WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.100 Episode 94 of the Church Digital Podcast, once again, powered by Stadia Church Planning. 00:00:04.220 --> 00:00:04.640 Jeff here. 00:00:05.100 --> 00:00:10.160 This was a really enjoyable, fun, this is probably one of the more deeper conversations 00:00:10.160 --> 00:00:12.660 we've had here on the podcast. 00:00:12.940 --> 00:00:17.000 You see, I don't know, maybe a couple weeks ago, I got asked to speak at a webinar, and 00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:20.140 you know, they give you a list of questions, hey, there are the things we want to talk 00:00:20.140 --> 00:00:21.540 about, so be prepared to answer this. 00:00:21.540 --> 00:00:28.120 And one of the questions that I got for this particular event was, how do you discipline 00:00:28.120 --> 00:00:31.560 someone in digital-only church? 00:00:32.380 --> 00:00:38.220 And so, my knee-jerk reaction was, okay, like, it's not discipline, I mean, discipleship, 00:00:38.280 --> 00:00:43.280 but when I kind of pulled the thread on a little bit, what they really meant was discipline, 00:00:43.520 --> 00:00:50.720 like, not discipling someone, but like, there's sin in a church member's life, and the pastor 00:00:50.720 --> 00:00:52.080 needs to speak into it. 00:00:52.380 --> 00:00:55.000 What does that look like in digital-only space? 00:00:55.940 --> 00:00:57.260 Phenomenal question, by the way. 00:00:57.360 --> 00:01:03.380 Love the fact that we, the church, are now starting to wrestle with this idea of digital 00:01:03.380 --> 00:01:08.580 church, even to the level of, how do we discipline someone in that space? 00:01:09.060 --> 00:01:12.860 And so, like, I had a preconceived notion that I was like, hey, let me, this is probably 00:01:12.860 --> 00:01:13.920 the answer I want to say. 00:01:14.420 --> 00:01:16.900 But I paused, and I said, hey, let's do this instead. 00:01:17.160 --> 00:01:23.060 I want to ask three church planters, three digital-only church planters, three digital 00:01:23.060 --> 00:01:29.440 churches that have been existing for multiple years, and are all thriving and healthy, how 00:01:29.440 --> 00:01:36.500 do they handle this idea of discipline within their digital-only expression of church? 00:01:36.720 --> 00:01:42.660 And so, we opened up this Facebook thread, and we had such a phenomenal conversation within 00:01:42.660 --> 00:01:46.140 Facebook Messenger that I decided, hey, we're going to make a podcast out of this. 00:01:46.140 --> 00:01:50.580 And so, we invited them on the podcast so that you, listening audience out there, can listen 00:01:50.580 --> 00:01:55.580 while we try to figure out how to do church discipline in a digital-only space. 00:01:55.700 --> 00:01:57.100 So, here's who we're bringing to the conversation. 00:01:57.800 --> 00:02:03.220 DJ Soto, not a stranger here to the podcast, been on quite a bit. 00:02:03.780 --> 00:02:11.360 Lead pastor, VR church, three to four, five different virtual reality churches that are 00:02:11.360 --> 00:02:15.360 existing, different continents, different platforms, phenomenal ministry happening there. 00:02:15.480 --> 00:02:21.760 Angela Craig, Pursuit Church Live, the first social media church in the Assemblies of God 00:02:21.760 --> 00:02:24.460 denomination, maybe all of them. 00:02:24.500 --> 00:02:29.840 I don't know, a lot of, like, churches, and especially the reach that she's getting with 00:02:29.840 --> 00:02:32.280 this, and she talks some about her church as well. 00:02:32.560 --> 00:02:34.320 And we're also bringing in Jade Earhart. 00:02:34.980 --> 00:02:38.540 Also, once again, no stranger here to the podcast. 00:02:39.740 --> 00:02:43.800 Jade is with LoveClan, this video game church. 00:02:43.860 --> 00:02:46.160 She's doing a lot of stuff on Twitch, a lot of stuff on Discord. 