WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.780 All right, we got episode 60 of the Church Digital Podcast, powered by Stadia Church Planning. 00:00:05.960 --> 00:00:07.100 I still, I love this. 00:00:07.180 --> 00:00:15.960 I love working with Stadia in this season, helping churches around the country and around the world figure out how to do this church online thing. 00:00:15.960 --> 00:00:23.800 Figuring out how to help church plants that have yet to even been launched, trying to help them figure out how to do ministry today in this season. 00:00:23.980 --> 00:00:34.200 It's an incredible story. It's an incredible opportunity that we of the church have currently right now to make a difference in the lives of people today. 00:00:34.420 --> 00:00:41.760 Not down the road, not later, not once things get better, but today to reach people where they are today. 00:00:41.760 --> 00:00:45.760 And really, this is the heart that I want to get to with this podcast, the Church Digital. 00:00:46.260 --> 00:00:50.760 We're pivoting some of our conversations a little bit, some of our topics, some of our themes here. 00:00:51.380 --> 00:00:54.260 Because we have talked a lot about broadcasting technology. 00:00:55.180 --> 00:00:58.060 Honestly, there's so many people speaking into broadcasting technology. 00:00:58.200 --> 00:01:00.280 You don't need to hear it from me. You can hear it from others. 00:01:00.860 --> 00:01:03.540 There's even a lot of people talking about small groups online. 00:01:03.880 --> 00:01:09.640 Honestly, I was kind of surprised when I've seen the amount of people who have been talking about small groups and the importance of that. 00:01:09.700 --> 00:01:12.340 It's hugely important to create that biblical community. 00:01:12.780 --> 00:01:16.680 But I don't even feel like I need to be the voice that's saying it because I think others are saying it. 00:01:18.080 --> 00:01:21.220 Here's the truth, though, and I think this is the biggest opportunity for the church. 00:01:21.820 --> 00:01:24.260 Church online coronavirus in the season we're in. 00:01:24.540 --> 00:01:26.320 By the way, it doesn't change. 00:01:26.520 --> 00:01:28.520 It doesn't get back to normal. 00:01:28.520 --> 00:01:35.260 The life that you experienced February 2020 is not magically going to appear in April or in May or in June. 00:01:36.080 --> 00:01:38.220 The culture is shifting. 00:01:38.540 --> 00:01:40.900 What it's going to look like eventually, we don't know yet. 00:01:41.260 --> 00:01:43.320 But I can tell you it's never going back. 00:01:44.100 --> 00:01:44.920 But I do know this. 00:01:44.960 --> 00:01:46.120 In the culture, that's shifting. 00:01:46.800 --> 00:01:49.480 I think there's an opportunity for the church to do something different. 00:01:50.140 --> 00:01:53.740 And I think there's an opportunity for us to reach a new people. 00:01:54.120 --> 00:02:04.220 But we need to shift our view a little bit here into this idea of multiplication, in this idea of disciple making, and really in this idea of on mission. 00:02:04.220 --> 00:02:07.220 What does it even mean to be on mission? 00:02:07.340 --> 00:02:11.520 In this coronavirus season, what does it mean to be on mission? 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:14.200 That right there is a topic for the conversation. 00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:21.020 So we're bringing in a pastor from California into the conversation to help us here talk to this idea of being on mission. 00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:22.160 Larry Wackemeyer. 00:02:22.600 --> 00:02:25.640 He's Light and Life Christian Fellowship. 00:02:26.080 --> 00:02:30.480 You see, I met Larry maybe a month ago at the Exponential Conference here. 00:02:30.620 --> 00:02:31.200 It was in Florida. 00:02:31.340 --> 00:02:32.120 It was up in Orlando. 00:02:32.840 --> 00:02:41.160 And so even though it was just a short month ago, at this point, it feels like it's been several years with just how much we have packed into this coronavirus season. 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:46.480 The reason I want to talk with Larry about this is he wrote a book called The Mobilization Flywheel. 00:02:46.480 --> 00:02:47.800 We'll link to it in the show notes. 00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:49.100 It's a free download. 00:02:49.260 --> 00:02:54.560 It's a PDF put out by Exponential and some others are a part of it. 00:02:54.600 --> 00:02:57.020 Todd Wilson was one of the authors on the book as well. 00:02:57.940 --> 00:03:09.440 But really, at the heart of what it is, he talks about how the system of gatherings, of being the church, of generating missionaries, on how that we can use this. 00:03:09.880 --> 00:03:13.920 And by missionaries, I don't mean people like going to the other parts of the world. 00:03:14.120 --> 00:03:23.560 What I mean are like missionaries who are just on mission for God in their own space, whether that's in the coronavirus season. 00:03:23.680 --> 00:03:25.720 Maybe it's the neighbors that are around you. 00:03:25.720 --> 00:03:34.740 Or maybe you're engaging as a missionary, sharing Christ and engaging with people through your digital footprint right now, your social media. 00:03:35.240 --> 00:03:43.020 But there's an opportunity for us to not only look at the reproduction of reproducing ourselves, reproducing the Christ in us and others, 00:03:43.020 --> 00:03:49.720 but to get to get to the point of multiplication where they turn and then multiply themselves into others. 00:03:49.860 --> 00:03:54.140 And so we talk a lot about discipleship, about disciple making. 00:03:54.620 --> 00:04:02.200 But the heart of this is, how can we help people figure out what their mission is? 00:04:02.460 --> 00:04:08.140 How can we get people and get them on kingdom mission, which is actually Larry's phrase there? 00:04:08.200 --> 00:04:12.300 What does it mean to be on kingdom mission now in the season of coronavirus? 00:04:12.300 --> 00:04:16.920 And how can we, the church, support it, even if we don't directly benefit from it? 00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:18.000 See, that's the thing. 00:04:18.080 --> 00:04:23.440 Sometimes the church calls being on mission, hey, would you be willing to come serve coffee? 00:04:23.960 --> 00:04:25.520 You'll be part of the production team? 00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:27.120 You want to serve in kids. 00:04:27.620 --> 00:04:30.660 And these are all legitimate ways of doing service. 00:04:31.160 --> 00:04:36.840 But there's a difference, I would suggest, in doing things that helps the church execute physical services 00:04:36.840 --> 00:04:39.160 or even execute church online services. 00:04:39.600 --> 00:04:44.120 And then there's a different level of what does it mean to have a personal mission? 00:04:44.460 --> 00:04:49.440 What is God enabling you to do that only you can do? 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:54.920 Because I think if we really tap into that, what is the thing that God wants you to do that only you can do? 00:04:55.420 --> 00:05:02.900 I think that's where we see a movement happen, as we see more of these people living on kingdom mission 00:05:02.900 --> 00:05:05.620 spreading throughout their circle of influences. 00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:07.120 This is, it's crazy talk. 00:05:07.180 --> 00:05:08.260 It's a crazy conversation. 00:05:08.620 --> 00:05:11.480 The thing I love about Larry is the crazier I get with the questions, 00:05:11.580 --> 00:05:15.520 the more grounded he is in the answers because he's like, you know, crazy. 00:05:15.620 --> 00:05:16.080 I love this. 00:05:16.140 --> 00:05:17.400 Let's just keep going with it. 00:05:18.440 --> 00:05:23.140 And I got to tell you, for me, this was a great opportunity to pause from the hecticness of the week, 00:05:23.140 --> 00:05:29.260 of the chaos of everything that's going on and to just stop and have a heartfelt conversation with a man 00:05:29.260 --> 00:05:36.080 and talking about discipleship, disciple making, the heart of what we are doing all of this for. 00:05:37.040 --> 00:05:41.240 So to that end, I'm bringing in Larry Walkenmeyer, pastor of Light and Life Fellowship, 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:46.480 author of the Mobilization Flywheel, and myself, Jeff, from the Church Digital, 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:50.160 and a conversation that I'm calling Getting People on Kingdom Mission. 00:05:50.900 --> 00:05:52.060 Okay, everybody, here you go. 00:05:53.000 --> 00:06:00.100 Yeah, I just felt like for such a time as this is, you know, that's what, when I pray about you and your ministry, 00:06:00.320 --> 00:06:02.240 it's for such a time as this, my goodness. 00:06:02.980 --> 00:06:04.400 Yeah, thank you for that. 00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:05.660 I mean, it was for before. 00:06:05.660 --> 00:06:12.480 I don't mean to negate, you know, just in general, but now, you know, the fast forward button has been pushed. 00:06:13.180 --> 00:06:17.640 And, you know, like you said, there are people arriving there that were resistance. 00:06:20.360 --> 00:06:22.460 I mean, that's the whole thing with Stadia. 00:06:22.540 --> 00:06:29.840 When Stadia hired me, like it's, hey, we want to do this hyper-aggressive thing to get into technology. 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:32.280 We want to be kind of looking down the road. 00:06:33.720 --> 00:06:38.700 Your posture is more of what if, like what if this happens? 00:06:38.780 --> 00:06:40.100 And just ask questions. 00:06:40.200 --> 00:06:43.680 Ask questions, and let's do research and development to get there. 