WEBVTT 00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:02.620 Episode 85 of the Church Digital Podcast, 00:00:02.760 --> 00:00:04.300 powered by Stadia Church Planting. 00:00:04.860 --> 00:00:05.520 Jeff here. 00:00:05.620 --> 00:00:07.920 All right, I'm gonna love this podcast. 00:00:08.220 --> 00:00:09.100 I say that every time. 00:00:09.220 --> 00:00:10.300 Really need to find the new line. 00:00:10.440 --> 00:00:11.280 I say that every time. 00:00:11.540 --> 00:00:14.020 Really need to find a new line for that line. 00:00:14.440 --> 00:00:15.220 So here's where we are. 00:00:15.460 --> 00:00:18.320 We're bringing in Doug Parks into the conversation. 00:00:18.620 --> 00:00:21.520 Doug, Intentional Churches, by the way, we'll put a link. 00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:23.120 If you haven't read the book, phenomenal book. 00:00:23.720 --> 00:00:25.380 Organization, some of the things that they're doing 00:00:25.380 --> 00:00:28.160 with Intentional Churches, some really good stuff. 00:00:28.160 --> 00:00:31.620 Helping churches be, I don't know, intentional. 00:00:31.980 --> 00:00:34.780 If you kind of have come out of this simple church mentality, 00:00:34.860 --> 00:00:35.860 we talked with Eric Geiger, 00:00:36.340 --> 00:00:38.080 got a lot of Eric Geiger friends on here. 00:00:38.460 --> 00:00:40.280 Intentional Churches really builds off 00:00:40.280 --> 00:00:41.760 of some of that simple church mentality. 00:00:42.180 --> 00:00:43.800 And there's some really interesting things. 00:00:43.860 --> 00:00:45.800 We're gonna talk about it here in the podcast. 00:00:45.920 --> 00:00:49.160 Gonna say phrases like church OS and some things, 00:00:49.240 --> 00:00:52.240 starting to look at church as platform, 00:00:52.440 --> 00:00:56.480 which is really interesting because the church isn't a service. 00:00:56.480 --> 00:01:00.960 It's not a product of services as much as it is like 00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:05.640 an opportunity for others to do ministry. 00:01:05.940 --> 00:01:07.980 We're talking about like Airbnb. 00:01:08.540 --> 00:01:10.320 We're talking about Uber. 00:01:11.060 --> 00:01:14.200 You know, these are organizations that don't sell, 00:01:14.780 --> 00:01:15.960 don't drive cars. 00:01:16.100 --> 00:01:17.220 They don't do taxis. 00:01:17.580 --> 00:01:20.880 They don't rent properties that they own. 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:25.800 They crowdsource and they open it up to others to do the work. 00:01:25.920 --> 00:01:30.560 They provide a platform, a structure that allows for other people 00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:33.900 outside of the organization to do ministry. 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:35.760 Oh, I said ministry there. 00:01:35.800 --> 00:01:36.220 That's weird. 00:01:36.300 --> 00:01:37.220 That was like a Freudian slip. 00:01:37.380 --> 00:01:40.140 Because that's what I think the church is called to. 00:01:40.220 --> 00:01:43.420 And that's where I see really some of the excitement centered around 00:01:43.420 --> 00:01:44.880 the potential of church online, 00:01:44.880 --> 00:01:47.460 not when we broadcast our services, 00:01:47.460 --> 00:01:51.000 which may or may not even be effective in doing ministry, 00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:57.500 as much as we are empowering others with resources to do the ministry 00:01:57.500 --> 00:01:59.400 within their circle of influence. 00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:00.640 So you're going to hear, 00:02:00.720 --> 00:02:01.840 this is some radical stuff. 00:02:01.900 --> 00:02:02.600 This is crazy. 00:02:02.780 --> 00:02:05.120 Maybe, maybe it's crazy enough that it just might work. 00:02:05.160 --> 00:02:06.860 You're going to hear some interesting terms in here. 00:02:06.860 --> 00:02:10.700 You're going to hear terms like the one versus the 99. 00:02:11.460 --> 00:02:15.140 So the church, through evangelism, 00:02:15.220 --> 00:02:17.720 the Great Commission calls us to go after our one. 00:02:18.260 --> 00:02:21.060 This is the person, the people who are lost. 00:02:21.180 --> 00:02:23.120 We need to have that focus on the one. 00:02:23.400 --> 00:02:26.200 The 99 are the ones that are already attached. 00:02:26.340 --> 00:02:29.420 This is the parable, Jesus going after the one, 00:02:29.540 --> 00:02:31.660 leaving the 99 behind. 00:02:32.160 --> 00:02:35.100 There are a ton of podcasts that we've done on this, 00:02:35.100 --> 00:02:37.120 kind of all building up to this point. 00:02:37.580 --> 00:02:40.600 We're bringing in Craig, Whitney in the past, 00:02:40.740 --> 00:02:42.700 Tim Selleck has been great, Lee Coat. 00:02:42.940 --> 00:02:44.420 By the way, these are solid podcasts. 00:02:44.520 --> 00:02:46.520 We'll put links in the show notes towards them. 00:02:46.860 --> 00:02:49.400 But it all builds up to this point of, 00:02:50.100 --> 00:02:54.240 what if we looked at our churches online as a platform, 00:02:55.000 --> 00:02:56.680 not in something where, once again, 00:02:56.720 --> 00:02:59.420 we're creating this product for people to consume, 00:02:59.940 --> 00:03:02.560 but what if we're looking at it as resources 00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:05.740 that enable others, our 99, 00:03:06.380 --> 00:03:09.440 to reach their individual ones? 00:03:09.980 --> 00:03:12.580 The power of church online, and I've said this before, 00:03:12.780 --> 00:03:15.460 is not a virtual building to meet in. 00:03:15.940 --> 00:03:19.480 The power of church online is when it's a distribution network 00:03:19.480 --> 00:03:22.440 of the gospel to our 99s, 00:03:22.520 --> 00:03:25.760 enabling them to reach their one. 00:03:26.160 --> 00:03:29.180 And so the conversation here today with Doug Parks 00:03:29.180 --> 00:03:32.640 from Intentional Churches just scratches the surface, 00:03:33.140 --> 00:03:35.240 truly, for what we, the church, 00:03:35.320 --> 00:03:38.360 and how we need to be thinking about physical church, 00:03:38.760 --> 00:03:40.520 as well as probably church online, 00:03:40.780 --> 00:03:42.060 phygital church. 00:03:42.140 --> 00:03:42.700 You see what I did there? 00:03:42.760 --> 00:03:44.000 Phygital, physical and digital. 00:03:44.720 --> 00:03:46.280 Phygital church as well. 00:03:46.620 --> 00:03:47.300 So check it out. 00:03:47.580 --> 00:03:48.860 Bring it into the conversation, of course, 00:03:48.940 --> 00:03:50.320 Doug Parks, talking about him, 00:03:50.660 --> 00:03:51.600 Intentional Churches. 00:03:51.960 --> 00:03:53.720 Be sure to check out his info in the show notes, 00:03:53.780 --> 00:03:56.060 as well as Ray Dimas, 00:03:56.220 --> 00:03:57.880 digital pastor, Christ Fellowship Miami, 00:03:58.300 --> 00:03:59.840 in a conversation that I'm calling 00:03:59.840 --> 00:04:01.320 Churches Platform. 00:04:01.820 --> 00:04:06.180 We're moving away from the institutional church. 00:04:06.740 --> 00:04:07.420 Okay, everybody. 00:04:07.940 --> 00:04:08.360 Here you go. 00:04:09.260 --> 00:04:10.200 Well, let's do this. 00:04:10.260 --> 00:04:12.120 Maybe even just to start off the conversation. 00:04:12.740 --> 00:04:14.760 Maybe just tell a little bit about yourself, 00:04:14.880 --> 00:04:16.500 your story, how you ended up in Vegas 00:04:16.500 --> 00:04:17.760 with your ministry story, 00:04:18.260 --> 00:04:19.340 Intentional Churches. 00:04:19.480 --> 00:04:20.140 You know, obviously, 00:04:20.780 --> 00:04:23.740 we've had some conversation with Lee Coat. 00:04:23.740 --> 00:04:27.420 So we did a podcast with them a month ago. 00:04:27.880 --> 00:04:29.680 By the way, Lee's podcast is, 00:04:29.740 --> 00:04:30.900 I just discovered this, Ray, 00:04:31.140 --> 00:04:33.740 it's number two on our most listened podcast at this point. 00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:36.360 So, because it was around discipleship pathways, 00:04:36.500 --> 00:04:37.200 digital pathways. 00:04:37.820 --> 00:04:40.140 And so, obviously, that's a hot topic right now. 00:04:40.180 --> 00:04:41.600 And so it blew up quickly. 00:04:42.700 --> 00:04:45.180 But even Doug just kind of set this up. 00:04:45.280 --> 00:04:46.660 Tell us a little bit about yourself 00:04:46.660 --> 00:04:50.300 and your ministry path kind of 00:04:50.300 --> 00:04:51.880 to get to Intentional Churches. 00:04:51.880 --> 00:04:52.360 Great. 00:04:52.980 --> 00:04:56.160 Yeah, so I grew up in southeastern Ohio, 00:04:56.440 --> 00:04:58.040 about 20 minutes from West Virginia. 00:04:58.580 --> 00:05:00.580 And so it really was the hill country 00:05:00.580 --> 00:05:01.440 where I grew up. 00:05:01.600 --> 00:05:05.960 Very blue collar and just a rough, 00:05:06.260 --> 00:05:07.560 honestly, rough childhood. 00:05:07.760 --> 00:05:09.560 My dad was a heavy drinker 00:05:09.560 --> 00:05:12.920 and then was diagnosed with manic depressant disorder 00:05:12.920 --> 00:05:15.220 in the 80s in Redneckville. 00:05:15.340 --> 00:05:18.120 So there wasn't a whole lot of mental help there. 00:05:18.500 --> 00:05:23.400 But had a very dramatic relational salvation story 00:05:23.400 --> 00:05:23.960 in high school. 