00:02:46.700 --> 00:02:54.500 Some phenomenal, gifted, digitally-minded people that are seeing success within their church, 00:02:54.940 --> 00:02:58.000 and God is continuing to bless their ministry. 00:02:58.000 --> 00:03:04.100 And we asked all three of them, how do you discipline people within your digital-only expression 00:03:04.100 --> 00:03:04.840 of church? 00:03:05.280 --> 00:03:07.460 And I got to tell you, I love the responses. 00:03:07.660 --> 00:03:08.720 I love this conversation. 00:03:09.580 --> 00:03:12.360 Not a lot of tech, but it is going to apply. 00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:17.600 Honestly, the heart of this is going to apply to the physical church as well as the digital 00:03:17.600 --> 00:03:20.900 church and any digital-only expressions of church. 00:03:20.940 --> 00:03:23.400 So I promise you, there's going to be stuff you're going to take away from this. 00:03:23.680 --> 00:03:26.340 So DJ, by the way, DJ is in virtual reality. 00:03:26.460 --> 00:03:30.560 So if you want to see DJ have this conversation in VR, swing over to my YouTube channel, 00:03:30.980 --> 00:03:33.460 YouTube slash TheChurchDigital. 00:03:33.640 --> 00:03:37.860 Over there, you can see it in YouTube, him interacting with his avatar. 00:03:38.340 --> 00:03:39.820 Angela Craig from Pursuit Church. 00:03:40.340 --> 00:03:42.440 Jade Earhart from LoveClan. 00:03:42.480 --> 00:03:44.160 And myself, Jeff, with TheChurchDigital. 00:03:44.620 --> 00:03:50.340 In a conversation that I'm calling Church Discipline in Digital Spaces. 00:03:50.780 --> 00:03:52.240 Okay, everybody, here you go. 00:03:52.820 --> 00:03:59.800 Maybe even just to kind of start the conversation out here, initial thoughts, when you guys look 00:03:59.800 --> 00:04:05.120 at or when you think about church discipline, when you think about that accountability piece, 00:04:05.980 --> 00:04:10.520 what are the immediate thoughts in context of your respective churches that kind of jump 00:04:10.520 --> 00:04:11.020 out at you? 00:04:11.020 --> 00:04:17.380 You know, when you ask that question, I'm thinking about how I did church when I worked 00:04:17.380 --> 00:04:18.520 in a physical church. 00:04:19.420 --> 00:04:24.120 And this, I'm not going to say this is every church, but typically church discipline went 00:04:24.120 --> 00:04:24.580 like this. 00:04:24.620 --> 00:04:27.660 So I'll give you the example of a husband has an affair. 00:04:28.380 --> 00:04:31.940 And they come to the pastor's church office. 00:04:32.180 --> 00:04:35.760 And as a pastor, you, you know, talk to them about the sin. 00:04:35.860 --> 00:04:38.740 You talk to them about counseling, reconciliation. 00:04:39.480 --> 00:04:46.620 And typically what would happen if one person wasn't into the, to whatever you were suggesting 00:04:46.620 --> 00:04:53.920 as far as reconciliation process of counseling, then they would, one or two would leave the 00:04:53.920 --> 00:04:54.220 church. 00:04:54.220 --> 00:04:57.900 And then as a pastor, you're like, well, I've done all I can. 00:04:58.080 --> 00:05:00.240 So look, my conscious is clean. 00:05:00.460 --> 00:05:08.740 I need the, I need the emoji, like, but I think if we, and we've had previous conversations 00:05:08.740 --> 00:05:14.360 about this is what does church discipline look like in a traditional church right now in four 00:05:14.360 --> 00:05:14.700 walls? 00:05:14.940 --> 00:05:21.900 And that was something that was disturbing to me because from the beginning of the Bible 00:05:21.900 --> 00:05:26.640 to the end, God is talking about reconciliation with him and with others. 00:05:26.940 --> 00:05:28.300 And so how can we do that better? 00:05:28.440 --> 00:05:29.980 Well, it starts with the relationship. 