WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.060 Episode 73 of the Church Digital Podcast, once again, powered by Stadia Church Planting. 00:00:05.500 --> 00:00:10.440 Jeff here. We've got a really relevant episode for you today. I'm excited about it. I always 00:00:10.440 --> 00:00:13.920 feel bad now if I don't say I'm excited because I'm kind of locked in because I've said it so 00:00:13.920 --> 00:00:20.500 often. I'm excited, but it's also relevant because we're all trying to figure out how best to go 00:00:20.500 --> 00:00:25.680 back to the buildings or how to stair-step to get to the buildings. We've had the conversations 00:00:25.680 --> 00:00:31.300 about thinking digital first. Go back and listen to that episode if you've not yet. It's a solid 00:00:31.300 --> 00:00:35.720 episode to help us remember, even as we're going back to the building, we need to think digital 00:00:35.720 --> 00:00:41.660 first. That's not this podcast. This podcast is, hey, if we want to get back into the building, 00:00:42.160 --> 00:00:46.880 are there other ways than just meeting in the building? Because there's a lot of tension. I've 00:00:46.880 --> 00:00:52.720 had conversations with larger venues that are like, hey, yeah, we're not able to open the venue or we're 00:00:52.720 --> 00:00:58.000 not even thinking we're going to go back into the venue until 2021. And so that's six to nine months. 00:00:58.000 --> 00:01:03.120 So we're still doing this digital strategy. But as we're stair-stepping and as they're starting to 00:01:03.120 --> 00:01:11.540 open up, hey, could we do a micro-location? Could we do a house church? What would a smaller movement of 00:01:11.540 --> 00:01:18.300 churches be? What would our church look like that was scattered, that was splintered, that was dispersed 00:01:18.300 --> 00:01:26.100 across our city? What if our people really did figure out how to be on mission and engaging with people 00:01:26.100 --> 00:01:32.960 across the city? What would that look like as we started to relax the code, the limitations of this 00:01:32.960 --> 00:01:41.120 lockdown in our cities? What if we really did ask our people to be this church dispersed? You see, 00:01:41.160 --> 00:01:46.160 this is the conversation that we're having today. It's more in the line of not, how do we get back 00:01:46.160 --> 00:01:51.580 into the building? And what does a ticket system look like? And 20%, is it really worth opening the 00:01:51.580 --> 00:01:56.640 building for the 100, 150 people that can see the venue? Those are not the conversations that we want 00:01:56.640 --> 00:02:04.000 to have today. What we wanted to talk about today is, can we really do this whole priesthood of believers 00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:10.720 where we empower people to be on mission within their neighborhoods, utilizing their homes as an 00:02:10.720 --> 00:02:17.140 opportunity to connect with people in a new way, to reach their physical and maybe even their virtual 00:02:17.140 --> 00:02:24.080 circle of influence? Can the church really pull off on mission like that? And to this end, we're bringing 00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:30.880 in a couple guys into the conversation. First off, we're bringing in Greg Ackerman. Greg is the director of 00:02:30.880 --> 00:02:36.680 online community for Crossroads Church in Cincinnati. Crossroads has been no stranger to the podcast. Matt 00:02:36.680 --> 00:02:42.480 Welty, who's the technology pastor, has essentially been on this podcast, I think at least twice, maybe 00:02:42.480 --> 00:02:49.360 more even if I could go back and count. But Greg has stepped in and Greg was part of starting Crossroads 00:02:49.360 --> 00:02:55.440 microchurch movement several years ago. He's telling some stories about that and even where that microchurch 00:02:55.440 --> 00:03:01.280 movement is today. And of course, Ray DeArmas, digital pastor for Christ Fellowship Miami, is coming on the 00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:07.520 podcast as well to share some of his experiences with micro. And so we've got Greg, we've got Ray, 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:13.520 and of course, Jeff with the Church Digital in a conversation that I'm calling microlocations, 00:03:13.760 --> 00:03:20.400 stair-stepping back to the buildings. Okay, everybody, here you go. I started at Crossroads about four and a half 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:31.040 years ago with a very small team that was commissioned to figure out a expansion model for Crossroads that 00:03:31.040 --> 00:03:37.840 didn't rely on buildings. We were thinking way in advance and we knew what the investment to create 00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:45.040 physical space would cost. And frankly, it's astronomical. If we were to keep expanding at 00:03:45.040 --> 00:03:49.680 the rate that we were and putting down physical locations. So there was a small team of us that 00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:56.400 was brought on board and commissioned to figure out a new way to do it. We leaned heavily towards digital, 00:03:57.120 --> 00:04:04.080 where we had an online experience that in its infancy was okay and has gotten way more mature 00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:11.600 and robust in the years that have followed. But we really started by finding a lot of people who were 00:04:11.600 --> 00:04:18.720 part of the church but had moved away that still had a passion for the culture that we have at 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:24.640 Crossroads and also reaching their friends and neighbors and co-workers for Jesus. And really did our 00:04:24.640 --> 00:04:32.080 best to start having conversations with them around what it means to be the church in your everyday life, 00:04:32.080 --> 00:04:40.240 have this, this is a churchy term, but this priesthood of believers where they are equipped and empowered 00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:48.080 to do all the things that the church would do. And it's, it was a phenomenally educational road and a 00:04:48.080 --> 00:04:54.720 rough road at times and there's also incredible fruit that came from it. Because the, the, there's a bunch 00:04:54.720 --> 00:05:00.080 of different mindset shifts that needed to happen for those people who were out figuring out the 00:05:00.080 --> 00:05:06.240 micro site thing or the house church thing or the missional thing where coming from a really large 00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:14.960 church like Crossroads, uh, there was a correct mindset that the church is the, the, the storehouse where 00:05:14.960 --> 00:05:22.720 you get your stuff. Um, whether that is in, in our case, things like, like coffee or materials or things 00:05:22.720 --> 00:05:30.880 like that. That's also where you go to have services that, that, um, happen like baptism or communion or 00:05:30.880 --> 00:05:39.040 things like that. Uh, so we took people around an idea of, uh, you can do these things. You have the, 00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:43.680 the ability to lead people to Jesus. You don't have to bring them to the building to have that happen. 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:48.160 You have the ability to baptize people in your house. You can serve communion. You can do, um, 00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:55.680 all these things on your own, uh, because you've been given that authority. Uh, and while it's really, 00:05:55.680 --> 00:06:00.240 really easy to say, and you can make a great soundbite of it, it's a long road to walk with 00:06:00.240 --> 00:06:07.920 people who, um, grew up and grew their faith in a really, really powerful, positive ways inside of a 00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:14.240 church that has a ton of structure and does a lot of things for you. That was a long time, uh, where we, 00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:20.400 we, I did that for probably about two and a half years and then moved to a centralized team that 00:06:20.400 --> 00:06:26.160 focused on groups and discipleship. So small group ministry. Uh, and I led that team for, uh, about two 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:32.880 years and I was, um, able to take a lot of the lessons that we'd learned with house church and, and 00:06:32.880 --> 00:06:41.360 micro site, um, expansion that we did and bring that into small groups. So focusing specifically 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:49.520 on the leaders of groups and making sure they had what they needed to lead their people and, uh, and, 00:06:49.520 --> 00:06:56.160 and grow them. Um, lessons that we, that we learned along the way and try to spend, um, a lot of time 00:06:56.160 --> 00:07:02.080 on them is that, uh, you have a life that's worthy of imitation, that there's probably something in your 00:07:02.080 --> 00:07:08.000 life that is a step ahead of somebody else's and it's worth and it's worthy to be imitated and you 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:13.520 can lead people in that direction. Um, a lot of the stuff that we dealt with, whether it was with 00:07:13.520 --> 00:07:21.200 micros and, and home churches or small groups is, uh, leader encouragement and confidence. It's really 00:07:21.200 --> 00:07:27.200 easy and it's a constant narrative that a lot of leaders have that, um, I'm not worthy. I don't know 00:07:27.200 --> 00:07:31.440 what I'm doing. Um, what if this happens? I don't know how to do these kinds of things. 