00:05:24.080 --> 00:05:26.280 Had a youth pastor in this little tiny town, man. 00:05:26.360 --> 00:05:28.660 And he came after at-risk kids like me 00:05:28.660 --> 00:05:31.220 and got me in the youth group, 00:05:31.320 --> 00:05:32.360 got me doing fun stuff 00:05:32.360 --> 00:05:33.380 and introduced me to Jesus 00:05:33.380 --> 00:05:36.260 and accepted Christ late in high school 00:05:36.260 --> 00:05:38.020 because of him. 00:05:38.080 --> 00:05:42.040 And then he became kind of the father figure for me. 00:05:42.140 --> 00:05:43.220 And so he encouraged me 00:05:43.220 --> 00:05:45.740 to go to a small Bible college in Cincinnati. 00:05:45.940 --> 00:05:47.320 First in my family to go to college. 00:05:47.500 --> 00:05:49.540 Had to work because I'm figuring out my own way. 00:05:49.660 --> 00:05:50.800 Ended up at Chick-fil-A 00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:53.500 working for another Christian man 00:05:53.500 --> 00:05:55.380 who really took me under his wing. 00:05:55.500 --> 00:05:57.640 Retired from the Pentagon, Marine Corps guy. 00:05:58.340 --> 00:06:00.960 And made a case my senior year 00:06:00.960 --> 00:06:03.420 for me to take over a failing store in Cincinnati 00:06:03.420 --> 00:06:07.400 and became the youngest owner-operator 00:06:07.400 --> 00:06:08.660 Chick-fil-A had ever hired. 00:06:08.780 --> 00:06:11.620 I was 21 when I took over a store. 00:06:11.620 --> 00:06:12.460 What were they thinking? 00:06:13.900 --> 00:06:15.580 Yeah, so I did that for a few years. 00:06:15.880 --> 00:06:16.620 We did well. 00:06:16.960 --> 00:06:18.980 And quite frankly, I burned out. 00:06:19.080 --> 00:06:20.900 I had not done the emotional work 00:06:20.900 --> 00:06:22.040 I needed to from my childhood. 00:06:22.820 --> 00:06:24.940 And so I escaped to Las Vegas 00:06:24.940 --> 00:06:26.760 to help plant a Gen X church 00:06:26.760 --> 00:06:27.780 when that was a thing 00:06:27.780 --> 00:06:29.820 inside of another church. 00:06:29.960 --> 00:06:32.320 So I moved to Vegas in the late 90s, 00:06:32.540 --> 00:06:34.040 96, 97, something like that. 00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:37.660 And came up in ministry 00:06:37.660 --> 00:06:41.840 with guys like Driscoll 00:06:41.840 --> 00:06:43.900 and Chris C down in Texas 00:06:43.900 --> 00:06:47.100 and some of the house church kind of guys. 00:06:48.140 --> 00:06:49.000 Did that for a while 00:06:49.000 --> 00:06:51.000 and then became the operations guy 00:06:51.000 --> 00:06:52.960 at our church before we had a building 00:06:52.960 --> 00:06:54.560 and then became the executive pastor 00:06:54.560 --> 00:06:55.300 for a long run. 00:06:55.380 --> 00:06:57.040 I think 17 years total I was there. 00:06:57.180 --> 00:06:59.300 The church plant ended up kind of nosediving 00:06:59.300 --> 00:07:02.000 as it switched to a house church model. 00:07:02.620 --> 00:07:05.060 And so, yeah, fell in love with doing that. 00:07:05.220 --> 00:07:06.400 And I've always facilitated. 00:07:07.220 --> 00:07:09.400 Me and an old friend got reunited. 00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:12.140 He was on staff at Central Church here in Vegas. 00:07:12.840 --> 00:07:14.720 I was at Canyon Ridge, the daughter church. 00:07:15.100 --> 00:07:17.320 And he invited me to go on the road and say, 00:07:17.440 --> 00:07:18.800 hey, I think we can figure out, 00:07:18.860 --> 00:07:20.000 this is like 11 years ago, 00:07:20.380 --> 00:07:23.000 how to bring strategic planning to the local church. 00:07:23.900 --> 00:07:25.380 And it started a long journey. 00:07:25.620 --> 00:07:28.180 And we founded IC Intentional Churches 00:07:28.180 --> 00:07:29.820 about six and a half years ago, 00:07:29.940 --> 00:07:30.840 seven and a half years ago. 00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:33.480 So there was about four years of R&D. 00:07:34.100 --> 00:07:35.500 And then, you know, 00:07:35.540 --> 00:07:36.780 we really have hit our stride here 00:07:36.780 --> 00:07:37.880 in the last three years 00:07:37.880 --> 00:07:39.920 of the big idea of Church OS. 00:07:40.480 --> 00:07:43.200 And yeah, so that's some of my story, man. 00:07:43.420 --> 00:07:44.940 Doing ministry in Vegas is awesome. 00:07:45.300 --> 00:07:48.140 And the reason why I talk about my salvation story, 00:07:48.680 --> 00:07:50.760 because that's the only reason I got into ministry, man, 00:07:50.760 --> 00:07:53.140 was to help Luke 15 ones, 00:07:53.400 --> 00:07:56.980 all my ones in my life to find Jesus, man. 00:07:57.120 --> 00:07:59.200 So that's part of what you'll find in our stuff always 00:07:59.200 --> 00:08:01.240 is how do we reach one more one? 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:04.740 Yeah, we've talked a lot about the ones in the podcast. 00:08:05.560 --> 00:08:07.940 Tim Selleck has done a podcast on that. 00:08:08.740 --> 00:08:11.080 You know, of course, Tim out of California, 00:08:11.200 --> 00:08:11.640 in which they do. 00:08:12.520 --> 00:08:15.180 Craig did a podcast, Craig Whitney, 00:08:15.700 --> 00:08:20.140 talking about kind of getting out of the church service business, 00:08:20.400 --> 00:08:23.380 focusing more on the ones and talking through some of that, 00:08:23.480 --> 00:08:24.760 how to start a movement process. 00:08:25.300 --> 00:08:27.140 And so it's funny, like all these conversations 00:08:27.140 --> 00:08:29.140 that we're having, you know, 00:08:29.140 --> 00:08:31.160 even going back to Lee Coates, 00:08:31.280 --> 00:08:34.120 we're talking about with the discipleship pathways, 00:08:34.260 --> 00:08:37.040 it's all starting to intertwine together into a set. 00:08:37.220 --> 00:08:39.440 I really want to talk about this idea, 00:08:39.540 --> 00:08:41.780 use the phrase church's platform. 00:08:42.900 --> 00:08:45.080 You know, and so like there was this historical context 00:08:45.080 --> 00:08:47.400 where church was, you know, Sunday school based, 00:08:47.400 --> 00:08:49.360 and then it went to more of like a purpose-driven base. 00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:51.640 And now the future you were saying, 00:08:51.720 --> 00:08:54.460 maybe possibly is this church and platform. 00:08:54.820 --> 00:08:57.500 And so you said it quickly, I didn't get to explore it. 00:08:57.600 --> 00:09:01.800 I would love to explore what this idea of church's platform, 00:09:02.220 --> 00:09:03.180 what that means. 00:09:03.300 --> 00:09:05.980 So when you said that, like, give me some context 00:09:05.980 --> 00:09:10.140 and start to describe kind of what church's platform is. 00:09:10.500 --> 00:09:11.740 Well, I think, Jeff, 00:09:11.860 --> 00:09:14.620 it really goes back three or four years for us. 00:09:14.660 --> 00:09:17.340 So this is not a brand new thought or idea. 00:09:17.340 --> 00:09:19.540 It's one that's morphing as we're going here. 00:09:19.540 --> 00:09:25.220 And that it started for us in vision casting inside of our church OS. 00:09:25.360 --> 00:09:26.340 And now we help a church. 00:09:26.440 --> 00:09:30.180 We talk about vision casting and that every church needs three types of vision 00:09:30.180 --> 00:09:32.440 that they cast. 00:09:32.600 --> 00:09:35.120 And traditionally it's been institutional vision. 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:38.760 Like, look at what a great church we're going to be in three to five years. 00:09:39.400 --> 00:09:43.400 This number of campuses, this number of people attending, so on and so forth. 00:09:43.460 --> 00:09:49.000 And then our millennials really got after us about casting vision about impact. 00:09:49.160 --> 00:09:55.400 Like, what's the impact we can have in our community, in our world, if we band together. 00:09:55.960 --> 00:10:01.360 But we really, again, three or four years ago, started feeling like this platform idea is seed. 00:10:01.460 --> 00:10:06.420 Now that I look back, was starting with this idea of why is the church not casting more vision 00:10:06.420 --> 00:10:08.180 for the individual? 00:10:08.660 --> 00:10:13.880 Like, if I follow Jesus, how will my life be different three years from now, four years from now? 00:10:13.980 --> 00:10:16.360 Will I be a different dad, a different husband? 00:10:16.580 --> 00:10:19.480 Will I interact with my community differently? 00:10:19.880 --> 00:10:22.140 And how will I be emotionally? 00:10:22.560 --> 00:10:24.300 And, you know, casting the individual. 00:10:25.120 --> 00:10:29.840 And so I think that's really where it started and where it's really morphed for us. 00:10:30.020 --> 00:10:34.040 This idea of engagement in the church is really hot button right now. 00:10:34.720 --> 00:10:39.460 One of our tools for years has been the idea of an engagement pathway and how we connect. 00:10:39.460 --> 00:10:43.780 I think Lee referenced and talked about, you know, our framework that The Crossing's been using. 00:10:43.980 --> 00:10:46.000 Around engagement pathway. 00:10:46.840 --> 00:10:55.520 And I think when we first started talking about it, as COVID hit, we, like everybody else, 00:10:55.600 --> 00:10:57.340 we're trying to figure out, is it digital? 00:10:57.540 --> 00:10:58.260 Is it physical? 00:10:58.760 --> 00:11:01.400 Is it a fidgetal, like, hybrid thing? 00:11:02.280 --> 00:11:08.620 And I think the early days of COVID, coming back to this platform idea, really started showing 00:11:08.620 --> 00:11:18.120 us, we may be in a morph as the church, the prevailing church of the future, away from thinking institutionally. 00:11:18.260 --> 00:11:22.960 And almost all of us, including me as pastors, are wired to think the institution of the church. 