00:06:43.840 --> 00:06:45.600 And it's like, okay, that's great. 00:06:46.020 --> 00:06:49.380 And so we delved into this digital-only, you know, ecclesiology. 00:06:50.340 --> 00:07:00.440 And honestly, we're pivoting right now because it's like, hey, that theoretical conversation that we were having, that's not theoretical anymore. 00:07:00.820 --> 00:07:09.520 And the demands of the church today, the needs that the church needs to survive, it's no longer relevant to this theoretical conversation. 00:07:09.900 --> 00:07:11.220 It's completely different. 00:07:11.440 --> 00:07:37.440 Like we can figure out what a digital-only ecclesiology looks like, but at the same time, 99% of the churches that exist right now, plus are physical only, that need to embrace some sort of a, and we're using the term fidgetal, a mixture of physical and digital, some sort of a fidgetal mindset so that their discipleship, so their ministry can exist in digital space as well as physical. 00:07:37.920 --> 00:07:45.940 Because I think when we come out of this, you know, I had a church, one of the churches that I'm close with here in Miami, they're like, yeah, we're ramping up. 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:54.620 We're going to do more services when we come back from this because we're seeing online attendance skyrocket and people are engaging with this. 00:07:54.840 --> 00:07:57.580 And we think it's going to be revival at our physical campuses. 00:07:57.940 --> 00:08:01.020 And if God wants that to happen, that will happen. 00:08:01.580 --> 00:08:09.240 But honestly, my reading of the culture is, yeah, I don't think people are going to be thronging back the buildings initially. 00:08:09.840 --> 00:08:12.300 Maybe in time, maybe you do build on that. 00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:21.220 But I'm really hesitant to say, oh, yeah, our venues are going to double in the number of people because of the coronavirus season. 00:08:21.320 --> 00:08:27.480 Now, if we're living on mission and our people are engaging in new ways, that's a completely separate conversation. 00:08:28.460 --> 00:08:32.220 But views on a web stream, that's not making people on mission. 00:08:32.980 --> 00:08:33.400 Absolutely. 00:08:34.460 --> 00:08:34.780 Yeah. 00:08:34.940 --> 00:08:37.180 And you called it fidgetal? 00:08:38.440 --> 00:08:39.280 What was your word? 00:08:39.420 --> 00:08:39.620 Fidgetal. 00:08:39.980 --> 00:08:40.740 Yeah, fidgetal. 00:08:40.900 --> 00:08:42.520 It's actually a business term. 00:08:42.860 --> 00:08:45.920 It's P-H-Y-G-I-T-A-L. 00:08:46.280 --> 00:08:51.340 It's the merger of physical and digital. 00:08:52.180 --> 00:08:55.300 And so that's the – it's a term. 00:08:55.460 --> 00:08:58.460 It actually – honestly, I'm not sure where it came from. 00:08:59.140 --> 00:09:04.120 Eric Geiger, who's in your neck of the woods, he's actually the first person I've heard say it. 00:09:04.120 --> 00:09:10.260 But I know James Emery White over at Mecklenburg or Mech Church, he says it a little bit in his tech stuff. 00:09:10.600 --> 00:09:25.400 So – but it's this – when I look specifically – and this is what resonated with me with your book because you've got this multiplication strategy, this plan that comes out. 00:09:25.800 --> 00:09:36.040 And it's like if we could utilize multiplication in context of what we're doing online, it justifies it. 00:09:36.540 --> 00:09:45.680 I was having a conversation with one of my Stadia coworkers today where it was, hey, Jeff, what's the heart of what we're trying to do fidgetally? 00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:47.940 Like what is the goal? 00:09:48.020 --> 00:09:48.680 What's the win? 00:09:48.680 --> 00:10:03.320 And the principle that I came up with, it's tied to this online to offline, which actually came out of Jay Caranda at Saddleback, where it's like the gospel that we hear in the online world is so impactful to us. 00:10:03.880 --> 00:10:08.980 It impacts our physical relationships, our offline world. 00:10:09.800 --> 00:10:15.920 And so more than just hearing content, we are – it is driving us to action. 00:10:16.140 --> 00:10:17.900 Virtual action is awesome. 00:10:18.420 --> 00:10:20.980 Physical action is just as good. 00:10:21.660 --> 00:10:25.260 So hearing a sermon, sharing a sermon is one thing. 00:10:25.920 --> 00:10:36.980 Hearing a sermon, having it motivate me in such a way that I am now treating my wife, my spouse, my kids differently, now that's a whole other level. 00:10:36.980 --> 00:10:39.300 Because content is now going into action. 00:10:39.800 --> 00:10:39.880 Right. 00:10:39.980 --> 00:10:41.260 And it's not just content. 00:10:41.420 --> 00:10:55.420 There's obviously a level of relationship, two-way communications in here as we're casting vision and developing disciple makers to go out and do this multiplication piece. 00:10:56.780 --> 00:10:57.220 Absolutely. 00:10:57.820 --> 00:10:58.240 Yeah. 00:10:58.280 --> 00:10:59.180 I love the way you're thinking. 00:10:59.740 --> 00:11:02.280 This whole people on mission. 00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:06.940 Churches, I think, are good at getting people on mission for the church. 00:11:07.740 --> 00:11:18.800 But I think there's this level, and I'd love your take, of people being on mission for God that may not necessarily run towards the church, but alongside it. 00:11:19.360 --> 00:11:25.620 I'm working with a guy right now who was on mission, and he started a nonprofit. 00:11:25.880 --> 00:11:29.900 Basically, he's doing telehealth for third world countries. 00:11:29.900 --> 00:11:38.540 He's connecting doctors here in America with clinics down in Latin and South America where there's no medical. 00:11:39.380 --> 00:11:52.600 And through these connections, he's not only providing physical needs where he's treating people, and other doctors are volunteering to treat people, but he's also working towards providing and meeting spiritual needs, resourcing churches in the area. 00:11:53.200 --> 00:12:01.880 And where you've got somebody that's – when I look at – when I talk about a digital-only church, now I'm not – I'm looking at my circle of influence. 00:12:02.020 --> 00:12:08.180 I'm looking at the things that I'm passionate about that God has kind of got me fired up, excited about. 00:12:08.720 --> 00:12:15.100 And it's like, how can we, the church, how can we unleash people to follow their passions? 00:12:15.100 --> 00:12:20.960 Like my friend here who started this whole nonprofit, George, providing telehealth. 00:12:21.220 --> 00:12:25.640 Like, do you – within your church or your experience, do you have stories like that? 00:12:25.680 --> 00:12:27.660 Is there anything that came to mind through your book? 00:12:28.820 --> 00:12:31.760 What is being on mission at a personal level? 00:12:31.980 --> 00:12:32.940 What does that look like? 00:12:34.060 --> 00:12:52.280 Yeah, Jeff, there are a ton of examples of things that people are actually doing on kingdom mission that the church hasn't readily embraced and championed and called out of people. 00:12:52.860 --> 00:13:05.440 I think the church has done a poor job of Ephesians 4, 11, and 12, where those in leadership exist for the equipping of the saints to do the works of ministry. 00:13:07.260 --> 00:13:20.100 And so often pastors have interpreted those Ephesians 4, 12 works of ministry as how to volunteer within the church and how to build up the institution of the church, 00:13:20.680 --> 00:13:32.920 rather than, excuse me, linking it to Ephesians 2, 10, where God declares that we are his workmanship, his masterpiece, his poyme, his poem, 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:39.340 created a new in Christ Jesus for the good works which God prepared for us long ago. 00:13:40.100 --> 00:13:48.400 And because that Ephesians 2, 10 captures those individual callings and those individual giftings and destinies of believers. 00:13:49.660 --> 00:13:58.600 And we've somehow taken that and handicapped it to mean only service within the church. 00:13:58.600 --> 00:14:09.860 And so you've got people like your friend who have this ability to raise up this whole ministry that's doing incredible things. 00:14:10.020 --> 00:14:15.840 But most pastors would be more interested in just how he would volunteer for perhaps the church board. 00:14:18.840 --> 00:14:28.340 A lady named Holly comes to my mind who is very active in the real estate world here and has a great business going. 00:14:29.260 --> 00:14:34.000 And a couple of years ago, I asked her to be on the church board. 00:14:34.640 --> 00:14:37.180 I said, you'd be perfect for our church board. 00:14:37.560 --> 00:14:48.560 And she asked me, well, Pastor, I'm leading a Bible study in my neighborhood and we're doing outreaches in our neighborhood. 00:14:48.560 --> 00:14:57.380 And I'm leading this coaching thing at work that I'm turning now into a Bible study. 00:14:57.460 --> 00:15:00.560 So which one of those do you want me to give up so I can be on the church board? 00:15:00.560 --> 00:15:10.260 And Jeff, you know, the answer to that was neither because you're doing what I want the rest of the church to be doing. 00:15:10.540 --> 00:15:19.720 You're living on mission as salt and light in a way that fits your personality, your calling, your giftings. 00:15:20.340 --> 00:15:29.900 And yeah, she still volunteers some in the church, but her calling that I'm championing is out in the world, in her realm of the world. 00:15:29.900 --> 00:15:34.740 And so she's living on mission in a way that I think you're articulating with your friend. 00:15:35.340 --> 00:15:39.160 But that's not what's championed in the church frequently enough. 