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 Hey everybody, welcome to episode 71 of the Church Digital Podcast powered by Stadia Church Planning.

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 Jeff here. I am excited about this conversation, about this episode, really because of how chill

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 this conversation went. It's almost like I'm sitting outside of a Starbucks because really

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 the first time that I met this person, Neil Smith, was outside of a Starbucks. It was actually

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 a very influential day for myself and the Church Digital because we were in Disneyland. Yeah,

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 it's crazy. All magic happens at Disneyland. Everything starts at Disney if you know I'm a

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 Disney guy. But in this situation, there was a very influential day in my life, probably January,

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 February 2018, that involved Neil Smith, who's the guest here on the podcast, Jay Cranda, online

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 pastor with Saddleback, Greg Atkinson, who you'll hear from soon, and Ray DeArmas, who is the

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 digital pastor at Christ Fellowship Miami. Honestly, the five of us were sitting outside of a Starbucks

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 and we just spent hours, literally hours, talking about what church online could be and how it could

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 make a difference in church and in culture had it been given a chance. And what's ironic is it took

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 a global pandemic to swing through here to actually get the church to pivot, to adopt to some of these

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 church online principles. And it's so exciting to see how the church is evolving in this season

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 through church online. And so for months, literally for months, I've been trying to get

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 Neil Smith on a podcast here. Nils is really kind of like this futurist type of guy, innovative.

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 By his own disclaimer, he's not a technology guy. He's, he's really more of just a guy who really is

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 very good at reading culture, looking into the future, anticipating some of the things that are

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 happening. It's one of the reasons why he's a phenomenal conversationalist. So I've been trying

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 to get him on the podcast because he's, he does a lot of podcasts himself. And I personally, I've been

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 wanting to do a podcast on church podcasts because I want to see church podcasts get beyond just a

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 sermon. And so for months, just between Nils and I, we've really had a hard time aligning our schedules

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 to have this podcast conversation. And finally, finally, things lined up and I was able to get

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 Nils to come in to do this podcast. Lo and behold, we didn't actually talk about the stuff that we're

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 supposed to talk about with church podcasts. Instead, we spent the entire episode talking about COVID,

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 about innovation, about how did the church needs to be entrepreneurial in this season,

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 to redefine who it is, not from a biblical standpoint, because that stays true, of course,

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 but how we operate and the models that with which we work through. This is a lot of what we ended up

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 talking about in this episode. Not at all what I wanted to, but such a deep, rich, thick conversation

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 that I'm sure you're going to get a benefit from it. So here's where we are. We're bringing in Nils

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 Smith, who is Dunham and Company, Chief Strategist for Social Media and Innovation,

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 as well as one of the OGs, one of the early pioneers when it comes to church online. At some

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 point, guys, he actually uses the word MySpace in this podcast, literally, like he was doing

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 church online in MySpace. Just let that sit on you for a while, MySpace. We're bringing in once

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 again, Ray DeArmas, of course, co-host here with the Church Digital, digital pastor over at

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 Christ Fellowship Miami, and myself, Jeff, with the Church Digital, as well as Stadia Church Planting,

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 in a conversation that I'm calling A Futurist View of Innovative Entrepreneurial Church.

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 Okay, everybody, here you go.

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 Well, awesome, man. Hey, thanks for jumping on this. I know it's a crazy season and life and things like

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 this. And I know we've been trying to do this.

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 And I'm curious to hear, I mean, Jeff, your world has to have blown up and exploded. I mean,

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 I think the timing of you kind of going all in on this and this happening, it's kind of such a time

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 as this moment for you, it feels like.

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 Yeah, I get that a lot. So traffic on my website literally shot up 1000% from February to like that

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 first, second week of March. And it was just crazy. I mean, I'm still getting, and obviously,

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 like, it's tapered down. The initial thrust was, how do we stream? We have no idea what we're doing.

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 And just jumping from webinar to webinar to webinar to webinar, and saying the same thing over and

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 over again, with that. And so a lot of content driven towards that. I was already doing the same

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 with Stadia, like going to be the director of digital church planning. And like the goal was to do this

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 like three year ecclesiology or this three year research and development project towards creating

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 a digital only church. And I've always been the controversial guy. Like, I am not afraid of like

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 hard statements and having people react strongly. I've never seen anything as two sided, as bifurcated

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 as a digital only church. Because there are either people who are like, I have been wanting to do this

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 for a long time. I'm in, how can I be a part of this? And I've had pastors look at me and say, you are

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 you are, what you are doing is a sin. You are theologically wrong. And it's like, you know, and so

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 there's two sides to this. And there's this one guy. And this is, this is a local pastor. This is a friend

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 of mine. Okay. This is a guy who's known me for years. He's like, Jeff. Yeah, I hear what

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 you're doing with like all this broadcasting services and things. I think it's a sin. I think

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 it's wrong. I think you're taking people away from the bride of Christ. You're taking them out of the

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 church. And we will never, we will never broadcast the service out of this church. Wow. Hey, bro,

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 no problem. Love you. However, I can help your church. You know, let me know. That was November

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 of 2019, March of 2020. Hey, yeah, we need some help streaming. Can you, can you come

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 over? Can you help us with this? I would love to. Let me come over. You know, I'm hoping,

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 I don't think as I'm watching the news, like COVID doesn't change the Bible. So like all

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 the theological concerns that that's, that's the Bible hasn't changed. So your theology shouldn't

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 be shifting now, you know, maybe your opinions have changed or cultural opinions have shifted

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 as a result of this. I'm hoping that's the, that's the answer. But it's been, I think the

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 reality is it's just forced people to do it. And then when they do it, they realize how real

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 it can actually be. And I think that's the big miss from a contextual standpoint of how they

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 perceive it. Yeah. Forgive me guys. And for jumping into this, but you know, this all comes back to,

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 everybody keeps questioning what the definition of what it means to gather together, right? Like,

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 like this is kind of the whole thing of, of why people keep questioning it. And now it's funny,

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 Jeff and I had a, we had a long private conversation about how a lot of theological shifts were going

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 to happen as a result of this in terms of what it means to gather, because we can't truly physically

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 be in the same spaces, but at the same time, and folks like folks like you, Niels, Jeff, myself,

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 we've been talking about how, man, it's very easy to gather physically, but still feel completely alone

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 in a room filled with thousands of people in a church service, still feel completely isolated,

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 feel completely by yourself as if nobody knows you. And every church says that, well, our answer to

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 that is small groups. And for some reason, when it comes to online, they're still antagonistic towards

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 it. They're like, well, you know, in person, that's where you're gathering, but, but small groups

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 online, I don't know if you can truly be known. It's like, oh yes, you can. Yes. Yes. And I would say

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 personally in my life, I, you know, we go to a physical connect group at Hillsong, um, and that's

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 our community, our small group community. But I'll tell you, there are people that I've never met

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 personally that I'm way closer with than the people in my physical small group at church. Um, because

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 there's a, there's a reality when you lean into relationships this way. And I think there's

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 a resistance of, of course, if you don't use it, you're never going to experience it. And

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 you can't have a legitimate opinion on it either. Um, it's just different though. I mean, it's

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 just never, it's never been around. This is history. Um, and, and, and people are just,

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 you know, it's hard to contextualize what's, what this is because it didn't exist 2000 years

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 ago. Um, but yeah, it's just, it's, it's such an exciting, crazy day. And I love, I mean,

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 I think about what if Facebook didn't exist right now? What if church online platform hadn't

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 been built? Um, where, where would the church be, um, without a few people that dealt with

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 the, you're the crazy nut, you know, um, and prepare, was prepared and set a model for how

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 churches can, can do this. Well, that's, yeah, if this, no, go ahead, Ray. I, you know,

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 I've been telling my dad, cause my dad's, you know, an entrepreneur, much like you guys,

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 like a lifelong entrepreneur. And I told him, I said, dad, we've got to be in the middle

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 of the modern industrial revolution right now. Like that even, and, and we can get into

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 future stuff. I'm sure either in this episode or another episode down the road, but so many

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 jobs just either aren't going to be there or aren't going to be, aren't going to be the

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 same when people return to the workforce coming out of this, because this whole thing is advanced

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 us in my opinion, about 10 years in terms of where we were headed. Yeah. Just kind of coming

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 out of it both in the church and outside of the church. Like everybody is saying, Oh man,

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 we're not going to be the same coming back into this and the sense of now we've got new digital

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 avenues. We've got new ways of doing this, but even from an economic standpoint, like things are

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 going to be done way more efficiently coming back because AI is just going to be that much more

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 available. Yep. Yep. I, you know, it's, it's, it's really interesting. Like, you know, I've talked

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 to some online pastors in this season and they're, and honestly, they're like, man, we're just going

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 to go back to the way that it was. And even online pastors, you're thinking that even, even online and

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 it's, they're discouraged. And I've had conversations with, with churches. There's a church, several

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 churches I've talked with recently, honestly, that, that have said the thing like, yeah, I just can't

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 wait to get back to normal. Like I do hear that. And so like, I kind of understand where, where the,

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 where the online pastors are coming from, or maybe they're feeling that tension, like within the

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 offices, um, within the virtual offices at this point, cause we're not meeting physically, but it's,

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 it's for me, for some reason, like I'm, I'm very bullish in this season where I think that this is

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 actually the catalyst that's going to cause change. Ray, I was actually just recently, um, for some

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 reason, the Ed Stetzer podcast was, was playing back there. I think I was trying to get a quote

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 or something, did a podcast with Ed. It was literally like the week before COVID hit. It was

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 funny in the, in the podcast, Ed actually mentioned, you know, the entire world's going to change once

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 this COVID thing hit. And Ray and I were like blowing it off. Like, yeah, he's just, you know,

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 blowing smoke and holy cow, it, it really did happen. But, but even in that Ray, in that conversation,

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 we were talking about, man, every year we talk about how the church needs to change. We say we're,

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 we're stuck. We know what we need to do, but there's no catalyst in our life, in the world to

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 actually cause the change. And then God brings the change. We're literally in the midst of this.

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 We live this hectic lifestyle. We're on lockdown. The church lives in this one hour on

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 Sunday. And now it's forced into a position where it has to engage with people seven days a week.

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 Like, it's amazing to see God move in the midst of all of the, the chaos centered around this COVID

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 season. Right. And like, and like so many shifts in modern history, right? Like whether it was the

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 inventor, the invention of the printing press and, you know, the, the Renaissance that comes out of it

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 and so many different things, like either you can embrace it or you can resist it, but either way,

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 change is coming for you. I mean, Niels, I mean, you're, you're, you're probably a bigger futurist in

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 this area. Like, what are your thoughts on that? Because to me, that's just the way that it's

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 coming. Yeah, man, I'm with you. I think it's, I, and I think some, a lot of us saw this already,

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 but this is to your point, it's, it's just, it's, it's created speed. I think the other thing it's

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 doing is it's speeding up new opportunity, but it's also speeding up the death of, I think there's a lot

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 churches that would, they won't come back, you know, like they're, they're, they're waiting, hoping to

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 survive this season and, and they won't survive it because they chose that. And, and I think, I think

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 too, I mean, I, I, I was talking to a guy who works for Lifetime Fitness and runs kind of this

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 Northeast area. They're, they're, they're having a, I mean, obviously a tough time. Everything's about

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 physical gatherings, but the opportunity that they see is commercial real estate is about to get

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 ridiculously cheap because people are going to start working remotely. People, a lot of storefront

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 businesses are going to not survive this. And so there's opportunity across the board and Lifetime's

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 well-positioned. And so while this is a short-term hurt, this is going to be a long-term opportunity.