00:11:23.160 --> 00:11:30.060 And really thinking about the church more as a platform that connects people to people, supplies, 00:11:30.180 --> 00:11:35.200 just like any platform business, like CarGurus or Airbnb or Uber. 00:11:35.680 --> 00:11:38.240 You know, there's tons and tons of platform businesses now. 00:11:38.800 --> 00:11:43.820 Where they sit in the middle, the church of the future, I think, is going to sit in the middle 00:11:43.820 --> 00:11:46.520 more providing resources and guardrails. 00:11:47.220 --> 00:11:52.500 And the ability to help people to connect more directly to one another and help one another. 00:11:52.600 --> 00:11:59.700 The early days of COVID, we saw it with the, I can give help button and I need help button 00:11:59.700 --> 00:12:01.260 that many churches put on their website. 00:12:01.400 --> 00:12:09.660 That was the church stewarding the relationship, like Airbnb, between individuals, if you will. 00:12:10.040 --> 00:12:11.360 Let me ask this question this way. 00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:19.420 What are you seeing culturally that would lead towards more of this getting rid of the institution? 00:12:19.580 --> 00:12:25.200 And maybe that's a strong word, but not doing it so much as institutionally, as much as providing 00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:26.600 resources and that. 00:12:26.760 --> 00:12:34.120 So like, why would moving to church as platform, why would that be better than what we're doing 00:12:34.120 --> 00:12:34.620 now? 00:12:34.620 --> 00:12:45.020 Well, I think it's because it's actually activating, in Luke 15 language, our 99 and their ones to 00:12:45.020 --> 00:12:46.580 be engaged directly more. 00:12:47.400 --> 00:12:52.160 So instead of, you know, traditionally, most church people, I think, have thought about, 00:12:52.340 --> 00:12:58.220 hey, I'm going to go invite my one to come to a church service, and then I'm going to hand 00:12:58.220 --> 00:13:02.500 it off to the pastor and the staff, and they're going to figure out how to connect them to Jesus 00:13:02.500 --> 00:13:03.780 and to us and to others. 00:13:04.900 --> 00:13:12.100 And I think in the world we're living in today, number one, institutions are a dirty word. 00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:16.640 I mean, no one trusts institutions really anymore. 00:13:17.080 --> 00:13:20.200 But, you know, we trust our relationships to our neighbors. 00:13:20.400 --> 00:13:29.380 So I really think the idea of one-on-one connection, I've been saying this from the early days of COVID, 00:13:29.380 --> 00:13:36.220 the fear was the church would turn more inward than it ever has been, meaning become more about the 99. 00:13:36.640 --> 00:13:38.200 And how do we keep our 99? 00:13:38.400 --> 00:13:39.760 And how do we keep our 99 giving? 00:13:40.640 --> 00:13:47.780 And the churches that really started to make headway, I think, were realizing that the invest of invest 00:13:47.780 --> 00:13:57.640 and invite is probably at record levels in our generation, meaning I'm more invested in my neighbors than I ever was pre-COVID, 00:13:57.740 --> 00:13:58.700 because I've had time. 00:13:58.820 --> 00:13:59.800 I'm walking my neighborhood. 00:14:00.640 --> 00:14:08.940 So a platform thinking church is thinking about how do I steward that and equip me to the relationships I've already built in my community. 00:14:09.340 --> 00:14:18.620 And, you know, we've, we've tried to take some action on that here, but that's, that's how we're, it's more, it's better because we're activating people's faith. 00:14:19.140 --> 00:14:27.480 We're not challenging them to go get someone and bring them to the institution of the church and then hand off the growth of that person. 00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:28.620 That's really good, Doug. 00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:32.900 So how are you guys actively sharing that vision with your people? 00:14:33.080 --> 00:14:34.960 Because it always sounds practical. 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:38.560 And to me, this is like the original envisioning of the church, right? 00:14:38.580 --> 00:14:40.620 To equip the saints to do the work of the ministry. 00:14:40.840 --> 00:14:44.520 Like that's, that's kind of the basic theology on what the local church is supposed to be. 00:14:44.600 --> 00:14:50.400 But so much of what we've done has become content creation platform, less equipping of the saints. 00:14:50.620 --> 00:14:56.080 And so how are you guys driving the equipment side and less content just to come and see side? 00:14:56.080 --> 00:14:57.360 Yeah, that's a great question. 00:14:57.600 --> 00:15:05.420 If you're a church leader, you need to get in the shoes of your 99, get in the lives of your 99. 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:07.560 And we overcomplicate it. 00:15:08.260 --> 00:15:13.780 You know, most people, when they hear about, most 99s, when they hear about evangelism or reaching your neighbor, they freak out. 00:15:14.020 --> 00:15:20.680 They think, oh, I've got to know the Roman road and have an answer to every question they'll ever have. 00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:27.640 And so I was in a meeting early on with one of our very high level volunteers at my home church, Canyon Ridge. 00:15:28.460 --> 00:15:42.100 And he's literally, he's leaning in like, but what's missing is the church has not provided easy examples where a 99 would say, I could do that. 00:15:42.280 --> 00:15:43.940 Like, that's not that hard. 00:15:44.600 --> 00:15:54.400 And so some real pragmatic examples we saw, again, this would be more platform thinking, where a church in upstate New York used, and this ended up happening in many places. 00:15:54.780 --> 00:16:00.200 But the church bought yard signs and had the church people come pick them up. 00:16:00.640 --> 00:16:06.280 And then the goal was to write your cell phone number on it. 00:16:06.540 --> 00:16:13.480 And then things that you might be able to provide help with, grocery shopping for your neighbors or whatever, as people are driving and walking past. 00:16:14.280 --> 00:16:22.520 Again, the church is providing a very practical, easy platform thinking new to bridge the gap between neighbor to neighbor. 00:16:22.640 --> 00:16:26.160 One of the cool things we did, we got this idea from someone else. 00:16:26.260 --> 00:16:27.060 We're not this creative. 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:34.580 But we hired a Kona ice truck to come into our neighborhood. 00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:37.940 My kids, again, this is platform kind of thinking. 00:16:37.940 --> 00:16:40.700 It came from my church leadership giving this example. 00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:42.580 And I said, we can do this. 00:16:43.880 --> 00:16:48.440 My kids made invitations and hand-delivered them to the 150 homes in our neighborhood. 00:16:49.280 --> 00:16:52.000 And it was really the first community. 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:58.020 And we had social distancing and sanitizer, which quickly fell apart once everybody got here. 00:16:58.300 --> 00:17:03.020 But we had like 80 to 100 people show up for Kona ice night. 00:17:03.020 --> 00:17:06.920 And we're still, we'll walk by somebody's house and they'll go, you're the Kona ice people, right? 00:17:07.620 --> 00:17:09.540 And, you know, we paid for it, all that. 00:17:09.820 --> 00:17:14.760 And again, the church is showing, is challenging me to answer, go back to your question. 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:17.540 You want your people to say, I can do that. 00:17:17.620 --> 00:17:22.600 And it's not going to cost me days and days of my time and I don't have to get trained. 00:17:22.740 --> 00:17:27.380 And, you know, this is a very practical example of the invest side. 00:17:27.740 --> 00:17:34.400 To date now, we've had four other food trucks in our neighborhood where others got inspired to generosity. 00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:38.680 And like, you know, our neighbors put up a tent with like tables and sliders. 00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:41.960 And it's just a great connection time. 00:17:42.120 --> 00:17:43.300 Again, platform thinking. 00:17:43.460 --> 00:17:49.040 How do we help our people say, I can do that in a way that builds relationship with their ones? 00:17:49.360 --> 00:17:52.000 Are you guys then celebrating that with the rest of your congregation? 00:17:52.080 --> 00:17:55.840 Because especially in this time where it can be tough to like send out video crews or whatever else. 00:17:55.840 --> 00:17:57.940 Like, how are you guys showing that example? 00:17:58.100 --> 00:17:59.300 It's a wonderful example. 00:17:59.500 --> 00:18:01.420 But once again, there's no offense to you, Doug. 00:18:01.640 --> 00:18:02.380 You're one of the pastors. 00:18:02.800 --> 00:18:08.100 So, you know, if I'm an attender at your church, how then is that kind of translating to the rest of the congregation? 00:18:08.100 --> 00:18:10.840 So that another attender could feel like, bro, I can do that too. 00:18:11.040 --> 00:18:11.580 That sounds awesome. 00:18:11.980 --> 00:18:12.340 That's right. 00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:15.040 So we started, again, more platform thinking. 