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 Episode 72 of the Church Digital Podcast, powered, once again, we're powered by Stadia Church Planting.

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 So we've talked briefly, especially in episode 71, about how we had Nils Smith,

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 who was kind of instrumental in my life, if for no other reason than I had coffee with the guy.

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 There was one event, one coffee, it was out in Disneyland, California, opposite coast from me,

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 was at a conference, and I was speaking with Nils Smith at a coffee house.

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 Jay Cranda was there, Radiarmus co-host with the Church Digital.

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 And the fifth guy who was there, including myself, the fifth guy was Greg Atkinson.

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 Now, Greg Atkinson is one of the top guest services consultants right now in the country

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 and does a phenomenal job helping churches do their guest services better.

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 But in addition to that, he really was one of these pioneer guys,

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 one of these guys that started doing Church Online before Church Online was anything.

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 And so it was a fascinating conversation at this coffee house,

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 just exploring the past, the present, and the future, the celebrations, the stories, the problems, the issues.

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 How are we going to resolve this? How do you fix this? What's been your experience?

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 And really, it was that conversation that inspired the Church Digital Podcast,

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 but even the Church Digital in general, because I realized that churches needed this level of conversation,

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 because I needed that level of conversation.

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 And when I left that conversation and started having conversations with other churches,

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 they got excited about it too, which led to the Church Digital,

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 led to this company, this organization coming around to help churches like yours figure out how to do Church Online.

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 So inadvertently, Greg Atkinson with Nilsmith and Jake Grand and all these guys helped me start this company,

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 or at least inspired me to start this company.

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 And Ray's been helping along the way, of course, because that's what Ray does.

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 Ray's awesome.

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 So let me actually get to this podcast episode here.

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 You got Greg Atkinson, who is this phenomenal consultant who understands physical church guest services

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 better than almost anybody in the country.

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 It's what he does literally for a living.

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 His job is to help churches figure out how to do guest services,

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 how to do services in their building effectively and efficiently.

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 He understands this.

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 But he's also a guy who helped create Church Online,

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 so he understands this online component as well.

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 So if there's anybody who really understands the merger of physical and digital,

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 of physical church and Church Online together into one, honestly, it's him.

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 And that's really the heart of this conversation,

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 not only kind of analyzing and talking through where the church is in general in this COVID season,

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 how we're either going to improve or how we're going to lose ground as a result of this,

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 the churches that are going to learn something from this season and the churches that are going to not learn anything in this COVID season.

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 But we also talk about how now that the toothpaste is out of the tube,

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 there's really no way to get it back in.

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 And as churches that are out there, it's not digital only.

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 It's not Church Online only.

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 There are churches that will be digital only.

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 But as a general rule, let's not stay experimental with this Church Online only aspect.

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 It's not physical only either.

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 It's a merger of the two.

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 It's getting the two churches back together,

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 figuring out how physical and digital can complement each other,

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 creating this digital church model that we've talked so much about.

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 So, Church, that's the episode.

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 We're bringing in Greg Atkinson,

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 consultant, church online guru from way back in the day.

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 We're bringing in Ray DeArmis, once again, co-host,

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 digital pastor over at Christ Fellowship Miami,

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 and myself, Jeff, with the Church Digital.

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 In a conversation that I'm calling Physical Church, Church Online,

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 and Why You Can Never Put the Toothpaste Back in the Tube.

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 Here you all go.

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 I think that revival will happen in church as a result of this season,

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 in some places.

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 I think that God doesn't break us only to put us back together the way that it was before.

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 I don't think there's anywhere in Scripture where we see that God spiritually breaks something

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 and then reassembles it back up in the mirror image.

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 God always changes things for His glory and His benefit in that season.

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 And I'm not saying that digital is a silver bullet,

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 but I think that we're learning the value of relationship.

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 I think we're learning the value of connecting in ways that maybe we didn't really know and understand before.

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 Maybe we forgot.

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 I was going to say, you know, you and I have been talking for a while,

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 but I was just so thrilled to see when Stadia brought you on with such a kind of trailblazing mentality.

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 Nobody else had ever done anything like that.

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 And not knowing that we'd be coming up on coronavirus, it just shows how ahead of the game they were.

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 You all were to be able to be able to have a position created like that.

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 I think it's wonderful.

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 As a result of that, I mean, part of the experiment pre-COVID was,

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 hey, Jeff, we want you to create a research development project three years of how a church can plant digital churches,

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 digital-only expressions of church.

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 And Stadia was excited about it.

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 When this whole COVID thing happened, we pivoted it a little bit where it's now,

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 it's, okay, let's help churches figure out how to be figital.

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 But part of being figital is helping them understand how to plant churches digitally, how to multiply.

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 We want to help churches figure out how to thrive, grow, and multiply in physical space as well as in digital space.

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 And this fascinating thing happened.

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 We were expecting 50 churches.

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 At this point, you know, one of my bosses, one of the guys that are above me on the pay grade,

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 says to me, hey, Jeff, I think it's going to be closer to 150.

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 Like, there's been a lot of excitement talking about this stuff.

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 Because I think some churches, maybe not all churches, but a lot of churches are hungry in this season.

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 And they're learning something now that they realize is going to help them tomorrow.

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 And I think that's the win of COVID.

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 Maybe it's not 100%, because I don't think you ever get 100% of anybody anymore.

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 But I do think there's going to be enough churches coming out of this.

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 And the stories that are going to be told and lessons going to be learned in this next season to help us when the next ice storm comes,

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 when we get the next ice age coming through, whether that's AI or whether that's COVID 2.0, whatever.

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 I was just watching the press conference yesterday.

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 And it's the fall when coronavirus comes back.

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 Yeah.

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 It's 18 months from a vaccine.

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 And in the fall and winter, we're going to have coronavirus and flu both going at the same time.

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 And there was the doctor with Trump was saying that it's going to be a lot more complicated and difficult.

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 So we'll be back in the same boat of guidelines and can't gather together.

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 And so if you abandon online church, as soon as restrictions get lifted, which I consider temporarily,

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 and then fall comes around and comes back full force, and then you go back to, okay, now let's get everybody back online.

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 I mean, you just got to, like we were saying earlier today, you got to keep with the online campus.

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 It needs to always be kind of a both-hand and staff for it.

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 Yeah.

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 You know, Greg, I'm kind of the optimist on this side.

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 Like I just don't see how churches could abandon it.

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 You know what I'm saying?

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 Especially since I feel like, you know, every industry goes through its own digital disruption, right?

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 Like we've seen this over time.

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 Brady Shearer just tweeted out a graph from Barna as far as like how church attendance was pre-2010.

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 And he says, he's like, hey, so look what happened here.

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 Churches went online, and kapow, you see like a big change.

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 And even then, kind of like what we were citing earlier when we recorded with Nils, if you're conscientious about stewardship,

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 like if you care about reaching more people for less dollars and leveraging a lot of those daughters to serve orphans and widows

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 and to try and tackle some of the hard-fought problems of sin that we've seen in this world,

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 where even, you know, churches can get involved in telemedicine and get involved in some of these different initiatives,

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 then, man, I just don't see how you would want to shun digital avenues for the sake of the Great Commission.

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 I just, to me, that's, you know, we're looking at, you know, Jesus talked about the pearl of the greatest price.

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 Like a guy finds a pearl in a field, you know, and sells everything he has, you know,

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 to go ahead and buy the field to go after it.

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 And I feel like we're in the midst of that.

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 I just can't see how you would want to go another direction.

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 And I was saying to Jeff right before you popped on, I think some of this that has caused people to drag for so long

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 is theological in essence.

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 You know, we've been touting and proclaiming online church for years and years and years,

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 but there's just this thought of, unless they physically walk through our doors, we can't disciple them.

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 Whereas, you know, Myron is launching a campus in Ghana.

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 He's not going to physically sit down with something.

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 And Myron's one of the biggest disciple makers I know.

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 I mean, we brought him here to my church.

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 I've been to his church.

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 I brought him here to invest over a week at my church.

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 And he's all about making disciples.

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 He has a 7 a.m. discipleship group with men in his church on Monday, Saturdays,

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 and is just cranking out disciples.

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 But he also realizes the great potential you have when you go online and can get somewhere you can't physically travel to.

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 And so it grows you exponentially.

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 But I see it kind of like you said, fidgetal.

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 Both and.

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 I want us to live in both realities where, you know, the pandemic's not going to happen forever.

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 There eventually will be a vaccine and things will go back to semi-normal until the next thing comes around.

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 But we should still have digital and physical things going on in every expression of the local church.

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 For the typical brick and mortar church that meets, whether they meet in a school or a traditional church building,

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 they should still have broadcasting capabilities and getting it out there to the nations.

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 Because it just seems like you said it's good stewardship.

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 It's a better use of ministry dollars.

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 You can reach more people.

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 It's an exciting time to be alive.

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 Well, you know, Jim Tomberlin, one of our mutual friends, and actually I told this stat to Nils,

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 like what you guys were doing back in, you know, 2008, 2007, 2005, like that was bleeding edge back then.

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 And as we've progressed, you know, 10 years into the future, Jim uses the language of it's cutting edge and then it's cool and then it's commonplace.

