WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.460 Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. My name is Jeff Reed, and it is a 00:00:04.460 --> 00:00:10.320 pleasure once again to have you all join us today. We've got a great episode here. This is episode 00:00:10.320 --> 00:00:16.780 seven. We've done seven of these things already, and time has been flying by. I'm joined today by 00:00:16.780 --> 00:00:24.160 Kevin Lee, who is the online small groups pastor over at Saddleback, just a small little church 00:00:24.160 --> 00:00:30.440 over there on the West Coast. You may remember his name. He came up a couple times in conversation 00:00:30.440 --> 00:00:37.100 during episode three, talking with Jay Cranda. Jay tried to steal some of his thunder, but we saved 00:00:37.100 --> 00:00:41.880 it, and we got it. It's going to be a great episode. Hey, Kevin, man, why don't you just 00:00:41.880 --> 00:00:46.100 take a minute, just tell us a little bit about yourself and your ministry and what it looks like 00:00:46.100 --> 00:00:52.980 over there at Saddleback. Yeah, Jeff. Glad to be here. Thanks for having me. My role at Saddleback 00:00:52.980 --> 00:00:59.040 Saddleback is Small Groups Faster for our campus, which is the online campus. So just for short, 00:00:59.140 --> 00:01:05.600 I just, you know, titled myself Online Small Groups Faster, and a lot of people think that I deal only 00:01:05.600 --> 00:01:12.680 with the online small groups, and a lot of people actually don't know what that means. So, but actually 00:01:12.680 --> 00:01:18.960 half of our groups, majority of our groups are actually meeting at home groups that meets in, 00:01:18.960 --> 00:01:25.140 you know, other states outside of our physical campus' immediate reach, and about another half 00:01:25.140 --> 00:01:31.280 of our small groups are meeting online. So I don't know if you're going to ever talk about that, or in 00:01:31.280 --> 00:01:38.660 your previous episodes, you've talked about that. But so I care for, I pastor, along with our volunteers 00:01:38.660 --> 00:01:44.160 and our team to help our small groups do well and be healthy. 00:01:45.200 --> 00:01:50.820 Yeah, and I hate to slap a number on that, but you told me earlier, it's like 2,400 small groups? 00:01:51.360 --> 00:01:58.040 Yeah, right now, 2,400 small groups registered under our online campus. Yeah. 00:01:58.600 --> 00:02:05.780 And so that's 2,400 small groups that are outside of the circle of influence of your physical campuses. 00:02:05.780 --> 00:02:11.540 So like 25, 30 miles, something like that? Yeah, correct. So outside of our physical 00:02:11.540 --> 00:02:20.540 campuses' reach, 25 miles outside. And we have 19 campuses around the world right now. So anything 00:02:20.540 --> 00:02:27.460 outside of those, you know, campuses' reach will fall under me. So if the funnel kind of goes like where 00:02:27.460 --> 00:02:32.780 if someone watches Satterback Worship Service and they want to start a small group or join a small 00:02:32.780 --> 00:02:39.140 group, we, at first, we want to see if they're connected to a local church because we want to be 00:02:39.140 --> 00:02:45.300 the advocates for the local church. And if they are, we actually recommend and suggest, hey, you should 00:02:45.300 --> 00:02:51.760 check out the small groups at your church, at your local church. And if they're, you know, for whatever 00:02:51.760 --> 00:02:58.720 reasons for, you know, geographical or security or health reasons, they are not part of a local church, 00:02:58.720 --> 00:03:04.720 we help them, you know, start a online small groups or home small group with their friends and family. 00:03:06.220 --> 00:03:17.660 That's amazing. And so all that still equals 2,400 groups that are either meeting in homes or outside of 00:03:17.660 --> 00:03:24.600 location or, you know, via technology like a Zoom or a Skype or something like that. 00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:26.500 Yeah, you're exactly right. That's it. 00:03:26.500 --> 00:03:33.280 Wow. You know, and that sets up perfectly what I wanted to talk about a little bit with this episode 00:03:33.280 --> 00:03:39.420 because we're getting to this place of, and I wrote about this recently on a blog. I was writing about 00:03:39.420 --> 00:03:43.920 Judah Smith over at Church Home. Judah's up there in California as well. 00:03:44.180 --> 00:03:51.060 Yeah. And so he was getting a lot of flack and he created this church home model of a mobile app to 00:03:51.060 --> 00:03:55.940 create discipleship. And, and it was interesting. I was reading in, it was USA Today. So it was a, 00:03:55.940 --> 00:04:01.560 it was a complimentary piece that I wrote on the USA Today. And like, he got a lot of flack and a lot 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:05.640 of people were angry and upset. And we'll link to the blog in the show notes and Judah Smith. 00:04:05.640 --> 00:04:13.880 But like, people are like, I don't know what that is, but don't call that church. And to me, I just, 00:04:13.960 --> 00:04:19.480 I kind of stepped back and I was like, well, let's really break down, you know, what church is and 00:04:19.480 --> 00:04:27.420 what church isn't. And so with this episode, like I want to hone in a little bit on some of the 00:04:27.420 --> 00:04:35.020 arguments of, okay, well, church online isn't this and discuss with Kevin and just try to even talk 00:04:35.020 --> 00:04:41.300 through. Well, how do we answer that? How can we solve some of those? Sure. Because in my experience 00:04:41.300 --> 00:04:47.500 with, with church online, it's, it's not so much what it can't be, but it's more of, we don't have 00:04:47.500 --> 00:04:53.260 vision to figure out how to solve that problem, but we're not giving it a chance to. And so like in 00:04:53.260 --> 00:04:58.760 context, you know, and just to kind of unpack here on, on the biblical community piece of this, 00:04:58.760 --> 00:05:04.520 you know, so often I hear you can't have biblical community online. You can't do 00:05:04.520 --> 00:05:10.500 small groups online. And so, you know, Kevin, when somebody says to you, man, you can't do, 00:05:10.580 --> 00:05:18.080 you can't do small groups online. Like you can at a physical church, like you who's managing and 00:05:18.080 --> 00:05:23.060 overseeing and shepherding 2,400 groups. Like what's your response to that? 00:05:23.800 --> 00:05:31.560 Wow. That's a, it's a question that, that I have a whole lot to say, not because I haven't, you know, 00:05:31.560 --> 00:05:37.160 opinions on that, but because I have so many stories of, you know, life transformation that happened 00:05:37.160 --> 00:05:46.140 through our, our groups. And just, just what Jay and I try to do is we look at the Bible and see, 00:05:46.360 --> 00:05:52.280 hey, what are the essence of the church? What, what are some things that we cannot sacrifice on? 00:05:52.740 --> 00:06:00.080 And we just go and see if we can bring those essence into our online community. So just for 00:06:00.080 --> 00:06:07.240 example, you know, we know, we all know that technology is, is changing the world. And I was 00:06:07.240 --> 00:06:13.520 just at the gym the other day and I saw someone working out very hard and they had a phone in front 00:06:13.520 --> 00:06:20.880 of them. And it was a, you know, it was a FaceTime and there was another person at the other side of 00:06:20.880 --> 00:06:27.060 the phone and what they were doing, essentially they were keeping each other accountable, training one 00:06:27.060 --> 00:06:34.960 another over the FaceTime. And I was just thinking something so individual such as working out, 00:06:34.960 --> 00:06:42.300 you know, is, is, is they're able to, um, have accountability through, you know, FaceTiming. 