WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.760 Hey, it's Jeff, and you got episode 66 of the Church Digital Podcast, powered by Stadia Church 00:00:06.760 --> 00:00:11.500 Planning. We're going to wrap up a series we're doing here in this episode, and it's a long 00:00:11.500 --> 00:00:16.880 episode, so I'm just going to get right to it. We're exploring the idea of what a digital church 00:00:16.880 --> 00:00:23.460 looks like. And for several episodes here, this is the third part. We've been doing a deep dive 00:00:23.460 --> 00:00:28.240 into the biblical ecclesiology, into the biblical functions of what a digital church should be. So 00:00:28.240 --> 00:00:33.820 check out the show notes. Episode 65, we talked about fellowship. Episode, well, I think it was way 00:00:33.820 --> 00:00:39.280 back, it was like episode 50, maybe. We actually talked in greater detail about worship, about 00:00:39.280 --> 00:00:45.400 teaching, about giving, and about some of those things that really contextually make church church. 00:00:45.480 --> 00:00:49.780 At least that's the perception of what makes church church. What's interesting in this conversation 00:00:49.780 --> 00:00:57.180 today, this third part, we really start to get into the granular details of things that don't often 00:00:57.180 --> 00:01:05.240 come up in conversation. Justice, compassion, local missions, being on mission at a personal level. 00:01:05.340 --> 00:01:10.600 While we're in this season of being digital-only church, it's really interesting. How much of this 00:01:10.600 --> 00:01:16.820 granular level detail are we seeing? Are we as a church expressing compassion in this season? Yes or 00:01:16.820 --> 00:01:24.100 no? Are we expressing justice? Yes or no? Are we expressing, how are we serving the communities that 00:01:24.100 --> 00:01:32.160 we're in locally? Yes or no? What does it look like? And it's fascinating how maybe, maybe even today, as 00:01:32.160 --> 00:01:37.240 we've thrown digital church together as quick as we could, thank you very much, COVID-19, maybe we're 00:01:37.240 --> 00:01:43.400 still missing some of what this looks like digitally. And as we're landing the plane here on this series, 00:01:43.400 --> 00:01:48.640 we're going to bring in a bunch of online pastors again, talking about this idea, landing the plane 00:01:48.640 --> 00:01:54.180 on the biblical functions of a digital church. So we're bringing in Ian Kirk, Generations Community Church 00:01:54.180 --> 00:01:59.740 Online Pastor, Jason Morris, Global Innovations Pastor of Westside Family, Joey Santos, Christ Church. 00:02:00.060 --> 00:02:05.480 We're bringing in Jade Earhart, digital pastor over at LoveClan, myself, Jeff, and the church, digital. 00:02:06.140 --> 00:02:11.560 In a conversation that I'm calling, yeah, this is all the stuff that we forgot to do when COVID came, 00:02:12.200 --> 00:02:19.020 or otherwise known as biblical functions of a digital church, part three. Okay, everybody, here you go. 00:02:19.420 --> 00:02:23.960 Number six on this list, disciple making. Disciple making. 00:02:24.100 --> 00:02:30.260 Yeah, I mean, I define it, a disciple is somebody that hears and follows God, and a disciple maker is 00:02:30.260 --> 00:02:36.580 somebody that helps somebody else hear and follow God. You know, just to put it as plainly as possible. 00:02:37.820 --> 00:02:47.380 And so if, in an online setting, what is, what is that, again, what does that look like? 00:02:48.600 --> 00:02:57.460 I, I can't help but think of Paul as an example. And I like that you mentioned earlier, you know, 00:02:57.520 --> 00:03:03.760 that Paul said, I wish I could be with you, but I'm there in spirit. And, you know, how does he 00:03:03.760 --> 00:03:09.360 communicate that? How does, how does, how do they know that he's, that he wants to be there in spirit? 00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:13.800 How does, how do they know that? They know that because he wrote them a letter. 00:03:14.440 --> 00:03:19.200 And he sent it non-physically, while he was in jail to them. You know what I'm saying? 00:03:19.580 --> 00:03:24.960 Is it's like, it's crazy, because even at the very beginning stages of this, if Paul had the ability 00:03:24.960 --> 00:03:28.180 to send an email, do you think he would have done it? Instead of writing that letter. 00:03:29.860 --> 00:03:33.600 Do you think that Paul would have zoomed those people and said, man, I really wish I could be 00:03:33.600 --> 00:03:38.160 with you. Too bad I only have pen and paper. I could use zoom, but I don't think that's a good 00:03:38.160 --> 00:03:43.680 way for me to meet with you. You know, I, I think I'll just use pen and paper because this is better 00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:49.760 spiritually. I, it's crazy to me, like the, the thinking that must go on to, to come to the 00:03:49.760 --> 00:03:56.200 conclusion, to use something that Paul wrote with pen and paper, and then handed to somebody else to 00:03:56.200 --> 00:04:02.620 deliver, and then use that as an excuse for why people can't do some of these things or can't 00:04:02.620 --> 00:04:10.040 encourage other people without being there physically. Is it's like, do you not, do you not 00:04:10.040 --> 00:04:17.280 see the, like how much that doesn't make sense? You know, it's crazy to me, but I, but Matthew 28, 00:04:17.380 --> 00:04:22.380 19, 20, go therefore, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, 00:04:22.380 --> 00:04:26.860 the Son, the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I've commanded you. And behold, 00:04:26.900 --> 00:04:31.940 I'm with you until, always until the end of the age, right? Okay. So if that is our, if that is our 00:04:31.940 --> 00:04:38.100 great commission, we said even, you know, whatever, expose that, that's the key verse. And that's how 00:04:38.100 --> 00:04:44.420 can we do that together as a, as a church? The, there are, there are things that are very specific 00:04:44.420 --> 00:04:50.920 in there about disciples that, you know, you baptize them. Okay. So how do you baptize an 00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:57.400 online exclusive? Again, I think there's reasons for physical, like I, I, I think that there is 00:04:57.400 --> 00:05:04.160 something important about baptizing somebody physically only because I see also the, you know, 00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:09.360 that, the, the laying on of hands and the receiving of the Holy Spirit. There's, there is something where 00:05:09.360 --> 00:05:14.000 it says they were baptized in the name of Jesus. Um, and that they didn't receive the spirit, 00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:18.300 you know? And so I don't, you know, that's something to wrestle with. Um, and so I do, 00:05:18.420 --> 00:05:25.320 I do actually like the idea of physically baptizing somebody. Um, but even that, I, I think I would 00:05:25.320 --> 00:05:29.440 still say we have to figure out if that, if that's something that there's a why of why we do this, 00:05:29.440 --> 00:05:33.740 or if it's something we've been commanded, I land more on the commanded side for that one. 00:05:33.740 --> 00:05:42.740 But the, the, um, the, the specific there on, uh, you know, go into all nations. 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:50.540 How, how, when have we had a better opportunity to do that guys, you know, then right now where I can 00:05:50.540 --> 00:05:55.500 just call somebody up. I have somebody from India sending me Facebook messages asking because he's 00:05:55.500 --> 00:06:01.260 just overwhelmed that there's so many people that he's discipling. And he's just like, I give me any 00:06:01.260 --> 00:06:06.780 resources. I'll take anything. Just zoom me anytime. Call me, you know? And it's like, that's crazy. 