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 And he tracks it in context of multi-site where, you know, 95 it was, or, you know, even the year 2000, multi-site was cutting edge.

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 2010 it was cool.

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 All the cool churches were on it, but it still was kind of like this weird thing.

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 Well, in 2020, multi-site is commonplace.

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 Everybody's doing it, or at least everybody's accepting it, or at least everybody's heard of it and doesn't, like, freak out because of some theological thing if you're staring at a video screen.

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 If you're talking about church online, you know, I think what you guys were doing, I call you guys, you're all like the OGs.

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 You've been doing this forever.

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 Even Grand is like eight or ten years into church online at this point.

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 You guys set the standard.

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 It was cutting edge back then, Life.Church, the stuff that you guys were doing.

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 Now what's happening today, it's not commonplace.

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 It's still cool.

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 Churches are pre-COVID were adapting to it as they saw fit, but it was really the cool churches that were not accepted.

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 And even if we're just talking, the real question is, are we talking broadcasting services, or are we talking making disciples?

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 Because there's a difference even in that.

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 What God did through this health crisis, this pandemic, is in between cool and commonplace, inserted this other C, crucial.

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 Do you want to keep meeting?

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 Do you want to keep existing?

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 Do you want to keep a body together?

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 Then you better get on board.

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 It's crucial that you become a part of this movement.

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 And then hopefully down the road, it will be commonplace.

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 But for these last six weeks when we couldn't meet in person, this is your option.

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 This is it if you want to get together.

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 Yeah, God kind of kicked it into gear.

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 So COVID, I mean, you're right.

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 There's a gasoline on a flame that caused an explosion.

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 And we fast-tracked through what should have been 10 years relatively quickly.

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 I mean, what's funny, I feel like I'm having the same conversation.

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 Because I literally just said this with Nils like a couple hours ago.

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 It'll be a separate podcast episode.

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 You know, AI, artificial intelligence, we had all this stuff coming.

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 There's going to be other major issues coming up.

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 Other ice ages that will happen as a result of this.

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 And so it's so important to learn lessons in this COVID season that's going to help us for the next COVID season.

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 And if it's not COVID, it's going to be something else.

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 Whether it's, you know, a hurricane, a tornado, an earthquake, the great zombie attack that we're all fearing today.

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 I'm kidding.

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 Maybe not.

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 Well, maybe.

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 I'm not sure.

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 But at the end of the day, there's always at this point, you can't.

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 Seminary student, I spoke at Liberty yesterday.

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 And a seminary student asked a question.

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 I kind of laughed.

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 They said, is there any chance we can squeeze the toothpaste back in the tube?

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 Is there any hope?

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 And I was literally, she, the student was literally asking, I'm a physical student.

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 She's like a physical church.

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 Do I need to abandon my studies and go to more of an online mentality?

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 And I was like, okay, well.

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 We're all asking that.

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 Yeah.

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 And it's like, no, you can't.

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 You can't put the toothpaste back.

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 Pre-COVID, I think you could ignore it.

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 Stick your head in the sand.

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 Do an ostrich thing.

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 But this whole thing of where we are today, there's no going back to normal.

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 But I don't think it's all digital, at least today in 2020.

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 I don't think the digital-only churches that Stadia is working on, the stuff that Myron's working on, there's opportunities in digital.

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 But there's more to church, I think, than that, at least in 2020.

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 The average person, I think, is going to connect in a physical space.

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 But more and more, that pendulum is swinging more towards digital.

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 2023, 2022, 2025.

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 By 2029, if this AI thing really hits us then, I think culture is going to look completely different.

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 I think we'll shift four or five times before we even get to that point, at the rate we're going now.

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 Well, when you think about the Apostle Paul saying, I have to come all things to all people so that I might win some.

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 If it took something like this for God to shake his church into letting us see that technology is agnostic, it's neutral, it's not bad.

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 Like we've been saying for years to churches, and for me as a consultant, please set up online giving.

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 Please set up online giving.

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 Please set up online giving.

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 And then, I mean, just for, I've been consulting now for 15 years, since 2005, and to now see churches scrambling of what do we do?

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 How do we get people?

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 And they're setting up mailboxes outside the church for people to drive by and drop off their checks in a mailbox outside the church.

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 And I'm like, just set up online giving.

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 Technology is not bad.

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 It's not bad.

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 It could be used for good.

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 And there's nothing wrong with streaming your services online.

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 With doing, I'm in a, well, I'm actually in two online small groups at my church and another local church.

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 Two different churches that I have relationships with here locally, but that we do Zoom small group.

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 But being able to use these tools for good is something that we just kind of got a shot in the arm.

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 We kind of got our butt kicked of get out there, get out of the boat, get out of the boat, get out of the boat.

00:16:59.640 --> 00:17:12.280
 But, you know, we've been preaching it for years, but it took something drastic to have that wake-up call for the church.

00:17:12.420 --> 00:17:13.420
 Now, it breaks my heart.

00:17:13.480 --> 00:17:26.200
 If you say there's a LifeWay study, and LifeWay is big on research that shows that 61% of churches are online, so 39% have still not got online, that just breaks my heart.

00:17:26.200 --> 00:17:40.420
 I just, I hate hearing that, because then you think, well, what will it take, you know, what would it take to get you to embrace technology and to break, you know, so I went to Liberty for seminary in the 90s.

00:17:40.420 --> 00:17:54.660
 And obviously, a lot has changed since the 90s, 1998, 99, a lot has changed since my days of seminary and Liberty, and now, nowadays, but no, you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

00:17:54.660 --> 00:18:14.580
 This, this is out there, and, you know, I was in our, earlier, you and I recorded a webinar, and I was just doing another chat about this in my Weekend Worship and Guest Services Facebook group, and there is, well, is it okay, down the road, restrictions get lifted, people can meet, people start coming back.

00:18:14.940 --> 00:18:21.260
 Somebody wakes up one morning and says, you know what, I think I'm going to make brunch, and I'll just watch online today.

00:18:21.900 --> 00:18:23.140
 I don't feel like going in today.

00:18:23.340 --> 00:18:24.520
 I'm going to stay in my jammies.

00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:29.540
 I've got a little cough, or I'm just, I'm just going to chill at home today.

00:18:29.840 --> 00:18:30.960
 Are we okay with that?

00:18:31.420 --> 00:18:36.140
 I mean, and I love, I love hugging people.

00:18:36.300 --> 00:18:37.680
 I love fist bumping people.

00:18:38.320 --> 00:18:44.460
 I love, obviously, I'm a first impressions guy, so I'm real big on guest services and hospitality and first impressions.

00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:52.480
 I like seeing greeters and people in the parking lot and ushers and all that I've spent my career doing.

00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:59.260
 However, there are some weeks where I wake up and I'm not traveling, and I think, I'm just going to watch online today.

00:19:00.220 --> 00:19:08.100
 And it's not, it's such an amazing time to be alive, because I don't just watch one.

00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:15.600
 I watch like three or four or five churches around the country or around the world, and it's such a cool thing.

00:19:16.060 --> 00:19:21.000
 One of the things that I was going to talk about, you had mentioned sharing some stories,

00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:29.500
 some of the stories that come to mind in my own personal journey is, I, you know, we all love Facebook.

00:19:29.800 --> 00:19:30.540
 We love Facebook.

00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:37.060
 However, I'm a big believer in YouTube, and obviously, second largest search engine in the world.

00:19:37.620 --> 00:19:42.700
 But there is, there is just time after time after time.

00:19:42.700 --> 00:19:47.780
 I have, I have YouTube, I have a Roku, and I have YouTube going through my television.

00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:54.940
 And I start every morning watching worship on YouTube, and it's just a playlist that just comes up,

00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:57.880
 and it just goes from one worship song to another worship song.

00:19:58.080 --> 00:20:02.480
 And I'll sit there, and I'll start my day with a quiet time in worship and reading scripture.

00:20:03.140 --> 00:20:07.200
 But there's a lot of times where YouTube, as you know, suggests stuff.

00:20:07.320 --> 00:20:18.840
 And so somebody's sermon will get suggested, whether it be Judd Wilhite or Stephen Furtick or Matt Chandler or T.D. Jakes, whoever.

00:20:19.020 --> 00:20:20.560
 Somebody's sermon will get suggested.

00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:29.220
 And I cannot tell you the number of times over the years where the right sermon hit me at the right time through the use of technology.

00:20:29.420 --> 00:20:31.900
 It was not something I went searching for.

00:20:32.040 --> 00:20:33.560
 It was not something I knew existed.

00:20:33.780 --> 00:20:36.240
 It was not something I knew had been preached.

00:20:36.680 --> 00:20:43.220
 It was just where I was at in my own relationship with God and my own spiritual journey and things I was struggling with and wrestling with.

00:20:43.580 --> 00:20:50.280
 It was the right sermon at the right time, which we have now through this great World Wide Web and the use of technology.

00:20:50.280 --> 00:21:00.140
 And so I would just be flipping through YouTube, and I would see a sermon title from Jensen Franklin or just some pastor that would come up, or Craig Rochelle.