00:06:42.300 --> 00:06:49.140 And just, I just thought that was, you know, just a small example of how technology is changing the 00:06:49.140 --> 00:06:55.660 relationships, uh, changing the just accountability aspects. And we're just bringing that over to our 00:06:55.660 --> 00:07:02.560 church and seeing, Hey, we want to, we know that relationships are important and we know that 00:07:02.560 --> 00:07:08.680 accountability is important and we, we know that community is important and we want to bring that 00:07:08.680 --> 00:07:16.520 in whatever way to our, our church, uh, to people that we minister to. And we just said, Hey, uh, you 00:07:16.520 --> 00:07:23.160 can use whatever you want to have this community and let's see where it goes. And we have some of 00:07:23.160 --> 00:07:33.180 most vibrant and deep conversations in our Skype groups, uh, people who meet through zoom. And we 00:07:33.180 --> 00:07:38.540 even have some people that do text groups because just they're, these people are working professionals, 00:07:38.820 --> 00:07:46.480 working moms. They have really no time that they can designate that like a designated time to meet 00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:53.800 regularly. So they put them in, uh, themselves in a Slack. And these people tell me that these 00:07:53.800 --> 00:08:02.260 conversations are what gets them going, you know, they literally are encouraged by the texts that they 00:08:02.260 --> 00:08:08.440 get. And they, they try to meet, you know, um, every once in a while, just to, just to, um, 00:08:09.160 --> 00:08:15.140 they just confirm with one another that they're doing good and just to check on themselves. But 00:08:15.140 --> 00:08:23.680 those text messages and those, you know, um, checkups are literally what keep, what's keeping 00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:28.900 them alive and do well in their relationship with God and relationship with other people. So 00:08:28.900 --> 00:08:36.540 there's so many different stories like this, you know, that are doing the work of the church, 00:08:36.540 --> 00:08:45.240 right? So that are bearing the fruits of, of ministry to say, Hey, that's not the ministry 00:08:45.240 --> 00:08:51.240 of the church. That's not church. That's we can't, I feel like that's discounting people's story. 00:08:51.240 --> 00:08:59.420 If you say that, so yeah, just let's, let's unpack a little bit. Cause this is good. You're so the text 00:08:59.420 --> 00:09:03.980 groups, the, um, uh, you know, the, the Skype groups, the ones that are using virtual software 00:09:03.980 --> 00:09:08.100 cause cause there's home groups and I want to get to that in a second, but the ones that are using 00:09:08.100 --> 00:09:15.120 the technology as, as the vehicle to stay connected to communicate, uh, are the people all within the 00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:20.200 same geographical area? Like they're in the same city. Are they separated by distance? Kind of what's 00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:27.080 the examples you have there? So some are, some aren't. So we have, we say we purposefully don't 00:09:27.080 --> 00:09:34.100 have a specific software for, for our groups to meet. Um, that's because we have groups in Asia, 00:09:34.200 --> 00:09:39.540 we have groups in Europe and they have softwares that they're familiar with. And if we say, Hey, 00:09:40.020 --> 00:09:46.160 this is the only platform that you can use. Um, we, we become the bottleneck of, of, of how, 00:09:46.160 --> 00:09:51.620 how they can meet. And we don't want to do that. Um, there's, you know, with technology, there's a 00:09:51.620 --> 00:09:56.480 bandwidth issue. There's with different, um, countries, there are different, you know, 00:09:56.480 --> 00:10:03.180 tech not technological issues that, that we don't want to become the limitations to. So, um, these, 00:10:03.340 --> 00:10:09.040 these groups use whatever that they're comfortable with. And some groups are, um, just like the, 00:10:09.040 --> 00:10:15.760 the Slack group that I talked about, um, they're geographically close somewhat, but not, um, not 00:10:15.760 --> 00:10:22.400 so close so that they can meet every week. But, um, we have also some groups that are literally 00:10:22.400 --> 00:10:28.040 across the country. Uh, we have some people that meet in West coast, uh, some, some live in the West 00:10:28.040 --> 00:10:33.120 coast and some people who live in East coast. So they have to account for time zones and different 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:39.640 things. Um, but they, they meet like that. That's awesome. Yeah. I, I lead a, I myself, 00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:45.000 I lead a, uh, an online small group, an online Bible study. We meet every Tuesday night. Um, 00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:50.520 within my study, I'm down here in Miami, Florida, and I've got people in the group from Miami, Florida. 00:10:50.520 --> 00:10:56.560 I've got people from, from Fort Lauderdale, from, uh, North Florida up in, uh, the land plant city 00:10:56.560 --> 00:11:02.880 area. I've got people up in New York. I've got people in, um, uh, Houston, uh, that, that jump 00:11:02.880 --> 00:11:06.980 on. And so it's, it's, it's this really, one of the things that I love about it, it's this really 00:11:06.980 --> 00:11:15.480 unique mix. Um, when I talk about like online groups, I think you can get people in a virtual 00:11:15.480 --> 00:11:19.880 conversation. Uh, you can get them together in a room, but if you tried to get them together, 00:11:19.880 --> 00:11:24.700 like in a physical room and try to do the same thing, I don't, I just, I don't think it, 00:11:24.700 --> 00:11:31.300 it works like, yeah, I'm 42. Um, I've, I've got people, I've, there's a woman in the group 00:11:31.300 --> 00:11:35.860 who I was actually friends with her daughters, like growing up together, you know? And so 00:11:35.860 --> 00:11:40.900 it's like a 70 year old person plus, and I'm not putting, you know, an age on Janice Collins. 