i could 00:52:40.960 --> 00:52:46.960 do this and go on this vacation so i don't know if i have as much time anymore pastor right so here's 00:52:46.960 --> 00:52:51.280 where this all loops together where it all loops together going back to your original question 00:52:51.280 --> 00:52:58.080 as it relates to leadership pipeline leadership classes all that stuff in your church for every 00:52:58.080 --> 00:53:05.760 new volunteer that you have you need to think onboarding how do we onboard well and that onboarding 00:53:05.760 --> 00:53:13.520 is not a class the onboarding is just in time here's how to you know apprentice wise or online wise here's 00:53:13.520 --> 00:53:17.600 what you need to know and let's get together and i'm going to coach you and we're going to work it's 00:53:17.600 --> 00:53:25.920 on the job training but for every church you need onboarding but you also need ongoing training you need 00:53:25.920 --> 00:53:33.200 ongoing training onboarding and ongoing so an onboarding is immediate ongoing is you need to develop the core 00:53:33.200 --> 00:53:40.160 competencies of your people and of so that they can move up your leadership pipeline so the ongoing 00:53:40.160 --> 00:53:46.240 training the only way that ongoing training is going to be effective is if it's delivered online 00:53:47.120 --> 00:53:53.280 because the worst thing that you can do is doing a leadership development 101 class on another sunday 00:53:53.280 --> 00:53:58.240 evening or after church and it's one more thing when every hour is a billable hour one more thing that 00:53:58.240 --> 00:54:02.880 people don't want to go to and number one it they don't want to go to it because they don't have time 00:54:02.880 --> 00:54:08.160 and every hour is a billable hour number two it's like what does this have to do with my life and me 00:54:08.160 --> 00:54:14.800 serving as a small group leader because it's so generalized it's so generalized so but it's important 00:54:14.800 --> 00:54:20.480 core competency training is critical to move people from volunteers to leaders to leaders to coaches 00:54:20.480 --> 00:54:26.880 coaches to ministry directors and other so the reason online is so important is now flipping the classroom 00:54:26.880 --> 00:54:35.120 you can highly specify the training so it's just in time within relationship to that department and it's 00:54:35.120 --> 00:54:40.960 very focused and it's not another night out it's literally on the commute to work and then coming 00:54:40.960 --> 00:54:47.520 home from work hey let's talk on the phone right it's just yeah so no this is you can know i've been 00:54:47.520 --> 00:54:55.360 thinking a lot about this right i love everything about this like i'm i'm so excited by this what's 00:54:55.360 --> 00:55:00.800 what's interesting to me is i see what you're describing i see churches who do what you're 00:55:00.800 --> 00:55:08.560 describing and and and and just in my context yeah they're church plants they are church plants not 00:55:08.560 --> 00:55:15.680 with staff people but who are like there's a pastor who is who's the paid guy maybe or it's they're 00:55:15.680 --> 00:55:22.080 still fundraising and it's a completely volunteer team they are the ones that are more driven by all this 00:55:22.080 --> 00:55:28.880 virtual technology and so normal zooms for the meetings like and it's like the the the larger 00:55:28.880 --> 00:55:33.840 organizations where no let's just get everybody together the multi-site church that it's like yeah 00:55:33.840 --> 00:55:39.920 let's drive everybody in to like have these these conversations because we just we need to be in the 00:55:39.920 --> 00:55:44.560 room for it but i love the fact that when uh when i meet and through stadia just meeting more and 00:55:44.560 --> 00:55:49.280 more of them a lot of these guys it's like well yeah of course we think we can do discipleship online 00:55:49.280 --> 00:55:55.680 we do everything else online like it's not that far of a jump i know our culture here's the tipping 00:55:55.680 --> 00:56:00.400 point in my in my estimation because online's been around for a long time right especially training and 00:56:00.400 --> 00:56:07.200 all that stuff i think the tipping point was when linkedin bought lynda.com what was it like for 00:56:07.200 --> 00:56:12.400 two billion dollars or something like that a