WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.680 All right, we got episode 88 of the Church Digital Podcast, 00:00:02.820 --> 00:00:04.460 powered once again by State of Church Planning. 00:00:04.580 --> 00:00:05.040 Jeff here. 00:00:05.460 --> 00:00:07.660 I loved this conversation. 00:00:07.780 --> 00:00:08.920 We're bringing in a church planner. 00:00:09.280 --> 00:00:11.200 Hey, churches that have been around for a while, 00:00:11.340 --> 00:00:13.140 getting ready to hang up because it's a church planner, 00:00:13.560 --> 00:00:14.040 stick around. 00:00:14.100 --> 00:00:15.340 You need to learn something here. 00:00:15.520 --> 00:00:19.060 Because he makes this statement up front, phenomenal. 00:00:19.360 --> 00:00:21.340 Ali Ruhi is a church planner out in California, 00:00:21.860 --> 00:00:22.640 Center Set Church. 00:00:22.940 --> 00:00:24.200 He says these words, 00:00:24.620 --> 00:00:27.600 my church is healthier because of COVID. 00:00:28.140 --> 00:00:29.360 I'm going to be straight up right here, 00:00:29.360 --> 00:00:30.900 listening to you, talking to you right now. 00:00:31.180 --> 00:00:33.140 I have never heard a church say that. 00:00:33.140 --> 00:00:36.640 My church is healthier because of COVID. 00:00:37.400 --> 00:00:41.260 Ali starts to tell stories of engagement rising in his church. 00:00:41.660 --> 00:00:43.020 Weekend attendance is down. 00:00:43.840 --> 00:00:45.200 His small groups have tripled. 00:00:45.640 --> 00:00:46.660 Giving is up. 00:00:47.100 --> 00:00:50.540 My church is healthier because of COVID. 00:00:51.580 --> 00:00:52.400 So let me ask you a question. 00:00:52.520 --> 00:00:53.780 Is your church healthier? 00:00:54.120 --> 00:00:57.060 Or are you not even sure what's going on in your church? 00:00:57.440 --> 00:01:00.280 This, this church, this is why you need to listen to this conversation. 00:01:00.780 --> 00:01:01.500 Phenomenal stuff. 00:01:01.640 --> 00:01:04.820 Ali's, as a planter, is even challenging me on some things like, 00:01:05.040 --> 00:01:08.700 wow, I've never really thought of it that way. 00:01:08.960 --> 00:01:11.220 And this is the conversation that you need to hear. 00:01:11.580 --> 00:01:13.740 And this is the approach you're going to have throughout this. 00:01:13.820 --> 00:01:19.420 So for the conversation, we're bringing in Ali Ruhi, once again, lead pastor, Somerset, excuse me, 00:01:19.500 --> 00:01:21.200 Centerset Church in California. 00:01:21.460 --> 00:01:25.500 We're bringing in Emily Diaz, project manager with Stadia Church Planning. 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:28.780 Emily's co-hosted a number of the Church Digital Podcasts here recently. 00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:33.480 Bringing in myself, Jeff, with the Church Digital and Stadia Church Planning. 00:01:33.480 --> 00:01:37.580 In a conversation that I'm, once again, reiterating what Ali said. 00:01:37.980 --> 00:01:41.120 My church is healthier because of COVID. 00:01:41.600 --> 00:01:43.000 Okay, everybody, here you go. 00:01:43.480 --> 00:01:44.420 Thank you all for this. 00:01:44.840 --> 00:01:46.320 Hey, you know what, Ali? 00:01:46.780 --> 00:01:48.720 Just maybe even to kick us off, get us started here. 00:01:48.780 --> 00:01:49.640 Tell us a little about yourself. 00:01:50.100 --> 00:01:52.880 Tell us your story, ministry story, your church. 00:01:53.280 --> 00:01:54.260 Tell us a little bit about you. 00:01:54.920 --> 00:01:56.600 Yeah, born and raised in a Muslim home. 00:01:58.540 --> 00:02:00.200 No one in my family is Christian. 00:02:00.760 --> 00:02:04.180 Funny, I'm actually preaching a sermon on why God exists this week. 00:02:04.580 --> 00:02:08.540 And talking about how my neighbors were, one was a Mormon, one was a Buddhist, and one was a Muslim. 00:02:09.240 --> 00:02:11.440 I didn't meet a Christian until college. 00:02:12.040 --> 00:02:14.100 And they drank, party just like I did. 00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:16.580 And they'd wake me up on Sunday mornings and say, let's go to church. 00:02:16.680 --> 00:02:17.680 I'm like, no. 00:02:18.860 --> 00:02:19.660 Just why? 00:02:20.260 --> 00:02:21.120 Let's sleep in. 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:23.620 And their witness was so terrible. 00:02:24.220 --> 00:02:28.660 And it wasn't until my sister just unconditionally loved me. 00:02:29.160 --> 00:02:30.660 She didn't shove anything down my throat. 00:02:31.240 --> 00:02:33.260 And she was the first Christian I met. 00:02:33.800 --> 00:02:35.220 And it started me on a two-year journey. 00:02:35.740 --> 00:02:38.880 I got saved at 24 later in life. 00:02:39.460 --> 00:02:50.500 And then I just had what I call encounters with God, burning bush experiences where God was calling me to Him at a deeper level each time. 00:02:51.020 --> 00:02:53.360 And people say, why did you plant a church? 00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:56.880 And I'm like, I've been pursuing Jesus passionately for 10 years. 00:02:57.000 --> 00:02:58.800 This is just the expression of that relationship. 00:03:01.360 --> 00:03:04.460 My story is interesting because I was a software engineer for 15 years. 00:03:04.460 --> 00:03:07.420 I was in the tech world, making tech money. 00:03:07.800 --> 00:03:13.180 And to come out of that was financially hard and emotionally hard. 00:03:13.180 --> 00:03:16.020 Because this is the first church I've been on staff at. 00:03:16.580 --> 00:03:19.760 So I'm learning on the fly how to fly the plane. 00:03:21.320 --> 00:03:22.440 And it's hard. 00:03:22.980 --> 00:03:24.080 This is a hard job. 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:27.700 But at the same time, it's a calling. 00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:29.160 So God gives you grace. 00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:30.180 He gives you empowerment. 00:03:30.980 --> 00:03:33.580 But it doesn't take away the hardness of it. 00:03:34.140 --> 00:03:35.240 If that makes sense. 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:36.960 I'm just curious. 00:03:37.100 --> 00:03:38.900 This isn't even the conversation I have. 00:03:39.240 --> 00:03:40.340 But what's... 00:03:40.340 --> 00:03:42.000 So no church staff experience. 00:03:42.240 --> 00:03:43.980 You go and plant a church. 00:03:44.220 --> 00:03:45.260 What's been the biggest surprise? 00:03:45.640 --> 00:03:48.520 What's been the thing that you weren't expecting that's reality for you? 00:03:49.960 --> 00:03:51.000 People management. 00:03:52.260 --> 00:03:54.840 Just assuming everyone's driven, type A like me. 00:03:55.280 --> 00:03:57.020 And it's totally not the case at all. 00:03:57.580 --> 00:03:57.980 What? 00:03:58.540 --> 00:03:58.980 Yeah. 00:03:59.000 --> 00:03:59.220 What? 00:03:59.340 --> 00:04:00.060 It's not? 00:04:01.060 --> 00:04:03.960 I think learning the Enneagram is helpful. 00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:05.600 Not to project myself onto others. 00:04:06.120 --> 00:04:11.160 That everyone does not like the direct, in-your-face leadership style. 00:04:12.680 --> 00:04:18.600 Just learning and growing that people are twos and they can't say no. 00:04:19.800 --> 00:04:22.600 And saying no for them has helped a lot. 00:04:23.580 --> 00:04:24.800 Just little things like that. 00:04:25.320 --> 00:04:26.120 Let me guess. 00:04:26.300 --> 00:04:27.200 You're an eight. 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:27.960 Yes. 00:04:28.260 --> 00:04:29.080 Big time. 00:04:29.700 --> 00:04:31.580 Me too. 00:04:31.760 --> 00:04:33.760 We have a room full of eights right now. 00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:34.720 That's... 00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:34.920 Yeah. 00:04:35.180 --> 00:04:37.820 This is going to be a scary conversation right here. 00:04:40.160 --> 00:04:45.120 There's so many aspects of church planning that seminary does not prepare you for. 00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:47.800 You almost need an MBA more than a seminary degree. 00:04:48.380 --> 00:04:48.500 But... 00:04:48.500 --> 00:04:48.720 Yeah. 00:04:49.720 --> 00:04:51.220 That's neither here nor there. 00:04:51.400 --> 00:04:53.780 So tell us a little bit about your church plant. 00:04:53.880 --> 00:04:54.640 When you planted. 00:04:55.040 --> 00:04:56.120 Where you're at. 00:04:56.460 --> 00:04:56.820 Sure. 00:04:57.360 --> 00:04:59.400 This September will be three years. 00:04:59.540 --> 00:05:00.720 So we're coming up on three years. 