00:11:41.020 --> 00:11:47.980 I apologize. So, but you know, a 70 something, you know, um, I'm, I'm 40 somethings and there's 00:11:47.980 --> 00:11:53.880 20 somethings in there. There's single moms. There's, uh, you know, uh, lawyer, dad with 00:11:53.880 --> 00:11:59.960 working too much. And so it's, it's like all these different, um, types of personalities 00:11:59.960 --> 00:12:04.800 come together, uh, and, and growing together. And what's, what's interesting and like, I didn't 00:12:04.800 --> 00:12:09.720 put pressure on this and the group's only been meeting like six, seven months now, but they've 00:12:09.720 --> 00:12:17.820 started calling themselves family. Like this wasn't me prompting or pushing them. They, they did that on 00:12:17.820 --> 00:12:23.980 their own. And so now it's, it's like, uh, I wasn't, I wasn't able to be on recently and 00:12:23.980 --> 00:12:28.740 had someone else lead the group for me and like, I'm getting messages, you know, hope things 00:12:28.740 --> 00:12:34.280 are okay. Miss you today. And so like, there's, there's self accountability that that's grown 00:12:34.280 --> 00:12:39.780 up within this group. That's so, um, it's so awesome, you know? And, and like the people 00:12:39.780 --> 00:12:45.460 who are in the group, this online group that, that live in Miami, they're like a couple miles 00:12:45.460 --> 00:12:50.820 away from a physical campus, but it's, it's a, it's a single mom. Who's like, yeah, I don't 00:12:50.820 --> 00:12:55.420 have, I don't have the capacity to try to get my kid together and go join this thing, but 00:12:55.420 --> 00:12:59.920 I need biblical community. So let me get it online. Or it's like I said, it's, it's a, 00:12:59.920 --> 00:13:04.700 it's a dad who's a, uh, the single lawyer in his law firm. And he's getting home at work 00:13:04.700 --> 00:13:09.720 at like, you know, eight o'clock at night and then to gear up to go, you know, do a 00:13:09.720 --> 00:13:14.160 small group at a house isn't happening, but jump on a computer and do zoom, you know, all 00:13:14.160 --> 00:13:20.680 of a sudden it opens the door for more of, of, of this community. Um, tell me like, give 00:13:20.680 --> 00:13:28.620 me one story and exciting, keep going. I get my mom, my mom, she leads two online small 00:13:28.620 --> 00:13:34.240 groups and we're going to get her on a podcast, but, and for her, like it was a rejuvenation 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:39.660 of, of her ministry life. You know, she's, she's 70, she's retired. She's thinking, okay, 00:13:39.660 --> 00:13:44.300 it's, it's a, it's a young kid's world. Let, let them kind of, kind of run with the ministry. 00:13:44.300 --> 00:13:48.780 And so she was literally like ending off her ministry responsibilities to simplify her life. 00:13:49.300 --> 00:13:55.400 And then she discovered this niche of, of mentoring and discipling, you know, young professionals, 00:13:55.640 --> 00:14:00.880 young girls and the availability to just do that. And so she picked it up and ran with it. 00:14:00.880 --> 00:14:05.900 And so like one group wasn't enough. Now she's doing a second one. Um, so anyway, I can keep 00:14:05.900 --> 00:14:11.300 going. I can brag about my mom. Yeah. Kevin, tell me one story, man. Tell, tell me something 00:14:11.300 --> 00:14:18.620 cool. Yeah. So, I mean, I have, I have a lot, but, uh, let me just share with you the most 00:14:18.620 --> 00:14:24.620 recent one. So at Saddleback, we do what we call quarterly planning. So we meet, uh, every 00:14:24.620 --> 00:14:33.600 quarter and we just plan for, um, what new thing that we want to do. So, um, and we just plan 00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:40.100 it by week by week. And at the end of this planning section, we have what we call vision stories. 00:14:40.100 --> 00:14:49.040 What, what this is, is we have to write a fictional story. Uh, uh, if all these plans go well, 00:14:49.040 --> 00:14:56.460 what kind of story are we going to be able to tell to other people? How will it, um, make 00:14:56.460 --> 00:15:01.180 itself into a story? Cause we don't want to make it a, it just a work plan. We want to 00:15:01.180 --> 00:15:09.100 be able to see the vision behind it. So my story has always been, Hey, we have, um, a person, 00:15:09.100 --> 00:15:16.200 uh, who's in 40 somethings and who's just thriving in business. Uh, don't know the Lord, just doing 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:21.220 well on business, being recognizing knowledge in his neighborhoods and his corporate world and 00:15:21.220 --> 00:15:27.880 everything, uh, kind of type a personality. And I always use, you know, that he, he's a, he's in 00:15:27.880 --> 00:15:35.140 Ohio at Columbus, Ohio. I just make it up, you know, just to make it fun. And, and this person just 00:15:35.140 --> 00:15:41.680 goes through, you know, coast through life and is really driven, but some, something really happens 00:15:41.680 --> 00:15:47.080 where, you know, he starts to lose things and that could be anything. And it's just, we can just say 00:15:47.080 --> 00:15:52.680 that life happens and it could be health, uh, related things. It can be relational, uh, related 00:15:52.680 --> 00:15:58.760 things. And he just begins to drop everything. And, and in the midst of this, you know, there's a 00:15:58.760 --> 00:16:04.920 neighbor, um, of, of his that hands him the purpose-driven life book right here. We got to 00:16:04.920 --> 00:16:11.340 throw in there some, something in there and just reads the book, you know, gets to know that, you 00:16:11.340 --> 00:16:16.700 know, there's a online service at Saddleback and he's heard of Saddleback church, but he doesn't 00:16:16.700 --> 00:16:24.020 really know what it is. So he goes to our worship, uh, online and just watches it. And, you know, 00:16:24.020 --> 00:16:30.080 long story short, uh, accepts Jesus Christ and he wants to dive into what this means. 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:35.200 Um, he wants to know more about the decision that he just made. So he just reaches out to 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:43.060 us and he realizes that there's, that he needs to belong to a family, just like you were saying, 00:16:43.140 --> 00:16:48.080 Jeff. Um, it's not, uh, you know, church is not something that you put faith in. Uh, it's a 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:54.960 family you, you belong to. So he realizes, and there's some options for online small groups. 