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 All right. We got episode 93 of the Church Digital Podcast. Once again, powered by Stadia Church

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 Planning, Jeff here. Man, this topic, church's platform, has been resonating with me in this

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 COVID season. It seems wherever we go, wherever I go, whenever I have conversations with churches,

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 I find myself talking about it. They find themselves, yes, how do we do this? And so,

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 like, I just really have been kind of honing in specifically on a personal level, internalizing

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 this idea of church as platform. Okay, cool. Some of you out there, what is he talking about? Church's

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 platform. Are we starting a circus? Okay, no, maybe the circus is a bad joke. Platform. Celebrity

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 pastor platform. I made that mention. Somebody's like, celebrity pastor? We get into politics now?

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 Nothing to do with that. Church's platform is this idea of, and we talk about it all throughout the

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 podcast here. I'll just give an example. Airbnb has made more revenue than the top five hotel

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 chains. Airbnb doesn't own any hotels. They don't have any concierge staff. They don't have a cleaning

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 crew. They don't own any property. They crowdsource it to others. They provide training and resources

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 and guidance for other people to lease out their homes. And that's how Airbnb lifted, raised the roof,

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 lifted the lid, added whatever analogy you want there, to the point where they're making more than the top

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 five hotel chains combined. What if we use this mindset towards the church? What if we stopped doing church

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 services and instead empowered people to be the church out in the community? Radical, crazy idea. I know, Jeff,

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 you're nuts. What are you talking about here? This didn't originate with me. And so that's what I love about this

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 idea of church's platform. And this is where I'm bringing in the guest here. We've got Rick Russo.

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 Now, Rick is a former lead pastor, LifeBridge Church, 28 years. He talks about it here on the podcast. But

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 on top of that, he's working with Glue. He's one of the leads of the Spire Network Tribe, which is

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 an incredible conference and group that's happening there. Externally focused church and author,

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 like very, well, all over the place, very well-spoken. And honestly, for me, is one of the leaders of the

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 people, one of the first people that I've really here put thought into this idea of church's platform.

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 So I wanted to sit down with Rick and start to dig in and ask him some questions on this idea of

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 church's platform. Where did it come from? Where did it grow from? What's been your experience? You're a

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 former lead pastor. Are you telling me that if someone came to you right now and said, oh, hey,

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 we want to stop doing church services and instead start to inspire other people to go out and be the

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 church in the community, and that's going to be more effective than the large gatherings? Okay,

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 that is a radical thought. Maybe there is a place for the large gatherings. But as a lead pastor,

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 would you really give that idea credibility? Yeah. That's the conversation I wanted to have here,

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 to dig into this idea of what a church would look like if it addressed multiplication at a disciple-making

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 level and decided that it no longer wanted to control that large gathering environment for the main

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 method of evangelism and disciple-making, but instead mobilize and unleash people via a platform to get out

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 there and share some really, really crazy stuff talking out here. If you really take it to the

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 extremes and the direction of what we're talking about. So for the conversation, I'm bringing in

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 Rick Russo. Once again, a formerly pastor at LifeBridge, 28 years, glue, Spire Network, all sorts of

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 stuff, externally focused church into this conversation. I'm also bringing in myself, Jeff Reed,

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 the church digital studio, church planning, and a conversation that I'm calling the standard of

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 church as platform. Okay, everybody, here you go. Yeah. So, you know, one of the things that I'm

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 doing with Spire is to help build a network of pastors, particularly pastors who are in independent

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 churches, you know, don't have any kind of a network of connection outside of their own, you know,

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 relational connections to try to bring collaboration and connection and, you know, best practices,

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 be a part of that. Pastor health's a big deal. I care a lot about that. I think ministry is

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 challenging. And I think during this season, we're seeing that a bunch, as you know, Jeff,

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 all the conversations you're having. And then on the exec team at Glue, we're going to help bring big

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 tech and big data to leverage up. You know, one of the companies that I was a part of helping get

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 started 15 years ago today is the largest cooperative database in the U.S. that's privately

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 held. It's, we've got data on 300 million Americans. We know where you eat and shop and sleep and all of

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 those things. And I watch that being used for Macy's and Target and, you know, publishers and

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 nonprofits. And I see the church not actually being able to access or utilize that. And so I love what

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 Lou's trying to do and bring in some of that. And I think my interest is simply that there's so much

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 kingdom opportunity today. And we're in a real pivot time in the, in the life of the American church.

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 Like what's next? What does this look like next? And, and, um, I think there's an opportunity here to,

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 uh, to see, uh, the kingdom, uh, expand, um, along with us, maybe revamping, uh, renewing some of the

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 ways we're doing, you know, the gospel is never going to change. Uh, but how we deliver that might

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 be changing significantly. Amen. The message, the message doesn't change, but the methods, uh, you

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 know, especially in, even within 2020, the church has seen the methods of the change as a result of

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 COVID. Yeah. That, that, that's beautiful. I love glue. Um, you know, and I've been, I don't know

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 that I was an early adopter or even, uh, awareness of it, but I've, I've loved the company and the,

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 the organization. Every time I talk with somebody at glue, uh, and I don't want any mic drops here.

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 I'm not, I'm not trying to, to, to pull a thread on something. Every time I talk with somebody that

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 works with glue, they're like, do you know about blah, blah, blah. And they tell me some super secret

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 project that I've never heard of. I don't know how many super secret projects going on, but my gosh,

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 like it just could literally take over the world, uh, for, for the kingdom. But by the time all this

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 is done, so really excited to see the stuff that that's coming out of, out of glue right now and

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 looking forward to, to doing more with Spire. So the thing that I really wanted to, to get into in

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 this conversation and we, um, through the podcast and blogs and you, you've heard me talk about this

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 idea of church as platform. And, and I'm borrowing this because we, we heard it from intentional

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 churches, uh, has, has done a lot with it. Doug Parks has been on the show, um, within the past

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 couple of months and we've had others kind of building up to it. The church's platform idea,

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 uh, has, has resonated within Stadia. And so we've had guys like Tim Selleck, uh, do a podcast

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 talking about the one, um, we had Craig, uh, on talking about this idea of getting out of the church

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 service business, really almost abandoning this idea of, of the church service. And there's different

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 variances of it. You know, I think when I had, um, Doug Parks and I suggested this idea of abandoning

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 the church service business, I, and Doug, you know, forgive me for outing you here, but I think a

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 little part of his brain exploded just with the idea. You know, it's like, Hey, I had this idea of,

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 of church's platform, but maybe not to the, to the level of like letting go of the service.

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 There's still value, uh, for him within this catalytic experience and some of the things that he's

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 doing. But I love this idea as platform. And I know there's for, for you, you've been one of the

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 early kind of innovators, kind of mind share on here, talking about church's platform, church's

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 as a, as pipeline and some of that. So just maybe even to catch up the audience, cause some of them

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 may be like, what the, what are you talking about? Can you give us like, what is, what's the brief

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 version of, of this church's pipeline as church's platform? What's that look like?

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 Yeah, absolutely. So I had the benefit, I was in London, um, helped, uh, start a business for

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 banking for unbanked and we're based in London. And, uh, and so it's really opened me up to,

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 uh, really a lot of different, um, avenues. And I was with one of our investors, one of our board

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 members who is at Rothschilds, the number two guy at Rothschilds. And, uh, he said, Hey,

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 tomorrow I'm having lunch with a CEO of Coke and Ford and Procter and Gamble from the U S. And

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 then I've invited seven similar sized companies, uh, from Europe in, uh, would you like to sit in on

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 that? You know, and it was like, man, Akil, absolutely. Like, let me jump in. And I listened

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 to them talk about what was going on in business and business disruption. And this was probably five

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 years ago. And, um, they described that for a long time, the history of the world business was a

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 pipeline. Uh, your company produced the product, shoved it down the pipeline, consumers consumed

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 it. And you grew your business by a bigger pipeline or multiple pipelines, but it was definitely

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 product was made and it was pushed down a pipeline into the consumer's hands. And then 45 years ago,

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 there was a shift to more portfolio companies. Um, and it wasn't that they were making and selling

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 their own products. They were actually distributing and making available to the consumer,

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 multiple lines of products from other producers. Um, so the pipeline went into the portfolio and then

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 the portfolio, uh, pushed those back out. And then they said today, the most disruptive business

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 are, are platform companies. Um, and they, they described two things. They said a platform does

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 two things. It allows something to happen that wants to happen. It's not really creating something

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 or making something, but it's allowing something to happen that wants to happen. And then the second

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 thing they said was that it is taking consumers and turning them into contributors. And so I'm sitting

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 there and I'm throwing my pastor hat on at that point. Uh, and I'm thinking, but that's exactly what

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 I want to see happen in the life of our church. How do we take the weekend consumers, people showing

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 up at our services and turn them into contributions? Cause we don't grow through consumption. We grow

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 through contribution. And none of us are going to grow because, uh, we've somehow been just consuming

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 all that we grow and we contribute. And so if you think about this for a long time in the history,

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 uh, of the U S church and, and, uh, across the seas as well, we were a pipeline. We had a product

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 come to our service at nine 30 on Sunday, our Bible study on Tuesday nights, uh, uh, purchase this small

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 group curriculum, whatever that might've been, um, you know, participate in that. And we pushed it down

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 a pipeline and people consumed it. And then interestingly, uh, 45 years ago, the birth of

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 the mega church was around portfolio companies. So when I went first to LifeBridge, um, nearly 30 years

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 ago now, I was trying to figure out how to open side doors up. How do we do better stuff for kids?