00:05:30.620 --> 00:05:32.220 Yeah, no, I agree with that. 00:05:32.420 --> 00:05:37.360 And, you know, think about when Jesus and the woman caught in the act of adultery, you know, 00:05:37.420 --> 00:05:40.480 he, she was restored in the moment, you know, go and send no more. 00:05:40.540 --> 00:05:45.460 That's like a, you can kind of zoom in on that story and really pull out some ideas of spiritual 00:05:45.460 --> 00:05:48.000 church discipline, but not to get sidetracked. 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:52.800 I do think that doctrine needs to be reviewed because more often than not, at least from 00:05:52.800 --> 00:05:56.400 my perspective, I've seen church discipline be abused. 00:05:57.000 --> 00:05:58.600 Spiritual abuse is a real thing. 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:05.580 Even here in 2020, I was, I saw a story where elders have gone beyond what scripture has guided 00:06:05.580 --> 00:06:11.240 them to do in reconciliation and have really controlled people with fear and manipulation 00:06:11.240 --> 00:06:17.680 and going beyond the mutual submission from a person in the church and their leadership. 00:06:17.940 --> 00:06:22.700 And so, you know, I don't want to get sidetracked, but I feel like that needs to be looked at 00:06:22.700 --> 00:06:28.280 because I just don't know personally if I've seen a good example of church discipline. 00:06:28.280 --> 00:06:32.040 And as a matter of fact, when people bring that word up, it's like a red flag and just 00:06:32.040 --> 00:06:37.740 kind of like immediately puts me on alert that they're, when someone brings that up, that 00:06:37.740 --> 00:06:41.360 they have want to have control over people and not everybody. 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:45.120 I'm sure people have, have done it well, but it certainly is a red flag. 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:51.040 But I think in the Facebook thread that we were having before, I love that idea of reconciliation 00:06:51.040 --> 00:06:52.900 rather than discipline. 00:06:53.060 --> 00:06:57.480 I don't know, discipline just sounds so like final and like there's just an attitude behind 00:06:57.480 --> 00:07:01.200 it where reconciliation, at least for me, maybe it's just semantics. 00:07:01.200 --> 00:07:07.420 The spirit of that word represents what Christ does to restore and renew and to bring back. 00:07:07.640 --> 00:07:13.160 And I think you see that expression with Paul to the Corinthian church who had some really 00:07:13.160 --> 00:07:17.740 jacked up things going on there, but he was like, you know, well, that's interesting. 00:07:17.940 --> 00:07:19.060 You know, I just thought of that. 00:07:19.240 --> 00:07:24.360 Like Paul enacted, if you want to use the word church discipline with the church at Corinth. 00:07:24.680 --> 00:07:25.840 And how did he do that? 00:07:25.880 --> 00:07:26.560 Through a letter. 00:07:27.100 --> 00:07:32.380 And he was hoping that letter, which would be, you know, interacted, interacted asynchronously, 00:07:32.460 --> 00:07:35.000 if you will, would have an effect. 00:07:35.380 --> 00:07:39.540 So that he, when he goes there to visit them in person, it had already been taken care of. 00:07:39.960 --> 00:07:46.240 So that's like an example of before Facebook and virtual reality and discord, you know, 00:07:46.400 --> 00:07:52.380 the church or spiritual reconciliation was happening via letters and I'm sure face to face. 00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:54.460 And so that hasn't changed. 00:07:54.460 --> 00:08:00.020 Like to think that church discipline and I'm going to retire that word for my, for me during 00:08:00.020 --> 00:08:05.820 this conversation, uh, spiritual reconciliation, um, to think that that can't happen, um, you 00:08:05.820 --> 00:08:10.760 know, on Facebook, um, in VR, when the first examples we've seen was done through letters, 00:08:10.760 --> 00:08:13.040 I think you might, we might be missing that. 00:08:13.200 --> 00:08:18.320 So, um, yeah, anyway, so those are my thoughts about, about spiritual reconciliation and a VR 00:08:18.320 --> 00:08:18.640 church. 