00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:27.380 We started a vlog, a video blog from our senior pastor that was five minutes or less, where he would teach on something that related to being in COVID and use scripture. 00:18:27.620 --> 00:18:38.760 And then we started accumulating stories and doing, having, like, they had me film myself, talk about the idea. 00:18:39.600 --> 00:18:42.480 And I actually went out in the street and showed him where it was. 00:18:42.560 --> 00:18:46.500 And so he was able to teach, here's the principle, here's investing in your neighbor. 00:18:46.940 --> 00:18:48.580 Now here's Doug's going to talk about it. 00:18:48.600 --> 00:18:51.940 And there was one other person who's not a pastor who did something similar. 00:18:51.940 --> 00:19:00.060 I think they did cookies and paid it forward, you know, like, deliver cookies to 10 neighbors and then challenged them to deliver to two neighbors something else, you know. 00:19:01.080 --> 00:19:07.060 In that vlog, then, we're collecting the stories back because there's comment sections all through the thing. 00:19:07.160 --> 00:19:08.780 Again, the church becoming platform. 00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:12.960 The teaching is two to three minutes. 00:19:13.300 --> 00:19:18.820 There's video, whether it's a Zoom interview that a staff member did or somebody recorded on their phone. 00:19:19.240 --> 00:19:23.680 And then that is then pumped out to the email list, contact list of thousands. 00:19:24.600 --> 00:19:26.800 And they're seeing and doing that. 00:19:26.900 --> 00:19:32.120 And then we're getting stories back of how other people are actually doing what the example was, right? 00:19:32.420 --> 00:19:33.020 That's great. 00:19:33.180 --> 00:19:38.380 Hey, I didn't realize your history was in house church, like home churches. 00:19:39.160 --> 00:19:46.140 And to me, that actually tells me a lot more about some of the framework of this idea of church's platform. 00:19:46.940 --> 00:19:55.720 Because when I look at the extreme level, okay, yeah, so Kona Ice coming in and doing snow cones for the neighborhood, that's, I mean, I want to say that's more entry level. 00:19:55.720 --> 00:20:02.020 But when I look at it, two, three, four, five, six years down the road, I'm seeing house churches. 00:20:02.020 --> 00:20:03.640 I'm seeing micro locations. 00:20:03.640 --> 00:20:04.720 I'm seeing multiplication. 00:20:05.380 --> 00:20:17.180 I'm seeing independent actions, maybe from the planting church, but now is resourcing others, not necessarily by producing services, 00:20:17.560 --> 00:20:28.080 but empowering others on doing ministry, whether it's church services or, you know, the one and others of the Bible, within areas like their community. 00:20:28.800 --> 00:20:31.400 Do you see it stretching that far as well? 00:20:31.560 --> 00:20:35.880 Or, like, what's the long play in something like this with church's platform? 00:20:36.360 --> 00:20:37.780 Oh, absolutely. 00:20:38.280 --> 00:20:39.300 I mean, you hit on it. 00:20:39.300 --> 00:20:50.800 It's whether, you know, we've gotten so hung up over the years, over the models, that I think Ray said it earlier, like, it's, hey, nothing's really changed that much for thousands of years. 00:20:50.840 --> 00:20:52.020 We just have more tools. 00:20:52.500 --> 00:21:00.520 And it all comes down to relationship and trust between individuals and the ability to serve and share. 00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:03.240 And so, yeah, we see it. 00:21:03.340 --> 00:21:09.640 In fact, my senior pastor, as he taught out on this vlog where he used me as an example, is teaching multiplication. 00:21:10.260 --> 00:21:12.360 Because we're talking about the vision cast. 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:15.920 Number one, our neighbors caught the vision of generosity. 00:21:16.300 --> 00:21:18.580 Four neighbors have paid for other food trucks to come in. 00:21:18.580 --> 00:21:22.760 And I'm brainstorming new ideas because it was so fun and creative. 00:21:23.100 --> 00:21:26.540 And, like, it was way more an ROI than I thought it was going to be. 00:21:27.080 --> 00:21:28.780 Like, we've got new things we're thinking about. 00:21:28.940 --> 00:21:34.020 But we see long term, we moved into the neighborhood that we're in for this very reason. 00:21:34.220 --> 00:21:43.680 Like, to gather and eventually, whether they're called house churches or hanging around in a fire pit or whatever, it ends up being called. 00:21:43.800 --> 00:21:44.740 We see it going there. 00:21:44.740 --> 00:21:52.220 And that I don't think you should be telling your people and challenging them to invite their ones to an online service first. 00:21:52.640 --> 00:22:02.480 That just does not seem, it just seems absurd to me that the neighbors on my street, that I would invite them first to an online service. 00:22:02.600 --> 00:22:10.160 I think, you know, what we've done, we're going to do invites to meals once we're able to meet more again and do stuff in our yard. 00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:32.820 And at the right time, we may introduce that again, the platform thinking idea for me is just turning upside down the way any of us have really thought about church in our generations, where it's going to be about deep relational connections and not the systems and processes need to be set up to help the 99 and ones connect. 00:22:33.060 --> 00:22:37.700 I got to tell you, I got to tell you, I got to tell you, I've been starting to use some of that language as well. 00:22:38.340 --> 00:22:54.460 Not even tied to this, but if we're really looking at the effectiveness of reaching ones, is our online services really effective towards evangelism to where we're making a difference in people's lives and we're seeing salvation come from it? 00:22:54.960 --> 00:23:06.940 Or is it helpful, like is it helpful on itself or do we need to support it with like a friend sharing it or having that relational equity and then the person introduces the service? 00:23:07.480 --> 00:23:16.560 And I want you to know, like I'm a guy who usually says controversial things on a regular basis and pastors flipping out on me has happened over the majority of my life. 00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:23.380 And I'm not going to lie in this, but this one topic, wait, church services aren't evangelical like that. 00:23:23.480 --> 00:23:36.180 That's a hard truth, I think, for for churches to to receive, to process, to work through, you know, and even questioning, OK, that 20 minutes of worship that that you're doing up front. 00:23:36.280 --> 00:23:43.220 Is that for your one or is that for your 99 and if it's for your 99, like recognize it's for your 99. 00:23:43.660 --> 00:23:50.000 But if you're saying it's for your one, is it is that effective for your one is is the 40 minutes message. 00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:55.680 Is that effective for your one virtually or even as you're going back to it physically? 00:23:55.680 --> 00:24:13.520 And so, like, I just would love to hear when churches wrestle with that idea of breaking away from the kind of that first step in the discipleship funnel in your pathway being the church service, because the church and platform, what is the first step? 00:24:13.600 --> 00:24:17.660 Is it that church service or like how would you document or draw that out? 00:24:17.660 --> 00:24:25.580 When the church organizes itself and develops its institutional identity, of which attending a service then becomes a very prominent thing. 00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:26.440 It's countable. 00:24:26.860 --> 00:24:27.760 It's, you know, we can. 00:24:29.020 --> 00:24:38.600 At IC, we try to live between the tension of being a missional discipling movement while we're growing and organizing instead of throwing one or the other out. 00:24:38.600 --> 00:24:42.120 And I don't know if it can be done, but that's where that's where we live. 00:24:42.180 --> 00:24:53.440 So when you're asking about what's the first step, I think COVID and the next, I'm going to say through 21 at least, the first steps are things like what I'm describing. 00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:54.700 They're Kona ice trucks. 00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:55.520 They're relational. 00:24:55.900 --> 00:24:57.960 They're, okay, now the next thing. 00:24:58.100 --> 00:25:01.620 Could you have, like, we really tried to do this pre-COVID. 00:25:02.460 --> 00:25:09.480 You know, on the way to Christmas Eve when somebody's potentially open to an invite to a church experience, especially if they have kids. 00:25:10.280 --> 00:25:18.180 Could you, at Halloween, do something very practical and challenge all your people to do it and make your house the go-to house in the neighborhood? 00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:25.220 Free food out with the grill in the, in the, and challenging your church people. 00:25:25.420 --> 00:25:30.300 Could you form a relationship with one or two people you could invite over to dinner before Thanksgiving? 00:25:31.140 --> 00:25:42.080 These, to me, are the, again, pastors, we sometimes, and I was guilty, I'm guilty of this too, we forget our people are living real lives. 00:25:42.580 --> 00:25:50.640 And so we don't make pragmatic, easy, I could do that examples very often, like what I'm describing to you now. 00:25:50.820 --> 00:25:54.620 So, you know, one, you know, one or two of those families, can you invite them over for dinner? 