00:16:54.960 --> 00:17:02.300 So he joins the online small groups and excuse me. And then he just gets to know all these 00:17:02.300 --> 00:17:09.980 different people who are there to love him and support him. And after all of this, he decides 00:17:09.980 --> 00:17:15.140 that because we, every, every now and then we say to the online small groups, Hey, if there 00:17:15.140 --> 00:17:20.220 are people that are around you that you want to have home groups with, why don't you do that as 00:17:20.220 --> 00:17:26.920 well? And so he decides to do a home group, he hosts it. And then he starts to meet with, you 00:17:26.920 --> 00:17:33.900 know, with his small group to worship together and to have baptism and community, which we'll 00:17:33.900 --> 00:17:39.960 talk about. So that has been always the Maya vision story. So a couple of weeks ago, I went to 00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:47.100 Florida actually, um, in Tampa, Florida for a conference. And I, I knew there was a small group 00:17:47.100 --> 00:17:54.380 out there that was meeting and that was meeting, uh, it was really growing. So I thought, Hey, uh, 00:17:54.380 --> 00:17:59.720 it wasn't Kissimmee, uh, which was, I think hour and a half away from Tampa. So I just drove out 00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:04.720 there and said, Hey, I'm going to, I want to come to your small group. And they were getting ready 00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:11.980 for me and let's work worship together. And I just went without not really knowing who I'm going to 00:18:11.980 --> 00:18:20.600 meet. I knew of the host, but, uh, not the stories behind it. So I went and I just, um, started talking 00:18:20.600 --> 00:18:26.740 to them and her name's Connie and she gave me permission to share this wherever I want. Uh, 00:18:27.260 --> 00:18:35.900 and so she, her story reflects the vision story that I've been, been writing, uh, for past couple, 00:18:36.280 --> 00:18:44.360 couple of quarters. And it's just, Connie was doing really well in the business world. And, um, 00:18:44.980 --> 00:18:53.680 something tragic happens and she gets to a point where she cannot leave the home. So literally, 00:18:53.680 --> 00:19:00.960 uh, online church has become her family and her church. And she went to online small groups. She 00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:06.880 joined another online small groups. She began to host a home group. And then the midst of all of this, 00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:18.840 she, you know, gets baptized. And so, um, I, I visited her and we were, we were talking about it and I 00:19:18.840 --> 00:19:26.460 had a, um, this is my new life t-shirt. This is the baptism t-shirt that we do on our, our baptisms. 00:19:26.620 --> 00:19:32.180 And I just brought it not, uh, and I thought there may be someone that I need to baptize in my, 00:19:32.180 --> 00:19:38.880 in this trip. I just brought it and she saw the shirt and she said, Hey, I'm baptized, but this is 00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:47.200 such a, uh, uh, it's my story. Um, and she wanted to be baptized again. So I had a chance to baptize 00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:55.340 her again. Um, and this, so it, it was so cool that we had someone come through our, the, the front door 00:19:55.340 --> 00:20:03.280 of online church and she's now gathering in her home with, you know, friends and neighbors. And, um, 00:20:03.280 --> 00:20:09.700 that's just a cool little story of how, how our ministry really works. So sure. That's, that's 00:20:09.700 --> 00:20:15.940 awesome. And, and so, and, and Kevin, a lot of the listeners out there, man, they, they are starting 00:20:15.940 --> 00:20:21.420 this, this church online. Uh, maybe they're toying with, they're asking questions and, and like the 00:20:21.420 --> 00:20:28.120 story you, you just said there, uh, it's so powerful in the fact that it reflects an individual 00:20:28.120 --> 00:20:38.160 like Connie is a real life person who was impacted by, uh, by church through Saddleback Church 00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:45.000 online. And, and as a result of that and, and Saddleback providing online discipleship opportunities 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:50.260 for her to, to grow deeper in her faith and to strengthen what she believes, she got to the 00:20:50.260 --> 00:20:55.660 place where she not only wanted to do physical or not only doing virtual, but eventually even going 00:20:55.660 --> 00:21:04.720 to online, but to do a, a, a house, a, a home where now she's impacting people within, within her 00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:09.780 physical community and, and bringing in and that store, just the, the angle of, would you baptize 00:21:09.780 --> 00:21:16.100 me again? Like, it's so, it's so important to who she is. And so, you know, churches that are out 00:21:16.100 --> 00:21:23.020 there that are just starting out, like, don't forget the stories. Don't forget the people. Um, Kevin, 00:21:23.140 --> 00:21:31.120 how many times have you told that story? Man, since that happened, probably six or seven, eight times. 00:21:31.340 --> 00:21:37.500 Yeah. When you get the wins, church online people tell everybody and their mother, text whoever, 00:21:37.500 --> 00:21:44.480 put it on social media, like get it out there. Cause what you, and people who don't agree with, 00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:49.440 with church online or think church online is wrong, they, they can have that opinion, but, but they 00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:56.340 can't argue, uh, they can't argue a story. Like somebody cannot argue against whether or not Connie's 00:21:56.340 --> 00:22:03.620 life was changed as a result of church online. Yeah. And so don't lose the individual, uh, aspect of 00:22:03.620 --> 00:22:09.600 that. Celebrate the individual aspect of it. Yeah. And when you're discouraged, hang on to the, the, 00:22:09.600 --> 00:22:16.020 the stories like Connie's that that's so good. I just want to encourage, uh, the listeners if 00:22:16.020 --> 00:22:22.840 they're, you know, uh, if, if they're at a point where they're kind of considering to start it or not, 00:22:22.840 --> 00:22:31.180 man, there are so many stories that God's brewing. Um, when you started that you, you'll see so many 00:22:31.180 --> 00:22:36.840 stories of life transformation and life impact, um, through this, through this ministry. 00:22:37.360 --> 00:22:41.940 Amen. Awesome. We're not done. I felt like that was a great place to land the plane, but I got more 00:22:41.940 --> 00:22:49.120 questions. Remember. So what we're talking about here is, um, is, you know, challenges that people 00:22:49.120 --> 00:22:53.820 have against church online. And so, you know, church online can't have biblical community. 00:22:54.160 --> 00:23:00.140 Forget about it. Like, and Connie, Connie's a prime example of how, you know, and utilizing online, 00:23:00.220 --> 00:23:05.140 online, the offline. We've talked about that. Connie grew in her faith online. Then eventually the gospel 00:23:05.140 --> 00:23:09.840 impacted her offline world when she created her own home group. I mean, that's like the prime example 00:23:09.840 --> 00:23:14.860 of how online, offline works. You don't know what online, offline is. Check this, the, the show notes 00:23:14.860 --> 00:23:19.480 will link. And there's plenty of resources out there for that. But one of the other challenges, you know, 00:23:19.480 --> 00:23:25.380 that, that I hear about, and to me, this, this is, this is funny, but you know, I understand, um, well, 00:23:25.420 --> 00:23:31.960 it's, it's, yes, it's biblical, but the, um, you know, it's how this plays out kind of in the church world 00:23:31.960 --> 00:23:40.020 is biblical ordinances, things like, uh, baptisms, things like communion, um, some of, some of these items 00:23:40.020 --> 00:23:44.240 and, you know, and being a former online pastor, you know, I've, I've heard these stories all the 00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:50.300 time of, or the challenges of how, how do you do communion online? You can't, you can't do communion. 