00:15:39.380 --> 00:15:49.540 It's how can the people in the pews build the vision of the pastor in the pulpit, the calling that he has. 00:15:49.980 --> 00:15:54.120 Part of me wants to ask questions like, how do we pivot? 00:15:54.500 --> 00:15:55.780 How do we change? 00:15:57.740 --> 00:16:02.200 Well, let me even ask this question, you know, and you used on kingdom mission. 00:16:02.200 --> 00:16:05.440 And so let's use your term here because I think that's good. 00:16:06.520 --> 00:16:11.760 You know, with your church today in California, you're in the West Coast, you're in SoCal. 00:16:11.880 --> 00:16:16.620 You guys have been locked down for two to three weeks. 00:16:17.260 --> 00:16:18.940 How long have you guys been? 00:16:19.480 --> 00:16:21.340 What's the condition right now of your church? 00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:21.900 Let me ask that. 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:26.080 It's been about two and a half weeks, and yeah, we have no meetings whatsoever. 00:16:28.360 --> 00:16:37.460 You know, the first week we were able to gather in homes, but by the second week, after a few days, actually, we were no longer even able to do that. 00:16:37.460 --> 00:16:42.540 So we were totally digital from that point on and begin to live stream everything. 00:16:43.680 --> 00:16:45.940 So we have small groups meeting online. 00:16:46.100 --> 00:16:48.760 We have prayer groups meeting online. 00:16:49.220 --> 00:17:04.640 We're doing live updates every day except Saturday and live streaming a Wednesday night service and then live streaming three Sunday morning services and then making those available afterwards in recorded version. 00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:22.200 And so it's a whole new world for us because we were doing this all in person now that what we're doing digitally now. 00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:28.300 And yet, I think it affords us an opportunity, and we're already starting to see this. 00:17:28.420 --> 00:17:36.200 We're seeing some new leaders raise up who thrive in this digital world in new ways. 00:17:36.500 --> 00:17:38.980 And that's been our call. 00:17:39.140 --> 00:17:44.800 One of our clarion calls in the midst of this is how can you serve? 00:17:45.160 --> 00:17:55.880 And trying to give our people tools on how they can serve in this moment and the idea that God has provided this as an opportunity. 00:17:56.060 --> 00:18:02.040 And some of you that have been sitting back, this is the hour that God is calling you to step forward in new ways. 00:18:02.180 --> 00:18:12.840 And one of the interesting things has been some of our introverts who have really been sitting back have stepped up in a new way on a digital platform, which I found interesting. 00:18:13.020 --> 00:18:27.880 Yeah, like, and that's part of Larry, you know, I met you and we I mentioned that earlier in the intro, but like it was at exponential, maybe less than a week before ground zero. 00:18:28.060 --> 00:18:37.740 I think ground zero was probably hitting in California when you were in Orlando, and it's starting to roll across the, you know, the Pacific Northwest over towards the East Coast. 00:18:37.740 --> 00:18:45.500 And, you know, I can remember having having conversations about multiplication in digital, and it was all, it was all theoretical. 00:18:46.120 --> 00:18:55.900 And it's like, hey, you know, Larry, I read your book, this is phenomenal, but there's this completely different wrinkle here, if we could figure out how to how to do this. 00:18:56.860 --> 00:19:19.140 And in an almost prophetic timing, a couple weeks later, we're finding where we have to do this, you know, whereas churches, almost ad nauseum have had conversations with me that you cannot do discipleship online, are now stuck in this position where, in order to survive, they have to. 00:19:19.520 --> 00:19:28.980 And it's kind of, as in a blog, I actually equated it to like, you know, the great theologian, Mike Tyson, everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the face. 00:19:29.840 --> 00:19:36.700 And, yeah, coronavirus kind of punched us a little bit, and the church has adapted through it. 00:19:37.180 --> 00:19:45.840 So my question for you is, like, what does, what is discipleship, what is multiplication, what does it look like for you? 00:19:45.840 --> 00:19:50.720 What could it look like for you, and is this something where now you're seeing kind of on the flip side? 00:19:50.820 --> 00:19:52.720 Is this a long-term thing? 00:19:52.780 --> 00:19:53.920 Is this a short-term thing? 00:19:54.060 --> 00:20:02.800 Like, what's your feeling centered kind of around utilizing technology to create disciple makers? 00:20:03.980 --> 00:20:13.960 Yeah, well, Jeff, I think those are the questions that people like myself who have been leading a long time in a non-digital world, 00:20:13.960 --> 00:20:22.640 and I'm 62 now, and, you know, I use technology all the time, but I'm not, it's not my native language. 00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:29.200 It's a second or third language that I continue to try and learn. 00:20:29.840 --> 00:20:32.960 So I'll just be real honest. 00:20:33.120 --> 00:20:35.160 We were thrust into this. 00:20:35.260 --> 00:20:40.000 We'd never livestreamed a service until that first Sunday where we had to. 00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:43.340 We'd been setting up for it, but we'd been dragging our feet a bit. 00:20:43.820 --> 00:20:53.380 And so our learning curve has been really high, even on the service delivery of Sunday morning services. 00:20:54.960 --> 00:21:03.080 So then how to learn to do discipleship and missional work and multiplication online. 00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:07.940 We've been scrambling to really learn that. 00:21:08.820 --> 00:21:18.260 But one of my concerns is that with the livestream, you know, we're a church of about 1,000, 00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:26.400 and we've been having about 5,000 listens to our broadcast now. 00:21:26.580 --> 00:21:30.240 And that's wonderful, and I rejoice, and we've been getting some great testimonies, 00:21:30.300 --> 00:21:34.780 and that gospel proclamation is just something we're praying for, we're working for, 00:21:34.840 --> 00:21:36.660 we're trying to get that number up. 00:21:37.140 --> 00:21:42.080 But it feels like a mile wide and an inch deep. 00:21:42.620 --> 00:21:43.960 And that dries up. 00:21:44.040 --> 00:21:47.420 If you've got a body of water that's a mile wide and an inch deep, 00:21:47.420 --> 00:21:50.740 it dries up really fast once the sun comes back out. 00:21:51.740 --> 00:22:00.040 And that's the metaphor that I'm seeing with our current digital presence with just the 00:22:00.040 --> 00:22:03.940 livestreaming of services, which, again, God's used in a powerful way, 00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:09.240 and which we'll keep doing after this crisis begins to wane. 00:22:10.020 --> 00:22:17.320 But more importantly to me is how to use these digital platforms to go deeper with a few people 00:22:17.320 --> 00:22:27.200 in a discipling relationship that actually bears fruit in both the character change of the disciple 00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:35.140 and the—so they're being transformed, but also so that they're catching that same vision 00:22:35.140 --> 00:22:40.760 to do that with someone else, which I think in this digital world, 00:22:41.260 --> 00:22:43.840 they're catching much faster. 00:22:43.880 --> 00:22:44.900 I'll just say it that way. 00:22:47.540 --> 00:22:49.840 Maybe it's because of the intensity of the time. 00:22:49.840 --> 00:22:57.100 Maybe it's because of the ease of getting together with someone online versus getting together at a Starbucks, 00:22:57.100 --> 00:23:01.820 which is still pretty easy, but not like just a click of a mouse. 00:23:02.560 --> 00:23:15.280 And so we're trying to drive into those relational circles and do disciple-making that way using this new digital platform. 00:23:15.940 --> 00:23:21.280 And as to your question as to, you know, I'm not a futurist and I don't have a prophetic gift, 00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:26.500 but I think we'll never go back to normal as we knew it. 00:23:27.600 --> 00:23:41.500 I think for us, I'm just speaking now, for our local church, we're going to be in a new normal even as it relates to how we deliver discipleship and resourcing. 00:23:42.040 --> 00:23:47.480 We're going to lead with the physical, but the digital will be right there beside it, 00:23:48.060 --> 00:23:56.040 supplementing and drawing in those and doing discipleship in a new way so that our discipleship platforms are expanded. 00:23:56.960 --> 00:23:58.920 So I'm really excited about what I'm learning. 00:23:59.120 --> 00:24:03.880 I'm not learning fast enough, but I'm learning. 00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:08.720 And one other thing you mentioned, and I don't know whether you would touch on this, 00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:12.940 but we actually, one of our church, we got two church plants in the hopper. 00:24:13.520 --> 00:24:18.140 And one of them was set to launch on in September of 2020. 00:24:18.800 --> 00:24:30.800 But they decided because of the COVID-19 crisis and because of all the online streaming that was going on to launch on Easter Sunday online. 00:24:31.560 --> 00:24:38.040 So, you know, they are scrambling and they're getting ready to launch their entire church plant, 00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:42.280 renovate church online on Easter Sunday. 