few couple years ago yeah honestly i think that was the 00:56:12.400 --> 00:56:17.840 tipping point you're gonna have to explain that because that sounds really deep i tell tell me why 00:56:17.840 --> 00:56:24.400 why is that the tipping point um so online's been around for a while and there's a sense of uh you 00:56:24.400 --> 00:56:30.880 know the educational world is has definitely lagged behind but the church world has lagged even more 00:56:30.880 --> 00:56:36.320 behind i mean obviously you got guys like leonard sweet who are just like living 50 years in the future 00:56:36.800 --> 00:56:42.560 and half-life and there's all that stuff right i mean the guy's brilliant but he is literally from 00:56:42.560 --> 00:56:48.880 another century uh like he is so ahead of us right so yeah in light of all that he's got he's got the 00:56:48.880 --> 00:56:55.680 doctor strange powers where he can like see all the alternate realities yeah 4.7 million and this is the 00:56:55.680 --> 00:57:01.760 one this is the one i love leonard sweet keep going i know i know and and by the way i mean cplf 00:57:01.760 --> 00:57:06.480 church planning leadership fellowship uh stadia comes to it but you should definitely come in july 00:57:06.480 --> 00:57:11.520 and we can he's going to be speaking with us it's all it's church planning stuff so we can talk awesome 00:57:11.520 --> 00:57:19.280 yeah love it but basically um the reason i believe linkedin buying lynda.com was a tipping point is 00:57:19.280 --> 00:57:26.400 because you had all of these online training platforms forming lynda.com professional services and 00:57:26.400 --> 00:57:32.720 you got skillshare and ministry grid and right now media and you had all these different online kind 00:57:32.720 --> 00:57:40.160 of platforms out there educationally wise moodle blackboard was way behind way behind right and then 00:57:40.160 --> 00:57:46.000 you had canvas kind of startup and it was like oh it looks better but it's kind of just a facelift and 00:57:46.000 --> 00:57:53.440 so all this was stirring right all this was stirring and then linkedin bought lynda.com i i could be 00:57:53.440 --> 00:57:58.640 incorrect but i think it was two billion dollars but i mean i might be way off but i know it was a lot of 00:57:58.640 --> 00:58:06.240 money a lot of money when that happened you began seeing a tipping point where around that time youtube 00:58:06.240 --> 00:58:14.960 then invested into youtube education ted did create this platform right so then and then master classes 00:58:14.960 --> 00:58:20.560 which was which was i mean this is high end online training where they're i mean i did the malcolm 00:58:20.560 --> 00:58:25.760 gladwell writing one i was gifted that right and you can learn or you can learn you know cooking from 00:58:25.760 --> 00:58:32.480 gordon ramsay and you're it's just like but literally the amount of money that was poured in the venture 00:58:32.480 --> 00:58:37.680 capital investment that's now being poured into master classes and all i mean it was just a 00:58:39.280 --> 00:58:45.680 right it was just so fast but i found it was ticking along very slowly up until that point 00:58:45.680 --> 00:58:50.320 and then you know zoom is not like who doesn't use zoom i mean we're using zoom right now but it was 00:58:50.320 --> 00:58:56.640 just it was just yeah so i think within the church world we've gotten to that point now where everyone 00:58:56.640 --> 00:59:02.400 in like online you know development every if if someone's in a white collar kind of job even if 00:59:02.400 --> 00:59:08.480 they're in a blue collar job development ongoing development is important certification is important 00:59:08.480 --> 00:59:14.960 and it's more and more and more online so why are we lagging so behind as a church i i i love 00:59:16.000 --> 00:59:22.560 everything about this this entire conversation this has been the highlight of of a crazy couple weeks 00:59:22.560 --> 00:59:26.320 yeah i want to ask i want to ask this yeah yeah thank you i want to ask this one question because 00:59:26.320 --> 00:59:31.520 i'm really interested you've set this question up so perfectly i don't even need to really except 00:59:31.520 --> 00:59:37.360 i want to educate you on on my terms okay through stadia they hired me to be director of digital church 00:59:37.360 --> 00:59:43.600 planting we