00:21:00.300 --> 00:21:05.740
 There would be a message where the title just jumped out at me of, yes, you need to watch that.

00:21:06.040 --> 00:21:13.240
 And I would watch it at just the right time, and it just fed my soul, just nourished me in such a way.

00:21:13.240 --> 00:21:28.120
 And so all that to say, how does our expression of church and faith and spiritual growth look going forward as we come out of restrictions and social guidelines?

00:21:28.120 --> 00:21:32.600
 Because there may be weeks where we wake up and say, you know what?

00:21:33.180 --> 00:21:35.220
 I think I do want to watch Craig Rochelle today.

00:21:35.220 --> 00:21:43.080
 I don't live in Oklahoma, but I'm going to watch Craig Rochelle today, and I'm going to watch my church online.

00:21:43.240 --> 00:21:48.860
 But, you know, I've got a cold, and I don't want to spread it.

00:21:48.980 --> 00:22:03.740
 I'm going to stay at home or, you know, but, and then I'm also, you know, I put a quote out when this all started with coronavirus, digital equals daily, which I almost talked about today on the webinar we were recording, but I didn't want to interrupt.

00:22:03.740 --> 00:22:13.120
 But, you know, I look at churches that are offering devotionals daily or a word from a pastor or a word from a staff member.

00:22:13.560 --> 00:22:18.220
 You know, this is a great time to get unseen staff in front of the camera.

00:22:19.260 --> 00:22:30.000
 I was, I was watching the Summit Church this past weekend, J.D. Greer, and I just did a webinar last week with Danny Franks, who's over guest services at the Summit Church.

00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:33.000
 J.D. Greer is the president of Southern Baptist Convention.

00:22:33.300 --> 00:22:36.120
 They're a great church, and they did a really good online service.

00:22:36.120 --> 00:22:51.020
 But one thing they were very intentional about, and Danny Franks had mentioned this in our webinar, was they had various staff members in each campus pastor record a little iPhone video, and then they played that during the service.

00:22:51.020 --> 00:22:59.460
 And so they'd say, hey, I'm Greg at the Rock Hill campus, and I just want to tell you what God's doing in our campus, and he gave a little thing.

00:22:59.560 --> 00:23:07.780
 And then, hey, I'm Susie, I'm a children's minister, and we just are so excited to see you, and you get to hear from all these people that you typically wouldn't get to hear from.

00:23:07.780 --> 00:23:24.080
 Because what I was talking to somebody else about on a different podcast is it, production-wise, technically-wise, breaks up the flow instead of staring at a screen of a talking head of a pastor preaching for 45 minutes.

00:23:24.340 --> 00:23:52.900
 And so when I watched the summit church this past weekend, they had a welcome from a host, they had a welcome from a campus pastor, they had music, and then they had J.D. Greer give part one of his sermon, then they had more music, then they had part two of the sermon, then they had more music, then they had part three of the sermon, then they had more music, and then they closed with a campus pastor.

00:23:52.900 --> 00:24:01.120
 But it was breaking it up, breaking it up, breaking it up, which we can do through editing instead of just sitting there watching a talking head for 60 minutes.

00:24:01.760 --> 00:24:06.160
 Because people would get up and make popcorn or go outside or walk away.

00:24:10.600 --> 00:24:17.980
 As much as there is positive about online church in the digital world, there's also some negatives that people can turn you off in an instant.

00:24:18.180 --> 00:24:22.560
 You're dealing with attention spans, and people can get up and walk out of the room.

00:24:22.740 --> 00:24:26.640
 And so breaking stuff up with little things.

00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:35.100
 And then like Danny Franks was saying, they got rid of their countdown before the service, and they started doing kids' ministry activities.

00:24:35.740 --> 00:24:46.920
 So 15 minutes before the service, they were doing some kids' programming for kids to watch and just experimenting, looking at different stuff to do.

00:24:47.360 --> 00:24:48.340
 That's really encouraging.

00:24:48.620 --> 00:24:51.500
 Greg, you're a master at Next Steps.

00:24:51.760 --> 00:25:02.100
 How have you seen churches adapting and helping people find that next step online, thus changing it from just, hey, a broadcast, to now we're actually helping people spiritually make a move?

00:25:02.100 --> 00:25:08.420
 Yeah, I am super passionate about Next Steps, helping people take their next step in their walk with Christ.

00:25:08.760 --> 00:25:15.720
 But there is something that I have noticed.

00:25:16.060 --> 00:25:26.060
 So for like me personally, if I'm watching YouTube on my television, I'm not sitting with my laptop in my lap where I can fill out an online connection card.

00:25:26.280 --> 00:25:28.340
 So I'm just watching YouTube.

00:25:29.140 --> 00:25:30.340
 And so there's no typing.

00:25:30.500 --> 00:25:31.300
 There's no chatting.

00:25:31.900 --> 00:25:33.120
 Now, it's funny.

00:25:33.220 --> 00:25:41.040
 There are a lot of times where I'm watching one service on YouTube and another service on Facebook on my phone, and I've got them both going on at the same time.

00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:42.720
 Wait, wait, wait, wait.

00:25:42.780 --> 00:25:43.200
 Hold on, hold on.

00:25:43.260 --> 00:25:45.400
 You're breaking the rules of church.

00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:45.940
 I'm breaking the rules.

00:25:45.940 --> 00:25:49.460
 Your butt is literally being counted in two different seats.

00:25:49.700 --> 00:25:51.480
 That's not physically possible.

00:25:51.880 --> 00:25:53.960
 It happens.

00:25:54.160 --> 00:25:54.680
 It happens.

00:25:55.200 --> 00:26:04.940
 But what I found is I did a blog post recently about what church's websites should look like right now, what their homepage should look like.

00:26:05.300 --> 00:26:11.460
 By the way, I also just did a brand new post about 10 questions you should ask your congregation before you reopen.

00:26:11.460 --> 00:26:16.120
 And it's basically talking about bringing back the congregational survey.

00:26:17.080 --> 00:26:20.800
 You know, ask your people, if we were to reopen next week, would you even come?

00:26:21.320 --> 00:26:24.020
 If you have kids, would you even put them in children's ministry?

00:26:24.680 --> 00:26:27.440
 If you're a volunteer, are you even planning to serve again?

00:26:27.700 --> 00:26:31.200
 You know, like, let's poll our people before we go and open the gates.

00:26:31.340 --> 00:26:32.840
 But that's another topic.

00:26:32.840 --> 00:26:51.960
 But as far as next steps, what I have seen work really well is online connection cards that are on the homepage of the website so that maybe somebody comes there throughout the week and they fill out a connection card, whereas they're not going to do it during the music or during the sermon.

00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:54.440
 They're zoned in.

00:26:54.560 --> 00:26:55.900
 They're focused on the preaching.

00:26:56.380 --> 00:26:57.760
 And they're not typing.

00:26:57.940 --> 00:27:00.600
 Like, when I'm worshiping, I'm just worshiping.

00:27:01.020 --> 00:27:02.580
 I don't have a keyboard in my hand.

00:27:02.700 --> 00:27:04.100
 I'm not typing anything.

00:27:04.720 --> 00:27:12.700
 Now, if I'm on my phone, I might do a like or a heart or, you know, I might interact with something if I'm on my phone.

00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:21.980
 But rarely, one of the things I did years ago, and Jeff, I know you probably can relate to this, but having a home office and working from home,

00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:28.120
 I started seeing the healthy boundaries getting blurred.

00:27:28.580 --> 00:27:39.880
 And I started seeing issues where I would take my computer out of my office and bring it into den with me and sit with my computer in my lap.

00:27:40.540 --> 00:27:45.820
 And I'm typing and I'm surfing and I'm working and I'm looking and doing all this stuff.

00:27:46.020 --> 00:27:50.260
 But what I was doing was being distracted from my family and from my kids.

00:27:50.780 --> 00:27:57.740
 And so now I have a rule that when I stop working at the end of the day, my computer stays right here in my office.

00:27:57.740 --> 00:28:02.700
 It's plugged in to my screen here, but it stays here in my office.

00:28:02.860 --> 00:28:06.960
 And so the only thing I take when I leave my home office is my phone.

00:28:07.080 --> 00:28:11.460
 And so a lot of times I do will surf Facebook and, you know, look around.

00:28:12.360 --> 00:28:21.220
 But all that to say, if I'm usually watching a church service, doesn't matter if it's a midweek Wednesday service or a Sunday service,

00:28:21.640 --> 00:28:28.260
 I personally, just Greg Atkinson, I don't have my laptop on me because it stays plugged into my office.

00:28:28.260 --> 00:28:37.100
 And so if I'm watching on YouTube, I don't really have any way watching my television to interact with you.

00:28:37.280 --> 00:28:38.460
 I just consume.

00:28:39.260 --> 00:28:46.140
 And then if I'm watching on my phone, there's a lot more, you know, I can do with light buttons and typing on my phone.