00:05:00.760 --> 00:05:01.840 We're about two and a half years old. 00:05:02.720 --> 00:05:05.760 We planted in Silicon Valley. 00:05:05.880 --> 00:05:08.960 So it's like Facebook, Google, Microsoft, Apple. 00:05:08.960 --> 00:05:10.480 They're all like 15 minutes away. 00:05:11.340 --> 00:05:15.260 The people here, what I call, are the most pagan in America. 00:05:15.400 --> 00:05:18.160 We're the most unchurched. 00:05:18.160 --> 00:05:19.960 They're the wealthiest people in America. 00:05:20.300 --> 00:05:21.660 And they're also the stingiest. 00:05:21.760 --> 00:05:23.980 It's like those three intersecting. 00:05:24.180 --> 00:05:26.140 They're the stingiest, the wealthiest, and the most pagan. 00:05:26.940 --> 00:05:28.880 It's just evidence that the gospel hasn't come in. 00:05:30.060 --> 00:05:33.320 And where we planted, we planted, it's an outdoor mall. 00:05:33.860 --> 00:05:36.000 Think of like Rodeo Drive, LA area. 00:05:36.120 --> 00:05:38.460 But that version of it in the Bay Area. 00:05:39.140 --> 00:05:41.300 And then there's a hotel on the strip. 00:05:41.500 --> 00:05:42.820 And we do church in the hotel. 00:05:42.820 --> 00:05:45.680 So you can get Gucci and Jesus in the same day if you wanted to. 00:05:45.780 --> 00:05:48.720 And so we reach a very, very, very affluent community. 00:05:49.260 --> 00:05:51.920 There are people in our community that walk to church. 00:05:52.380 --> 00:05:54.900 And they pay $6,500 for a three-bedroom apartment. 00:05:55.260 --> 00:05:59.100 And they tithe $20 a month. 00:05:59.240 --> 00:06:00.400 How do you balance that? 00:06:00.620 --> 00:06:05.080 What tensions are you pulling to try to figure out how to overcome that? 00:06:05.180 --> 00:06:07.580 Because, I mean, you can't afford that as a church plant, right? 00:06:07.700 --> 00:06:08.460 So where are you? 00:06:08.660 --> 00:06:10.960 I think if you ask 10 different pastors, 10 different answers. 00:06:11.440 --> 00:06:15.340 What we've discovered is we want to create a place where you can belong 00:06:15.340 --> 00:06:16.240 before you believe. 00:06:16.500 --> 00:06:21.540 So a place where they can feel welcome and loved and accepted 00:06:21.540 --> 00:06:23.400 regardless of where they are on their journey. 00:06:24.980 --> 00:06:30.600 But in the same way that, you know, God challenges and God, you know, 00:06:31.440 --> 00:06:33.160 He doesn't leave you the way that you are. 00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:36.860 His love changes you even though it's uncomfortable 00:06:36.860 --> 00:06:38.000 because it's what's best for you. 00:06:38.660 --> 00:06:42.200 And so we do that primarily through our groups. 00:06:42.380 --> 00:06:45.200 Our groups are, we train our small group leaders to be, 00:06:45.340 --> 00:06:48.800 pastors, the expectations are super high on, 00:06:49.540 --> 00:06:52.660 like you can be a Satan worshiper and join our dream team. 00:06:53.160 --> 00:06:59.380 There is no salvation requirement to stand by the door and hand out a hello 00:06:59.380 --> 00:07:02.320 or give out the today's bulletin or whatever. 00:07:03.140 --> 00:07:04.480 Literally, you can be a Satan worshiper. 00:07:04.980 --> 00:07:06.460 And some people, that would freak them out. 00:07:07.440 --> 00:07:09.360 It's a place where you can belong before you believe. 00:07:09.540 --> 00:07:11.900 And as you get deeper and deeper in the organization, 00:07:12.780 --> 00:07:15.720 the character expectations continue to rise. 00:07:16.860 --> 00:07:19.640 And I'd say it's the highest for our small group leaders 00:07:19.640 --> 00:07:24.820 because who they are is going to be replicated in those people. 00:07:26.420 --> 00:07:30.600 How you do life, those 10 or 12 people that are in your group, 00:07:31.000 --> 00:07:31.960 they're going to copy you. 00:07:32.780 --> 00:07:36.660 And we want them, that copy being done the right way, if that makes sense. 00:07:37.740 --> 00:07:38.880 And so it's a journey. 00:07:39.060 --> 00:07:42.020 It takes, on average, of someone to come to our community 00:07:42.020 --> 00:07:46.100 and to begin to give for the very first time is six months. 00:07:47.060 --> 00:07:49.980 And so, whereas in, let's say a church in, let's say the South, 00:07:50.100 --> 00:07:52.600 they say, if you don't tithe, you're not a faithful Christian. 00:07:53.460 --> 00:07:55.420 Where we say, hey, tip. 00:07:56.360 --> 00:07:58.880 If you've never given to God, throw in a tip. 00:07:59.460 --> 00:08:00.180 Tip to God. 00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:03.300 And then we challenge them, hey, if you've tipped, 00:08:04.060 --> 00:08:06.200 let's give consistently and see what happens to your heart. 00:08:07.800 --> 00:08:10.600 And then the next babysitter is, if you've been giving consistently, 00:08:10.740 --> 00:08:11.800 why not go to a percentage? 00:08:13.300 --> 00:08:19.200 And then from a percentage, we say, hey, how about you try faithfully giving the tithe? 00:08:19.480 --> 00:08:23.220 And then I challenge all the Christians who think they're like good with God, 00:08:23.300 --> 00:08:25.700 hey, the scriptures have to say sacrificial giving. 00:08:25.820 --> 00:08:26.860 Let's give above and beyond. 00:08:26.980 --> 00:08:29.900 Let's bring our offerings to God as well, our tithes and offerings. 00:08:30.280 --> 00:08:32.240 So I'm challenging everyone in the room. 00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:38.860 And you can see it, it takes time, but you see the slow growth. 00:08:39.160 --> 00:08:42.120 And for us in our church, because we're reaching a lot of unchurched people, 00:08:42.460 --> 00:08:44.200 we celebrate as a staff. 00:08:44.580 --> 00:08:49.380 This guy gave 50 bucks, even though we know he's making 20 grand a month. 00:08:51.080 --> 00:08:54.220 It's just, you got to change the metric for celebration. 00:08:54.560 --> 00:08:58.720 The whole belong before you believe, like that, that's an interesting phrasing. 00:08:58.840 --> 00:09:02.460 Often when we look at, when we talk a lot of obviously church online here on the podcast, 00:09:03.020 --> 00:09:05.880 with a lot of the language that, as a matter of fact, right before I jumped on this, 00:09:05.880 --> 00:09:13.020 I had this conversation with another guy, that people tend to find community before they find Christ. 00:09:13.220 --> 00:09:13.480 Big time. 00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:16.780 They engage in community in online environments. 00:09:16.940 --> 00:09:23.080 And so even that belong before you believe is an intricate philosophy that makes, 00:09:23.440 --> 00:09:28.180 I would think, I would think a transition into online ministry helpful. 00:09:28.180 --> 00:09:31.920 Because it sounds like you're already thinking in online methods, 00:09:31.920 --> 00:09:36.280 and maybe you being in the heart of Silicon Valley, like really helps towards that. 00:09:36.520 --> 00:09:42.840 So what lessons, what observations, what are you seeing through your church plant here online? 00:09:43.240 --> 00:09:46.980 Yeah, so pre-COVID, I knew there was always a percentage of people that would come 00:09:46.980 --> 00:09:48.440 that really never engaged. 00:09:48.780 --> 00:09:53.040 So let me give you metrics so you kind of understand what was before and what we're seeing now. 00:09:53.040 --> 00:09:55.420 Pre-COVID, we were averaging about 190 people. 00:09:56.260 --> 00:10:01.040 Of those 190, we had between 55 and 65 people in groups. 00:10:01.540 --> 00:10:09.000 So maybe a third or depending on the math, a fourth of our people engaging in small groups 00:10:09.000 --> 00:10:12.540 where that just always felt unhealthy, if that makes sense. 00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:16.880 But we did have other ways to measure engagement. 00:10:17.160 --> 00:10:21.480 We had, you know, a dream team where I called people who would serve at least once a month. 00:10:21.760 --> 00:10:24.340 That was like 80 people, more, like about half. 00:10:25.140 --> 00:10:32.020 And then numerically, you know, the giving was, I'm not sure if I should say numbers, 00:10:32.500 --> 00:10:38.060 but it was around, let's say, you know, 24K for a church plant. 00:10:38.860 --> 00:10:40.700 I'm not sure if I should say this, but I'm saying it. 00:10:41.580 --> 00:10:43.280 Post-COVID, right? 00:10:44.020 --> 00:10:48.400 I knew that there was always a group of people that just came on Sundays, but I never knew what it was. 00:10:49.560 --> 00:10:54.840 And post-COVID, now those, what I call Sunday-only Christians, they're gone. 00:10:55.460 --> 00:10:57.300 They don't engage in online worship anymore. 