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:39.440 So we spent, um, a lot of time, uh, and created a lot of resources so that folks felt that they could, 00:07:39.440 --> 00:07:45.760 that, um, just being who they are and having this relationship with Christ qualified them for the 00:07:45.760 --> 00:07:52.320 ministry that they were doing. Um, and being able to come alongside them, talk to them, pick them up when 00:07:52.320 --> 00:07:56.720 they felt like things were going poorly, um, talk through difficult things that happened in small 00:07:56.720 --> 00:08:03.200 groups because like that's the wild west out there, uh, has been, has been, um, the thing that we've 00:08:03.200 --> 00:08:07.920 focused on for the past couple of years. And then, um, like I said earlier, uh, about 00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:14.880 three or so months ago, I made the move back to our online communities, um, to help out with, 00:08:14.880 --> 00:08:21.280 with what's going on there. Uh, and we have a newer focus now where instead of looking just at 00:08:21.280 --> 00:08:29.200 expansion of the church, the expansion part has been removed from online church entirely. And now 00:08:29.200 --> 00:08:35.520 we're looking just at online, how do we continue to grow our online community and how do we get them 00:08:35.520 --> 00:08:39.920 in, uh, how do we get them in groups? How do they get the fullness of the church, no matter where they 00:08:39.920 --> 00:08:45.520 are, whether that's, um, small groups, um, weddings, funerals, baptisms, the whole bit. 00:08:45.520 --> 00:08:53.760 So with, with moving away, um, in Ohio, you know, Miami is a very, where, where Ray and I are, 00:08:53.760 --> 00:08:59.680 it's a very, uh, transitional area. People are here for a number of months and then they leave. 00:08:59.680 --> 00:09:04.400 Like people, people don't stay in Miami. They're just constantly cycling through internationally. 00:09:04.400 --> 00:09:12.560 Even, um, is, is there a lot of people who are moving away? Is there a cyclical nature in Ohio and 00:09:12.560 --> 00:09:17.600 Cincinnati area as well? Did you find yourself transitioning beyond just the moving away people 00:09:17.600 --> 00:09:21.040 to kind of build a micro? What, what, what, what's been your experience? 00:09:21.040 --> 00:09:27.520 Sure. Not, there's not nearly as much transition as a city like Miami, for sure. But we have several 00:09:27.520 --> 00:09:33.200 large corporations in Cincinnati. Uh, Procter and Gamble is one of them. Uh, Toyota was here for a 00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:40.880 while. So as people transferred or promoted or moved out of the city to other areas of the country, 00:09:40.880 --> 00:09:47.120 they wanted to bring their church with them. Let me back up a little bit. The launch of Crossroads 00:09:47.120 --> 00:09:54.640 online church, which we call Crossroads anywhere came out of a financial campaign that happened five or so 00:09:54.640 --> 00:10:01.520 years ago. So it was this vision that was cast for this online infrastructure and a way for people to 00:10:01.520 --> 00:10:05.920 connect with the church and be part of the church, no matter where they are, that got a lot of people 00:10:05.920 --> 00:10:11.920 fired up. So as they were moving, this thing was top of mind for them to say, Hey, I want to be a part of 00:10:11.920 --> 00:10:17.520 this. I would love to be able to introduce people, uh, friends, neighbors, coworkers in the place where 00:10:17.520 --> 00:10:18.800 I end up professionally. 00:10:18.800 --> 00:10:26.080 And that kind of, that kind of leads to it. This is really interesting because typically pre COVID 00:10:27.200 --> 00:10:34.240 a conversation like this would go with a senior pastor. Hey, if somebody's moving, I want them to 00:10:34.240 --> 00:10:39.920 go plug in and be part of a perceived church, a physical church where they're going. I don't want 00:10:39.920 --> 00:10:46.080 them to hold on to the past. I want them to, you know, experience it and get connected into a physical 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:51.920 location there, you know, and I don't, I disagree with that. And I see how the micro location is an 00:10:51.920 --> 00:10:56.320 opportunity to, to extend the influence and to create a new community where maybe there wasn't, 00:10:56.320 --> 00:11:01.440 this is a great opportunity to do something different. I'm just wondering. And so, like you said, 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:05.920 the, the capital campaign was five years ago. You've been there like four and a half. So you were 00:11:05.920 --> 00:11:11.920 kind of in the midst of some of that conversation. What's been the leadership transition to, to allow 00:11:11.920 --> 00:11:16.880 them to maybe look at creating a new community instead of, okay, once those people move, they're, 00:11:16.880 --> 00:11:23.600 they're really not my problem anymore. Like any leadership transition, um, it's slow. Uh, 00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:31.120 we are blessed with some phenomenal leaders at Crossroads, uh, that have an incredible amount of 00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:38.960 bravery to take a step towards something new, even though it means potentially jeopardizing a thing 00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:48.160 that is good and healthy and growing. So as an example for what some of those steps that we had to go 00:11:48.160 --> 00:11:54.560 through as a church community, uh, let's look at something that's bread and butter. Let's look at weekend 00:11:54.560 --> 00:12:03.680 attendance, butts in seats in a physical building. As we matured and grew our online services and our online 00:12:03.680 --> 00:12:12.640 presence, it became easy for me, not necessarily me, although it could be anybody to wake up on a Sunday 00:12:12.640 --> 00:12:18.560 morning and be like, you know what? I have a scratchy throat and my bathrobe is really comfortable. 00:12:18.560 --> 00:12:26.000 I can just watch online, which is great. But the implication of that is that if a bunch of people 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:31.040 do it at once and your weekend attendance in the building starts to drop, there's some tension that 00:12:31.040 --> 00:12:39.200 immediately comes to the front, uh, and navigating that understanding that you're not cannibalizing your, 00:12:40.720 --> 00:12:51.680 your church. You're just offering a new, a new way to attend that, um, doesn't necessarily have any intrinsic 00:12:51.680 --> 00:12:57.680 advantage over the other. Uh, and, and that there's a lot of things that needed to be worked through and 00:12:57.680 --> 00:13:04.880 needed to be changed. And, uh, as many perspectives and as many viewpoints as we have people on staff to, 00:13:04.880 --> 00:13:11.760 to navigate all those things. So it's, it's easy when you're, when you're, um, doing something as big 00:13:11.760 --> 00:13:18.240 as an organizational shift away from a tried and true model to have something like online church be 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:24.880 demonized because it is, it's pulling people away. It's, it's bad. Uh, it's changing things that are good 00:13:24.880 --> 00:13:30.960 and healthy. Um, but because of, I think the vision that a lot of our senior leaders had at Crossroads, 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:38.080 we were able to maintain, uh, and continue to take ground and start to understand that there are a 00:13:39.280 --> 00:13:46.160 myriad of ways that you can interact with a church on a weekly basis that, um, bring people fullness 00:13:46.160 --> 00:13:52.080 and life and inspiration and challenge and all the things that, that people are looking for and need 00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:57.760 from, from that weekly, uh, interaction, whether it is a service that you're watching on Sunday or an 00:13:57.760 --> 00:14:03.040 on-demand stream that is available to you on a Tuesday night. Greg, I think a lot of our folks 00:14:03.040 --> 00:14:06.560 are probably going to listen to that and say, man, that's a dream. I wish I could get my leaders to 00:14:06.560 --> 00:14:12.560 see things the way that your leaders have kind of come to what's the clear win that they see both 00:14:12.560 --> 00:14:16.800 whether in a physical space or in a digital space that they're willing to put a lot of that on the 00:14:16.800 --> 00:14:22.320 back burner and say, this is our clear win. And as long as this happens, we feel comfortable 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:27.360 whether they're watching online or whether their butts in a seat. Um, let's talk about the, let's 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:33.680 talk about the really easy one, first of all. Um, and that's giving. If you can, um, make a big 00:14:33.680 --> 00:14:39.680 transition, whether it is because you want to move to online or because a pandemic forces you to move 00:14:39.680 --> 00:14:46.080 online and you see that the engagement from your givers doesn't drop. Um, in fact, it is, 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:52.800 it's something that steady, you know, that you're still winning in a lot of ways. Um, that is made 00:14:52.800 --> 00:14:57.760 more complicated now because then, you know, there's a lot of people who are out of work or lost jobs or 00:14:57.760 --> 00:15:03.680 are reduced employment. So it's difficult. Uh, but by and large, um, that can be a decent barometer of 00:15:03.680 --> 00:15:13.280 where you are. The other thing, um, that worked for us is modifying the way that you count. 00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:21.920 So, uh, let me take, uh, let me take us back to when we first started changing how we talked about 00:15:21.920 --> 00:15:26.080 attendance. Uh, because attendance is a really easy apples to apples number where you can see, 00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:30.080 hey, um, this week and this week there was an increase or there was a decrease or whatever. 