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 How do we open up stuff for single moms, recovery ministry, all those other ways to help connect

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 people over to a relationship with Christ? How are we doing that? And we saw a massive explosion,

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 right? Uh, multi-site came even out of that same mentality. How are we, uh, able to extend out what

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 we're currently doing? Um, but my shift in the thinking was what if we could turn the church into

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 a platform? What if we could help turn consumers into contributors, which we all care about doing.

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 We want to, we want to make disciples, you know, church has five jobs, right? Attract, get, keep, grow,

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 and multiply. How are we doing those things? We want to see that happen in the lives. We want to get

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 people, we want to attract people, get people, keep them and grow them, and then turn them into, uh,

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 disciple makers where they're multiplying in ministry. And, and then what if we actually allowed

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 something to happen that already wants to happen? We weren't trying to force it. We weren't trying to

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 fit it into a shoehorn and into a slap, but we were actually facilitating. And there's a lot of

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 spiritual hunger today. We see it in every survey. We hear about that everywhere. Um, what if we

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 could somehow connect? Cause who knew that 200,000 people wanted to turn their car into a part-time

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 taxi? So you get Uber or 2 million people, their spare bedroom into a hotel room, Airbnb. Um, and yet

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 here you have two of the largest companies, uh, that provide transportation and, um, or residents,

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 temporary residents, hotel apartments, uh, and, and they don't own any vehicles or any real estate.

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 Um, and so if we could extend the church, what, what if we could put the mission of the church back in

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 the hands of the church, back into the people's hands? Um, and that's part of driving a platform.

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 You know, what if we focused as much on scattering as we did on gathering? Uh, because the reality is

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 over the, you know, a long time now, the last two or three decades, we've become really good at doing

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 the weekend. Um, and, and I'm not an anti-weekend guy, but I'm wondering if somehow we've missed part of

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 the equation in this. Wow. Like, and so this idea of the, the church isn't doing these certain,

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 the role of the church isn't to do the services. The, the role of the church, if I'm doing the

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 parallel to Airbnb, Airbnb doesn't provide the housing. They don't provide the hotel space. They

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 don't own property. Um, they empower people that do, to do what they feel led to do by opening up and

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 selling their, or leasing their homes, renting their homes, their guest rooms, things like that.

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 Airbnb doesn't have a hotel chain. They don't have concierge service. They don't have any property.

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 They don't do a product. They're just helping others do, um, what they feel led to do. And,

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 and as a result of that, Airbnb, it's, it's, I heard a stat, this is pre-COVID. Airbnb made more

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 than the top five hotel chains combined. That's how, that's how popular this, this idea is where,

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 you know, in essence with Airbnb, like the physical property is, is a, is a lid. It's a roof. And the

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 ability to, to scale, to grow goes, uh, far beyond what's possible. If it empowers others to do,

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 instead of, you know, uh, trying to provide the, the housing opportunities that are available through

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 it. If we apply that to the church, like there's this, this incredible opportunity for the church,

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 I think to scale at, at a insurmountable rate, like something that we've never really thought of.

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 In essence, what we're saying, and correct me if I'm wrong here, our physical buildings are a lid to

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 the growth of our ministry. And if we were to get outside of the ministry, outside of the

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 buildings, the people could be more effective in doing the ministry on their own without the service

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 and without the buildings being the draw to come in. How do you, I mean, listen, you're, once again,

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 you're, I'm bad at math. I'm not going to do the math. I refuse to. I'm 43. I know people who are

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 older than me, people younger than me struggle too, but people who are older often struggle with this

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 idea because they've defined church in one way in the physical building in the one hour

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 on Sunday. That's what the church is. We always say we're, church is more than a building. And in

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 this COVID season, we're, we're feeling the strengths because people have no purpose when they're outside

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 of the building. So we want to go back into the building that we say isn't the building, but it

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 really is. It's not the church, but it really is the church because when we're not in the church,

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 we're, we're, we're stuck. Like how do you, as, as a formerly pastor, 28 years, how do you process

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 this? How would you suggest others, leaders, lead pastors who maybe a little bit define themselves

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 by the pulpit? How do you think they should process and handle this idea of, hey, let's platform this

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 instead of providing value into the one hour on Sunday? Yeah. And there's a real challenge around

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 that because I don't land in the camp of saying, oh, we're never going to really gather again. I think

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 gathering matters. If you look at the early church, right? New Testament, we see them gathering and,

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 and I know you're in that same camp, you know, I've heard you say things around that. But maybe,

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 maybe what we've done is make the gathering the most important thing. You know, I played in high

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 school, some sports, I never played football. I was never big enough for that. But, you know, you got

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 that, you got that locker room speech, right? Where you get that coach in there and he's ramping

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 people up and he's making it happen. But, but the game was never about the locker room

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 halftime. It was what was going to happen back out on that field as individuals performed,

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 did their thing. Now they had to be equipped. They had to be, they had, they had to be given the

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 right equipment, the right training. They had to, you know, be physically fit. You couldn't just put

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 anybody out there to play. And so I think that's the concern that happens is, well, if we just let go,

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 does that mean anybody can do anything? Um, and, and I, and I think that's always the challenge for us.

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 And so we've constrained, uh, the, the growth, the kingdom growth in a city based on the size of,

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 uh, based on whether or not we were, um, the best church in the community or the best church for the

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 community. And those are kind of two different things, right? I, I, when I first went to Lightbridge,

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 I wanted to make sure we had great worship and good preaching and good children's stuff. And

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 for a while I was focused more on being the best church in the community. And really what we shifted

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 to is what if we were the best church for the community? What does that look like? That meant

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 we had to like actually put ministry back in the hands of people. We had to, we had to trust them

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 that they could actually go out and serve and that maybe serving at their workplace, you know,

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 being a kingdom person there was more effective than if they were a youth coach or a small group leader

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 back at, at home plate, you know, so to speak. And, and so the challenge is how, how do we provide an

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 opportunity to be leading people spiritually, uh, guiding them, giving them insight, helping them

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 disciple and mature and grow and not constrain it to just that has to happen in a physical location

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 at a specified time. Because we've just spent, I mean, look at what COVID's done. It's poured gas on this

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 whole concept. And we've just spent six months teaching people how not to go to a physical place

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 for church. Um, now the concern is we don't actually know what they're all doing. And that makes us as

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 pastors kind of nervous, right? Like they may be doing some stuff, but I don't think they ought to be

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 doing. Um, and the truth is, I don't know. I mean, what we know from the stats is that a third of people

00:19:08.320 --> 00:19:15.280
 who are active physically come into your services pre COVID, a third, uh, have streamed you and only

00:19:15.280 --> 00:19:21.040
 you, a third are kind of shopping around. They're streaming some other people's stuff as well. But the

00:19:21.040 --> 00:19:27.940
 number that ought to be concerning to us is a third haven't done anything since March. Um, and, and they

00:19:27.940 --> 00:19:32.600
 haven't connected. And so we've got to sort out, you know, if what we were doing was working,

00:19:33.300 --> 00:19:37.860
 um, then I would say, wow, you know, hats off to us. But every stat, even though churches are grown,

00:19:38.060 --> 00:19:43.880
 you know, I was grateful LifeBridge was growing. Uh, but 78% of church growth in the U.S. is swapping

00:19:43.880 --> 00:19:51.620
 sheep around. Um, we were more, uh, 85% of our resources spent on the weekend. Um, you know,

00:19:51.700 --> 00:19:57.220
 we saw church attendance declining. People were coming less, right? They were coming 16 times a year

00:19:57.220 --> 00:20:04.160
 nationally. Uh, those were the committed people. And so there is this opportunity because people

00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:09.500
 are looking for spiritual things. You know, you run into it in Miami all the time. You know,

00:20:09.700 --> 00:20:14.340
 they want to know big deal questions. What happens to me when I die? What's my life really about?

