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 Episode 58 of the Church Digital Podcast, powered by Stadia Church Planning.

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 There's some really cool announcements coming out of Stadia here in the next week as we're

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 working towards how we, the Church Digital, and we, Stadia Church Planning, can come together

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 and help churches like you figure out how to do church online more effectively.

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 Not just the broadcast stuff.

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 Let's get past the broadcast.

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 The broadcast is a smokescreen.

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 It's the front door to something far more effective.

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 So keep your ears open for that, your eyes alert.

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 I don't know if that's the right kind of analogy there, but you get the idea.

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 Stay tuned.

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 We'll have something coming soon.

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 But here, let's get back to Episode 58.

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 I am excited about this episode.

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 So a lot of churches ask me, hey, Jeff, what's the end game in this season?

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 How can we do church?

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 Like, okay, now we're doing the broadcast.

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 What's next?

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 What's next?

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 And a lot of churches, I'm surprisingly so, a lot of churches have started onboarding all

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 of their small groups online, and that's exciting to me.

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 But it also begs the question on my side, hey, what's next?

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 What do we go to after we get the small groups in place?

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 And the question that I really want to dig into is, what does it mean for the church to

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 be on mission in this coronavirus season?

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 And so I started casually, I started asking some pastors, some friends, hey, what does

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 it mean to be on mission?

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 What do you think it is?

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 And a lot of them didn't have, like, solid answers.

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 I even went up to larger, you know, larger churches.

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 Hey, what does it think to be on mission?

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 Like, what's the purpose?

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 What's the why behind all this?

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 What's the goal?

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 What's the end game?

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 What can we expect and hold our people to in this coronavirus season?

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 How can we hold them accountable?

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 And I didn't get a lot of good answers until I started talking with Rob Wagner and Brian

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 Phipps from Kansas City area.

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 So Rob is with, was one of the leaders with KC Underground, a micro church, a house church

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 movement that's in Kansas City.

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 And Brian Phipps runs Disciples Made, which is a discipleship curriculum, a pathway that

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 that he's developing.

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 And the two of them work very closely as Disciples Made works with KC Underground and a number

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 of other churches.

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 But really, they were the first guys that when I asked the question, hey, what does it mean

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 for the church to be on mission?

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 Like, like they gave a solid answer back.

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 And I was like, hey, let's get together on a podcast.

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 Let's talk about this because the stuff, the heart of what they're talking about, we church

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 today, we need to hear.

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 And even as much as, as I with the podcast, I'm as much a student in this trying to figure

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 out because the, the, the roles have changed.

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 The playbooks are thrown out.

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 Nobody knows how to manage this coronavirus season.

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 And here in this podcast, I heard a non-technical solid answer for what it would mean for the church

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 to be on mission during this coronavirus season.

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 So once again, join on the podcast, Brian Phipps with Disciples Made, Rob Wagner with Kansas City

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 Underground, and myself, Jeff with the Church Digital, where I'm simply asking the question,

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 a complicated question, but I'm simply asking it.

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 What does it mean for the church to be on mission during coronavirus?

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 Okay, everybody, here you go.

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 So who can I go to, to figure these things out?

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 Who's willing to like, you know, just throw down?

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 And I'm like, oh, I've talked to the Casey Underground guys.

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 I love those guys.

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 Those guys are great.

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 And so that, I mean, that's really why I'm coming to you because I want to ask this question.

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 As a church, what does it even mean to be on coronavirus, on mission in the midst of coronavirus?

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 You guys tell me, what does it mean to be on mission?

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 Well, this is Rob Wagner, and I'm here with my buddy, Brian Phipps.

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 Brian, speaking on behalf of Disciples Made, and I'm speaking on behalf of the Kansas City Underground.

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 Here's what I'd say in response to that question about how to mobilize.

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 First of all, I would remind everybody that our God is unchanging.

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 Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

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 Heaven is not panicked.

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 Neither should we be.

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 Jesus is still seated on his throne.

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 He's not up pacing back and forth wondering about what he's going to do with coronavirus.

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 And I say that with laughter in my voice, not because I'm unaware of the horrible things that are happening.

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 It's actually a joy underneath.

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 Because Jesus is seated on his throne, we do have a foundation of joy and shalom.

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 Because Jesus is unchanging, that means his mission is unchanging.

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 And he told us to make disciples who make disciples.

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 And that mission doesn't go on pause.

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 We don't pause mobilization on that mission for anything.

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 And in fact, this crisis environment is actually a richer environment for that mission.

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 Because people are now living with a real awareness of eternal realities.

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 Life and death is literally right in front of them.

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 Usually, we can ignore that here in America.

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 Most of the time, we can live with the illusion of control in America.

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 Not anymore.

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 Most of the time, we can distract ourselves and keep ourselves busy running around back and forth.

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 Right now, a massive percentage of America is on lockdown.

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 And so, there's this quiet that, in the quiet, those soul needs come bursting up to the surface.

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 And the longing for authentic community.

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 I mean, that is literally the richest environment for Jesus' mission that I've seen in my entire lifetime.

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 I saw a picture on Instagram the other day of a pastor who went to go buy supplies at Walmart.

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 And of course, half the shelves were empty.

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 But you know what he noticed?

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 When he went to the book section of Walmart, where all the Bibles are, not one was left.

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 Wow.

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 They were all gone.

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 Right?

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 And so, that leads me to this.

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 Our identity as the church is also unchanging.

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 So, Jesus is the same.

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 The mission is the same.

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 And we're the same.

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 And we know the church is not a building.

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 It's a body.

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 The church is not a place or a program.

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 It's a people.

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 The people of God saved by the power of God for the purposes of God.

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 We know it's not an event.

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 It's about everyday people living out the mission of Jesus in every area of life, everywhere they go.

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 Now, the church has buildings.

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 It has places.

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 It has programs.

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 It has events.

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 But they don't define us.

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 So, in the New Testament, of course, the church met in the temple courts when they could and in homes.

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 But when the persecution started, the pandemic of persecution started, the church didn't slow down one bit when it came to disciple-making.

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 They kept meeting in homes.

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 And that micro-expression of the church multiplied all over the Roman Empire.

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 So, what we need to do right now is, first of all, reimagine the church as a decentralized network of smaller expressions of the church, of micro-churches or missional communities or whatever you want to call it.

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 And what the church is doing right now is realizing, okay, we can't, the buildings, the place, the program, the event, we don't have that piece anymore on the chessboard.

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 But that's okay.

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 Alan Hirsch, years ago, I heard him say, if you really want to learn to play chess, you should start by removing the queen.

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 And once you've mastered the game without the most powerful piece, then put the queen back in and see how good you are.

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 So, what Alan is saying is that the church building, the Sunday services, the program, that's our queen.

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 And we've been relying on it too much.

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 Well, now we're going to get to learn how to use all the other pieces on the board.

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 And I think that's exciting.

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 So, I just, I feel like we're in this incredible opportunity for the church to rediscover herself as a decentralized network, which I really think is the most primal definition of the church in the New Testament, and that we can make disciples in an unhindered way.

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 In fact, for Brian and I, we've actually seen an acceleration of disciple making.

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 So, I'm going to shut up for a minute, because I've been, I kind of slipped into preaching.

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 For such a time as this.

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 Yeah, that's a common theme here.

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 By the way, that'll be the second time Alan Hirsch gets quoted as a major point on this podcast.

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 I'd rather have 12 disciples than 1,200 consumers is another powerful.

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 Honestly, I have a running saying where, if I really like a quote, I would consider tattooing it on my body.

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 And so, that is now the second time I would consider putting Alan Hirsch's name somewhere on my body.

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 So, I'm sure Alan Hirsch is not listening.

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 But if I ever do meet him, I will, that will be the opening line.

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 I will watch him probably run away at that point.

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 So, very, very odd.

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 Hey, listen, there was so much there.

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 And the idea of decentralizing, and I'm sure we're going to get into that.

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 But I want to hand it over, Brian, just kind of opening any thoughts as you're hearing some of this.

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 You know, similar to Rob's.

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 I've been a pastor for 30 years, and, you know, I have a lot of relationships.

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 And so, just in the last little bit, I don't have to figure out all the stabilization questions of how do I get my church online, or how do I get my staff kind of redeployed to provide care and all the other things.

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 But I'm hearing all of my friends that I'm reaching out to just to see how they're doing, scrambling to figure that piece out.

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 And it makes me kind of realize there's two ways to answer your question.

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 How can the church be on mission during this time?

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 And my initial response is, well, the way it always should have been.

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 But what I'm finding is that most of the folks are kind of interpreting that question as, how do we maintain what we've been doing on a different medium?

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 Right. That's true.

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 And to me, that's a stabilizing question.

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 That's an essential question in order to keep doing what has been going on.

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 But if that question and those stabilizing questions are the only ones that are being asked, I believe the church will miss out on a huge opportunity to take mission to the next level.

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 By the next time the next coronavirus, you know, pops out, I think there's more to learn right now.

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 I think there's a different, potentially a better way, perhaps even a more biblical way to be on mission, which includes, you know, all of God's people.

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 As Rob said, it's everybody on mission together.

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 And I think the blueprint is there in the scripture is that what that's supposed to look like.

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 When you sent the questions to us, you talked about what does it mean for like staff to be on mission?

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 What does it mean for attenders to be on mission?

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 And that was kind of your breakdown of what the church is.

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 And I think the blueprints right in the scripture for what that's to look like.

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 This idea with Hirsch taking the queen off the board and the analogy of the queen being the thing of, you know, in the analogy, I'm assuming it's the major service component or it's the building component that really has been the crutch of this and really making everybody in ministry uncomfortable in this season.

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 Now, I typically, we do a lot of my ministry, and so I'm hearing from the online minister sides that, you know, pastors are like crashing the party and coming in, like thinking they know what they're doing and they don't know what they're doing.

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 Some of them have been really supportive.

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 Some of them have been like, get out of the way.

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 Let me do my thing.

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 So there's an interesting relational balance that I don't necessarily want to dive into in the podcast, but there's a lot of crowdedness kind of in the space of online as we're trying to figure out how to operate.

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 Walk me through here.