00:25:55.240 --> 00:25:59.600 And then, you know, is there something we can pray for? 00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:06.600 You pray at dinner, we're taking some sort of, and then maybe an invite to a Christmas Eve service, whether it's online or physical. 00:26:07.100 --> 00:26:17.420 It makes sense then, because we've got relational equity, and that's something that a one might value, that their kid had a cool experience hearing about baby Jesus, you know? 00:26:18.100 --> 00:26:32.940 So, I think, I think, Jeff, the first step, the missing piece that we've had in the institutional church is we've seen the first step into a service instead of into what we call the relational reach zone. 00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:41.140 That relational reach zone, whether it's digital or physical, is a real thing, and every church needs to make sure they have strategies around it. 00:26:41.140 --> 00:26:50.940 And the more platform strategies, like how do we add, here's one of the ideas I've heard from a church in Texas, and then some churches up in New England. 00:26:51.820 --> 00:26:54.360 How do we add value to our 99s? 00:26:54.880 --> 00:26:56.960 Like, what are they struggling with right now? 00:26:57.060 --> 00:27:02.600 Thinking through moms and dads with toddlers trying to work on Zoom. 00:27:03.720 --> 00:27:07.800 And my church should be stepping in the gap, helping with that. 00:27:07.800 --> 00:27:17.180 Like, here's a, we had one church that did a explainer video, and then here's a schedule for toddlers and how you should run the house. 00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:19.240 And it adds value. 00:27:19.240 --> 00:27:31.720 And then being able to challenge our 99 then to share that, whatever that very pragmatic tool that we're sharing with our 99 and their felt need at that moment, that they would share it with their ones. 00:27:31.720 --> 00:27:39.900 And it's delivering, and it's delivering digitally, relational investment and the invest-invite strategy. 00:27:40.100 --> 00:27:55.120 So I think backing up, we want, whether you're a missional church, Gen Xer, and you believed in the communal house church movement, or you were a boomer and you were into the attractional model, all three of those, the attractional, missional, communal model, 00:27:55.440 --> 00:28:00.140 it all needs to start in the relational reach zone, not in a weekend service. 00:28:00.800 --> 00:28:06.580 And how are we challenging and equipping our people that they're thinking that way, that they're on mission wherever they're at? 00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:08.340 We're not adding to their schedule. 00:28:08.620 --> 00:28:14.900 We're bringing intentionality at restaurants and coffee shops and in their neighborhood when they're walking or at the gym and exercising. 00:28:15.580 --> 00:28:17.560 So is there a mid-step here? 00:28:17.840 --> 00:28:27.000 Because part of my concern with what you're talking about with the invest-in-invite culture is it has created somewhat of a consumer mentality for church in the sense of, that's not my job, pastor. 00:28:27.060 --> 00:28:27.740 That's your job. 00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:29.540 You know, like, you do the work. 00:28:29.580 --> 00:28:30.300 You do it. 00:28:30.360 --> 00:28:30.940 You do the work. 00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:31.740 Like, that sounds great. 00:28:31.840 --> 00:28:33.580 But you guys host a trunk or treat. 00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:44.260 Like, I don't want to do anything in my house because then I'm afraid as far as, like, either outing myself as a Christian or, like, if I engage somebody, I'm not, I'm afraid of what I'm going to say next. 00:28:44.420 --> 00:28:46.320 Like, there's so many things that kind of come up there. 00:28:46.380 --> 00:28:50.940 So how are you guys helping people kind of take that next step, part of the process in it? 00:28:51.380 --> 00:28:58.660 It goes back, kind of the formula for me is you got to debunk that, hey, you meet people all the time. 00:28:58.780 --> 00:28:59.420 All of us do. 00:29:00.080 --> 00:29:08.680 So debunk that because I meet them and I'm a Christ follower, my church is, like, encouraging me to do that doesn't mean I got to have every answer to every question. 00:29:08.800 --> 00:29:11.760 Doesn't even mean I have to declare that I'm a Jesus follower at first. 00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:23.080 So helping take your people's blood pressure down by just saying, guys, this is normal life, and then giving them practical ideas on things they could do that they would say yes to. 00:29:23.080 --> 00:29:37.980 Like, you become, how do we, again, platform thinking for a church, if we ever get back to club soccer and club sports, how does your family become, like, the hub relationally? 00:29:38.320 --> 00:29:45.540 I mean, those are easy steps that most 99 families, most of us who are Christ followers, are already doing it in some way. 00:29:46.060 --> 00:29:47.840 I just don't think it's as giant a leap. 00:29:48.080 --> 00:29:55.740 And part of our job in the pastorate, we got to really ratchet down everybody's blood pressure and maybe not even use the word evangelism. 00:29:55.880 --> 00:29:58.920 Like, just talk about getting to know people. 00:30:00.300 --> 00:30:03.320 And then, you know, I keep hitting on this, Jim. 00:30:03.320 --> 00:30:27.440 So the platform idea, then, is instead of the church giving me a, you know, here's my list of five people to pray for, which is a great practical step, just give me two or three of these real pragmatic ideas that I could do with my neighbors or my friends or my waiter or waitress or barista or whatever it is that my church is standing in that gap and helping me think through and simplifying that. 00:30:29.140 --> 00:30:31.820 We just got to, we have to take everybody's blood pressure down. 00:30:31.980 --> 00:30:34.720 This is not rocket science relating to people. 00:30:34.820 --> 00:30:36.140 You do it all the time. 00:30:36.740 --> 00:30:37.980 No, I love this. 00:30:38.080 --> 00:30:42.200 And actually, Ray asking that question in this conversation. 00:30:42.580 --> 00:30:48.900 But this is actually why Ray and I work so well together, because Ray's asking for the intermediary step. 00:30:48.900 --> 00:30:55.620 And I'm like, no, let's pour gasoline on this and let's take it to the extreme, because I process everything at the extreme to make sure that it aligns. 00:30:56.120 --> 00:31:05.960 And so part of me, as you're describing this, and I hear, take the blood pressure down, you know, we want you to relationally connect with people. 00:31:07.260 --> 00:31:09.140 Part of me, and maybe I'm an idealist. 00:31:09.340 --> 00:31:12.040 If you listen to this podcast, you hear me on a regular basis. 00:31:12.180 --> 00:31:13.620 I probably am an idealist. 00:31:13.620 --> 00:31:40.600 I actually start to investigate, if you're in this process, if you're in this path, the church service doesn't as much become the evangelism tool, as much as it is the tool to encourage the 99s, to inspire the 99s, to celebrate with the 99s, and release them out to go do, to talk, to connect, to share with the ones. 00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:53.640 Maybe that's gasoline on the flame, maybe that needs to be several intermediary steps along the way, but does that extreme kind of line up for you, or how do you view that differently further down the road? 00:31:53.880 --> 00:31:55.800 Number one, I haven't talked much about it. 00:31:55.880 --> 00:31:59.120 At the end of the day, we don't control outcomes, and it's all Lord willing. 00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:06.280 So there's the Holy Spirit piece that we don't even know when we're investing in somebody relationally along the way. 00:32:06.280 --> 00:32:14.260 And as far as, like, church services, I think they can be, not on their own, not out of relational context. 00:32:14.380 --> 00:32:24.140 I don't know that church services are really hugely evangelistic and by nature, but I always tell this story, you know, I've spoiled my oldest daughter forever. 00:32:24.320 --> 00:32:25.420 She loved Coldplay. 00:32:26.200 --> 00:32:30.960 So her very first concert I ever took her to was Coldplay at the Rose Bowl. 00:32:31.660 --> 00:32:32.500 At the Rose Bowl. 00:32:32.500 --> 00:32:32.820 Wow. 00:32:33.120 --> 00:32:33.800 I know, I went big, man. 00:32:33.800 --> 00:32:35.060 I think I watched that video. 00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:35.860 That's impressive. 00:32:36.200 --> 00:32:37.220 I went big, man. 00:32:37.980 --> 00:32:43.720 So, you know, in a Coldplay concert, if you've never been, I'm sure there are many of your listeners who are making fun of me right now. 00:32:43.880 --> 00:32:48.780 Yes, I still like Green Day and many other alternative bands, but I did go to Coldplay. 00:32:49.720 --> 00:32:55.760 So, Chris Martin, it was the same week that, who's the guy from Beastie Boys that died? 00:32:56.140 --> 00:32:56.800 Not Mike D. 00:32:57.860 --> 00:33:01.420 Anyway, one of the three guys from Beastie Boys died of cancer. 00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:03.120 And it was that week. 00:33:03.220 --> 00:33:04.820 So, Chris Martin, it was a little more sentimental. 