00:06:06.960 --> 00:06:11.960 You know, I can't go to, I mean, I could, I don't have the money, but I can't just fly over to India 00:06:11.960 --> 00:06:17.280 and go, you know, but in, in 10 seconds, I can be connected with this guy. And, and a lot of our 00:06:17.280 --> 00:06:21.820 excuses fly out the window where if somebody's saying, you know, well, why are you doing this in a 00:06:21.820 --> 00:06:27.080 virtual space? It's almost like, I mean, you better be just slamming in your physical space then 00:06:27.080 --> 00:06:32.120 because there's no longer any excuses. Like if you're not, you don't have a flight every day, 00:06:32.220 --> 00:06:36.980 I don't know how you're getting to all nations. So anyway, I'll end it. I'll, I'll drop it there, 00:06:37.060 --> 00:06:42.100 but that, well, the one thing that I think I want to want to highlight here, and then we'll hand off 00:06:42.100 --> 00:06:47.520 to Ian. Sorry for cutting you off. Um, it's the priesthood of all believers, right? Like there, 00:06:47.520 --> 00:06:52.080 there's an implication here, and this may be something that a digital church even does better 00:06:52.080 --> 00:06:59.060 than the physical church would. Um, a digital church. I believe the strength of a digital church 00:06:59.060 --> 00:07:04.740 is an empowering an individual with that priesthood of all believers. It is, it is your job to go make 00:07:04.740 --> 00:07:11.420 disciples within your circle of influence. It's not your job to hand them an invite card and invite 00:07:11.420 --> 00:07:17.900 them to come sit in, in a service. Uh, it's your job to have those hard conversations. And I think that's 00:07:17.900 --> 00:07:22.800 really that generational aspect I was trying to communicate through earlier. The, the core of 00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:29.700 that is, man, I am empowering you, um, as, as the leader of a digital church, I'm empowering you 00:07:29.700 --> 00:07:35.200 to go out there and have that circle of influence, have those conversations. That's that. And that's 00:07:35.200 --> 00:07:40.460 the heart of like the online, the offline model, which is, which permeates through healthy church 00:07:40.460 --> 00:07:45.400 online. Thank you very much, Jay Cranda. But essentially it's, it's this idea that the gospel 00:07:45.400 --> 00:07:49.980 that we learn in the offline online world, the gospel that we learn in the online world 00:07:49.980 --> 00:07:55.240 affects our offline world. And if the only Christian that we are is in virtual spaces, 00:07:55.240 --> 00:08:01.900 then really we're no better at generating Christians and disciple makers than that one 00:08:01.900 --> 00:08:07.260 hour service on Sunday, where the only Christ they show is the one where they're sitting in the pew in 00:08:07.260 --> 00:08:13.280 the back of the room. And so the, if, if we're really trying to get to that 24 seven, then the people 00:08:13.280 --> 00:08:19.140 who are involved in this digital church need to be showing their Christ, need to be representing 00:08:19.140 --> 00:08:23.340 Christ in that physical space as well as in the virtual space. 00:08:23.660 --> 00:08:27.400 It's kind of interesting. We're going through these conversations and the fellowship, I was 00:08:27.400 --> 00:08:32.040 digging in and just listening to all you guys are saying, because it was so good. And I was like, 00:08:32.100 --> 00:08:46.720 man, I really have nothing to offer there. And I think it was so interesting to me is that even for us who have this 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:52.300 incredible opportunity to be in a digital environment all the time, that's what we do, 00:08:52.580 --> 00:08:56.360 we end up leaning back towards to trying to 00:08:56.360 --> 00:09:01.300 almost explain or justify how this can be in a way 00:09:01.300 --> 00:09:06.000 better or more efficient than the physical church today. 00:09:07.260 --> 00:09:15.620 And I, and I, and I really think I agree with Jeff that the, the, the best way for this to work is, has to look 00:09:15.620 --> 00:09:20.080 different. It has to, it, because some of those things are already happening. 00:09:20.500 --> 00:09:26.980 Um, I, I think, I think you understand what I'm saying. I'm not so concerned about the impact that this is going to have 00:09:26.980 --> 00:09:33.140 uh, in a local church because the local church has its purpose because that's what the name is local. 00:09:33.800 --> 00:09:39.220 And I think local pastors need to understand their role as a, as a pastor of a local church. 00:09:39.220 --> 00:09:47.240 I think, I think one of the things that digital church is going to be able to help is help pastors to have more like a local mindset 00:09:47.240 --> 00:09:52.460 instead of a global mindset and allow the digital church make that impact. 00:09:52.460 --> 00:09:57.780 Because the reality is when we go digital, we're automatically a global church. 00:09:58.180 --> 00:10:04.800 So discipleship is definitely going to look different because I'm now discipling somebody from India and Pakistan and the U.S. 00:10:05.100 --> 00:10:07.980 And there's a chance these people all may be in the same room. 00:10:09.420 --> 00:10:12.260 Uh, when we talk about fellowship, it's kind of interesting because 00:10:12.260 --> 00:10:16.140 we're fellowship with the global community, right? 00:10:16.200 --> 00:10:20.600 At times. And I think there'll be times where we're going to be fellowship with everybody from U.S. 00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:24.440 That's, that's great. But as I look at these discussions and I'm thinking, 00:10:25.720 --> 00:10:35.240 I think we need to one, help local churches, the physical church, to really redefine the importance of being local. 00:10:35.560 --> 00:10:38.440 Because the local community need that local church. 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:53.480 And allow the digital church to fulfill this global calling that the church has, but now we can do this in a much faster way to fulfill that. 00:10:53.480 --> 00:11:01.220 And that's going to look different. That's going to, that's going to shake some people up in terms of, I don't feel good how this, that's okay. 00:11:02.120 --> 00:11:07.400 That's, that's, that's the reason why we have the word innovation is going to, it's going to shake you up a little bit. 00:11:07.400 --> 00:11:09.400 It's going to, it's going to, it's going to, it's going to, it's going to get you there. 00:11:09.400 --> 00:11:14.020 So I think that's a big part of it for, for us. 00:11:14.020 --> 00:11:19.220 I think both fellowship and discipleship, oh man, and that's already happening. 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:22.620 Happening so many, I am absolutely right. 00:11:22.940 --> 00:11:24.540 This has been happening for decades. 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:34.000 But the reality is today we have this conversation here because the videos never had, never put the local church in check. 00:11:36.020 --> 00:11:43.520 And today the digital church, it creates this thing with local church because it was like, man, you're going to take people out of my church. 00:11:43.900 --> 00:11:47.880 People are going to step away from my, from my peels, out of my chairs. 00:11:48.040 --> 00:11:51.720 If we implement this thing, the videos that I'm watching at home, that's great. 00:11:51.720 --> 00:11:53.700 They're not taking my people away from my church. 00:11:54.720 --> 00:12:00.260 And I think that is, that is this environment that we are in. 00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:01.980 And I think we have the opportunity. 00:12:02.100 --> 00:12:14.420 I think we, in this, this conversation, as we talk about the digital churches, what discipleship looks like in a local church for the people, they're local and they're there and also need Jesus. 00:12:15.080 --> 00:12:24.160 And what's the job of the digital church that actually can take that and explode to a global environment? 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:27.880 Let's not jump too far ahead because that's 10. 00:12:30.040 --> 00:12:32.380 I think, Joey, you're, you're, you're, you're, no, no, no, no. 00:12:33.040 --> 00:12:40.740 Yeah, let's look at, and sorry, because I want to hand off, but yeah, let's, let's shift this up because I'm looking at, at 9, 10, and 11. 00:12:40.740 --> 00:12:54.960 9 is mission, 10 is what I would assume is, is, you know, being on mission, 10 is global missions, 11 is body ministry, which I'm considering, you know, ministry within the church body. 00:12:55.060 --> 00:13:01.200 When you look at this breakdowns of what, you know, discipleship and what fellowship looks like. 00:13:01.260 --> 00:13:04.560 Well, in a local church, we look at the specific meeting that we call fellowship. 00:13:04.880 --> 00:13:06.440 And then we go to our Bible class. 00:13:06.540 --> 00:13:07.920 That's what we call discipleship. 00:13:08.180 --> 00:13:13.140 And that in a digital church, all these 11 items happen in one setting, you know, one meeting. 00:13:13.240 --> 00:13:14.580 You can have all 11 of those. 00:13:14.580 --> 00:13:33.400 Yeah, I think that what Joey is touching on, and I think Jade and Ian, they, they were touching on this too, that I think, as I think about it, would be helpful to just take a little bit of a step back where we're looking at and trying to force this whole thing into a digital only expression. 00:13:34.020 --> 00:13:41.080 When the truth of the matter is, there is not any church that I know of that is physical only either. 00:13:41.680 --> 00:14:03.880 So when we're talking about, like, the prevailing model of church, show me an example that doesn't use a telephone, a cell phone, a PA system, electricity, that only meets without any TVs or anything, that exclusively is face-to-face, physical proximity ministry. 