00:28:46.760 --> 00:28:54.440
 But what I have seen that churches are getting some response from, and I was talking to Drake Farmer in Canada,

00:28:54.440 --> 00:29:01.840
 but they had had some success with it, and that's just leaving the online connection card on their homepage of their website

00:29:01.840 --> 00:29:08.800
 so that when people just in any time of the day, any hour of the day, any day of the week come to the church website,

00:29:08.920 --> 00:29:09.960
 they can fill that out.

00:29:10.520 --> 00:29:16.760
 And then another friend of mine just posted in my Facebook group,

00:29:17.020 --> 00:29:21.160
 and he's at a pretty large church in Arizona, a very large church,

00:29:21.160 --> 00:29:30.720
 and he posted that he and his team watched five or six churches, maybe it was seven, this past weekend,

00:29:31.380 --> 00:29:34.840
 and they filled out their online connection card.

00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:41.280
 They filled out their Next Steps card just to test the system, and none of them got back with them.

00:29:41.760 --> 00:29:42.360
 None of them.

00:29:43.140 --> 00:29:49.300
 So they secret shopped online, and I do this a lot, I do online secret shoppers,

00:29:49.420 --> 00:29:54.620
 but they secret shopped six to seven churches, and this is a mega church in Arizona,

00:29:55.160 --> 00:29:59.180
 secret shopped six to seven churches, filled out their online connection card,

00:29:59.180 --> 00:30:00.900
 and didn't hear back from anybody.

00:30:01.640 --> 00:30:07.220
 And so my thought is, it's great to have all these cool tools and websites and forms and options and all that,

00:30:07.320 --> 00:30:13.480
 but if you don't do the work, how are we going to follow up with people and disciple them and move them to their next step?

00:30:13.660 --> 00:30:15.780
 And so I thought, and so he posted it.

00:30:15.840 --> 00:30:20.240
 He didn't tell who the churches were, but he posted this long comment in my Facebook group,

00:30:20.320 --> 00:30:24.440
 basically saying, if you're going to put it out there, you've got to follow up and do it.

00:30:24.500 --> 00:30:26.880
 And so I have my own personal story.

00:30:27.420 --> 00:30:38.600
 I secret shopped a church in Pittsburgh recently, and they had a plan your visit.

00:30:38.600 --> 00:30:41.120
 This was months and months ago before pre-COVID.

00:30:41.520 --> 00:30:46.280
 They had a plan your visit on the website, which is a very cool, trendy, popular thing right now.

00:30:46.380 --> 00:30:48.020
 People are doing plan your visit pages.

00:30:48.800 --> 00:30:53.740
 But I filled it out and said, hey, I'm coming Sunday to this service,

00:30:53.740 --> 00:30:58.480
 and I was supposed to get contacted by a host that will say, hey, I'll meet you at the door,

00:30:58.540 --> 00:31:00.320
 and I'll give you a tour, and I'll walk you around.

00:31:00.580 --> 00:31:02.080
 But nobody contacted me.

00:31:02.500 --> 00:31:03.700
 Nobody reached out to me.

00:31:04.140 --> 00:31:09.100
 So when I did the debrief with the church, I said, that's great that you have a plan your visit,

00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:10.740
 but nobody reached out to me.

00:31:11.140 --> 00:31:12.540
 So what was the point of it?

00:31:12.600 --> 00:31:15.820
 It's a cool, trendy thing to have a plan your visit on your website,

00:31:16.160 --> 00:31:18.620
 but you've got to reach out to somebody.

00:31:18.840 --> 00:31:19.860
 You've got to follow through.

00:31:20.320 --> 00:31:25.460
 And so it all comes back to the same old thing we've heard for years and years and years and years,

00:31:25.800 --> 00:31:26.460
 systems.

00:31:27.140 --> 00:31:31.080
 Do you have processes in place to follow up with people?

00:31:31.240 --> 00:31:38.080
 And now in this new era, do you have digital processes and systems in place to follow up with people?

00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:40.120
 Well, now you're speaking Ray's language.

00:31:40.120 --> 00:31:45.800
 So I just wanted to cut Ray off so that I can say you just like, that's Ray's love language.

00:31:46.060 --> 00:31:47.500
 Ray, preach it, man.

00:31:47.660 --> 00:31:48.320
 Bring it, Ray.

00:31:48.500 --> 00:31:50.140
 Tell us what's on your heart.

00:31:50.460 --> 00:31:55.560
 No, 100%, because we have a connect page, and that's something that we pump three times during the broadcast.

00:31:55.920 --> 00:31:58.440
 We pump it beginning, middle, and end.

00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:00.640
 And it's worked great.

00:32:00.820 --> 00:32:04.220
 We've got a lot of people filling out the card, all that stuff.

00:32:04.540 --> 00:32:10.320
 But even then, that drives me nuts as far as why wouldn't even churches consider automating some of that follow up?

00:32:10.420 --> 00:32:10.860
 You know what I'm saying?

00:32:11.140 --> 00:32:18.600
 These forms, whether you're working with Rock, RMS, or we're working with OneShirt, some of you're working with FellowshipOne or with different folks, like you can automate instantly.

00:32:18.840 --> 00:32:24.680
 People can get an email, a text message, a something, some form of connection to let them know that you care.

00:32:24.920 --> 00:32:27.380
 But on top of that, this is gold.

00:32:27.600 --> 00:32:35.780
 Like the thing that I keep preaching to our team is as long as the engagements go up in the sense of the connection cards that we receive, we'll watch the views go up and down.

00:32:35.920 --> 00:32:37.360
 The views to me are like the stock market.

00:32:37.460 --> 00:32:40.100
 We'll watch that go up and down over the next few weeks.

00:32:40.120 --> 00:32:44.680
 And we will be impressed and unimpressed, and people will have their doubts as far as who's really behind the screen.

00:32:44.860 --> 00:32:51.680
 But the minute you get a card, that's when you automatically know who's watching you, and you can help them take that next step.

00:32:51.860 --> 00:32:54.300
 So it would just drive me berserk.

00:32:54.660 --> 00:32:55.180
 Oh, I know.

00:32:55.720 --> 00:33:20.580
 You know, I was a campus pastor for six years at a multi-site church, and one of my passions after every, our last service of the morning on Sunday, after every week, my passion was my team would collect all the connection cards, because I'm a big connection card guy, and they would have on the top of the stack all of the first-time guests, because they knew that I was just ready to follow up.

00:33:20.580 --> 00:33:32.520
 But I cannot fathom the stewardship component of having somebody fill that out and not following up, not contacting them to say, thanks for coming.

00:33:33.540 --> 00:33:35.880
 Oh, but I can explain why.

00:33:36.420 --> 00:33:37.880
 And I don't know if this is a fact.

00:33:38.040 --> 00:33:45.120
 I would actually love to ask the guy in Arizona, how many of the churches were in the city, or was it out of state?

00:33:45.320 --> 00:33:52.140
 Because I'm willing to bet there's something interior within the churches, something innate, better word, in context in their DNA.

00:33:52.760 --> 00:33:53.260
 Oh, yeah.

00:33:53.380 --> 00:33:55.680
 Oh, oh, they live in another state.

00:33:56.060 --> 00:33:57.900
 Oh, yeah, that's just a one-time thing.

00:33:57.980 --> 00:33:59.280
 I don't need to follow up on them.

00:33:59.480 --> 00:34:00.600
 I felt that tension.

00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:01.340
 I think it was both.

00:34:01.460 --> 00:34:04.240
 I think he said they did some local churches as well.

00:34:04.520 --> 00:34:04.920
 Wow.

00:34:05.120 --> 00:34:18.060
 Yeah, but you're right, though, because, you know, I do these Charlotte getaway weekends where church leaders will come spend a weekend with me in Charlotte, and we'll take them to visit three churches in person, in addition to doing some workshop and training.

00:34:18.580 --> 00:34:28.680
 But we stopped going to one church because when we went to their welcome center and we filled out the connection card, and I limit it to 10 people.

00:34:28.680 --> 00:34:36.320
 So you have this group of me and my facilitators, 13 of us, come walking into a church, and they fill out the card.

00:34:36.940 --> 00:34:48.820
 And when the guy behind the welcome center, and we went to this church specifically because they have a really neat welcome gift, and I wanted to stretch people's brains of what you could do besides a coffee mug.

00:34:48.820 --> 00:34:53.060
 And I have my share of gifts around my desk and coffee mugs and stuff.

00:34:53.780 --> 00:34:57.860
 But we wanted to show them, hey, here's a really cool gift.

00:34:58.140 --> 00:34:58.860
 But guess what?

00:34:58.900 --> 00:35:02.060
 This guy looked at their car and said, oh, you're from Canada?

00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:03.460
 Oh, you're from Seattle?

00:35:04.120 --> 00:35:04.440
 Ooh.

00:35:04.840 --> 00:35:05.720
 Give me the gift bag.

00:35:06.140 --> 00:35:06.540
 No.

00:35:06.940 --> 00:35:08.180
 No, I've heard of this.

00:35:08.420 --> 00:35:09.220
 No, this is true.

00:35:09.380 --> 00:35:10.000
 I've heard of this.

00:35:10.240 --> 00:35:10.540
 Yeah, yeah.

00:35:10.580 --> 00:35:11.780
 He took the gift back.