00:20:14.600 --> 00:20:20.200
 I'm going to make a difference. How do I, how do I have good relationships? Those are all spiritual

00:20:20.200 --> 00:20:27.200
 questions. And so I think there's just hunger for something, but I'm not sure it's just going to be

00:20:27.220 --> 00:20:32.280
 that we can go back to the weekend model and hope that's going to work for us. So.

00:20:32.280 --> 00:20:39.180
 Yeah. And, and we're, we're seeing even, even pre COVID that, that the, the stadia here through

00:20:39.180 --> 00:20:44.340
 the podcast, we use the language, a lot of, of the ones in the 99 going after the ones, those who are

00:20:44.340 --> 00:20:50.540
 cold to Christ far from God, um, don't, don't understand the salvation that don't have faith yet.

00:20:50.680 --> 00:20:56.060
 And so that there are ones and it's the parable of leaving the 99 sheep to go,

00:20:56.100 --> 00:21:00.740
 go after the one. Um, and when, when we look at one of the things that, that I've often wrestled

00:21:00.740 --> 00:21:11.280
 with is, is our, our, our worship services, are they effective to reaching ones now in a physical

00:21:11.280 --> 00:21:15.960
 environment? I think more so because there's a social aspect where there's a relational aspect

00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:20.780
 where I'm bringing my, my friend who's far from Christ to a church service to, to experience

00:21:20.780 --> 00:21:27.380
 Christ. And so we see that in a physical environment, pre COVID somewhat, maybe it's waning, but I think

00:21:27.380 --> 00:21:32.440
 it's still a part of it in a digital environment. We, we don't, we don't, I'll be honest. We, we don't

00:21:32.440 --> 00:21:37.300
 see that. Uh, so often, you know, I hear language from, from online pastors, people connect to

00:21:37.300 --> 00:21:43.360
 community before they connect to Christ. Um, or, or, I don't, I don't know that, that a, a lost person,

00:21:43.480 --> 00:21:48.820
 someone who's far from Christ, someone who's, um, cold to that idea is going to invest 60 minutes,

00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:54.560
 75 minutes, uh, in, in a, in a service is going to stay tapped in through those songs. They don't

00:21:54.560 --> 00:22:00.680
 know that's going to listen to that sermon. Um, you know, a Ted talk is 18 minutes. And so this guy's

00:22:00.680 --> 00:22:06.500
 going 40 talking about what, you know, and it's just, it's not, uh, and, and I don't mean to like

00:22:06.500 --> 00:22:12.840
 defame the theology of the building and the history of the whatever. And, and sometimes like people start

00:22:12.840 --> 00:22:17.660
 to put themselves in check here. Well, that's what, that's what the church is. The church has to be

00:22:17.660 --> 00:22:22.480
 these things. And it's, well, I don't, if you really look at the biblical context of it, that may be what

00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:28.720
 the U S America church is, but I don't know that you have to define church as what happens in that

00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:33.460
 physical space on, on Sunday. And there's an opportunity I would think to reach a different person

00:22:33.460 --> 00:22:42.220
 through it. But I think the thing that I love most about this conversation with, um, uh, church's

00:22:42.220 --> 00:22:52.320
 platform is just like Airbnb or Uber has crowdsourced this idea to random people who are now driving

00:22:52.320 --> 00:22:58.640
 nameless people all over the country, myself included. I love Uber. I, I, when I go to a new city, I don't

00:22:58.640 --> 00:23:02.600
 even, I don't even rent a car. I haven't rented a car in years. It's, it's, it's all been Uber and

00:23:02.600 --> 00:23:09.120
 it's been awesome. Airbnb to stay there instead of paying the big bucks for, for a major hotel chain

00:23:09.120 --> 00:23:15.880
 has been a, been a bonus as well. But it starts with these individuals that, that are, that are

00:23:15.880 --> 00:23:21.920
 willing to, to do this. And I think as a church, we've, we've lost this a little bit. Maybe it's

00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:26.260
 behind our professional Christian, Christendom that we kind of, I'll call myself out that I've

00:23:26.260 --> 00:23:30.220
 operated that way. Hey, I'm a professional Christian. I'm the one who should be doing

00:23:30.220 --> 00:23:35.180
 this. Hey, I get paid by the church to do this. I should be, um, the, the one who's doing

00:23:35.180 --> 00:23:40.580
 this act. Uh, there was a, a nationally known speaker. I was, I was on his podcast, uh, within

00:23:40.580 --> 00:23:45.300
 the past couple of weeks. Uh, and so well-known pastor, I, I'm not going to drop his name, but

00:23:45.300 --> 00:23:50.400
 if I did ever be like, oh yeah, that makes sense. Um, so I'm on his podcast talking and just

00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:58.240
 the idea of lay people baptizing others was just like, uh, like a completely foreign concept.

00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:03.000
 And I look at this and it's, it's amazing to me where, you know, sometimes I'm in circles

00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:06.640
 and I talk about priesthood of believers and people are like, that's the most controversial

00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:10.580
 thing I've ever heard in my life. There are others where I talk about priesthood of believers

00:24:10.580 --> 00:24:15.200
 and they're like, yeah, Jeff, we've been doing priesthood of believers for like 60, 70 years

00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:20.440
 now. What do you, why are you making a big deal about this? What, what's the theological

00:24:20.440 --> 00:24:24.760
 girding? Because if we're doing this, it's, it's grounded in this idea of priesthood of believers

00:24:24.760 --> 00:24:31.720
 that our people can, uh, witness that they can share their faith, that they can, uh, lead

00:24:31.720 --> 00:24:37.400
 in baptisms and do communion and do these things because the same Holy Spirit that that's in

00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:40.480
 the pastor is, is in, is in these people. This is what we're saying.

00:24:40.580 --> 00:24:45.260
 With this priesthood of all believers. That's a, let's speak to the crowd where that's a

00:24:45.260 --> 00:24:51.220
 controversial idea. Talk to me a little bit. Lead pastor, you are far more educated than

00:24:51.220 --> 00:24:55.300
 I am on this. How would you combat kind of this challenge against the priesthood of all

00:24:55.300 --> 00:24:55.640
 believers?

00:24:56.040 --> 00:25:00.380
 Well, I think first of all, look at the early church, right? The early church exploded.

00:25:01.020 --> 00:25:08.440
 Um, and the growth was, was rapid and it was, it was neighbor to neighbor to neighbor to

00:25:08.440 --> 00:25:14.040
 neighbor. It's, you know, I mean, Jesus said, right, the two greatest commandments, love God,

00:25:14.120 --> 00:25:19.080
 love, love your neighbor. Um, what if we actually took that seriously? And if it is a person of

00:25:19.080 --> 00:25:22.760
 faith, loving my neighbor means I don't want to engage in their life and I don't want to help

00:25:22.760 --> 00:25:28.880
 them connect to God. I don't want to help, uh, develop spiritually. And so, um, and then if

00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:36.000
 you follow the early church, there were pastors, there were teachers, um, that elders, um, but

00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:41.740
 everybody was seen as part of the body. You know, Paul talks about, you know, all of us

00:25:41.740 --> 00:25:49.060
 have a place. All of us have a gift. Um, 1st Peter 4.10, everyone use whatever gift of

00:25:49.060 --> 00:25:53.860
 grace you have to serve others. What, what is that? And so you have a gift for communication

00:25:53.860 --> 00:25:58.560
 and you're, you've got a tech background. So you've got some gifting there that I wouldn't

00:25:58.560 --> 00:26:04.680
 have. I don't have that gift in the tech side. Um, uh, maybe my gifts are, um, in organizing

00:26:04.680 --> 00:26:11.480
 or in, uh, creating, um, uh, places, uh, for people to do their thing, empowering others

00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:16.420
 to do that. And as a church, we want to empower people. That's right. We want to see that happen.

00:26:17.180 --> 00:26:22.800
 And, and so what I challenge, you know, my pastor friends around the same thing I was challenged

00:26:22.800 --> 00:26:27.360
 by is back to that simple line. What if we put the mission of the church back in the hands

00:26:27.360 --> 00:26:32.280
 of the church and the church's people? Um, the church was never intended to be funneled through,

00:26:32.280 --> 00:26:41.580
 uh, one person who became my primary, uh, um, uh, focus of attention. Uh, uh, being a part of the

00:26:41.580 --> 00:26:47.640
 church wasn't, wasn't, didn't, didn't mean just the one hour I showed up at a service somewhere.

00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:53.960
 Um, it meant that I was going to be engaged in this process. I was going to be, I was going to be

00:26:53.960 --> 00:26:59.340
 learning. I was going to be worshiping. I was going to be growing. I was going to be serving.