00:24:42.540 --> 00:24:52.040 Of course, then they'll have a reopening physically, but it will now be with the support and the momentum of everything that they've generated online 00:24:52.040 --> 00:24:55.760 before they can even physically do a grand opening. 00:24:55.760 --> 00:25:00.500 So we're really excited about that, and I'm watching that develop hour by hour. 00:25:01.240 --> 00:25:07.140 That's a great story, and I would even love off-air to kind of learn more about that. 00:25:07.520 --> 00:25:10.420 This week, this is this completely true story. 00:25:10.500 --> 00:25:14.140 This past week, I was talking to a giga-church digital pastor. 00:25:14.860 --> 00:25:19.260 This guy's got 20,000 people that are attending a physical campus, 00:25:19.780 --> 00:25:23.020 not to mention the tens of thousands that are watching online. 00:25:23.020 --> 00:25:25.820 And a physical campus, it's a very large church. 00:25:25.900 --> 00:25:26.760 Let's just say it that way. 00:25:27.360 --> 00:25:32.980 His comment to me was, Jeff, I wish I was at a small church right now where I could be doing actual ministry 00:25:32.980 --> 00:25:41.080 because the strength of online, and he's like, I really, because we started talking about the digital church planting 00:25:41.080 --> 00:25:46.580 and some of the stuff, and even what your friends are doing, Larry, by planting their own church, 00:25:46.580 --> 00:25:53.860 going early, taking advantage of this opportunity to engage relationally with people while they're hungry, 00:25:53.860 --> 00:25:59.220 looking for something, and looking for those relational touch points. 00:25:59.800 --> 00:26:02.020 There's a huge opportunity to do that. 00:26:02.580 --> 00:26:08.760 And even the people who were doing these massive broadcasts and reaching the tens of thousands of people, 00:26:09.160 --> 00:26:13.680 the problem with that is that you don't know who those tens of thousands of people are. 00:26:14.280 --> 00:26:20.300 And to try to discover who they are, who those devices are, who's behind those IP addresses, 00:26:20.820 --> 00:26:25.700 like, you know, the business world hasn't figured that out yet, much less the church. 00:26:26.260 --> 00:26:32.820 Stadia revolutionized my life like two weeks ago because I've always been struggling with this idea of 00:26:32.820 --> 00:26:37.040 you're doing the service first, but like when you're planning a service, 00:26:37.040 --> 00:26:39.760 you're gathering the people together and then the groups and this. 00:26:39.760 --> 00:26:45.460 And like with the church planning mindset, once again, I come from this world of like mega, giga, multi. 00:26:46.100 --> 00:26:51.040 And so I'm like, well, you start with the gathering and then you pull them into groups and then you get them serving. 00:26:51.260 --> 00:26:53.700 You get them because so I'm doing the Rick Warren baseball diamond, right? 00:26:53.800 --> 00:26:57.100 You know, whether it's a diamond or a triangle, like those are the four stops. 00:26:57.100 --> 00:27:00.320 And hopefully we get them all the way to, you know, home plate. 00:27:00.320 --> 00:27:04.100 But chances are they drift off somewhere in between first and second base. 00:27:06.040 --> 00:27:12.960 And Craig, my boss over at Stadia, he says to me, he says, Jeff, when you're planning a church, you do it backwards. 00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:15.080 And I'm like, what do you mean? 00:27:15.100 --> 00:27:23.640 He's like, you start with people on mission and then you go backwards and then you, you get them serving and then you get them in groups and then, you know, whatever it is. 00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:26.800 But you start with the on mission people and you grow from there. 00:27:27.420 --> 00:27:30.000 And this is probably something in the church planning world. 00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:33.320 And somebody is out there saying, Jeff, you are so stupid that you didn't realize that. 00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:43.680 But dear God, the idea of starting people on mission, even in an online context to say, hey, I want you to go out there and utilize your circle of influence. 00:27:44.100 --> 00:27:51.640 In the season of coronavirus, your virtual influence or the physical influence around the 10 houses of your neighborhood. 00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:58.820 What an incredible challenge to be on mission to reach people in unique ways who are hungry for this stuff. 00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:03.100 I love the fact that your church is like, forget the plan, forget all this stuff. 00:28:03.160 --> 00:28:05.660 Yeah, we can wait till September and all this may be over. 00:28:05.720 --> 00:28:06.920 And who knows where we look like in September. 00:28:07.160 --> 00:28:08.120 Let's just go now. 00:28:08.360 --> 00:28:09.160 Let's figure it out. 00:28:09.260 --> 00:28:10.320 Build the plan as we're flying. 00:28:10.860 --> 00:28:11.980 That is so awesome. 00:28:12.680 --> 00:28:13.000 Absolutely. 00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:16.280 I think that's the the wind of the Holy Spirit. 00:28:16.740 --> 00:28:21.020 Jesus was real clear that it doesn't blow where we want it to. 00:28:21.100 --> 00:28:23.720 It blows where the Holy Spirit wants to blow. 00:28:23.840 --> 00:28:25.700 And then we go with the Holy Spirit. 00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:37.740 And I think this is one of those moments in the church where we have that opportunity for the spirit to blow us into new places where we may have been very resistant to go. 00:28:38.120 --> 00:28:52.440 And whether that's in terms of the digital world or whether that's in terms of the missional mobilization and multiplication world, because the scorecard of the American church, no doubt, has been the attendance scorecard. 00:28:52.640 --> 00:29:02.000 You know, the bigger and that you are, there are more buildings, the more budget you have, the more successful you are as a church. 00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:09.920 And that's the kind of scorecard that, you know, and praise God, we love, I love mega churches. 00:29:10.380 --> 00:29:12.460 They're doing a lot of great things for the gospel. 00:29:12.580 --> 00:29:14.620 So this is not a dig on them by any means. 00:29:14.920 --> 00:29:25.620 But the larger you get, the harder it is to ensure that people are being called into ministry and equipped for the mission that God has created them for. 00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:29.580 Now, you can do that, but you've got to be super intentional the bigger you get. 00:29:29.580 --> 00:29:39.660 And most churches aren't willing to sacrifice the attenders to send out the missionaries. 00:29:40.500 --> 00:29:48.060 And so for us, you know, that's just a part of who we are, this idea of being a river church where people flow in and flow out. 00:29:48.100 --> 00:30:00.200 And it's not about becoming bigger, getting more and more people around one person, which we call the lake model, get them more and more around one person and giving to one budget and building up one vision. 00:30:00.920 --> 00:30:10.120 Instead, it's this river idea that people will flow in and we will empower and equip them to flow back out with the gospel, especially in the form of church plants. 00:30:11.040 --> 00:30:17.740 And that's driven by a different kind of scorecard than the typical American scorecard. 00:30:17.740 --> 00:30:30.840 So I think this moment where we can't gather in these large groups is the opportunity the spirit wants to take to create a new kind of scorecard. 00:30:31.460 --> 00:30:42.740 So where it's not attenders or what we're in danger of doing right now is to replace the attendance scorecard with the number of viewers scorecard online. 00:30:43.100 --> 00:30:45.780 You know, how many views did you have? 00:30:47.420 --> 00:31:12.600 But instead, replace that in this moment with this, with the scorecard that you're talking about, Jeff, where Christians are living on mission into their calling and growing, growing the church in the kingdom on the front lines instead of, you know, it's kind of like just go back a physical analogy for a moment. 00:31:13.100 --> 00:31:17.860 A guy named Terry in my church that sat there for 15 years. 00:31:17.980 --> 00:31:22.300 He was my head usher and just one of my key volunteers. 00:31:22.780 --> 00:31:37.080 And because I never cast a vision for and called and celebrated his calling like I should have, because this was when I had the old scorecard. 00:31:37.780 --> 00:31:42.800 Terry sat there for 15 years, but now he's living on mission. 00:31:43.100 --> 00:31:49.260 And in his neighborhood, in a whole new area, he went with one of our church plants. 00:31:49.260 --> 00:31:52.540 He became the associate pastor when he was just the head usher. 00:31:52.980 --> 00:32:10.200 And I had to repent to the Lord that I had, I had held his calling back because I was more concerned about how he would serve my vision of building our church as our head usher than I was about saying, Terry, what's the fullness of God's calling for your life? 00:32:10.200 --> 00:32:15.620 And where can you express that out in the world and then in the church to its fullness? 00:32:17.720 --> 00:32:18.480 That's amazing. 00:32:18.620 --> 00:32:20.760 It was right there beneath you. 00:32:20.860 --> 00:32:32.900 And just because you were working, you know, forgive me for implying, but your own agenda going in your direction without understanding the larger picture of things and really, you know, missed out on that. 00:32:32.900 --> 00:32:40.280 And I'm sure it's exciting to see Terry kind of come into his own with the new role and expanding in ministry. 