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 You said decentralized, you talk about removing the queen off the board, which alludes to, okay, there's other roles that the other pieces need to play, and maybe we're walking around playing with the queen and using that influence instead of really utilizing some of the others.

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 What are some ways that, and I don't even want to go practical, but even philosophical, like how could we get other parts involved in this?

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 We're stuck in this model of let's get the services going, let's broadcast, let's get consistency, and I'll even admit I'm the guy.

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 I'm the guy that's saying to a pastor, don't preach a 40-minute message, preach 40-minute messages, because that's going to engage better with online, and the flip side of that is maybe creating more of a consumerism model, hoping that they have some sort of discipleship structure in place to feed into.

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 Maybe they don't, maybe they don't, how do we utilize some of these other pieces today in coronavirus?

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 What's the strength of some of these other pieces today?

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 Okay, let me talk about, Brian and I, we can unpack, I think, two pivots that every church could make,

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 and then actually three practical strategies.

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 So pivot number one is pivot to small groups online harder than you're pivoting to streaming services online.

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 So more than great content, what people need right now is great community.

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 And so I understand, I've pastored in large churches for most of my adult life.

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 I understand getting the services online, that's a part of stabilizing, but I think it's not as important as moving whatever micro expressions of the church you have.

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 If it's Sunday school groups, if it's small groups, if it's missional communities, whatever you call it, moving those to an online platform like Zoom is actually the top priority.

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 Because fundamentally, the church is a family, and that family has to be embodied.

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 And right now, the only way to embody it is online.

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 But we are so blessed to be alive at this time, because the technology facilitates the community in a phenomenal way.

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 The second thing I would say then, the second pivot, is to pivot your current staff to the top priority being the equipping of the leaders

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 who are leading those micro expressions in the online space.

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 And what we'd like to just unpack for you is, you know, three practical ways of that happening.

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 How these pivots are being embodied here in Kansas City, both through Disciples Made and through the Kansas City Underground.

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 So, with the Underground, we're a network of micro churches in the city.

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 Kansas City Underground, we're just a year old.

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 We hit 19 micro churches this week, which is amazing.

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 And because we are a decentralized network of micros, all we had to do was upgrade our Zoom account.

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 And now, every micro church has access to Zoom.

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 And they are actually increasing, like they're doubling the amount of community and connection from what our usual rhythms are.

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 And last night, we met with our micro church family online.

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 And it was amazing.

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 The depth of conversation, the depth of Bible engagement, the accountability on people writing I will statements, like what the Spirit of God is saying to them right now.

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 And they're going to, they wrote I will statements here.

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 Here's how I will live it out.

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 You know, the gathering of prayer requests and praying over one another.

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 I mean, we were there for 90 minutes and it just flew by, you know.

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 And, and we've also seen that our equipping gathering, which is typically something we've done in person, where we gather all the missionaries and the leaders of the micro churches.

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 So, we typically gathered them in person for training, where we moved our equipping gathering online to Zoom.

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 And we had the highest attendance we've ever had.

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 We almost had 100% attendance of all of our leaders in the entire underground.

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 Wow.

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 And we were able to do the exact type of equipping that we do in person, because we could get people into breakout groups.

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 And we were able to open up the floor for people to speak and contribute and so forth.

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 So, just an analogy, I mean, it'd be like in a normal church, get all your small groups online, make that your top priority, take your current staff.

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 And every micro church leader in the underground has a coach.

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 So, it's like your staff now, each have four to six, however small groups you have, like their number one job is to coach the small group leaders, you know.

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 And I think what, what, what we're seeing is actually an acceleration of both new disciples and depth of community in our current communities by a factor of 10.

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 I mean, people are leaning in harder than they've ever leaned in, and they're feeling a sense of family deeper than they've ever felt it before.

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 Another practical thing that we're doing, and then I'm going to hand off to Brian, is we use a tool called Discovery Bible Study, which is a very simple form of Bible engagement that's built around open questions, open-ended questions, simple ones like,

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 what does this passage tell me about God, what does it tell me about people in general, what is it saying to me, and how could I practice that, and you write an I will statement.

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 And then the last question is, who could you share this with?

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 And we teach people to live like missionaries in their neighborhood, or whatever their relational context is, and when people start showing spiritual interest, invite them to a meal and a Discovery Bible study, right?

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 Well, right now, because of the pandemic, we've seen an explosion in Discovery Bible studies.

00:18:52.540 --> 00:18:53.880
 They're just being hosted online.

00:18:54.940 --> 00:19:00.720
 And this week alone, there's been four new Discovery Bible studies that were launched in the first two days.

00:19:01.840 --> 00:19:02.640
 What is today?

00:19:02.700 --> 00:19:03.720
 I don't even remember.

00:19:04.660 --> 00:19:13.040
 The first two days, there's been four Discovery Bible studies started, and the way our people are doing it is they'll, either through the Nextdoor app or through Facebook,

00:19:13.900 --> 00:19:18.400
 one person actually printed a letter and took it out to all their neighbors and put it on their doorstep.

00:19:18.540 --> 00:19:22.740
 They basically say, we're in a time of crisis, we need our neighbors like never before.

00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:28.160
 If you'd like to meet online at this time, here's the link, and we're just going to catch up on how we're doing.

00:19:28.740 --> 00:19:33.100
 And then we're also going to look to the words of Jesus to find comfort in this time.

00:19:33.580 --> 00:19:36.360
 And I'm not going to preach, we're going to have a conversation about it.

00:19:36.440 --> 00:19:37.940
 Here's the questions we'll discuss.

00:19:38.460 --> 00:19:42.020
 We're averaging a 90% success rate.

00:19:42.020 --> 00:19:47.020
 Like 90% of the people that are being invited are showing up to the Discovery Bible studies online.

00:19:48.220 --> 00:19:56.420
 That's strictly from like an email, a letter, a physical something like that, connecting with online.

00:19:57.280 --> 00:20:02.020
 And people are engaging with that, even without like the physical interaction.

00:20:02.200 --> 00:20:10.560
 They're digging in and having kind of, it sounds like life-altering conversations, or at least being open to an idea of a conversation about Jesus.

00:20:11.540 --> 00:20:20.800
 Like, how do you, so how do you empower people, because these are volunteers who are doing this, this isn't staff who are doing this.

00:20:20.800 --> 00:20:32.860
 So, like, how do you empower a person with the confidence and the wisdom to have that level of a conversation, to come up with the idea of, hey, like, let me share with my neighbor.

00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:34.780
 Let me share with people.

00:20:34.920 --> 00:20:36.400
 Let me do an idea like this.

00:20:36.460 --> 00:20:38.440
 How did you cast that vision to them?

00:20:38.940 --> 00:20:39.520
 I didn't.

00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:44.280
 If you say God did, I'm going to do like, you know, Jesus juke right here on the podcast.

00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:49.860
 No, but we've, we've been teaching our people these simple tools like Discovery Bible study.

00:20:50.020 --> 00:20:57.720
 What's great about Discovery Bible study is like, all you need is the, the Bible and the Holy Spirit and five questions.

00:20:58.600 --> 00:21:04.480
 And what, and we, and we can train people on how to do, how to facilitate a Discovery Bible study in about 15 minutes.

00:21:04.840 --> 00:21:09.860
 Like, we teach them things like, okay, don't, as the facilitator, don't over talk.

00:21:09.980 --> 00:21:11.060
 Don't start preaching.

00:21:11.660 --> 00:21:16.960
 Like, offer your idea, but make it a couple of sentences and give space for other people to share.

00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:26.280
 Another thing we'll say is, if someone starts talking about like Deepak Chopra and what he says about it, or Oprah Winfrey, just say, oh, we're just going to stay in this text.

00:21:26.500 --> 00:21:28.000
 Like, thank you for that observation.

00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:29.640
 Really appreciate it.

00:21:29.660 --> 00:21:33.520
 But let's look at what Jesus is saying in this text, you know?

00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:38.620
 So there's, you can train somebody simply in 15 minutes to do Discovery Bible study.

00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:46.660
 And then we, for example, we posted, like we've shared an example letter, you know, like, hey, here's the letter that,

00:21:46.660 --> 00:21:50.120
 um, Gary took around to his neighborhood.

00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:54.380
 And then here's the post that Bree put up on the Nextdoor app.

00:21:54.540 --> 00:21:55.640
 So just tweak it.

00:21:56.020 --> 00:21:56.900
 You know what I mean?

00:21:57.560 --> 00:21:59.240
 Um, and then they've got a coach.

00:21:59.660 --> 00:22:02.260
 So the coach is checking in with them online.

00:22:02.360 --> 00:22:03.100
 How'd that go?

00:22:03.500 --> 00:22:04.440
 Like, do you have questions?

00:22:04.540 --> 00:22:05.360
 How can I help you?

00:22:06.140 --> 00:22:10.160
 Um, and, and our equipping gathering is continuing online.

00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:13.920
 So they're continuing to get, uh, further training and so forth.

00:22:14.300 --> 00:22:18.780
 Ryan, I think it'd be great for you to talk about, like, what's happening with more deeper,

00:22:18.780 --> 00:22:20.460
 long-term disciple making.

00:22:20.680 --> 00:22:22.560
 We've continued that unhindered as well.

00:22:23.820 --> 00:22:24.220
 Yeah.

00:22:24.340 --> 00:22:27.320
 And it really, to me, gets to the heart of the question that Jeff asked there.

00:22:27.400 --> 00:22:29.600
 He's like, how do these people get the confidence to do that?

00:22:30.080 --> 00:22:33.920
 You know, I could add the words, where did they sense the permission to do that?

00:22:34.320 --> 00:22:40.400
 Where were they ever, uh, given a card that says you get to play, uh, spiritual influencer

00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:47.320
 now and not just, uh, spiritual recipient, um, you know, those are all loaded in.

00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:53.540
 And, um, you know, to me, the short answer is, um, through intentional disciple making,

00:22:53.540 --> 00:22:58.320
 that, uh, is leadership development, uh, on the back end.

00:22:58.560 --> 00:22:59.980
 Um, I'll say that a different way.

00:23:00.040 --> 00:23:06.720
 A lot of times we define, uh, leadership development as training to do a particular role within the

00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:08.400
 church, a volunteer role.