00:10:57.940 --> 00:11:01.940 And if you want to go look at the data with Barna, one-third of Christians who only came on Sundays, 00:11:02.400 --> 00:11:03.580 they don't even go to church anymore. 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:05.660 And I can see that with the numbers. 00:11:05.780 --> 00:11:12.120 There was this huge influx of people watching online, and every week after Easter, it's slowly been decreasing. 00:11:12.740 --> 00:11:16.020 But just because viewership is down doesn't mean engagement is down. 00:11:16.520 --> 00:11:25.480 So we literally called everyone in the first three weeks that called this church their home and have served and give and said, 00:11:25.580 --> 00:11:28.180 hey, this is going to be for a while. 00:11:28.640 --> 00:11:33.140 The best way that we can shepherd you and guide you along is not just the Sunday. 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:36.380 That is the small groups. 00:11:37.160 --> 00:11:43.140 And so we went from 50 people in groups to about 150 people in groups within one month. 00:11:45.040 --> 00:11:48.560 And we personally called everyone saying, you got to do this. 00:11:48.780 --> 00:11:54.200 Don't just YouTube us because your kid's going to distract you and whatnot. 00:11:54.200 --> 00:11:59.140 And we had no Zoom groups before, and we went all Zoom groups after. 00:12:01.400 --> 00:12:07.060 And then financially, for whatever reason, we didn't even ask for it. 00:12:07.460 --> 00:12:10.340 But like a lot of churches, they all do reoccurring giving. 00:12:10.640 --> 00:12:12.280 And they really geared their talks around. 00:12:12.580 --> 00:12:13.060 We didn't do that. 00:12:13.140 --> 00:12:17.260 We said, hey, for us to continue reaching more people, consider giving. 00:12:18.040 --> 00:12:20.540 And we always say, we're not going to tell you what to give. 00:12:20.940 --> 00:12:22.520 Pray to God and ask Him what He wants you to give. 00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:27.500 And March, we were down 20% giving. 00:12:27.880 --> 00:12:33.660 There's just this fear, this anxiety of like, I'm not sure if you guys remember, but like, 00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:35.520 they had no toilet paper in this country. 00:12:36.320 --> 00:12:38.220 You couldn't buy bottled water in America. 00:12:38.380 --> 00:12:38.920 It was crazy. 00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:44.220 I remember March 15th going to Costco, and there were 500 people in line that headed me 00:12:44.220 --> 00:12:45.740 to get into Costco. 00:12:47.480 --> 00:12:52.340 And so that fear really showed up financially in our church, 20%. 00:12:52.660 --> 00:12:58.900 But then once the fear started going down, normalcy started coming back, giving increased 00:12:58.900 --> 00:13:02.200 20%, what it was pre-COVID. 00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:03.520 And it stayed at that level. 00:13:03.780 --> 00:13:06.740 We're about $28,000, $29,000 every month. 00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:08.580 It increased $5,000. 00:13:08.860 --> 00:13:09.960 We didn't do anything. 00:13:11.880 --> 00:13:17.660 And so the engagement is still a huge factor in terms of people staying with our church. 00:13:17.800 --> 00:13:21.560 Now, I'll say this, the serving opportunities, gone. 00:13:22.460 --> 00:13:25.220 We needed 40, 50 people to run a Sunday service. 00:13:25.460 --> 00:13:26.100 That's gone. 00:13:26.180 --> 00:13:27.240 What do you do with those people? 00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:32.140 So what we decided is we need to, when we come out of the COVID, no one is going to give 00:13:32.140 --> 00:13:35.200 a damn what we preached on in our community. 00:13:35.380 --> 00:13:36.380 And I'm sorry if I said that word. 00:13:36.440 --> 00:13:37.120 No one cares. 00:13:37.640 --> 00:13:39.320 Unchurched people don't care about your sermon series. 00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:44.000 They care about how you love them during the worst event of their lifetime. 00:13:44.740 --> 00:13:48.320 And so we created what's called free groceries. 00:13:49.140 --> 00:13:52.720 You literally can go to our website, sign up for free groceries, $100 worth of groceries, 00:13:52.880 --> 00:13:54.520 and we'll get, you don't have to go to our church. 00:13:55.300 --> 00:13:57.020 And we'll drop them off at your house. 00:13:57.300 --> 00:13:57.660 Why? 00:13:57.800 --> 00:14:02.140 Because we want to be known as a community by what we give and not what we take. 00:14:03.100 --> 00:14:08.780 And those people were planting seeds in their heart for when we get out of this thing, because 00:14:08.780 --> 00:14:13.560 we will, and even now, potentially for them to want to engage in community. 00:14:13.740 --> 00:14:14.460 And we've seen that. 00:14:14.540 --> 00:14:17.020 People have come to our church because of the way that we've served them. 00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:24.040 For our kids, the biggest pain point among our team is, man, our kids are driving me insane. 00:14:24.640 --> 00:14:27.900 So we said, what can we do for the parents to make this time easier? 00:14:28.060 --> 00:14:34.440 So we, every month, we make a box for the kids of toys, of crafts and things that, and 00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:35.600 we do a sign up online. 00:14:35.940 --> 00:14:39.440 And we have parents every month that don't even go to our church, like, oh my gosh, thank you for 00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:40.040 doing this. 00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:42.000 And we'll drop it off at their house. 00:14:42.100 --> 00:14:42.740 Again, why? 00:14:42.800 --> 00:14:47.220 Because we want to be known in our community by what we give, not by what we take. 00:14:47.300 --> 00:14:54.220 No one is going to watch our sermons online when they're, there are those people that we, 00:14:54.620 --> 00:15:00.420 you share a YouTube video or you share a Facebook video and they watch it and they accept Christ. 00:15:00.580 --> 00:15:01.160 We've seen that. 00:15:01.160 --> 00:15:04.900 We've seen close to 30 people accept Christ in COVID. 00:15:05.340 --> 00:15:07.260 20 of those people have joined our church. 00:15:07.340 --> 00:15:08.520 We've baptized three of them. 00:15:08.740 --> 00:15:15.100 So there's still growth, but it's not at the same level it was when we were in a building. 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:15.760 It's different. 00:15:16.100 --> 00:15:18.620 It's, these are people that we have personal relationships with. 00:15:18.700 --> 00:15:20.340 So personal evangelism is primary. 00:15:20.760 --> 00:15:22.540 These are people that we're serving in the community. 00:15:23.740 --> 00:15:27.400 There's not a touch point before this, the YouTube video, they're not going to come. 00:15:28.400 --> 00:15:32.860 And so we've seen, is the Sunday, is the Sunday service important? 00:15:32.980 --> 00:15:33.260 Yes. 00:15:33.620 --> 00:15:34.560 Are groups important? 00:15:34.700 --> 00:15:35.000 Yes. 00:15:35.780 --> 00:15:36.960 Are serving the community? 00:15:37.060 --> 00:15:37.200 Yes. 00:15:37.280 --> 00:15:38.940 But it's, it's all three. 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:43.940 You can't just be a one trick pony anymore and rich people. 00:15:44.220 --> 00:15:48.860 And that's been the tough part for us as a church is if we really believe serving the 00:15:48.860 --> 00:15:51.820 community and groups, we got to give resources and time and energy. 00:15:51.920 --> 00:15:55.060 And so we've, we've actually taken people away from the Sunday service and said, go serve 00:15:55.060 --> 00:15:55.340 here. 00:15:56.360 --> 00:16:01.300 We'd rather have this be average and these be lifted up from terrible to good. 00:16:01.480 --> 00:16:02.320 Does that make sense what I'm saying? 00:16:02.560 --> 00:16:02.840 Oh yeah. 00:16:02.860 --> 00:16:04.160 There's so much wisdom off of you. 00:16:04.220 --> 00:16:06.160 What you just said, Emily, you were going to ask a question. 00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:06.540 Go for it. 00:16:06.540 --> 00:16:06.680 Yeah. 00:16:06.840 --> 00:16:09.140 I, so I hear your numbers about groups, right? 00:16:09.180 --> 00:16:14.540 So before you had around 50, now you have triple that number, a hundred and 150, which 00:16:14.540 --> 00:16:16.740 is mind blowing. 