00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:09.360 He talked about it, sang, you got to fight for your right to the party on the piano. 00:33:09.360 --> 00:33:20.720 And then at the end, he cleared the stage, and he sat at the piano, just one spotlight on him, this high-tech show, and he played Amazing Grace. 00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:29.760 And here are 70,000 drunk and high Hollywood people singing Amazing Grace. 00:33:29.840 --> 00:33:31.280 He even did one verse a cappella. 00:33:31.520 --> 00:33:38.600 And I'm like, I do think there's something about worship that's just mysterious, and we don't get. 00:33:39.140 --> 00:33:46.020 And the application for me is, I see your point of, yes, the service is there to equip the 99 to go reach the one. 00:33:46.120 --> 00:33:47.200 I believe that wholeheartedly. 00:33:47.300 --> 00:33:53.580 But I do believe there's something about the preaching of God's word that's sharper than any double-edged sword, 00:33:53.580 --> 00:33:59.680 and the power of what I saw that night of Chris Martin singing Amazing Grace. 00:34:00.360 --> 00:34:04.180 And my daughter and I teared up, and everybody, hands raised, singing around us. 00:34:04.220 --> 00:34:06.720 I'm like, what planet are we on right now? 00:34:07.580 --> 00:34:11.440 I think we don't know how it all works. 00:34:11.620 --> 00:34:15.560 But as a church strategist, and I coined myself as a church strategist, 00:34:16.040 --> 00:34:22.160 I do not think that should be your evangelistic main lever you're pulling, 00:34:22.580 --> 00:34:26.100 as a worship service, as your evangelistic draw. 00:34:26.780 --> 00:34:28.020 It needs to be. 00:34:28.220 --> 00:34:32.220 What I believe happened, unfortunately, in America over the last several years, 00:34:32.580 --> 00:34:38.360 we got so hung up on the word attractional that the invest-invite thing, 00:34:39.880 --> 00:34:45.080 I mean, evangelism almost became a dirty word in a lot of church leadership circles 00:34:45.080 --> 00:34:49.300 instead of seeing evangelism as part of how you grow up your 99 00:34:49.300 --> 00:34:53.040 and, like you said, keep them from becoming Christian consumers. 00:34:53.900 --> 00:34:57.580 If we're always prioritizing the one as a Christ follower, 00:34:58.380 --> 00:35:00.620 I have to die to self. 00:35:00.980 --> 00:35:08.480 I have to give up maybe my money or my seat or my music, 00:35:08.900 --> 00:35:11.480 which for another generation, you know, 00:35:11.540 --> 00:35:14.700 I was with a church that had both older and younger in the room, 00:35:14.700 --> 00:35:19.100 and I said, you know, the older generation, music was the great divider of the church, 00:35:19.200 --> 00:35:20.400 like music style. 00:35:20.780 --> 00:35:23.440 But that's not good, and that isn't for our church today. 00:35:23.700 --> 00:35:25.940 The great divider is social issues. 00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:31.680 You know, racism, gender issues, all of these social issues, 00:35:31.880 --> 00:35:35.900 those are going to be the divider of the church for the next decade, two decades, 00:35:35.980 --> 00:35:37.180 not musical style. 00:35:37.520 --> 00:35:39.360 You agree with, disagree with. 00:35:40.200 --> 00:35:43.780 And that all has to be taken into account when we're reaching our one, 00:35:43.980 --> 00:35:45.540 because that's the world we're living in. 00:35:45.880 --> 00:35:48.520 It's a world divided over social issues. 00:35:50.320 --> 00:35:52.320 Yeah, I don't know why I got off on that tangent, man. 00:35:52.420 --> 00:35:55.240 No, I want to feed into that, because I don't want to get too existential with this, 00:35:55.360 --> 00:35:57.140 but I do want to talk about this part of it. 00:35:57.220 --> 00:35:59.620 It's part of the problem that we sold people on the church, 00:35:59.680 --> 00:36:02.080 in terms of what the church could do for them, as opposed to Jesus. 00:36:02.820 --> 00:36:04.880 Because that's where I'm looking at, in terms of, man, 00:36:04.960 --> 00:36:08.240 we kind of flipped everything around, and I'm part of it. 00:36:08.340 --> 00:36:12.520 Like, we created churches with amenities, as opposed to, hey, this is Jesus, 00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:13.840 for everything he is. 00:36:13.960 --> 00:36:16.960 And so now, it's kind of biting us in the rear end, in terms of, on the back end, 00:36:17.060 --> 00:36:19.860 well, man, we're having issues with racism, and loving one another, 00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:21.360 and some of these things that are very practical, 00:36:21.440 --> 00:36:23.060 in terms of the Sermon on the Mount, where it's like, 00:36:23.220 --> 00:36:26.420 oh, wait, this is basic Jesus-following stuff. 00:36:27.100 --> 00:36:28.780 How has this infiltrated the church? 00:36:28.920 --> 00:36:31.060 Well, we kind of sold them on all the other stuff, 00:36:31.200 --> 00:36:32.400 and now that stuff's not there. 00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:38.040 So now, we're kind of becoming aware of, oh, are they actually following Jesus? 00:36:39.040 --> 00:36:43.640 As opposed to, oh, like, as opposed to what we've been selling them on this entire time. 00:36:43.900 --> 00:36:49.600 Yeah, if I assume the best about us, and the generations of church leaders before us, 00:36:50.360 --> 00:36:52.380 that was never the intent. 00:36:53.420 --> 00:36:56.560 But it just, it creeps up on you. 00:36:56.940 --> 00:36:59.420 And I look for our generation, the millennials, 00:36:59.420 --> 00:37:01.140 who have now taken leadership of the church. 00:37:01.700 --> 00:37:03.760 What will be the thing that creeps up on them? 00:37:04.580 --> 00:37:06.680 Like, when you go to build a building, 00:37:06.680 --> 00:37:11.700 and you make the case to raise the money about, 00:37:12.680 --> 00:37:16.720 we need to provide more seats so more people can come, 00:37:17.240 --> 00:37:21.820 and you don't tie the knot around so that you have a place to bring your friend, 00:37:22.820 --> 00:37:26.060 or we're out of space, it becomes a convenience issue. 00:37:27.080 --> 00:37:29.120 It's a slight off. 00:37:29.560 --> 00:37:31.740 It's not like a 180 degree off. 00:37:31.960 --> 00:37:38.800 It's like, you know, part of what I talked about in the talk that Jeff was referencing, 00:37:39.420 --> 00:37:40.540 and he hit these. 00:37:41.120 --> 00:37:44.760 If you think about the engagement models of the last 60, 70 years of the church, 00:37:45.500 --> 00:37:47.360 Sunday school model with a welcome center. 00:37:48.020 --> 00:37:50.040 Go to the welcome center, get an affinity, 00:37:50.380 --> 00:37:53.200 you know, young married, small Sunday school classmates at 930 over there. 00:37:53.380 --> 00:37:54.320 Worked great, right? 00:37:54.640 --> 00:37:56.900 We moved from that into the programmatic model. 00:37:56.900 --> 00:38:05.080 And here's where I believe we probably really didn't know what we had done. 00:38:05.540 --> 00:38:09.180 The programmatic era was the more hooks you have in the water, 00:38:09.600 --> 00:38:13.200 meaning the more programs you have, the more people you'll catch. 00:38:13.820 --> 00:38:16.460 So I'm going to start a daycare and a sports ministry. 00:38:16.680 --> 00:38:18.740 And then the businesses popped up around it. 00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:22.620 We had mops and grief share and divorce care and all these businesses that fed. 00:38:23.320 --> 00:38:31.280 And the felt-need programmatic church, to me, is part of what led to what you're saying, 00:38:31.460 --> 00:38:36.840 that we engage people through their felt need and didn't move them all the way. 00:38:36.980 --> 00:38:39.220 When you follow Jesus, it means dying to self. 00:38:39.500 --> 00:38:43.500 So if your class or your program goes away, it's not the end of the world. 00:38:44.460 --> 00:38:50.680 It's like, you know, and then the simple church, purpose-driven, growth track era. 00:38:52.640 --> 00:38:57.180 And then I'm just like, I am excited that we may be going back here to this platform, 00:38:57.560 --> 00:39:08.980 guerrilla warfare, grassroots, stripping away all the titles, missional, attractional, communal. 00:39:09.620 --> 00:39:12.000 And just, hey, just go hang with your neighbor. 00:39:12.460 --> 00:39:20.780 Because your 99 isn't tracking with any of those church leadership think tank kind of things. 00:39:20.940 --> 00:39:21.840 They're just living life. 00:39:21.920 --> 00:39:22.340 They're stressed. 00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:23.120 Their marriage sucks. 00:39:23.220 --> 00:39:25.100 And they don't know how to parent their teenager. 00:39:25.800 --> 00:39:27.660 And yet we have the answer. 00:39:28.820 --> 00:39:31.720 So that was a long-winded answer, Ray. 00:39:31.820 --> 00:39:38.460 But, you know, I do think the programmatic church, if you subscribe to that methodology, 00:39:38.820 --> 00:39:44.240 you built lots of square footage and you, you know, it really killed a lot of the invite. 00:39:44.380 --> 00:39:47.060 And the invite became, look how great a church I have. 00:39:47.100 --> 00:39:48.000 They have a sports league. 00:39:48.060 --> 00:39:48.800 Will you come to that? 00:39:48.860 --> 00:39:49.940 So the intent was there. 00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:58.180 But it slipped from being a personal, I'm sharing Jesus personally with another human being. 