00:14:04.340 --> 00:14:05.540 I don't know of one. 00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:08.200 The truth of the matter is, is that there's a spectrum here. 00:14:08.700 --> 00:14:17.940 And it's not really a matter of is it digital only or physical only, because those things, honestly, I think are kind of straw man arguments, because they don't really exist. 00:14:18.580 --> 00:14:21.640 Most of us live in physical and digital at the same time. 00:14:21.920 --> 00:14:32.660 And I think the question is, where on that continuum is the most healthy for certain things or the most evangelistic for certain things? 00:14:32.820 --> 00:14:49.480 And I think when we get into, like, these other expressions of church, like 9, 10, and 11, you might find that on the spectrum, the digital expressions of church do a much better job, whereas maybe they're weak in other areas of the spectrum. 00:14:49.700 --> 00:14:50.340 Do you know what I'm saying? 00:14:50.540 --> 00:14:52.980 Yeah, let me speak to that a little bit. 00:14:53.060 --> 00:14:59.260 At least this is what's in my head, as I've heard that type of question and wrestle with it. 00:14:59.840 --> 00:15:06.320 The difference between, like, a physical church having a website, so therefore they have a digital strategy. 00:15:06.980 --> 00:15:14.000 When I talk about a digital church, I think what's in my head is looking at digital as a community. 00:15:14.500 --> 00:15:25.040 And so, to me, that, you know, Jay, what he's doing, he's looking at video gamers and reaching into a digital community of video gamers. 00:15:25.180 --> 00:15:26.320 Obviously, DJ Soto. 00:15:27.080 --> 00:15:30.260 And so, for me, that's kind of the difference. 00:15:30.560 --> 00:15:42.380 Not, yeah, listen, dude, I can give you the spiel right now why every church should have a digital strategy, one that works physically and one that works digitally and how it aligns together. 00:15:42.760 --> 00:15:49.980 And so, like, that is a completely separate conversation and one that I don't want to necessarily get into with this. 00:15:50.040 --> 00:15:57.400 Because with this particular conversation, I really want to target into this idea of digital community. 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:04.780 Now, what's interesting, going all the way back to, like, to Joey's point, where it all kind of meshes into one. 00:16:05.220 --> 00:16:07.160 Yeah, I kind of feel that as well. 00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:23.080 And if I'm looking at, you know, being on mission, serving in global missions, and then serving body ministry, which I'm taking contextually to mean serving the church, you know, and I don't mean to speak ill will. 00:16:23.220 --> 00:16:26.320 Maybe I'm out of context and you guys can speak up. 00:16:26.380 --> 00:16:34.440 But a lot of times, you know, serving in that body ministry is what I hear a lot of within the physical churches. 00:16:34.920 --> 00:16:40.540 Because it takes, you know, 200 greeters at a megachurch to greet everybody that's walking in. 00:16:40.920 --> 00:16:45.940 And you got to have the praise team and just the building itself. 00:16:46.260 --> 00:16:51.720 You know, Joey, you were talking last time about how we've just, we've constructed these massive properties. 00:16:52.140 --> 00:16:55.400 And it takes so much to maintain them and keep them up. 00:16:55.500 --> 00:16:59.320 And as nonprofits, we need those people to speak into that. 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:03.400 Jason's kind of looking at me weird, so I definitely want to give him a chance to speak. 00:17:03.820 --> 00:17:13.080 But it feels like the physical church needs a lot of those people who are doing the body ministry, serving within the church. 00:17:14.080 --> 00:17:18.960 But maybe not tasking people to be on mission. 00:17:19.620 --> 00:17:25.860 Oftentimes, that disciple making gets lost among serving among the church itself. 00:17:25.860 --> 00:17:41.120 One of the things that you mentioned, Jeff, that for me kind of makes me turn my head sideways is when you define body ministry as only being fulfilled within the context of a church service. 00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:44.140 And I think that's where digital... 00:17:44.140 --> 00:17:45.160 Help me define it. 00:17:45.660 --> 00:17:45.920 Yeah. 00:17:46.040 --> 00:17:52.220 I think that's where digital maybe has some challenges, but also some unique opportunities. 00:17:52.220 --> 00:17:58.180 Because when I think of body ministry, I'm thinking about somebody that would be willing to help me move. 00:17:59.400 --> 00:18:05.700 Or somebody that would be willing to, you know, if I throw my back out to mow my lawn. 00:18:06.300 --> 00:18:09.500 That, in my mind, is body ministry where we're serving one another. 00:18:09.960 --> 00:18:19.300 Or perhaps, you know, like we were talking before, share a meal or, you know, talk with somebody if they're feeling down or pray with someone. 00:18:19.420 --> 00:18:20.920 That, in my mind, is body ministry. 00:18:20.920 --> 00:18:33.320 And, unfortunately, sometimes the church service can take away from the focus of that real body ministry that could be happening when we think, oh, I served today because I greeted at the door. 00:18:33.800 --> 00:18:35.520 And I don't really know anybody's name. 00:18:35.860 --> 00:18:40.700 And I haven't really sat down and, you know, done a hospital visit or something like that. 00:18:40.700 --> 00:18:47.180 But, you know, I've done hospital visits from people that beforehand I had met exclusively online. 00:18:47.800 --> 00:18:51.620 And then I met up the very first time I saw them was in the hospital. 00:18:51.940 --> 00:18:53.220 That is body ministry. 00:18:53.460 --> 00:19:01.580 Now, it's not digital, but it was catalyzed by digital for that body ministry to occur. 00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:14.320 And if you take out the church service, how much more time do we have now to be freed up to do real body ministry in ways that are more innovative and more personal than we did before? 00:19:14.460 --> 00:19:18.400 And that almost gets back to the place of personal ministry. 00:19:19.040 --> 00:19:23.120 Like, you know, it's funny, like the whole thing of helping somebody move or whatever. 00:19:23.760 --> 00:19:26.620 By the way, I'm the guy who's driven a truck 20 years of his life. 00:19:26.900 --> 00:19:30.140 I'm, like, on speed dial with dozens of people. 00:19:30.520 --> 00:19:32.320 Now I drive a Jeep, but I still get the calls. 00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:33.900 Here's the thing, though. 00:19:33.980 --> 00:19:41.820 Like, if you're not doing the service, man, how much more able are you to connect within your community around you? 00:19:41.940 --> 00:19:57.320 And that's part of that online to offline philosophy where the gospel, yeah, helping somebody move can be an opportunity to share the gospel or to speak in or share or show, I'm not sure what word I was trying to say, share or show the love of Christ. 00:19:57.940 --> 00:19:59.120 So, man, I love that. 00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:00.560 Thank you very much, Jason Morris. 00:20:00.980 --> 00:20:03.700 Any other thoughts in context of here? 00:20:04.120 --> 00:20:05.000 Body ministry? 00:20:05.480 --> 00:20:06.880 What would global missions look like? 00:20:07.060 --> 00:20:10.780 What would global missions look like in a digital church? 00:20:11.020 --> 00:20:12.540 I mean, I got some things in my head. 00:20:13.540 --> 00:20:16.840 We had an order, and now we're just kind of like, well, just pop it. 00:20:17.080 --> 00:20:17.500 Like, you know what? 00:20:18.220 --> 00:20:19.840 We'll come back to 7 and 8. 00:20:19.840 --> 00:20:20.800 11, we go to 10. 00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:22.280 We haven't hit on 7. 00:20:23.060 --> 00:20:23.540 We're good. 00:20:23.760 --> 00:20:25.100 We're hanging out 9, 10, 11. 00:20:26.780 --> 00:20:29.100 Global mission, global mission, body ministry. 00:20:29.500 --> 00:20:30.500 Let's look at that as a group. 00:20:30.780 --> 00:20:33.380 If I go one by one, we will never finish this podcast. 00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:36.940 We'll be back for, like, episode 4 of it. 00:20:37.300 --> 00:20:40.080 All right, so global missions, what would that look like? 00:20:40.180 --> 00:20:41.500 Like it already does right now. 00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:46.980 I mean, it really is, as Joey said, it's global already. 00:20:47.860 --> 00:20:52.100 It's kind of, I guess I would say moot. 00:20:52.820 --> 00:20:54.340 It's already international. 00:20:54.580 --> 00:20:55.840 There's nothing we can do about it. 00:20:55.900 --> 00:21:02.220 I still remember the, I think it was our second or third streaming service that I ever led. 00:21:02.660 --> 00:21:14.500 I had somebody from India streaming with me, watching it, and it was, it was amazing to all of a sudden go, wait a minute. 