00:08:18.740 --> 00:08:24.000 We, if I think about it, we do it quite a bit, but it's in the spirit of encouragement, 00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:27.420 you know, uh, we're humans or humans, things are going to happen. 00:08:27.520 --> 00:08:28.780 Attitudes are going to flare up. 00:08:29.140 --> 00:08:33.300 Um, there is that passage, I think it's in Philippians where Paul was talking to two women 00:08:33.300 --> 00:08:37.620 and saying, Hey, settle your, your disagreements, get that figured out. 00:08:37.620 --> 00:08:44.740 And so even whether it's physical or, or social media or virtual reality, we've, um, we've 00:08:44.740 --> 00:08:46.220 have had conversations. 00:08:46.220 --> 00:08:53.540 And like Angela was saying, it's about relationships, conversations, um, discipleship, and, um, that 00:08:53.540 --> 00:08:55.580 can be done in, in over the telephone. 00:08:55.580 --> 00:08:57.020 It can be done through a letter. 00:08:57.020 --> 00:09:00.260 It can be done face to face and with avatar to avatar. 00:09:00.820 --> 00:09:06.600 And so the idea that you can't have that expression of Christianity in these digital 00:09:06.600 --> 00:09:09.820 environments, um, I think is a miss to think that way. 00:09:10.060 --> 00:09:11.060 So that's excellent. 00:09:11.060 --> 00:09:15.540 I want to pull Jay into this because he had some really great examples of relationship. 00:09:15.540 --> 00:09:20.040 And I think maybe for those that are listening that possibly aren't doing digital church might 00:09:20.040 --> 00:09:25.040 wonder how that happens online, as far as building those deep one-on-one relationships. 00:09:25.040 --> 00:09:31.900 And, and what DJ was saying from first Corinthians in chapter five, apostle Paul calls us to the 00:09:31.900 --> 00:09:33.760 ministry of reconciliation. 00:09:33.760 --> 00:09:37.960 And all those letters are written through the lens of love. 00:09:38.080 --> 00:09:43.360 And so the example I gave earlier of the husband and the wife that come and the husband has an 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:43.640 affair. 00:09:43.640 --> 00:09:48.080 Now that husband just sat in church on Sunday mornings, maybe once a month or twice a month 00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:50.520 for 30 minutes, he had no relationship with anybody. 00:09:50.520 --> 00:09:56.560 And so that's really where we need to examine, whether we have in-person or online, we need 00:09:56.560 --> 00:10:03.420 to examine where that miss is, where that hole is, why people leave church when they fall 00:10:03.420 --> 00:10:05.040 into sin, because we all do sin. 00:10:05.760 --> 00:10:08.400 So Jade, share some of your experiences. 00:10:09.040 --> 00:10:10.160 Um, no, that's a good example. 00:10:10.160 --> 00:10:16.560 Actually, that was when I had written down first Corinthians five, that that's like, um, you 00:10:16.560 --> 00:10:20.440 know, that they are associating with this, with this person. 00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:26.600 Um, it's sexual immorality is like a highly rampant. 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:34.720 Um, and in that culture and that there's, um, that's a, I think what's important to note 00:10:34.720 --> 00:10:40.060 is that's a very extreme case, you know, like that's a person who is sleeping with their 00:10:40.060 --> 00:10:44.940 father's wife, you know, and it even says that's a, there's something even the pagans 00:10:44.940 --> 00:10:46.340 don't tolerate, you know? 00:10:46.340 --> 00:10:48.700 And, and, and yet you guys are associating with this. 00:10:49.320 --> 00:10:54.260 Um, and so you, you need this to not be something that you associate with, you know, and that 00:10:54.260 --> 00:10:57.280 you hand this person over, uh, to the destruction of their flesh. 