00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:38.160 So when we first started, um, looking at attendance, we would look at the number of people who were in 00:15:38.160 --> 00:15:44.400 a seat and that's like one number. And then we started by looking at an online service and we 00:15:44.400 --> 00:15:51.040 looked at the amount of concurrent connections for the middle 40 minutes of a service saying that for 00:15:51.040 --> 00:15:55.520 the middle 40 minutes of any service, this is the amount of, of people that were watching 00:15:55.520 --> 00:16:02.640 and then the average of that number we could confidently say was a single person who had 00:16:02.640 --> 00:16:08.480 seen the majority of the service. And then we put that together and called that attendance. 00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:12.960 And that was a big step forward from saying like connection count, which is always like an 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:17.760 astronomical number. It's, uh, because people drop and IP addresses switch and all that crazy stuff 00:16:17.760 --> 00:16:22.080 happens. So it's, you know, 400,000 or something ridiculous, which is not the amount of people who 00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:28.160 were there. So we were able to parse that into something that felt similar to attendance. And 00:16:28.160 --> 00:16:34.320 we've matured, uh, uh, we've matured the way we count a lot since then. Uh, but that was the, 00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:42.560 that was another win that we gave someone a metric that felt familiar enough to say that it was successful. 00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:50.320 Um, so that's another one. The other thing when your church does a program or a group or a push for 00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:56.800 push for something big and you know, the amount of engagement that you are typically, uh, expecting to get 00:16:57.440 --> 00:17:04.560 the engagement in, in the things that we did, whether it was groups or serving events or, or like a, um, 00:17:05.280 --> 00:17:11.200 a neighborhood reach out improvement thing. Uh, I'm trying to put it in plain language as opposed to the 00:17:11.200 --> 00:17:17.520 branded stuff that we all do. Um, seeing that that engagement didn't dip or seeing that that engagement 00:17:17.520 --> 00:17:22.960 increased or being able to trace the people who decided that they wanted to join a group or do a 00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:29.040 serving project or join a volunteer team to folks that engaged, um, chiefly online. That was another win. 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:36.720 And then specifically for the place where I'm from, um, our culture is dictated by individual story. 00:17:37.360 --> 00:17:43.840 So for the longest time, um, there's a guy on, on staff named Matt and he talked about, 00:17:43.840 --> 00:17:49.200 we were learning to fly a plane and for the longest time we would look out the window and be able to 00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:55.360 see the horizon and we see the hills and we, uh, are flying the plane that way. Uh, and all of a sudden 00:17:55.360 --> 00:17:59.680 the plane is too big and we're flying too far and we need to learn to fly via instrumentation. 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:04.320 So we can't see the ground anymore. We can't see all the people that are connecting online. 00:18:04.320 --> 00:18:07.840 We can't see the people that are in the buildings because of scale and the number of problems that 00:18:07.840 --> 00:18:12.880 that, that, uh, introduces. So now we're looking at instrumentation. So we're looking at engagement 00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:17.440 in the programs we do. We're looking at giving, we're looking at our, our changed attendance metrics, 00:18:18.080 --> 00:18:23.920 which is all good. And in the midst of all of it, highlighting individual story of life change 00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:30.240 does wonders, uh, for your culture, uh, for making those transitional changes, not only for leadership, 00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:37.280 but for the staff and for the people on the ground. So being able to harvest and find stories of, 00:18:37.280 --> 00:18:46.880 um, I mean, uh, the, a couple of years ago, there was, uh, a woman who lived probably three miles 00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:53.280 from one of our largest campuses, who had never stepped foot in a building ever, who was shared the 00:18:53.280 --> 00:19:01.600 digital service from a friend, did a online small group series that we did. And at the culmination 00:19:01.600 --> 00:19:07.840 of that online small group, she decided that she wanted to be baptized and came to the building for 00:19:07.840 --> 00:19:15.360 the first time to be baptized. So stories like that, um, show how the two, uh, systems can be 00:19:15.360 --> 00:19:21.760 completely symbiotic. And it's really important to keep those stories top of mind and keep telling 00:19:21.760 --> 00:19:26.480 those stories of success that shows how everybody, regardless if you work on the digital side or the 00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:32.720 physical side or the combination thereof, um, are all pulling in the same direction. And there are 00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:38.640 stories of profound change because of it stories give us an opportunity to cast vision to celebrate 00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:44.560 what's happening. And, and, and I love that analogy of, um, we can't fly off the horizon at this point. 00:19:44.560 --> 00:19:50.720 We have to like fall back on our, our instruments and the data we're seeing because we've scaled beyond 00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:56.800 what our eyes can physically see. Uh, that's, that's great. What other there, I'm sure there are other 00:19:56.800 --> 00:20:01.840 challenges as you were building a micro, uh, location, by the way, what is, is what's, 00:20:01.840 --> 00:20:06.800 what's the language? What is your term for that? Is it a home gathering? I don't just saddleback watch 00:20:06.800 --> 00:20:13.280 party. Like what do you call the actual units, uh, at Crossroads? Um, it's an interesting question 00:20:13.280 --> 00:20:23.440 because it's recently changed. Okay. New branding. Yay. Yeah. Um, we, we, right now we are actually 00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:31.760 hitting, um, a pause button on the creation of new micro sites as they were. Um, we discovered, 00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:38.640 through a lot of things that we tried and a lot of things that worked and didn't work that it is 00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:48.880 very difficult for an organic growth of a movement of people within a city, uh, to get to a point where 00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:53.760 there are people who are meeting in a house, which we would call them watch parties to invite enough 00:20:53.760 --> 00:20:58.800 people to have critical mass to move into a rented facility. And honestly, we would just call those like 00:20:58.800 --> 00:21:02.320 like a Crossroads site, but they're in a rented facility. Um, a lot of people would call those 00:21:02.320 --> 00:21:07.840 like micros. Um, and then from there have enough mass to move to something that's a little bit more 00:21:07.840 --> 00:21:16.880 permanent. That happened in, um, one, uh, and I think four, four different, uh, locations, uh, around 00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:22.400 the country. Um, but it, it is fraught with challenges because there's a lot of things that 00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:29.200 need to be, um, unlearned and then relearned and, and, um, all that good stuff. Um, but that's, uh, 00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:33.840 that's a long answer to your question of what do we call the things. Uh, but right now we have, uh, 00:21:33.840 --> 00:21:38.560 an online community that is very clear that this is a great way to interact with the church. We can get 00:21:38.560 --> 00:21:44.560 you connected to people and all that good stuff, but we are not looking at planting a physical site 00:21:44.560 --> 00:21:49.840 right now. And then we have our physical sites, which a number of them are buildings that were 00:21:49.840 --> 00:21:54.160 either constructed or repurposed that we're in full time. And then a handful of them are rented 00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:58.960 facilities that, um, are a little bit smaller. Uh, but they do set up tear down every week. 00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:02.640 The language that you're describing with the difficulty, you're not the first church to come 00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:10.320 on this podcast and say that, um, Elevation Church kind of paused their, um, micro, I believe, uh, 00:22:10.320 --> 00:22:16.880 talking with, um, oh man, Danny Hicks. Danny Hicks. Yeah. Yeah. And so Dan, Danny was like, 00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:22.960 hey, like we're doing the actual small gatherings, these watch parties, but we're not promising 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:27.680 anything about building a location. Jay Cranda is similar at Saddleback saying the same thing. 00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:33.120 They're working on their third strategy, uh, at this point of, of micro location. And, and this 00:22:33.120 --> 00:22:39.680 one is far more organic about just being an individual discipling and reaching their circle 00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:45.840 of influence as opposed to saying, hey, we're going to grow campuses out of this, this micro location. 