00:21:15.080 --> 00:21:17.540 I am not just talking about my local context. 00:21:18.340 --> 00:21:19.580 I am now digital. 00:21:20.080 --> 00:21:21.380 I am now international. 00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:33.280 Whether I like it or not, whether I view it that way or not, whether I set my keywords for my SEO correctly or not, I'm still international. 00:21:33.740 --> 00:21:50.780 As a missionary in Paraguay, I was there for almost nine years, and it used to frustrate me to death when I would read the Great Commission, and it says go into all the world, because at that point, I'd only hit, you know, a couple, maybe three countries. 00:21:51.020 --> 00:22:04.500 And I felt frustrated, because I really wanted to do what Jesus said, go into all the world, and one of the big benefits I have right now through online ministry is I get to do that. 00:22:04.660 --> 00:22:19.020 I feel like I am able to now actually do what Jesus said better than I was when I was a missionary in Paraguay, and I just got back from a trip to Laos and Thailand with all of our partners, 00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:32.360 and we're empowering at this point, somewhere in the neighborhood of around 2,000 churches, and they're all around the world, and we're using digital tools to make that happen. 00:22:32.840 --> 00:22:48.920 And I feel like that that is a greater opportunity in the digital space, because we're already international anyway, because it removes digital, like technology tends to be a force multiplier that removes obstacles, and one of the main things that online ministry, 00:22:48.920 --> 00:23:07.740 that technology removes is space, and that geography doesn't matter anymore, we literally can go into all the world, and I think that is a benefit that digital ministry has over physical, and that is something that we should be leveraging more and more. 00:23:07.740 --> 00:23:22.380 So you really also, like you're saying, Ian, it's already happening. In our group, we actively would love to see more people from other nations, just because it gives us a rounder perspective of what's going on in the world. 00:23:23.420 --> 00:23:41.420 But we do have that, even in our core group, we've, just people have come up, we haven't specifically looked for somebody that was from another nation, but just because of who's active, we have active team members that are like our core group from Australia. 00:23:41.420 --> 00:23:53.420 Australia, one of one person was from America, and he just moved to Korea. So we've have that there's a yeah, interesting time to move. The time of this is coronavirus is going around. 00:23:53.420 --> 00:24:15.420 Yeah, we have, there's people from Thailand, there's a guy from UK, like, that just kind of naturally, that's what happens. But where I really see a huge, a huge extra component to that is if we look at like an axe. 00:24:15.420 --> 00:24:27.420 They, they noticed that, well, Agabus says there's going to be a famine, and we should collect and distribute to other churches. 00:24:28.420 --> 00:24:43.900 And, and today, man, it's so interesting when the like church down the street, we're like, well, but if that church, what if they, what if they take all of our people, you know, and just that complete, you know, whatever, that that's just something we have to deal with physically that we need to get past. 00:24:43.900 --> 00:25:04.900 But in a, in a digital, even, that there is that opportunity for seeing other people that, you know, who is your neighbor, is kind of the question, like, is my neighbor also this person in the UK is this person that's streaming in from India and from Africa and whatever. 00:25:04.900 --> 00:25:12.900 And your, your, your context in the UK really turns into where's the need of the church. 00:25:12.900 --> 00:25:32.900 And if who your neighbor, who is my neighbor means also the person from Africa that's in your group, you're, you can just imagine what the thinking changes into, and instead of whatever it is here, where it's like, well, what kind of, you know, video screen would best reach our, our viewing audience. 00:25:32.900 --> 00:25:43.840 You know what I mean? Like, I don't know, are they going to think that we're too cheap if we do like 1080p instead of 720p, you know, like, or like, what is our, what is our thing here? 00:25:43.840 --> 00:25:58.120 And, and, and your context just changes when, like, half of your members are in a totally different nation where the government may be abusive and, and even your, even your preaching and stuff will change. 00:25:58.120 --> 00:26:23.580 And, and, and, and, and like Jason's saying, you know, when he's in another nation, his thinking is, yeah, for other nations, but he's also thinking about just differently than he would if he's only trying to reach the person there. 00:26:23.580 --> 00:26:34.500 And I think a lot of people, that's one of the things they really, they dive into when they see, like, we're trying to do a video game ministry is it's like, well, you're just not thinking about all these other things because, you know, oh, that's only going to reach gamers. 00:26:34.500 --> 00:26:36.700 And what about, what about that person on the street? 00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:38.160 What about the homeless guy or whatever? 00:26:38.320 --> 00:26:39.360 Well, I've been given a calling. 00:26:39.440 --> 00:26:40.280 This is my specific thing. 00:26:40.300 --> 00:26:42.580 And if you're calling for the homeless, absolutely do that. 00:26:42.580 --> 00:26:50.820 But don't think that that means we're, we're not diverse, that, that we're not thinking about other nations because there's people in other nations that are dealing with these things. 00:26:51.220 --> 00:26:55.180 So anyway, I don't, it's in there somewhere, but just it's worth mentioning. 00:26:56.660 --> 00:26:58.480 One of the things, thanks for that, Jay. 00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:14.280 One of the things that, that Ray and I are a part of right now, we're working with a nonprofit organization that is basically doing telehealth medicine to impoverished third world type countries. 00:27:14.280 --> 00:27:28.300 And so we'll have, um, American doctors, um, sometimes bilingual, um, reaching out via appropriate zoom, but like zoom for telemedicine where it matches all the, the, you know, the legal requirements. 00:27:28.700 --> 00:27:37.920 But basically working with nurses and organizations, um, like, and she even worked partnering with churches down in like Latin and South America. 00:27:38.360 --> 00:27:52.060 And so we're, we're getting volunteers, doctors to volunteer their time to serve and to see patients via zoom through a, like a nurse practitioner or something in, in these countries. 00:27:52.560 --> 00:27:58.860 That's just a small way of where I think global missions can change in context. 00:27:58.940 --> 00:28:08.300 We used to, Hey, let's go and let's take, you know, all these doctors down all this medical and let's, you know, get everybody on a plane to go down there. 00:28:08.360 --> 00:28:10.760 And listen, I've, I've done those mission trips. 00:28:10.840 --> 00:28:15.240 Those mission trips are awesome, but it's always one, two weeks. 00:28:15.800 --> 00:28:22.100 Um, you know, you got to jump through all the hurdles and sometimes you can't get everybody to contribute and catch that vision. 00:28:22.940 --> 00:28:33.820 The doctors who are serving and who are seeing these patients in these third world situations, impoverished nations, man, they're getting a, they're getting a feel of, of that trip. 00:28:33.820 --> 00:28:43.320 Now it'd be great if maybe this is an intermediary step towards them going, or maybe it's a replacement and then a growth of something later to come. 00:28:43.320 --> 00:28:52.400 But I think it's interesting that even telemedicine is opening up ways to do global mission in ways that maybe we hadn't anticipated before. 00:28:52.800 --> 00:29:02.400 Well, one of the, um, we learned that meeting, we were in Colorado that one of the top word crisis or need is education. 00:29:02.400 --> 00:29:13.140 And I, I look at the, the, the capacity of the online church to actually take education to other countries. 00:29:13.800 --> 00:29:17.580 Uh, because the internet is so spread wide, like it's everywhere. 00:29:18.220 --> 00:29:19.960 Uh, and I, I, it's kind of funny. 00:29:20.060 --> 00:29:28.500 I, I look at this in looking in other countries in need and the capacity that we have that through the online church, expand the local churches in other countries. 00:29:29.340 --> 00:29:37.840 By raising pastors, by raising leaders through the online environment where they can actually go to their local neighborhoods and then start a church. 00:29:38.800 --> 00:29:50.040 So I think, I think, I think, yes, I think there's so much capacity that needs to be explored through the online, the digital church that can actually, you can do this a lot faster. 