00:39:58.320 --> 00:39:59.980 And it, again, slid into institutional. 00:40:00.460 --> 00:40:05.640 No, and the only reason I ask that is because I'm constantly thinking about, too, like, what's this going to look like post-COVID? 00:40:05.700 --> 00:40:11.240 And I know a lot of church leaders are in terms of, oh, boy, so now we don't have necessarily all those attractional pieces. 00:40:11.760 --> 00:40:13.160 Who's coming back with us? 00:40:13.540 --> 00:40:25.600 And I think when you talk about church's platform, I think that's more encouraging because now we're equipping them to do, to be the church where they're at as opposed to come to church because they may not come back to church. 00:40:25.700 --> 00:40:32.000 But if we're equipping them to be the church where they're at, then we at least have hope that this is, that we're fulfilling the mission, which is what we're supposed to be doing. 00:40:32.360 --> 00:40:40.420 Yeah, it's, you know, for me, again, I know some people get hung up on labels, but I'm thrilled about the future of what the church could be. 00:40:40.420 --> 00:40:46.880 Because, number one, the millennials, if you ask any millennial, even a millennial church leader, what do they want in life? 00:40:47.100 --> 00:40:51.400 They want to have a good team that they're a part of and contribute. 00:40:52.060 --> 00:40:55.540 They want to not crash and burn and screw up their life. 00:40:55.900 --> 00:40:57.660 They want to raise their kids well. 00:40:58.100 --> 00:41:00.880 And they're relational, man, at their very core. 00:41:01.140 --> 00:41:03.260 Like, they want to hang out more. 00:41:03.860 --> 00:41:07.520 Like, I always, the men's ministry example is a classic, you know. 00:41:08.580 --> 00:41:13.800 A generation of men were greatly changed in their life because of the Promise Keepers movement. 00:41:14.800 --> 00:41:18.800 And every one of those leaders came back to their church and wanted to start a men's breakfast. 00:41:19.880 --> 00:41:28.620 And if your church is like our church, those boomer men did not understand why millennials wouldn't show up at the men's breakfast that's at 730 on Saturday morning. 00:41:29.260 --> 00:41:33.220 And I just kept telling our guys, guys, they're not like you. 00:41:33.520 --> 00:41:35.220 They already have community. 00:41:35.480 --> 00:41:39.400 They're hanging out in the craft beer bars and the cigar lounges. 00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:44.040 And they're playing cornhole with their friends once a week, twice a week. 00:41:44.120 --> 00:41:45.520 They're already relating. 00:41:45.740 --> 00:41:54.480 So, again, I am the most hopeful what the church could be going forward because I think we have that relational DNA in this next generation in spades. 00:41:55.100 --> 00:42:09.820 Combined then with what we're seeing during COVID, which is, again, I would argue the latent invite energy in the American church is at the highest level it has been in generations. 00:42:10.960 --> 00:42:20.580 What church leaders must figure out, this is where the innovation comes in, how do we steward that latent potential that's already in the system right now? 00:42:20.780 --> 00:42:23.880 And that's what's gotten me all the way back to platform thinking. 00:42:24.460 --> 00:42:25.980 Like, it has to simplify. 00:42:26.560 --> 00:42:27.940 It has to become relational. 00:42:28.760 --> 00:42:31.060 It has to become all the things we've been saying here. 00:42:31.420 --> 00:42:32.500 I love that. 00:42:33.040 --> 00:42:36.920 And we're going to run out of time because I wanted to ask another question. 00:42:37.020 --> 00:42:38.240 We'll bring it back on the podcast. 00:42:38.580 --> 00:42:46.300 Stadia is doing, and you know this, we talked about this idea of planting digital-only churches, starting a cohort in August. 00:42:46.780 --> 00:42:49.520 And so, stadiachurchplanning.org slash digital. 00:42:49.840 --> 00:42:59.020 If you're interested in planting a church that only exists in digital space, this idea of a church's platform to me is intriguing in context with that digital-only. 00:42:59.160 --> 00:43:06.080 And so, I want to have a completely separate conversation with you on that that's not today because I just totally want to unpack that in that context. 00:43:06.140 --> 00:43:08.740 But here's where I want to land, and I'm going to slap a date on it. 00:43:09.080 --> 00:43:11.120 So, today, it's Thursday, July 9th. 00:43:11.180 --> 00:43:15.360 And the reason I'm slapping a date on it is because things change on a regular basis. 00:43:15.500 --> 00:43:18.140 This podcast is going to publish Monday, July 13th. 00:43:18.840 --> 00:43:24.320 So, today, July 13th, we're in the middle of racial chaos. 00:43:25.260 --> 00:43:26.540 COVID is a thing. 00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:33.800 In some areas down here in Miami, if you're watching the YouTube, you're seeing Ray wearing a physical mask. 00:43:33.960 --> 00:43:35.920 It's that bad in Florida, in Miami. 00:43:36.120 --> 00:43:38.140 I, myself, have not set foot outside my house. 00:43:38.320 --> 00:43:40.640 But the reality is that it's a mess. 00:43:41.140 --> 00:43:44.220 I'm interested in this idea of what you're talking about. 00:43:44.860 --> 00:43:48.200 And so, I'm interested in transitioning and moving my people. 00:43:48.760 --> 00:43:52.560 I'm recognizing, as a church, I'm recognizing, hey, you know what? 00:43:52.900 --> 00:43:58.600 Over the past three or four months, we've been very focused on our 99s. 00:43:58.980 --> 00:44:02.320 We've really, in this season, we've not gotten to our ones. 00:44:02.960 --> 00:44:07.760 And we can't, I had a church tell me this week, Jeff, we can no longer pause ministry. 00:44:08.260 --> 00:44:10.280 We have to figure out how to do this. 00:44:10.800 --> 00:44:14.560 We've been on pause for three or four months, focused on the 99s. 00:44:14.600 --> 00:44:16.300 It's time to get back on the ones. 00:44:17.380 --> 00:44:18.900 Give me some practical advice. 00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:21.640 I want to switch to this new way of thinking. 00:44:21.880 --> 00:44:24.140 I want to start to adopt and to learn this. 00:44:24.520 --> 00:44:30.040 I want to learn how to focus on my ones, even in the midst of this chaotic July 2020. 00:44:30.920 --> 00:44:32.140 Where do I even start? 00:44:32.300 --> 00:44:33.240 How do I do this? 00:44:33.300 --> 00:44:33.960 Give me some advice. 00:44:34.340 --> 00:44:40.420 Well, and I would reinforce, I don't know if you saw the Barna study that just came out. 00:44:40.420 --> 00:44:45.240 Like this week that said that, yeah, good luck taking care of your 99s. 00:44:45.240 --> 00:44:49.380 Because if their numbers are accurate, a third have left already or something scary. 00:44:50.120 --> 00:44:57.840 And I would argue it's because during COVID, most of us have forgotten the Great Commission. 00:44:59.160 --> 00:45:05.060 It is about more and better and rallying yourself around that. 00:45:05.060 --> 00:45:15.960 So anyway, I believe discipleship and evangelism has always been linked in God's strategy for growing up us as Christ followers. 00:45:16.720 --> 00:45:19.760 And yeah, practical examples. 00:45:19.880 --> 00:45:28.360 So, you know, I would start if I were starting somewhere, I would start at just asking a few questions. 00:45:28.700 --> 00:45:34.320 Like, hey, what are my 99s feeling right now? 00:45:34.660 --> 00:45:35.820 What are their stressors? 00:45:35.880 --> 00:45:37.340 Like, I just did this with a team. 00:45:37.420 --> 00:45:41.460 I said, let's just talk about your 1 and your 99 because they're having the same stressors. 00:45:41.580 --> 00:45:42.360 These aren't different. 00:45:42.880 --> 00:45:43.860 We're not talking about. 00:45:44.300 --> 00:45:46.040 So let's start with the stressors. 00:45:46.440 --> 00:45:50.160 Now, is there anything in that list of stressors that you made for 99? 00:45:50.320 --> 00:45:51.400 You can just think about your own life. 00:45:51.460 --> 00:45:52.300 I mean, I got teenagers. 00:45:52.560 --> 00:45:56.880 Like, we're trying to figure out how we're going to go back to school and there's going to be two days and online. 00:45:57.040 --> 00:45:59.420 I'm like, my wife just stresses out. 00:45:59.540 --> 00:46:01.560 It's like, it's stressing us. 00:46:02.300 --> 00:46:15.580 And then the second question behind that, I would say as a church leader, what could you provide them that would help practically, tools that would help them bring down their stress level? 00:46:16.580 --> 00:46:21.440 And I gave a ton of examples through our talk, man. 00:46:21.540 --> 00:46:29.760 But, you know, it's things like how do you work from home and still maintain professionalism? 00:46:29.880 --> 00:46:31.400 How do you manage? 00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:34.000 You're going to have distance learning kids. 00:46:34.080 --> 00:46:35.520 How do you keep them on a schedule? 00:46:36.320 --> 00:46:39.520 And these aren't things, you know, none of us are trained on these things in seminary. 00:46:40.340 --> 00:46:42.040 But just be human. 00:46:42.440 --> 00:46:48.460 Just, like, think about where people are at and let the church come alongside and help in that. 00:46:49.240 --> 00:46:59.780 So, you know, the practical stuff, I think anything we can do to have people think about and be mindful of helping their neighbors in any way. 00:47:00.360 --> 00:47:02.920 You know, we saw a lot of these strategies pop up. 00:47:03.080 --> 00:47:05.600 Neighborhood Facebook groups that 99 started. 