00:16:16.740 --> 00:16:20.480 The multiplication of that over such a short time. 00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:26.600 So what do you think it is in your community that has created just this, it seems like 00:16:26.600 --> 00:16:29.720 these, there's just like this yearning for people to be together. 00:16:30.260 --> 00:16:36.060 Well, I would say if you look at the unique people that would go to groups at any point 00:16:36.060 --> 00:16:41.380 in the last year, that number was around 80 or 90, but actively in groups right before 00:16:41.380 --> 00:16:42.760 COVID was around 55. 00:16:43.220 --> 00:16:46.880 And it's like, well, why, why did it go from 55 to one 50? 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:50.520 And I would ask that question. 00:16:50.520 --> 00:16:55.820 And one of the main reasons, and maybe it's just as us in Silicon Valley is the commute 00:16:55.820 --> 00:16:57.820 time was a massive killer. 00:16:58.720 --> 00:17:01.840 So imagine the average commute time is about an hour to go to work. 00:17:02.020 --> 00:17:05.360 You work at, if you work an eight hour day in Silicon Valley, you're probably unemployed. 00:17:06.800 --> 00:17:10.180 You imagine you're coming home, you haven't seen your wife and your kids all day. 00:17:10.420 --> 00:17:14.780 You're walking through the door at 630 because you just spend an hour and a half in traffic. 00:17:15.020 --> 00:17:16.420 You eat dinner, kiss your kids, blah, blah, blah. 00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:17.100 And then you go to group. 00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:18.900 It's a drive again to group. 00:17:19.500 --> 00:17:21.680 That was hard taxing on people. 00:17:22.060 --> 00:17:25.420 And in my mind, I'm like, why didn't we ever do online groups before? 00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:30.940 And so most of our groups are at 8 PM when all the kids are asleep for, because we did, 00:17:31.060 --> 00:17:34.300 we designed it so that the parents could participate without needing a babysitter. 00:17:34.900 --> 00:17:37.740 And literally overnight, people said, I don't have to drive. 00:17:38.780 --> 00:17:40.200 I don't need to worry about my kids. 00:17:40.300 --> 00:17:42.260 I can spend two hours with them before coming to group. 00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:43.420 This is a no brainer. 00:17:43.460 --> 00:17:44.360 I want to be a part of this. 00:17:44.740 --> 00:17:48.260 And then there was that, that sense of like, oh my gosh, I miss people. 00:17:49.220 --> 00:17:50.640 I want to be around people. 00:17:51.120 --> 00:17:55.000 There's a huge number of people that they can't get that on Sundays anymore. 00:17:56.280 --> 00:18:00.140 So they, they were, they needed to go, we encouraged them to go to groups to get that. 00:18:00.760 --> 00:18:00.900 Yeah. 00:18:01.460 --> 00:18:02.720 At least that's what we've seen. 00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:09.060 So then as a church planter, leadership development, like you said, even in your, your area, it takes 00:18:09.060 --> 00:18:11.960 the longest amount of time to develop a small group leader. 00:18:12.120 --> 00:18:15.280 You have an explosion in the amount of attendees. 00:18:15.620 --> 00:18:21.020 How did you handle having sufficient amount of small group leaders to lead these groups? 00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:21.880 Yeah. 00:18:22.220 --> 00:18:25.280 So we have been training them constantly. 00:18:25.280 --> 00:18:27.860 It's almost like there's a bench of people that were ready. 00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:34.740 One of my philosophies is you have to have people, you have to have the skeleton before 00:18:34.740 --> 00:18:35.340 the growth. 00:18:35.720 --> 00:18:39.020 You have to have the leaders before God can bring the people. 00:18:39.620 --> 00:18:40.760 It's not the other way around. 00:18:40.820 --> 00:18:43.260 Sometimes we think, oh God, if you just brought more people, I would develop more leaders. 00:18:43.740 --> 00:18:44.260 No, no, no, no, no. 00:18:45.100 --> 00:18:48.220 God won't overwhelm you with things that you can't handle. 00:18:48.700 --> 00:18:53.080 And every time that we've had growth is because we've done the hard work. 00:18:53.320 --> 00:18:56.180 For example, if you believe it's going to rain, go buy an umbrella. 00:18:56.900 --> 00:19:00.960 If you believe God's going to grow your church, go develop leaders so that he can give you that growth. 00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:11.980 And so we have painstakingly, a year before COVID, intentionally asked our life group leaders, your job is not to shepherd people. 00:19:12.500 --> 00:19:13.980 It's also to find an apprentice. 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:21.560 So we went from probably 12 to 13 group leaders to 24 group leaders over the course of a year. 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:26.760 So we were preparing for growth, not knowing how it was going to happen. 00:19:27.820 --> 00:19:34.400 And so where those leaders come from, most of them were developed right before COVID over the course of six to nine months prior. 00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:38.660 So we were positioned for this growth, believing God was going to bring it. 00:19:39.020 --> 00:19:41.520 We didn't know he was going to do it through COVID, but that's how it's. 00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:45.320 If you're waiting to grow leaders in COVID, it's already too late. 00:19:46.520 --> 00:19:47.940 Love the apprentice angle. 00:19:48.020 --> 00:19:49.620 We've talked a lot about that previously. 00:19:49.780 --> 00:19:55.260 The thing that really surprised me that I'm like, I don't know that I've heard of that before. 00:19:56.260 --> 00:19:57.740 The free groceries thing. 00:19:58.140 --> 00:20:00.160 So you're doing the groups, that's a piece. 00:20:00.280 --> 00:20:01.180 Serving's a piece. 00:20:01.260 --> 00:20:04.060 You're trying to be not just a one-trick pony. 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:06.320 Talk to me about the free groceries. 00:20:06.500 --> 00:20:10.460 Tell me some stories out of the free groceries, serving the people that are receiving. 00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:11.740 I want to know more about that. 00:20:12.180 --> 00:20:20.500 So I served at the Dream Center probably 10 years ago with Matthew Barnett, blown away by what he was doing. 00:20:20.660 --> 00:20:22.300 Took a bunch of high schoolers there. 00:20:23.020 --> 00:20:27.540 I've been to Mexico, Turkey, Jordan, a bunch of countries doing mission trips. 00:20:27.760 --> 00:20:30.900 That you see the practical need. 00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:32.680 It's not just that you're sharing evangelism. 00:20:33.020 --> 00:20:39.100 You're meeting practical needs in a way that people don't forget what you did for them. 00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:41.680 There's the principle of retroprocity. 00:20:41.900 --> 00:20:44.740 If you scratch my back, I'm going to remember and want to scratch your back one day. 00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:48.420 Those people remember when you serve them unconditionally. 00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:52.360 It doesn't mean they're going to come to Christ, but they remember that church. 00:20:52.760 --> 00:20:58.340 I don't agree with what they believe, but man, they love me like Jesus did. 00:20:59.540 --> 00:21:05.440 And in a valley that's the most pagan, like people are antagonistic towards God's here. 00:21:05.840 --> 00:21:08.900 It's not that I'm trying to convert them to Christianity on day one. 00:21:09.320 --> 00:21:12.240 I'm just trying to take them from a negative four to a negative three. 00:21:13.980 --> 00:21:15.600 That's my goal, honestly. 00:21:15.800 --> 00:21:17.600 Just bring them a little bit closer. 00:21:18.940 --> 00:21:19.820 Groceries do that. 00:21:20.680 --> 00:21:26.680 And so we got, I'll be honest, we got emailed a lot about, can we help with rent? 00:21:27.380 --> 00:21:29.040 I just got, I lost my job. 00:21:29.300 --> 00:21:30.200 My business is gone. 00:21:30.260 --> 00:21:30.940 Can you help with rent? 00:21:31.180 --> 00:21:32.820 And I'm like, guys, we're a church plant. 00:21:33.660 --> 00:21:35.200 I wish I could do that. 00:21:35.840 --> 00:21:39.880 We don't have the benevolence for that, those kinds of things. 