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 And I think when you can just, just pull back and just look ahead, there are so many opportunities on

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 it, you know, and, and I don't know this, I can't, you know, could state this publicly, but I was talking

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 to a friend who is friends with Lou Giglio saying that they, they are realizing they were so focused on

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 their physical gatherings that, that they, they don't plan on going back to the way it was. That doesn't

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 mean they're going to not do physical gatherings in the future, but this has forced them to think

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 differently about church in the future. And I think that's good. That's happening for a ton of

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 people. But I, and I think as an entrepreneur, I see it from a business context of it's I just,

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 I've just bought a bunch of domains. And because I just see, I mean, I'm, I'm thinking of new

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 opportunities every, every hour that it's like, Oh, what, what is this going to do for work? You

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 know, an online work. And what is this going to do for the financial industry? What is it? I'm a part

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 of a healthcare startup that does like Uber for doctors. Well, people are no longer going to want

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 to go to doctor offices in a waiting room where there's a bunch of germs.

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 No way to do telehealth. Telehealth is going to explode. It's already, it's exploding right now,

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 but it will continue. This is the launch pad for telehealth. Um, this is the launch, but my mom is a

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 psychologist. She thinks she might never have a physical office again. She's, this has launched

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 her into, because even in psychology, you couldn't do the, the telehealth, uh, restrictions were so

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 great. Well, now they've had to open that up because people are depressed and they can't go to a

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 psychologist. So they had to, to, to free up psychologist and psychiatrist and everybody to do

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 remote. Um, so yeah, everything is, is going to be different and there's a business opportunity.

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 There's a ministry opportunity there. Uh, but I think the sad thing is, is I do think about, um, and I

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 think it's real, you know, those people that are in their sixties, seventies and, um, have resisted

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 change. And they're just kind of thought was, I'm going to ride this out. And then now they're

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 hitting a point where they're, whatever they were going to ride out no longer exist. Um, that's a

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 tough thing too, you know? And I think, I think there's, there's gotta be a sensitivity to that.

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 And there's a side of me that's like, sorry, you weren't paying attention. We've been talking

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 about this, but, but there is a side too, where it's like, man, this is, this is going to be tough.

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 I mean, you think about truck drivers and trucks driving themselves, you know what I mean?

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 And there's just so many innovations that, that are happening and we can see where a lot

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 of it's going. You just, it's, it's getting there a lot faster. And then I think people

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 thought money is not going to be worth the same thing as it was before. I think this is

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 going to, I'm into crypto. I think this is going to expedite. Um, and so, but there's

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 just so much, man. I selfishly, this has been great because I too, I like, I live on airplanes.

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 Um, I think my clients are learning that, you know what, we can actually do a lot, a whole

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 lot more through zoom and we don't have to pay for your travel. So I don't have to leave

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 my family. Uh, and I can do more ministry work, um, as a consultant. And so, yeah, man,

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 I'm, I just, man, there's so many things I could just go on and on, but my, my, that I'm

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 just having a hard time sleeping. Cause I'm, I'm so fired up about this season that is so

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 devastating simultaneously. Yeah. Yeah. We definitely, uh, you know, it's gasoline on

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 a flame in this COVID season. Uh, we were actually talking with mutual friend, Jim

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 Toberland, um, uh, podcast, you know, mid, late last year. And, and, and he was talking

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 about the progression of like comparing it to the multi-site movement of how it was like

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 the cutting edge thing. And then it was the cool thing. And then it was the common thing.

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 It was basically over a progression of about 20 years. It was a cutting edge thing.

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 And then 10 years later was cool. And then 10 years later it was common. And we were relaying

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 that out to how that would move across church online where, you know, life church, I think

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 started, um, uh, around 2000, uh, really when it became a cool concept was about, about, uh,

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 10, 12 years ago. So we're somewhere right now in the middle of from cutting edge to now

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 the cool idea where the cool churches are really doing it, but, but it's not, not a common

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 thing. As we were talking about how 20, 29 is the year, um, we've talked about in podcasts

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 where like the AI 10 years from now taken away, you know, X number percentage of jobs, like

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 20, 29 was going to be this, this like catapulting cultural shift year where it's going to catalyze

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 the church to really shift into some of these things. And, and like COVID wasn't on anybody's

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 radar at all. And now, you know, we're seeing this happen. It's like, Oh, Hey, it's common now.

00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:08.500
 Uh, you know, what is it? 60. I think I saw life voice that 61% of churches at this point are

00:18:08.500 --> 00:18:17.200
 broadcasting something online. Um, it's, it's funny. Um, 29% of churches, uh, was it life voice stat?

00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:23.360
 I'll link to it in the show notes, but I think this was like Barna 29% of churches, uh, are not

00:18:23.360 --> 00:18:28.440
 growing in this season or reporting. They're not growing in this COVID season. Ironically,

00:18:28.440 --> 00:18:34.680
 Barna also reports that 29% of churches refuse to do communion online. I don't know that those two

00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:39.520
 are related, but it's this really, it's, it's, it's a fascinating kind of connection that, you know,

00:18:39.520 --> 00:18:45.620
 even some churches aren't willing to embrace the full model or have like blocks that, Oh no,

00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:51.320
 we're not able to do these things. Yeah. But these blocks are really the thing that allows us as a

00:18:51.320 --> 00:18:55.820
 church, I think, to engage in, in online circles. Yeah. One of, one of my newest church clients is

00:18:55.820 --> 00:19:02.540
 Crossroads Church in Southern California and, uh, gotten to know their pastor, Chuck Boor, Boor,

00:19:02.680 --> 00:19:07.620
 Boor. I can't say his last name right, but he, I love him. I've not been listening to him preach for

00:19:07.620 --> 00:19:12.680
 years, but I, um, I've just gotten to know him personally. And he, he said, he's always going

00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:17.040
 to, it's been an afterthought, um, but it's become so real to him. And they had planned for

00:19:17.040 --> 00:19:25.500
 almost a year of this huge baptism service with connected to Easter. Um, and then he was like,

00:19:25.500 --> 00:19:29.380
 Oh, we've got to scrap that. And then after two weeks of doing online, he's like, no, we're,

00:19:29.620 --> 00:19:34.220
 we're doing that and we're doing it online and that's going to be very real. So they're,

00:19:34.220 --> 00:19:41.860
 they're doing tons of online baptisms. Um, and it's just fun to see pastors who have leaned in and

00:19:41.860 --> 00:19:51.140
 have allowed, uh, themselves to think ecclesiology, uh, about how they do church differently. And it,

00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:58.600
 yeah, it's just, it's just, it's exciting and it's not, um, yeah, it's just, I, I, I'm really eager to

00:19:58.600 --> 00:20:03.940
 see where this lands and even like crossroads. I'm curious to see when things are back to whatever

00:20:03.940 --> 00:20:10.280
 our future normal will be. Uh, what does that look like? You know? And, uh, yeah, it's, it's,

00:20:10.280 --> 00:20:15.780
 it's net things will never, there will never be normal the way it was. Yeah. Uh, but, but I think,

00:20:15.780 --> 00:20:19.900
 uh, there will be, we're not going to be in isolation the rest of our lives either.

00:20:20.320 --> 00:20:24.900
 And so, uh, yeah, it's, it's just the whole thing. Everything's going to be so interesting.

00:20:26.120 --> 00:20:30.320
 There will be, there will be digital churches that will come out of this. Like, and to me,

00:20:30.320 --> 00:20:35.560
 this is, this is the new term that, that we're using and stadia is, um, running with it. And we're,

00:20:35.800 --> 00:20:41.300
 we're helping churches move to this idea of digital. Uh, yeah, we want to go back to the buildings.

00:20:41.300 --> 00:20:47.180
 And, and as much as I push this digital only model, the buildings have a place. Interestingly,

00:20:47.180 --> 00:20:50.960
 I was on with Mark Venti yesterday. We were catching up on some things. Mark's the

00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:57.760
 executive pastors, number two guy over at church home. And, um, and Mark, Mark said this line,

00:20:57.820 --> 00:21:02.760
 he's like, Jeff, the buildings work for us. We don't work for the buildings. And it was this,

00:21:02.820 --> 00:21:07.900
 this fascinating concept where they've even like restricted, they've sold buildings in this season.

00:21:07.900 --> 00:21:13.080
 They still believe in the model of physical buildings, but they're also, you know, going

00:21:13.080 --> 00:21:19.160
 all in on a, on a, on a digital only model. But he was very quick to point out in the conversation,

00:21:19.640 --> 00:21:24.800
 Jeff, we're a fidgetal church. It's this mixture of physical and digital. You can't really go

00:21:24.800 --> 00:21:29.860
 exclusively one way or the other. And, and I believe that I think there's an option to do things

00:21:29.860 --> 00:21:35.880
 in a digital church to reach people in a digital way that you may not in, in, in a physical realm.

00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:40.460
 And so some of the conversations, you know, that we're even having right now are churches that

00:21:40.460 --> 00:21:46.620
 exist in a physical space that are learning lessons from this season and realizing, hey,

00:21:46.660 --> 00:21:53.280
 more than just doing our physical ministry online, what if we planted and did things differently in the

00:21:53.280 --> 00:21:59.340
 digital space? Actually, I talked with the church yesterday and the executive pastor told me, we asked

00:21:59.340 --> 00:22:02.840
 him, you know, through Stadia, it's like, hey, what are your goals? What do you want to do in the next

00:22:02.840 --> 00:22:09.380
 two years? The executive pastor says, our lead pastor's vision in two years is to plant the church

00:22:09.380 --> 00:22:14.920
 in VR. And, and, and I kind of, I looked at, I looked at the executive almost with tears in my eyes and I

00:22:14.920 --> 00:22:20.260
 was like, wait, like, wait, you're telling me your lead pastor knows how to spell VR? Like, stop right

00:22:20.260 --> 00:22:26.360
 there. That's a fascinating concept. And, and, and the, the lead pastor of an organization has a vision to

00:22:26.360 --> 00:22:31.860
 realize there is community in virtual reality. There's an opportunity for me to engage with people

00:22:31.860 --> 00:22:38.040
 differently. DJ Soto, like, let's recreate, let's replicate, let's reimagine these things. It's a

00:22:38.040 --> 00:22:44.380
 phenomenal opportunity that the church is. If we can just capture that vision and keep it going, we,

00:22:44.760 --> 00:22:49.500
 the church would look phenomenal if we're learning lessons today that are going to help us for tomorrow.

00:22:49.900 --> 00:22:54.000
 When I think it's, it's a digital space in comparison to a physical space. And so I, you know, one of the,

00:22:54.040 --> 00:22:59.100
 one of the conceptions, like, uh, I'm working with transformation church in Tulsa and they're,

00:22:59.180 --> 00:23:04.820
 they're considering, they consider themselves first a digital church that happens to have a location in

00:23:04.820 --> 00:23:10.120
 Tulsa. And this is a new mindset shift that they've made that, that Mike Todd has had for years, but

00:23:10.120 --> 00:23:16.920
 the church around, you know, everybody else never really got until, until now, but, uh, but they see

00:23:16.920 --> 00:23:26.180
 the really defining Facebook as a campus, uh, uh, YouTube as a campus. Um, and, and we're looking at

00:23:26.180 --> 00:23:30.820
 Twitch right now, you know, so Twitch would be in, we're trying to say, what is that community like?