00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:15.020
 So our leadership development isn't a generic, how to become a more powerful spiritual influencer,

00:23:15.180 --> 00:23:20.840
 a servant leader, the way that Jesus led and taught his disciples to go from being, you

00:23:20.840 --> 00:23:26.560
 know, fishers of fish to fishers of people that would be the rock on which the church was

00:23:26.560 --> 00:23:27.040
 built.

00:23:28.080 --> 00:23:32.260
 Uh, we've kind of minimized this concept of leadership development down to here's how to

00:23:32.260 --> 00:23:33.320
 be a good youth leader.

00:23:33.520 --> 00:23:35.620
 Here's how to be a good small group leader.

00:23:35.740 --> 00:23:36.500
 Here's how to do this.

00:23:36.500 --> 00:23:38.960
 It's more utilitarian than holistic.

00:23:40.060 --> 00:23:44.560
 And so one big shift that I made about 10 years ago is I'm going to quit trying to define

00:23:44.560 --> 00:23:49.500
 how to, how people should lead and teach them to become dependent on the spirit for how to

00:23:49.500 --> 00:23:52.380
 lead through the spirit's influence in them.

00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:58.320
 And one of the big ahas 10 years ago was I cannot get that done on a weekly basis.

00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:04.500
 Small groups were great, but they were not great at transforming people to that level of

00:24:04.500 --> 00:24:08.280
 influence or, you know, some people are going to be that level of influencer because that's

00:24:08.280 --> 00:24:10.480
 just the way God's made on the entrepreneuristic.

00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:14.120
 They're, they're self-initiators, all these other things.

00:24:14.120 --> 00:24:20.120
 And, and yeah, I didn't want it to be an accidental, you know, you know, small percentage of people

00:24:20.120 --> 00:24:23.040
 that accelerated to that level of influence.

00:24:23.040 --> 00:24:30.400
 I thought, you know, we could easily hit 65, 75, 85% of these people that are following

00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:31.680
 Christ and help them do that.

00:24:31.740 --> 00:24:35.520
 A hundred percent, or a hundred percent, I believe the spirit has given the tools to do it.

00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:41.660
 But I think we can do better than the three or 4% that we're doing right now.

00:24:41.820 --> 00:24:43.940
 And so what I realized was that was a daily thing.

00:24:44.420 --> 00:24:49.420
 You know, Jesus didn't say, Hey guys, we'll meet on Mondays and we'll study the Torah and

00:24:49.420 --> 00:24:53.000
 grab a latte, talk for about an hour and a half, and then I'll see you next Monday.

00:24:54.340 --> 00:25:01.060
 Follow me and let's walk, you know, forgive the tone, but this is kind of a self critique.

00:25:01.060 --> 00:25:06.580
 You know, I mean, I, when I started to walk in a different way and realized I was not getting

00:25:06.580 --> 00:25:10.500
 done the things I wanted to get done, this has been a self critique, uh, since.

00:25:10.660 --> 00:25:18.620
 So I hope you hear that I've lumped myself into that, uh, the, the critique, um, Jesus did

00:25:18.620 --> 00:25:19.300
 it on a daily.

00:25:20.140 --> 00:25:25.560
 I knew there's no way in the world I could get people to engage in a daily, uh, like let's

00:25:25.560 --> 00:25:29.260
 meet Monday morning and then Tuesday morning and then Wednesday morning and then Thursday

00:25:29.260 --> 00:25:33.680
 morning and then Friday, uh, to do this thing called pursuing Jesus together.

00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:38.440
 Uh, and so I knew that there was going to be a synthesis required 10 years ago, a synthesis

00:25:38.440 --> 00:25:45.020
 required between online daily activity, uh, on purpose with a particular group of people,

00:25:45.160 --> 00:25:50.500
 eight to 12 smaller, if needed, I wouldn't go much bigger, a small group type of size that

00:25:50.500 --> 00:25:52.880
 was intentional in our daily development together.

00:25:53.020 --> 00:25:56.000
 And then intentional in our weekly gathering together.

00:25:56.280 --> 00:26:02.320
 And so disciples made really is a compositive for experiences that leverage that synthesized

00:26:02.320 --> 00:26:02.700
 effort.

00:26:02.700 --> 00:26:04.580
 It's a daily online interaction.

00:26:04.580 --> 00:26:09.820
 It's like you version and Facebook and group me all put together into one app.

00:26:09.820 --> 00:26:13.940
 It's our app that helps people read the scripture, engage scripture.

00:26:14.080 --> 00:26:17.580
 Like Rob said, you know, in the discovery Bible study, you're asking the questions, what is

00:26:17.580 --> 00:26:19.600
 Jesus teaching me and what am I going to do about it?

00:26:19.600 --> 00:26:25.780
 The one part, uh, that DBS offers the disciples made that does as well as those answers to

00:26:25.780 --> 00:26:30.140
 the, I will statements and I believe statements get recorded and your triad people actually

00:26:30.140 --> 00:26:32.820
 get to see that and hold you accountable to that.

00:26:32.820 --> 00:26:37.040
 And like on a Facebook app, they're, you know, commenting on it saying, I love this, man.

00:26:37.080 --> 00:26:37.780
 How did it go?

00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:41.920
 Tell me, I'm praying for you as you apologize to your daughter or whatever it is.

00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:47.860
 So this daily activity, and then they're reading, uh, chapters on spiritual influencing, uh,

00:26:47.860 --> 00:26:50.540
 to prepare them to really become better influencers.

00:26:50.540 --> 00:26:55.740
 And when we gather, uh, each week, uh, we're discussing those types of things as well as

00:26:55.740 --> 00:27:00.960
 the development that we're making in our life, as far as, uh, character formation is concerned.

00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:06.480
 And as far as understanding our, the way God's wired us to influence the world through the

00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:11.500
 gifts that he's given us and, and the calling he's given on us to bless our neighbors and,

00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:14.180
 uh, to just make a difference where we live, work, learn, and play.

00:27:15.080 --> 00:27:16.320
 And here's what's cool.

00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:21.500
 My, my, I had my meeting this morning at five 30, a hundred percent of the people were there.

00:27:21.660 --> 00:27:27.500
 We are completely unhindered because the activity, the daily activity happens online,

00:27:27.500 --> 00:27:29.140
 which has gone unhindered.

00:27:29.460 --> 00:27:33.340
 My particular leaders made group, uh, has been meeting online.

00:27:33.460 --> 00:27:38.080
 We've got, uh, folks, you know, folks from all over the country and even in Canada that

00:27:38.080 --> 00:27:39.860
 are a part of my leaders made group now.

00:27:40.440 --> 00:27:42.660
 And, uh, it's completely unhindered.

00:27:42.780 --> 00:27:46.620
 Even when I had localized groups that would normally meet in the coffee shop, I've done

00:27:46.620 --> 00:27:47.740
 that for 10 years here.

00:27:47.860 --> 00:27:52.860
 If an ice storm came to Kansas city, you hop on zoom and there's some tremendous advantages

00:27:52.860 --> 00:27:53.420
 to that.

00:27:53.420 --> 00:28:00.920
 So when we started to develop people in that way on the daily online and in person, either

00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:07.180
 online or, uh, you know, in real life, uh, virtual or real life, that's when the real

00:28:07.180 --> 00:28:09.580
 significant transformation started to happen.

00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:11.300
 That's when their confidence grew.

00:28:11.420 --> 00:28:16.900
 That's when their sense of permission, not just permission, but this is your calling.

00:28:17.100 --> 00:28:17.540
 Yeah.

00:28:17.660 --> 00:28:19.300
 It's your masterpiece mission.

00:28:19.640 --> 00:28:22.820
 This is, this is the reason you get up in the morning.

00:28:22.820 --> 00:28:25.820
 Now, uh, it's not like they need confidence.

00:28:26.120 --> 00:28:32.720
 All they need is Rob said is just that coach to just encourage them along the way, uh, to

00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:37.040
 kind of re bump up that, uh, that sense of confidence that they need it, that they, they

00:28:37.040 --> 00:28:38.520
 just want to, they're unleashed man.

00:28:38.580 --> 00:28:39.800
 And it's beautiful thing to see.

00:28:40.320 --> 00:28:43.860
 So here's, here's the tension that, that, that I feel.

00:28:44.080 --> 00:28:50.320
 Um, so Ed Stetzer is on the podcast here within the past month or so, Jeff, we need a third

00:28:50.320 --> 00:28:50.760
 thing.

00:28:50.800 --> 00:28:52.780
 Look, the weekend services is awesome.

00:28:52.780 --> 00:28:53.820
 It's serving his point.

00:28:54.280 --> 00:28:57.780
 Uh, you know, uh, Eric Geiger writes this book, simple church.

00:28:57.780 --> 00:28:59.820
 It just needs to be, you know, one more thing.

00:28:59.820 --> 00:29:02.300
 Let's boil it all down into, into small groups.

00:29:02.620 --> 00:29:08.360
 We're really kind of missing that, that next level, that deep Bible exposure, really missing

00:29:08.360 --> 00:29:12.280
 that, that, the thing that's really going to bring about disciple making.

00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:15.760
 So in an Ed's point, he's like, let's bring back Sunday school.

00:29:15.880 --> 00:29:19.440
 I don't know that Sunday school is the thing, but ultimately what Ed was, was pushing was,

00:29:19.560 --> 00:29:20.780
 was for the one more thing.

00:29:21.060 --> 00:29:22.320
 I bring on Daniel M.

00:29:22.360 --> 00:29:23.720
 Who's a friend of Ed.

00:29:24.160 --> 00:29:28.040
 Uh, you know, actually I think they both at one point worked that life way together and

00:29:28.040 --> 00:29:29.200
 involved in a number of things.

00:29:29.300 --> 00:29:32.880
 And Daniel's like, Hey, Jeff, discipleship's a, a destination.

00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:33.920
 It's not a process.

00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:37.240
 It's not going to, the one thing's not going to help you get there.

00:29:37.300 --> 00:29:38.700
 The third thing's not going to help you get there.

00:29:38.780 --> 00:29:44.680
 It's this general process and movement in a, in a general direction because you're never

00:29:44.680 --> 00:29:46.380
 actually get to the end of it.