00:35:12.040 --> 00:35:13.960
 He said, thank you for coming.

00:35:14.140 --> 00:35:15.880
 Those are just for local people.

00:35:16.680 --> 00:35:26.340
 And our guests, my guests that I had from churches all over North America that weekend were so turned off that we as a team decided we'll never go back to that church again.

00:35:26.840 --> 00:35:34.100
 And I told the staff what happened because when I had another Charlotte getaway weekend coming up, they emailed me and said, hey, we just want to be prepared.

00:35:34.100 --> 00:35:35.500
 Are you guys coming again this weekend?

00:35:35.660 --> 00:35:36.600
 I said, no, we're not coming.

00:35:36.860 --> 00:35:37.840
 There's another church.

00:35:38.340 --> 00:36:01.300
 But, no, it's this concept of just because I am in Charlotte, if somebody logs in to our online service from Miami, Florida, it doesn't mean I can't reach out to them and follow up with them and send them some kind of gift and thank them and enter into a relationship with them and talk with them about next steps.

00:36:01.300 --> 00:36:12.020
 I mean, it's just unbelievable to think that people wouldn't follow up with somebody because so much is at stake.

00:36:12.780 --> 00:36:24.040
 Yeah, that drives me bonkers only because Jeff and I, we've had this conversation with so many people as far as like who's within your scope of shepherding, right?

00:36:24.100 --> 00:36:28.380
 Like who's within the scope of what it is that God brings to you.

00:36:28.460 --> 00:36:33.680
 And, you know, it's funny because we talk about being churches for the nations and for missions.

00:36:33.680 --> 00:36:43.200
 And we use that language from the stage, yet for some reason with digital avenues, I can't fathom why it is that a church would turn away somebody who's coming up to you saying, hey, I want to know more.

00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:47.780
 And yet, for some reason, they're like, well, you fall outside of our city, state, area code.

00:36:48.420 --> 00:36:49.000
 Too bad.

00:36:49.160 --> 00:36:58.060
 It really comes down to this thing of Greg at the beginning of people have a theological issue with church online and the theology is not in the broadcasting of the services.

00:36:58.360 --> 00:37:01.100
 We're okay with people getting saved all around the world.

00:37:01.300 --> 00:37:02.900
 Let's baptize people in Ethiopia.

00:37:03.060 --> 00:37:04.040
 How awesome is this?

00:37:04.520 --> 00:37:14.360
 Where we have the issue, where the perceived issue is, thank you, Eric Geiger, for sharing this, episode nine of the Church Digital Podcast, it's all centered around discipleship.

00:37:15.340 --> 00:37:16.760
 Let's get people saved.

00:37:17.120 --> 00:37:28.320
 But when it actually comes to helping them grow deeper in their faith, creating the biblical communities, helping them understand the personal mission, discipleship, evangelism, that doesn't happen virtually.

00:37:28.440 --> 00:37:30.540
 You've got to be breathing the same air molecules.

00:37:30.780 --> 00:37:31.940
 It's in the Bible, right?

00:37:31.940 --> 00:37:37.820
 If we breathe the same air molecules, therefore, we are – no, it doesn't work that way.

00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:43.240
 But that's how we've lived, and hopefully COVID changes that.

00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:48.100
 But if COVID doesn't change that, we're going to be in a world of hurt with COVID 2.0.

00:37:48.720 --> 00:38:01.620
 Well, and think about – we mentioned Myron Pierce earlier, who we were on a webinar with earlier, and I've been friends with him for a few years and have visited his church, and he's visited my church, and he's launched these digit churches.

00:38:01.620 --> 00:38:07.080
 And he's online campuses, but I know him personally, one-on-one, as I have been to his church.

00:38:07.080 --> 00:38:14.680
 And when he came and I brought him into my church to speak to our church and to do some training, he is a disciple maker.

00:38:14.840 --> 00:38:20.020
 So he's passionate about making disciples and meeting with people and opening up God's Word and reading with them.

00:38:20.540 --> 00:38:24.680
 But who is to say that we can't do it just like this?

00:38:25.120 --> 00:38:28.740
 It doesn't matter where you live across the country or across the world.

00:38:29.300 --> 00:38:35.320
 If I have come in contact with Jeff Reed and Jeff says, Greg, I would like to be a disciple.

00:38:35.480 --> 00:38:37.520
 Would you meet with me once a week?

00:38:38.340 --> 00:38:39.760
 Why not do it like this?

00:38:39.880 --> 00:38:42.500
 It's the same thing as sitting in a Starbucks coffee shop.

00:38:42.740 --> 00:38:45.500
 I don't have to physically touch you to disciple you.

00:38:46.040 --> 00:38:50.660
 I mean, yes, it would be great to meet in person and hug and go get coffee together.

00:38:51.080 --> 00:39:04.400
 But who's to say that we can't sit down and say, I mean, this is, you know, I used to work with ex-pastors, and we had a network of nationwide counselors that did Zoom counseling.

00:39:05.040 --> 00:39:16.380
 You can sit down and talk with people via Zoom and have deep discussions, soul-wrenching discussions of your childhood and trauma and things you've been through.

00:39:16.740 --> 00:39:18.660
 You can meet just like this.

00:39:18.760 --> 00:39:20.540
 You don't have to live in the same zip code.

00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:22.660
 Yeah, you know, and I'm sorry.

00:39:22.760 --> 00:39:25.880
 This just, this bugs me, and I don't want to get on too much on this perch.

00:39:25.880 --> 00:39:39.080
 But it just drives me nuts that we would be okay with congregants spending thousands of dollars to spend a week in a different country to preach to somebody about Jesus, get back on an airplane, leave them without discipleship.

00:39:39.680 --> 00:39:52.120
 And yet, we're not okay with discipling somebody who lives in that same country, who finds us online, that reaches out to us via connection card that costs us zero dollars and zero cents, and we have the capability of discipling them from here.

00:39:53.800 --> 00:40:08.220
 There's also, you know, if you want to look at it and just throwing out every angle, I, my friends will tell you, it's actually one of my future books, but my friends will tell you, Greg always plays the long game.

00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:10.400
 And so I'm always thinking way down the road.

00:40:10.860 --> 00:40:13.180
 And so I'm not looking for an immediate result.

00:40:13.300 --> 00:40:15.080
 I'm looking at something down the road.

00:40:15.080 --> 00:40:26.300
 But the way the church is interconnected now through social media, you know, whether you have 500 friends or 5,000 friends on Facebook, we know so many church leaders.

00:40:26.900 --> 00:40:28.820
 Pastors love to network.

00:40:28.980 --> 00:40:34.120
 They love to get in Facebook groups and learn from one another and share resources and share articles.

00:40:34.900 --> 00:40:40.780
 And Jeff, you know, I follow your Facebook group, and I know you've done some stuff in my group.

00:40:40.780 --> 00:40:44.940
 And there's a great Facebook live you did in there that people need to check out.

00:40:45.420 --> 00:40:51.520
 But there's a lot of collaboration and pastors talking with one another.

00:40:51.820 --> 00:40:59.740
 And what I'll see from time to time is somebody in my Facebook group will say, hey, we just had somebody from our congregation move to Tampa, Florida.

00:40:59.860 --> 00:41:01.420
 Anybody know of a good church there?

00:41:01.560 --> 00:41:14.520
 Well, we're living in a day and age where we could build a real relationship with somebody in Tampa, Florida, and then say, you know what, have you ever considered physically going to a church?

00:41:14.620 --> 00:41:18.740
 Because I bet, I mean, I know Radiant Church, Aaron Burke in Tampa, Florida.

00:41:18.860 --> 00:41:19.660
 They're a great church.

00:41:20.160 --> 00:41:24.340
 I would be glad to get you in touch with Aaron and encourage you to go check them out.

00:41:24.340 --> 00:41:36.520
 I mean, but long game, there's no, why cut off and not even open the opportunity to dialogue and get to know and build a relationship with somebody because of distance?

00:41:37.340 --> 00:41:55.740
 And for a lot of reasons, but maybe even if your goal, and I'm not wired like this, and I know you're not, but if your goal was the ultimate end all is the physical church, you still playing the long game, could potentially be able to introduce them to somebody that lives in their city.

00:41:56.120 --> 00:41:59.380
 Because we're so interconnected on social media.

00:41:59.380 --> 00:42:01.320
 And so I could say, oh, you live in Miami?

00:42:01.820 --> 00:42:02.040
 Why?

00:42:02.180 --> 00:42:03.500
 I have a lot of friends in Miami.

00:42:03.640 --> 00:42:05.320
 Let me tell you some churches to check out.

00:42:05.480 --> 00:42:07.260
 You got Christ Fellowship Miami.

00:42:07.520 --> 00:42:09.260
 You got Voo Church.

00:42:09.420 --> 00:42:10.680
 There's all these great churches.

00:42:10.840 --> 00:42:14.900
 I mean, you can point people because of the church world that we live in.

00:42:14.960 --> 00:42:18.840
 And so I wouldn't be so short-sighted to say, well, they're in Miami.

00:42:18.960 --> 00:42:19.540
 I'm in Charlotte.

00:42:19.760 --> 00:42:21.200
 I'm not going to reach out to them.