00:22:45.840 --> 00:22:51.840 And so I think, you know, what you're describing is, is having your focus, having the direction 00:22:51.840 --> 00:22:56.720 established where, hey, we're not going to call this campus six eventually, but you have an 00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:03.120 opportunity to, to disciple your circle of influence and create other disciple makers that can reach 00:23:03.120 --> 00:23:08.160 their circle of influence. I think that's a, that's a much safer goal here, at least in 2020, 00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:15.920 especially in this COVID season. Absolutely. Uh, and we, we went so far as to, um, encourage those 00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:21.440 who were meeting for a watch party where you get together, watch the weekend, do the thing, um, 00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:26.240 that if you only have a certain amount of hours to spend in the week doing, um, something that is 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:32.880 church to watch the service on your own, then get together with your people to have a discussion about 00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:38.640 what's going on there, what's going on in your life, share a meal together, man. Like whether I was doing 00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:44.880 online church micro sites or small groups, um, getting people to sit around the table and have a meal is a 00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:53.200 win, like hands down. Uh, and that is something that it even has translated well digitally, where we have 00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:59.680 groups of people that meet online, um, around dinner time and have those discussions. Then, um, it's, 00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:04.720 it's kind of miraculous what happens when, when you put those, those different elements in play. 00:24:05.840 --> 00:24:11.760 Is it weird to eat in front of people on zoom? I, I find it weird. I actually had this conversation 00:24:11.760 --> 00:24:16.480 with Jason Morris at a West side family. Cause he's like, you cannot break bread online. It's 00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:20.400 weird when you eat food in front of a, and I'll go ahead. Talk to me, Greg. 00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:24.400 So like if I was eating right now, it would be the weirdest thing in the world. But as long as you 00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:28.640 set the expectation going in that like, we're going to have a shared meal together, uh, and we're just 00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:32.560 going to have discussion. Like it works really well because then if there's like eight people, 00:24:32.560 --> 00:24:37.120 nine people, 30 people on the call, most of you aren't going to be talking anyway. Um, 00:24:37.120 --> 00:24:41.120 so you can pass conversation around there. It's all about, it's all about expectation. I think, 00:24:41.120 --> 00:24:45.200 I mean, I could be totally wrong and eventually you're going to have the guy who's just chewing 00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:50.080 directly into his microphone, but you know what? It works. That's where I'm going to be a Pharisee 00:24:50.080 --> 00:24:54.320 here. I think it has to do with etiquette. All right. I think it's just got to do with how loud 00:24:54.320 --> 00:25:00.160 they cue and how open their mouth is and what's going on with the experience. Cause if you feel 00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:04.480 like you're in a 40 experience where stuff's coming at you as they're chewing, I think that's where the 00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:06.800 whole thing falls apart. That's fair. 00:25:06.800 --> 00:25:11.520 But yeah, but as far as that's concerned, and this is what's funny, right? Like there's rules of 00:25:11.520 --> 00:25:16.880 community, right? Like within, within any given space, right? Like some people would be offended 00:25:16.880 --> 00:25:20.720 if you brought your food to in-person small group while we're having a Bible study here. 00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:24.320 Whereas I'm, I'm totally cool with it. Like when people would come to our house and they were like, 00:25:24.320 --> 00:25:28.160 man, Ray, you know, we're just getting in and we haven't eaten yet. Now I'm like, man, eat away. 00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:32.080 We're going to keep having group. It doesn't matter. And I think, I think that's where there's, 00:25:32.080 --> 00:25:36.640 there's shared kind of an understanding in terms of what's allowed and what's not allowed. Is that 00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:40.400 fair to say in terms of, and even with micro locations, right? Like they would vary in terms of 00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:44.880 culture to culture, place to place in terms of what's allowed and what's not allowed. Right. 00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:50.960 Yep. Regardless of whether we're talking like micros or, or, uh, small groups or any program that you're 00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:56.720 doing, what I've found, uh, is that there's two things that need to be set in people's minds before 00:25:56.720 --> 00:26:02.080 they get there. And it's, it's setting proper expectations. So the first question of two 00:26:02.080 --> 00:26:06.080 questions that anybody asks, if they're going to join anything that has any sort of social component 00:26:06.080 --> 00:26:10.160 is what is it going to be like, and what is it going to cost me? So what is it going to be like, 00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:14.320 um, is there going to be food? Are people going to be weird? Am I going to be the only one who doesn't know 00:26:14.320 --> 00:26:20.400 the unwritten rules, all that good stuff? Um, we found that whether it was a small group 00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:26.880 or, uh, that met either in person or out in the world, one of the first things that, uh, people did 00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:31.680 when they joined the group is they would stalk the person on Facebook and then they would Google map 00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:36.000 their house. They want to set expectations about what is it going to be like. And the second one that 00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:39.840 they want to know is what is it going to cost me? Um, yes, there may be a physical cost if you're 00:26:39.840 --> 00:26:44.240 like signing up for a program or something like that, but it's also what's the time investment, 00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:49.120 what opportunities am I saying no to? So I could be part of this thing. So anything to set those 00:26:49.120 --> 00:26:55.840 expectations, whether it's a meal online or, or sitting down to watch a service online, uh, 00:26:55.840 --> 00:26:59.120 anything you do to set those expectations really, really clearly is a win. 00:26:59.120 --> 00:27:05.520 You're interesting, Greg, because you've really danced on two sides of, of the same coin of where 00:27:05.520 --> 00:27:10.480 you're trying to do discipleship to motivate people to do this priesthood of believers, 00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:16.960 this micro micro location house church type of movement. But you've also played the other side 00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:22.640 of the coin, which is more of a, uh, growing and creating biblical community and from central 00:27:23.360 --> 00:27:29.040 services, trying to help people understand that to create, you know, small groups. And, and a lot of 00:27:29.040 --> 00:27:35.760 times when we try to explain what the, at least I do, when I try to explain what, what a house church is 00:27:35.760 --> 00:27:42.560 in a micro location, people are like, oh, you mean a small group and I'm like, well, at least in the 00:27:42.560 --> 00:27:48.080 context that you're meeting in a house with people. Yes. But operationally, I feel like it's, it's a lot 00:27:48.080 --> 00:27:52.640 different. Do you feel that tension of where it's, it's two different things, priesthood of believers 00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:57.600 versus leave it leading a small group or like, how do you reconcile that? Or maybe even how do you 00:27:57.600 --> 00:28:02.160 explain that when you try to explain the differences to people or is it more similar to you? 00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:11.280 Um, I, I think there's, there's differences. Um, we use a, um, we use a analogy or a teaching tool 00:28:11.280 --> 00:28:18.560 where we call, um, it's, it's up in and out. And if you have, uh, a balance between up in and out, 00:28:18.560 --> 00:28:24.480 I'll talk about those in just a second. Then I would say that you are more operating as a cell 00:28:25.040 --> 00:28:31.520 of priesthood of believers as opposed to a, just a small group, which are great. Don't get me wrong. 00:28:31.520 --> 00:28:38.000 I'm pro small group, but generally they don't have an out component. So let me explain. Um, up is a 00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:42.640 connection to, it's a connection to God. It's a connection to, uh, things that you are doing 00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:50.720 together to orient yourself towards the divine, um, which is, it's great. Uh, in is a focus internally 00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:57.200 and a building of relationship and fellowship and all the ships with the people who are in the group. 00:28:57.200 --> 00:29:05.360 And then out is a conscious, uh, moving and a conscious interaction with people who don't know the gospel. 