00:23:30.820 --> 00:23:36.160
 As we go into the Twitch community, we don't want to just do it our way. We want to, we want to be a

00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:43.640
 part of the Twitch community and create a community that's native to their platform and, uh, the way

00:23:43.640 --> 00:23:50.560
 they form community. And so, uh, it's fascinating to think about their multi-site strategy is platforms,

00:23:50.560 --> 00:23:57.180
 not necessarily the internet, you know? Um, and then it brings, they come together in, in just like a

00:23:57.180 --> 00:24:02.240
 multi-site church. You might have gatherings where your three or four physical campuses come together

00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:10.020
 for special events, um, or has unified pastoral leadership and things like that. Um, but yeah,

00:24:10.020 --> 00:24:16.220
 it's, it's, it's, it's, we have no idea what that church home is fascinating. Mark is not a technology

00:24:16.220 --> 00:24:23.900
 guy. Mark's a pastor who is, and I think the less he knows about technology, the better, because he

00:24:23.900 --> 00:24:30.140
 thinks about it from pastoral mindset. Right. And he asked the technology people to align the

00:24:30.140 --> 00:24:34.560
 technology to the church's vision and it serves them. The technology serves them just like the

00:24:34.560 --> 00:24:39.120
 buildings serve them as just a tool to accomplish the purposes of, of the church.

00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:45.640
 That's good. Nils, why, why do you think it is that businesses, um, and, and granted entrepreneurs

00:24:45.640 --> 00:24:50.200
 tend to be ahead in this kind of thing, but a lot of businesses like Home Depot and others have

00:24:50.200 --> 00:24:56.000
 embraced the fact that, Hey, look, the buildings serve us. So we're going to invest a lot more

00:24:56.000 --> 00:25:01.580
 in this online space because we want things to be completely cohesive, but we recognize

00:25:01.580 --> 00:25:05.640
 that, Hey, if it's not profitable or if it's not really moving us in the right direction,

00:25:05.640 --> 00:25:10.100
 then we're okay with cutting our losses and moving on. Why do you think it's so hard for

00:25:10.100 --> 00:25:16.540
 the church to do that? I think people actually misperceive how far ahead the business community

00:25:16.540 --> 00:25:22.440
 is because a few, a handful of businesses are very innovative. Um, the, the reality is, is I've

00:25:22.440 --> 00:25:28.560
 gotten more and more into consulting on the corporate side as well. Uh, the corporate moves

00:25:28.560 --> 00:25:34.100
 slow, uh, a lot of corporate moves slow and, and, and, and we saw Toys R Us go out of business,

00:25:34.100 --> 00:25:40.520
 um, because they moved slow and they leaned into they, Amazon put their business out of business.

00:25:40.860 --> 00:25:47.560
 And I think, and you're seeing that happens so much to folks that, that, and, and think about,

00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:51.460
 I mean, I think early days of Amazon, they were a digital bookstore that everybody laughed at,

00:25:51.460 --> 00:25:57.580
 you know, and, and they put all those companies out of business. And, and so a handful of, of

00:25:57.580 --> 00:26:06.460
 innovative leaders and companies have thrived in, in this changing landscape, but 10 X that in the

00:26:06.460 --> 00:26:13.560
 companies that said that, that laughed at it and blew it off. And so the church isn't the only, uh,

00:26:13.560 --> 00:26:19.160
 entity to move slow. I think, I think just people, people, people's nature is to lean into comfort.

00:26:19.220 --> 00:26:25.200
 People's nature is to lean into what they know, um, and what they've known. And, and I think there's,

00:26:25.320 --> 00:26:30.640
 there, there are some of us that just are wired differently. And I, and I think I've learned,

00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:36.520
 like, there's a side where, uh, my wife has had to tell me like other, other people aren't lazy.

00:26:36.520 --> 00:26:42.280
 You're just a workaholic. Does that make sense? Like I'm wired differently. Um, and, and, and,

00:26:42.280 --> 00:26:47.080
 and I think it's normal. And that's where I think this is a moment for innovative leaders to stand out

00:26:47.080 --> 00:26:53.640
 and lead their organizations differently. Um, and, and those that, that, and there are leaders that,

00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:59.960
 that want to just settle. Does that mean, and I say settle like in lower and that's, and that's healthy

00:26:59.960 --> 00:27:07.920
 to a point, but that worked in a season, but we're moving into a season where changes is more necessary

00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:12.440
 at a, at a rapid state. And I, you know, I even think about like, I'm doing, I've done some parenting

00:27:12.440 --> 00:27:17.820
 web webinars this last year, or, or even some live speaking events where people are asking about social

00:27:17.820 --> 00:27:23.440
 media and their families. And they're like, Oh, it's going to be okay. Because they said radio was

00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:28.480
 going to ruin kids and television was going to ruin kids. Uh, and none of that ruined kids.

00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:34.240
 But the reality is the internet has moved way faster than television ever did. Uh, and we could

00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:38.640
 monitor that way easier. Now there, I actually believe you can monitor the internet more than

00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:44.240
 you can monitor those things if you're smart, but most parents aren't smart enough to be able to

00:27:44.240 --> 00:27:49.840
 monitor it, uh, like you can. Um, and people have access to more than they've ever had. So I think

00:27:49.840 --> 00:27:54.160
 the rate of innovation and, and, and it's not like we're going to get here and it's going to stop.

00:27:54.800 --> 00:28:00.320
 It's only going to get faster and faster and faster. And it's AI is, I mean, AI is going to

00:28:00.320 --> 00:28:06.400
 build things themselves. Uh, it's as you get into the future of AI, it, it is as scary as I think

00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:11.600
 people make it out to be in their minds. Um, and I think that's where the government's got to get

00:28:11.600 --> 00:28:16.960
 ahead of it too, of like, how do we govern this new world that's being created around us? And I think

00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:22.480
 then the reality is life is going to get easier. Houses are going to build themselves. Cars are going

00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:28.560
 to drive themselves. Groceries are going to be delivered, you know, our lives. And then that

00:28:28.560 --> 00:28:34.640
 brings down the cost of everything. Um, and so people can actually then just function as, as things that

00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:41.440
 only people can do in creativity and in creative thought and, and, and, um, relational, you know,

00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:50.160
 connection it's, but, but our minds it's, it's hard to, yeah, there's a long tangent on, you know, how,

00:28:50.160 --> 00:28:54.720
 uh, why churches move slow, but I, cause I, but I think the bottom line is it's, it's human nature

00:28:54.720 --> 00:29:01.280
 to move slow. And it's, um, it's the rest of us that think everybody's moving slow or just workaholics

00:29:01.280 --> 00:29:06.000
 and people that, uh, see the, we're the weird ones at the end of the day, but I'm glad to be a weird

00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:11.360
 one, you know, especially in this moment. There's, there's a tension with that though. Right. Cause

00:29:11.360 --> 00:29:18.480
 like I've even heard, I would say Craig Groeschel is by far one of the most innovative pastors in

00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:23.280
 America today. I'd put them in a room of three. I don't want to discredit some of the other guys,

00:29:23.280 --> 00:29:28.080
 but, but life church obviously is doing some incredible things. Bobby Grunwald and the team.

00:29:28.080 --> 00:29:31.840
 Awesome. Phenomenal. By the way, thank you. You are not listening to this podcast, but if you were,

00:29:31.840 --> 00:29:36.080
 thank you very much, um, not for listening, for doing what you're doing, I'm not that much of an ego

00:29:36.080 --> 00:29:41.440
 guy, but here's, here's the thing. Like I've even heard Groeschel talk, you know, at the most recent,

00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:46.560
 um, what, what, what is the, the willow Creek, the leadership, what do they call that? The summit,

00:29:47.280 --> 00:29:52.080
 the summit. Yeah. The leadership summit. Thank you. Uh, coronavirus brain, global leadership summit,

00:29:52.080 --> 00:29:57.680
 global leadership summit. Thank you. He used the phrase Gitmo. Uh, he literally is talking

00:29:57.680 --> 00:30:04.320
 about at some point, it just has to be good enough to move on. And so like the, the, the tension of,

00:30:04.320 --> 00:30:09.280
 okay. Um, I want, I want to change the world, but at some point, the perfectionist is actually going

00:30:09.280 --> 00:30:14.800
 to stop me from being able to do the thing that I'm really trying to accomplish. And so get it done

00:30:14.800 --> 00:30:23.840
 at the point that you can let it go. It's good enough to move on. Um, and for me as a, um, and I heard

00:30:23.840 --> 00:30:32.160
 that and it, when COVID hit, that was when Gitmo triggered for me in a new way, because for me, I'm

00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:37.120
 looking at, holy cow, my website just increased a thousand percent. I'm going to have to make some

00:30:37.120 --> 00:30:42.640
 changes because I have to, uh, there's just so much more impact and potential. I have to

00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:46.800
 let go of things. I have to ask others to come on, on board with me. We, we went from like,

00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:54.240
 um, well, I went from one writer in 2019, December to probably 25, 30 different writers writing content

00:30:54.240 --> 00:31:00.880
 for me in the COVID season. Uh, we, we onboarded 20, 25 people easy. I can't even like count. I can go

00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:04.720
 back, but I don't know what the number is. Like, I'm literally like, Hey, nice to meet you. You want

00:31:04.720 --> 00:31:08.480
 to write a blog? This'll be great. Come on. It's just, it was a phenomenal opportunity.

00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:15.120
 Yep. But part of that is because I, I realized that the lid of the church digital in that season

00:31:15.120 --> 00:31:22.000
 was me. Um, and, and, and I could, I could control it. I could regulate it. I could make sure my hands

00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:27.920
 were on every piece of it, but to do that, I would become the, the literally the flesh, the lid of this

00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:33.680
 thing. But if I were to step back, if I were to let others be involved in the process, um, the thing

00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:40.320
 would grow much faster because it wasn't dependent upon, on me. And so I, I think that the church has

00:31:40.320 --> 00:31:45.840
 an opportunity, I think maybe even to release a little bit, like I would, this is the conversation

00:31:45.840 --> 00:31:50.880
 I would love to have with, with the, uh, with the Groeschels and the Grunewalds. What's your

00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:57.520
 relationship like over the past decade? You know, when, when Bobby comes in with some crazy idea,

00:31:58.160 --> 00:32:04.320
 um, what's the response, what's that conversation look like? What's, what's the push back and forth?

00:32:04.320 --> 00:32:09.920
 How have you figured out? Cause you're both strong leaders. You're both driven. Somehow they've

00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:15.920
 managed to figure out how to release the, the, the, the tension, figure out how to work. And as a result,

00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:21.520
 that organization has skyrocketed in ways that, that, that churches maybe haven't. So there's an

00:32:21.520 --> 00:32:25.520
 opportunity I think to learn here. Go ahead, go ahead, Nils. I think the bot, I mean, there's an,

00:32:25.520 --> 00:32:32.800
 and I think they're, they're such a great case study for an organization that leaned into innovation and,

00:32:32.800 --> 00:32:39.520
 and, um, and have seen the fruits of doing, leaning in early, uh, to, to innovation. And they're,

00:32:39.520 --> 00:32:44.240
 they're so well positioned to, to, to, to where things are, are going because of that. You know,

00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:49.760
 they're, they're not capped, you know, uh, they, they just literally took the lid off 10 years ago.

00:32:50.320 --> 00:32:55.600
 And, um, and, and I think it happens for a couple of reasons. Um, and I think some of the mistakes I

00:32:55.600 --> 00:33:03.600
 see is, is there's such a, a high level of trust between Bobby and Craig that, that that's essential.