00:29:46.440 --> 00:29:49.920
 There's no home plate on the, on the Rick Warren thing.

00:29:50.540 --> 00:29:54.200
 Um, but so we're in this mixed culture.

00:29:54.460 --> 00:29:56.460
 Churches have small groups.

00:29:56.460 --> 00:29:59.000
 They have these things that, that already exist.

00:29:59.300 --> 00:30:03.860
 Is, are, are we, are you advocating for a different thing?

00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:04.780
 Another thing?

00:30:04.940 --> 00:30:11.040
 How do we balance an existing church structure and to get to the point of, of what you're

00:30:11.040 --> 00:30:11.780
 describing?

00:30:14.300 --> 00:30:15.940
 I'll jump on this, Robby.

00:30:16.320 --> 00:30:20.440
 Um, this is one of the things I actually learned from Rob.

00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:21.540
 He articulated it.

00:30:21.620 --> 00:30:25.420
 I had already been, uh, kind of leveraging it, but he articulated it in a way that made

00:30:25.420 --> 00:30:32.820
 sense, you know, it's which one is the queen, which piece on your chessboard is the queen

00:30:32.820 --> 00:30:36.260
 and which ones are, are the supporting casts.

00:30:36.820 --> 00:30:42.980
 And for a lot of churches, the queen is the weekend service and other things like small groups

00:30:42.980 --> 00:30:48.060
 and staff and other things are supporting, uh, services to really make that happen.

00:30:48.060 --> 00:30:49.200
 And then that's okay.

00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:55.640
 You know, that's not, that's not a, necessarily a bad model, but, uh, what, what I had already

00:30:55.640 --> 00:31:01.060
 done as a discipleship guy at a, at a large church, as I was letting the weekend service

00:31:01.060 --> 00:31:06.660
 serve the disciple making efforts, uh, that was a place that I could invite people to, uh,

00:31:06.660 --> 00:31:10.340
 start leading a small group, not because that was the end zone, but because if they would

00:31:10.340 --> 00:31:15.940
 self-identify themselves as a leader, uh, I could put a volunteer coach, you know, to

00:31:15.940 --> 00:31:19.220
 be there, to be their support, their advocate, to be their resource.

00:31:19.780 --> 00:31:22.860
 Um, and then that person wasn't just there to provide that resource.

00:31:22.860 --> 00:31:27.760
 That person was there to see whether or not that person was ready to be discipled and

00:31:27.760 --> 00:31:29.760
 brought forward forward and further.

00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:36.280
 And so to me, uh, that's the queen or at the church where we were apart, uh, disciple

00:31:36.280 --> 00:31:42.620
 making was, was the queen and, uh, and the weekend service was the supporting staff to

00:31:42.620 --> 00:31:48.560
 basically gather a lot of people that we could identify and start to raise up and then kind

00:31:48.560 --> 00:31:52.880
 of, uh, remobilize in the various ways that that's been done.

00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:56.100
 And the spirit got to write that script and that's been powerful.

00:31:56.100 --> 00:32:02.200
 We've had people, we had a volunteer staff of over 40, uh, coaches and team leaders in

00:32:02.200 --> 00:32:03.720
 our, in our small group model.

00:32:03.720 --> 00:32:06.960
 We had people going out and starting 501 C threes.

00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:11.980
 I mean, it's a great tool, but it, to me, it's just all, I'll depend on which, how do you

00:32:11.980 --> 00:32:16.340
 prioritize, which, which part of the chessboard service, which, yeah.

00:32:16.900 --> 00:32:24.520
 You know, um, uh, there's a couple of things that triggered in my mind, Jeff.

00:32:24.520 --> 00:32:34.400
 One was, um, for Jesus, the top priority was his 12 and, and he gave the majority of his

00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:38.160
 life to develop 12 for three and a half years.

00:32:39.280 --> 00:32:44.480
 So it actually was the, the discipleship journey was actually limited duration journey.

00:32:46.060 --> 00:32:53.840
 Now he was sending the spirit, but there was a certain time of training that Jesus invested

00:32:53.840 --> 00:33:00.860
 in them so that they would then do the same thing with others and not be in this ongoing

00:33:00.860 --> 00:33:06.300
 codependent relationship with, um, a person or a program.

00:33:07.980 --> 00:33:13.760
 And I think until churches rediscovered, that is the primary thing, which is what Brian was

00:33:13.760 --> 00:33:14.280
 talking about.

00:33:14.380 --> 00:33:22.040
 You can actually use your weekend services as a fishing pond for disciple makers to find 12

00:33:22.040 --> 00:33:25.360
 and to begin to invest in them.

00:33:25.540 --> 00:33:30.620
 And, and one of our experiences, it's called followers made, it's a six month journey.

00:33:31.960 --> 00:33:37.720
 And, um, you're going to learn how to grow in character and calling, which is basically

00:33:37.720 --> 00:33:40.480
 fruit of the spirit and gifts of the spirit.

00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:45.860
 We're going to teach you the habits so that you know how to partner with the spirit to grow

00:33:45.860 --> 00:33:47.580
 in character and calling.

00:33:49.500 --> 00:33:53.460
 And we, we've structured it in a way where it's shared leadership.

00:33:54.400 --> 00:33:59.200
 So in the beginning I'm leading, but over time, everybody in this group is leading.

00:33:59.720 --> 00:34:03.560
 So we're meeting weekly, but it's not just me leading every week.

00:34:03.580 --> 00:34:05.340
 It's eventually everybody's leading.

00:34:05.660 --> 00:34:09.500
 So you're learning how to actually disciple others as you're being disciple.

00:34:10.220 --> 00:34:15.000
 And here's the crazy thing, Jeff, this thing's been running for seven years now in Kansas city.

00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:17.320
 We're averaging a 30% reproduction rate.

00:34:17.780 --> 00:34:22.120
 30% of the people who go through followers made actually make other disciples.

00:34:23.060 --> 00:34:30.060
 And for me, like when we were at a Westside family church, large mega church here in Kansas

00:34:30.060 --> 00:34:33.320
 city, like that was the most important thing happening at Westside family church.

00:34:33.520 --> 00:34:36.460
 Cause it was actually making disciples who could make disciples.

00:34:36.640 --> 00:34:39.800
 That is literally job one, according to Jesus.

00:34:40.020 --> 00:34:42.360
 And in the underground, it's the same thing for me.

00:34:42.820 --> 00:34:47.800
 Like we, everything we do is about raising up for us.

00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:51.740
 It's the birthright of every child of God to be a missionary and a disciple maker.

00:34:53.340 --> 00:34:54.520
 Tattoo that on your back.

00:34:55.680 --> 00:34:56.800
 And, and if.

00:34:59.940 --> 00:35:00.380
 Okay.

00:35:00.380 --> 00:35:01.300
 That was good.

00:35:01.660 --> 00:35:01.980
 All right.

00:35:02.040 --> 00:35:02.580
 Rob Wagner.

00:35:02.740 --> 00:35:03.680
 You're now on the list.

00:35:03.840 --> 00:35:06.980
 My wife will never let any of this happen, but you just made it with that.

00:35:07.080 --> 00:35:07.780
 So congratulations.

00:35:09.300 --> 00:35:14.640
 Jim Putman says this and it, I repeated this thousands of times since I heard him say it.

00:35:14.720 --> 00:35:16.420
 We don't just need the message of Jesus.

00:35:16.420 --> 00:35:17.360
 We need the methods.

00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:18.280
 Wow.

00:35:18.840 --> 00:35:21.500
 We can't improve on Jesus disciple making methods.

00:35:22.040 --> 00:35:27.640
 So one of the things I say to church leaders a lot is, um, if you want to begin the disciple

00:35:27.640 --> 00:35:35.720
 making journey, um, find your 12 and actually disciple them and then do it for a limited duration

00:35:35.720 --> 00:35:37.240
 amount of time like Jesus did.

00:35:37.320 --> 00:35:40.140
 And then they need to be unleashed to go make disciples.

00:35:40.140 --> 00:35:46.160
 So you have to show them how to do this in a way where they can do it, you know?

00:35:46.420 --> 00:35:53.500
 And, and it's actually, um, you know, these great disciple making movements that are exploding

00:35:53.500 --> 00:35:54.480
 around the world.

00:35:55.540 --> 00:35:58.100
 Most of them are not as educated as we are.

00:35:58.200 --> 00:35:59.560
 Many of them are illiterate.

00:35:59.680 --> 00:36:04.360
 Most of them don't have the access to financial resources that we have.

00:36:05.020 --> 00:36:13.400
 Uh, you don't need to be like educated, rich, and a super leader to do this stuff, you know?

00:36:13.760 --> 00:36:18.720
 And so, uh, I would encourage people if they're listening to this podcast and you're, you're

00:36:18.720 --> 00:36:24.580
 interested, you know, go to disciplesmade.com and you'll see a good overview of the different

00:36:24.580 --> 00:36:27.720
 intentional disciple making environments we've created.

00:36:28.280 --> 00:36:35.860
 Um, I feel like if, if churches can use the current structures as a fishing pond to train

00:36:35.860 --> 00:36:41.600
 disciple makers and make it become a disciple making factory, that's not dependent though.

00:36:41.600 --> 00:36:47.980
 It can't be dependent on going to the weekend service or attending, you know, a program.

00:36:47.980 --> 00:36:53.800
 It's got to be highly relational and reproducible by the average person because that's the way

00:36:53.800 --> 00:36:54.500
 Jesus did it.

00:36:54.940 --> 00:36:57.360
 Let's, let's spin it and get a little practical here.

00:36:57.520 --> 00:36:59.220
 This is, this is great stuff.

00:36:59.220 --> 00:37:05.060
 And the idea of, of the 12 utilizing the methods, uh, of, of Jesus towards that.

00:37:05.120 --> 00:37:05.700
 I love that.

00:37:06.180 --> 00:37:14.540
 Um, so I'm, I'm at a church, uh, hypothetically, I, I work with churches all the time that, that

00:37:14.540 --> 00:37:17.700
 are asking these questions and, and are, and are feeling this tension.

00:37:18.460 --> 00:37:23.500
 Um, programmatically mission models, they understand what we're talking about.