00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:10.320 And if you have all three of those, a connection to God, a deep connection with each other 00:29:10.320 --> 00:29:17.440 and a connection with people who, um, don't yet know who God is, I would say that is more a 00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:25.200 home church priesthood of believers, whatever you want to call it, that has, uh, probably a mission 00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:31.600 and have people who they are thinking about praying for trying to serve, um, who aren't members of the 00:29:31.600 --> 00:29:38.240 church. Generally what I found, and this is a big generalization is the, the small group, which again 00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:42.800 is great, just has the up and the end. It's a connection with God and connection with each other. 00:29:42.800 --> 00:29:48.480 And that is really good and probably healthy. And a ton of growth comes from it and making sure that 00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:53.600 there's a spiritual component of a, of a time that you get together is, is really, really important. 00:29:53.600 --> 00:29:59.280 But what I've found is they are generally missing a outward facing component or that interaction with 00:29:59.280 --> 00:30:06.080 people, um, who don't believe. And that's how I make the distinction between the two. 00:30:06.080 --> 00:30:09.840 How have you guys gone about just culturally, just kind of thinking through, 00:30:09.840 --> 00:30:15.120 okay, we're in these digital communities. How are we thinking of outsiders? Because even a lot of 00:30:15.120 --> 00:30:20.320 digital church, if we're not careful, it can be very insider focused too. Like just caring for the 00:30:20.320 --> 00:30:24.480 church, especially in this season, as opposed to thinking through how we're reaching people as well. 00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:27.520 If I were to tell you that I had answers for this season, I would be a hundred percent lying. 00:30:27.920 --> 00:30:31.920 Um, we're figuring that out as we go. Nobody's got answers. Don't worry about that. Keep going. 00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:34.240 Nobody does. The government don't have answers. Nobody's got answers. 00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:41.760 Nobody's got answers. But what we, what we like to do in terms of the, the, um, equipping or training 00:30:41.760 --> 00:30:50.000 of leaders or groups of people to have an impact. Um, there is a, a set of content that we put together 00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:56.400 that, um, I think is pretty solid. Uh, even though like, anyway, it's a set of content that we put 00:30:56.400 --> 00:31:04.240 together that helps people think about the mission that their group is on. Um, we don't necessarily 00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:09.520 dictate that you must do X, Y, or Z. I mean, we have general guidelines in place around, Hey, 00:31:09.520 --> 00:31:13.280 if you're going to meet with a small group, it's decent to make sure that you touch base at least 00:31:13.280 --> 00:31:17.040 every other week, uh, once a month at minimum. So you can start creating those relationships. But, 00:31:17.040 --> 00:31:22.720 um, if you're ready to take it to the next level, uh, we have, uh, uh, this set of content that you go 00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:28.320 through, which it's, it's called the four Ps. It's people, purpose, passion, and potential. 00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:34.160 Uh, and I'll unpack each one of them briefly. And it's a five week journey that you go 00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:38.640 on and you look at each one of those based on the people who are around you. And this works, 00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:42.080 whether you're talking about digital or whether you're talking about in person. 00:31:42.080 --> 00:31:46.000 So the people is a deep dive on who are the people around you? What are their gifts? What, 00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:52.480 um, uh, how are they wired? Uh, you can talk about personality, things like that. Um, looking at 00:31:52.480 --> 00:31:57.360 fivefold ministry. Um, if you're into that sort of thing, do you have, uh, shepherds, teachers, 00:31:57.360 --> 00:32:02.160 apostles, prophets, evangelists around you? Um, that's good to take an inventory of who you are. 00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:08.240 The next one is passions. So what is it that make those people tick? What are their holy discontent? 00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:14.480 What is the thing that something is, is inside them that they want to make a change in the world 00:32:14.480 --> 00:32:20.240 and then in the, in their neighborhood, in their life, uh, uh, all that good stuff. Uh, next one is 00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:26.400 problems. So very, very simply, uh, if you're in a neighborhood or online, it's what do you like 00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:30.160 about where you are and what would you want to change? So you don't want to, you don't want to 00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:34.320 let it go negative, but you want to see where is there a place for impact that you want to make a 00:32:34.320 --> 00:32:40.880 change, uh, in your community and understanding that online that may be dispersed and it may be 00:32:40.880 --> 00:32:45.200 different for each person. But the, the thing that I've discovered as you get into these conversations 00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:51.600 is that, um, miraculously there seems to be overlap and almost every group that goes through it. And 00:32:51.600 --> 00:32:56.720 the last one is potential. And I think that is key. Uh, potential isn't necessarily the potential 00:32:56.720 --> 00:33:04.320 impact that your group can make. It's more taking the time prayerfully to see where God is already 00:33:04.320 --> 00:33:10.160 moving, uh, whether it's in your life or in your neighborhood or in the relationships that you have, 00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:16.240 and then aligning with where that momentum has already been started as opposed to, you know, 00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:21.200 starting it on your own, starting the boulder up the hill through sheer force of will. It's that, 00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:26.960 that last thing, that potential where you, you look to see where progress is already being made and 00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:34.160 then aligning yourself to it. That is key for a lot of groups to figure out what their, what their mission 00:33:34.160 --> 00:33:43.920 is. So we are super low control, uh, in terms of what our groups do, the missions that they have, 00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:49.440 all that sort of thing. Uh, but we try to give them the things that they need to do so that they can 00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:54.080 figure out the thing that God may be calling either the whole group or individual members to it, 00:33:54.080 --> 00:33:57.920 and then have that conversation where they say it out loud so they can have some accountability and 00:33:57.920 --> 00:34:02.400 some movement. We had Ed Stetzer on. And I mentioned that earlier in the podcast, we had Ed on. Um, 00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:09.120 and, and I know one of the questions that Ray really loved in that is Ed was literally describing like 00:34:09.120 --> 00:34:16.320 a discipleship process. And Ed was talking about how true discipleship really needs to be a third thing. 00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:21.440 It's not the church service. It's not the small groups. It's at least in Ed's opinion. Uh, 00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:27.120 it was, it was a third time, a third event. Ed was leaning more towards a Sunday night service, 00:34:27.120 --> 00:34:30.880 which seems weird to me. And so like, I would, we look at it differently, but anyway, 00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:36.080 it was like, it was a third thing, your four piece that you just rattled off here. That was really 00:34:36.080 --> 00:34:43.760 good and really intentional and very like, I love the intentionality from that. Do you integrate that? 00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:49.440 Does Crossroads integrate that into all of the small groups or is that something that you're pulling 00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:55.120 people out and, and, and kind of reinforcing that in, in a third thing, like what's, 00:34:55.120 --> 00:34:57.120 what's kind of your method here with that? 00:34:57.120 --> 00:35:02.800 There's a lot of small groups that don't necessarily have any sort of missional drive, 00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:08.880 um, or the idea that they would want to interact with, or, or have an outward facing component. 00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:14.320 And I'm not here to, you know, force anybody to do anything that they're not ready to, or they 00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:19.520 don't want to, yes, I want to challenge people and yes, I want them to grow. Um, but we haven't had 00:35:19.520 --> 00:35:24.560 a lot of success if we push people in that direction. So what we do for our small groups 00:35:24.560 --> 00:35:30.080 in terms of generating culture and going in that direction is we have a couple of events that 00:35:30.080 --> 00:35:35.040 happen every year where we, where we, um, intentionally invest in our small group leaders. 