00:33:03.600 --> 00:33:09.760
 You know, uh, I think there's also, I've yet to see an organization thrive, especially in the online space

00:33:09.760 --> 00:33:16.320
 without a senior pastor or senior leader, lead pastor, who at least has a vision for it. It doesn't

00:33:16.320 --> 00:33:20.960
 mean they've got to be technology minded. And, and I don't think Craig, I don't, I, I've not even met

00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:28.080
 Craig. Um, I've been in some rooms with him, but, uh, I, I, I, I don't think that he's a technology guy.

00:33:28.080 --> 00:33:35.040
 I think he is incredible visionary that is, is, is kind of just like, whatever pushes the gospel

00:33:35.040 --> 00:33:42.000
 forward. Um, I'm going to lean in and Bobby has been his guy that he's like, I trust that guy.

00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:48.640
 And so I'll drive it and lead it, uh, from a vision standpoint, but I need you to create the

00:33:48.640 --> 00:33:53.920
 structure for it. And what I see, I see some, some pastors who are like, yeah, I want to go reach the

00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:58.160
 world online and I'm going to go get my 25 year old youth pastor. Cause he seems techie

00:33:58.160 --> 00:34:02.560
 to figure out how to do it. And then that guy creates a mess or the 20. And I think about me

00:34:02.560 --> 00:34:07.040
 when I was 25 and I knew everything, you know, and I'm like, why won't my senior pastor just give

00:34:07.040 --> 00:34:13.040
 me the keys to everything? Um, and the reality is if you throw the keys to that 25 year old,

00:34:13.040 --> 00:34:21.760
 he might be smart, uh, but he, uh, or she, uh, is, is, is, is 25, you know, like there, there is,

00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:28.400
 there's just natural immaturity that just comes or maturity that comes with age. And, and so I think

00:34:28.400 --> 00:34:35.040
 you've got to, uh, you've got to have trust and trust is built over years and it's, it's lost in a

00:34:35.040 --> 00:34:41.520
 moment. And so I think any organization that is going to thrive, it has to have, it has to have

00:34:41.520 --> 00:34:46.560
 multiple people driving innovation. It cannot be just one person. The top person has to be bought in

00:34:46.560 --> 00:34:53.520
 and they have to have people they deeply trust, um, that, that will, that will go along for the journey.

00:34:53.520 --> 00:34:57.520
 Uh, but I've, the, the organizations, I mean, this is a leadership, the conversation outside of a

00:34:57.520 --> 00:35:02.000
 technology conversation. When, when I've been a part of, and I've worked with organizations where the

00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:07.280
 senior pastor doesn't trust the people around them and he feels the need to, or she feels the need

00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:13.120
 to do everything themselves. Um, you're capped, you're immediately capped when you don't have

00:35:13.120 --> 00:35:20.320
 a core leadership team that you trust. Yeah. Can you speak into Nils, the cost of innovation too,

00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:25.600
 just cause you know, there was tremendous time costs. There's tremendous, uh, like you're saying,

00:35:25.600 --> 00:35:30.640
 trust costs to, to do things like, like what life church did that we're talking about, like the open

00:35:30.640 --> 00:35:35.120
 network for instance, or even you version, like offering that for free from the get go. Yes.

00:35:35.840 --> 00:35:38.960
 You know, they embrace the internet of free early on. Like I remember reading about that

00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:43.600
 in wired, like it back in 2007, like, man, the internet of free, how that's going to become a thing.

00:35:43.600 --> 00:35:48.640
 And I was like, Oh wow. Like, and here it is. A church was embracing that early on

00:35:48.640 --> 00:35:53.840
 to the point where they're giving away church online platform for free, like tremendous cost,

00:35:53.840 --> 00:35:57.680
 tremendous hours, all that in the background thoughts on that.

00:35:57.680 --> 00:36:03.440
 Yeah. You know, my, my Todd has become one of my favorite people in the world. Uh, I, I,

00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:12.000
 my wife is like your man crush on pastor Mike, uh, Jill. Um, and I, you know, I met him probably six

00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:18.240
 months ago and, and my, that's where my crush began. Uh, my crush maybe began, uh, from a distance before

00:36:18.240 --> 00:36:25.760
 that. Um, but he, you know, he, he shared with me his story of, of where, you know, and so transparently,

00:36:25.760 --> 00:36:32.000
 but, but five years ago they were a church plant. They had about 150 people and they met in a storefront.

00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:39.920
 And he said, God gave me a vision to that. We need to buy cameras and, and lean into, uh, our,

00:36:39.920 --> 00:36:46.320
 our video, um, and, and, and social media. And so he's like, I want, you know, that anyways,

00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:51.600
 they made an investment at $80,000 as a church plant to buy these nice cameras, because he was thinking

00:36:51.600 --> 00:36:57.920
 about what is this? You know, it was because he felt like God called him, you know, to do that.

00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:03.760
 He had about 50 people leave his church. That's like 30% of his congregation because they felt like

00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:12.160
 he, um, he was immature and was, uh, was, was not being a good steward of the church resources by

00:37:12.160 --> 00:37:19.280
 making that decision. Well, today their, their church and I, you know, as I was working with the Easter

00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:27.440
 services, uh, they just literally bought a new building, um, cash, a 4,000 seat auditorium, um,

00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:34.320
 and, and they, they moved in and now they can't meet there. Uh, but at Easter, um, and I was texting,

00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:42.320
 uh, with, with Pastor Mike, uh, at, and at Easter, they had, they had 40 times the people gathered

00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:49.600
 online in their live stream. They could fit in their room. Um, and, and, and so you, you talk about

00:37:49.600 --> 00:37:55.680
 a good investment five years ago, financially they're giving us up, you know, almost 20% since the COVID

00:37:55.680 --> 00:38:02.000
 crisis started, um, because they, they leaned in early. Uh, there is a cost with innovation

00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:07.440
 and the cost is sometimes financial. The cost is sometimes people. Um, the, the cost is people

00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:13.280
 calling you crazy, Jeff, you, you know, like, you know that. Um, and so I don't, you know, I, I still

00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:17.760
 remember when I was at community Bible church early days of like, are you really encouraging people to

00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:22.320
 get on Facebook? Like, why do you want people to get a divorce? And I was like, how did you correlate

00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:27.600
 me encouraging our church to use Facebook too? I want people to get a divorce. Now he did because

00:38:27.600 --> 00:38:31.680
 somebody in his, his small group had gotten a divorce because they connected with an old

00:38:31.680 --> 00:38:38.480
 spouse. There are dangers. There, there are things that as we lead new things. So the cost is generally

00:38:38.480 --> 00:38:45.280
 way more than money. It's often a lot of time. Um, and then it's also just leadership equity that you

00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:51.200
 have to earn. You cannot just say, I've got this title and I'm going to guide. And that comes with

00:38:51.200 --> 00:38:56.480
 casting a clear vision and, uh, and then taking some risks. And you, if you, you know, they always

00:38:56.480 --> 00:39:01.120
 say, if you don't fail, uh, you haven't, you're not innovating fast enough. Uh, you have to have

00:39:01.120 --> 00:39:08.560
 freedom to fail and, uh, and, um, expectation that that failure is a part of leading into innovation.

00:39:08.560 --> 00:39:13.200
 And I think for some churches, you don't have to lean into innovation. Sometimes you can be the

00:39:13.200 --> 00:39:18.000
 second person there. Life church has already led and it doesn't mean you need to copy life church,

00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:23.760
 but learn from, and Bobby would be the first person to tell you that they've made a lot of mistakes

00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:28.560
 along the way. Uh, and that's where they so transparently put stuff out there to like, say,

00:39:28.560 --> 00:39:32.800
 don't do this, don't do this, don't do that. Uh, because we learned, uh, and we don't want you to

00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:38.800
 make those mistakes. Uh, you know, we'll, we'll let you catch up faster. Um, because you, you came

00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:44.400
 second. And so some, some want to get there first, there's a huge cost of going first. Uh, but I think

00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:49.840
 there's a huge expense at going third. I think going second is probably one of the best places for most

00:39:49.840 --> 00:39:55.440
 leaders to be leading when it comes to innovation. I love that because yeah, absolutely. Because so often

00:39:55.440 --> 00:39:59.840
 this is when I worked in Apple retail, I kept telling people, they were like, man, isn't it so

00:39:59.840 --> 00:40:02.720
 great. Apple's leading the way. And I was like, no, they're not first to market with anything.

00:40:02.720 --> 00:40:06.320
 Yeah. I was like, they weren't first to market with a smartphone. They weren't first to market

00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:10.160
 with a media player. They weren't first to market with a laptop. They're, they're just, they're better.

00:40:10.160 --> 00:40:15.120
 That that's all it is. They're better than the people who were first to market. So other people may

00:40:15.120 --> 00:40:19.600
 walk through that door first. And every Android universe user in the universe is probably saying amen

00:40:19.600 --> 00:40:22.560
 right now. They're like, they're, they're like the Simpsons did it. Like they're the people

00:40:22.560 --> 00:40:27.520
 are like, we did it first. We did it first. But Apple just has this way of, okay, cool.

00:40:27.520 --> 00:40:32.320
 You did something great. We're going to try and just take that innovation and work it in our system

00:40:32.320 --> 00:40:35.360
 and make it better. And that's, that's kind of where they've made their, where they made their

00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:36.320
 fame in the last few years.

00:40:36.320 --> 00:40:41.280
 That's so good. I mean, and I think do it well too. I mean, I think leaning into excellence

00:40:41.280 --> 00:40:47.920
 is one of the keys there. And I think too many churches have tried to copy life church online.

00:40:47.920 --> 00:40:55.120
 And it's like, be you and learn from their core principles. And I think an Apple, Apple is very

00:40:55.120 --> 00:40:59.280
 clear on who they are. They don't put out bad products. They don't put out, I mean, even when

00:40:59.280 --> 00:41:04.080
 Steve jobs, like threw up, put everything in, everything needs to fit on one table is what he used to say.

00:41:04.080 --> 00:41:07.280
 And so they're like, we're going to do these, these things really well.

00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:14.640
 Um, and, and so I just left Apple because I'm bored with, uh, how, how, uh, how second they are.

00:41:15.120 --> 00:41:19.360
 Um, but I, but at the end of the day, I'm frustrated because my Android stuff and my,

00:41:19.360 --> 00:41:24.960
 my Chromebook stuff is buggy because the, because they're kind of going first in different areas.

00:41:25.520 --> 00:41:30.320
 Um, and Apple is going to do it right. And I think that there, there's a winning strategy

00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:37.360
 in going second and, but there's a fun strategy for some to go first. And Mike Todd is, is going first

00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:41.680
 and, and he's going to, he's going to have some scars by going first, but he's going to see some

00:41:41.680 --> 00:41:47.280
 incredible fruit. Jeff Bezos went first. He's got some scars. I guarantee you there's fruits there,

00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:52.240
 but there are plenty of other people that just watched Amazon and, and kind of rode those coattails to,

00:41:52.240 --> 00:41:55.600
 like, look, I can just watch what Bezos is doing right now and just do that in two years

00:41:56.080 --> 00:42:02.320
 and, uh, and, and, and be good. And that's what Walmart is essentially doing. Walmart's just riding

00:42:02.320 --> 00:42:07.440
 Amazon's coattails, just copying their business model with the infrastructure they already had in

00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:13.040
 place. And so, uh, and I think Walmart is probably the perfect example for churches to say, we're a

00:42:13.040 --> 00:42:18.800
 traditional business that was very successful, that has looked at where things are going. And, and we

00:42:18.800 --> 00:42:24.000
 have just, we have adapted and adjusted without completely abandoning our old, but I'd be willing

00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:28.960
 to bet that in the next five years, you're going to see half the Walmart's that you, you see today.