00:29:50.260 --> 00:29:58.740 I don't know in your church, but, uh, it's, it's, I don't, I don't know a church that where 90% of the people go on mission trips. 00:29:59.740 --> 00:30:04.900 And the reason for that, one of the reasons cost, it just costs a lot of money to go on a mission trip. 00:30:04.900 --> 00:30:07.060 It costs $2,000, $3,000. 00:30:07.660 --> 00:30:17.000 So a family of five, uh, it's a very expensive, uh, mission trip, but what it would look like, right? 00:30:17.100 --> 00:30:27.100 What it would look like for that family to be able to participate in some kind of influence, to be able to be online with a family that's overseas. 00:30:27.900 --> 00:30:31.500 Um, and doing that, and it's kind of interesting because it's already happening. 00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:46.520 So we have some, uh, a group of ladies in our church that actually teach English, uh, to students in China, uh, and, and do this online and they're in contact with the parents. 00:30:46.920 --> 00:30:51.900 So they actually allow exercise some kind of influence because they develop a relationship. 00:30:51.900 --> 00:30:55.900 There is the parents in China where they're very restricted. 00:30:56.100 --> 00:30:58.160 They actually start to develop some relationships. 00:30:58.160 --> 00:30:59.880 So there's conversations happening. 00:31:00.360 --> 00:31:05.580 Between these two parents who'd never met in person where they start asking cultural questions. 00:31:05.580 --> 00:31:14.020 One of the interesting ones, uh, was, uh, one mom from China asked this mom from the U S what Christmas looks like. 00:31:14.020 --> 00:31:18.420 Cause she has no idea in China or Christmas in America looks like. 00:31:18.840 --> 00:31:21.360 So that there's a relationships that are happening there. 00:31:21.960 --> 00:31:23.820 Uh, it's all happening digital. 00:31:24.420 --> 00:31:27.020 Uh, and, and, and we're having the conversation. 00:31:27.020 --> 00:31:30.140 Like she's an, she said, I'm in the mission field right now. 00:31:30.740 --> 00:31:38.780 And that experience led her now to sign up to, to serve in our chat room because she's having so much fun doing that. 00:31:38.860 --> 00:31:39.580 She wants to do a lot. 00:31:39.580 --> 00:31:50.320 So I'm saying it, that's so, so many ways right now that can actually happen that digital church can make a much bigger impact globally. 00:31:50.920 --> 00:32:00.740 Uh, if we, if we head on really, if we intentionally go for it, like really like, let's make it happen, uh, with all this spaces that we have. 00:32:00.980 --> 00:32:08.760 One of the things I love, and this is going to go back to Jade's comment a little earlier, even though, even the phrase global mission trip. 00:32:09.580 --> 00:32:16.280 Uh, global is important because it indicates it's a different worldview than what you may have. 00:32:17.340 --> 00:32:19.840 Maybe, and I'm just hypothesizing here. 00:32:19.960 --> 00:32:28.800 Maybe if the, if the digital church had that global worldview built into the DNA, maybe it's not a global mission trip. 00:32:28.900 --> 00:32:33.800 Maybe it's just being on mission with a guy or a gal in another country. 00:32:33.920 --> 00:32:41.880 Like, it's not the special thing that requires the $2,000 and pick up, you know, flight and fly over there to do that. 00:32:42.120 --> 00:32:50.100 It's just, I'm connecting with people, um, because they're who they are in Christ. 00:32:50.100 --> 00:32:55.160 And I have this, a similar worldview and I'm engaging through the platform that way. 00:32:55.160 --> 00:33:07.940 And we're doing ministry together, um, in, in a, it, maybe it's more pie in the sky, but I definitely see where the physical and the, in the, in the digital, um, starts to blur together. 00:33:07.940 --> 00:33:15.440 But by creating this digital church idea, you are bringing in the, the domestic as well as the international ministry. 00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:23.540 And it's quickly becoming one it's, it's not that it's, you got to isolate or separate it, but you're bridging that together. 00:33:23.640 --> 00:33:30.120 Jake, just curious, what's the percentage of people, um, that are outside of us that, that connect. 00:33:30.340 --> 00:33:31.580 I use the term regularly. 00:33:31.580 --> 00:33:34.380 You define it regularly with, uh, with love clan. 00:33:35.380 --> 00:33:37.980 Um, instead of love clan, I don't, I don't know. 00:33:38.040 --> 00:33:40.100 I haven't really like quantified it or thought about it. 00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:51.940 Um, I would say, yeah, I mean, it's, I'd say it's, it's definitely more than 10% probably it's, it's probably more than 10%, but it's, I don't know. 00:33:52.060 --> 00:33:59.540 I wouldn't say it's 50%, but I honestly don't know because like chat goes so, so fast sometimes. 00:33:59.780 --> 00:34:03.680 And it, it can even, it can go at like midnight here. 00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:10.560 Um, but even, even that's weird because midnight here, um, that's like, let's see, what am I doing? 00:34:10.640 --> 00:34:17.960 Math wise, uh, and you know, you're looking at like 10 or nine in the States, depending. 00:34:18.260 --> 00:34:30.660 So it, it's even, even time zones is a thing, but yeah, if the trash is going all the time, it's not like I'm, I'm asking everybody like, oh, Hey, you know, your, your English is kind of weird. 00:34:30.660 --> 00:34:32.700 You know, what, what's your native language? 00:34:33.240 --> 00:34:39.200 Um, but cause usually it's just, just, it seems like a normal thing, especially when it's text chat. 00:34:39.680 --> 00:34:40.080 Yeah. 00:34:40.420 --> 00:34:53.500 Um, but, but it, it's enough, it's enough that I, I, I think if somebody has an English accent in a physical church, the first thing everybody asks is like, oh, where are you, where are you from? 00:34:53.560 --> 00:34:54.720 You know, it's like so different. 00:34:54.720 --> 00:34:56.780 So like, uh, it's so crazy, you know? 00:34:56.780 --> 00:34:58.820 And even we, we kind of make this joke. 00:34:58.940 --> 00:35:04.060 We have somebody that has a really great accent and man, we like use that. 00:35:04.220 --> 00:35:09.700 We use that so much in the physical church for like, Hey, can you read this Bible verse for our Sunday morning? 00:35:09.860 --> 00:35:23.640 Because if a, if a normal American just reads this Bible verse, it's not going to hit the same as if you do it with your, just, you know, your accent, your accent is just really, it's got the spirit in there and we want, and, but like, but like, it's just kind of regular. 00:35:23.960 --> 00:35:24.360 Yeah. 00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:25.740 But it's just a regular, yeah. 00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:37.140 It's kind of a regular thing to see international people and, and to, and to bring up international topics and views that, that, that coronavirus that people are praying about that. 00:35:37.460 --> 00:35:38.060 Absolutely good. 00:35:38.060 --> 00:35:39.340 People should be praying about that. 00:35:39.860 --> 00:35:43.040 People right now are kind of freaking out about it in the U S and it's interesting. 00:35:43.040 --> 00:35:49.300 Cause like we've, we, there are people from in China that are, that are in this chat that have talked about this for a while. 00:35:49.300 --> 00:35:53.000 You know, there are, there are big topics that happen. 00:35:53.000 --> 00:36:08.560 Like when a, um, volcano explodes, you know, in, uh, the Philippines, like we know that happens very, very fast to pray about it because our friends that are three miles away are like, I am evacuating right now. 00:36:08.560 --> 00:36:10.060 I think something's about to happen. 00:36:10.060 --> 00:36:13.620 Taking a photo that this just exploded and it's gone now. 00:36:13.740 --> 00:36:14.540 We don't know what's happening. 00:36:14.740 --> 00:36:15.660 You know, be praying for us. 00:36:15.880 --> 00:36:21.560 Like the, the just proximity allows for how quickly you can respond in prayer. 00:36:22.040 --> 00:36:25.380 And, um, there's a lot of other things, but I don't know. 00:36:25.380 --> 00:36:26.960 It's just, there is something different. 00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:31.900 Your mindset changes to a global mission, um, when, when your context is global. 00:36:32.140 --> 00:36:41.280 So, I mean, that sounds really obvious and base, but it doesn't really happen if your physical setting doesn't allow for any interaction with international. 00:36:41.780 --> 00:36:49.640 And, um, and then it, you know, you could get into if that's really living out Matthew 28 or not, if that's the case. 00:36:49.860 --> 00:37:01.420 I mean, if you're, if you're only physical and you haven't thought at all about going to other things, especially if that's, we're talking once, once a week, um, for churches on Sundays being, uh, not very effective. 