00:23:50.500 --> 00:23:55.780 You can't baptize somebody through a computer. Like, and so it gets, so it, it can't be church 00:23:55.780 --> 00:23:59.640 because you're not, you're not able to do this. And, and, you know, once again, you know, it's funny, 00:23:59.700 --> 00:24:05.100 the first couple of times I kind of like, I kind of like got angry. And so confession, confession is 00:24:05.100 --> 00:24:10.260 good for the soul. Right. And so when, when the challenges come up on me, I am a type A type person. 00:24:10.260 --> 00:24:16.480 And so somebody steps up, I'm going to step up too. Um, but it, but it's interesting how, you know, 00:24:16.660 --> 00:24:21.440 when, when you really listen to the questions about what they're, what they're questioning and how 00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:28.480 they're wrestling with these things and now, okay, how, so if you were trying to like lead a discipleship 00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:35.280 movement online and was important, you know, ask the person, how would you do communion and get them to even 00:24:35.280 --> 00:24:41.980 start to, to wrestle with, with what it looks like, kind of flip the coin a little bit on them. Um, but, but in 00:24:41.980 --> 00:24:46.980 your context, Kevin, I'd love some of the stuff that Saddleback's doing on this, you know, especially as 00:24:46.980 --> 00:24:53.280 you're looking at doing the, the home groups, uh, the micro locations that, that, that you guys are starting to 00:24:53.280 --> 00:25:00.280 grow into like, or just in general, somebody watching a service, how do you do communion? How do you do baptism? 00:25:01.080 --> 00:25:07.780 Yeah, for sure. That's a great question. And that, that is a question that we get asked often, uh, even in the 00:25:07.780 --> 00:25:14.600 midst of our staff say, Hey, so I know you guys do baptism and communion. Do you guys baptize people online, like 00:25:14.600 --> 00:25:20.240 virtually? So we get that questions a lot. So the short answer for that is no, we don't do baptism 00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:26.960 virtually. Uh, but we do. Although how funny talking about your guy with the gym, get an iPhone that's 00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:33.300 waterproof, like habit first, like, no, I'm totally kidding. Don't do that. Sorry to interrupt Kevin, 00:25:33.420 --> 00:25:40.920 please keep going. No problem. No problem. So we're all about just decentralizing and empowering people 00:25:40.920 --> 00:25:49.080 to become the, the person who can baptize another person. So what we do is, so I'll just talk about 00:25:49.080 --> 00:25:56.860 baptism first, um, for baptism, um, for baptism, because we have small groups, literally all around 00:25:56.860 --> 00:26:06.040 the world. And there are people who wants to make the decision of, uh, of being baptized. So whenever 00:26:06.040 --> 00:26:13.360 we get those requests, we just go through, uh, some, some of the basic trainings. And like I said, 00:26:13.360 --> 00:26:20.640 in the introduction, we try to look at the Bible and just draw out the essence of these ordinances. 00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:30.400 What does baptism mean essentially in the, in, in the biblical times and what, and for what Jesus 00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:35.840 says and what Paul says in, in first Corinthians, um, sorry, that's, that's communion, but what, 00:26:35.840 --> 00:26:45.300 what Gospels says about baptism. So we go through basic definitions of baptism and something that we 00:26:45.300 --> 00:26:54.220 really stress on, uh, regarding baptism is baptism is your outward expression of your inward decision. 00:26:54.620 --> 00:27:01.840 And baptism doesn't save you, but it means that you are already saved. So we go at the heart of that 00:27:01.840 --> 00:27:09.120 person's decision of taking, uh, of putting their faith in Jesus Christ. And as long as we confirm that 00:27:09.120 --> 00:27:17.440 we want to have you be baptized. So we would get on a three-way call with someone who's, who's already 00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:24.240 been baptized by immersion. And then we would go through this training together and say, Hey, so-and-so 00:27:24.240 --> 00:27:31.200 is interested in being baptized. And we noticed that she lives by you. And we would love if you could 00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:38.240 be baptized, uh, baptize her. And, uh, we go through the definition of what baptism is. And just like we're 00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:44.720 going through it right now. And then we just go through some logistics, say, Hey, um, let's pick a 00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:52.800 location, uh, like a lake or pool or beach where you can, you can be completely under the water. Um, and, 00:27:52.800 --> 00:28:00.400 and, and, and, and baptize you, if, uh, baptize one person at a time, if there's couples, um, you 00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:07.360 would want to baptize one person first because we want to make this an individual, um, event and, 00:28:07.360 --> 00:28:14.960 and, and just have people around, um, that person who's been a part of her faith journey. Uh, so, 00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:22.240 because this is a celebration. So we would go through these logistics and, um, of how you can, 00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:30.560 you know, do baptism in their, in their area. So, uh, we do all of the trainings virtually like this on 00:28:30.560 --> 00:28:37.040 a zoom call or on a, on an audio call. And we answer all the questions and we just release them. Hey, 00:28:37.040 --> 00:28:44.800 you're free to, to baptize and just pick a location and a date and, um, go ahead and, and baptize that 00:28:44.800 --> 00:28:51.200 person. So that's how baptism works for, for us. I, I, I love this. And one of the things, 00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:58.560 and you flew by it real fast, but what it, what it is, is it's, it's decentralizing the ministry 00:28:58.560 --> 00:29:05.200 in context. Uh, and so, and if you're, if you're serious about church online, you gotta look at that 