00:37:23.500 --> 00:37:25.400
 They, they, they understand that that's the desire.

00:37:25.660 --> 00:37:31.020
 They maybe even understand the biblical calling that that's obedience of Christ to, to do these

00:37:31.020 --> 00:37:31.360
 things.

00:37:31.580 --> 00:37:38.380
 I think more people recognize these, the, the disconnect here than I think I even realized

00:37:38.380 --> 00:37:39.280
 a couple of years ago.

00:37:39.380 --> 00:37:41.360
 They know where they're, they know there's a disconnect.

00:37:41.980 --> 00:37:48.680
 Um, they don't know how to take the step because oftentimes maybe it's a guy who's three or four,

00:37:48.680 --> 00:37:52.160
 you know, steps down the, the, the food chain.

00:37:52.500 --> 00:37:53.900
 Um, it's not the leader.

00:37:54.020 --> 00:37:56.740
 You're unable to, you know, get the influence up.

00:37:57.240 --> 00:38:03.540
 Um, or, or maybe there's a desire to with leadership, but the overall church, um, even the

00:38:03.540 --> 00:38:08.500
 staff, they're, they're not at, at a level, nevermind the people understanding the level of

00:38:08.500 --> 00:38:09.940
 being on mission that you're describing.

00:38:10.180 --> 00:38:13.020
 The staff don't even really understand that.

00:38:14.260 --> 00:38:16.820
 How do you take in this coronavirus season?

00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:24.580
 What steps can we take to maybe utilize this opportunity of coronavirus to change culture,

00:38:24.680 --> 00:38:25.700
 to take some steps?

00:38:25.940 --> 00:38:27.580
 What advice would you take?

00:38:27.640 --> 00:38:33.560
 Maybe a newbie church, a church that's been existing for a while, but wants to change culture.

00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:40.160
 How can they be intentional in this season now to take steps to make a better tomorrow?

00:38:40.180 --> 00:38:43.060
 For them, more aligned to what you're describing in scripture.

00:38:43.060 --> 00:38:44.340
 What do you guys think with that?

00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:50.180
 But in the terms of, of Jesus, he had, you know, what he knew when he was 30, uh, about

00:38:50.180 --> 00:38:54.680
 two and a half, three and a half years to plant a seed that would literally change the world.

00:38:55.020 --> 00:38:56.100
 So what did he do?

00:38:57.380 --> 00:39:05.480
 He went to Jerusalem, he, uh, did a huge, you know, uh, mailer, and he put up a big tent

00:39:05.480 --> 00:39:10.960
 and a great big, and wait a minute, you're laughing.

00:39:13.640 --> 00:39:25.780
 He went to the rural area, far away from Jerusalem, Galilee, and he found the least likelies, and

00:39:25.780 --> 00:39:29.080
 he poured kingdom DNA into their souls.

00:39:29.960 --> 00:39:36.380
 On purpose, as, as, uh, Rob said, with a limited duration, the only component that I would add

00:39:36.380 --> 00:39:39.620
 to what Rob said is he had a particular end zone in mind.

00:39:40.340 --> 00:39:47.040
 He had a defined set of, of criteria that he needed his, his disciples to have in order

00:39:47.040 --> 00:39:50.780
 to be graduated from, you know, you're no longer my disciples.

00:39:50.900 --> 00:39:52.060
 I now call you friends.

00:39:52.060 --> 00:39:54.980
 Like what is the gap between disciple and friend?

00:39:55.060 --> 00:39:56.840
 How do I know I've gotten here?

00:39:56.860 --> 00:40:02.500
 But he knew that he'd gotten them here, and interestingly, it was right as Peter, uh, made

00:40:02.500 --> 00:40:11.240
 his biggest, you know, blowout mistake, denying Jesus, Jesus comes back, reinstates him, and

00:40:11.240 --> 00:40:14.520
 then says on this, on you, buddy, I mean, take the lead.

00:40:14.660 --> 00:40:15.560
 It's on you now.

00:40:15.620 --> 00:40:16.300
 Feed my sheep.

00:40:17.380 --> 00:40:23.540
 And so, um, your question is, what would, what would they do?

00:40:23.780 --> 00:40:26.000
 I mean, a lot of people are looking for the great big shift.

00:40:26.500 --> 00:40:28.280
 Why in the world would you do a great big shift?

00:40:28.280 --> 00:40:31.320
 If Jesus didn't, Jesus just said, I'm going to start new.

00:40:31.520 --> 00:40:35.760
 So let me take it off of Jesus, take it back to where I was about 10 years ago.

00:40:36.060 --> 00:40:40.360
 I had gone to countless, like so many people that are watching this podcast have been to

00:40:40.360 --> 00:40:43.700
 countless conferences, uh, listen to podcasts.

00:40:43.800 --> 00:40:47.580
 They've watched, they've read books and the message that they've heard over and over and

00:40:47.580 --> 00:40:52.740
 over again, but not been able to properly step into is you need to develop leaders.

00:40:52.740 --> 00:40:54.120
 You need to develop leaders.

00:40:54.120 --> 00:40:55.360
 You need to develop leaders.

00:40:55.360 --> 00:40:56.540
 You need to quit doing it all.

00:40:56.620 --> 00:41:00.160
 You need to move from worker to equipper and then equipper to multiplier.

00:41:00.160 --> 00:41:04.920
 And I listened to that and I felt smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller.

00:41:05.580 --> 00:41:07.640
 Every year I went back and heard the same thing.

00:41:07.720 --> 00:41:11.360
 I had conviction that every one of those things, I went back to the church, but the plates were

00:41:11.360 --> 00:41:12.260
 going so fast.

00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:12.940
 What did I do?

00:41:13.180 --> 00:41:17.700
 I kept doing the work and not developing the leaders.

00:41:18.520 --> 00:41:21.380
 Well, there's a lot of meetings being canceled.

00:41:22.560 --> 00:41:24.380
 There's a lot of responsibilities.

00:41:24.540 --> 00:41:29.860
 There's a lot of travel time cut way down that you can now save and redirect and redeploy.

00:41:30.120 --> 00:41:35.180
 And I think, you know, whether it's our tools to develop leaders or someone else's tools,

00:41:35.340 --> 00:41:40.700
 there's a great set of resources out today that have never been there before to really start

00:41:40.700 --> 00:41:42.600
 developing spiritual leaders and influencers.

00:41:42.980 --> 00:41:44.120
 Now's the time to do it.

00:41:45.100 --> 00:41:47.520
 Like you've got two extra hours a week.

00:41:48.080 --> 00:41:48.720
 Do it.

00:41:49.120 --> 00:41:49.760
 Pick 12.

00:41:50.220 --> 00:41:51.520
 Pick it the way Jesus did.

00:41:51.660 --> 00:41:52.540
 Pray for those people.

00:41:53.040 --> 00:41:54.380
 He prayed at least overnight.

00:41:54.540 --> 00:41:58.480
 We ought to pray for at least two weeks if Jesus took, you know, took an overnight.

00:41:58.940 --> 00:42:00.320
 We ought to pray for at least two weeks.

00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:04.580
 And who are those people that he wants us to invest in and then invest in them and make

00:42:04.580 --> 00:42:10.220
 part of that investment into them be a requirement of them to help share the leadership burden

00:42:10.220 --> 00:42:11.100
 that you're carrying.

00:42:11.960 --> 00:42:12.980
 Like that's how it works.

00:42:13.060 --> 00:42:14.120
 That's the way Jesus did it.

00:42:14.160 --> 00:42:18.400
 He says, no, I'm going to go, you know, grab a cup of, grab a latte and study the Torah.

00:42:18.640 --> 00:42:21.140
 You're going to go with me to actually fish for people.

00:42:21.900 --> 00:42:23.620
 And he taught them a little bit.

00:42:23.680 --> 00:42:25.720
 Then he sent them out and then he brought them back in.

00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:29.400
 So I would, I would, here's the, here's the quick answer for that, Jeff.

00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:34.660
 The first thing that I did when I realized that, you know, my coronavirus kind of situation

00:42:34.660 --> 00:42:36.940
 10 years ago was I was no longer the lead pastor.

00:42:36.940 --> 00:42:38.200
 I was the discipleship guy.

00:42:38.420 --> 00:42:42.660
 And Jesus basically sat down in my car with me and said, you know, all those conferences

00:42:42.660 --> 00:42:46.180
 you've been to, you know, that guilt you experienced about not developing leaders.

00:42:46.280 --> 00:42:46.920
 Well, here's the deal.

00:42:46.980 --> 00:42:50.680
 If you don't develop leaders, I consider that what you've done is failure.

00:42:51.460 --> 00:42:52.640
 That Jesus is a gentleman.

00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:55.640
 He doesn't talk like that, but that's the way I received it.

00:42:55.820 --> 00:43:03.760
 And my type one Enneagram filter and, um, you know, for what it's worth, I've been told

00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:07.520
 I'm a one, but he really did.

00:43:07.520 --> 00:43:10.120
 And I was absolutely convicted to the core.

00:43:10.240 --> 00:43:13.060
 And you know, the first thing I did was I repented.

00:43:14.340 --> 00:43:16.740
 I repented for years lost.

00:43:20.100 --> 00:43:25.360
 Because I just did the work and I was the center of that work.

00:43:25.720 --> 00:43:28.660
 That work depended on me and that work fed me.

00:43:30.540 --> 00:43:32.140
 I know it changed other people.

00:43:33.440 --> 00:43:35.080
 But I had wasted time.

00:43:35.180 --> 00:43:37.920
 I could have been influencing thousands by that time.

00:43:37.920 --> 00:43:39.060
 And I was still in the hundreds.

00:43:40.060 --> 00:43:41.680
 So I actually had to repent.

00:43:41.680 --> 00:43:47.120
 And the second thing that I did, Jeff, the second thing I did is I admitted I didn't know how.

00:43:49.520 --> 00:43:53.500
 I had led seminars in my denomination about how to multiply.

00:43:53.500 --> 00:43:55.060
 But could you see that on my resume?

00:43:55.060 --> 00:43:57.220
 No, I added really well.

00:43:57.440 --> 00:43:59.520
 But I had not systemically multiplied.