are literally trying to figure out what a digital only expression of church looks like 00:59:44.720 --> 00:59:51.440 as part of that we're wrestling with the biblical ecclesiology of of what are the biblical functions and not 00:59:51.440 --> 00:59:58.480 how do we mirror what happens in physical space and do it virtually but how best can we do virtually 00:59:58.480 --> 01:00:04.960 what the bible calls us to do so example teaching we're doing a 40-minute sermon on a platform well 01:00:04.960 --> 01:00:12.080 is is a 40-minute sermon the best way to communicate teaching i actually had had a guy tell me hey you 01:00:12.080 --> 01:00:19.120 know what paul um wrote when he taught that means that writing's okay why don't we just write and i'm like 01:00:19.120 --> 01:00:24.480 wait are you telling me that teaching could be blog format like that nobody has i have never heard 01:00:24.480 --> 01:00:29.600 that but somebody just kind of and this is a guy i trust jason morris from west side yeah uh family 01:00:29.600 --> 01:00:36.640 and just and so we're we're having lots of these fun conversations in process to try to figure out 01:00:37.200 --> 01:00:43.600 how a church can function 100 digitally there's guys like and and i may throw some things out that 01:00:43.600 --> 01:00:49.360 you don't know but dj soto is doing vr church i don't know if you're familiar with him yeah um jade 01:00:49.360 --> 01:00:56.560 earhart is uh doing a video game uh church is that moving in that direction but he's got a discipleship 01:00:56.560 --> 01:01:02.400 platform from through discord literally discipling video gamers who are going out and witnessing 01:01:02.400 --> 01:01:08.000 while playing xbox video games yeah winning people to christ while winning destiny 2 it's just it's 01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:14.560 crazy stuff so here's my question to you okay because the average person had just explodes well 01:01:14.560 --> 01:01:19.120 i talk about a lot on the podcast so if they listen regularly they've already exploded and it's old 01:01:19.120 --> 01:01:26.480 news but for you i want to ask this question what are the challenges what what what's the direction 01:01:26.480 --> 01:01:33.040 what advice because we are pioneering towards this digital church thing you obviously through the 01:01:33.040 --> 01:01:39.680 past hour have a very good understanding of discipleship and digital which are two of the 01:01:39.680 --> 01:01:45.920 things that i am building this foundation of digital church on i would love to know your knee-jerk reaction 01:01:45.920 --> 01:01:49.760 and would you be willing to think about it and come back and have another conversation later 01:01:49.760 --> 01:01:54.960 we can get to number two later but number one what's your knee-jerk reaction uh when i talk 01:01:54.960 --> 01:02:00.480 about a digital only expression of worship yeah okay so i've i've done a lot of thinking around this 01:02:00.480 --> 01:02:06.880 too um obviously obviously not as much as you yeah so but when it comes to this here's the thing 01:02:07.760 --> 01:02:14.400 the role of the preach right the role of the preach the role of that community i i still honestly do 01:02:14.400 --> 01:02:22.160 believe that that's a very important thing for the formation of our people so yes we need to be 01:02:22.160 --> 01:02:27.360 self-feeders yes we need to from the research really be focusing on reading the bible and being in 01:02:27.360 --> 01:02:35.680 community and all that stuff but that gathered expression that gathered expression is such an important 01:02:35.680 --> 01:02:42.720 piece of formation that honestly i don't you're right i don't think it has to be in person 01:02:43.440 --> 01:02:48.800 but there is and praise the lord we're protestants and we you know when it comes to communion it's 01:02:48.800 --> 01:02:53.440 just get your own juice and crackers and you know let's do communion together i think that's fine in 01:02:53.440 --> 01:03:00.240 fact our church my church here beulah it's 99 years old uh used to do radio preaching back in like 01:03:00.240 --> 01:03:07.200 the 30s 40s where it would be printed in the newspaper hey get your bread and your crackers right 01:03:07.200 --> 01:03:12.480 or your bread and your juice ready because we're no kidding this sunday over the radio yeah they were 01:03:12.480 --> 01:03:18.480 doing bring your own communion in like the 30s and the 40s exactly yeah that is a phenomenal story 01:03:18.480 --> 01:03:24.560 i love that yeah that's great so and my church here i mean over 60 church plants since origin so it's i 01:03:24.560 --> 01:03:31.280 mean i love multiplication i love being back here in canada but having said all that um yes the gathered 01:03:31.280 --> 01:03:37.520 experience is so important we can do it online i believe it can be i don't know i haven't heard a lot of 01:03:37.520 --> 01:03:43.520 expressions of it being done well really well online and i think the technology is still growing it's 01:03:43.520 --> 01:03:47.840 still advancing and there's that it's that tip i don't think the tipping point's been met yet on this 01:03:47.840 --> 01:03:54.800 piece on this piece who knows what the coronavirus is going to do um like literally i i just i really do 01:03:54.800 --> 01:04:01.520 wonder what the coronavirus is going to do to church online and how it's going to be moving how it's going to 01:04:01.520 --> 01:04:06.720 advance a lot of that too but all that to say i think the jury's still out in terms of what's the 01:04:06.720 --> 01:04:15.120 most effective way to do it but let's experiment so i'm not taking that as a roaring endorsement but i 01:04:15.120 --> 01:04:22.240 am taking that of hey it'll be interesting to see how far you get yeah here here's the reality is and 01:04:22.240 --> 01:04:29.040 and i love stadia for doing this is there hey we want to throw some research and development behind 01:04:29.040 --> 01:04:35.200 this and even the posture of when i work with when i talk specifically with churches that we're looking at 01:04:35.200 --> 01:04:42.800 to plant these it's it's hey we're experimenting come be part of the experiment with us actually i want to 01:04:42.800 --> 01:04:48.240 one of one of the pastors shot me an email and this this may be a bad thing but he he's like whether or 01:04:48.240 --> 01:04:54.400 not we're actually successful in this we feel like god's calling us to because where we fail and where 01:04:54.400 --> 01:05:00.960 we succeed someone else will come behind yeah and so the the posture of stadia which i love is we're 01:05:00.960 --> 01:05:06.880 going to experiment and we're going to learn through this process and if we're successful awesome the 01:05:06.880 --> 01:05:11.920 people behind us are going to have a better shot and somebody you know hate to say somebody's got to be 01:05:11.920 --> 01:05:16.720 first but i feel like honestly like i've i've been wanting to do this and i don't mean to overstate 01:05:16.720 --> 01:05:22.880 here but it's literally been 20 years i graduated from college in 1999 started a dot-com right there 01:05:22.880 --> 01:05:29.200 in the dot-com boom towards helping churches work through this stuff back in like in 2000 right after 01:05:29.200 --> 01:05:35.680 y2g man here oh yeah man and and it's like i'm trying to find somebody and uh man just the band 01:05:35.680 --> 01:05:42.080 dance dance dance back and forth between gigs and stadia's like hey come over here let's let's let's 01:05:42.080 --> 01:05:47.360 talk yeah and seeing how they've they've run with this has been exciting that's cool i hate to i hate 01:05:47.360 --> 01:05:51.840 to say it like i'm gonna call you out like i'm building some of the stuff around the principles of 01:05:51.840 --> 01:05:57.280 what you're doing and you're you're not showing me enough love back that's cool i love you i still 01:05:57.280 --> 01:06:01.680 want to have these conversations i still want to come to the conference in july um i'll have you 01:06:01.680 --> 01:06:07.760 speak at the conference in july this will be good that's awesome is it is it in canada you don't have 01:06:07.760 --> 01:06:13.120 to think is that oh wheaton oh that's awesome very very cool yeah well if we're allowed to travel who 01:06:13.120 --> 01:06:18.880 knows i yeah i was about to say there's a bunch of things happening but hopefully hopefully we can get 01:06:18.880 --> 01:06:25.440 it figured out then yeah um yes so listen seriously and and i'll turn the corner thank you for this 01:06:25.440 --> 01:06:34.080 podcast this has been uh in in a world of corona virus that is just inundating um the ability to 01:06:34.080 --> 01:06:40.080 laugh a little bit here to