00:47:09.040 --> 00:47:09.480 Yeah. 00:47:10.280 --> 00:47:13.180 Yeah, the Kona Ice Truck, you know, all those kinds of ideas. 00:47:13.380 --> 00:47:22.120 If you were getting started as a church, I probably, Jeff, think I do more in, like, just think about it this way and you'll get there. 00:47:22.460 --> 00:47:29.080 Like, you'll get the pragmatic things that I do, like, a whole ton of pragmatic deals. 00:47:29.160 --> 00:47:31.160 But I would start with the question, what are the stressors? 00:47:31.880 --> 00:47:37.260 What could we as a church do to help backfill that and help them help their neighbors backfill those stressors? 00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:40.900 And you're going to come up with a whole list of brainstormed ideas around it. 00:47:40.980 --> 00:47:45.520 Yeah, just get people being human, starting the conversation, talking with others. 00:47:45.640 --> 00:47:47.340 Get to know the neighbors. 00:47:47.500 --> 00:47:52.220 Get to know, figure out who you're going to target within your circle of influence, who your ones are. 00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:59.340 And even just start to engage in some conversations with them and the needs will start to pop up. 00:47:59.340 --> 00:48:11.400 Yeah, I was just going to say, okay, if I'm just speaking directly to pastors right now, your 99 have invested in their neighbors at a level never seen before. 00:48:12.080 --> 00:48:17.040 How are you as a church leader going to steward that and encourage it and fan it into flame? 00:48:17.800 --> 00:48:21.580 And I don't think it can be an invite to a church service first online. 00:48:22.620 --> 00:48:25.380 It's like, get back to basics, man. 00:48:25.440 --> 00:48:26.960 We're in guerrilla warfare right now. 00:48:27.360 --> 00:48:28.480 You know, it was interesting. 00:48:28.640 --> 00:48:30.780 I saw, I haven't read that Barna report yet. 00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:34.700 It's something popped up on my Twitter where it was like, they're not looking for a church service. 00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:37.980 They were looking for prayer and shepherding out of the church. 00:48:38.060 --> 00:48:39.580 Like, it was completely different. 00:48:39.960 --> 00:48:42.080 We'll put a link to it in the show notes. 00:48:42.080 --> 00:48:52.380 But it was interesting, like the go-to for what people are looking for from the church in this COVID season isn't what we were providing. 00:48:52.840 --> 00:48:55.780 You know, and once again, it's not that content. 00:48:56.780 --> 00:48:58.100 It's the conversation. 00:48:58.340 --> 00:48:59.040 It's the relationship. 00:48:59.240 --> 00:48:59.840 It's the community. 00:49:00.100 --> 00:49:01.220 It's the pastoring. 00:49:01.360 --> 00:49:02.080 It's the shepherding. 00:49:02.220 --> 00:49:02.840 It's the listening. 00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:05.700 It's the other parts of that. 00:49:05.820 --> 00:49:07.380 And honestly, I'll be transparent. 00:49:07.520 --> 00:49:08.180 I got it wrong. 00:49:09.360 --> 00:49:11.720 March, I'm telling churches, create more content. 00:49:12.260 --> 00:49:16.880 April, I'm looking around and realizing, hey, it's not content they're looking for. 00:49:17.200 --> 00:49:19.120 And so, first off, I'm sorry. 00:49:19.320 --> 00:49:25.100 Secondly, learn from mistakes and let's shift towards that relational approach. 00:49:25.460 --> 00:49:27.940 So, hey, Doug, man, thank you for jumping on the podcast. 00:49:28.100 --> 00:49:28.940 This has been great. 00:49:29.600 --> 00:49:33.020 Ray, as we're landing the plane, any closing thoughts on your side? 00:49:33.020 --> 00:49:43.420 Yeah, we're still, I'm still intrigued as far as what the church would look like as a platform in terms of connecting with and to people and how some of that, like, I don't even think we've even tapped the surface as far as what some of this means. 00:49:43.540 --> 00:49:48.380 And I'm sure Doug is even learning in a lot of different ways as far as what the ins and outs is. 00:49:48.460 --> 00:49:50.940 But, you know, it's kind of like how we talk about a lot here on the pod. 00:49:51.120 --> 00:49:53.060 It's just try it and see where it leads. 00:49:53.580 --> 00:49:57.840 And so, Doug, I'm really encouraged by what you guys are doing and how you're equipping your people to engage their community. 00:49:57.840 --> 00:50:04.440 Because, especially in this season where you got nowhere to invite them to, you've got to find a way to reach them. 00:50:04.800 --> 00:50:07.440 And so, it's a very fascinating thing that you're doing. 00:50:07.520 --> 00:50:08.060 I love it, man. 00:50:08.240 --> 00:50:19.280 There's a lot more built into, actually, Doug, why don't you talk about Intentional Church a little bit as you're landing the plane as well, the actual book and your services and what you're doing through IC. 00:50:19.480 --> 00:50:26.420 Yeah, guys, we, you know, we got on this kind of big idea that really has matured in the last two to three years. 00:50:26.420 --> 00:50:31.940 And that is the idea of a biblically-based church leadership operating system. 00:50:32.720 --> 00:50:36.920 And all that means is what you would think about an operating system for your computer and phone. 00:50:37.380 --> 00:50:42.780 Like, it aligns us like we've never been aligned before in language, in thinking, in approach. 00:50:43.740 --> 00:50:46.440 It has church OS is what we call it. 00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:54.140 It's got built into it, thought around every domain of church you have to lead and manage no matter what size you are. 00:50:54.800 --> 00:50:58.920 It is execution built in, so it's not just the vision, strategic planning side. 00:50:59.200 --> 00:51:02.220 And so, with that, we have multiple things. 00:51:02.300 --> 00:51:08.440 We just had a book released with Thomas Nelson, Harper Collins at the end of March, which you can pick up and read more about. 00:51:08.520 --> 00:51:13.400 First four chapters give you real good thinking behind our approach. 00:51:14.100 --> 00:51:31.200 And then we launched a digital experience called the Activate Experience, just about six weeks into COVID, where you can actually start using the book and applying this framework and thinking to planning, which we would argue, I know we're a little biased, but your planning has had to morph. 00:51:31.560 --> 00:51:35.140 And if you don't have a framework, we actually have supplied that in church OS. 00:51:35.840 --> 00:51:45.340 And yeah, and then we do on the ground, like installing the church OS system and then coaching it throughout a year with you as well. 00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:48.060 And we've already picked up way back up in doing that. 00:51:48.120 --> 00:51:52.860 I've been on the road quite a bit, which it's very odd to fly right now, guys. 00:51:53.020 --> 00:51:54.660 I'm just telling you, it's weird. 00:51:55.480 --> 00:52:01.880 But I'm thankful that Southwest has kept empty middle seats because some of those American airlines wouldn't scare me, man, when you see those planes. 00:52:02.180 --> 00:52:03.780 Yeah, I don't think I'd fly American either. 00:52:03.900 --> 00:52:08.120 And that was like my frequent flyer company that I would go through. 00:52:08.260 --> 00:52:13.100 But we'll put a link to Intentional Churches as well as the book, Intentional Churches. 00:52:13.500 --> 00:52:14.880 Was there a new book that came out? 00:52:15.000 --> 00:52:18.180 Because I thought Intentional Churches was, was Intentional Churches what just came out? 00:52:18.500 --> 00:52:22.080 Yes, Intentional Churches, our trade book, just came out the end of March. 00:52:22.080 --> 00:52:27.180 Yeah, I thought it was, was further along, older than that, but that, that's excellent. 00:52:27.520 --> 00:52:31.840 And I just want to call out that Jim Torberland just stuck his head in Ray's window to say hi. 00:52:31.940 --> 00:52:32.660 That was, that was funny. 00:52:33.000 --> 00:52:35.620 You don't see that happening every other day, but evidently it does. 00:52:35.900 --> 00:52:37.880 He always finds a way to make it into a pod, man. 00:52:37.940 --> 00:52:38.720 I'm telling you. 00:52:40.180 --> 00:52:43.100 Healthy site guy always finds a way and he always does. 00:52:43.500 --> 00:52:44.900 Tell Jim I said hi. 00:52:45.280 --> 00:52:45.620 Will do. 00:52:46.060 --> 00:52:51.900 And, you know, if you don't put this out in the recording, tell him, he needs to come out to Vegas 00:52:51.900 --> 00:52:53.140 for a glass of wine, man. 00:52:53.160 --> 00:52:53.700 I'll treat him. 00:52:55.340 --> 00:52:55.660 Boy. 00:52:56.200 --> 00:52:57.080 We'll, we'll include that. 00:52:57.160 --> 00:53:00.280 We've said much worse on this podcast than that, but that's, that's awesome. 00:53:00.640 --> 00:53:01.680 Hey, so we're, we're going to wrap. 00:53:01.760 --> 00:53:03.960 Thanks for joining, uh, for Doug, for Ray. 00:53:04.040 --> 00:53:05.300 This is Jeff with The Church Digital. 00:53:05.700 --> 00:53:08.300 Thanks for jumping on this one and we'll see you next time here on the pod. 00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:08.940 Y'all have a good day.