00:43:59.520 --> 00:44:01.380
 And I had to get a new set of tools.

00:44:02.240 --> 00:44:06.520
 And I chose obedience over competency because competency wasn't cutting it.

00:44:07.320 --> 00:44:18.460
 And out of that has evolved an entire ministry because we had a waiting list at Westside for people wanting to get in to these groups because they heard the stories of people that came through them.

00:44:18.980 --> 00:44:31.020
 The people that committed to the longer duration thing, the people that committed to the daily activity and habits and community on purpose to become more spiritual influencers.

00:44:31.520 --> 00:44:34.100
 So that would be my thing.

00:44:34.320 --> 00:44:35.260
 You know, I had to repent.

00:44:35.400 --> 00:44:36.620
 I had to admit I didn't know.

00:44:37.160 --> 00:44:40.760
 And I had to take a radically different approach.

00:44:44.520 --> 00:44:46.340
 Mine's going to be very similar to Brian's.

00:44:46.540 --> 00:44:49.860
 I mean, number one, I would say start with extraordinary prayer and fasting.

00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:57.880
 I'd invite your whole church to the season of extraordinary prayer.

00:44:58.080 --> 00:44:59.380
 Here's how we define it.

00:45:00.100 --> 00:45:01.960
 What's your prayer life look like right now?

00:45:02.640 --> 00:45:03.220
 Add one.

00:45:04.240 --> 00:45:05.160
 Then it's extraordinary.

00:45:05.680 --> 00:45:08.040
 It might be a new rhythm or a new type of prayer.

00:45:08.700 --> 00:45:09.500
 And then fasting.

00:45:09.860 --> 00:45:12.020
 And fasting increases our focus on Jesus.

00:45:12.340 --> 00:45:14.020
 It's like a spiritual speed bump.

00:45:14.640 --> 00:45:21.980
 I would call, if I was in a church right now and I was a pastor, I'd be calling the whole church to some kind of form of extraordinary prayer and fasting.

00:45:22.900 --> 00:45:26.240
 And a big part of that would be to do exactly what Brian is saying.

00:45:26.240 --> 00:45:28.760
 Like, Lord, what do we need to repent of in this time?

00:45:29.860 --> 00:45:30.980
 Where's our unbelief?

00:45:31.580 --> 00:45:34.060
 Where have we missed you and haven't joined you?

00:45:35.560 --> 00:45:40.140
 Secondly, I would be really focused on organizing.

00:45:40.380 --> 00:45:44.200
 If the church is already organized in groups, I would fortify that.

00:45:44.320 --> 00:45:45.080
 I would move it online.

00:45:45.420 --> 00:45:47.460
 If it's not, I would immediately do that.

00:45:48.280 --> 00:45:53.880
 If I have to start by using a phone tree to get everybody there, then I'd use that.

00:45:54.080 --> 00:45:56.740
 You know, but I'd get them to an online environment in groups.

00:45:57.520 --> 00:46:04.080
 And then the leaders of those groups, I would ask whatever staff, it was me and two staff or whatever.

00:46:04.080 --> 00:46:06.300
 I'd say, we're going to do what Jesus did.

00:46:06.300 --> 00:46:09.400
 And those group leaders, they're going to be our 12.

00:46:10.360 --> 00:46:14.900
 And in this next season, we're going to invest in them.

00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:21.760
 So, the leaders of the group should basically be asking them to do, to meet with their small group, but then also to meet with you.

00:46:22.660 --> 00:46:27.160
 And I would take them through something like followers made that we developed or something like rooted.

00:46:27.420 --> 00:46:35.420
 It's like, here's a journey where we're going to teach you spiritual habits that lead to outcomes and character and calling, like fruit of the spirit, gifts of the spirit.

00:46:35.920 --> 00:46:45.400
 And I would be training them to say, and really, eventually, you need to know, I really expect you to be leading others to do the same thing I'm doing with you.

00:46:46.660 --> 00:46:51.980
 And then in small groups, I would probably just have them do something really simple like discovery Bible study.

00:46:53.560 --> 00:47:01.540
 Rather than some kind of heavy-handed curriculum, because that form of Bible engagement is very empowering to God's people.

00:47:01.540 --> 00:47:06.160
 And it teaches simple principles like obedience and reproduction, you know.

00:47:07.660 --> 00:47:10.360
 So, that's what my game plan would be looking like.

00:47:10.460 --> 00:47:17.220
 Extraordinary prayer and fasting, getting everybody into a group online, and then developing those leaders.

00:47:17.840 --> 00:47:21.240
 Those become the people that I'm discipling or my other staff are discipling.

00:47:21.480 --> 00:47:23.380
 And you know what would be happening then?

00:47:23.500 --> 00:47:25.900
 You would have extraordinary prayer and fasting as your foundation.

00:47:26.140 --> 00:47:28.300
 You'd be making disciples and developing leaders.

00:47:28.960 --> 00:47:30.660
 Sounds like mobilizing for mission.

00:47:35.480 --> 00:47:39.940
 For those on the audio podcast, he literally just dropped the mic.

00:47:40.100 --> 00:47:41.660
 Like, not literal, but imaginary.

00:47:41.780 --> 00:47:42.440
 That was awesome.

00:47:42.600 --> 00:47:43.300
 I appreciate that.

00:47:43.360 --> 00:47:43.780
 Really good.

00:47:44.440 --> 00:47:51.620
 From a practical standpoint, because I know, like, and obviously Disciples Made, great curriculum, plenty of others.

00:47:51.740 --> 00:47:52.660
 Rudy, Rudy, you mentioned.

00:47:52.880 --> 00:47:56.660
 I know there are others out there, and I appreciate some of the openness, even on that.

00:47:57.160 --> 00:48:01.220
 And by disciplesmade.com, which else website?

00:48:01.900 --> 00:48:03.440
 Com, disciplesmade.com.

00:48:03.840 --> 00:48:05.120
 Yeah, definitely check that out.

00:48:05.120 --> 00:48:13.360
 I'm just curious, like, do you recommend, like, a one-to-three, one-to-one, one-to-six, like, leader to students?

00:48:13.640 --> 00:48:16.520
 What, you said 30% success rate.

00:48:16.660 --> 00:48:23.640
 So, like, how do you structure the whole meeting and gathering part of the training?

00:48:23.740 --> 00:48:25.960
 What are your, some recommendations or learnings there?

00:48:27.240 --> 00:48:31.260
 The best groups are anywhere between, you know, 8 to 12.

00:48:31.900 --> 00:48:33.660
 Kind of the Jesus size is awesome.

00:48:34.900 --> 00:48:42.360
 And then what we do, the way we structure it is we actually divide those, or subgroup those groups into what we call triads.

00:48:42.900 --> 00:48:48.420
 I know Ravi Gulati uses the term D groups, and other people do as well, or subgroups.

00:48:48.420 --> 00:48:49.440
 I call them triads.

00:48:50.360 --> 00:48:58.940
 You know, we want people to develop the method or the rhythm of having the one-on-one time with God, the one-on-three time where you're the most vulnerable.

00:48:59.200 --> 00:49:05.380
 Like, that's where ultra-transparency is developed and required in a disciple's life.

00:49:05.420 --> 00:49:08.740
 And then the one-on-12, the team that you're on mission together with.

00:49:09.100 --> 00:49:10.400
 So, it's 8 to 12.

00:49:10.540 --> 00:49:12.300
 You could do smaller if you wish.

00:49:12.360 --> 00:49:13.740
 I've been groups of three before.

00:49:15.740 --> 00:49:18.820
 But, you know, and it only had one triad, of course.

00:49:18.820 --> 00:49:22.760
 But normally, I have groups of 12 or 13 that have four triads.

00:49:22.860 --> 00:49:24.400
 So, we get it all together in one.

00:49:24.500 --> 00:49:28.520
 And it's a weekly meeting for our followers made and leaders made.

00:49:28.620 --> 00:49:30.620
 It's a weekly meeting of about 90 minutes.

00:49:31.960 --> 00:49:34.780
 And you spend about half of that time in your triad.

00:49:35.400 --> 00:49:37.640
 And then the rest of the time is a whole group.

00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:40.380
 And everybody's been reading the same Bible passages.

00:49:41.020 --> 00:49:45.500
 And then we have extra-biblical reading, like other books that are speaking into it.

00:49:46.120 --> 00:49:53.300
 And you're basically discussing each week a primary habit that you're working on.

00:49:53.380 --> 00:49:54.540
 We call it habit to outcomes.

00:49:55.180 --> 00:50:00.320
 And then kind of the big idea for the week from the reading, along with your scripture readings.

00:50:01.280 --> 00:50:02.280
 Clean, simple.

00:50:03.280 --> 00:50:06.940
 So, that's 90 minutes, 60 minutes total time.

00:50:07.060 --> 00:50:08.200
 I'm bad at math right here.

00:50:08.440 --> 00:50:14.720
 And then in the app, like your other habits, you're like reporting in on the app.

00:50:15.160 --> 00:50:18.000
 And there's a dashboard so you can see how you're doing.

00:50:18.480 --> 00:50:21.360
 And then you're able to communicate back and forth through the app, too.

00:50:21.500 --> 00:50:25.500
 So, you can comment on my journaling, on my Bible reading.

00:50:25.680 --> 00:50:27.060
 Like, hey, Brian, I saw that.

00:50:27.160 --> 00:50:28.120
 I'm praying for you, brother.

00:50:28.800 --> 00:50:30.240
 Can't wait to see you on Tuesday.

00:50:30.380 --> 00:50:31.620
 We'll talk about how that went.

00:50:32.200 --> 00:50:32.360
 You know?

00:50:32.420 --> 00:50:36.260
 So, there's online interaction that's supporting the weekly gathering.

00:50:36.700 --> 00:50:40.580
 And you're practicing your daily habits and reporting those in.

00:50:41.960 --> 00:50:45.980
 Another thing it does, Jeff, is that we have minimum requirements of those habits.

00:50:45.980 --> 00:50:48.980
 Like, you have to read so often and journal so often.

00:50:49.320 --> 00:50:55.440
 Because we believe in order to hear from and obey the Spirit, to obey Jesus, you have to do that.