00:42:29.520 --> 00:42:32.960
 Um, but their business is thriving that more than it ever has.

00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:37.680
 Jeff Bezos: So this has been a fascinating conversation on the innovative entrepreneurial

00:42:37.680 --> 00:42:41.760
 church. This is not at all what I wanted to talk about, but that's what makes this so much better.

00:42:41.760 --> 00:42:47.600
 We'll, we'll bring you back to have the podcast conversation. By the way, I love the fact that

00:42:47.600 --> 00:42:54.000
 you've abandoned Apple, or at least are thinking about abandoning Apple. I've taken a lot of heat

00:42:54.000 --> 00:43:02.000
 because I'm an Apple fan boy who, as I hold my Apple pencil in my finger writing on an iPad here,

00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:09.040
 I myself am frustrated because the luster is gone. But similar to you, I, the other stuff's just not

00:43:09.040 --> 00:43:14.880
 good enough for me to actually like endorse and run with a hundred percent. So I'm still a blue bubble.

00:43:14.880 --> 00:43:20.640
 Jeff Bezos: It does. I'm not, I'm not a green bubble people like relax. I'm not there yet,

00:43:20.640 --> 00:43:25.040
 but I'm to this point where I'm like, I'm not, I'm not really feeling the blue bubble anymore.

00:43:25.040 --> 00:43:29.680
 So that's another conversation. We'll, we'll bring it back to that. I really want to focus on this

00:43:29.680 --> 00:43:36.320
 because you've used the word because there's a small church out there who has heard you use the word.

00:43:36.320 --> 00:43:44.800
 Um, here's innovation, who hears excellence, who hears life church, who hears all of these big words.

00:43:44.800 --> 00:43:54.400
 Dude, I'm a 250 person church. My camera is maybe a Mevo. Um, what's how, how am I supposed to compete with that?

00:43:54.400 --> 00:43:59.120
 Jeff Bezos: Like let's, let's, let's drill on that. How does a small church compete?

00:43:59.120 --> 00:44:02.000
 Jeff Bezos: That's their mindset. How do I compete with life church?

00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:06.960
 Jeff Bezos: And that's why I think that the transformation church story is, is so powerful

00:44:07.600 --> 00:44:15.920
 in that they were five years ago, uh, a, a 200 member, you know, church plant and, and might cast a

00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:22.240
 vision for this camera equipment and prioritizing online because that's going to be their front door.

00:44:23.040 --> 00:44:27.600
 And, and then that also expanded into their kind of multi-site strategy, all kinds of other things, but

00:44:28.160 --> 00:44:32.800
 Jeff Bezos: They saw that as their front door from a giving standpoint and transformation has been

00:44:32.800 --> 00:44:38.480
 unbelievably transparent in their, their first year that they, they, they had like $1.5 million

00:44:38.480 --> 00:44:42.880
 budget. So that, which is great for a church plant. And they, they grew very fast early on.

00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:47.200
 Jeff Bezos: Then after they bought those cameras, their budget dropped to like 1.2 million,

00:44:47.200 --> 00:44:51.200
 Jeff Bezos: I think because people left. Uh, and then the next year was about 3 million.

00:44:51.200 --> 00:44:57.200
 Jeff Bezos: And then the next year was, uh, I think this last year was like over 20 million

00:44:57.680 --> 00:45:02.960
 Jeff Bezos: Given they bought a building cash. This is, was a five year old church. Now that came

00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:11.440
 with Mike, listen to God. Uh, Mike led with a clear vision. Um, and, and, and he, he, he continued to

00:45:11.440 --> 00:45:17.280
 Jeff Bezos: Push. And I mean, I think I, I give so much credit to, to God blessing that unique

00:45:17.280 --> 00:45:24.960
 situation and in the movement of God, but I also Mike listened to God, you know, and, and leaned in and,

00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:28.960
 Jeff Bezos: and, and, and God moved. That doesn't mean every church is going to be, and you shouldn't

00:45:28.960 --> 00:45:33.040
 Jeff Bezos: Just follow the transformation model, but I think it, it starts with having a vision.

00:45:33.040 --> 00:45:38.800
 Jeff Bezos: And I think this is, I just did a Facebook live or your live stream or before this of, um,

00:45:39.840 --> 00:45:44.160
 Jeff Bezos: A friend of mine just has been speaking the word exponential into me. And, um, and honestly,

00:45:44.160 --> 00:45:48.000
 Jeff Bezos: I have, you know, I've, I've gone charismatic since I went, started going to Hillsong.

00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:52.160
 Jeff Bezos: And so there, there's a guy who just kind of spoke a prophetic word, uh, over me.

00:45:52.160 --> 00:45:57.280
 Jeff Bezos: And, uh, and that word exponential has kind of been the word I've leaned into this year.

00:45:57.280 --> 00:46:01.680
 Jeff Bezos: And, and, and somebody spoke it to me yesterday and it kind of restart of, of we're

00:46:01.680 --> 00:46:07.840
 Jeff Bezos: in a moment where everyone can be rethinking everything. And if you, if you're in this assembly

00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:14.320
 Jeff Bezos: line of just feeling stuck, or what do we do next? This is the perfect moment to say

00:46:15.440 --> 00:46:18.960
 Jeff Bezos: we're going to do things different. And it doesn't mean you need to go to online campus,

00:46:18.960 --> 00:46:24.320
 Jeff Bezos: but I think a lot of pastors and administrators have stopped listening to God. And they've just said,

00:46:24.320 --> 00:46:28.720
 Jeff Bezos: I'm going to do church and I'm going to pray, but praying means I'm going to pray for

00:46:28.720 --> 00:46:34.640
 Jeff Bezos: my congregation. Praying means I'm going to, uh, just pray for you to bless my efforts with

00:46:34.640 --> 00:46:40.080
 Jeff Bezos: the church and the church, the way I do church and the way that, um, Saddleback does church,

00:46:40.080 --> 00:46:44.320
 Jeff Bezos: because I follow the purpose driven model. I think these models are great, but where is God

00:46:44.320 --> 00:46:51.040
 Jeff Bezos: calling your church? Uh, and it might be to lead it and be stable and just die over the next 20 years.

00:46:51.520 --> 00:46:56.720
 Jeff Bezos: Uh, that, that, that might be your calling. I don't know. Uh, but, but I believe that

00:46:56.720 --> 00:47:02.080
 Jeff Bezos: there is a ministry opportunity, uh, that, that exists online and it might be to, you know,

00:47:02.080 --> 00:47:08.160
 Jeff Bezos: I helped a church recently plant a church in Iran exclusively on the internet. They can't plant it. I mean,

00:47:08.160 --> 00:47:13.200
 Jeff Bezos: there are house churches and things that you can plant, uh, but they literally, it's a digital

00:47:13.200 --> 00:47:18.960
 Jeff Bezos: church in Iran and, uh, and they do digital small groups and they do digital worship gatherings

00:47:18.960 --> 00:47:23.760
 Jeff Bezos: through stream yard. And there are literally people in Iran that are a part of the service and

00:47:23.760 --> 00:47:28.080
 Jeff Bezos: people outside of Iran that are part of the service. There are opportunities that didn't exist.

00:47:28.080 --> 00:47:31.440
 Jeff Bezos: You couldn't have done that a couple of years ago and the internet wasn't fast enough there in

00:47:31.440 --> 00:47:37.360
 Jeff Bezos: Iran a couple of years ago. Um, and so you, you, there are just, there, there are so many

00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:43.840
 Jeff Bezos: opportunities for a leader to just pull back right now and pray, you know, and, and just say

00:47:44.400 --> 00:47:50.720
 Jeff Bezos: what, and, and I think what Mike said, Mike had a vision to, to, to reach the world. Um,

00:47:50.720 --> 00:47:56.880
 Jeff Bezos: I had, I, you know, I'll tell you, uh, this is, this is, I'll get personal here. Um, when I started online church, uh,

00:47:56.880 --> 00:48:02.720
 Jeff Bezos: at CBC with online church.com. I had a very clear vision, um, that I believe is from God

00:48:02.720 --> 00:48:07.440
 Jeff Bezos: of, of a worship gathering that's going to, and I've never shared this publicly, I don't think,

00:48:07.440 --> 00:48:14.960
 Jeff Bezos: uh, but that's net that that that's that there will be people from every country and territory around the world in a worship gathering

00:48:15.520 --> 00:48:20.640
 Jeff Bezos: Um, and, and at, at the same time. And I don't think that's ever happened.

00:48:21.120 --> 00:48:26.720
 Jeff Bezos: Um, and, and, and I, and I believe that in the next year to two years, we will actually see that moment

00:48:26.720 --> 00:48:32.960
 Jeff Bezos: happening happen. Um, and it, it seems so impossible to me 10 years ago today. It seems so

00:48:32.960 --> 00:48:37.760
 Jeff Bezos: possible. And that's a vision because I, I, in that moment I was listening to God and where,

00:48:37.760 --> 00:48:42.000
 Jeff Bezos: and, and I've been kind of like even a lot of the things in the leaders I've invested into

00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:47.520
 Jeff Bezos: the more I hear somebody casting a vision for that, that's where I align as a consultant of like,

00:48:47.520 --> 00:48:51.440
 Jeff Bezos: I want to get next to you and, and help help guide you towards that vision.

00:48:51.440 --> 00:48:56.560
 Jeff Bezos: But there are other people that have a different vision from God and in a different calling from God

00:48:56.560 --> 00:49:01.360
 Jeff Bezos: Um, and it might be a different direction. I just think a lot of people haven't leaned into the internet

00:49:01.360 --> 00:49:05.520
 Jeff Bezos: Because, because honestly, they're not, they're not, they're not leaning into God.

00:49:05.520 --> 00:49:08.960
 Jeff Bezos: Uh, and it doesn't mean God's going to call everyone to the internet.

00:49:08.960 --> 00:49:18.080
 Jeff Bezos: I think, though, we just, we put, we put God in a box of this is this the box of a church in a church building and

00:49:18.080 --> 00:49:22.880
 Jeff Bezos: We do worship and we, and I'm a Saddleback guy. I went to Rockbridge Seminary.

00:49:22.880 --> 00:49:29.040
 Jeff Bezos: And so it's like we do worship. We do, you know, uh, small groups. We do, you know, missions.

00:49:29.040 --> 00:49:33.920
 Jeff Bezos: And, and we do it in this way. Well, the reality is, if you take the five purposes of Saddleback

00:49:33.920 --> 00:49:38.000
 Jeff Bezos: and, you know, Rick Warren's purpose-driven church, it all fits into the internet.

00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:44.000
 Jeff Bezos: Uh, it fits into, you can do worship online. You can do small groups online. You can fellowship online. You can do discipleship online.

00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:50.960
 Jeff Bezos: Uh, you can do missions online. Um, it, you, the internet is, is just another tool.

00:49:50.960 --> 00:49:56.160
 Jeff Bezos: So I, you know, I, I think there's just so many opportunities and I think pastors are not

00:49:56.800 --> 00:50:01.360
 Jeff Bezos: leaning into the opportunity. And, and I, and I, and I might be overstating it to say the pastors

00:50:01.360 --> 00:50:06.640
 Jeff Bezos: aren't listening to God, but I believe that there's so much opportunity there. And I think there are some

00:50:06.640 --> 00:50:13.280
 Jeff Bezos: digital missionaries out there that don't yet, uh, and are scared to take that leap that God

00:50:13.280 --> 00:50:17.920
 Jeff Bezos: might be pushing on them. And I think this moment, uh, that we're all sitting in is, is probably

00:50:17.920 --> 00:50:25.280
 Jeff Bezos: stirring a lot of those people. And I hope that they will, it's going to get hard. Does that make sense? It might be fun right now.