00:21:40.620 --> 00:21:42.980 But I don't want you to worry about groceries. 00:21:44.100 --> 00:21:45.280 I don't want you to worry about food. 00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:48.880 Hopefully, unemployment will help you. 00:21:49.100 --> 00:21:53.460 Hopefully, you can find another job at Uber or something, but at least you have food on the table. 00:21:54.500 --> 00:22:00.780 And the idea behind it was, could we be, could we show mercy and compassion in a time of chaos? 00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:04.060 And then the initial reaction is, should we do this for a community? 00:22:04.800 --> 00:22:08.080 And I said, guys, what if we didn't care who we gave it to? 00:22:08.180 --> 00:22:18.820 What if we, like Jesus, serve 5,000 people a meal and knowing a lot of them are only there because they want you to be Burger King and not the King of Kings? 00:22:19.820 --> 00:22:21.200 And we said, let's just do it. 00:22:21.620 --> 00:22:28.420 Let's be like Jesus and give away resources that are not going to help us grow, but it's going to help the kingdom. 00:22:28.980 --> 00:22:31.020 It's going to help the name of Jesus. 00:22:31.820 --> 00:22:37.840 And that was the primary motivation was, let's be generous for the sake of being generous. 00:22:38.460 --> 00:22:39.620 You got to tweet that one. 00:22:40.280 --> 00:22:41.440 They want you to be Burger King. 00:22:42.040 --> 00:22:43.340 The King of Kings. 00:22:43.540 --> 00:22:44.160 That was good. 00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:46.300 I got to quote, I got to quote, I got to give credit. 00:22:46.420 --> 00:22:48.360 That's Stephen Furtick about 10 years ago. 00:22:49.360 --> 00:22:50.260 I'll give, I'll give. 00:22:50.260 --> 00:22:51.840 And I've never forgotten that quote. 00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:52.540 It's so good. 00:22:52.860 --> 00:22:53.440 It's good. 00:22:54.460 --> 00:22:58.280 I love the idea, you know, hey, I don't want to get a negative four to 10. 00:22:58.340 --> 00:22:59.880 I want to get negative four to negative three. 00:22:59.880 --> 00:23:04.240 Let's, let's just start that, that conversation, get them engaged in that community. 00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:05.680 And then negative two, then negative one. 00:23:05.800 --> 00:23:11.100 Yeah, and if I can tell you, that was the primary reason our church grew in the very beginning. 00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:18.120 Oh, a year before we started our Sunday services, we went to this, what's called the Santa Clara Art and Wine Festival. 00:23:18.180 --> 00:23:20.900 It's the largest outdoor festival in Silicon Valley. 00:23:21.080 --> 00:23:24.340 50,000 people come out, they drink, they get drunk. 00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:31.540 Imagine a bunch of Christians bought a booth in this chaos, like the Bay Area's version of Mardi Gras. 00:23:32.020 --> 00:23:42.520 And we bought a booth and we had probably four or $5,000 worth of prizes and gifts that we just gave away over the course of two days. 00:23:42.920 --> 00:23:48.340 And people would come in and they're like, why are you doing this? 00:23:50.460 --> 00:23:51.600 We just want to love the community. 00:23:51.700 --> 00:23:52.560 No, no, no, no, stop. 00:23:53.240 --> 00:23:54.440 Why are you doing this? 00:23:55.340 --> 00:23:57.120 No, that's literally the reason. 00:23:57.640 --> 00:23:58.980 We just want to love our community. 00:23:59.700 --> 00:24:03.640 It was like unfathomable for these people that we were there without a hook. 00:24:03.900 --> 00:24:05.240 We were there for our reason. 00:24:05.720 --> 00:24:06.580 Like, where's your church? 00:24:06.700 --> 00:24:07.680 I'm like, we haven't started yet. 00:24:08.520 --> 00:24:10.100 Stop, you're lying to me. 00:24:11.800 --> 00:24:16.780 And then we had a board that said, I would go to church if dot, dot, dot. 00:24:17.140 --> 00:24:21.420 And we just left a blank, like a six by four, six foot by four foot, like whiteboard. 00:24:22.200 --> 00:24:25.580 And as we engaged in conversation, people would go to the board. 00:24:25.580 --> 00:24:31.100 I'm telling you, over the course of two days, from eight to eight, this festival was at. 00:24:31.880 --> 00:24:36.060 We had probably close to 1,000, like 900 people come to our booth. 00:24:36.200 --> 00:24:37.480 We met two atheists. 00:24:38.520 --> 00:24:46.220 And the reason why it's significant is because prior to launching, the number of family and the number of friends, the number of pastors says, don't do this, Ali. 00:24:46.260 --> 00:24:47.220 You make good tech money. 00:24:47.800 --> 00:24:48.860 This valley is godless. 00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:49.600 They don't want Jesus. 00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:58.460 And after that festival, it was literally the exact, there were hundreds of people that wanted to come to church. 00:24:59.460 --> 00:25:03.020 But the reasons why they wrote down was, you guys just yell at me. 00:25:04.040 --> 00:25:05.500 The service is too long. 00:25:06.340 --> 00:25:07.740 The music sucks. 00:25:08.380 --> 00:25:09.880 And the pastor isn't funny. 00:25:10.560 --> 00:25:12.400 Like, he takes himself too seriously. 00:25:12.800 --> 00:25:14.340 It's like, dude, those are so easy. 00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:18.480 Like, they were literally telling you what kind of church they wanted. 00:25:19.480 --> 00:25:31.240 They just were saying, I don't want the angry, judgmental, make America great again, pastor with a church, preaching down at its people kind of person. 00:25:31.740 --> 00:25:33.260 It's like, that's so easy. 00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:34.900 I wear skinny jeans. 00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:35.620 I'm not even white. 00:25:35.820 --> 00:25:36.400 Like, come. 00:25:37.060 --> 00:25:37.280 You know? 00:25:37.320 --> 00:25:39.660 I'm not saying that, like, you have to be a non-white person. 00:25:39.720 --> 00:25:44.900 I don't mean to say that, but, like, the vast majority of people in our church that come are not. 00:25:45.140 --> 00:25:47.860 And they just wanted representation of someone who looked like them. 00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:49.560 We hear that all the time. 00:25:50.080 --> 00:25:50.940 And I'll just be transparent. 00:25:51.220 --> 00:25:55.680 I get 40-year-old white guys that walk into my church every week, and they walk right out. 00:25:55.780 --> 00:25:58.620 They don't even say goodbye to me because I'm not what they want. 00:25:58.760 --> 00:26:00.360 And I'm okay with that. 00:26:01.020 --> 00:26:04.920 And one of the reasons why we're growing is because I'm not a white guy from Texas. 00:26:05.300 --> 00:26:06.660 I look like my community. 00:26:07.660 --> 00:26:10.340 And I don't yell at them. 00:26:10.480 --> 00:26:11.560 I just love them. 00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:13.080 And they keep coming back. 00:26:13.180 --> 00:26:15.380 And then they love it so much, they bring their friends. 00:26:16.580 --> 00:26:27.040 And so, like, I can tell you there was a girl, one of my favorite stories, 18-year-old girl that preached at a Hispanic youth group, like, six months before we launched. 00:26:27.580 --> 00:26:31.200 And this 18-year-old girl was captivated by our story, my wife and I's story. 00:26:31.780 --> 00:26:32.900 She said, I want to join your church. 00:26:33.260 --> 00:26:34.000 I'm like, you're 18. 00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:34.700 She's like, so? 00:26:34.700 --> 00:26:35.380 I want to come. 00:26:35.480 --> 00:26:36.100 I'm like, let's go. 00:26:36.860 --> 00:26:40.220 This girl loved our life-giving Sunday service so much. 00:26:40.300 --> 00:26:45.940 She brought her sister and her cousin, and neither of these two girls were Christian. 00:26:46.460 --> 00:26:49.960 I guess they had been going to Catholic church for, like, three or four years because their grandmother would take them. 00:26:50.700 --> 00:26:52.260 Within a month, they accept Christ. 00:26:52.980 --> 00:26:55.020 Then they bring their husbands, these two cousins. 00:26:55.240 --> 00:26:59.440 And their husbands said, they're like, that's how I know when you're not a believer, you have your arms crossed. 