00:50:55.500 --> 00:50:56.820
 That's how he communicates with us.

00:50:56.980 --> 00:51:05.280
 And so, the app actually will record your stats as compared to the minimal requirements.

00:51:05.420 --> 00:51:07.380
 So, some people are below 100%.

00:51:07.380 --> 00:51:08.400
 Some people are above.

00:51:08.680 --> 00:51:13.720
 And group leaders and even the church admins, if you subscribe to this app as a church,

00:51:13.720 --> 00:51:18.300
 the church admin who creates these different groups and appoints groups leaders to them,

00:51:18.400 --> 00:51:24.520
 can actually see the success of each individual and each triad and each group in their church.

00:51:24.580 --> 00:51:25.820
 They can't see the actual journals.

00:51:25.980 --> 00:51:28.780
 We've put a pretty hard line, a really hard line between that.

00:51:29.080 --> 00:51:30.180
 But they can see the stats.

00:51:30.340 --> 00:51:38.360
 They can coach the group leaders in helping people develop proper accountability to get us to those goals

00:51:38.360 --> 00:51:41.600
 of people being able to hear from and obey the Spirit of God.

00:51:41.600 --> 00:51:43.660
 So, it's a pretty robust tool.

00:51:44.660 --> 00:51:45.620
 I love that.

00:51:45.720 --> 00:51:47.280
 And the reporting actually opens up.

00:51:47.340 --> 00:51:49.600
 I wasn't thinking about this question, but you just said reporting.

00:51:50.120 --> 00:51:51.840
 Because coupled with reporting is accountability.

00:51:52.200 --> 00:51:59.720
 Because reporting is only as good as the ability for you to use that information to hold people accountable.

00:52:00.120 --> 00:52:02.300
 So, we're in a disciple-making process.

00:52:02.820 --> 00:52:04.640
 I am leading 12 others.

00:52:05.900 --> 00:52:09.060
 And there may be some triads and breakups in between with subgroups.

00:52:09.060 --> 00:52:09.400
 That's cool.

00:52:09.400 --> 00:52:13.280
 But at the end of the day, one's overseeing some who's overseeing some.

00:52:14.660 --> 00:52:18.540
 What does accountability look like?

00:52:18.800 --> 00:52:21.860
 Because now I'm not working with staff necessarily.

00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:26.820
 I may be working with volunteers who have jobs, who are busy, who have kids, who have science fair projects.

00:52:27.180 --> 00:52:29.620
 And there's plenty of distractions in the world.

00:52:29.620 --> 00:52:36.980
 Even in coronavirus season, there may be less distractions, but we still find ways to get sucked into Zoom or whatever's on Netflix.

00:52:37.520 --> 00:52:39.740
 Disney Plus is rolling out major motion pictures.

00:52:40.240 --> 00:52:42.540
 Like, there's distractions still among us, right?

00:52:43.140 --> 00:52:45.680
 So, what does accountability look like?

00:52:45.700 --> 00:52:46.700
 How do we handle that?

00:52:46.880 --> 00:52:49.520
 What are some recommendations or learnings that you would suggest?

00:52:51.140 --> 00:53:03.580
 Our working definition of accountability and disciples made is encouraging and empowering people in your triad to keep the goals that Jesus has given you.

00:53:04.520 --> 00:53:11.940
 Like, if Jesus has said, go and apologize, our accountability is to help you do that and help you accomplish it well.

00:53:12.740 --> 00:53:17.980
 Like, Jesus is going to give you goals on a daily, on a quarterly or an annual basis.

00:53:18.520 --> 00:53:21.740
 Accountability is the support and encouragement you need to accomplish those goals.

00:53:22.680 --> 00:53:28.980
 And typically, that gets, that has kind of a positive, an offensive play and a defensive play.

00:53:29.040 --> 00:53:30.000
 It's a lot like football.

00:53:30.540 --> 00:53:39.860
 You know, our Kansas City Chiefs, Super Bowl champions, 2020, have an incredible offense.

00:53:40.400 --> 00:53:42.900
 Hey, we may never play football again.

00:53:42.900 --> 00:53:45.280
 So, you may have that multiple years.

00:53:46.100 --> 00:53:48.680
 Please never, ever say that again.

00:53:48.820 --> 00:53:50.820
 It's the most discouraging thing I have heard.

00:53:51.020 --> 00:53:52.680
 It's worse than the coronavirus, Jeff.

00:53:52.740 --> 00:53:53.260
 Stop that.

00:53:54.280 --> 00:53:55.600
 But think about this.

00:53:56.000 --> 00:53:57.180
 They had the same offense.

00:53:57.380 --> 00:54:01.640
 Actually, they had a better offense perhaps the year before because they didn't have a defense.

00:54:02.180 --> 00:54:03.240
 They didn't win the Super Bowl.

00:54:03.360 --> 00:54:04.080
 They didn't even get in.

00:54:04.240 --> 00:54:05.560
 They didn't even get to the Super Bowl.

00:54:05.640 --> 00:54:13.260
 They got beat by Brady in the quarterfinals because the defense could not stand up against them.

00:54:13.620 --> 00:54:15.300
 And we need defense and accountability.

00:54:15.300 --> 00:54:26.660
 But what I've seen or what I experienced at least all the way up until about the last 10 years when I met a guy named Dan Sutherland who provided the best accountability I've ever experienced in my life.

00:54:27.020 --> 00:54:28.840
 And it was the most helpful thing.

00:54:29.200 --> 00:54:38.100
 Every accountability that I had signed up prior to that was a group I went to that made sure I wasn't doing this and I wasn't doing this and I wasn't doing this.

00:54:38.720 --> 00:54:40.260
 To me, that's the defensive portion.

00:54:41.160 --> 00:54:44.280
 You only need to rely on your defense if your offense isn't growing.

00:54:44.960 --> 00:54:49.100
 And the better your offense, the less your defense has to be on the field and work.

00:54:49.660 --> 00:54:56.700
 And so that's why we have kind of turned accountability to be more about what's Jesus teaching you and how do we help you get there.

00:54:56.760 --> 00:55:01.120
 I believe if we get accountability down, we win.

00:55:02.500 --> 00:55:12.020
 Like these are the hardest conversations to have and a lot of what we do is we coach leaders in our groups to teach people how to hold each other accountable.

00:55:12.200 --> 00:55:16.180
 I don't want to, as a group leader, to be responsible for 12 people.

00:55:16.300 --> 00:55:25.620
 As a group leader, I want to be responsible to help every one of these triads learn to hold each other accountable so that it's a team effort, not a team captain effort.

00:55:26.360 --> 00:55:30.340
 And so we've created what we call a multi-phase accountability conversation.

00:55:30.340 --> 00:55:31.800
 It starts with encouragement.

00:55:31.800 --> 00:55:35.220
 It moves to entreating and then finally enforcing.

00:55:35.360 --> 00:55:39.480
 And a lot of accountability is no conversation in force.

00:55:40.020 --> 00:55:41.040
 And then there's hurt feelings.

00:55:41.140 --> 00:55:42.420
 There's lost relationships.

00:55:42.420 --> 00:55:46.220
 So we're really trying to coach people into effective accountability.

00:55:46.460 --> 00:55:51.620
 And those three phases of accountability, encouragement is phase one.

00:55:52.060 --> 00:55:53.480
 So, again, you stay on the offense.

00:55:53.600 --> 00:55:55.600
 It's like, hey, this is what Jesus said to you.

00:55:55.980 --> 00:55:56.840
 And, man, how's it going?

00:55:56.940 --> 00:55:57.540
 We're for you.

00:55:57.600 --> 00:55:58.040
 We're praying.

00:55:58.180 --> 00:55:58.940
 You can do this.

00:55:59.080 --> 00:56:04.560
 You know, the power of the Holy Spirit, the same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead is at work in you.

00:56:04.560 --> 00:56:05.180
 You stay there.

00:56:05.400 --> 00:56:08.360
 If someone's dragging their feet, then you get to the entreat.

00:56:08.360 --> 00:56:12.420
 Like, no, you said you needed to apologize to your wife, and you haven't done that yet.

00:56:13.160 --> 00:56:15.840
 But this is really important, you know.

00:56:16.040 --> 00:56:22.160
 And then the enforce is when it's like, man, we've prayed with you.

00:56:22.640 --> 00:56:24.080
 We've encouraged you.

00:56:24.760 --> 00:56:27.000
 You're not in a right relationship with your wife.

00:56:27.060 --> 00:56:30.560
 And you haven't been willing to apologize even though you're mistreating her.

00:56:30.980 --> 00:56:32.480
 You need to go do this.

00:56:33.200 --> 00:56:34.520
 And Jesus told you to.

00:56:34.600 --> 00:56:36.160
 And you said it was Jesus' idea.

00:56:37.360 --> 00:56:40.880
 I thought I'd just talk through that because that's kind of the tone of it.

00:56:41.520 --> 00:56:45.680
 And we're teaching people to, like Brian said, don't wait until you get to the enforced stage.

00:56:45.700 --> 00:56:46.400
 That's horrible.

00:56:46.840 --> 00:56:52.380
 And if you practice the first two phases, you hardly ever have to get to the third phase.

00:56:52.540 --> 00:56:54.340
 It hardly ever happens, you know.

00:56:54.740 --> 00:56:59.500
 The other thing I would say that's really important, Jeff, is how people get invited into these experiences.

00:57:00.600 --> 00:57:05.020
 It's a high challenge, high investment invitation.

00:57:05.960 --> 00:57:10.840
 You know, so, you know, Jesus, he looked at these guys and said, leave your nets.

00:57:11.960 --> 00:57:13.260
 Like, come follow me.

00:57:14.260 --> 00:57:19.020
 But they knew because of the rabbinical culture that it was going to be this high investment.

00:57:19.680 --> 00:57:26.080
 Like when a rabbi asked you to be their student, it was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:57:26.220 --> 00:57:29.760
 Like, this is huge, you know.

00:57:29.900 --> 00:57:38.960
 And so what we do is before we invite people into these experiences, like what Fowler's made, we'll have them read the book, Not a Fan, by Kyle Eidelman.

00:57:39.620 --> 00:57:42.600
 And then we get together for what we call an information huddle.