00:50:25.280 --> 00:50:30.960
 Jeff Bezos: Uh, but, but as you lean in and, and if people aren't calling you crazy, I don't think you're leaning in hard enough.

00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:35.840
 Jeff Bezos: Right. Um, and so I, yeah, I just, I just want to see some pastors, uh, and it doesn't mean they have to

00:50:35.840 --> 00:50:40.880
 Jeff Bezos: have a physical. I'd rather see some Jeff, even to your point of, I'd rather see some just say I'm going to plant

00:50:40.880 --> 00:50:46.960
 Jeff Bezos: a digital church. And if we end up having physical gatherings, cool. If we don't, we're going to start on

00:50:46.960 --> 00:50:55.440
 Jeff Bezos: Twitch and Twitch is going to be our, our, our first campus. Um, and, or we're gonna start on Facebook or we're gonna, you know,

00:50:55.440 --> 00:51:00.880
 Jeff Bezos: whatever it might be. Uh, but yeah, I just think there's so many and we just haven't even thought of the

00:51:00.880 --> 00:51:05.760
 Jeff Bezos: Facebook. When I started online church, I come Facebook. I don't think video was even possible

00:51:05.760 --> 00:51:10.560
 Jeff Bezos: yet on Facebook back then, you know, and then Facebook live. I mean, I, you know, get an iPhone and

00:51:10.560 --> 00:51:15.840
 Jeff Bezos: you can, anybody can start a church tomorrow. Um, in a church, you know, at the core is just people

00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:21.200
 Jeff Bezos: gathering, you know, as people in community. Um, we, you don't have to have a license to start a church.

00:51:21.200 --> 00:51:30.800
 Jeff Bezos: Well, from one crazy guy to another crazy guy. Um, thanks for being crazy. Uh, it's, it's been, uh, it's, it's been

00:51:30.800 --> 00:51:35.600
 Jeff Bezos: a crazy run. Uh, by the way, I'm gonna do a little commercial here. If you are interested

00:51:35.600 --> 00:51:40.080
 Jeff Bezos: in planting a digital church or any of the stuff that that Nils was just talking about,

00:51:40.080 --> 00:51:44.800
 Jeff Bezos: I do apologize for the commercial. Stadia, we're literally recruiting digital church

00:51:44.800 --> 00:51:50.240
 Jeff Bezos: planners to do exactly what my man's talking about. So, um, you know, looking at your

00:51:50.240 --> 00:51:56.000
 Jeff Bezos: circle of influence and what you're passionate about figuring out how to utilize

00:51:56.000 --> 00:52:02.160
 Jeff Bezos: that passion to reach disciple and grow. Yeah. Uh, an ecclesiological model

00:52:02.160 --> 00:52:05.520
 Jeff Bezos: of church in a digital space. It's possible you can do it.

00:52:05.520 --> 00:52:09.600
 Jeff Bezos: Tell me how Stadia comes along. So if a pastor

00:52:09.600 --> 00:52:14.640
 Jeff Bezos: says, I want to plant a digital church. How does Stadia come alongside a pastor to do that?

00:52:14.640 --> 00:52:19.440
 Jeff Bezos: I am glad you asked. Thank you for that, Nils. So right now we're actually in the process

00:52:19.440 --> 00:52:25.360
 Jeff Bezos: of developing some fidgetal learning communities where we're literally taking

00:52:25.360 --> 00:52:32.080
 Jeff Bezos: I've we're developing a lineup of pastors to be part of this, of innovators. A lot of the

00:52:32.080 --> 00:52:37.120
 Jeff Bezos: people that have been on this podcast and others to come in here and speak as part of this

00:52:37.120 --> 00:52:41.200
 Jeff Bezos: learning community for about six months. We're looking at taking people through hitting

00:52:41.200 --> 00:52:47.600
 Jeff Bezos: things like how to be fidgetal, how to staff digital pastor mean. How do you get the entire staff

00:52:47.600 --> 00:52:54.800
 Jeff Bezos: to be invested and engaged in a fidgetal mindset, digital and physical? What does it mean

00:52:54.800 --> 00:53:01.040
 Jeff Bezos: target to work with digital community? How do you create a small group that that's reproducing itself?

00:53:01.040 --> 00:53:08.960
 Jeff Bezos: What does disciples making mean digitally? What are the challenges? How do you become the coldness of technology

00:53:09.920 --> 00:53:16.080
 Jeff Bezos: with with Christ? How do you create a disciple maker in the space? All sorts. Man, the speakers we've got

00:53:16.080 --> 00:53:23.520
 Jeff Bezos: coming in. Well, I'm just gonna tell you this. Go to StadiaChurchPlanning.org/Vigital. P-H-Y-G-I-T-A-L.

00:53:23.520 --> 00:53:30.560
 Jeff Bezos: I totally appreciate the nod there, Nils. It wasn't necessary, but anytime I get to talk about Stadia, I love

00:53:30.560 --> 00:53:37.360
 Jeff Bezos: doing that. And I'm excited about what's happening there. So if you're wrestling with this space, we'd love to have you in there.

00:53:37.360 --> 00:53:43.760
 Jeff Bezos: And aside from even churches, because as part of helping churches understand how to be fidgetal,

00:53:44.560 --> 00:53:49.840
 Jeff Bezos: understanding churches, how to plant digital only, that's part of the process that we're doing.

00:53:49.840 --> 00:53:55.280
 Jeff Bezos: Another part that we're doing really is working with individuals, people who are not

00:53:55.280 --> 00:54:00.800
 Jeff Bezos: connected with churches, who are saying, I have a passion about an area.

00:54:00.800 --> 00:54:04.880
 Jeff Bezos: You know, a guy's like, man, I'm really into alt-VR.

00:54:04.880 --> 00:54:11.360
 Jeff Bezos: And I'm thinking about what would it be like to be another DJ Soto doing a VR church?

00:54:11.360 --> 00:54:15.200
 Jeff Bezos: Well, we want to come alongside you and help in that.

00:54:15.200 --> 00:54:16.480
 Jeff Bezos: That's good.

00:54:16.480 --> 00:54:20.560
 Jeff Bezos: And so like a lot of this is not let's help on the church side, because I think the churches

00:54:20.560 --> 00:54:23.680
 Jeff Bezos: need to understand this to resource individuals.

00:54:23.680 --> 00:54:28.480
 Jeff Bezos: But part of what we're also doing is resourcing individuals to helping them understand

00:54:28.480 --> 00:54:30.880
 Jeff Bezos: what that is and helping them grow.

00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:35.040
 Jeff Bezos: And even more than, you know, the phrase is thrive, grow and multiply.

00:54:35.040 --> 00:54:37.920
 Jeff Bezos: We want to help churches understand how to thrive, grow and multiply.

00:54:37.920 --> 00:54:42.720
 Jeff Bezos: We also want to help individuals who are interested in planting their own thing,

00:54:42.720 --> 00:54:45.280
 Jeff Bezos: thrive, grow and multiply through that.

00:54:45.280 --> 00:54:48.240
 Jeff Bezos: So either way, hit me up.

00:54:48.240 --> 00:54:49.680
 Jeff Bezos: My information's in the show notes.

00:54:49.680 --> 00:54:54.080
 Jeff Bezos: And I, Stadia, we would love to have a conversation with you on that.

00:54:54.720 --> 00:54:56.720
 Jeff Bezos: Totally was not anticipating going in commercial.

00:54:56.720 --> 00:54:57.040
 Jeff Bezos: Digital, by the way.

00:54:57.040 --> 00:54:57.760
 Jeff Bezos: Digital, yeah.

00:54:57.760 --> 00:54:59.440
 Jeff Bezos: Thank you for that.

00:54:59.440 --> 00:55:02.240
 Jeff Bezos: And I, you know, it's funny.

00:55:02.240 --> 00:55:04.720
 Jeff Bezos: I'm actually trying to remember where it came from.

00:55:04.720 --> 00:55:06.000
 Jeff Bezos: It's a business phrase.

00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:09.920
 Jeff Bezos: Like it's one of those things that I think the business world's a little ahead of us,

00:55:10.560 --> 00:55:14.080
 Jeff Bezos: the church side, maybe not as far to your point as we think they are,

00:55:14.080 --> 00:55:15.280
 Jeff Bezos: but they are ahead.

00:55:15.280 --> 00:55:20.080
 Jeff Bezos: And so the combination of physical and digital merging together.

00:55:20.080 --> 00:55:24.640
 Jeff Bezos: We're, we're, we're digital people, especially coming out of this COVID season,

00:55:24.640 --> 00:55:27.760
 Jeff Bezos: We are going to be very digital people.

00:55:27.760 --> 00:55:34.000
 Jeff Bezos: And so utilizing churches, understanding how to not, it's not about the services,

00:55:34.000 --> 00:55:38.480
 Jeff Bezos: but about how to utilize the digital to disciple someone,

00:55:38.480 --> 00:55:43.360
 Jeff Bezos: to be involved in their life seven days a week to help them grow deeper,

00:55:43.360 --> 00:55:47.680
 Jeff Bezos: to empower them to utilize the digital technology to connect with others,

00:55:47.680 --> 00:55:52.160
 Jeff Bezos: to disciple more people, to get them connected in God in a new way.

00:55:52.160 --> 00:55:57.040
 Jeff Bezos: I, we, we just, we had this, and this is, it's a podcast we did recently with,

00:55:57.040 --> 00:55:58.240
 Jeff Bezos: with Tyler Sansom.

00:55:58.240 --> 00:56:01.600
 Jeff Bezos: And I have never, I had never thought of this.

00:56:01.600 --> 00:56:04.800
 Jeff Bezos: Tyler's like, hey, so one of the things we do between services

00:56:05.360 --> 00:56:08.480
 Jeff Bezos: and small groups that just meet people, get them connected,

00:56:08.480 --> 00:56:11.440
 Jeff Bezos: kind of in a, in a welcoming area.

00:56:11.440 --> 00:56:16.080
 Jeff Bezos: You know, the feature on Netflix, where it's like the watch party,

00:56:17.120 --> 00:56:20.240
 Jeff Bezos: where you can like watch the same Netflix video all at the same time.

00:56:20.240 --> 00:56:23.680
 Jeff Bezos: So they opened it up to like people, hey, if we're, we're doing family movies.

00:56:23.680 --> 00:56:28.640
 Jeff Bezos: Uh, if you want to jump on on Netflix, do the watch party thing, come in.

00:56:28.640 --> 00:56:30.240
 Jeff Bezos: He had 20 families sign up

00:56:31.200 --> 00:56:33.200
 Jeff Bezos: to watch movies together.

00:56:33.200 --> 00:56:34.800
 Jeff Bezos: And so they're building relationships.

00:56:34.800 --> 00:56:35.840
 Jeff Bezos: They're talking.

00:56:35.840 --> 00:56:37.040
 Jeff Bezos: Some of them might be Christian.

00:56:37.040 --> 00:56:37.920
 Jeff Bezos: Some of them might not be.

00:56:37.920 --> 00:56:38.640
 Jeff Bezos: It doesn't matter.

00:56:38.640 --> 00:56:40.320
 Jeff Bezos: They're building relationships.

00:56:41.120 --> 00:56:43.280
 Jeff Bezos: And then when it's time to actually like,

00:56:43.280 --> 00:56:44.000
 Jeff Bezos: You know, one of the weeks.