00:32:40.900 --> 00:32:42.520 What a great story with that. 00:32:43.400 --> 00:32:50.980 How do you in this season, in the coronavirus, like, okay, analytics to crazy. 00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:53.620 Facebook lies. 00:32:54.140 --> 00:32:56.740 All right, it does. 00:32:56.860 --> 00:33:03.320 Like, I could be scrolling through a news feed, take a second to sneeze into my elbow, come back in. 00:33:03.320 --> 00:33:08.360 And if my church service was up for the two seconds while I sneezed, you just got a view. 00:33:09.080 --> 00:33:14.820 You know, churches are reporting five to seven times the number of physical attenders virtually. 00:33:15.040 --> 00:33:17.220 Now, there's a lot of legitimacy in that. 00:33:17.260 --> 00:33:22.300 And I am not ridiculing the broadcast of services at all. 00:33:22.780 --> 00:33:27.380 But that's just one piece of a larger puzzle. 00:33:28.780 --> 00:33:33.380 So my question is, like, how are you evaluating success? 00:33:34.380 --> 00:33:37.800 How are you – what is your scorecard? 00:33:37.980 --> 00:33:39.860 What's the win of your scorecard? 00:33:40.020 --> 00:33:45.480 How do you as a church, as a staff, as pastors, how do you judge right now? 00:33:47.260 --> 00:33:49.540 Yeah, Jeff, that's a great question. 00:33:50.260 --> 00:33:58.300 And it's one that we are really just this week – the first two weeks, to be honest, we were just scrambling our brains out, 00:33:58.360 --> 00:34:04.760 just trying to make things happen and connect our church and figure out what was happening and getting people into – you know, 00:34:04.760 --> 00:34:06.160 we have a small group structure. 00:34:06.420 --> 00:34:08.760 So that helped us in that moment. 00:34:08.900 --> 00:34:12.320 But we still have a lot of folks that aren't in small groups. 00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:21.160 So we were creating care circles, and I had 24 staff to move into online ministry at home, from home, 00:34:22.100 --> 00:34:24.480 and figuring out how to get them on mission that way. 00:34:25.140 --> 00:34:31.600 So it's really this week that we're really sitting down and saying, you know, what does success – 00:34:31.600 --> 00:34:39.940 if this thing lingers for another month, two, three months, what does effectiveness for the kingdom really look like? 00:34:40.880 --> 00:34:48.580 And so one of the things it's not going to look like is what you just said, is number of views. 00:34:48.720 --> 00:34:50.200 That's not our first priority. 00:34:52.720 --> 00:35:01.420 It's going to look like the things that we've talked about and I've thought about are the stories. 00:35:01.720 --> 00:35:08.300 Because we ask for people – I don't want to just know that you've – would you share a story with us? 00:35:08.360 --> 00:35:15.340 And so we've started getting stories from people, emails, text – we have a number you can text – 00:35:15.340 --> 00:35:21.260 of people who have never been in church before or haven't been to church for a long time. 00:35:21.680 --> 00:35:28.360 One guy from Kansas texted and said, you know, I'm dying from cancer. 00:35:28.580 --> 00:35:33.460 And he got there through another guy in Kansas that knows our church, has visited our church, 00:35:33.520 --> 00:35:38.720 and he invited his friend who's dying of cancer to get on the live broadcast. 00:35:39.020 --> 00:35:43.240 And he did, and the Lord touched his life in a powerful way. 00:35:44.260 --> 00:35:47.840 So stories like that, we're inviting those stories in. 00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:54.860 And in terms of outreach, what are the new givers that are coming in? 00:35:55.680 --> 00:36:01.860 Who's being touched by the message in such a way that we have new contributors to the mission of the church financially? 00:36:02.380 --> 00:36:08.080 Because now they're not just watching, they're being moved by the message and the values of the church 00:36:08.080 --> 00:36:12.540 to partner with us, whether believers and non-believers, we may not know at that point. 00:36:13.320 --> 00:36:14.560 Indicated decisions. 00:36:15.740 --> 00:36:18.820 You know, we have an ability for folks to indicate decisions. 00:36:19.660 --> 00:36:21.220 So that's a big one. 00:36:21.600 --> 00:36:31.480 But then for our own people, who are you identifying as an apprentice in this moment? 00:36:31.700 --> 00:36:34.680 Because we've been a little weak on that. 00:36:34.680 --> 00:36:43.700 And asking for digital apprentices is, for some reason, now that most of our people, I've been crazier than ever, 00:36:43.820 --> 00:36:47.060 but most of our people have more time margin than they had. 00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:54.940 Because we're in a low-income area, a lot of our folks are day laborers who lost their jobs, unfortunately. 00:36:56.020 --> 00:36:59.840 We have a few in essential services, but most of them have a little bit more time margin. 00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:04.860 So we've asked them, hey, would you invest this time in raising up an apprentice 00:37:04.860 --> 00:37:13.780 and getting ready to start a new group quickly versus, you know, the six to nine months of apprenticing? 00:37:14.160 --> 00:37:17.640 Can you have them ready to go in the next week or two? 00:37:17.820 --> 00:37:18.660 That kind of thing. 00:37:20.100 --> 00:37:26.680 And with appropriate support, knowing it's different digitally online and shipping those things 00:37:26.680 --> 00:37:31.140 that are questions up the rail quickly. 00:37:31.860 --> 00:37:37.620 But so those are some of the markers that we're trying to shoot for right now. 00:37:37.720 --> 00:37:38.580 But we're still learning. 00:37:39.600 --> 00:37:44.260 Well, I got to ask, and I wasn't even wanting to go there, but you just opened it up. 00:37:45.060 --> 00:37:55.880 So Crock-Pot versus Microwave, you know, your systems, your book, it typically talks more of a Crock-Pot, 00:37:55.960 --> 00:38:00.820 I would suggest, approach of that apprenticeship, those groups, that multiplication. 00:38:01.820 --> 00:38:02.900 It takes time. 00:38:03.320 --> 00:38:04.320 Don't rush that. 00:38:04.420 --> 00:38:05.060 Let's grow it. 00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:07.460 Get the person on mission and let them multiply. 00:38:08.460 --> 00:38:12.760 You know, you talk about the one to three relationship, one person taking three, 00:38:13.380 --> 00:38:16.880 those developing another three, discipling another three, another three. 00:38:17.100 --> 00:38:19.380 And that's, you know, takes, that's a time approach. 00:38:19.940 --> 00:38:24.960 You just said you were doing a microwave, you know, flip these groups in a couple weeks. 00:38:25.740 --> 00:38:27.960 What challenges are you feeling? 00:38:28.300 --> 00:38:29.160 What have been the wins? 00:38:29.260 --> 00:38:29.900 What have been the losses? 00:38:30.060 --> 00:38:35.420 What are the advice that you can maybe give to a church that's maybe wrestling with some of that same tension? 00:38:36.540 --> 00:38:39.680 Yeah, I don't want to give the wrong impression. 00:38:40.060 --> 00:38:41.060 These aren't new people. 00:38:41.140 --> 00:38:46.280 These are people that have been sitting around in the groups that have been learning for, you know, 00:38:46.280 --> 00:38:52.940 the last year or two or three or more, and who now, because of this crisis, 00:38:53.100 --> 00:38:56.780 we're leveraging the crisis to say, now is your time, man. 00:38:56.900 --> 00:38:58.700 It's time to step up. 00:38:59.420 --> 00:39:06.520 And so there is still a bit of a crockpot in there because we're not taking new believers 00:39:06.520 --> 00:39:09.180 immediately into apprenticing. 00:39:10.120 --> 00:39:15.520 But we are really kicking the fannies of some people who have been sitting around for a long time. 00:39:16.640 --> 00:39:19.220 And just we're making it easier. 00:39:19.640 --> 00:39:24.900 Online has particular challenges, but it's easier in a lot of ways as well. 00:39:25.680 --> 00:39:33.300 And the oversight can be a little more direct, too, by the key leader, because, you know, 00:39:33.340 --> 00:39:35.740 when Jesus sent his disciples out, they weren't ready. 00:39:36.580 --> 00:39:46.800 And I think one of the big weaknesses, a significant weakness of the church is that we haven't trusted the Holy Spirit 00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:52.460 and the Word and spiritual authority enough to send out people before they're ready. 00:39:53.500 --> 00:40:00.620 And not like Jesus did in the sense that they weren't leaving. 00:40:00.760 --> 00:40:05.820 He wasn't leaving them and they weren't leaving him, but he was sending them out and then calling them back, 00:40:05.940 --> 00:40:07.500 sending them out and calling them back. 00:40:07.880 --> 00:40:13.200 And that's one of the things that enabled the expediency that he was able to use with them. 00:40:14.020 --> 00:40:25.000 So I think when we really trust the Holy Spirit and we've got the Word of God really instilled in these people 00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:33.400 to the degree that they can recognize heresy, you know, they might not be great Bible teachers, 00:40:33.540 --> 00:40:36.480 but they can recognize a heresy when they see it. 00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:42.180 So now go with what you have and let's teach you on-the-job training. 00:40:44.120 --> 00:40:51.880 You know, let's see what you can do with three or four people that in your circle of influence that you reach out to. 00:40:53.720 --> 00:40:56.020 What's the – and you've hinted a little bit. 00:40:56.080 --> 00:40:57.920 You've talked about, you know, maybe some lessons. 00:40:58.060 --> 00:41:03.740 I think Terry, the man who was the head usher that kind of transferred over. 00:41:04.460 --> 00:41:05.980 What's the secret to multiplication? 