00:35:35.040 --> 00:35:40.000 Uh, one of them happens at their site where we get everybody together and we do one, uh, digitally. 00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:49.200 So we have a, um, uh, a digital summit through Facebook on our online leader Facebook group that 00:35:49.200 --> 00:35:53.840 we have, uh, which is the same content that we would have at regular sites. And then we have one 00:35:53.840 --> 00:35:58.400 large scale gathering where we bring all of our small group leaders together in one location. And 00:35:58.400 --> 00:36:05.120 that includes our online people. Um, we will encourage them to make the trip. Um, we have, uh, 00:36:05.120 --> 00:36:10.160 figured out ways to help them out with either travel or hotel or accommodations or staying with 00:36:10.160 --> 00:36:15.120 family members that are around here. And by that, I mean, church family members, um, to get everybody 00:36:15.120 --> 00:36:19.440 in the same place. And those are where we hit the bigger rocks. The thing that I was talking about 00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:27.600 in terms of the four P's, the passion problem, people and potential, um, is where we, where we lead people 00:36:27.600 --> 00:36:35.360 towards so that if they want to have an impact with their group beyond, um, beyond what I would consider 00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:41.840 a normal small group type activity, that's where we, that's where we send them. And the people who opt 00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:46.000 into that, we'd like to be really, really close with, because those are the ones that are the 00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:50.720 movers and shakers and do some incredible stuff and have done some incredible stuff, even in the midst 00:36:50.720 --> 00:36:58.800 of this whole COVID-19 thing. You know, Greg, this is amazing. Um, when you guys are identifying 00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:03.280 people like the right kind of people that you want to start this, like, what are some of the qualities 00:37:03.280 --> 00:37:09.040 that you're looking for? Because as we look towards a future where this is possibly like the way or part 00:37:09.040 --> 00:37:13.520 of the way that we lead towards reopening towards spaces or whatever else, you know, even for churches 00:37:13.520 --> 00:37:18.400 that are a little bit against like micro locations, but they're like, oh, but we're probably going to 00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:22.960 have to do that at least to get there. What are you, what are you guys looking for in terms of the 00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:27.200 person or the people who lead? Um, I would love to be able to give you like, hey, here are the three 00:37:27.200 --> 00:37:34.960 bullets of what makes a great leader, but it really is going to depend on, um, the group, the mission 00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:41.600 and the calling that that group or that person has. It's really a person who understands their 00:37:41.600 --> 00:37:48.240 giftings and understands their outages. So let me give you an example and I'll just use the example 00:37:48.240 --> 00:37:55.680 is going to be me. Um, I am, I'm a crap evangelist and by that it means I don't have any problem talking 00:37:55.680 --> 00:38:00.160 to somebody about Jesus or sharing my faith with somebody. It means that as soon as I have a good 00:38:00.160 --> 00:38:07.360 experience, whether it is listening to a podcast or a great meal, my brain goes, okay, I'm onto the next 00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:12.240 one. What's next? I don't think to tell anybody about it. It's just a deficiency and how I think, 00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:20.160 but, um, I am pretty strong when it comes to shepherding. Uh, I'm decent when it comes to teaching 00:38:20.160 --> 00:38:27.120 and I like to start new stuff. So when somebody becomes, uh, when somebody applies to be a group 00:38:27.120 --> 00:38:31.920 leader, because you have to apply to be a group leader, uh, we take them through a pretty brief, 00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:37.920 but I think pretty solid vetting process where, um, we have a, either a phone conversation or an 00:38:37.920 --> 00:38:41.120 in-person conversation or a video conversation, no matter where you are, we'll make it work. 00:38:41.120 --> 00:38:45.280 Uh, and we ask some questions about your vision for the group. What are your giftings and things like 00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:52.560 that? And the people who do those interviews, um, are kind of keyed into hearing whether or not that 00:38:52.560 --> 00:38:58.320 person, uh, kind of understands who they are, how they're wired, what their vision is, and then makes 00:38:58.320 --> 00:39:03.920 those suggestions in that period of time on how to get started and may point them to some more 00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:10.240 challenging resources that can stretch them. Um, our whole thing at Crossroads is to make sure that, 00:39:11.040 --> 00:39:18.080 um, every person who comes through our digital or physical doors has the chance to interact 00:39:18.080 --> 00:39:24.400 with a guide that can understand them, can know them, and can help them take the right next step for 00:39:24.400 --> 00:39:32.320 them. And it's part of that guiding process that, um, we look and are on the lookout for some of those 00:39:32.320 --> 00:39:38.160 potential group leaders that could do something that is more outward focused, missional, impactful, 00:39:38.160 --> 00:39:41.600 um, and hopefully win people for Jesus. 00:39:42.400 --> 00:39:47.040 Did I understand that right? Cause I think that's, that's awesome. Um, in terms of looking for guides, 00:39:47.040 --> 00:39:51.840 do you then deploy the guides to interact with those first time guests with those folks? Like, 00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:57.040 is that an immediate thing or how does that work? Because that, that to me just sounds awesome in terms of, 00:39:57.040 --> 00:40:02.160 Hey, we've got people that we want them to help other people along this journey and we deploy them to do so. 00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:08.960 Um, yes, though. It's in its, uh, I wouldn't say in infancy, I would say it's in its toddler stages 00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:15.920 right now. Um, so like a lot of churches that are doing stuff online, um, you'll do a big Easter 00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:20.880 service and have tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people there. And then you immediately 00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:24.560 feel the pressure of like, Oh my gosh, I had a hundred thousand people watch my Easter service. 00:40:24.560 --> 00:40:27.040 How in the heck am I going to care for these hundred thousand people? 00:40:27.600 --> 00:40:35.600 Um, the thing that we are trying to do is make it phenomenally easy to come out of the anonymity 00:40:35.600 --> 00:40:40.720 of the online data, raise your hand to say, Hey, I want to be a part of this. I want to join something. 00:40:41.200 --> 00:40:46.880 Um, so like a lot of churches, we have a online chat that's staffed by actual living, breathing 00:40:46.880 --> 00:40:53.120 human beings, um, which is great. And as part of that, there is a find your fit. I think is what 00:40:53.120 --> 00:40:58.560 we call it survey that allows people to answer a couple of questions about themselves, what they're 00:40:58.560 --> 00:41:05.120 looking for, what questions they may have. Um, and then based on that, it gets sent out to all of our 00:41:05.120 --> 00:41:10.560 physical sites and digital sites. And then there is someone there, whether it is a staff member or a 00:41:10.560 --> 00:41:17.600 volunteer who fills that guide role at that point, they reach out to that person, um, have a conversation 00:41:17.600 --> 00:41:24.320 and then make suggestions on next steps based on, uh, what they answered or how the conversation goes. 00:41:24.320 --> 00:41:30.000 And that is, that's for a group leader or for, you know, just random individual who decides to 00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:33.760 raise their hand and wants to know more about how to be part of what's going on. 00:41:33.760 --> 00:41:38.560 Yeah. That right there is a piece that all of us, including myself, I think can kind of walk away 00:41:38.560 --> 00:41:43.920 with, with, wow, something as simple as giving people an entry relationship in terms of taking a next 00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:47.280 step. That's not something a whole lot of churches do anymore. I mean, Jeff and I come from a church 00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:51.440 that we, you know, we used to do something called first friends, which was like that relationship 00:41:51.440 --> 00:41:54.560 where we would stick with somebody for what Jeff, like seven or eight weeks. Right. 00:41:54.560 --> 00:41:58.640 Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was, uh, at least I want to think as high as a quarter, like three, 00:41:58.640 --> 00:42:02.880 three months worth of making sure they got connected into it. By the way, Ray, I don't know if you 00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:07.760 remember this when I, when I was at CF Miami, we, we actually instituted first friends for about, 00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:13.920 for about a year online. And so like we, we were utilizing, um, you know, some of that, 00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:18.560 that first up first step where the volunteers were the ones who were following up on and, 00:42:18.560 --> 00:42:25.280 and engaging and kind of walking them through that almost like a concierge type relationship where 00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:31.360 it's, you know, I'm, I'm not an automated, and I'm a, I'm a huge relational guy with online where, 00:42:31.360 --> 00:42:37.040 you know, I think chat bots are great. I think automated funnels are awesome, but give me a real 00:42:37.040 --> 00:42:42.160 life person who's having a conversation who gives a crap about who I am and is walking me through the 00:42:42.160 --> 00:42:48.320 process. I think there's huge value in that as well. So love, uh, love the crossroads is, is diving into 00:42:48.320 --> 00:42:54.480 that. Uh, just even as an aside, I would love if, if, can I get a copy of, of the find your fit survey? 