00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:45.840
 Jeff Bezos: Hey, maybe we're not going to show a movie this week.

00:56:45.840 --> 00:56:49.200
 Jeff Bezos: Maybe we'll jump on zoom and talk about what God's doing in our lives.

00:56:49.200 --> 00:56:50.400
 Jeff Bezos: And some of them may have stories.

00:56:50.400 --> 00:56:52.480
 Jeff Bezos: Some of them may not, but it's an opportunity

00:56:52.480 --> 00:56:55.280
 Jeff Bezos: to relationally invest in people to get to that point.

00:56:55.840 --> 00:56:57.920
 Jeff Bezos: And it's like, if Netflix doesn't exist,

00:56:57.920 --> 00:57:01.680
 Jeff Bezos: try to get 20 people in a room like that to build relationships.

00:57:01.680 --> 00:57:02.880
 Jeff Bezos: You really, you really can't.

00:57:03.680 --> 00:57:04.640
 Jeff Bezos: 40, 60.

00:57:04.640 --> 00:57:08.160
 Jeff Bezos: Like there's no limit on that unless Netflix has got limitations.

00:57:08.160 --> 00:57:09.040
 Jeff Bezos: I don't know.

00:57:09.040 --> 00:57:12.480
 Jeff Bezos: But at the end of the day, like you're utilizing technology

00:57:12.480 --> 00:57:15.840
 Jeff Bezos: Not to compete with the weekend service, but to compliment it

00:57:15.840 --> 00:57:18.320
 Jeff Bezos: To do something that only the technology can do.

00:57:18.320 --> 00:57:21.280
 Jeff Bezos: And to me, this is where, and we're not even as a church.

00:57:21.280 --> 00:57:24.400
 Jeff Bezos: We're not even utilizing technology in this way yet.

00:57:24.400 --> 00:57:25.440
 Jeff Bezos: We haven't figured it out.

00:57:25.440 --> 00:57:29.360
 Jeff Bezos: We're so afraid of it because it's competing with the one hour on Sunday

00:57:29.360 --> 00:57:33.280
 Jeff Bezos: That we don't want to actually take advantage of the power to relational connect with it.

00:57:33.280 --> 00:57:39.200
 Jeff Bezos: It's incredible, too, when you think about, and I love this fidget where you can interact,

00:57:39.200 --> 00:57:44.080
 Jeff Bezos: But you think about the complexity and one of the things transformation is dealing with

00:57:44.080 --> 00:57:46.320
 Jeff Bezos: is having a 4,000 seat auditorium.

00:57:46.320 --> 00:57:49.760
 Jeff Bezos: Getting people in and out of a physical service is really complicated.

00:57:49.760 --> 00:57:55.920
 Jeff Bezos: And the funny thing, and Robert Emmett used to always say this with onlinechurch.com,

00:57:55.920 --> 00:57:58.400
 Jeff Bezos: Is he's like, look, I don't, we don't have security guards.

00:57:58.400 --> 00:58:01.280
 Jeff Bezos: We don't, we kind of have digital security guards that ban people.

00:58:01.280 --> 00:58:05.200
 Jeff Bezos: But it's not so complex when we don't run out of parking.

00:58:05.200 --> 00:58:08.400
 Jeff Bezos: We don't have to figure out how we get 30 minutes to people leave a service

00:58:08.400 --> 00:58:09.680
 Jeff Bezos: and then new people to come in.

00:58:09.680 --> 00:58:13.120
 Jeff Bezos: And we don't care if people double dip on the online services like we do

00:58:13.120 --> 00:58:14.240
 Jeff Bezos: in the physical services.

00:58:14.240 --> 00:58:18.560
 Jeff Bezos: And there's just so much opportunity.

00:58:18.560 --> 00:58:20.880
 Jeff Bezos: And I think, you know, I get excited too.

00:58:20.880 --> 00:58:22.560
 Jeff Bezos: There is not a locked in model.

00:58:24.160 --> 00:58:27.840
 Jeff Bezos: One of the visions I really have for churches that I don't see happening much

00:58:27.840 --> 00:58:30.160
 Jeff Bezos: yet is house churches coming out of it.

00:58:30.160 --> 00:58:32.240
 Jeff Bezos: And I think that's where church home was going in a lot of ways.

00:58:32.240 --> 00:58:36.160
 Jeff Bezos: But we kind of these micro gatherings that start of you have a cluster in Ohio,

00:58:36.160 --> 00:58:37.200
 Jeff Bezos: and you have a cluster in

00:58:38.160 --> 00:58:41.200
 Jeff Bezos: Pakistan, you know, and you have a cluster in Sydney,

00:58:41.200 --> 00:58:44.800
 Jeff Bezos: and you have a cluster, you know, 50 miles away from your church building

00:58:44.800 --> 00:58:48.160
 Jeff Bezos: where people just don't want to drive, but they want to gather or people that

00:58:48.160 --> 00:58:51.280
 Jeff Bezos: don't want to go into a big auditorium anymore because of COVID.

00:58:51.280 --> 00:58:56.160
 Jeff Bezos: And they'd rather just be in a living room and watch church on a television

00:58:56.160 --> 00:59:00.800
 Jeff Bezos: and then eat lunch together and be in like a different kind of community.

00:59:00.800 --> 00:59:03.280
 Jeff Bezos: Yet they want it from a teaching standpoint.

00:59:03.280 --> 00:59:06.960
 Jeff Bezos: And I still I believe the pulpit drives the church and I think online church

00:59:06.960 --> 00:59:11.120
 Jeff Bezos: allows that pastor to be able to speak into those homes.

00:59:11.120 --> 00:59:15.200
 Jeff Bezos: And I think in many ways we, you know, I think even back to the rabbinical days

00:59:15.200 --> 00:59:19.120
 Jeff Bezos: of you would choose a rabbi to follow, you know, and I think we still do that.

00:59:19.120 --> 00:59:24.720
 Jeff Bezos: We choose a pastor of this is the person that I want to speak into my life spiritually

00:59:24.720 --> 00:59:28.720
 Jeff Bezos: and I want to follow from a teaching standpoint as the primary person speaking in my life

00:59:28.720 --> 00:59:35.760
 Jeff Bezos: spiritually and now that's no longer limited by geography and you as a pastor are no longer limited by geography

00:59:35.760 --> 00:59:42.320
 Jeff Bezos: and me as an individual and no longer limited by geography of who who I choose to speak into my life spiritually.

00:59:42.320 --> 00:59:50.720
 Jeff Bezos: And I, these are the new opportunities that that are not a limitation to church or a distraction from church, but are only an enhancement.

00:59:50.720 --> 00:59:57.920
 Jeff Bezos: And it doesn't mean you have to reach the world. It does mean you can reach the people within 20 miles even even more.

00:59:57.920 --> 01:00:03.520
 Jeff Bezos: than you could before and be even more connected. There's man, there's just so many things I love fidgetal.

01:00:03.520 --> 01:00:08.720
 Jeff Bezos: I tried to go buy fidgetal.church and I saw you already bought fidgetal.church, so you beat me.

01:00:08.720 --> 01:00:10.960
 Jeff Bezos: Don't buy my domain. I'm already there.

01:00:10.960 --> 01:00:11.920
 Jeff Bezos: That's awesome.

01:00:11.920 --> 01:00:14.480
 Jeff Bezos: I was gonna sell it back to you. I was just looking for an upsell.

01:00:14.480 --> 01:00:23.200
 Jeff Bezos: The funny thing was, I bought that. It's so funny. I bought that like three months, like 2019.

01:00:23.200 --> 01:00:23.840
 Jeff Bezos: Yeah.

01:00:23.840 --> 01:00:27.120
 Jeff Bezos: Because I'm like you. I just, I buy domains randomly, come back around, whatever.

01:00:27.120 --> 01:00:32.720
 Jeff Bezos: And so 2019 I bought that domain and I'm talking with Stadia, you know, February, March.

01:00:32.720 --> 01:00:36.960
 Jeff Bezos: March, it was in this COVID season 2020. We're talking about fidgetal and working through it's like, hey, let's,

01:00:36.960 --> 01:00:42.560
 Jeff Bezos: let's push all in on this term. And I went to buy fidgetal.church, not remembering I already bought it.

01:00:43.120 --> 01:00:50.720
 Jeff Bezos: And so I went to buy it and go daddy and it came back and said already bought. And I'm like, well, crap, who's smart enough to actually be planning ahead.

01:00:50.720 --> 01:00:55.440
 Jeff Bezos: And so I go into who is looking up was like, oh, I bought it four months ago and didn't even remember.

01:00:55.440 --> 01:00:56.320
 Jeff Bezos: You forgot that you bought it.

01:00:56.320 --> 01:00:57.600
 Jeff Bezos: I forgot I even bought it.

01:00:57.600 --> 01:01:00.720
 Jeff Bezos: So that's, welcome to, welcome to my COVID life.

01:01:00.720 --> 01:01:04.720
 Jeff Bezos: Are you, are you willing to admit how many domains that you, that you have in your,

01:01:04.720 --> 01:01:07.520
 Jeff Bezos: Are you a GoDaddy guy? Who do you, what do you use your domains?

01:01:07.520 --> 01:01:11.760
 Jeff Bezos: Yeah. So I'm a GoDaddy guy. I'm, I'm three figures. I'm not four figures.

01:01:11.760 --> 01:01:13.280
 Jeff Bezos: You're in the three figures though.

01:01:13.280 --> 01:01:18.880
 Jeff Bezos: I am, I am three figures. I keep it in context. Honestly, I like my, my, my industry,

01:01:18.880 --> 01:01:23.840
 bad word, my, my zone, my, the area of, of influences church. So I don't, I don't really

01:01:23.840 --> 01:01:26.160
 even let myself go outside of that.

01:01:26.160 --> 01:01:26.800
 Jeff Bezos: Yeah.

01:01:26.800 --> 01:01:29.040
 Jeff Bezos: You're in the three figures.

01:01:29.040 --> 01:01:33.440
 Jeff Bezos: Yeah, I am. Lots of, lots of buzzwords, lots of keywords,

01:01:33.440 --> 01:01:37.280
 Jeff Bezos: Lots of, of things coming up. I've a couple of clients I do stuff for,

01:01:37.280 --> 01:01:41.840
 but you know, that's, that's, it's on a minimal. I don't want to respond. My, my worst fear is I

01:01:41.840 --> 01:01:47.440
 forget to renew a domain for a client that that's like there. And so like, I just, I'm as much as

01:01:47.440 --> 01:01:51.360
 possible. Hey, let me set you up with an account. I'll, I'll do the initial purchase for you.

01:01:51.360 --> 01:01:53.440
 Jeff Bezos: So you get the discounts and then I'll just hand it to you.

01:01:53.440 --> 01:01:54.800
 Jeff Bezos: Yeah, that's good. I love it.