00:57:43.280 --> 00:57:46.060
 And we'll discuss the book and did it resonate with you.

00:57:46.120 --> 00:57:48.220
 And then we lay out the commitments very clearly.

00:57:49.240 --> 00:57:50.120
 Like, here's what it means.

00:57:50.160 --> 00:57:54.660
 Like, you're going to be doing, like what Fowler's made, you're going to be reading the Bible five days a week, you know.

00:57:54.660 --> 00:58:00.880
 And you're going to be doing so many journal entries and you're committing to learn the blessed rhythms and practice those.

00:58:01.000 --> 00:58:06.240
 You're committing to do this, you know, you're going to read these three books over the next six months.

00:58:07.040 --> 00:58:08.160
 Here's the reading plan.

00:58:08.300 --> 00:58:12.960
 So, you know, how much, so we're very clear about spelling out this is what the commitment is.

00:58:13.000 --> 00:58:14.220
 And then we tell them, go and pray.

00:58:14.880 --> 00:58:17.640
 I mean, you need to ask Jesus if he's asking you to do this.

00:58:18.220 --> 00:58:19.300
 And then we're committing.

00:58:19.540 --> 00:58:22.180
 So I'm not asking you to do this for me.

00:58:22.180 --> 00:58:24.060
 Is Jesus asking you to do this?

00:58:24.480 --> 00:58:28.600
 If so, then we're all going to help each other do what Jesus has asked us to do.

00:58:29.840 --> 00:58:35.980
 And so when you invite that way, it brings so much clarity.

00:58:36.980 --> 00:58:44.040
 When this kind of experience fails, when people make it like, hey, are you going to be free?

00:58:44.280 --> 00:58:46.880
 Like, would you be free on Thursdays if we did a thing?

00:58:47.620 --> 00:58:52.320
 Like, where 12 of us got together and we're like, we'll kind of learn how to be disciples.

00:58:52.900 --> 00:58:56.640
 And, you know, like they come to the info meeting and it's like, here's what we're going to do.

00:58:56.680 --> 00:59:00.040
 And at the end of this thing, you're going to be ready to teach other people to do this.

00:59:00.040 --> 00:59:05.320
 And we're asking you to ask God if he's calling you to do this, go pray about it for a week and then sign this commitment.

00:59:06.520 --> 00:59:10.080
 You have a lot less problems with accountability stuff.

00:59:10.620 --> 00:59:11.860
 Start right, stay right.

00:59:12.140 --> 00:59:15.940
 Like, how you start it sets the tone for the whole journey.

00:59:16.680 --> 00:59:28.160
 And like Jesus, and this is the last thing I know we got to wrap up, like when people are inviting others to join, we tell them to pray and fast for a couple of weeks about who you're inviting.

00:59:29.100 --> 00:59:36.420
 Like, Jesus spent a whole night in prayer saying, Father, I've had hundreds or even thousands of people that have been kind of hanging around.

00:59:36.540 --> 00:59:37.760
 They're curious about me.

00:59:37.960 --> 00:59:45.120
 They're, you know, like show me the 12 faces, put a light bulb above the 12 people you're inviting me to go on this journey with me.

00:59:46.380 --> 00:59:50.760
 And we tell those who are kicking off, if ours may, do the same thing.

00:59:51.080 --> 00:59:58.260
 A lot of people, when I share that kind of front end process, go, none of our people will sign up for that.

00:59:58.860 --> 01:00:00.620
 And what we found is quite the opposite.

01:00:00.760 --> 01:00:06.900
 The people that have stepped up and chosen to lead according to that recipe are blown away by the results.

01:00:07.500 --> 01:00:09.920
 Here's what I've learned because of that.

01:00:10.260 --> 01:00:23.460
 I have learned that people recognize that if they really want to see a big categorical difference in their spiritual formation, they need to make a significant spiritual investment.

01:00:24.080 --> 01:00:27.540
 Like if somebody came to me and said, buddy, I've got a whole new CrossFit plan.

01:00:27.720 --> 01:00:29.000
 You don't have to get out of bed.

01:00:30.780 --> 01:00:41.820
 Once a week, you just kind of put your hand toward our gym and read our manual and then sit in a small group.

01:00:42.360 --> 01:00:42.700
 Sorry.

01:00:42.840 --> 01:00:50.120
 I mean, again, and they've been told that that's going to give them the CrossFit result.

01:00:50.280 --> 01:00:50.720
 Yeah.

01:00:50.820 --> 01:00:58.420
 If you just come to the CrossFit gym once a week, I'll give like a little talk about how you could be, your body could be amazing.

01:01:00.620 --> 01:01:06.220
 Everybody knows that if you want to see a significant change, you've got to make a significant investment.

01:01:06.440 --> 01:01:13.500
 And I believe that the people of God are waiting for a leader to step up and invite them into something like that.

01:01:13.880 --> 01:01:18.780
 There are leaders that I've invested in that thought, man, nobody will ever follow me into this.

01:01:18.840 --> 01:01:23.940
 And I said, well, pray for two weeks and see if anybody will, see if God gives you light bulbs of people to invite.

01:01:24.080 --> 01:01:25.600
 And then follow the script.

01:01:25.760 --> 01:01:27.300
 I mean, just follow the script.

01:01:27.400 --> 01:01:31.160
 It'll seem clunky at first, but then you'll start to own it and it'll become yours.

01:01:31.300 --> 01:01:39.140
 And so they follow the script and people just tear up and say, I've been waiting for somebody to ask me to do something like this.

01:01:39.360 --> 01:01:46.120
 And then there's a catalytic journey ahead for them and it's just changing the game.

01:01:46.320 --> 01:02:03.480
 And I just long, long, long, long, long for leaders in the church to realize that the people of God are waiting to be lifted up and invited off of the stands and onto the field, put some pads on and just start playing and start making a difference against the enemy.

01:02:03.580 --> 01:02:12.940
 The enemy is taking his toll and a lot of people want to get in the game and they're told, you know, the funnel for how to get there is really, really narrow.

01:02:13.320 --> 01:02:32.240
 And I think, Jesus, during this corona season, I believe, you know, I believe that he's saying, will you at least open the aperture of the people that you invite onto the field to start making a difference in this world because we can't get there with the current model alone.

01:02:32.720 --> 01:02:36.180
 Even in this coronavirus season, there's an opportunity to step up.

01:02:36.180 --> 01:02:40.020
 The lesson that I learned from this is to start with the 12.

01:02:40.660 --> 01:02:48.840
 And even in the conversations that I've had, I tend to, I'm an extremist guy just by nature.

01:02:49.100 --> 01:02:50.940
 And you guys don't know me well enough to know that.

01:02:51.020 --> 01:02:52.760
 Hopefully we'll connect more down the road.

01:02:53.240 --> 01:02:55.540
 But I'm always like the zero to 60 in two seconds.

01:02:55.640 --> 01:02:55.900
 Let's go.

01:02:55.980 --> 01:02:56.240
 Let's go.

01:02:56.300 --> 01:02:56.720
 Let's go.

01:02:57.180 --> 01:03:00.400
 Urgency is always at 100%, 120%.

01:03:00.400 --> 01:03:01.800
 The end of the world is coming.

01:03:01.960 --> 01:03:03.700
 I've been saying the end of the world is coming for two years.

01:03:03.800 --> 01:03:08.300
 I didn't realize the global pandemic would actually, like, cause it to, it's the end of the world.

01:03:08.360 --> 01:03:08.980
 It's not really coming.

01:03:09.420 --> 01:03:11.560
 But at least everybody's now engaging with church online.

01:03:11.660 --> 01:03:12.960
 So I'm still taking that as a win.

01:03:14.260 --> 01:03:20.460
 But here's the thing is, in my mind, I'm like, why aren't we already at 20% in this scenario?

01:03:20.580 --> 01:03:22.040
 Let's just go ahead and disciple everybody.

01:03:22.120 --> 01:03:22.420
 Let's go.

01:03:22.500 --> 01:03:22.920
 Let's go.

01:03:23.820 --> 01:03:25.900
 But there's some intentionality.

01:03:26.380 --> 01:03:33.460
 What I'm even learning here is going with the 12, starting with a smaller number.

01:03:33.820 --> 01:03:39.240
 And so I love how there's intentionality on asking, on onboarding, and rolling them through.

01:03:39.240 --> 01:03:55.400
 And so, gentlemen, I know, just to be sensitive at the time, I thank you very much for coming on and having this conversation in the midst of coronavirus season and helping us figure out what it is to be on mission and maybe some intentional next steps towards that.

01:03:56.280 --> 01:03:58.580
 And so, once again, from my heart, thank you for this.

01:03:58.880 --> 01:04:09.220
 And we'll have information and things on the show notes to help you guys if you want to get connected to either Rob, Casey Underground with Kansas City Underground, which is phenomenal.

01:04:09.460 --> 01:04:17.660
 Brian over at Disciples Made will have both their contact and organizational information there.

01:04:17.660 --> 01:04:24.100
 So we're going to wrap because it's been a great podcast, but we got to move on to the next thing because that's life in the coronavirus season.

01:04:24.640 --> 01:04:26.840
 One day, I will come hang out with you.

01:04:27.020 --> 01:04:29.120
 I'm still scheduled to come to this thing in May.

01:04:29.800 --> 01:04:31.260
 I literally have a plane ticket.

01:04:31.380 --> 01:04:34.100
 I will fly out if they will let me, if they will let me.

01:04:34.180 --> 01:04:34.860
 So we'll just see.

01:04:35.580 --> 01:04:38.560
 But for Rob, and that's where I'm going to see Alan Hirsch.

01:04:38.860 --> 01:04:42.100
 And I'm going to walk up and tell him, two tattoos, your name, my body.

01:04:42.200 --> 01:04:42.560
 Let's go.

01:04:43.000 --> 01:04:45.160
 And watch him run away.

01:04:45.940 --> 01:04:49.300
 For Rob, for Brian, this is Jeff at The Church Digital.

01:04:49.420 --> 01:04:51.680
 Thanks for jumping on, and we'll see you next time.

01:04:51.720 --> 01:04:52.180
 Y'all have a good day.