00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:09.280 That's why I lead with a lot of jokes because I'm trying to uncross your arms, trying to get you to physically open up so you can, it takes time. 00:27:10.100 --> 00:27:14.140 Within three months, both, one of the husbands, six of Christ, gets baptized. 00:27:14.840 --> 00:27:17.020 Six months ago, the second husband got baptized. 00:27:17.260 --> 00:27:18.940 And now he's one of my top leaders. 00:27:19.420 --> 00:27:22.820 I can tell you, like, here's the story of Seven Grees of Kevin Bacon. 00:27:23.860 --> 00:27:31.600 I can tell you there's 20 people in our church that have gotten saved and baptized because of that one 18-year-old girl who... 00:27:31.600 --> 00:27:32.020 No kidding. 00:27:33.540 --> 00:27:35.500 Loved the fact that we'd go to an art wine festival. 00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:38.380 Loved the fact that we were so generous. 00:27:38.380 --> 00:27:42.420 She was, like, the primary catalyst to bring two people that brought 10 people. 00:27:42.540 --> 00:27:43.400 It's just, like, crazy. 00:27:44.520 --> 00:27:44.880 Crazy. 00:27:45.260 --> 00:27:46.420 You can't buy a billboard. 00:27:46.500 --> 00:27:48.100 You can't buy mailers that do that stuff. 00:27:49.820 --> 00:27:53.320 If you just love your community, they're going to come. 00:27:54.180 --> 00:27:55.980 It's almost like we were doing church without the queen. 00:27:56.220 --> 00:27:57.000 You've heard that language. 00:27:57.740 --> 00:28:04.120 And once the Sunday service started up again, it's like, oh, my gosh, our engagement with the community started falling off. 00:28:04.580 --> 00:28:07.460 Because we didn't have the resources for it because it was so geared towards the Sunday. 00:28:07.880 --> 00:28:15.980 And now that the Sunday is gone, it's like that gear, that engine of our church is back again. 00:28:16.040 --> 00:28:18.520 It's like, oh, my gosh, we're serving the church the way we were supposed to be. 00:28:18.560 --> 00:28:19.040 Oh, my gosh. 00:28:19.360 --> 00:28:21.600 I'm sorry, God, for dropping the ball on this. 00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:26.800 And so it feels like our church became healthier because of COVID. 00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:30.020 And we were unhealthy before COVID. 00:28:30.840 --> 00:28:32.060 And I'm grateful for COVID. 00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:34.540 We're going to call that the title of this. 00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:36.160 My church is healthier because of COVID. 00:28:36.320 --> 00:28:42.120 I don't know that I've ever heard in this five months, however long it's been at this point, 120 plus days. 00:28:42.160 --> 00:28:43.820 I don't think I've ever heard somebody say that. 00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:49.120 Your church is healthier because of this pandemic. 00:28:49.460 --> 00:28:51.620 It's called into attention and you've been able. 00:28:51.620 --> 00:28:53.880 I had an unhealthy obsession with the Sunday. 00:28:54.500 --> 00:28:55.140 Oh, my God. 00:28:55.140 --> 00:29:00.580 I had an unhealthy obsession with the Sunday when I inspire people on Sunday, but they're going to grow in groups. 00:29:01.180 --> 00:29:03.980 And we're really not going to reach the community with mailers and billboards. 00:29:04.260 --> 00:29:05.480 It's by the way we serve them. 00:29:06.620 --> 00:29:08.100 And that was missing. 00:29:09.460 --> 00:29:22.600 And so by God taking our queen away, because God's the one who's in control, we can either get angry and protest like a bunch of Christians are or say, God, with the enemy meant for evil, you're going to use for good. 00:29:23.600 --> 00:29:26.120 And say, what are you trying to teach me in this season, Lord? 00:29:26.540 --> 00:29:27.500 And we pivoted. 00:29:27.960 --> 00:29:30.320 And the guys that are protesting are not pivoting. 00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:32.780 And so we've used this season. 00:29:32.980 --> 00:29:35.040 It forced us to get healthy again. 00:29:36.620 --> 00:29:38.240 So I'm grateful for it, honestly. 00:29:38.760 --> 00:29:45.280 If COVID ends tomorrow with a vaccine, we will not stop doing those things that we've begun doing. 00:29:47.720 --> 00:29:53.260 And we will, I mean, there's always that pull, right, to go back to the Sunday. 00:29:53.460 --> 00:30:01.160 But we've learned our lesson, hopefully, to not go back to having 80 people serve on the Sunday service and having no one serve the community. 00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:05.560 And so I can foresee us when we go back having caps. 00:30:05.800 --> 00:30:07.500 We don't need 35 people, more than 35. 00:30:08.280 --> 00:30:09.360 Serve somewhere else. 00:30:10.420 --> 00:30:14.360 And in the same way we call people to go to groups, call them and say, hey, can you serve here? 00:30:15.060 --> 00:30:17.220 This is just as important as a Sunday service. 00:30:17.720 --> 00:30:25.700 So when you talked about the different aspects of your church, it reminds me of the Great Commission engine, which I think you're familiar with, Ali, right? 00:30:26.260 --> 00:30:27.280 It's the Great Commission engine. 00:30:27.420 --> 00:30:28.940 It talks about the Sunday service. 00:30:28.940 --> 00:30:31.280 It talks about serving. 00:30:31.580 --> 00:30:34.000 And it talks about relationships, right? 00:30:34.320 --> 00:30:41.560 And in our training, we talk about how you've got to have all three of those pistons running, right? 00:30:41.620 --> 00:30:47.200 To really build momentum and push a church forward in a healthy way. 00:30:47.300 --> 00:30:52.900 But most of the time, what we see in churches is an emphasis on one of those different aspects. 00:30:52.900 --> 00:31:04.680 And so when I hear you talk about that and hear that this COVID season has brought you to a healthy place, it seems like God has equalized those pistons within your church. 00:31:05.060 --> 00:31:08.560 And that has caused great momentum for you guys. 00:31:09.040 --> 00:31:12.640 Yeah, I didn't know you knew the Intentional Church's language. 00:31:13.940 --> 00:31:16.540 Yeah, the Great Commission engine. 00:31:17.040 --> 00:31:21.060 And what's so funny is we started with groups and serving. 00:31:21.260 --> 00:31:23.320 We didn't even have the first piston, which is the Sunday. 00:31:24.680 --> 00:31:34.260 And I'm sure a lot of guys online will tell you, pastors will tell you, even though you know about the Great Commission engine, the Sunday service becomes so important. 00:31:34.320 --> 00:31:38.260 It's like this magnetic pull and everyone, even you lean that way. 00:31:39.420 --> 00:31:51.360 And so one of the ways that we know coming out of COVID is before we hire a small group pastor or a Sunday production person to run the Sunday service, we're going to need a community service pastor. 00:31:52.860 --> 00:31:55.700 And so financially, we need to, it's important to us. 00:31:55.800 --> 00:32:08.320 The only way that we won't go back to what we were pre-COVID is if we have resources going there, financially towards a person championing that cause, because it will naturally drift back. 00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:09.040 Totally. 00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:09.900 You're so right. 00:32:10.520 --> 00:32:13.460 Let me ask this, because we're going to build on the Great Commission engine. 00:32:13.660 --> 00:32:14.760 It's one of the pistons. 00:32:14.820 --> 00:32:17.840 By the way, Great Commission, some of the listeners may not know, that's Intentional Churches. 00:32:17.840 --> 00:32:24.580 We had Doug Parks on the podcast just recently talking about discipleship processes and church's platform. 00:32:25.180 --> 00:32:28.060 And I'm really fascinated by the Great Commission engine. 00:32:28.180 --> 00:32:32.100 But one of the pistons is catalytic experiences. 00:32:32.360 --> 00:32:39.720 You mentioned earlier, as you were kind of going through your intro, this idea of encounters with God, a burning bush experience. 00:32:40.560 --> 00:32:43.760 In this COVID environment, physical is not a thing. 00:32:43.760 --> 00:32:45.340 Physical may kind of be a thing. 00:32:45.900 --> 00:32:51.500 People, the ones, using Doug Parks' language, the ones don't really want to go to the building. 00:32:51.780 --> 00:32:56.540 So, evangelically, the queen has kind of lost her luster in the physical building. 00:32:57.080 --> 00:32:59.900 And so, we're doing services online with you. 00:33:00.260 --> 00:33:04.400 You're engaging and serving with the community through free groceries. 