talk about things that aren't corona sensitive yeah um i hope i hope my 01:06:40.080 --> 01:06:45.920 audience who hopefully has a similar sense of humor as i do they seem to enjoy these things i hope they're 01:06:45.920 --> 01:06:51.040 enjoying this in a lot of the conversation so thank you for this uh just as we're landing the plane 01:06:51.040 --> 01:06:57.040 daniel any any closing thoughts in anything that that you want to say or or reference or hit on my 01:06:57.040 --> 01:07:03.760 church we live stream um the number one how i'm using how we're using the live stream and leveraging 01:07:03.760 --> 01:07:08.240 the live stream i really don't care if people watch it around the world the one thing i really care 01:07:08.240 --> 01:07:15.840 about is those in edmonton and using this as a front door and moving people from that to a 01:07:15.840 --> 01:07:21.520 gathered location so i do believe that church online can be leveraged and should be leveraged 01:07:21.520 --> 01:07:26.080 especially when the front door is your is instagram or for i don't even think the front door is your 01:07:26.080 --> 01:07:31.440 website anymore depending on the age it front doors it's your instagram account uh depending on the age 01:07:31.440 --> 01:07:37.680 or it's your live stream or you know for certain generations it's your website so uh leverage how do you 01:07:37.680 --> 01:07:45.760 leverage that as the new lobby to get people into community and saved and pointed toward christ 01:07:45.760 --> 01:07:50.480 and discipled so yeah i love it i love the work that you're doing and the thinking that you're doing 01:07:50.480 --> 01:07:55.440 toward this so thank you for doing that man awesome and as long as that front door leads 01:07:55.440 --> 01:08:01.120 into an intentional discipleship process that's utilizing online to make disciples i love everything 01:08:01.120 --> 01:08:05.840 that you just said uh and and so and and you're literally the guy that wrote the book so who am i to 01:08:05.840 --> 01:08:12.160 question that we're all about um you know the the no silver bullets you mentioned briefly and let's just 01:08:12.160 --> 01:08:16.560 let you tag on it what was the you've got a more recent book that that you published what gives the 01:08:16.560 --> 01:08:23.360 decent details on that yeah so it's called you are what you do and six other lies about work life and love 01:08:24.000 --> 01:08:30.240 so it's a book basically on the fact that the gig economy is here side hustling is it's not the 01:08:30.240 --> 01:08:37.120 questions move from have you heard of side hustles to what is your side hustles so it's just an increase 01:08:37.120 --> 01:08:44.480 it's a fast growing phenomenon and i address seven lies that have risen to the surface because of this 01:08:44.480 --> 01:08:53.680 gig economy and it's it's a fascinating take i believe on here's our world is changing this is the gig economy is 01:08:53.680 --> 01:08:58.640 affecting work it's affecting life it's affecting relationships and here are seven ways that it's 01:08:58.640 --> 01:09:05.200 doing that so it is a discipleship tool but first and foremost it really is a tool that i'm hoping 01:09:05.200 --> 01:09:11.200 that people would use toward evangelistic uh evangelistic means because it is that sense hey 01:09:11.200 --> 01:09:16.640 here's the you've heard it was said but now i say to you as it says you know matthew 5 with jesus so 01:09:17.200 --> 01:09:21.360 yeah that's kind of the premise of the book your listeners can definitely look it up if they want 01:09:21.360 --> 01:09:26.160 awesome we'll throw some links on the show notes to both the books of course no silver bullets as 01:09:26.960 --> 01:09:33.680 as well as the the six lies is what stuck with me yeah yeah yeah you are what you do yeah you are 01:09:33.680 --> 01:09:38.960 what you do which by the way i'm not gonna yeah it's a lie i mean i'm not going to show it to my 01:09:38.960 --> 01:09:44.080 wife because i don't want to have to relive that conversation so we're we are doing very very well 01:09:44.080 --> 01:09:48.480 so daniel thank you very much for your time uh we're going to wrap here for the church digital 01:09:48.480 --> 01:09:52.960 podcast audience out there thanks for listening hope you see you next time here at the podcast you have 01:09:52.960 --> 01:09:53.360 a good day