00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:06.620
 I was going to be hands and feet. And, and so how do we turn people loose to that? Because the

00:27:06.620 --> 00:27:11.820
 reality is where we even got to in a lot of places in ministry, and I always kind of get in trouble

00:27:11.820 --> 00:27:17.640
 with this is when we say service, we often mean serve us and we've got stuff. We need someone to

00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:23.860
 serve coffee or run the slides or shoot the cameras or be a youth coach on Wednesday nights.

00:27:23.960 --> 00:27:30.620
 And, and I've always been a believer that whether you served in the church or outside of the church,

00:27:30.620 --> 00:27:35.400
 as long as people were being served and God was being honored, that counted, that mattered.

00:27:36.060 --> 00:27:40.200
 Wow. And we were never going to see city transformation. We were never going to see

00:27:40.200 --> 00:27:46.820
 neighborhood transformation until we focus as much on scattering as we have on gathering.

00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:53.400
 We got the gathering thing down. I'm okay. Where's our scattering side? What's really happening on

00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:59.620
 that? How are, how are the most effective people to reach somebody are the people they're relationally

00:27:59.620 --> 00:28:05.940
 connected to, whether that's a neighbor or a coworker or somebody I'm playing softball with or

00:28:05.940 --> 00:28:13.380
 coaching their kids in a, in a youth league. And, and, and so the reach of the church gets way broader

00:28:13.380 --> 00:28:22.600
 when it's not defined on a geography of driving in or the limitation of a 55, 65 hour and a half,

00:28:22.660 --> 00:28:28.280
 whatever that has been at service or my, you know, the old measurement of butts and bucks and

00:28:28.280 --> 00:28:32.440
 baptisms is not how I think church health is going to be measured. I think it's been measured in

00:28:32.440 --> 00:28:38.360
 engagement and engagement will happen faster across the platform than it will be through a physical

00:28:38.360 --> 00:28:39.000
 location.

00:28:39.580 --> 00:28:43.380
 Well said, well said. I'm going to, I'm going to tell you right now, I'm going to totally steal the

00:28:43.380 --> 00:28:49.120
 service is sometimes serve us language. I'm going to give you credit the first time.

00:28:49.360 --> 00:28:50.940
 No worries. You know how this works, right?

00:28:51.120 --> 00:28:52.460
 I don't know that I can't.

00:28:54.880 --> 00:29:00.700
 That's so true. In the, the engagement with the two-way conversation, as we relationally start to

00:29:00.700 --> 00:29:06.600
 connect with these, these people are, are ones, the people within the circle of, of influence.

00:29:06.600 --> 00:29:12.740
 You know, we talk a lot about this idea of, of institutional ones, how your church has, has a

00:29:12.740 --> 00:29:19.700
 mission and a desire to reach individuals. And yes, it's possible for your organization to reach

00:29:19.700 --> 00:29:28.240
 individuals. It's a lot harder in 2020 because well, brands, organizations, you've lost your voice,

00:29:28.240 --> 00:29:35.600
 you know, and just even in this, this Twitter cancer, cancer, I'm sorry, let me speak. Twitter

00:29:35.600 --> 00:29:41.920
 cancel culture that we currently live in or organizations, we no longer have a voice or,

00:29:42.020 --> 00:29:48.200
 or really control. The, the real power is it, is in our individuals. And so the more that we can get

00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:54.200
 people who are, you know, I don't want to make this about the church, but, but loyal to the church

00:29:54.200 --> 00:30:00.320
 on mission to reach their circle of, of influence, to reach the people who are around them physically

00:30:00.320 --> 00:30:06.020
 or even digitally and help them get connected to Christ. And then through that connection to Christ,

00:30:06.120 --> 00:30:12.100
 get them into the church for more disciple making to actually happen. I mean, that's how we create

00:30:12.100 --> 00:30:19.300
 movements in 2020 and beyond. We were trending that way pre COVID. COVID is just gasoline on the flame

00:30:19.300 --> 00:30:23.920
 and we're, we're full on that path at this point, I would say. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, even,

00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:29.260
 even at a, at a base level, at a simple level, you know, churches are going to get more people

00:30:29.260 --> 00:30:35.740
 through their screen doors than they are through their lobby door. So, you know, I, I'm going to do

00:30:35.740 --> 00:30:39.820
 that. And, and, and here's what, you know, I mean, I don't know what, are you an iPhone or an Android

00:30:39.820 --> 00:30:45.180
 guy? Right. So that's the, that's the, that's the. Oh yeah. Totally iPhone. We'll see what Apple does

00:30:45.180 --> 00:30:49.180
 soon, but. So here's, here's, you know, what happened. Apple, you know, released the first

00:30:49.180 --> 00:30:54.820
 iPhone and they did. And what you could do was you could make phone calls, you could text and texting

00:30:54.820 --> 00:30:59.700
 actually behind the scenes is way more complicated than the little, you know, icon we've got on there.

00:31:00.180 --> 00:31:04.800
 They made it easy for us and you could, you had a flashlight and a calculator. Now I don't know who

00:31:04.800 --> 00:31:08.280
 at Apple decided those were two things that would actually cause me to want to buy the phone,

00:31:08.280 --> 00:31:14.440
 but they did. Well now on my phone are, are literally right. Hundreds and hundreds of apps.

00:31:14.900 --> 00:31:21.720
 I've picked most of them. Some of them were preloaded for me. Um, and, and they, and that app

00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:28.040
 has to work on this iOS platform, has to fit the standards, has to fit the rules. It has to,

00:31:28.120 --> 00:31:34.740
 has to have a great user interface and, and experience. So UI UX has to be good in all this.

00:31:35.280 --> 00:31:43.300
 Um, but most of the apps on my phone, I decided I wanted, or more than that, you would tell me

00:31:43.300 --> 00:31:48.680
 at lunch sometime, Hey, there's this app you ought to get. I use it to do my expenses or I use it to

00:31:48.680 --> 00:31:54.200
 entertain my kids or whatever that is. And I'm going, Oh, I need that app. You know, um, I just

00:31:54.200 --> 00:31:58.500
 got slide dialed because I think that's an awesome app, you know, or I can call people and my number

00:31:58.500 --> 00:32:08.800
 stays anonymous to them. So it's what, what iPhone is doing is providing the platform that facilitates

00:32:08.800 --> 00:32:18.140
 my experience, um, my digital life experience. And what, what I could see the church doing is

00:32:18.140 --> 00:32:24.620
 we create the iOS standard, right? We create the, Hey, these things you ought to pay attention to,

00:32:24.620 --> 00:32:29.180
 and they ought to work this way. And here's some recommended things for you to do to grow

00:32:29.180 --> 00:32:34.420
 spiritually and be engaged as a, as a transformer in your community, to be a better neighbor, to love

00:32:34.420 --> 00:32:41.880
 God, do those two things that Jesus said mattered most. Um, and, and, and we want to help you build

00:32:41.880 --> 00:32:48.320
 the journey that works for you because your journey and my journey aren't always the same. We're at

00:32:48.320 --> 00:32:52.420
 different points in life. We have different experiences going on. And so what are people doing

00:32:52.420 --> 00:32:59.700
 today, right? We're, we're crafting our own experiences and whether we think they're doing

00:32:59.700 --> 00:33:06.740
 it or not doing it, the reality is people are doing that. And so how am I, right? Thinking about

00:33:06.740 --> 00:33:15.740
 how we're leading the church kingdom stuff in, in 2020, how am I providing a way for people to create

00:33:15.740 --> 00:33:20.620
 a facilitated spiritual experience where they're connecting? So if I were still a pastor at Lightbridge,

00:33:20.620 --> 00:33:26.000
 I want people to connect into Lightbridge, but I'd have to admit the reality of they're not coming as

00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:32.720
 often as they used to. They're often attending other places, either online or in person, and they're

00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:39.860
 getting some of their spiritual nurturing from other things that their friends have recommended, or

00:33:39.860 --> 00:33:45.460
 they've seen something down the road. I can either put my head in the sand around that, or I can choose

00:33:45.460 --> 00:33:50.840
 to want to help be the platform where I become their base. I become the place they connect back.

00:33:50.840 --> 00:33:57.320
 I come when they help with questions or there's a need. It's not going to be a perfect world for us in

00:33:57.320 --> 00:34:03.360
 this. And gathering is still a part of this, but I want to facilitate that experience that takes it

00:34:03.360 --> 00:34:12.660
 away from my walls and takes it away from butts in seats and talks about actual impact of lives changed

00:34:12.660 --> 00:34:15.760
 and the transformation of a community because that happened.

00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:19.860
 Amen. Well, I'll tell you what, I want to pick on your iOS standard

00:34:19.860 --> 00:34:24.180
 analogy here a little bit because we're also getting relevant in the news.