00:37:01.420 --> 00:37:12.320 I mean, then are you going to say that you're once every three years when you go on a missions trip to, uh, Peru, you know, and like, that's it is like, is that you're being effective now? 00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:13.400 You know, I don't know. 00:37:13.520 --> 00:37:18.740 That, that is my, now we started with the hate mail right now. 00:37:18.740 --> 00:37:19.180 Yeah. 00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:20.060 Now, yeah. 00:37:20.140 --> 00:37:21.460 I said, now you see why I get the hate mail. 00:37:21.680 --> 00:37:24.000 That's all right. 00:37:24.060 --> 00:37:27.420 So that is J a, no, I'm kidding. 00:37:28.540 --> 00:37:30.600 Jeff, send them to Jeff freed. 00:37:31.420 --> 00:37:32.780 So that's the podcast.com. 00:37:33.100 --> 00:37:34.280 Let's, let's wrap up. 00:37:34.360 --> 00:37:40.100 I'm going to combine the last two time wise and, um, maybe there's a reason to keep them separated. 00:37:40.280 --> 00:37:48.700 I'll let you guys tell me as we're going through, um, in book order seven and eight in whatever order we are, uh, 10 and 11. 00:37:49.700 --> 00:37:51.500 Compassion and justice. 00:37:51.800 --> 00:38:01.360 So compassion and justice, uh, we're segueing probably from more practical, uh, biblical functions to, uh, to more. 00:38:01.420 --> 00:38:03.360 Non-practical here. 00:38:04.100 --> 00:38:05.420 Compassion and justice. 00:38:05.420 --> 00:38:08.540 What do y'all think about that in a digital church? 00:38:09.020 --> 00:38:11.800 Well, honestly, you think about it in many respects. 00:38:11.960 --> 00:38:13.740 Compassion is already kind of happening. 00:38:13.860 --> 00:38:18.740 You have the, uh, GoFundMe sites that are, you know, left and right. 00:38:18.740 --> 00:38:28.420 That is kind of a compassion and kind of experiences the same kind of deceit that, uh, physical compassion often experiences. 00:38:29.140 --> 00:38:44.400 And honestly, in many respects, I'm wondering if, as, as we've been talking about this whole international thing and, and the digital church, I'm actually wondering if digital may be the most effective mode for justice. 00:38:45.520 --> 00:38:57.820 Because at that, because, because, because communication happens so quickly, um, this morning we had prayer, uh, prayer service, uh, at our church. 00:38:58.740 --> 00:39:13.380 And one of our, uh, Luddite, I, I, uh, I shouldn't say Luddite, uh, I might be, uh, using the wrong term, uh, folks that don't use technology, uh, very much. 00:39:13.380 --> 00:39:16.520 Um, we just say boomer, but you can use whatever. 00:39:20.620 --> 00:39:21.100 Okay. 00:39:21.100 --> 00:39:21.540 Boomer. 00:39:22.460 --> 00:39:22.940 Wow. 00:39:24.940 --> 00:39:26.020 Shots fired. 00:39:26.460 --> 00:39:28.380 It's been very heavy in here. 00:39:28.500 --> 00:39:29.520 We had a little humor. 00:39:29.880 --> 00:39:30.680 I was just joking. 00:39:30.980 --> 00:39:32.680 There are great Luddite boomers. 00:39:32.920 --> 00:39:34.900 I mean, it's so easy to get us confused. 00:39:34.900 --> 00:39:35.000 Love you. 00:39:35.300 --> 00:39:35.720 Awesome. 00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:36.820 Keep going in. 00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:37.580 Oh, it was awesome. 00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:42.500 Um, but he was talking about how quick communication was happening. 00:39:43.380 --> 00:39:47.560 And it struck me how quick miscommunication happens. 00:39:48.560 --> 00:39:58.720 And I realized that he was, as he was praying about, you know, how quickly is you, you noted, Jake, that we're learning about all of these things instantaneously happening around the world. 00:39:58.720 --> 00:40:01.880 How quickly we can miscommunicate everything too. 00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:13.440 And I think that's why, uh, and I'm already, I'm starting to have to process this, like, as we're doing this is how important we are. 00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:29.920 Or it's going to be to think how digital will affect doing justice as we talk about, you know, the Me Too movement or Black Lives Matters movements or any of the other, uh, justice movements that are quote unquote local to the United States. 00:40:30.740 --> 00:40:53.420 Uh, we're not just talking about international injustices that are happening, whether it be our martyred brothers and sisters in Christ, um, or other things we, uh, uh, I'm, I'm kind of actually at a loss for words, just being blown away by the thought of how critical digital will be. 00:40:53.420 --> 00:40:57.880 And is to the pursuit of justice from a Christ-centered point of view. 00:40:58.100 --> 00:41:05.740 There's definitely a place where we feel, looking at digital, um, that justice is in the hands of the Twitter account. 00:41:06.020 --> 00:41:09.560 Justice is in the hands of, of the individual for that. 00:41:10.140 --> 00:41:15.180 Um, and, and that may be, you know, it may be a small justice. 00:41:15.660 --> 00:41:18.340 Uh, but I mean, I, I, it was funny. 00:41:18.420 --> 00:41:22.040 My daughter said the other day, she's like, I want to be president of the United States of America. 00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:25.700 And I was like, God, I hope she's not actually successful. 00:41:25.700 --> 00:41:31.420 I, I just, I fear anyone having that sort of, of power, honestly, at this point. 00:41:31.420 --> 00:41:50.680 And I'm not even getting political by, by saying that as much as there's no way anybody can, can be successful in that, um, in that position, given this day and age with, with everybody kind of sharing and having their own opinions and driving that on social media and fake news and everything surrounding that. 00:41:50.680 --> 00:41:58.240 You know, uh, whatever, whatever way that you believe there's always, you know, an opportunity for you to scream very loud at that. 00:41:58.240 --> 00:42:03.040 And through social media and through social media and news, there's always somebody who's listening to that. 00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:11.400 How do we utilize some of these tools that are good for, that are providing justice? 00:42:11.800 --> 00:42:14.520 How do we utilize them for Christ? 00:42:15.180 --> 00:42:20.000 Like, and that, that's my fear in the midst of the noise of everything else that that's happening. 00:42:20.620 --> 00:42:26.440 Um, the cries for justice and the, the fear of, I do not want to get political. 00:42:26.640 --> 00:42:35.160 Um, it was funny, I just saw Jay Cranda kind of post a thing like that of why would anybody in this day and age say anything political on social media? 00:42:35.160 --> 00:42:38.840 Because it just opens up the tax and, and, and whatever. 00:42:38.840 --> 00:42:47.080 He said that recently on Twitter, like, how do we utilize digital for justice for Christ without it getting lost? 00:42:47.080 --> 00:42:47.500 Go ahead. 00:42:48.400 --> 00:42:48.620 Yeah. 00:42:48.820 --> 00:42:57.260 So, um, I, I am, uh, classically I have like, I pick my battles. 00:42:58.080 --> 00:43:04.740 I know it doesn't feel like I do, but as far as like the, the political side of things go, I usually, I'm pretty like, whatever. 00:43:04.740 --> 00:43:12.400 I mean, I'm going to worry about the things that are in the church cause that's enough for me right now and the world's going to do what the world's going to do. 00:43:12.760 --> 00:43:24.080 Um, but there are some things that I get very, um, hot about and, and justice is, um, for me, I think about abortion. 00:43:24.080 --> 00:43:28.400 I think about the way that our, our, our society has decided that it is okay. 00:43:29.100 --> 00:43:37.720 Um, that it is a, um, a thing that we can, can do at levels, uh, six or seven times the Holocaust. 00:43:38.200 --> 00:43:40.700 Um, and that just that we can act like it's nothing. 00:43:41.240 --> 00:43:47.260 Um, so without getting into, into it, I mean, when I think about justice, that's, that's just the thing that I think about. 00:43:47.260 --> 00:43:58.740 Um, and that you have an opportunity to, um, to really speak on behalf of people who will literally never have an opportunity, um, to speak. 00:43:58.960 --> 00:44:07.100 So thinking on justice, I, I only preface that, um, because I think it's already been spoken in, in like what you were talking about, I think is very true. 00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:17.240 Um, but I, I put that hand in hand with compassion, um, because of Ephesians 4 32, uh, that be kind to one another, tenderhearted. 