00:41:06.400 --> 00:41:07.700 There's probably no silver bullet. 00:41:07.820 --> 00:41:08.660 There's no easy answer. 00:41:08.820 --> 00:41:09.000 Cool. 00:41:09.200 --> 00:41:10.140 What's the easy answer? 00:41:11.300 --> 00:41:16.300 What would be the thing that at least as we're starting this, as we're considering it, 00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:23.260 as we're trying to understand, okay, if we can really figure out how to get one person to disciple another person 00:41:23.260 --> 00:41:25.820 to the point that they would disciple someone else. 00:41:26.260 --> 00:41:27.040 Interesting story. 00:41:27.100 --> 00:41:27.700 Side note. 00:41:27.700 --> 00:41:29.340 I don't think I've said this on a podcast yet. 00:41:29.780 --> 00:41:30.380 Seth Godin. 00:41:31.240 --> 00:41:34.440 He's a famous marketer at this point. 00:41:34.520 --> 00:41:35.340 Somebody asked him. 00:41:35.660 --> 00:41:36.860 I love this story. 00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:44.740 Somebody asked him on a podcast, hey, if what platforms should I use to get my message heard around the world? 00:41:45.400 --> 00:41:53.660 What the person was actually asking is, what's the social media networks that would be most valuable to the day? 00:41:54.260 --> 00:41:57.500 2020, this is pre-coronavirus, maybe two months ago, three months ago. 00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:02.720 What Seth answered wasn't that question. 00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:08.220 What he really answered is, okay, if you want a message heard by around the world, 00:42:08.700 --> 00:42:12.580 you're not going to tell a billion people a single message. 00:42:12.900 --> 00:42:14.020 Those people aren't interested. 00:42:14.680 --> 00:42:16.400 100 million aren't interested. 00:42:16.600 --> 00:42:18.000 10 million aren't even interested. 00:42:18.160 --> 00:42:19.260 You're probably not going to find a million. 00:42:19.800 --> 00:42:26.200 100,000, 10,000, you know, numbers aren't, the mass numbers aren't as important as telling an individual. 00:42:26.860 --> 00:42:37.440 Tell the smallest number of people possible and then getting them to tell others and then getting them to tell others rather than going big. 00:42:38.540 --> 00:42:43.440 And this is, this is a, Seth Godin's Jewish, like not, not a Christian. 00:42:43.660 --> 00:42:53.780 And in a very simple way, literally just described discipleship on a marketing podcast to talk about how to be effective in business. 00:42:54.020 --> 00:43:02.580 And this Jewish guy with no grounding in faith is telling you, hey, this is what the, literally it's the same thing Jesus is talking about. 00:43:02.720 --> 00:43:05.480 To this point of tell someone to tell someone to tell someone. 00:43:06.300 --> 00:43:13.820 So my question is just from, from as whatever practical advice you can give, how do you do that? 00:43:14.100 --> 00:43:18.900 You're right on Jeff in, in underscoring how Jesus did it. 00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:30.260 And Seth, who I agree is one of the world's greatest marketers and understanding of how businesses really distribute and disperse their products. 00:43:32.460 --> 00:43:39.380 And Jesus could have done his ministry any way that he wanted to, with all power and authority. 00:43:39.380 --> 00:43:45.880 And he could have sat down in Jerusalem and just held crusade after crusade, service after service. 00:43:45.980 --> 00:43:51.300 But, you know, the New Testament shows us that 75 to 80% of the time he spent with 12 people or less. 00:43:52.060 --> 00:43:57.500 And it was, it wasn't because he was against crowds. 00:43:57.780 --> 00:43:59.880 He definitely would gather crowds at times. 00:43:59.880 --> 00:44:06.280 So we know that, but, uh, the big crowd at the start of John six was gone by the end of John chapter six. 00:44:06.280 --> 00:44:09.000 And he asked his own disciples, are you guys going to leave too? 00:44:09.700 --> 00:44:19.240 And, um, but his, his, his model, his strategy was to go deep with a few who would be contagious. 00:44:19.240 --> 00:44:37.780 And this is, this is, this is, this, there's no secret to multiplication, but until you become convinced that multiplication is worth the time and the energy and effort to do, you'll keep reaching for addition. 00:44:38.180 --> 00:44:46.280 And church leaders reach for addition and there's practical reasons why, um, financially is, is the biggest one. 00:44:46.280 --> 00:44:57.780 In order to have a church plant that's financially viable, you have to have a certain number of givers that immediately pushes you towards addition and away from multiplication and how you do your ministry. 00:44:57.780 --> 00:45:14.720 So there's some practical realities, um, but probably the biggest, the biggest reality that's a holdback is that we just don't become convinced that Jesus's way is the way that really needs to be followed for gospel saturation of this world. 00:45:15.240 --> 00:45:29.000 And, uh, to do it means that we have to die to sell Jesus talking about himself being buried, but also talking about a believer that dies to themselves says, unless a, unless a seed falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone. 00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:33.200 But if it dies, it produces a whole harvest. 00:45:33.920 --> 00:45:44.620 And so most pastors aren't willing just to die to their own ego, to their own desire to be the guy, um, and to grow the big thing. 00:45:45.240 --> 00:46:09.560 And until you're convinced of the power of multiplication and until you're willing to die to your own, to your own ego and, and, um, and just what comes in the church world these days in America, when you grow something big, until you can die to that, you don't really live fully into multiplication. 00:46:10.220 --> 00:46:21.900 And the, and the, the other thing that I would just say, and, and just, just quickly is just Acts two, three has become really, really important to me because it's something that I hadn't seen before. 00:46:22.560 --> 00:46:27.200 And, you know, in Acts two, the Holy spirit comes in the church's birth. 00:46:27.200 --> 00:46:35.080 And it's such a seminal moment, such a instructive moment for us as to how this ministry of Jesus is going to be carried out. 00:46:35.080 --> 00:46:37.880 So you've got the 120 in the upper room. 00:46:38.600 --> 00:46:46.880 And, uh, one of the manifestations is in verse three is when the Holy spirit comes down, uh, into that upper room. 00:46:46.880 --> 00:46:48.360 But a lot of people miss. 00:46:48.360 --> 00:46:55.920 And I did the fact that it says in verse three, that it distributed itself and came to rest on the head of every believer. 00:46:56.300 --> 00:47:03.100 So you had 120 ordinary folks with the fire of the Holy spirit on their head. 00:47:03.560 --> 00:47:10.720 And it says, and they were filled with the Holy spirit verse four, and they began to speak in languages that they'd never learned. 00:47:10.940 --> 00:47:16.780 All of them did, which those languages, uh, were just proclaiming the wonders of God. 00:47:16.780 --> 00:47:22.740 It says, which was, uh, this, this platform for the gospel to spread through right there. 00:47:23.100 --> 00:47:30.400 In other words, God was using all 120 of these ordinary people because the fire, the flame was on their head. 00:47:30.540 --> 00:47:37.400 And most pastors look out at their church, church folks and say, they don't see people with flames on their head. 00:47:37.480 --> 00:47:39.180 They don't believe in their potential. 00:47:39.460 --> 00:47:42.180 We really don't believe in the priesthood of all believers. 00:47:42.180 --> 00:47:57.840 We, we say theologically we do, but then again, it comes back to what I said before we equip them for works of ministry within the church instead of, uh, a work of gospel and ministry proclamation with the power of the Holy spirit. 00:47:58.120 --> 00:48:10.020 Multiplication doesn't happen until ordinary people, uh, understand that they are filled with the spirit and the pastor and leaders really believe that and call them up to that empowerment level. 00:48:11.580 --> 00:48:13.740 That gets messy though, right? 00:48:14.960 --> 00:48:19.760 Because, and let, let, let's park on this for a second, because I, I feel that tension. 00:48:19.960 --> 00:48:22.740 Part of me, it depends on what hat I'm wearing. 00:48:22.860 --> 00:48:25.420 The church planner, let's unleash them. 00:48:25.540 --> 00:48:26.640 Let's empower them. 00:48:26.740 --> 00:48:29.900 Let's let them go, go forth people. 00:48:29.900 --> 00:48:30.240 Right? 00:48:30.320 --> 00:48:31.880 Like that, that's, that's the goal. 00:48:32.200 --> 00:48:35.120 The, you know, I'm putting on my, my manager side. 00:48:35.420 --> 00:48:37.020 You can't do that. 00:48:37.100 --> 00:48:38.820 That's not what we do here. 00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:40.820 That's not what we call discipleship. 00:48:40.920 --> 00:48:41.580 Change that. 00:48:42.160 --> 00:48:46.420 You said something in, in, in, in, in, so I sat in, in your session. 00:48:46.480 --> 00:48:50.160 The first time I met you was, was at first Orlando at the exponential conference. 00:48:50.280 --> 00:48:52.640 The only time I met you, it makes it sound like I've seen you all the time. 00:48:53.680 --> 00:48:56.880 And that was like, it was a long time ago. 00:48:57.300 --> 00:48:59.200 We go way back a month ago. 00:48:59.860 --> 00:49:01.660 This, this has felt like a decade. 00:49:01.780 --> 00:49:04.120 Honestly, this past has been crazy. 00:49:04.640 --> 00:49:06.080 But you, you, you, you said this thing. 