00:34:25.180 --> 00:34:33.560
 Apple, in addition to Android App Store, has pulled one of the top selling apps out of the App Store here

00:34:33.560 --> 00:34:36.940
 just within the past week. I'm talking Fortnite, Epic Games.

00:34:37.600 --> 00:34:41.980
 Long story short, I don't want to get into it, but Epic said, hey, we're not going to acknowledge

00:34:41.980 --> 00:34:48.660
 Apple and Android's policy when it comes to in-app purchases because they're taking too much money

00:34:48.660 --> 00:34:53.820
 out. We want to keep the money. So forget it. We're going to ignore their policies that they're

00:34:53.820 --> 00:35:00.040
 ripping us off. And Apple and Android's in unison removed both the apps from the App Store.

00:35:00.260 --> 00:35:03.720
 I don't want to get into Fortnite. Honestly, I think I played it for 30 seconds.

00:35:04.180 --> 00:35:08.140
 Neither of my kids are tracking with that. They're thanking more Roblox for whatever reason.

00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:13.360
 And so it's irrelevant to me. That's all I'm going to say. But I think it does draw an interesting

00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:21.480
 analogy because what happens when somebody breaks that church standard? What happens if,

00:35:22.100 --> 00:35:27.320
 how do you do quality control? How do you do accountability? You know, I talk with sometimes

00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:31.760
 with people and they're like, you know, I had a guy tell me once, I don't know. I don't know if I

00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:37.520
 totally agree with this. But his statement was, you can control or you can grow, but you really

00:35:37.520 --> 00:35:44.280
 can't do both. So in an environment like this, where we as a church are acting as a platform,

00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:49.220
 encouraging others to do things, but there's some crazy people out there. Like I've attended a church

00:35:49.220 --> 00:35:53.380
 where a person literally said that they were the fourth bowl of the apocalypse. Maybe it was the

00:35:53.380 --> 00:35:57.920
 third bowl. That was their literal, not as a joke. That was what they literally thought they were,

00:35:57.980 --> 00:36:02.920
 that God was going to use them to be. And maybe it is, I have no idea. That's maybe I shouldn't say,

00:36:03.340 --> 00:36:10.680
 but how do you do accountability? How do you do quality control or, or do you, are those things

00:36:10.680 --> 00:36:13.420
 limiting to, to what the growth of the church could be?

00:36:13.940 --> 00:36:20.080
 So I think that, you know, one of the things the platform does is facilitate even the relational

00:36:20.080 --> 00:36:26.660
 connection, right? So there's a, there's a guy standing on a corner and he needs a ride from point A to

00:36:26.660 --> 00:36:33.800
 point B. And there was a person who, uh, signed up with Uber because they wanted something, right?

00:36:34.380 --> 00:36:41.140
 They wanted, uh, financial independence. They wanted an extra income. They needed a job. They

00:36:41.140 --> 00:36:45.280
 wanted to, uh, be bossed over their own schedule, whatever the reason is that they choose to do that.

00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:53.140
 What, what, uh, what Uber does is qualify and verify the driver and bring some qualification around the

00:36:53.140 --> 00:37:03.080
 rider. Right. And, and that's all been, uh, the people choose, right? Where the quality is. Well,

00:37:03.500 --> 00:37:10.380
 the church, the way we've always grown is to create relational equity. I connect you up with somebody

00:37:10.380 --> 00:37:14.320
 else. You know, at Lightbridge, I didn't know all the people that attended Lightbridge. I didn't know

00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:20.220
 all the people in our small groups. I was regularly meeting people who were serving in significant ways

00:37:20.220 --> 00:37:26.040
 that I wasn't personally relationally connected to. And so we've actually been doing this for a long

00:37:26.040 --> 00:37:32.960
 time anyways. And, and the quality control has always been a challenge. And so what did we do?

00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:38.540
 We forced people through all the hoops that we created, right? Whether that was, you know, uh,

00:37:38.540 --> 00:37:43.500
 to work baseball diamond or the stair steps, you know, even though people grow, grow spiritually kind

00:37:43.500 --> 00:37:50.460
 of looping more than they do, uh, just in a one, two, three, four. Um, but, but we always connected

00:37:50.460 --> 00:37:55.260
 them to others. And what we did was try to make sure that people were connecting them to had, had

00:37:55.260 --> 00:38:01.200
 something going themselves. And I think that the platform is the same. We're, I think we're going to

00:38:01.200 --> 00:38:05.400
 have, you're always going to have the crazies. You know, I remember small group leaders who went off

00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:10.920
 the reservation and started, you know, teaching WAPO stuff that we didn't agree with. Right. Um,

00:38:11.260 --> 00:38:17.360
 that's always been a reality, but, but when there's some crowdsourcing, when there's some

00:38:17.360 --> 00:38:22.560
 relational connection and we're helping people connect spiritually to others who are going to help

00:38:22.560 --> 00:38:29.100
 them grow spiritually, that's what a platform does. What it's, what it doesn't do is say that

00:38:29.100 --> 00:38:37.460
 everybody has to go through this one person to get bedded before, um, before they can be checked off

00:38:37.460 --> 00:38:41.780
 to actually do something. And there's danger in that, right? There's always the challenge in that,

00:38:41.940 --> 00:38:46.340
 but we've watched pastors pull off the reservation too. So I guess our checks and balances haven't

00:38:46.340 --> 00:38:51.880
 always been as good as we want. I don't know if that makes sense, but, and cause it's a concerning

00:38:51.880 --> 00:38:57.800
 thing. It is a challenge. Um, but, but I've always assumed that God was big enough to handle the

00:38:57.800 --> 00:39:03.700
 crazies. Um, and that, and the people who were seeking him and finding him would find relationally

00:39:03.700 --> 00:39:10.460
 the people that could help them do that. What is, what is training? What is onboarding look like

00:39:10.460 --> 00:39:18.020
 at a, at a church's platform church? Are you, uh, overtraining to make sure that, that they're under

00:39:18.020 --> 00:39:26.120
 control? Are you releasing them early and kind of letting them learn on the fly? Like what mentally,

00:39:26.120 --> 00:39:29.320
 when you, when you kind of envision what this looks like, what does it look like?

00:39:29.840 --> 00:39:34.760
 Yeah, I'm not really, actually, it's a great question. I think that, um, I think one, there

00:39:34.760 --> 00:39:41.200
 is some content attribution, right? So somebody who created, so you're creating a, here is good

00:39:41.200 --> 00:39:49.020
 content. Here is things that are biblically reliable and, and stay true to scripture. Um, I, I think

00:39:49.020 --> 00:39:56.440
 your, I think a platform could work when you're helping, uh, uh, someone who's a connector, right?

00:39:56.440 --> 00:40:02.180
 Every, every neighborhood has somebody who's the people person, they're the gatherer. Um, and then

00:40:02.180 --> 00:40:05.880
 there's somebody else who's saying, well, maybe here's some content. Here's, here's good content

00:40:05.880 --> 00:40:14.140
 that's available across the platform, uh, for you to use. And then there is, um, and, and, and in that,

00:40:14.220 --> 00:40:19.100
 I mean, because people are doing that today, right? People are, are now they're watching you preach,

00:40:19.100 --> 00:40:24.320
 but they're also watching, you know, Andy Stanley preach or whoever else they're choosing to watch

00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:29.420
 today. Um, and so they're, they're doing some of their own content. Can we help provide a kind of

00:40:29.420 --> 00:40:36.700
 an approved content or a content, a filter of sorts? Uh, can we help provide how you get connected to

00:40:36.700 --> 00:40:42.940
 others who are like you, who are growing spiritually? So whether you do that in a, in a, a digital group

00:40:42.940 --> 00:40:48.940
 or you do that in a one-on-one connections. And I think you're also facilitating then service.

00:40:48.940 --> 00:40:53.220
 Here are ways for you to get engaged where you're, where you can be serving some others. Um,

00:40:53.600 --> 00:40:59.120
 and so really, again, the platform comes back to where it's facilitating that journey.