00:44:17.260 --> 00:44:22.360 Or compassionate, depending strong compassion, uh, forgiving one another as Christ forgave you. 00:44:22.840 --> 00:44:31.040 And, and, and when compassion is mentioned in the Bible, it's almost always in conjunction with forgiveness, you know? 00:44:31.420 --> 00:44:38.420 And, and those two things, justice and forgiveness allow for us to explain grace, you know? 00:44:38.780 --> 00:44:45.560 And, and, and when we're talking about people online, um, that have viewpoints that may be very different than ours, 00:44:45.680 --> 00:44:54.100 we can, we can have a strong stance in justice and at the same, but the difference, I think for a lot of people is that, that idea, you know, 00:44:54.180 --> 00:45:01.340 even the word justice online usually is in the context of social justice warrior is like what, what the thought is there, right? 00:45:01.760 --> 00:45:05.040 When I think of social justice warrior, I'm very rarely thinking compassion. 00:45:05.140 --> 00:45:05.980 Does that make sense? 00:45:06.180 --> 00:45:17.120 So it, as a, as a church, we have an opportunity as Christ believers, we have a chance to actually have a strong viewpoint on justice, 00:45:17.120 --> 00:45:21.600 but the difference that for what we would have against the world, 00:45:22.180 --> 00:45:27.140 that element of compassion is not something that's, that's usually seen. 00:45:27.140 --> 00:45:28.820 That, that's where it's kind of weird. 00:45:28.820 --> 00:45:35.040 If that makes sense, that I can have compassion on somebody who goes beyond what I see as, as just. 00:45:35.740 --> 00:45:41.540 And, and, and why, you know, because usually it's the viewpoint is, well, I need to be heard. 00:45:41.680 --> 00:45:46.960 And if I'm not, if somebody isn't hearing me, I can't love that person until I'm heard, if that makes sense. 00:45:46.960 --> 00:45:52.540 And you can hear somebody, you can say, this is what's just, but at the same time, I have compassion on that person. 00:45:52.660 --> 00:45:57.900 I'm going to, I'm going to forgive, you know, it doesn't mean you, you become somebody's punching bag. 00:45:58.100 --> 00:46:00.740 You know, that's something else I see that happens quite often. 00:46:00.740 --> 00:46:02.800 And there's a, there's a whole bunch of things we get into that. 00:46:02.800 --> 00:46:17.460 But the idea that, that, you know, I, I think Matthew 18, the parable of the two debtors and the forgiveness and compassion is a one person job. 00:46:20.040 --> 00:46:22.620 Forgiveness and compassion, what takes one person. 00:46:22.620 --> 00:46:27.400 It's not, it is not, I wait for this person to do something and then I, and then I do something. 00:46:27.780 --> 00:46:28.280 Does that make sense? 00:46:28.280 --> 00:46:34.920 So it's like the, the, the parable of the two debtors that God forgave us so much, right? 00:46:34.960 --> 00:46:38.800 That the debtors, there's somebody that has a debt that could not be paid billions of dollars. 00:46:39.240 --> 00:46:40.680 And, and then it's forgiven. 00:46:40.680 --> 00:46:45.720 And then he goes to the person that has, uh, that owes him a thousand dollars, you know, whatever. 00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:48.020 And he's like, you know, pay me all that you owe. 00:46:48.840 --> 00:46:55.880 And, and that the, the idea is that if God has forgiven us so much, he's shown us so much compassion, 00:46:55.880 --> 00:47:00.600 then why would we, why would we not show other people that same compassion, right? 00:47:01.060 --> 00:47:05.980 I'm not even talking digital at this point, but so it's one, it's just one, it's one, it takes one person. 00:47:05.980 --> 00:47:08.640 This isn't, this isn't, I wait for you to do something. 00:47:08.640 --> 00:47:13.320 And then if you pay everything back, then I forgive you, you know, um, I forgive you. 00:47:13.320 --> 00:47:16.260 I forgive you because God has forgiven me so much. 00:47:16.420 --> 00:47:21.420 And the opportunity to show that online happens very regularly. 00:47:21.780 --> 00:47:24.780 If you're doing life together with people, you will have excuses. 00:47:24.780 --> 00:47:28.020 It doesn't matter if you're physical or digital at this point, you will have an opportunity 00:47:28.020 --> 00:47:31.720 to forgive somebody because they have opportunities to hurt you and they'll take it. 00:47:31.780 --> 00:47:32.920 They're human, you know? 00:47:33.040 --> 00:47:40.060 And, and so I think with compassion, it, it, it's even less of a, is it possible in digital 00:47:40.060 --> 00:47:43.680 and more like, is it possible for you as a person in general? 00:47:43.860 --> 00:47:45.880 Do you forgive people in your regular day life? 00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:50.400 You know, cause if you do it in your physical location, you do it probably digital and vice versa. 00:47:50.400 --> 00:47:58.700 And so, and for both of these things, for justice and for compassion, I think people, um, they're both like very deep concepts. 00:47:59.240 --> 00:48:07.220 Um, but they're, they're very internally deep, you know, and, and justice is looking at justice for the rest of the world. 00:48:07.220 --> 00:48:14.900 But even then compassion is just, is totally internal, you know, your ability to, uh, forgive people or not. 00:48:15.300 --> 00:48:34.180 Yeah, I think there, there's a, there's an opportunity to, to be split minded here where, um, you could see someone be very compassionate, um, in a physical environment, but to be very, uh, judgmental and unforgiving and virtual. 00:48:34.500 --> 00:48:35.400 Uh, it's funny. 00:48:35.440 --> 00:48:40.540 I'm actually reminded of the two memes or a meme, a video meme of the two dogs. 00:48:40.540 --> 00:48:50.720 And they're just little, you know, yappy dogs and they're just yapping at each other through the fence, not realizing that the fence is a gate that's opening and the gate just slowly starts to shift to the right. 00:48:50.720 --> 00:48:56.840 And all of a sudden these dogs that are yapping at each other, just yelling at each other through the fence are face to face. 00:48:56.840 --> 00:49:02.460 And there's nothing preventing them from tearing them apart except their own fear of what it would be like. 00:49:02.520 --> 00:49:11.980 And then they just kind of walk away without saying anything because now like they don't have the freedom to yell at each other without reciprocating that. 00:49:11.980 --> 00:49:29.420 I can totally see where you would, you would, you could have a situation in a digital only or digital first expression of church where the church is, or an individual is maybe leaning one side in a virtual environment and then another in real life. 00:49:29.820 --> 00:49:40.860 Just like I could see somebody being one way on a Sunday morning sitting in the pew and that's not affecting them kind of Monday through Saturday, so to speak. 00:49:41.540 --> 00:49:48.180 And so there, there's, there's an opportunity here, I would suggest for the church, just like digital, physical, whatever. 00:49:48.280 --> 00:49:56.180 I think this is a problem, Jay, you alluded to it that goes across all medium is like, we need to show that compassion. 00:49:56.440 --> 00:50:10.940 We need to understand the grace that allows us the opportunity to, to have the voice of justice without that forgiveness, without understanding that without the humility of just as Christ forgave us. 00:50:10.940 --> 00:50:12.600 So we should forgive others. 00:50:12.860 --> 00:50:13.540 I don't know. 00:50:13.660 --> 00:50:19.040 I look at the world today and I just see a whole bunch of, man, these people need some humility. 00:50:19.200 --> 00:50:24.020 These people need, need some Christ in their life and need to start to exude that first. 00:50:24.220 --> 00:50:28.700 I, you know, the beatitudes, blessed are the meek, blessed are the humble, blessed are the poor in spirit. 00:50:29.620 --> 00:50:35.140 I don't see a lot of blessed are the outraged across the Bible yet. 00:50:35.220 --> 00:50:39.940 Strangely, it seems like that's, that's all we see in the world today. 00:50:39.940 --> 00:50:42.400 And I'm not just talking secular, I'm talking church as well. 00:50:42.860 --> 00:50:43.900 Well, that's awesome. 00:50:44.000 --> 00:50:45.180 Hey man, Jake, Jake, thanks for that. 00:50:45.240 --> 00:50:48.600 What other, what other thoughts, what other feedbacks we got on this before we wrap up? 00:50:49.640 --> 00:50:58.660 One of the things that I was thinking about was that digital tools for whatever reason tend to be a little bit more polarized where you have the megaphone and the telephone. 00:50:58.660 --> 00:51:16.080 And when you're talking about justice and compassion, I think that for whatever reason, when you start leaning toward the megaphone side of that equation, whether that be physical or digital, it tends to be more destructive. 00:51:17.080 --> 00:51:29.920 When you see scripture, like whenever you're talking about justice or compassion, it always brings me back to that passive scripture in the Old Testament that says, do justice, which is different than speaking justice. 00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:33.820 Do justice, love mercy, walk humbly. 