00:29:05.200 --> 00:29:11.280 phrase of decent because in the reality is, and we talked about this with, uh, with Jay back in episode 00:29:11.280 --> 00:29:20.080 three is church online, as it grows, will quickly outscale, um, what you're able to do organizationally, 00:29:20.080 --> 00:29:25.280 you know? And, and I think Jay was, Jay was mentioning that right now there's like 50 people 00:29:25.280 --> 00:29:30.320 on a waiting list to get baptized. And so if it's, you know, if, and he was talking about if it's, 00:29:30.320 --> 00:29:36.880 if it's waiting for, for saddleback staff to fly out there, uh, you know, I mean, so that that's, 00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:41.520 that's a lot of expense back and forth to do that. But, but what I love about this is we're, 00:29:41.520 --> 00:29:48.720 we're decentralizing the ministry away from church leaders, church staff, uh, paid pastor professional, 00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:53.760 uh, and, and realizing, Hey, the same gospel works for the people as it does for the pastor, 00:29:53.760 --> 00:29:59.120 the same Holy spirit that's in the pastor is in the, is in the people. So let's train the, 00:29:59.120 --> 00:30:05.840 the people to do this, to, to be the pastor, be the shepherds, uh, to, you know, to be able to 00:30:05.840 --> 00:30:11.600 spiritually lead in those, those situations. And so you're, you're empowering not the pastor to be the 00:30:11.600 --> 00:30:17.600 hero coming in, but you're empowering, you know, the, the people to be the hero and, and leading, 00:30:17.600 --> 00:30:24.080 uh, in that situation. So, uh, I love the fact of, of decentralizing and I've, we've got some other 00:30:24.080 --> 00:30:29.200 resources and stuff we talked about. We'll put it in the show notes, but decentralizing it is a great 00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:36.400 way to empower and spread the reach of your ministry beyond just the, the circle of influence of, of where 00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:43.840 your physical church is. Yes, exactly. That's, that's exactly right. So we've got, we've talked about, 00:30:43.840 --> 00:30:48.960 uh, we talked about baptism, we, you know, some of, some of the trainings and that, and, uh, what, 00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:53.360 what is, what is, what does communion look like? How have you been kind of creative in that space 00:30:53.360 --> 00:30:57.920 or what does Saddleback do when they handle communion online? Yeah. Communion, we take the 00:30:57.920 --> 00:31:05.440 same approach of, Hey, what does communion look like in, in the new Testament? And we, um, basically 00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:11.600 look at Matthew 26 where Jesus does the communion with this, with his disciples and the first 00:31:11.600 --> 00:31:17.680 Corinthians, uh, where Paul addresses the Corinthians about the community, uh, about the communion. 00:31:18.560 --> 00:31:25.680 And we just realized that it's an, it's something that you do with your community to give thanks 00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:32.880 and to remember what Jesus has done in, in, uh, in their lives. And we just realized that this doesn't 00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:39.600 have to be in the physical building of the church, right? Because it doesn't say anything about the 00:31:39.600 --> 00:31:45.440 physical space. It just says, Hey, do this in remembrance of Jesus Christ and what he has done 00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:51.840 in the cross. And these, there are elements that are involved that symbolizes Jesus's body and Jesus's 00:31:51.840 --> 00:31:58.480 blood. And we just wanted to say, Hey, this is what communion is. It's meant to be done in community 00:31:58.480 --> 00:32:04.400 with believers. Um, real time. Um, real time. We just add that because we, we, we want to have some 00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:13.840 people in the, in the, in the same virtual place at the same time. And, and we say, this is something 00:32:13.840 --> 00:32:20.320 that you do for to, to give thanks and to remember what Jesus has done in your life. So it's gotta be, 00:32:20.320 --> 00:32:27.920 uh, for believers. If you're not a believer yet, uh, we just, uh, we just want you to actually watch 00:32:27.920 --> 00:32:35.360 and see what we do, uh, to, to, to give thanks to, to our Lord. So we just thought those are the 00:32:35.360 --> 00:32:43.520 essence of what communion is. And we just said, Hey, just like baptism, we want to empower you to do 00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:50.000 communion in your small groups. So for some people that would be home groups. So I think you can 00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:55.360 just kind of imagine, uh, what could happen in the home group space because they can get the elements, 00:32:55.360 --> 00:33:03.520 uh, prepare elements and they read the verse, uh, first Corinthians verse, and then they take a time 00:33:03.520 --> 00:33:10.000 to thank God for the forgiveness that they received. And then they take the elements and then just stay 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:16.960 sure, uh, about what, uh, what that means for one another for online groups. Uh, it takes a little 00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:22.560 bit more effort, but it's not something that's unnatural because we can just come together like 00:33:22.560 --> 00:33:29.840 you and I are coming together in this virtual space, which everybody's now acknowledging as a real 00:33:29.840 --> 00:33:36.880 legitimate space. If we come in a lot real time and then we prepare elements individually. So you, 00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:43.200 Jeff, you would prepare the elements, uh, just bread and juice, and I would do the same and go through 00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:50.240 the same thing. Uh, there will be a host or facilitator of communion saying, Hey, um, this is 00:33:50.240 --> 00:33:57.120 what communion means. And this is where it comes out in the Bible. And for what Jesus has done, 00:33:57.120 --> 00:34:05.680 let's take a time to give thanks to Jesus individually and take the elements and share in, in, in a conversation. 00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:10.240 So that, that would be what communion looks like on an online spot. 00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:16.240 So you guys, I mean, there, there's so much there, but in context of communion, you guys do communion 00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:21.360 more in the group environment online than you do in the, in a church service environment. 