00:40:59.680 --> 00:41:05.920
 It's not controlling that entire journey. Okay. I think we're early in and I think we're going to

00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:11.760
 fail more than we succeed on this. And, um, I think it's going to be a bit of an evolution. And I think

00:41:11.760 --> 00:41:17.920
 before it was debatable about whether this is where we're going. And now I think the debate's kind of

00:41:17.920 --> 00:41:22.560
 what we've done in reality is here. We've just pushed all these people to online. 84 million people

00:41:22.560 --> 00:41:28.640
 have streamed a service in the last six months. Yeah. And that, that'll actually segue. Okay. So

00:41:28.640 --> 00:41:34.800
 84 million people watch, watch the service, um, you know, online streaming. We're talking church's

00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:42.240
 platform. Now, like the, the extreme level that I am and my whole involvement, obviously digital

00:41:42.240 --> 00:41:50.160
 pastor online ministries, creating, you know, relational connections. I, the idea of, of doing a digital

00:41:50.160 --> 00:41:56.240
 only expression of church, one that doesn't require the physical footprint, creating community, uh, in

00:41:56.240 --> 00:42:03.280
 digital space, looking at Facebook as a people group to, to reach and going into those areas. Like

00:42:03.280 --> 00:42:11.400
 I'm that level of extreme guy. And so for me, the idea of church's platform is empowering because I would

00:42:11.400 --> 00:42:17.960
 want to look at the individuals, the physical attenders or even digital attenders of a church

00:42:17.960 --> 00:42:25.160
 and say, go find your circle of influence, whether it's physical or, or whether it's digital. And so

00:42:25.160 --> 00:42:31.640
 starting to even challenge to see micro locations pop up, or maybe somebody who's in another state

00:42:32.280 --> 00:42:39.320
 starts a micro location for the church at, at their house or at their workplace. And so we're moving

00:42:39.320 --> 00:42:47.480
 this idea of an online ministry into the offline world. Don't just be hearers of the word paraphrased

00:42:47.480 --> 00:42:55.320
 online, do what it says paraphrased in the real world. So we're seeing that migration of, of digital

00:42:55.880 --> 00:43:03.880
 things in the physical world and the ability for, um, uh, priesthood of believers to, to speak into that,

00:43:03.880 --> 00:43:10.280
 to have volunteers, be the pastor, to be the shepherd, maybe not the teacher, maybe not the preacher,

00:43:10.280 --> 00:43:16.840
 but the shepherd to oversee and care for. I can just tell you dozens, if not hundreds of stories of,

00:43:16.840 --> 00:43:23.880
 of churches, of micro locations in this season, where God's been doing things physically, when we can't even

00:43:23.880 --> 00:43:31.800
 get back into the building for, for whatever reasons there are. Is this idea of, and I truly, I'm looking

00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:38.040
 for blatant, blunt feedback on this because when I have conversations about digital-only expressions

00:43:38.040 --> 00:43:43.480
 of church, I've learned this. Um, there are either people who very much agree with it, or there are

00:43:43.480 --> 00:43:49.800
 people that are like willing to like throw down and just start yelling at the, a mere idea of, of

00:43:49.800 --> 00:43:54.600
 church happening in digital-only space. I, and I, I love the conversation because people are going to

00:43:54.600 --> 00:43:59.960
 be passionate one way or the other. Very rarely is somebody like, eh. So talk to me a little bit.

00:43:59.960 --> 00:44:06.040
 I'm just, I'm just curious. You know, this, this platform idea, applying it in digital-only space

00:44:06.040 --> 00:44:12.040
 to reach people digitally through social media platforms, through, you know, it's funny, we're

00:44:12.040 --> 00:44:17.240
 talking about, uh, fortnight through video games. There, there's been a movement of that recently,

00:44:17.240 --> 00:44:22.360
 virtual reality, places where you're not gathering together in physical space. I'm just curious,

00:44:22.360 --> 00:44:27.160
 what's, what's your take on that? I, what, what camp are you kind of falling into?

00:44:27.880 --> 00:44:34.120
 Yeah. You know, I, I, I'm going to lean towards that. That's going to become more and more of our future.

00:44:34.120 --> 00:44:42.200
 Right. So I, and I believe that downstream, um, you know, see if I can use this analogy.

00:44:42.680 --> 00:44:48.440
 So, so we thought we needed big office buildings to house all our staff and employees, various

00:44:48.440 --> 00:44:56.280
 companies. And what we figured out is that actually production, um, has gone up. Uh, the, the, uh,

00:44:56.280 --> 00:45:02.360
 quality of the work has gone up while we've all been doing, you know, zoom or my space,

00:45:02.360 --> 00:45:08.360
 use my teams, whatever we're using, right. For workplace. Um, that doesn't mean that every

00:45:08.360 --> 00:45:13.480
 office building is going to close. Um, but there's gonna be some repurposing. And I think

00:45:13.480 --> 00:45:18.840
 we're going to see more micro sites. Um, so now a business would have a place where there's a

00:45:18.840 --> 00:45:25.400
 biz hub center. If I have to go in and, you know, uh, get a notary, create, create some whiteboard

00:45:25.400 --> 00:45:30.360
 space where we're, where we're collaborating. There's still going to be a need for some relational

00:45:30.360 --> 00:45:34.920
 connection where you actually physically sit around a conference table at work, but commercial

00:45:35.480 --> 00:45:42.840
 spaces are clearly going more home-based more, more. I think you're going to see home sales

00:45:42.840 --> 00:45:49.560
 in the future, uh, be a, here was my zoom space in the room. Here was my biz hub center

00:45:49.560 --> 00:45:54.760
 that I had in my condo complex that I could go down and use it, uh, when I needed some things.

00:45:55.480 --> 00:46:00.280
 And so take that analogy over to the church, right? We're still going to need some biz hub centers,

00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:03.800
 so to speak. We're going to still need some points where we gather. I think gathering,

00:46:03.800 --> 00:46:10.280
 um, relationally is going to matter, but the move to micro church and the move to multi sites. So a

00:46:10.280 --> 00:46:14.920
 church could get large and still kind of stay small, right? You could have a site of 500 or a thousand,

00:46:14.920 --> 00:46:21.800
 2000, um, in places. Um, and now we're going to home churches, right? And, and those, I, I think,

00:46:21.800 --> 00:46:28.360
 uh, again, my hope would be that what the platform would do is help connect all of that together.

00:46:29.080 --> 00:46:34.600
 So that you had these micro sites, you had these individuals facilitating spiritual journey and

00:46:34.600 --> 00:46:42.360
 experience, and, and we were helping resource that out from the platform. Um, and that we weren't so

00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:48.920
 focused on the big auditorium, the big building, the dollars spent, um, on that facility. So,

00:46:48.920 --> 00:46:55.720
 so, so I think, I think that's where it's going. Hence, how do we get on that train now? No matter

00:46:55.720 --> 00:47:01.560
 where we are. So if you've already got physical expression, awesome. Where's your digital expression?

00:47:01.560 --> 00:47:05.880
 And not streaming services, you know, I'm not talking about just streaming services.

00:47:05.880 --> 00:47:12.920
 They're going to be an actual creating a digital space where people can connect and grow and create

00:47:12.920 --> 00:47:18.920
 part of their journey, uh, with you at a spiritual level. And if, if all we're excited about is going

00:47:18.920 --> 00:47:22.440
 back to now, now we're all going to stream and we're going to shoot from our platform because

00:47:22.440 --> 00:47:26.680
 think what just happened. You know, everybody has been sitting at home watching you and they're in

00:47:26.680 --> 00:47:31.720
 their underwear, eating pancakes, and they've been watching you from your home, teach them.

00:47:31.720 --> 00:47:37.080
 That's what, yeah. And the most effective ones have been around that. Not the, not everybody who went

00:47:37.080 --> 00:47:42.600
 just in their auditorium and shot from their stage, like the room was full. Um, there was a disconnect

00:47:42.600 --> 00:47:48.920
 there. So we're going to have to make this migration. So I land in the camp of that's where we're going.

00:47:48.920 --> 00:47:54.120
 And the faster you start making that shift, the, the, uh, I think you're going to be ahead of that

00:47:54.120 --> 00:48:01.080
 curve. Um, um, and you know, I mean, look at, look at Blockbuster, right? You know, they missed the

00:48:01.080 --> 00:48:08.680
 term. Um, they, they, they just absolutely, you can go in every city now and there's a blue awning

00:48:08.680 --> 00:48:10.600
 somewhere and that used to be a Blockbuster.

00:48:10.600 --> 00:48:16.600
 Here, here in Miami, it's a Taekwondo school. They, they, they turned the Blockbuster into a Taekwondo

00:48:16.600 --> 00:48:22.120
 school at US one and Southwest 152nd street. Just saying, love, love that. You know, they had

00:48:22.120 --> 00:48:24.920
 the opportunity. I don't want to die here, but they had the opportunity. They could have bought

00:48:24.920 --> 00:48:30.760
 Netflix to Netflix for 4 million, 7 million. It was pennies compared to what, what Netflix is.

00:48:30.760 --> 00:48:34.440
 And they said, nah, that's okay. We're going to, we're going to stick with the DVD thing, you know?