00:42:21.660 --> 00:42:23.440
 That doesn't make sense to me in 2020.

00:42:25.500 --> 00:42:29.760
 Yeah, there's definitely a tribe mentality that's kind of popping up.

00:42:30.100 --> 00:42:36.260
 I mean, even with Stadia, like, they've got their network of churches, of 1,000 churches that they've worked with, that they've helped.

00:42:36.640 --> 00:42:38.920
 There are churches that are planning and supporting.

00:42:39.560 --> 00:42:46.100
 And it's been interesting, as I'm just coming to get to know more of them and how all these churches are interconnected.

00:42:46.860 --> 00:42:51.780
 You know, another option is what, Ray, what we used to do with house churches.

00:42:52.180 --> 00:43:00.440
 Somebody would go to Tampa or Orlando, hey, consider setting up a micro-location and doing the services there through Church Online.

00:43:00.680 --> 00:43:06.560
 You know, there's different models of everything from doing more of a watch party, where it's just watching the service,

00:43:06.660 --> 00:43:13.220
 to more of, like, what I think Jay Cranda's developing out at Saddleback, where it's more of a home gathering,

00:43:13.220 --> 00:43:17.900
 where the person is more responsible for the shepherding and care of the people.

00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:21.780
 There's a higher standard of discipleship within that leader to do that.

00:43:22.200 --> 00:43:24.420
 Tyler Sansom up at First Capital.

00:43:25.260 --> 00:43:26.700
 Like, these are – which is awesome.

00:43:26.740 --> 00:43:33.560
 These are all conversations that we've had lately, and they're all people who are – in this season of COVID here,

00:43:33.820 --> 00:43:35.920
 these are the churches that are not freaking out.

00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:41.280
 I was actually on the phone or on the Zoom yesterday with Church Home, Mark Venti over there catching up.

00:43:41.880 --> 00:43:46.820
 And, you know, some of these guys that were forward-thinking enough pre-COVID, in the midst of this COVID,

00:43:47.300 --> 00:43:49.960
 they're stressed, but they know where they're going.

00:43:50.520 --> 00:43:51.360
 It's still set.

00:43:51.560 --> 00:43:52.300
 At Judah Smith Church.

00:43:53.300 --> 00:43:54.640
 Yeah, Judah Smith Church Home.

00:43:55.180 --> 00:43:57.640
 Yeah, they were way ahead of the curve, man.

00:43:57.720 --> 00:43:58.120
 Oh, yeah.

00:43:58.520 --> 00:43:59.340
 Five campuses.

00:43:59.660 --> 00:44:01.160
 But we'll link to it in the show notes.

00:44:01.220 --> 00:44:02.480
 You can listen to the podcast.

00:44:03.060 --> 00:44:06.680
 We did it – Ray, I don't – what was it, six months ago maybe?

00:44:06.780 --> 00:44:07.480
 It's been a minute.

00:44:07.860 --> 00:44:08.320
 It was a lot.

00:44:08.440 --> 00:44:15.580
 But the thing that I love that I didn't learn in this, he's like, yeah, we shut down two campuses.

00:44:15.580 --> 00:44:21.320
 As a result of COVID, they sold two buildings already in the season.

00:44:22.040 --> 00:44:25.740
 And I was like, man, I didn't realize economic was so harsh for you.

00:44:26.220 --> 00:44:28.200
 And he's like, oh, no, it's not harsh.

00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:29.540
 We're already planning to do it.

00:44:30.560 --> 00:44:32.200
 I mean, we like the campuses.

00:44:32.540 --> 00:44:34.400
 We're always going to be a fidgetal church.

00:44:34.700 --> 00:44:36.380
 It's going to be a mixture of physical and digital.

00:44:36.760 --> 00:44:39.840
 But the campuses weren't performing at the level that online was.

00:44:40.060 --> 00:44:42.720
 So we're going to put more towards our digital strategy.

00:44:43.040 --> 00:44:45.240
 The campuses were holding to a higher standard.

00:44:45.340 --> 00:44:46.760
 And if they can hold that standard, awesome.

00:44:47.300 --> 00:44:49.480
 The campuses were fine previous.

00:44:49.900 --> 00:44:51.800
 But online is performing so much better.

00:44:51.960 --> 00:44:57.540
 Ray, to your point, why don't we just do online more and put more energy that way?

00:44:58.400 --> 00:44:58.760
 Yeah.

00:44:58.860 --> 00:45:04.760
 I was going to say, you know, if you just – if you're results-driven and you look at metrics,

00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:13.220
 if this season, these five, six weeks of coronavirus, COVID, has shown you that you're getting better engagement,

00:45:14.080 --> 00:45:21.860
 better connection, better interaction, better consistency, better attendance, better reach.

00:45:21.860 --> 00:45:29.000
 You know, most churches I hear are reaching five times their typical weekly attendance.

00:45:29.620 --> 00:45:36.320
 If you're getting better results, then go all in on that.

00:45:36.500 --> 00:45:40.280
 Let's push in more on that with a both-and approach.

00:45:40.380 --> 00:45:44.380
 And I'm not saying don't come back and meet together physically once that's safe to do.

00:45:44.380 --> 00:45:53.340
 But don't let the digital side die down either because it's the one that's producing the most fruit right now.

00:45:54.300 --> 00:45:57.580
 And, man, the fields are ripe for harvest.

00:45:58.540 --> 00:45:59.900
 It's a digital world.

00:46:01.180 --> 00:46:01.880
 I couldn't agree more.

00:46:02.260 --> 00:46:07.780
 And I think that's going to be something that, as we talk about this whole digital thing, it just has to be part of it.

00:46:08.340 --> 00:46:10.780
 Jeff, you know, you talked about house church movements.

00:46:11.100 --> 00:46:18.680
 As we talk about the first wave rolling out in terms of reopening plans, I mean, isn't house church just built for that?

00:46:18.820 --> 00:46:20.080
 Isn't it ready to go for that?

00:46:20.080 --> 00:46:23.480
 I can picture my small group that's already been meeting via Zoom.

00:46:23.640 --> 00:46:30.400
 A lot of us live in the same neighborhood, coming together around our TV apps, or for a lot of churches that are still church plants, YouTube, right?

00:46:30.420 --> 00:46:33.640
 Because that's a built-in TV app that's in your TV already ready to go.

00:46:33.700 --> 00:46:34.380
 I agree with you, Greg.

00:46:34.880 --> 00:46:38.300
 I think churches should be leveraging YouTube because, if nothing else, it's a free TV app.

00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:46.620
 Leveraging the biggest screen possible so that the most people can worship, even though we're still gathering at sizes of, you know, 12 or smaller.

00:46:47.280 --> 00:46:49.000
 Yeah, so Ed Stats, it was funny.

00:46:49.240 --> 00:46:57.260
 Ed had spoken on this recently and shared a resource, and somebody sent it to me, and I love this, where he actually stair-stepped.

00:46:57.420 --> 00:47:03.580
 We'll link to it in the show notes, but he stair-stepped this phases of churches reemergence from the crisis.

00:47:03.700 --> 00:47:06.020
 He was talking about family churches.

00:47:06.140 --> 00:47:07.360
 Okay, that's less than 10.

00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:11.820
 So the idea of, hey, your church is in a room less of 10 people.

00:47:12.200 --> 00:47:14.400
 Well, if it's 20, it's more of a house church.

00:47:14.480 --> 00:47:16.940
 So now I have the ability, I have a family of four.

00:47:16.940 --> 00:47:23.240
 I can probably invite three to four families into my house and to create this house church feel.

00:47:23.540 --> 00:47:27.040
 Obviously, keep it clean, like hold the house to the standards.

00:47:27.560 --> 00:47:34.720
 But theoretically, you could, like, do less than 20 utilizing church online and call it something like a house church.

00:47:35.180 --> 00:47:48.480
 A cell church in a space of 20 to 50, a courtyard church, maybe you're doing a courtyard in a church building, outside in the sun, get a portable sound system, get a decent projector, up to 100 people.

00:47:49.480 --> 00:47:51.980
 You know, a small church operating at 250.

00:47:52.660 --> 00:47:58.440
 Like, there are now giga churches, 10,000, 20,000 member churches that are right now asking questions.

00:47:58.800 --> 00:48:03.620
 Where can we gather 250 people together and call that a mid-step?

00:48:03.860 --> 00:48:17.220
 They're literally right now asking those questions, digging around, trying to find large-ish venues that they can use, smaller venues that they can use as a stair-step before they get into the building.

00:48:17.500 --> 00:48:28.940
 And so if we're smart with this, we can utilize the technology to slowly, you know, I joked the other day at the seminar I was at, you boil the frog slowly.

00:48:29.540 --> 00:48:31.460
 You don't, like, crank it up immediately.

00:48:31.640 --> 00:48:36.800
 Some of these 3,000, 4,000 venue buildings, I don't know that you use those anytime soon.

00:48:37.220 --> 00:48:41.840
 The church home, they're like, yeah, we're not anticipating being in our large venues in 2020.

00:48:42.520 --> 00:48:44.760
 We think it's going to all the way be to next year.