00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:06.840 Community groups are reaching out. 00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:08.640 Small groups are reaching out to engage. 00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:12.180 Like, you're working the pistons from different levels. 00:33:12.680 --> 00:33:19.240 Right now, in this COVID season, what is the catalytic, like, what is this catalytic experience? 00:33:19.480 --> 00:33:20.560 What are the catalytic service? 00:33:21.080 --> 00:33:22.560 What is this burning bush experience? 00:33:22.660 --> 00:33:23.620 What does this look like? 00:33:24.120 --> 00:33:27.260 Does this happen with your online experiences? 00:33:27.480 --> 00:33:30.240 Are you seeing it happen in other ways? 00:33:30.660 --> 00:33:33.420 Kind of talk to me what the role of the service is for your church. 00:33:33.560 --> 00:33:50.600 Yeah, our Sunday service has, from the very beginning, been our primary, like what you just described, our catalytic experience, where someone can come and hear the basic gospel presentation in a relevant, creative way. 00:33:50.940 --> 00:33:52.440 That hasn't shifted. 00:33:53.080 --> 00:33:59.880 But what has shifted is now our Sunday service is, this is going to sound offensive, and that's okay. 00:34:00.520 --> 00:34:07.180 It's, you know, you go on Netflix every Christmas, and the fireplace, you can play a fireplace for four hours. 00:34:07.580 --> 00:34:08.600 It sounds like a fireplace. 00:34:08.860 --> 00:34:09.740 It looks like a fireplace. 00:34:10.060 --> 00:34:14.820 And then you play Christmas music in the background, and, you know, a fire, like, oh my gosh, we have a fire in our house. 00:34:15.420 --> 00:34:17.500 And that's what I feel like online church has become. 00:34:17.620 --> 00:34:18.960 It looks like a fire. 00:34:19.500 --> 00:34:20.540 It sounds like a fire. 00:34:20.620 --> 00:34:22.220 It just doesn't have the heat of the fire. 00:34:23.520 --> 00:34:28.860 And I can tell you, our viewership is way higher. 00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:35.180 The people that engage with our Sunday service pre-COVID was like 200 people, adults. 00:34:35.500 --> 00:34:40.020 It's like in the 800, 900 right now, every week consistently. 00:34:42.180 --> 00:34:45.480 Salvations are still happening, just not at the rate it was before. 00:34:46.420 --> 00:34:51.220 And so when I ask my community, like, hey, how are you engaging with church? 00:34:51.980 --> 00:34:54.780 The vast majority of them are distracted while they're watching church. 00:34:54.860 --> 00:34:59.800 They have their cell phone in their hand, and they're engaging church on their laptop or their TV, 00:35:00.060 --> 00:35:05.280 which means their hands are free to, like, surf, or their kids are running around. 00:35:05.480 --> 00:35:09.880 So that, like, it's a distracted church experience. 00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:16.520 This idea where people would come into a room, and they had no distractions. 00:35:16.620 --> 00:35:17.640 We'd turn the lights low. 00:35:17.700 --> 00:35:18.840 The lights would go on the stage. 00:35:18.840 --> 00:35:20.600 They're uninterrupted for 30 minutes. 00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:22.120 Those days are gone. 00:35:22.920 --> 00:35:25.180 I cannot hold your attention for 45 minutes. 00:35:25.320 --> 00:35:27.020 That's how long I would preach pre-COVID. 00:35:27.420 --> 00:35:29.820 And now I've brought it down to 28 minutes. 00:35:31.300 --> 00:35:31.740 Why? 00:35:31.860 --> 00:35:33.120 Because the attention span is gone. 00:35:33.620 --> 00:35:39.940 Our services today are 50 minutes, whereas pre-COVID, they're about an hour and 10. 00:35:40.940 --> 00:35:41.320 Why? 00:35:41.460 --> 00:35:45.780 Because it's impossible to hold someone's attention for an hour where their kids are running around. 00:35:46.640 --> 00:35:48.000 Half of them are in their pajamas. 00:35:48.860 --> 00:35:51.780 It's like, you can still have that encounter with God. 00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:53.580 It just looks very, very different. 00:35:55.660 --> 00:35:59.800 It's more of a, I would say, we're a spiritual TED Talk now. 00:36:00.300 --> 00:36:03.400 A little bit of worship, TED Talk. 00:36:03.900 --> 00:36:08.980 And the hope is that it's just one step, not the only step. 00:36:09.040 --> 00:36:12.520 Again, I'm taking them from a negative three to a negative two. 00:36:13.220 --> 00:36:17.240 I still do a gospel presentation at the end of my sermon every single week. 00:36:17.380 --> 00:36:18.780 Hey, if you want to receive Christ, blah, blah, blah. 00:36:19.460 --> 00:36:21.460 But it's different, if that makes sense. 00:36:21.580 --> 00:36:22.420 It's not the same. 00:36:22.580 --> 00:36:23.660 And so we have to adjust. 00:36:23.840 --> 00:36:28.220 I can't preach and have the same service as pre-COVID inside online church. 00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:30.040 Online church is totally different. 00:36:30.640 --> 00:36:37.680 And even with our short services, the amount that people engage, the data tells you, like, 00:36:37.740 --> 00:36:41.700 oh, this number of people sign off after this amount of time. 00:36:41.900 --> 00:36:45.660 As soon as I'm done praying, everyone logs off. 00:36:45.720 --> 00:36:46.860 No one wants to hear what everyone is. 00:36:46.860 --> 00:36:51.380 I can say there's a free car waiting in the parking lot and no one will be there to hear 00:36:51.380 --> 00:36:54.160 that after I'm done praying because they're gone. 00:36:54.560 --> 00:36:58.540 And you can see people skip out in the first 10 minutes because they don't want to be in 00:36:58.540 --> 00:37:00.140 worship and they only show up for the sermon. 00:37:00.460 --> 00:37:02.540 And as soon as the sermon is done, they go, they leave. 00:37:03.940 --> 00:37:06.880 And so it's, do we, do we only release a TED Talk? 00:37:08.100 --> 00:37:09.140 We've wrestled with that. 00:37:09.940 --> 00:37:15.960 Do we become like a Jimmy Kimball or we have a studio audience kind of RSVP and show up and 00:37:15.960 --> 00:37:17.180 they're there for the taping. 00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:19.300 And then we release the video a couple of days later. 00:37:19.540 --> 00:37:20.560 I don't know, man. 00:37:20.860 --> 00:37:24.820 I'm not sure I'm qualified to do it, but it's changing. 00:37:26.040 --> 00:37:32.340 And I love when God uses these seasons to stretch us and push the boundaries of what is acceptable. 00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:36.420 Because usually it's some dude who thinks that Harry Potter is demonic and it's not. 00:37:36.580 --> 00:37:40.280 And you're watering down the church and we're still preaching the gospel. 00:37:40.360 --> 00:37:40.900 It's just different. 00:37:41.120 --> 00:37:42.520 The message is still the same. 00:37:42.600 --> 00:37:43.400 The methods are changing. 00:37:43.800 --> 00:37:44.400 And I love it. 00:37:44.780 --> 00:37:48.240 I love the tension of it not being what it was 20 years ago. 00:37:48.240 --> 00:37:53.360 I mean, you're asking healthy questions and the questions you're asking, I've heard from 00:37:53.360 --> 00:37:55.300 other churches that are wrestling with that same thing. 00:37:55.840 --> 00:38:01.540 They're seeing where the online service, you know, is reaching the 99s, but it's not reaching 00:38:01.540 --> 00:38:02.420 the ones. 00:38:03.220 --> 00:38:07.540 And even this is worship, online worship, church service worship. 00:38:07.540 --> 00:38:10.400 Dude, I'm telling you, they skip it on purpose. 00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:13.220 And so we've wrestled with, do we just cut it out? 00:38:13.600 --> 00:38:14.460 But it's funny. 00:38:14.580 --> 00:38:17.480 Like I've had that conversation because I've started, you know, kind of throwing that in. 00:38:17.540 --> 00:38:19.400 Hey, you know, is anybody else saying this? 00:38:19.460 --> 00:38:20.420 Other churches are saying this. 00:38:20.740 --> 00:38:26.920 And once again, that's another hugely controversial idea where you want to do church without, you 00:38:26.920 --> 00:38:27.740 know, corporate worship? 00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:29.160 You have to. 00:38:29.340 --> 00:38:30.560 Oh, especially I'm in California. 00:38:31.120 --> 00:38:34.820 And the backdrop is Gavin Newsom, our governor, made singing illegal. 