00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:59.120 Is there a link or something we can put to it in the show notes? You just opened up a whole other really 00:42:59.120 --> 00:43:04.640 interesting sector, uh, to talk about because the hardest thing, and I've, and I've said this 00:43:04.640 --> 00:43:10.000 regularly, the hardest thing at all of church online is to pull people out of what I call church in 00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:15.760 isolation, where you have tens of, you have hundreds of thousands of people watching these services 00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:21.040 online. You know who they are. I quoted a church recently, Easter 2020 in this COVID season, they had 00:43:21.040 --> 00:43:24.560 over half a million people view their Easter service, how they were counting. I don't know how they were 00:43:24.560 --> 00:43:29.120 counting. It doesn't matter. They had half a million people viewing the service online or TV, 00:43:29.120 --> 00:43:34.000 and they only collected 11 connection cards. So obviously there, there's a disconnect. 00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:38.720 Um, you know, and I don't think there's a silver bullet, you know, and I'm not expecting, uh, Greg 00:43:38.720 --> 00:43:44.720 to release the secret sauce here of what crossroads is doing, but is there anything, uh, any tips, 00:43:44.720 --> 00:43:49.600 any tricks, any points in the right direction? Have you guys learned anything trying to discover who 00:43:49.600 --> 00:43:54.080 these people are? I think I, I think I'm going to answer that question by introducing another question, 00:43:54.080 --> 00:43:59.600 which is where, which is where I currently am in, in trying to figure that out and how to make it very 00:43:59.600 --> 00:44:05.520 easy and all, and, and appealing to come from anonymity to, I want to be part of this. I want to 00:44:05.520 --> 00:44:15.680 learn more. I want to meet people and make friends. I have been a part of groups at crossroads in some 00:44:15.680 --> 00:44:22.640 sort of either volunteer or staff or leadership capacity for, uh, I think six or seven years now. And aside 00:44:22.640 --> 00:44:33.040 from one brief moment that happened probably about six years ago, I have never seen us run into capacity 00:44:33.040 --> 00:44:40.720 issues, meaning that there are always places, there are always seats at the table. There are always 00:44:40.720 --> 00:44:47.120 things for you to join groups, to be a part of all that good stuff. In fact, it is much more common 00:44:47.120 --> 00:44:53.040 than, in my experience where I am, I'm not putting this on anybody else, for me to have a difficult 00:44:53.040 --> 00:44:59.840 conversation with a leader that feels as though they are failing because nobody wants to be part of 00:44:59.840 --> 00:45:06.320 their group, then have a difficult conversation with a, a tender who can't find a group for them. 00:45:07.600 --> 00:45:15.680 So all that to say, and this is the thing that I haven't figured out is that we don't have a capacity 00:45:15.680 --> 00:45:22.960 issue. We have a demand issue, meaning that that hundred thousand, five hundred thousand people who 00:45:22.960 --> 00:45:30.160 watched Easter don't yet have a felt need that says, Hey, I saw your service. This is amazing. I want to be 00:45:30.160 --> 00:45:36.160 best friends with you. I want to learn more. I want to connect more. And the question that I have is 00:45:36.800 --> 00:45:47.280 how do we continue to generate that demand at levels and at scale that is in relationship or in 00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:50.320 conjunction with the amount of people that are currently viewing service online? 00:45:50.320 --> 00:45:55.520 So you can take a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. I mean, that's yeah. Yeah. I don't 00:45:55.520 --> 00:46:02.640 know what to do with that. You're, you're not wrong. Um, I'm part of me, you know, uh, in the world 00:46:02.640 --> 00:46:08.000 of, I mean, part of that also gets to abiding and waiting for God and his timing in, in the world of 00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:15.680 Mary versus Martha, I am far Martha. I am not Mary. And so maybe, maybe there is a bit or a piece of 00:46:15.680 --> 00:46:20.320 that even to reconcile with man, way to play that card. You're making me like spiritually 00:46:20.320 --> 00:46:24.800 question myself right now. Thank you for that. That's exactly what I wanted to do on a podcast 00:46:24.800 --> 00:46:27.360 here this morning. So I'm glad I could help. I'm glad I could help. 00:46:28.720 --> 00:46:34.240 Good job, Greg. Love it. You know, I, I think there's, there's an opportunity for us. I, I, I, 00:46:34.240 --> 00:46:39.920 sometimes I look at the mirror, I look at it, the mirror image of it. And instead of trying to pull 00:46:39.920 --> 00:46:44.720 that, you know, the example of the church with the 500,000 and discover who those 500,000 people are, 00:46:44.720 --> 00:46:50.800 I think there's a very strong case of working with an individual and then letting that message 00:46:50.800 --> 00:46:55.360 spread and letting it spread instead of sometimes I think thinking big, you know, and this is one of 00:46:55.360 --> 00:46:59.280 the reasons why I love church online for small churches, because I think they have a stronger 00:46:59.280 --> 00:47:04.080 opportunity than the big churches because they're small, they're relational, and it's easier to scale 00:47:04.080 --> 00:47:10.560 small than it is big. Just that's on us though. Right. That's on us. Cause we fall in love more with 00:47:10.560 --> 00:47:15.600 acts too. Then we do with like Matthew three and four, right? Like just being honest, like my small 00:47:15.600 --> 00:47:18.880 group, we've been going through the book of acts. We've been talking about that. We've been kind of 00:47:18.880 --> 00:47:25.200 discussing about how, man, why is it that churches focus so much on the isolated incidences of 2000 00:47:25.200 --> 00:47:32.800 people, 3000 people coming to faith, as opposed to the moments where it's like, ah, three guys understand 00:47:32.800 --> 00:47:38.400 and get it. And those three guys just blitz and like change their community, you know, uh, or the 00:47:38.400 --> 00:47:42.880 woman at the well, right? Like a light bulb comes on for her. And then she goes back and her whole, 00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:50.720 her whole town is different because one person's eyes are illuminated. She gets it in a real authentic 00:47:50.720 --> 00:47:56.640 way. And then she goes back and her community has changed because she got it. Um, and I think that's 00:47:56.640 --> 00:48:01.760 on us too, in terms of like what we measure as the win. And even with church online, if the danger is 00:48:01.760 --> 00:48:06.240 looking at the crowd, as opposed to the individual, like you guys are saying, I think those are some 00:48:06.240 --> 00:48:10.400 things that we have to come back to the table and kind of reassess. Right. And it's, it's a hard truth. 00:48:10.400 --> 00:48:16.480 It's a hard thing maybe to hear our church methods, our church strategies, our stroke structure towards 00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:22.080 engage people in a weekend service, move them into small groups. If, if we actually do get them to 00:48:22.080 --> 00:48:28.160 third base, get them on mission or serving and then home plates mission, diamond triangle, whatever it 00:48:28.160 --> 00:48:34.160 is, you've got your strategy, but chances are that whole disciple making piece is like the last in your 00:48:34.160 --> 00:48:40.000 strategy, which is really ironic because it's the most important. And at least it's the most effective 00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:46.480 in letting you grow and create disciples, which is what we're called to, uh, in Matthew 28. Uh, 00:48:46.480 --> 00:48:52.800 so it's, it's just maybe looking at it differently, even, even for a season in this COVID season, 00:48:52.800 --> 00:49:01.520 um, the smallness, the individualness of the church spread across the, um, your, your city has 00:49:01.520 --> 00:49:06.800 maybe more power, I think than, than even we realize it's, it's not, even as we're looking, 00:49:06.800 --> 00:49:09.600 talking about going back to the building, let's not lose the fact 00:49:09.600 --> 00:49:15.040 the fact of the fact that our church is now disseminated and spread across by tens and 00:49:15.040 --> 00:49:20.320 hundreds of thousands, thousands of people across the city, which kind of leads me to this question. 00:49:20.320 --> 00:49:26.080 Let's, let's segue here. It's how can micro, how can house churches, as we're stair-stepping, 00:49:26.080 --> 00:49:32.080 like, how can that help, uh, in this, in this COVID season? Is there an opportunity, 00:49:32.080 --> 00:49:36.560 maybe not to the point of creating a campus. I don't think anybody's asking that, especially in this 00:49:36.560 --> 00:49:42.000 COVID season, but right now, what would a splintered, fractured church spread across 00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:46.400 the city, while we're stair-stepping back into the building, you know, what would that look like? 00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:54.720 It's a great question, um, and I think that there's a tremendous amount of potential in, 00:49:56.240 --> 00:50:00.000 regardless of whether or not your church is going to start stair-stepping back to the building as 00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:05.840 quick as possible, or they're deciding that they want to wait until 2021 to get back to the building. 