00:49:06.140 --> 00:49:10.920 You were like, you don't, don't set the bar too high, but you don't set the bar too, too low. 00:49:11.240 --> 00:49:21.980 So when it comes to like ecclesiology church, like unpack that a little bit because you, you want to, you want to release people, but you don't want to release bad theology. 00:49:22.140 --> 00:49:27.840 How do you manage that, that, that tension as we're releasing these people out? 00:49:28.840 --> 00:49:32.300 Yeah, there's two questions there, Jeff. 00:49:32.480 --> 00:49:42.300 Uh, one in relationship to ecclesiology and one in relationship to, um, empowerment and release of, of, of, of the believers. 00:49:42.820 --> 00:49:56.460 And, um, so as it relates to releasing people into the work of ministry, like I said before, to me, it's okay if that's messy. 00:49:56.460 --> 00:50:14.020 If they're accountable, if, if they're a person that has the humility to submit to the leadership and guidance of those that are more spiritually mature than them, because I, I'm known for throwing a hundred things on the wall and seeing which ones stick. 00:50:14.680 --> 00:50:24.240 Um, but I don't send out people unless they have a submissive spirit to spiritual authority. 00:50:24.660 --> 00:50:26.520 I don't mind if they're a maverick. 00:50:26.580 --> 00:50:31.360 In fact, we have a saying in our staff, um, I reward mavericks and remove rebels. 00:50:32.300 --> 00:50:41.720 And, uh, a maverick is somebody who thinks different than me and is willing to try things different than me and, and, and may even try things opposite of me. 00:50:41.800 --> 00:50:56.180 Um, but they have this spirit of submission and humility, um, to the word of God and to spiritual leadership, but a rebel, um, they don't have that same kind of, of spirit. 00:50:56.400 --> 00:51:10.680 So in terms of unleashing people, uh, I want to know that as they go, that they're remaining in this humble posture, uh, of, of a learner, uh, versus a, you know, Hey, I can teach whatever I want. 00:51:10.680 --> 00:51:20.480 And that kind of guards, um, uh, against, uh, heresy because now, uh, it, uh, accountability is all, we're always relationally driven. 00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:24.980 So as long as you're in relationship with them, I give them a lot of freedom. 00:51:24.980 --> 00:51:29.320 Uh, but once they break that relationship, then there's, uh, then there's a problem. 00:51:29.960 --> 00:51:33.060 Um, but then, yeah. 00:51:33.140 --> 00:51:50.020 And then we can talk if, if you want to about the ecclesiology part, because that's where the bar can get set so high that, uh, your average Joe doesn't have a chance or so low that you have something less than the church, but you're calling it church. 00:51:50.380 --> 00:51:51.980 I've, I've got a church I work with. 00:51:51.980 --> 00:52:00.580 Uh, it's a multi-site two, three thousand people attending physical campuses, um, pre-coronavirus. 00:52:01.640 --> 00:52:08.980 And, um, uh, one of the things that this, this church is doing, this church is trying to figure out a, a discipleship strategy. 00:52:08.980 --> 00:52:09.360 Right. 00:52:09.660 --> 00:52:13.880 And so, because they're, they're wanting to, they understand the need of multiplication. 00:52:14.560 --> 00:52:19.660 Um, they're understanding that they need to take some philosophical shifts in that. 00:52:19.660 --> 00:52:27.280 And so part of this strategy has become, uh, separate groups that are encouraged to meet together. 00:52:27.280 --> 00:52:49.620 And actually was part of a, of a, a virtual meeting online where it was a two hour zoom call that if, if I were to have a list and you've got a list in your book, uh, and the, the organization that we're working through has their own list, but it's the nine or 10 ecclesiological, the biblical functions of a church, um, listed there. 00:52:49.620 --> 00:52:55.540 And so I experienced all 10 of those nine or 10, whatever it was on a zoom call. 00:52:56.320 --> 00:52:57.460 Um, okay. 00:52:57.560 --> 00:52:58.480 How'd you worship? 00:52:58.860 --> 00:53:01.680 Worship was the most powerful experience I've had in a month. 00:53:01.840 --> 00:53:02.320 Wow. 00:53:02.400 --> 00:53:06.900 Where it was centered around a Hillsong YouTube video being played. 00:53:07.060 --> 00:53:13.000 And I sat there and listened to it, praying without interruption for 10 minutes. 00:53:13.340 --> 00:53:14.240 It was a long song. 00:53:14.360 --> 00:53:15.500 Hillsong does long songs. 00:53:15.620 --> 00:53:16.400 Everybody knows that. 00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:16.740 They do. 00:53:17.040 --> 00:53:17.360 They're good. 00:53:17.380 --> 00:53:20.240 But it was, and it was, it was stop. 00:53:20.960 --> 00:53:31.820 And in the midst of, for whatever the reason, and God spoke in to me in ways because, because I, it wasn't convenient for me to stop. 00:53:31.820 --> 00:53:47.260 It wasn't convenient for me to, to take this break and dedicate two hours of my day towards this literal online church service, but I made myself do it. 00:53:47.260 --> 00:53:55.300 And God spoke in the midst of it, worship, giving prayer on mission, teaching, all of this was done. 00:53:55.300 --> 00:54:03.780 And the, the, the accountability, the, the sharing, um, this was all done in context of, of this, this virtual service. 00:54:04.400 --> 00:54:12.600 Now it's, what's interesting is this is, this was actually done with some campus pastors of the church that, that, um, um, that, that, that I'm helping out here. 00:54:12.740 --> 00:54:19.780 And, and, and so like, we all are used to the normal church service, but then we're, we're doing this other thing to just even experiment. 00:54:20.040 --> 00:54:21.900 What is a different ecclesiology? 00:54:22.260 --> 00:54:24.940 What would a different model of, of church look like? 00:54:25.540 --> 00:54:27.700 Um, some of them are comfortable with it. 00:54:27.880 --> 00:54:32.140 Some of them are like, this is, this is, I'm not, I'm not really comfortable with this because I'm used to the other. 00:54:32.780 --> 00:54:36.260 How do you balance maybe some of that tension? 00:54:36.360 --> 00:54:39.520 You're a church, you're planning multiple, you're training people on mission. 00:54:39.840 --> 00:54:44.700 You're, you're wanting them to be on kingdom mission, going out and doing these things. 00:54:44.700 --> 00:54:50.560 You're, you're freeing them up, but there's this, there's this tension of, okay, the thing that we're freeing them up. 00:54:50.560 --> 00:54:53.260 Isn't the thing that, that we're justifying. 00:54:53.480 --> 00:54:56.780 And it's much easier if we just had everything look cookie cutter. 00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:00.780 How, how, how do you get past not being cookie cutter? 00:55:00.780 --> 00:55:06.480 Well, I was lost in your illustration of your experience and, uh, that's so powerful, Jeff. 00:55:06.680 --> 00:55:28.260 And, and I think that you telling that story is, is a story that needs to be told because others are having that same experience when, um, more, um, older folks like me are skeptical of the online church. 00:55:28.520 --> 00:55:35.960 They can't deny people's testimonies of what God is doing in, in expressions like the one that you encountered. 00:55:36.680 --> 00:55:51.940 And, um, I think it, it, to me, it comes back to what I mentioned earlier about the wind blowing where God wants it to blow and you don't control the wind. 00:55:52.060 --> 00:55:54.380 You're just taken along by the wind. 00:55:54.660 --> 00:55:56.740 Jesus said that in John three. 00:55:56.740 --> 00:56:11.040 And I think we're in one of those moments within, in the church and, and there are going to be some people who plant their feet on the wrong place and won't move with the wind. 00:56:11.040 --> 00:56:23.660 And now I believe we have to have our feet planted firmly on scripture and we don't want to move, um, but there are, there are places the Holy Spirit is wanting to move churches. 00:56:25.500 --> 00:56:31.400 Like your experience that I think we need to be open to and embrace and that's not going to look cookie cutter. 00:56:31.980 --> 00:56:39.600 You see, I'm, I'm back to that scorecard because if you, you don't need the Holy Spirit to build in the big church. 00:56:39.840 --> 00:56:48.100 Uh, you can do that through corporate strategies and the right person, the right leadership models, et cetera. 00:56:48.880 --> 00:56:52.980 Um, I'm not saying that churches, most churches are built that way. 00:56:52.980 --> 00:56:54.380 I'm just saying you can do that. 00:56:54.380 --> 00:57:11.320 You can build what you call that church, but the Holy Spirit wants to blow with these new expressions of the church that, uh, and our digital platforms give us a whole new avenue for the creativity of the Holy Spirit. 00:57:11.560 --> 00:57:21.580 So how you engage with that as a church, um, like I said, I'm just, I'm just barely getting my toes wet in the water. 00:57:21.580 --> 00:57:37.840 I mean, you're, you've been swimming in this water and man, I'm, I'm just, I'm just getting my toes wet, but this is the, I think you're going to see, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, after this, uh, crisis, a lot more variety in the expressions of the church in America. 00:57:37.840 --> 00:57:45.080 At least I'm praying so, and we need to be embracing that without moving our feet, uh, from the word of God. 00:57:45.500 --> 00:57:47.000 I call it the cat move. 00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:54.120 If you ever push a, a cat, not too hard, but a lot of times they'll just plant their feet, but their whole body will move. 00:57:54.220 --> 00:57:57.080 Uh, they'll just morph around that new pressure. 