00:51:34.200 --> 00:51:45.180 That feels like to me more of a telephone expression rather than a megaphone expression of what justice and compassion can look like. 00:51:45.180 --> 00:52:01.140 And when you see the vast majority of the times where even Jesus was doing justice and showing compassion in the vast majority, it was more on the individual side of the expression rather than the megaphone side of the expression, if you understand what I'm saying. 00:52:01.520 --> 00:52:28.840 So I think that in the physical space, the pulpit is used in the same destructive ways that Twitter can be used as a megaphone, whereas when you're talking to people one-on-one or you're using the digital tools like telephone or one-on-one conversations, a lot of those things don't even matter because it's kind of like taking away the gate and it's like, oh, I'm talking with a regular person. 00:52:28.840 --> 00:52:36.360 Now I can do justice, I can love mercy, I can walk humbly in the digital space or in the physical space. 00:52:36.700 --> 00:52:43.300 I think getting one-on-one with people really helps to share the love of Jesus and to do justice and to show compassion. 00:52:44.400 --> 00:52:58.160 And I think what you pointed out, Jason, was one of the pitfalls of digital is it has a tendency to be megaphone-oriented, at least the way we're currently using it. 00:52:58.840 --> 00:53:15.320 But that's also, in many ways, it's strength because we have the power to drown out the negativity and the fear, which honestly the church digitally is not doing a very good job at. 00:53:19.380 --> 00:53:31.500 And so there's that, but I think one of the things that you pointed out, Jason, that I think is very important that the church needs to work on as a discipleship standpoint, especially digitally, is there somebody else on the other side of that screen? 00:53:32.180 --> 00:53:44.300 And there, and that is, I think that is going to be, and that is currently the biggest weakness of the digital expression, 00:53:44.980 --> 00:54:01.500 is that we are, for many people, I think, especially for those of us, I'm about to say this, that are older, you know, Jate, you know, having been more digital than, you know, the rest of us. 00:54:04.280 --> 00:54:12.960 But there is, we really do have a disconnect, a lot of us do have that disconnect on, there's somebody else on the other side of the screen who's hurt and broken, 00:54:12.960 --> 00:54:17.500 and we really need to work on our own personal one-on-one compassion. 00:54:18.120 --> 00:54:36.140 I know this is going to sound strange in people such as, you know, the more corporeal people, treat the screen as a human being, not in a creepy way, and love them, because that way the love of Christ will go through the screen. 00:54:36.800 --> 00:54:37.060 Amen. 00:54:37.740 --> 00:54:48.160 I got to tell you, like, just from my vantage point, as we've been, as steady as we've been dreaming about what a digital church could be, and praying through some different things. 00:54:48.740 --> 00:54:57.180 Honestly, like, I'm taking a lot of my lessons from the microchurch level, like the KC Underground, Tampa Underground, 00:54:58.580 --> 00:55:09.040 and really, even like the co-vocational ministers, the guy who have a full-time job and really look at their workplace as the opportunity to do ministry there. 00:55:09.980 --> 00:55:17.480 Seth Godin, I was listening to his podcast a couple weeks ago, we'll link to it in the show notes, but he did, and I think I even wrote a blog on it. 00:55:18.320 --> 00:55:25.160 Somebody asked him a question, it's 2020, what platforms would you utilize to get a message out to the world? 00:55:26.380 --> 00:55:32.080 And in typical Seth Godin fashion, he didn't answer the question he was asked, instead he answered another question, 00:55:32.500 --> 00:55:34.480 how would you get a message out to the world? 00:55:34.720 --> 00:55:38.420 And it wasn't, and Ian, I'm going to challenge you a little bit here, 00:55:38.900 --> 00:55:44.620 the strength of technology of the internet today is not broadcasting a message out to a billion people. 00:55:45.160 --> 00:55:48.080 There's so much noise on that line, nobody's listening. 00:55:49.120 --> 00:55:52.540 And to Seth Godin's point, he's like, you don't create a message for a billion people, 00:55:52.720 --> 00:55:56.160 or a hundred million, or even 10 million people, even a million. 00:55:56.580 --> 00:56:00.400 You want to get your message to the smallest number of people possible, 00:56:00.700 --> 00:56:02.520 and then duplicate it from there. 00:56:03.340 --> 00:56:11.220 And so, like, when I look at Digital Church, I see an opportunity to reach a small amount of people, 00:56:11.460 --> 00:56:15.240 to help multiple people find their audience, 00:56:15.240 --> 00:56:21.180 and to help them get started to reach that audience in a, as small as possible. 00:56:21.180 --> 00:56:26.280 Because I think the smaller you are, the more that you realize there's a person on the other end of that webcam, 00:56:26.280 --> 00:56:29.100 or the other end of that computer monitor. 00:56:29.660 --> 00:56:35.020 And that enables the message to be received well, and hopefully repeated. 00:56:35.520 --> 00:56:40.440 Disciple making is key in this, because the idea can't just go one generation, 00:56:40.600 --> 00:56:43.500 but it has to multiply after that. 00:56:43.620 --> 00:56:51.460 And so, our hope in doing this Digital Church initiative is to really find ways to not broadcast. 00:56:51.460 --> 00:56:58.780 I would rather not, honestly, I would rather, and we were actually, Joey, we were part of this conversation. 00:56:58.960 --> 00:57:01.060 I would rather not have a billion person church. 00:57:01.460 --> 00:57:03.820 Not really, not really interested in that. 00:57:03.960 --> 00:57:07.000 I would rather have a hundred million churches of ten, 00:57:07.700 --> 00:57:11.040 that are multiplying and growing from there. 00:57:11.180 --> 00:57:15.800 Because I think that's where you're going to get the disciple making capacity. 00:57:16.240 --> 00:57:19.080 I think that's where you're going to truly understand fellowship. 00:57:19.320 --> 00:57:20.900 I think you're understanding community. 00:57:21.560 --> 00:57:28.320 And you're also understanding the compassion, capacity to do things. 00:57:28.320 --> 00:57:35.300 Even in operating at Body Ministry, so much of this is easily reproduced in the smaller amounts, 00:57:35.580 --> 00:57:38.420 in a smaller body of Christ. 00:57:38.680 --> 00:57:43.320 The larger we get, the more unwieldy some of these things get, unfortunately. 00:57:43.540 --> 00:57:49.860 And that, I feel, is some of the tension that we, the church today, is feeling. 00:57:49.940 --> 00:57:56.060 The physical church, and even the physical church, feeling its judgments towards the virtual church. 00:57:57.140 --> 00:57:58.660 Conversation I had with Ed last week. 00:57:59.080 --> 00:58:00.280 You can go back and listen to it. 00:58:00.360 --> 00:58:04.300 It's episode 50, 51, with the podcast. 00:58:04.840 --> 00:58:10.340 Man, it was, it was awesome, because at some point, he's like, he's like, I don't agree with church online, 00:58:10.340 --> 00:58:11.820 but Jeff, tell me your vantage point. 00:58:11.860 --> 00:58:12.780 How would you answer this question? 00:58:13.220 --> 00:58:14.460 I'm not going to give away the question. 00:58:14.520 --> 00:58:15.200 Go listen to the podcast. 00:58:15.200 --> 00:58:19.600 But I answered the question, and he's like, wow, I totally affirmed everything you just said. 00:58:19.640 --> 00:58:20.300 That was incredible. 00:58:20.520 --> 00:58:23.280 And every church needs to do exactly what Jeffrey just said. 00:58:23.700 --> 00:58:28.280 At the heart of it, all I said was, hey, we need to start using online to make the disciple makers. 00:58:28.280 --> 00:58:37.660 If we can get people to stop being consumers and start being disciple makers, not only our digital churches will start to be able to replicate, 00:58:37.900 --> 00:58:44.960 but our physical church is going to find themselves getting closer to this biblical ecclesiology, biblical standard, the functions that we have in place. 00:58:45.120 --> 00:58:46.600 So this has been great. 00:58:46.740 --> 00:58:53.940 I really value y'all's insight working through this and the amount of time that you spent digging into, you know, 00:58:53.980 --> 00:59:03.760 the biblical functions of worship, teaching, prayer, sacraments, fellowship, disciple making, compassion, justice, mission, global missions, and body ministry. 00:59:03.940 --> 00:59:07.780 Definitely a lot for us to think about and work through. 00:59:07.780 --> 00:59:13.660 So for Jake, for Ian, for Joey, for Jason, this is Jeff with The Church Digital. 00:59:13.960 --> 00:59:16.620 Thanks for being here, and we'll see you next time here at the podcast. 00:59:16.920 --> 00:59:17.540 Y'all have a good day.