00:48:34.440 --> 00:48:39.400
 And listen, I, I, I tell people I used to own a Christian bookstore. I owned a Christian bookstore,

00:48:39.960 --> 00:48:45.160
 physical Christian bookstore in from 2003 to 2007. It was a million dollar store,

00:48:45.160 --> 00:48:50.280
 fastest growing Christian bookstore in the state of Florida. And I never thought this is honest to God

00:48:50.280 --> 00:48:56.440
 truth. I knew it was coming. I knew the shift was coming. I need books, blogs. People aren't

00:48:56.440 --> 00:49:01.880
 even going to read books anymore. Like I was the prophet saying that out loud while I owned the

00:49:01.880 --> 00:49:06.920
 Christian bookstore. I just didn't think it was going to happen as quick as it did. And I didn't

00:49:06.920 --> 00:49:12.440
 think it would turn the corner like it did. But in the context of about six months, um, we lost the

00:49:12.440 --> 00:49:19.640
 local Christian radio station here in Miami. Um, iTunes started, um, app store where you could buy

00:49:19.640 --> 00:49:25.880
 straight on the iPhone and, and at the same time, Amazon just exploded. All three of those things

00:49:25.880 --> 00:49:31.160
 happened. The only people who were coming into my store, they wanted to buy like the holy oil from

00:49:31.160 --> 00:49:36.840
 Israel to, to like, you know, do the, the whatever with the thing or the prayer shop or, or just the,

00:49:36.840 --> 00:49:40.920
 the gimmicky Christian stuff that you would buy from whatever Christian bookstores at the time.

00:49:40.920 --> 00:49:46.680
 Like it's just, it's, it dried up because we had the opportunity actually. And I, I tell people I had

00:49:46.680 --> 00:49:52.600
 someone maybe 10 months, less than a year from when I actually had to shut down the store. I had

00:49:52.600 --> 00:49:58.200
 somebody come into the store and try to buy my business. There was another Christian bookstore in

00:49:58.200 --> 00:50:04.600
 in another part of, uh, Florida. They, he was moving down here to Miami and he was just looking for

00:50:05.240 --> 00:50:09.400
 whatever to, you know, to extend this business and to do something local. So he tried to buy me out.

00:50:10.040 --> 00:50:14.600
 I didn't see it coming. I didn't think it'd be that quick. And, and, and even like in my mind,

00:50:14.600 --> 00:50:19.880
 I'm like, maybe I should the people around me. No, you'll be okay. You'll be okay. And sure enough,

00:50:19.880 --> 00:50:23.880
 less than a year later, we, we, we shut the doors down on it because it had closed. Well,

00:50:23.880 --> 00:50:27.080
 Hey, I don't want to, like I said, I didn't want to spend too much time on that. I do want to,

00:50:27.080 --> 00:50:31.880
 I want to ask you one more question because, um, you know, we've, we've been talking about not

00:50:31.880 --> 00:50:38.760
 broadcasting the services, um, or like that's, that's a teaching method, which is known for

00:50:38.760 --> 00:50:45.560
 consumerism, not for activity, not for action. And so as a result, sometimes it's harder to get people

00:50:45.560 --> 00:50:51.560
 on mission through that, or, or what's, what's the role? What's the purpose? Does the service for

00:50:51.560 --> 00:50:58.920
 evangelism or is it for, for on mission? Like if, if you were, if you were a lead pastor right now

00:50:58.920 --> 00:51:05.160
 and you were, I mean, you literally are, have been one. So like, this isn't a stretch and you're moving

00:51:05.160 --> 00:51:11.320
 your church to this idea of churches as platform. What is the purpose of the weekend service? Tell me

00:51:11.320 --> 00:51:17.400
 right now, physical, digital, what is the purpose? What's the goal? What's the role of, of the weekend

00:51:17.400 --> 00:51:23.000
 service? Yeah, I think that's a, that's a, it's a great, um, question to kind of plow into for,

00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:30.440
 for everyone. One, I think it, it still does serve a purpose of, of connecting people up and people

00:51:30.440 --> 00:51:34.360
 still are finding ways to bring their friends. I want to invite you to come to service. So,

00:51:34.920 --> 00:51:42.360
 so while we're moving from one, uh, mode of transportation to another, you know, I don't

00:51:42.360 --> 00:51:49.480
 think it's the time to abandon one, you know, the most confusing, uh, time in, in history with road

00:51:49.480 --> 00:51:57.640
 traffic stuff was when you had the cart and, and, uh, buggy with the horse and, and motorized vehicles.

00:51:57.640 --> 00:52:03.080
 They didn't know how to obey, uh, through, you had, and they were both running simultaneously.

00:52:03.080 --> 00:52:07.320
 And we're going to see that happen again, right? We've got now driverless vehicles coming.

00:52:07.320 --> 00:52:14.760
 And, and so one of my friends who's chief of, uh, detectives for accident investigations in the

00:52:14.760 --> 00:52:19.560
 entire city metro of Denver, they've been already working on what the rules are going to look like

00:52:19.560 --> 00:52:23.160
 and how they're going to handle response times and what they're going to do because they realize

00:52:23.720 --> 00:52:30.520
 that it's, it's the crossover where there's going to be, uh, confusion and injury and accident.

00:52:30.520 --> 00:52:35.800
 And we're in that crossover time. We're not going to, I don't think, I think the mistake might be

00:52:36.440 --> 00:52:40.520
 to put a sign up outside on life bridges doors, you know, where I was and say, Hey,

00:52:40.520 --> 00:52:44.600
 we're not meeting anymore. Physically. You can catch us online. Here we are. And God bless you.

00:52:44.600 --> 00:52:49.400
 I love you. Look forward to seeing it. Um, because we're in that crossover time.

00:52:49.960 --> 00:52:54.760
 What I would be suggesting is if there's not part of my team, because we know how to do weekends.

00:52:54.760 --> 00:52:58.520
 Well, right. Every, every church that's growing in the U S knows how to do weekends. Well,

00:52:58.520 --> 00:53:05.000
 we got that down. Where's my innovation coming? What staff are my pivoting? Um,

00:53:05.000 --> 00:53:10.680
 you know, four questions I've been asking pastors this, this last, um, six months is what have we

00:53:10.680 --> 00:53:17.160
 lost that needs to stay lost, um, in this season? What have we found that needs to stay found?

00:53:17.160 --> 00:53:21.800
 Um, what do we need to welcome back? Cause there's some stuff we need to welcome back.

00:53:21.800 --> 00:53:26.200
 And then how are we pivoting? Because if we don't pivot, if we don't pivot,

00:53:26.200 --> 00:53:33.000
 we're going to be riding in a horse buggy when everybody else has actually already shifted the

00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:39.560
 cars. Um, and so it's, it's that, and I, and I, I tend to be a change from within guy,

00:53:39.560 --> 00:53:44.520
 not a throw it out and start over guys. So you're getting my bent and bias on that, but,

00:53:44.520 --> 00:53:48.680
 but I think it's time for us to be thinking who on our staff right now,

00:53:48.680 --> 00:53:53.880
 am I pivoting to only be thinking about platform, only be thinking about my digital engagement

00:53:53.880 --> 00:54:00.280
 pathway, only be thinking about digital strategy, only be thinking, how am I figuring out who's out

00:54:00.280 --> 00:54:05.560
 there and how am I going to get them on an engagement journey that, that, that helps them discover

00:54:05.560 --> 00:54:08.840
 grace, grow in grace and live gracefully, right? How's that going to happen for them?

00:54:08.840 --> 00:54:14.120
 Yeah. I love that lost and found approach. Cause, cause there's definitely some new directions we

00:54:14.120 --> 00:54:20.280
 need to go to. Uh, but you've got to let go of, of, of some of the things the way that, that it was.

00:54:20.280 --> 00:54:27.160
 Otherwise, um, you're, you're, you're, it was, uh, Mark Bente, executive pastor at Church Home,

00:54:27.160 --> 00:54:32.840
 he's used the language when, when he transitioned from the physical to the very strong digital strategy

00:54:32.840 --> 00:54:37.800
 that Church Home has, uh, he said the staff would come in and do the, uh, I forget the, the biblical

00:54:37.800 --> 00:54:42.200
 reference, but it's the idea of you're asking me to make twice the bricks with, with the same amount

00:54:42.200 --> 00:54:47.240
 of, Hey, you're, you're not giving me the, the resources that I need to do this. And you're

00:54:47.240 --> 00:54:51.880
 wanting me to work twice as hard, but without, you know, ease, easing off. And, and, and, you know,

00:54:51.880 --> 00:55:00.280
 we saw that in, in March, April, May, June, uh, pastors were operating out of their comfort zone,

00:55:00.280 --> 00:55:05.880
 trying to do physical and digital and really didn't know how to do digital well. And as a result, the,

00:55:05.880 --> 00:55:12.040
 the, the mental capacities, the mental health, the burnout that we saw just was, I believe it was

00:55:12.040 --> 00:55:19.640
 unparalleled because it was so new and, and, and so many churches were jumping on to this online

00:55:19.640 --> 00:55:24.600
 thing. It's such a radical number without really understanding how it did and it burned them.