00:57:57.500 --> 00:58:08.080 And in, in, in a similar way, the church in this moment has to be willing to bend if they try and, uh, without moving their feet, we have to be willing to flex to this new reality that we're in. 00:58:08.480 --> 00:58:13.520 Otherwise, um, we're going to go, um, backwards in our effectiveness instead of forward. 00:58:13.940 --> 00:58:16.820 That's a great word and a, and a great illustration right there. 00:58:16.920 --> 00:58:18.400 Stay, stay grounded in the word. 00:58:19.040 --> 00:58:21.860 Um, keep that as, as the foundation of it. 00:58:22.280 --> 00:58:28.980 Um, and, and, and some of the, the functions and the things morph shape around you. 00:58:29.040 --> 00:58:31.240 You're still structured where you need to be. 00:58:31.240 --> 00:58:34.060 You're still rooted on, onto that, that foundation. 00:58:34.060 --> 00:58:41.400 I'm mixing analogies there, but you're, you're still built on that foundation, but you're, you're shaping as, as necessary. 00:58:41.400 --> 00:58:55.100 Um, you know, one of the, one of the arguments and even within online pastors, um, when I talk about a digital only ecclesiology, I've actually been, um, yeah, I'll say it. 00:58:55.100 --> 00:59:04.120 I've been yelled at by online pastors, people that do ministry online saying you can't, you can't do on, you can't do online only. 00:59:04.120 --> 00:59:10.560 You have to have the physical, uh, and some of it's, you know, uh, tradition they're, they're kind of rooted in. 00:59:11.180 --> 00:59:13.420 Um, some of it, you know, one of them was ironic. 00:59:13.420 --> 00:59:16.540 One of the persons was like, yeah, well, my dad was, it was a, was a pastor. 00:59:16.640 --> 00:59:17.060 I'm a PK. 00:59:17.480 --> 00:59:21.420 And I'm like, yeah, so you've been grounded in this for like 30 years, 40 years. 00:59:21.420 --> 00:59:25.220 Like, do you think maybe you could think differently about it and it would change your worldview? 00:59:25.220 --> 00:59:32.680 And, and the person's like, yeah, you know what I, I do, I can see where that's opinion and, and it's not, you know, grounded in that, in that theology. 00:59:33.380 --> 00:59:43.920 But the idea of, of a different model that may work for, for some people, but not necessarily all of them, to me, that's my prayer for the church. 00:59:44.560 --> 00:59:58.100 Um, I, I don't, I, I would be foolish to say church online, uh, a digital church model, model, a fidgetal blended church model, uh, a high church model, a low church. 00:59:58.100 --> 01:00:03.200 It would be silly to pick one model and to say, this is the best for the, for the church. 01:00:03.200 --> 01:00:11.540 I mean, even pre-coronavirus across the country, Korea had, uh, giga churches that were, were making huge movements. 01:00:11.760 --> 01:00:15.740 Uh, India, China was, was house churches and micro locations. 01:00:16.240 --> 01:00:20.980 India is like people sitting under a four tree, under a, uh, four people under a palm tree. 01:00:21.340 --> 01:00:30.700 So, like, the church looks different, but it's grounded in, in, in that, in that same biblical foundation, in those biblical functions. 01:00:31.400 --> 01:00:38.520 And so, to, just to close, like, I would suggest that's the, that's the challenge for the church in this coronavirus season. 01:00:39.060 --> 01:00:40.800 Stay grounded in that word. 01:00:41.440 --> 01:00:43.560 And, and post-coronavirus season. 01:00:44.180 --> 01:00:47.560 You know, I, I wrote a blog on this, just, just this recently. 01:00:47.660 --> 01:00:48.460 I think it was last week. 01:00:48.820 --> 01:00:51.840 I, I think the church is broken right now. 01:00:52.540 --> 01:00:55.280 Not God's church, the models. 01:00:55.540 --> 01:00:57.720 I, I think the models are broken. 01:00:58.460 --> 01:01:02.960 Um, and, and, and I don't want to put words in God's mouth, but God's in control of this. 01:01:03.240 --> 01:01:06.640 And, and, and which means God broke the models. 01:01:07.280 --> 01:01:14.840 What, what's interesting is that if God's breaking us, then God will put us back together if we stay true to him. 01:01:16.140 --> 01:01:20.640 But if he's going to put us back exactly the way we were before, then why did he break us in the first place? 01:01:21.840 --> 01:01:23.760 I think there's an opportunity here. 01:01:24.440 --> 01:01:31.860 If we're truly broken by God, humbled by him, staying true to his word, everything that you said in this podcast. 01:01:32.560 --> 01:01:40.480 We have an incredible opportunity to, to shape what the church is in a whole different way. 01:01:40.840 --> 01:01:42.920 But, better yet, we don't have the opportunity to shape it. 01:01:43.000 --> 01:01:44.560 God has the opportunity to shape it. 01:01:45.300 --> 01:01:48.700 And, and through that, I think we are going to be in a far better place. 01:01:49.140 --> 01:01:51.860 As long as we're seeking him, staying in tune to him. 01:01:52.520 --> 01:01:58.240 And, and, and girding ourselves on what we're learning in scripture and what these standards are. 01:01:58.240 --> 01:02:04.680 Whether that's a digital only church, whether that's a, a digital blended church model, whether that's physical only. 01:02:05.160 --> 01:02:08.220 If it's a cowboy church, if it's a, if it's a millennial church, whatever. 01:02:08.800 --> 01:02:11.680 You know, it's, cause it's, all that's just method. 01:02:11.920 --> 01:02:15.560 All that's just, you know, marketing and, and, and spin and process. 01:02:15.920 --> 01:02:19.080 It's, it's the scripture part that, that's so important. 01:02:19.420 --> 01:02:21.720 Well, I tell you what, I, I just preached a sermon right there. 01:02:21.780 --> 01:02:22.140 So I'm sorry. 01:02:22.400 --> 01:02:22.520 I loved it. 01:02:22.560 --> 01:02:23.640 I was saying, amen, Jeff. 01:02:23.840 --> 01:02:25.000 I was like, preach, brother. 01:02:25.240 --> 01:02:25.360 Preach. 01:02:25.360 --> 01:02:27.520 I appreciate that. 01:02:27.520 --> 01:02:29.560 I, people are like, you should be a preacher. 01:02:29.680 --> 01:02:31.420 I'm like, you've not heard me preach. 01:02:31.540 --> 01:02:32.760 My sermons are awful. 01:02:33.200 --> 01:02:35.060 Like my topics on this are good. 01:02:35.060 --> 01:02:37.960 Cause this is my wheelhouse, but ask me to preach on James too. 01:02:38.040 --> 01:02:38.660 Not so much. 01:02:39.500 --> 01:02:41.820 Well, Hey, this, this has been a great podcast. 01:02:41.960 --> 01:02:46.220 I really, I utmost respect for you and your work. 01:02:46.240 --> 01:02:52.420 And I appreciate your time jumping on here and having a conversation, talking about multiplication, 01:02:52.940 --> 01:02:57.240 discipleship, some of the, the, the tensions that, that you're feeling. 01:02:57.240 --> 01:03:01.640 We're going to continue to pray for y'all out, out in California, just as we are everywhere 01:03:01.640 --> 01:03:09.300 else, trying to understand how best to overcome the, this, the situation we are, you know, 01:03:09.360 --> 01:03:15.420 while we're broken doing what we can, but, but staying in tuned and focused to what God 01:03:15.420 --> 01:03:16.100 has for us. 01:03:16.100 --> 01:03:20.920 So, and Larry, any thoughts as we're landing the plane, anything on your side? 01:03:21.380 --> 01:03:28.120 Yeah, I, I just, I just would say this is opening up whole new avenues for the gospel 01:03:28.120 --> 01:03:29.760 to flow through. 01:03:30.580 --> 01:03:37.180 And church leaders that wanted, wanted to go back to the old normal as quickly as possible 01:03:37.180 --> 01:03:41.720 are going to miss what the Holy Spirit is saying in this moment. 01:03:42.260 --> 01:03:48.420 What I agree with you, we're in a moment of brokenness and we need to let the spirit break 01:03:48.420 --> 01:03:48.580 us. 01:03:48.640 --> 01:03:52.360 I talk about it as being the, the texture of the clay. 01:03:53.040 --> 01:03:58.960 This, this, this crisis that we're in is God is wanting to soften the clay so he can put 01:03:58.960 --> 01:04:05.500 his fingers deep in the, in the clay of the church and reshape it into a more effective 01:04:05.500 --> 01:04:06.140 vessel. 01:04:06.360 --> 01:04:08.880 The, the wine in it's going to be the same. 01:04:09.080 --> 01:04:13.600 The treasure in it is Christ alone, but to reshape the vessel. 01:04:13.600 --> 01:04:19.520 But if we don't get soft in his hands during this time and just hold on to the old, we won't 01:04:19.520 --> 01:04:22.920 have the new wineskin that he wants to build out of this. 01:04:23.620 --> 01:04:27.560 And while this is not ideal, this time is not ideal. 01:04:28.260 --> 01:04:34.500 It's right now real and God's going to work in this time, but he's also going to work through 01:04:34.500 --> 01:04:38.220 this time into a new effectiveness for the church. 01:04:38.280 --> 01:04:39.080 And that's what I'm believing. 01:04:40.760 --> 01:04:41.160 Yeah. 01:04:41.240 --> 01:04:45.320 So that blog that I said that I wrote, what he just said is so much more eloquently stated 01:04:45.320 --> 01:04:46.280 than what I did. 01:04:46.360 --> 01:04:46.900 So ignore it. 01:04:47.100 --> 01:04:49.360 Don't go to the link in the show notes about my blog. 01:04:49.480 --> 01:04:51.660 Just listen, back it up like four minutes. 01:04:51.760 --> 01:04:56.820 Listen to what he just said, because I think I tried to say the same thing, but you, you, 01:04:56.820 --> 01:04:57.660 you nailed that. 01:04:57.740 --> 01:05:00.800 I'm a, I'm a tech guy, just wearing a different hat. 01:05:00.920 --> 01:05:05.260 So Larry, thank you much for jumping on this podcast and join us today. 01:05:05.820 --> 01:05:08.160 For Larry, I'm Jeff with the church digital podcast. 01:05:08.280 --> 01:05:10.280 Thanks for being here and we'll see you next time on the show. 01:05:10.380 --> 01:05:10.900 Y'all have a good day.