00:34:22.080 --> 00:34:26.960 You know, we, we used to do it in a church environment where we said, Hey, 00:34:27.600 --> 00:34:34.080 because we do, we do communions, uh, and we broadcast that whenever we do it at our physical 00:34:34.080 --> 00:34:40.080 campus. And we say, Hey, we're doing communion this weekend. So why don't we, you watch and do it with 00:34:40.080 --> 00:34:46.160 us? But we just thought Jay and I thought, Hey, we are all about decentralizing and empowering 00:34:46.160 --> 00:34:53.600 believers to do, uh, to these ordinances. Why don't we do a training? So we did a training last week and 00:34:53.600 --> 00:34:59.360 we're basically launching this idea of, Hey, you can do it with your small group whenever you want to, 00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:07.760 to remember, to remember what Jesus done in your life. So, uh, we're still doing the online service, um, 00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:13.920 and inviting people to do it with us in the online service, but Hey, you could do it with your small 00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:14.960 group whenever you want. 00:35:15.520 --> 00:35:20.880 We're more intimate, more familial. Um, yeah, there, there's a, there's a lot of good there. I 00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:26.640 hadn't, I hadn't flipped that switch in my head, but that's really a good idea. Um, you know, 00:35:26.640 --> 00:35:31.520 still do church, still do communion in context of the entire church. When you're gathering together 00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:37.120 as a whole body, even doing online, you know, at the same time as an, as an online former online 00:35:37.120 --> 00:35:42.000 pastor, like I've done that and I've, I've gone through those experiences. Uh, but there's something 00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:46.880 intimate about doing it, you know, in the, in the, in the small, um, six people, eight people, 00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:52.480 10 people, people that you, you know, um, you know, gather, get the elements together and do it 00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:57.600 either in, in a home group or, you know, virtually through like a zoom thing and everybody bringing 00:35:57.600 --> 00:36:04.800 their own, um, you know, uh, bread and juice or, or whatever the representation of a fed is, um, 00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:10.720 man, that that's awesome. But by doing these things, right, we start to, um, chisel away at 00:36:10.720 --> 00:36:15.600 some of these perceptions of what we can't be church online because we're not doing, 00:36:15.600 --> 00:36:21.600 you can't, you can't baptize somebody. You can't do communion. Well, no, you can, it, 00:36:21.600 --> 00:36:27.440 it looks different. Um, arguably, if you really look at some of the context and to your point, 00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:31.760 biblically, there are times where a church online actually looks more like the 00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:38.400 biblical model of the church than the church is, but, um, you know, uh, but I, the, so the, 00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:45.280 the, but the coexistence of online and physical, like, I think they both work together well. 00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:50.400 And so, man, you've told some, some great stories, uh, and some, some great examples. 00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:57.040 I will not forget Connie's story, uh, for, for a long time. Hey, we're going to link to the, um, 00:36:57.120 --> 00:37:02.160 the, the trainings, uh, that he had talked about. Uh, I think they're on YouTube, right? Um, 00:37:02.160 --> 00:37:07.120 yes. Yeah. Yeah. So we'll link to it in the show notes and, and you can have it there. So it's nice 00:37:07.120 --> 00:37:13.440 and easy, uh, and clean for you. Hey, um, just, just as we're wrapping up, we got maybe five more 00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:18.400 minutes, but like what, what, what's another challenge out there that you've, you've heard? 00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:22.000 I'm just curious. Cause this might, Kevin, this might be the thing that I'll see the next step or 00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:26.720 another, another episode soon. What's another challenge that you've heard? Hey, you can't be 00:37:26.720 --> 00:37:37.920 church because blah, blah, blah. Um, I think the, everybody has, what I realize is everybody has 00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:46.400 different definition of community. Um, and I think that the aspect of community is actually being 00:37:46.400 --> 00:37:53.280 developed as the technology is changing the world. So I used to think, you know, I was raised up in a 00:37:53.280 --> 00:38:01.280 very conservative church where, Hey, community can only happen in a church. Like you're, you're a church, 00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:06.320 but you're part of the church family. If you're inside of a church and you meet the other person 00:38:06.320 --> 00:38:13.120 inside your worship center. And so that has been, you know, my, my definition of community, but I realized 00:38:13.120 --> 00:38:22.400 that there's community outside of church, you know, in my school and in my, you know, there's people that 00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:28.720 I met outside the church that I still do life with, and that's also my community. So that kind of broke 00:38:28.720 --> 00:38:34.720 out the definition that I was given when I was being raised up in a, in a church. And I realized 00:38:34.720 --> 00:38:41.520 through the stories like, um, the, the, the working out at the fitness and through the stories of, 00:38:41.520 --> 00:38:47.440 of Slack and, you know, the, the story of the Slack group is actually, it was told by someone 00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:55.920 as, as a vice president of, of a very well-known company. And just to see that happen, uh, for our, 00:38:55.920 --> 00:39:01.200 for someone who was very successful, it just began to break down what community actually means. 00:39:01.200 --> 00:39:08.000 So the, the, the, the challenge that I get, the question that I get was, Hey, can you call 00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:14.800 a virtual community, real community? And I think the answer is absolutely yes, because, 00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:21.040 and I think the people outside of the church answer this question for us because they're already doing 00:39:21.840 --> 00:39:28.800 community, um, virtually and through the things like Skype and Slack, they're already doing it. And, 00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:35.600 and, and let me tell you something that I learned. Um, I was, I use Zoom, uh, mainly for our, our video calls. 