00:55:24.600 --> 00:55:29.080
 Yeah. Just as you just, no, just as you just said, yes, there's a confusion around that. Right. So,

00:55:29.080 --> 00:55:36.520
 because I know what to do in the model I'm currently operating and, and the rest of this is really kind

00:55:36.520 --> 00:55:41.560
 of unknown to me, you know, but what does data do? Data only helps us, you know, move, right? If I

00:55:41.560 --> 00:55:47.000
 said to you, Hey, when I woke up this morning, it was 40 degrees at my house. Um, you would say,

00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:51.080
 wow, you know, are you up in the mountains or do you need to get, you know, some heat? Uh, and I'd say,

00:55:51.080 --> 00:55:56.440
 well, it wasn't 40, uh, Fahrenheit. It was 40 Celsius. It was actually 104. And you'd be saying,

00:55:56.440 --> 00:56:00.120
 man, you better get some air conditioning then. Right. But if I said, well, it wasn't the

00:56:00.120 --> 00:56:06.680
 temperature in my house. It was somebody in my house at a temperature of 104. You might be saying,

00:56:06.680 --> 00:56:10.920
 you better get tested for COVID or maybe you got the flu. You better go see a doctor. And I said,

00:56:10.920 --> 00:56:15.560
 well, actually we have a four week old, uh, in our house. And it was him who had the 104. You'd be

00:56:15.560 --> 00:56:21.240
 calling 911 on my behalf at that point. And all that changed was you gained information. Well,

00:56:21.240 --> 00:56:24.680
 we've just been able to gain a whole bunch of information in the last six months.

00:56:25.320 --> 00:56:32.520
 And we can either choose to pretend it didn't happen, or we can start to make this pivot.

00:56:32.520 --> 00:56:38.040
 And I think the successful ministries, whatever that means, right? We have a whole lot of ways,

00:56:38.040 --> 00:56:41.720
 you know, I don't know what Outrage magazine is going to do in the future. I were going to,

00:56:41.720 --> 00:56:46.360
 what's the top 100 list going to look like in the future. What's that mean? It's not going to,

00:56:46.360 --> 00:56:51.640
 it's no longer going to be about what our weekend attendance was. Nobody even knows what that is.

00:56:52.920 --> 00:56:57.400
 Ask any pastor what their weekend attendance is right now. And they all say, well, pre-COVID,

00:56:57.400 --> 00:57:02.760
 we were X. And now I don't know. Yeah. Lots of, lots of questions,

00:57:02.760 --> 00:57:06.680
 lots of opportunities to learn, learning experiences coming out of this.

00:57:06.680 --> 00:57:12.360
 Um, you know, on a side note, and this, this may sound bad. I don't know how to say it well,

00:57:12.360 --> 00:57:18.840
 but I mean, I, I love it. The, the challenge of, this is something new. How, how can we figure this

00:57:18.840 --> 00:57:23.320
 out? How can we help the church? How can a church overcome some of these, these challenges? Like,

00:57:23.320 --> 00:57:30.920
 for me, it's, it's, it's refreshing because all the playbooks are thrown out. Anybody, anybody at this

00:57:30.920 --> 00:57:35.320
 point in 2020 who's like, I know what the future holds almost, I feel like they're kind of crazy

00:57:35.320 --> 00:57:40.360
 because I, I, it's, it's impossible to tell what, what we're going to do coming out of this because

00:57:40.360 --> 00:57:46.920
 the COVID thing has, has mixed it up and so much. And I just, I love the challenge of it. And this idea

00:57:46.920 --> 00:57:55.080
 of, of a, of a, of a, of a church as, as platform to me, I think is a, a natural extension of what the

00:57:55.080 --> 00:58:01.000
 church can be. And it's almost like COVID, I don't want to say forced it into existence,

00:58:01.000 --> 00:58:05.720
 but it definitely forced it into a relevant conversation because this idea of church's

00:58:05.720 --> 00:58:10.680
 platform really solves so much of the problem points, the pain points that we were feeling

00:58:10.680 --> 00:58:16.920
 pre-COVID, but definitely even during the midst of COVID, seeing how our, our buildings don't have

00:58:16.920 --> 00:58:22.520
 the, the impact that a Christ did, Troy, that it once did, say it, say it that way. You know,

00:58:22.520 --> 00:58:27.160
 I, I told a pastor once, don't freak out because you're, because your, your people aren't in the

00:58:27.160 --> 00:58:32.920
 building. Freak out that your people don't have a purpose when they're not in the building. Like,

00:58:32.920 --> 00:58:38.120
 let that be the thing that, that keeps us motivated and driven. Let's give them that purpose so that,

00:58:38.120 --> 00:58:44.840
 so that when COVID 2.0 comes up, when global pandemic 3.0 comes up, when hurricane natural

00:58:44.840 --> 00:58:49.960
 disaster comes in and wipes away your town, I've lived that in my life down here in Miami.

00:58:49.960 --> 00:58:56.920
 You know, there, there are definitely going to be times where your, your church cannot be your

00:58:56.920 --> 00:59:01.480
 building. And if we truly do believe that the church is the people, then let's start

00:59:01.480 --> 00:59:07.080
 acting and behaving that way. So Rick, man, sir, I want to thank you for the time. This has been a

00:59:07.080 --> 00:59:13.560
 great conversation. Just as, as we're, we're landing the plane here, any closing thoughts, any pearls of

00:59:13.560 --> 00:59:19.320
 wisdom, like mic drop, if you got it right here. Just, you know, when the gospel advanced

00:59:20.040 --> 00:59:26.120
 substantively, technology was, was at the base of that, right? When does, when does Jesus show

00:59:26.120 --> 00:59:30.920
 up? God sends him when Rome had already conquered the known world and it created a transportation

00:59:30.920 --> 00:59:37.480
 system, a road system. And, and so the gospel was able to go from Jerusalem to Judea, the Samaria,

00:59:37.480 --> 00:59:42.920
 the other most parts of the world, because there was a natural system for that to happen. And then

00:59:42.920 --> 00:59:48.680
 when the printing press came about and the Bible got put in people's hands, Reformation was launched,

00:59:48.680 --> 00:59:54.600
 we saw the gospel spread, you know, across the known world. And I think God's going to use this moment

00:59:56.120 --> 01:00:05.160
 to advance the kingdom, to break out of some of the modes we've been in and give us new ways to empower

01:00:05.160 --> 01:00:11.720
 and enrich and engage people so that, so that the kingdom advances. I'm just convinced.

01:00:11.720 --> 01:00:19.080
 Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a scary, powerful, awe-inspiring thought. God's using COVID,

01:00:19.720 --> 01:00:26.840
 God's in control, even in this COVID season. And as a result, God's breaking what his church looks

01:00:26.840 --> 01:00:32.360
 like. He's breaking the model of the church. I, I, maybe, maybe scholarly people better than me will

01:00:32.360 --> 01:00:38.920
 know, but I, when God breaks something, I don't know that he has ever put it back exactly the way

01:00:38.920 --> 01:00:48.280
 that it was. Like I, I, Job lost all the people. He may have gained more back, but there was no undo

01:00:48.280 --> 01:00:54.520
 button for, for, for Job. And biblically, I don't, I don't think there's an undo button historically in

01:00:54.520 --> 01:00:58.840
 that context. I don't think there's an undo button here. I don't think the challenge is for us as a

01:00:58.840 --> 01:01:03.640
 church to get back to the way that it was February. It doesn't, it doesn't work that way.

01:01:03.640 --> 01:01:10.200
 Um, learn the lessons of, of this COVID season, adapt to where we are. Um, and, and, and prayerfully

01:01:10.200 --> 01:01:14.680
 through, through God's support, we'll understand, uh, the vision and the direction that he'll have

01:01:14.680 --> 01:01:20.840
 for his church, uh, here in America and, and, uh, and beyond, of course. So Rick, sir, thank you

01:01:20.840 --> 01:01:26.920
 very much for, for, for the time here. Obviously, glue, uh, externally focused church. Uh, we'll put links

01:01:26.920 --> 01:01:32.760
 to, uh, a bunch of the things in the show notes there with that, but, um, thank you. Appreciate you

01:01:32.760 --> 01:01:36.920
 being on. For Rick, this is Jeff at the Church Digital. Hey, audience, y'all, thanks for being

01:01:36.920 --> 01:01:39.480
 here again, and we'll see you next time here on the show. Y'all have a good day.