00:38:35.120 --> 00:38:36.540 I'm like, who the heck cares? 00:38:37.380 --> 00:38:38.420 Who the heck cares? 00:38:39.180 --> 00:38:40.160 It's not going to stop Jesus. 00:38:40.340 --> 00:38:40.800 Come on. 00:38:41.080 --> 00:38:43.420 And there's thousands of Christians protesting. 00:38:43.820 --> 00:38:45.400 Oh my gosh, we're being persecuted. 00:38:45.580 --> 00:38:47.060 It's like, guys, this is not first. 00:38:47.140 --> 00:38:48.500 No one has held a gun to us. 00:38:48.540 --> 00:38:50.560 No one's died because we're a Christian yet. 00:38:50.640 --> 00:38:51.040 Please. 00:38:51.400 --> 00:38:53.140 This is like complaining that the Wi-Fi went out. 00:38:53.260 --> 00:38:54.380 These are first world problems. 00:38:54.680 --> 00:38:59.240 And honestly, if you want to look at the data, people don't want worship that are non-Christians. 00:39:00.120 --> 00:39:02.940 And our service, our church is geared towards reaching the non-Christians. 00:39:03.060 --> 00:39:09.560 If you want to get deep, there's seminaries worth of free information on iTunes University. 00:39:10.520 --> 00:39:13.640 You can get a yearly membership for $110. 00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:15.520 You don't need the Sunday service to do that. 00:39:16.040 --> 00:39:17.400 I'm not here to spoon feed you. 00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:20.740 If you need that, that means you're a baby and you need someone else to change your diapers 00:39:20.740 --> 00:39:20.940 too. 00:39:21.020 --> 00:39:22.780 Let's really go into what that is. 00:39:23.040 --> 00:39:24.700 Our Sunday service are geared towards lost people. 00:39:24.840 --> 00:39:26.600 And we're wrestling with, do we cut out worship? 00:39:27.060 --> 00:39:31.920 Because the 99, go listen to five hours of Elevation somewhere else. 00:39:32.260 --> 00:39:32.800 That's beautiful. 00:39:32.940 --> 00:39:33.620 I love it. 00:39:34.280 --> 00:39:38.780 There's other ways to solve the problem, which is ultimately the hurdle we're running into. 00:39:39.120 --> 00:39:42.320 So churches, be open to thinking different towards some of these things. 00:39:42.420 --> 00:39:48.200 I love Ali's passion and just honestly his approach here. 00:39:48.840 --> 00:39:50.000 I'm still stuck on this. 00:39:50.080 --> 00:39:52.680 My church is healthier mid-COVID than it was before. 00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:55.580 I honestly don't think I've heard one church ever say that. 00:39:55.580 --> 00:39:56.780 So thank you. 00:39:56.860 --> 00:39:58.020 Thank you just even for that. 00:39:58.100 --> 00:40:00.080 Hey, we're going to wrap up and land land. 00:40:00.080 --> 00:40:03.000 I feel like I could do like a whole other conversation here. 00:40:03.120 --> 00:40:07.140 Maybe as we get further on down the road, maybe we'll get an update and see what's going on 00:40:07.140 --> 00:40:08.120 with the church. 00:40:08.240 --> 00:40:11.440 But just as we land in the plane, Emily, any closing thoughts on your side? 00:40:11.720 --> 00:40:15.780 I just, I appreciate your perspective, Ali, and your humility, right? 00:40:15.780 --> 00:40:23.280 To evaluate the way that we did church and our focus is pre-COVID and how God is forming 00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:29.220 and shaping you as a leader and then therefore your church to be a much healthier, more robust 00:40:29.220 --> 00:40:32.260 church that is having even a greater impact in your community. 00:40:32.540 --> 00:40:34.020 So good for you. 00:40:34.060 --> 00:40:38.740 And thank you for being an example to other church leaders and church planters for us. 00:40:39.160 --> 00:40:40.500 I didn't see it that way, but thank you. 00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:41.960 It's been stressful. 00:40:42.980 --> 00:40:45.040 I tell you, she's incredible, right? 00:40:45.120 --> 00:40:47.620 Like one of the best project managers at Stadia. 00:40:47.740 --> 00:40:48.500 There's four of them. 00:40:48.600 --> 00:40:51.300 So she's at least, at least she's in the top five. 00:40:51.540 --> 00:40:52.560 You wouldn't say that. 00:40:53.240 --> 00:40:54.280 Good stuff. 00:40:54.620 --> 00:40:57.540 Ali, as we're landing the plane, any closing thoughts on your side? 00:40:57.800 --> 00:40:59.160 No, I'm just thankful for Stadia. 00:41:00.160 --> 00:41:06.080 So much of my success in the pre-service, in the pre-launch phase was them. 00:41:06.860 --> 00:41:11.260 And even after I launched, you guys have been so instrumental in challenging me, pushing me. 00:41:11.980 --> 00:41:17.880 A lot of these, like, I'm not this silo leader sitting on the top of a hill, like a monk by 00:41:17.880 --> 00:41:19.400 myself, processing these things. 00:41:19.800 --> 00:41:25.940 There are guys that I have on speed dial in the Stadia that I call and like, hey, I don't 00:41:25.940 --> 00:41:27.080 care that you want to have coffee with your wife. 00:41:27.180 --> 00:41:28.160 Answer this question for me. 00:41:29.240 --> 00:41:31.900 And so this is me saying thank you to Stadia. 00:41:32.160 --> 00:41:37.460 Not just pre-launch, because you guys helped me launch, but even after when COVID hit, you 00:41:37.460 --> 00:41:42.060 guys were giving time and energy to help me process these things. 00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:47.940 There's no way that I can take credit for my solutions when you guys were instrumental in 00:41:47.940 --> 00:41:50.200 helping me get to those solutions. 00:41:50.680 --> 00:41:51.420 So thank you, guys. 00:41:51.820 --> 00:41:52.660 Well said right there. 00:41:52.720 --> 00:41:55.260 I don't know that I could put anything more on that. 00:41:55.260 --> 00:41:59.080 Having, you know, Stadia's launch celebrated their 1000th church. 00:41:59.200 --> 00:42:00.580 Plant here recently. 00:42:00.980 --> 00:42:01.380 That's awesome. 00:42:01.380 --> 00:42:04.140 Gearing up for another 1000, you know, in the coming days. 00:42:04.560 --> 00:42:08.540 You've heard me talk more, the audience has, about digital-only church planting. 00:42:08.660 --> 00:42:12.800 And we're starting a cohort of planting a digital-only expression of church. 00:42:12.800 --> 00:42:12.920 Wow. 00:42:13.200 --> 00:42:14.360 Starting in August. 00:42:14.640 --> 00:42:21.200 And so the passion for Stadia to empower more people like you, Ali, to do the things that 00:42:21.200 --> 00:42:24.120 you're doing, the fresh, I'll just be honest. 00:42:24.320 --> 00:42:25.540 To me, it's exciting. 00:42:25.640 --> 00:42:28.560 It's invigorating because it's a fresh approach. 00:42:29.020 --> 00:42:32.180 It's a guy who's looking at the slate and saying, hey, you know what? 00:42:32.180 --> 00:42:34.420 We're healthier now than we were before. 00:42:34.420 --> 00:42:36.940 Like, so we need these things that we're changing. 00:42:37.140 --> 00:42:38.840 Let's keep them that way. 00:42:39.320 --> 00:42:43.520 That's a conversation that, honestly, a lot of existing churches, they struggle with. 00:42:43.600 --> 00:42:45.940 Some of that transparency from me. 00:42:45.960 --> 00:42:50.280 And even me, you've challenged me in serving and you've challenged me in services. 00:42:50.700 --> 00:42:52.720 And I'm a guy who's used to challenging other people. 00:42:52.720 --> 00:42:56.960 So, like, this is an exciting conversation and approach. 00:42:57.260 --> 00:43:02.520 And the thing that I love about Stadia is their desire to enable others to get out there 00:43:02.520 --> 00:43:08.520 and challenge and stretch and do things with a different perspective by helping to plant 00:43:08.520 --> 00:43:09.660 new churches as well. 00:43:09.720 --> 00:43:14.020 Not to mention the huge need for new churches in this society that's today. 00:43:14.360 --> 00:43:16.720 So, hey, man, thanks for jumping on this podcast. 00:43:16.720 --> 00:43:17.580 No, honored to be here, man. 00:43:17.620 --> 00:43:18.200 Thanks for inviting me. 00:43:18.220 --> 00:43:22.820 And, you know, we'll put Ali, if you've got questions for him, we'll put his social media 00:43:22.820 --> 00:43:26.920 stuff in the show notes, as well as links to intentional churches and some of the other 00:43:26.920 --> 00:43:30.280 things that we, the book and some other things that we talked about. 00:43:30.720 --> 00:43:35.240 But for Emily, for Ali, this is Jeff with the Church Digital and Stadia Church Planning. 00:43:35.880 --> 00:43:36.820 Thanks for being here today. 00:43:36.860 --> 00:43:38.200 And we'll see you next time here on the podcast. 00:43:38.340 --> 00:43:38.820 Y'all have a good day.