00:48:44.760 --> 00:48:48.040
 And so we've got to figure out how to utilize small.

00:48:48.460 --> 00:48:50.600
 Thanks to COVID, small is the new big.

00:48:51.160 --> 00:49:01.420
 And so the more effective we are at these small sizes, Daniel Ems called them social space on this podcast, there's an incredible opportunity for us to still do ministry.

00:49:01.600 --> 00:49:03.320
 By the way, that's not only going to help us today.

00:49:03.740 --> 00:49:09.200
 Once again, in the next COVID crisis, you have that infrastructure in place.

00:49:09.280 --> 00:49:12.060
 I was actually on the phone with Portable Church.

00:49:12.060 --> 00:49:15.960
 I was texting some guys with Portable Church talking about this exact thing.

00:49:16.480 --> 00:49:28.120
 Hey, guys, do you have systems that you're building right now so that a large church can create a cell church environment for 25 to 50 people or a courtyard church for up to 100?

00:49:28.440 --> 00:49:31.220
 Like, make it easy for churches to create this stuff.

00:49:31.260 --> 00:49:35.040
 And they're like, yeah, sure, we're literally designing them right now, getting them set up.

00:49:35.040 --> 00:49:41.980
 So there are going to be options, and let's figure out how to structure yourself so that you can stair-step back in.

00:49:42.340 --> 00:49:46.820
 I forgot about the Ed Stetzer article, but I was basically going to say the same thing.

00:49:46.920 --> 00:49:53.240
 It is a strategic approach to reopening, like Ray was saying, through the house church movement.

00:49:54.100 --> 00:49:56.020
 You know, it's something that's been on my heart for years.

00:49:56.300 --> 00:50:04.720
 Back when I lived in Missouri, 2011 to 2014, I was a part of a house church in addition to my church I was on staff at.

00:50:05.200 --> 00:50:08.340
 I told them, I said, I'm eventually probably going to do a house church.

00:50:08.500 --> 00:50:13.960
 I've been intentionally trying to get to know my neighbors more, I said, but eventually I said, I'll probably do a house church.

00:50:13.960 --> 00:50:24.560
 I said, because we have these church planters in waiting at my church that are going to be sent out to plant more traditional, conventional churches.

00:50:24.980 --> 00:50:29.840
 But I said, yeah, I may plant one day, but it's going to be a house church.

00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:33.540
 It's going to look different than, you know, what we typically do.

00:50:33.900 --> 00:50:43.360
 However, when it comes to easing restrictions with COVID, you can't just yank it off all of a sudden and 500 people show up in the same building again.

00:50:43.360 --> 00:50:57.400
 And so you're going to have to strategically roll it out in a geographic neighborhood, house church, home church, family kind of model of, you know, we've got a group of 10 here and a group of 10 in this neighborhood and a group of 10 in this neighborhood.

00:50:57.660 --> 00:50:59.220
 You're going to have to get really strategic.

00:50:59.220 --> 00:51:08.800
 And that's the kind of stuff that church staff should be working on right now, sitting down, looking at helping their small groups pastor out, breaking down, saying, how can we strategically roll this out?

00:51:09.360 --> 00:51:17.100
 And it would make sense to me to do it through small groups for those that are already existing, for them to start meeting together that know each other.

00:51:17.440 --> 00:51:23.900
 But yeah, like, you know, I had a late night Zoom last night with a church communications director in North Carolina.

00:51:24.160 --> 00:51:26.060
 And she was saying, we're a church of a thousand.

00:51:26.240 --> 00:51:29.500
 We can't just open up and start meeting with a thousand people all together.

00:51:29.820 --> 00:51:31.660
 And I said, no, you can't.

00:51:31.740 --> 00:51:33.520
 You know, you've got to be strategic.

00:51:33.680 --> 00:51:38.740
 It gets back to systems and processes, how you roll it out moving forward.

00:51:39.120 --> 00:51:44.540
 The interesting thing in this is each state, each city, it's going to have a different strategy.

00:51:44.720 --> 00:51:47.940
 Each church, to me, it's the fascinating things.

00:51:48.040 --> 00:51:52.580
 I feel like the church kind of got in a rut because everybody was kind of copying each other.

00:51:53.300 --> 00:51:56.180
 And we're not going to be able to do that.

00:51:56.320 --> 00:52:04.000
 Actually, I had a church tell me, the discipleship pastor told me, he says, Jeff, we're going away for two days.

00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:09.520
 We're doing a virtual retreat, the senior leadership for two days of the church, to plan out the next 12 months.

00:52:10.100 --> 00:52:14.180
 And I was like, how in the world are you going to plan out the next 12 months?

00:52:14.360 --> 00:52:16.680
 You don't even know what next week looks like.

00:52:17.100 --> 00:52:18.480
 And he's like, oh, that's just it.

00:52:18.740 --> 00:52:22.240
 We're planning this thing out as if we're opening up in May.

00:52:22.440 --> 00:52:25.240
 We're planning out if we're opening up in September.

00:52:25.240 --> 00:52:27.920
 And we're planning out if we're opening up in 2021.

00:52:28.560 --> 00:52:30.500
 So we're not planning out 12 months.

00:52:30.500 --> 00:52:33.140
 We're planning out three different paths of 12 months.

00:52:33.460 --> 00:52:35.240
 Essentially, 36 months.

00:52:35.580 --> 00:52:37.320
 They're planning out 36 months of church.

00:52:38.300 --> 00:52:39.940
 I don't know that you have to do that.

00:52:40.100 --> 00:52:41.620
 Some churches may need to.

00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:46.100
 But there's really an opportunity, I think, to think outside the box, experiment.

00:52:46.640 --> 00:52:48.140
 Greg, you were talking about that earlier.

00:52:48.660 --> 00:52:51.500
 And really try to do something different here.

00:52:52.420 --> 00:53:01.680
 Yeah, that's why, like I mentioned, I just did this new blog on GregAtkinson.com about questions you should ask your congregation before you reopen.

00:53:01.680 --> 00:53:11.240
 But yeah, I'm going to go back and edit my blog and add a question of, would you be okay opening up in house churches or smaller venues?

00:53:11.540 --> 00:53:13.640
 Because that needs to be talked through.

00:53:13.880 --> 00:53:17.580
 Because the big question is, when are we going to open?

00:53:17.740 --> 00:53:23.060
 Well, you have some governors that are going to pull the trigger very quickly and some that aren't.

00:53:23.120 --> 00:53:24.400
 And everybody's spread out.

00:53:24.400 --> 00:53:31.100
 However, what the questions that I was asking is, if we open up, are you even going to come?

00:53:31.820 --> 00:53:49.840
 Like, if I'm a church of 500 and I ask my staff and my lay leaders to put their health on the line and to show up and to be ready to serve and 10 people walk through the door and not 500, I've just wasted everybody's time.

00:53:50.120 --> 00:53:58.020
 Why not do a survey and know ahead of time, no, only 10 people are going to show up, 490 are going to stay at home because they think it's too soon.

00:53:58.380 --> 00:53:59.600
 Let's find that out now.

00:53:59.960 --> 00:54:01.420
 And so I didn't build a tool.

00:54:01.600 --> 00:54:04.100
 I didn't build anything that you have to purchase.

00:54:04.320 --> 00:54:10.380
 I actually linked to, like, Typeform and Jotform and Gravity Forms and Google Forms and SurveyMonkey.

00:54:10.580 --> 00:54:19.300
 I said, create a survey however you want to do it, but just get the word out there of, you know, if you have kids, are you going to put them in children's ministry?

00:54:19.420 --> 00:54:23.140
 Help us plan so that we can do this 12-month plan like you're saying.

00:54:23.740 --> 00:54:25.780
 Can we roll out in May?

00:54:26.120 --> 00:54:27.140
 Does it need to be June?

00:54:27.240 --> 00:54:28.180
 Does it need to be September?

00:54:28.300 --> 00:54:29.360
 Does it need to be 2021?

00:54:30.040 --> 00:54:31.000
 Give us data.

00:54:31.200 --> 00:54:32.840
 You know how precious data is.

00:54:32.840 --> 00:54:34.180
 That's why I love connection cards.

00:54:34.620 --> 00:54:37.540
 So give us the data we need to make informed decisions.

00:54:38.300 --> 00:54:38.880
 Love that.

00:54:39.000 --> 00:54:42.240
 Hey, this has been a great conversation.

00:54:44.020 --> 00:54:50.700
 At the start of the conversation, once again, I love getting these guys together and talking because the thing that I'm like, hey, we're going to talk about this.

00:54:50.760 --> 00:54:54.000
 We never get to, but the conversation is so rich in the midst of it.

00:54:54.160 --> 00:54:56.520
 I've loved diving into this.

00:54:56.540 --> 00:54:57.060
 I'll turn back on.

00:54:57.200 --> 00:54:57.880
 We'll do it again.

00:54:58.400 --> 00:54:58.920
 We'll do it again.

00:54:59.320 --> 00:55:00.620
 I want to recreate.

00:55:00.840 --> 00:55:08.260
 And I didn't realize I wanted to do this as much as I did because literally we've had the conversation with Nils today, Greg today, two separate episodes.