00:39:35.600 --> 00:39:42.720 And I was trying to have a way to subgroup and subgroup we can talk about later, but it's a way 00:39:42.720 --> 00:39:49.840 to when in a home group, we wanted to put, um, kind of divide the group into, you know, men and women 00:39:49.840 --> 00:39:56.960 so that we can talk about things in a more intimate ways. And, and I was, you know, thinking of ways 00:39:56.960 --> 00:40:04.560 how we can do subgrouping online. And I was just talking to my volunteers and he, uh, one of my 00:40:04.560 --> 00:40:13.120 volunteers uses Zoom and he actually told me a way to do, you know, subgroups by using the, the breakout 00:40:13.120 --> 00:40:20.400 function in, in Zoom and they Zoom has just developed this. And my volunteer told me about this. So 00:40:20.960 --> 00:40:28.880 what I realized was, Hey, there are people in my community that are already using this at work 00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:36.640 and they're giving me solutions to my questions and my, uh, my challenges of how can we create 00:40:36.640 --> 00:40:44.480 authentic, realist, real, real, uh, community, and they're already putting the answers out there for 00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:51.520 us. So there are a lot of questions, but then with the effort of our community, I feel like we're making 00:40:51.520 --> 00:40:58.240 progress. That's awesome. Yeah. The breakout rooms are very cool. That, that is a relatively new feature, 00:40:58.240 --> 00:41:04.320 but you know, and the thing that I love about this is your volunteers, you know, your leaders, 00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:10.400 the people that are involved within your online community care enough about it to like dig in 00:41:10.400 --> 00:41:16.160 and explore and, and to learn what's out there. Um, you know, and I often found for myself that, 00:41:16.160 --> 00:41:21.440 that they were, they were, and I'm an, I'm a, an aggressive, innovative type of guy, but they were 00:41:21.440 --> 00:41:27.520 often people that were leading me and saying, Hey, have you seen this? Have you tried this? Have you thought of 00:41:27.520 --> 00:41:33.440 this? Um, and so like they were aggressive as well in trying to figure out how best to use 00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:40.400 the technology for it to, to solve a lot of these problems. Um, and to try to help proclaim and to 00:41:40.400 --> 00:41:45.760 get, you know, church online, the exposure that it needs. Um, well, I tell you what, Kevin, man, 00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:50.400 this has been a great conversation. We're going to have to do it again. Cause I feel like, um, we just, 00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:56.240 just, we barely scratched the surface of, of a much deeper thing. Uh, but I love what, uh, what you're 00:41:56.240 --> 00:42:03.760 doing and what J combination are doing out there, uh, to kind of push the, the limits, uh, of, of 00:42:03.760 --> 00:42:11.600 community in context of, of online. Like it's not enough just to do the, um, uh, just to do broadcast 00:42:11.600 --> 00:42:17.120 the service, but to work in the focus on creating that community piece. That's so essential. Uh, if 00:42:17.120 --> 00:42:22.480 we are really going to call church online, a church that functions in online space, uh, the best thing 00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:26.320 you said, and if I want, I want to sign up someone up just in this one statement, at least of what I 00:42:26.320 --> 00:42:34.560 heard today, uh, church don't become a bottleneck, uh, release some of the power that we would normally 00:42:34.560 --> 00:42:38.480 say, oh, that's something that church has to do, or, you know, let's get a pastor to do that. 00:42:38.480 --> 00:42:46.320 Let's put them on a list and we'll figure out how release that power and let, um, and train, uh, 00:42:46.320 --> 00:42:52.800 volunteers, train people to, to do those things, train them how to do the baptisms, how to do the 00:42:52.800 --> 00:43:00.640 communion. Um, you know, and you'll see, you'll see the ministries expand and grow because you're no 00:43:00.640 --> 00:43:05.920 longer the lid. You're no longer the bottleneck. It's, it's much larger than that. So decentralize 00:43:05.920 --> 00:43:11.360 that and empower people out there, uh, to become the spiritual leaders really that God empowered 00:43:11.360 --> 00:43:17.920 them to be. So Kevin, thank you very much for joining us today. Uh, this has been awesome. Uh, 00:43:17.920 --> 00:43:24.240 any 20 seconds, any closing thoughts before you go? Yeah, I, you know, what online church has 00:43:24.960 --> 00:43:35.520 allowed me to do was by thinking, um, what could be, it actually helped me to go deeper into the Bible 00:43:35.520 --> 00:43:42.640 and see the essence of what Christianity is. So I want to invite, you know, the listeners to get into this, 00:43:42.640 --> 00:43:48.560 to development so that you can continue to see what Bible Christianity really is. 00:43:49.600 --> 00:43:54.960 That's, that's awesome. There's so much to that, um, of, of digging into it. I mean, I've, I've often 00:43:54.960 --> 00:44:00.160 thought about doing an online Bible study just for like online pastors and some of us that are out there 00:44:00.160 --> 00:44:06.320 and just unpacking that because there's so much richness in the Bible towards what church really is 00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:13.840 that defines church online, but doesn't necessarily match the, what the typical of American church model 00:44:14.400 --> 00:44:20.800 has become not slamming the model. Just it's, it's, it's, uh, doesn't always match up. So yeah, I would love 00:44:20.800 --> 00:44:25.680 that. If you're interested in that, uh, hit me up on social media. Kevin, where can people find you on social 00:44:25.680 --> 00:44:26.800 media just as we close? 00:44:26.800 --> 00:44:35.280 Yeah, I'm on Facebook and I'm on Instagram, uh, as Kevin Chaehwan Lee. And I, I'll tell you what Chaehwan 00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:39.920 is. That's my Korean name, but, uh, you can maybe link that on, on the, on show notes. 00:44:39.920 --> 00:44:44.960 Yeah, we'll put that on the show notes and, and that'll be great. Uh, I'm dear Fedge on all the 00:44:44.960 --> 00:44:50.800 networks and hey, Kevin, it has been a pleasure to hang out with you. This has been great. Thank you 00:44:50.800 --> 00:44:56.160 for your time and your insight listeners. Glad you could join in and be part of this. Once again, 00:44:56.160 --> 00:45:02.240 next up episode eight, we've got Ben Stapley coming up, uh, talking about communicating in context 00:45:02.240 --> 00:45:06.480 of church online. It's going to be a great episode. You don't want to miss it. Uh, for Kevin, my name is 00:45:06.480 --> 00:45:10.960 Jeff. Thank you very much for being here and we'll see you next time on the church digital podcast. 00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:11.680 Y'all have a good day.