01:01:54.800 --> 01:01:59.120
 Jeff Bezos: Anyway, that's, this is, this is, it's been a, it's a great conversation, man. I love,

01:01:59.120 --> 01:02:04.160
 Jeff Bezos: I love, uh, you, we got together. I was actually, I was reminded of this and we're

01:02:04.160 --> 01:02:07.520
 going to, we're going to talk about this later because I've, I'm actually, we're doing a podcast

01:02:07.520 --> 01:02:13.680
 with Greg Atkinson. Yeah. Um, uh, later this afternoon side of Starbucks, maybe three,

01:02:13.680 --> 01:02:19.440
 Jeff Bezos: four years ago. Um, yeah, Disneyland, uh, with, with Nils, Jay Cranda, Ray was there

01:02:19.440 --> 01:02:27.280
 and, uh, and Greg Atkinson, um, just talking crazy. And, uh, to, to see three, four years later,

01:02:27.280 --> 01:02:33.840
 whatever the math was, um, how crazy has become a reality and how churches are, are, are now wrestling

01:02:33.840 --> 01:02:40.560
 with this in, in real time, trying to figure out how to adjust. Um, man, thanks for, thanks for what

01:02:40.560 --> 01:02:44.240
 you're doing. One of the questions, we do want to bring you back. Um, one of the questions that,

01:02:44.240 --> 01:02:49.760
 that I wanted to ask even was, man, you were one of the like pioneers in this. And so like 10,

01:02:49.760 --> 01:02:56.320
 20 years ago, did you just real briefly, did you see this coming or was it, was it, was,

01:02:56.320 --> 01:03:01.120
 was it a, like, did you realize that the church would be in the season where this would become a

01:03:01.120 --> 01:03:06.000
 reality or were you pushing vision, just hoping to get close to it?

01:03:06.000 --> 01:03:10.960
 Greg Atkinson: I, and, and I'm going to give you a longer answer, uh, because I, I think it's,

01:03:10.960 --> 01:03:17.680
 I think it, uh, my, my story, I think my, might even inspire some, someone else of I'm, I'm an

01:03:17.680 --> 01:03:24.240
 accidental in all of this. I'm not a technology guy. I, um, when I, in 1999, I was a youth pastor,

01:03:24.240 --> 01:03:29.280
 my first youth ministry gig, I was introduced to AOL instant messenger. And that's where my online

01:03:29.280 --> 01:03:34.560
 ministry began. That was my first day of youth ministry. A seventh grade girl introduced me

01:03:34.560 --> 01:03:39.680
 to AOL instant messenger. And so from my first day of ministry, all I knew was digital and physical

01:03:39.680 --> 01:03:45.680
 and, and my most successful ministry came out of digital relationships that I then merged into

01:03:46.560 --> 01:03:51.360
 physical relationships. And, and that just went into my space. And then that went into Facebook.

01:03:51.360 --> 01:03:56.160
 And I, and then, you know, about 12 years ago, I was doing, leading a college service and we had about

01:03:56.160 --> 01:04:01.120
 75 college students who gathered and somebody introduced me to this platform called Mogulus,

01:04:01.120 --> 01:04:05.840
 where you can plug in your handy cam to your computer. And now it's live stream.com, which

01:04:05.840 --> 01:04:12.000
 is now owned by Vimeo. Uh, but it, it was like, I can do this and I can live stream this service

01:04:12.000 --> 01:04:18.400
 anywhere. We literally had a thousand people that night, watch our service on Mogulus because we,

01:04:18.400 --> 01:04:22.240
 somebody told me to plug in a camera and I was willing to try it. And we told everybody,

01:04:22.240 --> 01:04:26.720
 update your Facebook and your MySpace with this link. And then we started reaching the world.

01:04:26.720 --> 01:04:32.240
 And then, so, so I would just, I was willing to try things. And when I would see something,

01:04:32.240 --> 01:04:36.400
 I'd be like, oh, I'm going to lean into this. And then I got in the newspaper in San Antonio,

01:04:36.400 --> 01:04:40.400
 which is where Robert Emmett heard about me. And Robert Emmett took me to lunch and he's like,

01:04:41.040 --> 01:04:44.880
 do you think, I mean, we've planted 10 churches and I'm just tired of the headache of planting new

01:04:44.880 --> 01:04:49.200
 churches. Do you think we could do a church on the internet? And I said, I'd love to try to figure it out.

01:04:49.200 --> 01:04:57.280
 Um, so yeah, so I, I would say he had a vision. I, I was fascinated by life church. Um, and we literally

01:04:57.280 --> 01:05:00.400
 just figured out how to do church. Like, well, what about small groups? Well, what about

01:05:00.960 --> 01:05:06.080
 prayer? What about baptism? What about, and, and we just figured it out one step at a time. So I would

01:05:06.080 --> 01:05:12.720
 say I, I didn't have a vision for this. I had a willingness to try new things and, uh, and God gave me

01:05:12.720 --> 01:05:18.880
 vision along the way and God gave Robert Emmett vision as our lead pastor. And, and I helped,

01:05:18.880 --> 01:05:24.240
 I helped him accomplish his vision and me. And now as a consultant, that's what I do. I choose, uh,

01:05:24.240 --> 01:05:30.000
 clients who, who have a vision I want to align to and help them create structure to, to accomplish

01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:35.600
 their vision. Um, yeah, so that, so that's my journey into this, but I didn't have a clear vision

01:05:35.600 --> 01:05:40.080
 and, and I don't have a clear vision for the future, but I want to continue to be a part of

01:05:40.880 --> 01:05:46.080
 willing to try new things to see. And, and I think I love Craig Grishow's line, anything,

01:05:46.080 --> 01:05:50.880
 anything short of sin to accomplish the gospel or further the gospel, you know, I don't know exactly

01:05:50.880 --> 01:05:56.720
 the thing, but anything. And, and for me, it has, it has been the fruits have been when I've leaned into

01:05:56.720 --> 01:06:03.600
 technology innovation. That was awesome. Thank you for that. Um, man, what well said. I love the fact

01:06:03.600 --> 01:06:09.040
 that you use the word AOL in my space in a conversation. Like I was, I was Nils BYX, by the way.

01:06:10.400 --> 01:06:18.000
 BYX. Nils BYX was my AOL. I am name. Brothers under Christ. Yep. Brothers under Christ. Very good.

01:06:18.000 --> 01:06:24.960
 I'm with you. So yeah. Wow. That's a throwback. Yeah. Uh, what school you were in Texas?

01:06:24.960 --> 01:06:29.440
 Yeah. I was at, uh, it was Southwest Texas, Texas state university. I think I've got my shirt on.

01:06:29.440 --> 01:06:34.640
 Yes. Okay. All right. Well done. Okay. Yeah. So I was, I was brothers under Christ at, at TCU.

01:06:36.080 --> 01:06:39.680
 What year did you graduate? Listen, I'm going to cut all this out. So let's, or maybe I'll leave it in.

01:06:39.680 --> 01:06:44.240
 I don't know, but what, what year did you graduate? 2002. 2002. Okay. I was 99. All right.

01:06:44.240 --> 01:06:48.720
 Very cool. I didn't realize that. I mean, I can do like the whole early days of bucks.

01:06:48.720 --> 01:06:52.320
 Oh my gosh. I can't, in, in one spirit, in one voice, we sing our,

01:06:53.200 --> 01:06:57.280
 Oh, I, it's been 20 years since I've tried to remember that we see each other physically.

01:06:57.280 --> 01:07:02.160
 Very good. I'll definitely get you in and raise like these bunch of old guys are freaky right now.

01:07:02.160 --> 01:07:05.600
 So you guys are part of like an Elks club or like a Stonehenge, you know,

01:07:05.600 --> 01:07:09.440
 the group that I don't know about, man. Some kind of good.

01:07:09.440 --> 01:07:17.920
 I love it. So evidently, if you're, if you're, if you're a boxer, you are a shaved head and have a goatee.

01:07:17.920 --> 01:07:21.680
 Cause evidently that's, that's what we're establishing here in this podcast.

01:07:21.680 --> 01:07:24.560
 Well, and it's built into your AOL screen name. It's built in.

01:07:25.360 --> 01:07:32.240
 It had to be. I almost got a bucks tattoo. I I'm kind of glad I didn't. Uh, but I almost went that far.

01:07:32.400 --> 01:07:38.160
 Yeah. I w I was not that radical. Well done. Um, awesome. Hey Ray, I don't know how you're

01:07:38.160 --> 01:07:41.760
 going to make sense of this, but as, as we're landing the plane, any closing thoughts?

01:07:41.760 --> 01:07:45.760
 No, I'm so glad Jeff, you got to throw a pipe organ in the background of when Mills was preaching

01:07:45.760 --> 01:07:50.960
 there. Cause I was about to get rolling with him and for so long we prayed for acts too, right?

01:07:50.960 --> 01:07:54.960
 Like I heard churches over and over again, praying for revival and talking about, man,

01:07:54.960 --> 01:08:02.000
 we want to see a revival happen and just maybe, just maybe what if we're living in it now?

01:08:02.000 --> 01:08:05.760
 Like, would we actually open our eyes to like, look at the fields, like Jesus said and say,

01:08:05.760 --> 01:08:09.760
 Hey man, the harvest is here and it's not in a way that we expected.

01:08:09.760 --> 01:08:14.640
 Maybe a lot of it's going to come digitally. And maybe if we would embrace like what Neil

01:08:14.640 --> 01:08:19.520
 said so eloquently, and I love this, the vision that God has for us instead of trying to copy

01:08:19.520 --> 01:08:24.560
 somebody else. Like what if Paul had the ability to say, Hey Jesus, I can't physically get to Macedonia,

01:08:24.560 --> 01:08:29.200
 but you gave me this camera and you gave me this computer and every other way I keep coming up to

01:08:29.200 --> 01:08:34.560
 walls. But through this way I can get into that 1040 window. I can preach the gospel. I can get it to

01:08:34.560 --> 01:08:39.520
 people. There's a relevant method here. If we would just embrace this time for what it is,

01:08:40.480 --> 01:08:43.840
 sorrows, heartaches, but also the positive things that come with it.

01:08:44.640 --> 01:08:46.480
 There's so much beauty that could come from this man.

01:08:47.520 --> 01:08:52.320
 Well said. Well said. Yeah. And we'll have to get the sound effect of the pipe organ in here. That's

01:08:52.320 --> 01:08:57.120
 a good idea. Um, you're totally listening to the pipe organ right now. Cause I'm going on faith

01:08:57.680 --> 01:09:02.560
 that I'm going to work it in right about at this point. Okay. Nils. Um, thank you, Ray. Nils,

01:09:02.560 --> 01:09:04.720
 it's landing the plane. Any, any closing thoughts on your side?

01:09:04.720 --> 01:09:10.160
 I just want to say, I love you guys. I, I love the relationship we've had through the years online

01:09:10.160 --> 01:09:16.160
 and, uh, and, and the work you're doing right now, uh, in leading this conversation. Um, it's,

01:09:16.160 --> 01:09:20.720
 it's special and it's important and it's critical. And I appreciate you letting me be a part of the

01:09:20.720 --> 01:09:26.800
 conversation. So the podcast I wanted to have was, man, the church needs to figure out how to utilize

01:09:26.800 --> 01:09:32.720
 long form audio better because we want to hear something other than a sermon. So, and this is

01:09:32.720 --> 01:09:38.800
 according to Gary V 2020 is the year of long form audio. So church, let's get a clue and figure out

01:09:38.800 --> 01:09:44.320
 how to create long form audio. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. We did not have, uh, instead, uh,

01:09:44.320 --> 01:09:49.840
 we dove into this, uh, innovative entrepreneurial church model, which, or just what a church would

01:09:49.840 --> 01:09:54.720
 look like if it was innovative and entrepreneurial. So thank you for this conversation. We'll have to

01:09:54.720 --> 01:09:59.680
 bring you back another time and actually get into the audio piece because I would love your angle on

01:09:59.680 --> 01:10:05.440
 that. And so we'll get there for Ray, uh, for nails. This is Jeff with the church digital. Once again,

01:10:05.440 --> 01:10:08.560
 thanks for jumping on the podcast and we'll see you next time here on the show. Y'all have a good day.