00:55:08.460 --> 00:55:12.140
 Jay, I feel like we've talked to Jay in the past month, right?

00:55:12.380 --> 00:55:14.320
 I want to recreate that night at Starbucks.

00:55:14.720 --> 00:55:18.040
 Like get the five of us together on a thing.

00:55:18.120 --> 00:55:19.080
 We'll figure out a topic.

00:55:19.180 --> 00:55:20.180
 We'll figure out a time.

00:55:20.740 --> 00:55:22.740
 That's awesome because there's...

00:55:22.740 --> 00:55:23.900
 That was a monumental night.

00:55:24.280 --> 00:55:33.800
 That was a monumental night, figuring out, discovering the stories of the past, looking at the future, looking at trends of where we're going.

00:55:34.740 --> 00:55:35.980
 Truly, truly phenomenal.

00:55:35.980 --> 00:56:00.980
 And there's plenty of opportunities for churches, big and small, to learn in this season, to try to figure out how to not go back, not to think you want to go back to the way that it was pre-COVID, but to learn things in this season to help you be better as a church after COVID, and to also prepare you for whatever's next, the next COVID, the next crisis, the next thing that's going to come up.

00:56:00.980 --> 00:56:08.220
 Because, thank you very much, seminary student, whose name I don't remember, you cannot put the toothpaste back in the tube.

00:56:09.080 --> 00:56:16.120
 And the other thing is, it's just that reminding of how small the world actually is, you know, all these connections.

00:56:16.900 --> 00:56:19.220
 And we meet people online.

00:56:19.360 --> 00:56:20.840
 We meet people through social media.

00:56:21.300 --> 00:56:25.100
 But it is so much sweeter when you finally do get to meet them.

00:56:25.100 --> 00:56:37.260
 And so through technology, we have the opportunity to build relationships we otherwise, so like if I'm walking in my local grocery store, I'm not going to bump into Jeff.

00:56:37.380 --> 00:56:44.940
 And so I, and I'm not going to see him at my local church or in my community, so I don't have a chance to get to know him through social media.

00:56:45.160 --> 00:56:54.040
 I can start to build a relationship so that when I come to Miami, like I did, and I say, Jeff, take me to the best Cuban sandwich, and you hook me up.

00:56:54.040 --> 00:57:04.200
 That time is so much sweeter because we had built this relationship online, and then when we break bread and eat that Cuban sandwich together, it's an awesome thing.

00:57:04.340 --> 00:57:16.400
 And so why shut down that opportunity when we can get to know somebody from Detroit, and then who knows, one day you may have a business trip or a conference or a reason to be in Detroit and get to see them face to face.

00:57:16.460 --> 00:57:17.980
 It's a beautiful world we live in.

00:57:18.420 --> 00:57:26.120
 Yeah, and I'll go ahead and say it. If any podcast listeners want to come down to Miami, I will, too, take you to Havana, 1941.

00:57:27.100 --> 00:57:28.640
 Is that the name, Ray?

00:57:28.860 --> 00:57:29.180
 1959.

00:57:29.840 --> 00:57:30.200
 1959.

00:57:31.060 --> 00:57:33.540
 So, so good. Oh, my gosh.

00:57:33.720 --> 00:57:36.320
 I'm so there. I can't wait, man. That's going to be a great—

00:57:36.320 --> 00:57:37.700
 Ray, you're not invited. No, I'm kidding.

00:57:37.840 --> 00:57:46.340
 I'm coming. I'm totally coming, man. We're going to Miami you all up. We're going to play Pitbull as loud as we can, and we're going to eat Cuban sandwiches nonstop. It'll be a good time.

00:57:46.340 --> 00:58:01.740
 Well, you guys have the sun, and they're saying sun helps lessen the impact of the virus, and there's a lot of sun in Miami, so we should all have a big party in Miami because there's a lot of heat and a lot of sun, so that should be the safest place in America right now.

00:58:02.360 --> 00:58:08.420
 I mean, it's never a bad place to have more pastors come and come on down and help us out, man. That's all I'm saying.

00:58:09.560 --> 00:58:17.240
 But if you come, stick around. It's kind of hard to get pastors to come down here sometimes, but that's a completely separate podcast and probably somebody else's issue, not mine.

00:58:17.760 --> 00:58:27.880
 So, hey, we're going to land the plane. This has been a great podcast, and we're going to definitely do more with this, and we'll come back around and get the OG crew back together.

00:58:28.360 --> 00:58:30.740
 Ray, as we're landing the plane, any closing thoughts?

00:58:31.180 --> 00:58:41.520
 Yeah, Greg, thanks so much for taking the time. You're absolutely right. You know, when we all look back at what's happened over the last, you know, like we talked about a conversation that happened two to three years ago.

00:58:41.760 --> 00:58:51.620
 When we look back over what's happened in the last 10 years, and we recognize that the church today is different and that it's going to stay different, let some of this encourage you.

00:58:51.700 --> 00:58:59.000
 Yes, it is scary. Take a moment and breathe, and then get ready to accept the new normal. It's going to be okay. God is going to use us.

00:58:59.100 --> 00:59:04.560
 What Jeff and what Greg have been talking about is completely fine. Jesus said that the gates of hell won't prevail against it.

00:59:04.920 --> 00:59:07.980
 So if we're going to embrace digital avenues to get it done, let's do it.

00:59:07.980 --> 00:59:12.220
 Greg, as we're landing the plane on your side, any closing thoughts? Any last thoughts?

00:59:13.020 --> 00:59:20.180
 No, I just encourage people to keep watching your podcast, listening to your podcast, and checking your resources, your articles.

00:59:20.540 --> 00:59:27.560
 It seems like every day you're cranking out new articles, new content, new blogs, and I was thinking, man, how much is Stadia paying this guy?

00:59:27.560 --> 00:59:37.080
 This dude is cranking out content. But no, I think you guys are crushing it, and so just keep paying attention.

00:59:37.300 --> 00:59:43.720
 You've got some great guests and some great insight and wisdom coming on the podcast, and so thank you for what you're doing.

00:59:44.500 --> 00:59:51.600
 You know, as we said on the webinar we recorded earlier today, none of us have been through a global pandemic before.

00:59:51.860 --> 00:59:53.340
 You know, this is new to all of us.

00:59:53.340 --> 01:00:01.060
 There are new experts for this season of where the church can't even physically gather, unless you were around back in the Spanish flu days.

01:00:01.240 --> 01:00:03.900
 Like, none of us are experts. We don't know this world.

01:00:04.340 --> 01:00:09.220
 And so we're all figuring it out as we go. We're all building the ship as we go.

01:00:09.620 --> 01:00:13.100
 But you guys are really helping navigate, and so thank you for your work.

01:00:13.100 --> 01:00:19.900
 Awesome. Yeah. I was going to make some joke paralleling Jim Tomberlin to the Spanish flu, but that's probably not in my best interest.

01:00:20.300 --> 01:00:24.780
 So sorry, Jim. I'm not even going to say what I was thinking. We love you, Jim.

01:00:25.100 --> 01:00:30.260
 Hey, this has been a great podcast and lesson learned.

01:00:30.780 --> 01:00:38.400
 Surround yourself with smart people, because when you need them, they will involve themselves and make you look a lot better than you actually are.

01:00:38.520 --> 01:00:45.040
 That was actually what I did through COVID, because a lot of smart people came alongside and helped in that.

01:00:45.580 --> 01:00:58.020
 And Ray, one of many involved in this, and what we've been able to do through the podcast and blogs and groups, and even working alongside Stadia in this has been phenomenal.

01:00:58.580 --> 01:01:05.540
 Yeah. If you guys aren't involved in Facebook, well, first off, Greg's group is awesome, 12,000, 13,000 people in that.

01:01:05.800 --> 01:01:15.440
 If you're not involved in Facebook groups that are tied to this church, either like Greg's, the one that I lead through for Church Online with Stadia, there are others that do Church Online stuff.

01:01:15.440 --> 01:01:25.020
 You guys are missing out, especially in this experimental season where there is no right answer, and we're all kind of guessing and trying to figure out how to navigate your way through.

01:01:25.280 --> 01:01:33.260
 There's always somebody who is where you want to be, and they are more than willing to contribute and help you with that in groups like this.

01:01:33.320 --> 01:01:40.080
 By the way, if you're in one of those groups, be sure to help out somebody behind you at the same way you're looking for help above you.

01:01:40.080 --> 01:01:48.020
 And what happens, as all boats rise, we end up all changing the culture within the church through Facebook groups, which is crazy.

01:01:48.180 --> 01:01:55.360
 So I've loved doing it, and I want to continue on doing it, and obviously, Greg, love being a part of what you guys are doing.

01:01:55.520 --> 01:01:57.560
 So, hey, once again, thank you for the podcast.

01:01:57.820 --> 01:02:01.260
 For Ray, for Greg, this is Jeff with The Church Digital.

01:02:01.620 --> 01:02:04.000
 Thanks for being here, and we'll see you next time on the podcast.

01:02:04.160 --> 01:02:04.640
 Y'all have a good day.