00:50:05.840 --> 00:50:15.200 There is such a hunger for community to be known, to be heard, to be listened to. 00:50:16.240 --> 00:50:23.280 That is the mission that I think all of us are on, whether it's, it's members of your church or 00:50:23.280 --> 00:50:30.880 people who, who are neighbors of the members of your church. Um, and I think that more than really any 00:50:31.520 --> 00:50:38.560 group of people, uh, it's the people who are part of the church that can come and help those folks. 00:50:39.040 --> 00:50:44.800 Uh, isolation was a plague, uh, and I used that word intentionally even before this, 00:50:44.800 --> 00:50:50.480 this actual plague that we're in right now started. Um, so being able to 00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:59.280 speak to your people, speak to your leaders and let them know that, that for such a time as this, 00:51:00.320 --> 00:51:08.720 um, the church, uh, was made that there is a, a tremendous opportunity to impact more people 00:51:08.720 --> 00:51:17.360 at a greater scale that are more dispersed now than I think we have when we start going back to 00:51:17.360 --> 00:51:25.440 our buildings. So as a, like, as an analogy, um, that I stole from somebody who is smarter than me, 00:51:25.440 --> 00:51:33.520 who's named Scott, um, a lot of the times when we think about bringing people to church, um, we are 00:51:33.520 --> 00:51:39.200 thinking about a giant medieval castle that we're all standing inside of, and we all know the right 00:51:39.200 --> 00:51:43.920 things to do, and we all know the right things to say. And what we do is we lower the drawbridge, 00:51:43.920 --> 00:51:47.600 and we run out of the community, and we grab somebody, and we bring them back inside the 00:51:47.600 --> 00:51:52.080 castle, and then we cheer because we, we got somebody. And they said yes to Jesus, and this is 00:51:52.080 --> 00:51:58.960 amazing. What we're doing in that is we're asking that person who is coming into the castle to 00:51:58.960 --> 00:52:05.200 essentially be a missionary to us. They have to learn where to park their car. They have to learn 00:52:05.200 --> 00:52:10.160 when to stand up, when to sit down, where to get their coffee, what the check-in procedure is at your, 00:52:10.160 --> 00:52:18.160 your children's ministry. Um, right now in the midst of COVID, we have the opportunity to genuinely be 00:52:18.160 --> 00:52:24.400 missionaries to the neighborhoods and the people that we're in and among. Uh, and that's the thing 00:52:24.400 --> 00:52:34.640 that I think a dispersed, um, powerful network of individuals can do in a time like this. And it is, 00:52:34.640 --> 00:52:40.560 it's, it's, it's being physically present in the moment to care for and listen to those that are 00:52:40.560 --> 00:52:41.120 around you. 00:52:41.120 --> 00:52:47.440 So practical steps. If I wanted to, if I wanted to launch micro locations at my 00:52:48.160 --> 00:52:53.040 church, I already have a broadcast. Um, I'm, I'm, I'm a thousand person in church. I'm not going to be 00:52:53.040 --> 00:52:59.440 able to get back into my building for a while. Um, like how, what are some practical steps to help a 00:52:59.440 --> 00:53:07.840 micro exist at, at a, uh, at a church? Similar to what we were talking about earlier of spending time 00:53:07.840 --> 00:53:14.880 focusing on the individual more than the crowd. I mean, from my experience and in my opinion, that's it. 00:53:15.520 --> 00:53:22.160 If you know your people and you know, your, your volunteers, the people who, um, you've walked 00:53:22.160 --> 00:53:29.520 with for a long time, spending some time in prayer, thinking of, okay, who of those people, um, has the 00:53:29.520 --> 00:53:35.840 potential to either be a guide or a shepherd to others or can start something. And then having that, 00:53:35.840 --> 00:53:41.200 that conversation that, um, that Dave Ferguson calls the I see in you conversation, 00:53:41.200 --> 00:53:47.280 where you either face to face or mask to mask or screen to screen, however you want to do it, 00:53:47.280 --> 00:53:53.200 um, have the conversation that says, I see this potential in you. I think that you can do this. 00:53:53.200 --> 00:53:58.240 And then encouraging them to go away, talk to a trusted circle, pray about it, take it before God 00:53:58.240 --> 00:54:07.680 to say, um, do I, am I called to make this sort of impact? And whether you're a church of 20,000 or 200, 00:54:07.680 --> 00:54:13.600 I think I'd do the same step. And it's that individual conversation, that individual action, 00:54:13.600 --> 00:54:21.120 um, that is gonna, that can make a movement and can start things. I would also, as, as a leader of, of, 00:54:21.120 --> 00:54:28.560 of a church, take a little bit of comfort in the back half of Acts 2, which I know we, uh, Ray talked 00:54:28.560 --> 00:54:33.280 about earlier of, of something that we want to focus on where we talk to the 2000 and that they all come 00:54:33.280 --> 00:54:39.600 to faith. But the back half of that is that, um, God added to their number daily, those who are being 00:54:39.600 --> 00:54:47.040 saved. Um, so as you have those really, uh, important, I see in you conversations with leaders 00:54:47.040 --> 00:54:52.800 that you want to commission and challenge to go take new ground or have an impact to do simple, 00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:57.840 practical things in their city, like build a basketball hoop, take a little bit of comfort, 00:54:57.840 --> 00:55:04.960 encouragement that it's not necessarily on you or them, uh, to save people and to build the church. 00:55:04.960 --> 00:55:11.680 Uh, we own the obedience part of the equation. God owns the outcome. Um, and for me, that has been 00:55:11.680 --> 00:55:15.760 incredibly comforting at times where I'm beating my head against the wall to try and make something 00:55:15.760 --> 00:55:16.160 happen. 00:55:16.160 --> 00:55:20.800 Look at that disciple maker, look at that individual, empower them and unleash them. 00:55:20.800 --> 00:55:25.280 And what's interesting is their circle of influence is probably different than the circle of influence 00:55:25.280 --> 00:55:29.280 that you are reaching through your services. You may find yourself connecting with a whole other 00:55:29.280 --> 00:55:35.120 different set of people through a micro and things like this. So, um, that is awesome. Hey, 00:55:35.120 --> 00:55:41.520 this has been a great, great conversation. Greg, I appreciate the time. Ray, as we're landing the plane, 00:55:41.520 --> 00:55:47.200 any closing thoughts? Yeah, just, I think Greg, you just nailed it right there at the end. Um, 00:55:47.200 --> 00:55:50.800 in terms of focusing in on the individual. And I think, you know, for me, you've challenged me in 00:55:50.800 --> 00:55:55.520 a lot of ways in terms of how am I doing that? And am I doing that as well as I can, you know, 00:55:55.520 --> 00:56:00.400 everything from taking people from first time guests through next steps, through some of these different 00:56:00.400 --> 00:56:05.200 things. Um, as we look at the grand scheme of church online, and especially in this season, 00:56:05.200 --> 00:56:09.280 as churches have fallen in love with the numbers of views and the numbers, uh, you know, 00:56:09.280 --> 00:56:15.440 the big number side of it coming back to understanding that all that's nice, but if we're not helping 00:56:15.440 --> 00:56:21.200 individuals through their next step in the process, then the reality of it is, is whether we're in 00:56:21.200 --> 00:56:25.520 buildings where they're outside of buildings, whether we claim to have large or small gatherings, 00:56:26.080 --> 00:56:30.160 uh, we're not, we're not really discipling people, which is what the mission is supposed to be. 00:56:30.160 --> 00:56:34.960 And so I appreciate you helping bring that perspective. Yeah, this is, this has been an incredible 00:56:34.960 --> 00:56:38.720 conversation. Greg, as, as we're landing the plane, any closing thoughts? Yeah, I don't have 00:56:38.720 --> 00:56:42.720 anything, you know, pithy or wise to drop at the end. I feel like I should have wrote that out in 00:56:42.720 --> 00:56:48.160 advance, but, uh, I super appreciate the, the conversation. Uh, I hope this is helpful and I, 00:56:48.160 --> 00:56:50.880 I appreciate you guys having me on. No, this has been great. You hit it, 00:56:50.880 --> 00:56:54.640 you hit on, you hit on some topics. I wasn't even planning on hitting on with the whole 00:56:54.640 --> 00:56:59.520 church in, in isolation and that. And so that wasn't even on my radar. And you 00:56:59.520 --> 00:57:03.040 mentioned that in that early phrase and I was in that early kind of time and I was like, 00:57:03.040 --> 00:57:08.000 oh my gosh, that's so good. We got to come back to that. So thank you even, even for that. Um, 00:57:08.000 --> 00:57:12.720 by the way, we're going to add in this show notes, we'll add three or four topical questions for, 00:57:12.720 --> 00:57:18.480 for you guys, the listeners to, to, uh, address and maybe process with your, uh, with your staff 00:57:18.480 --> 00:57:24.400 and with your church. So check out the show notes. You'll find that there. But, uh, for Ray, 00:57:24.400 --> 00:57:29.200 for Greg, this is Jeff with the church digital and stadia church planning. Thanks for joining us. 00:57:29.200 --> 00:57:30.940 and we'll see you next time 00:57:30.940 --> 00:57:31.600 here at the podcast. 00:57:31.740 --> 00:57:32.180 Y'all have a good day.