00:10:57.280 --> 00:11:06.100 If, if that's something that they are non, um, they're non-repentant of, you know? 00:11:06.180 --> 00:11:10.760 Uh, and I think that's a, there's a, there's a very big difference between somebody who's 00:11:10.760 --> 00:11:16.840 struggling with something and somebody who is non-repentant of something. 00:11:17.480 --> 00:11:25.060 Uh, and I think a lot of times where we cross the line is if, um, if we're, you know, trying 00:11:25.060 --> 00:11:30.520 to, um, if we notice somebody is sinning and then we, therefore we're like, well, they continue 00:11:30.520 --> 00:11:31.320 to sin with this. 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:35.260 And so I guess we're going to just, you know, whatever that there's a big difference between 00:11:35.260 --> 00:11:39.560 that and just saying, yeah, I, I'm non-repentant of this and I don't care at all. 00:11:39.680 --> 00:11:41.640 I think that's, that's first and foremost. 00:11:41.740 --> 00:11:48.260 The second thing is like Matthew 18, um, where there's, uh, the, probably the biggest example, 00:11:48.260 --> 00:11:52.320 but if somebody sins against you, then you go to them one-on-one. 00:11:53.060 --> 00:12:00.240 Um, and, and what I, what I think is, um, interesting here is, I mean, that, that pretty clearly says 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:06.820 if somebody sins against you, you know, um, this is a sin that happens directly to you. 00:12:07.220 --> 00:12:11.520 So then you go to that person one-on-one and if they're not willing to hear you, basically 00:12:11.520 --> 00:12:19.860 again, unrepentant, um, then you go with somebody else just to make sure that it's not just you 00:12:19.860 --> 00:12:21.340 that's hearing these things. 00:12:21.340 --> 00:12:27.680 And if you go with somebody else and they're still non-repentant, then you go before the church. 00:12:27.820 --> 00:12:30.620 And that's, I mean, that's like, that's the case where it leads. 00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:31.420 It's very clear. 00:12:31.500 --> 00:12:34.520 It says, here's the path that leads to essentially excommunication. 00:12:35.300 --> 00:12:39.700 Um, but it's really based on the, on the idea of unrepentance. 00:12:39.700 --> 00:12:48.780 Um, so in, in both of those cases, it's somebody who has a pattern of sin, um, that doesn't show 00:12:48.780 --> 00:12:52.220 struggle or acknowledgement of it. 00:12:52.220 --> 00:12:57.520 And so then it leads to, this is the stead, you know, this, this stage that we get to. 00:12:58.520 --> 00:13:03.420 Um, I just think that's important to note because I think that's really where the heart of, 00:13:03.500 --> 00:13:08.680 in my opinion, that's probably where the heart of people would come from. 00:13:08.680 --> 00:13:15.340 If they were from a modern church background, not knowing online church, not thinking at 00:13:15.340 --> 00:13:20.080 all about, uh, that these are verses that they would probably come to mind. 00:13:20.160 --> 00:13:22.440 It would be like, let's, well, let's talk about these things. 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:24.180 So let's get them out in the open. 00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:31.240 Um, what we've mentioned in chat before this, uh, and what I think is worth just bringing up 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:37.760 again, um, any of these things are just as important online as they are in person. 00:13:38.280 --> 00:13:44.020 And, uh, a lot of the times they're done just as poorly in person as they are done online. 00:13:44.820 --> 00:13:48.900 So if, if there's anything that you're looking at and you're like, wow, man, I, you know, 00:13:49.700 --> 00:13:51.020 that's a really great point. 00:13:51.180 --> 00:13:53.040 Um, you know, yeah, let's do that. 00:13:53.220 --> 00:13:59.920 Let's, let's, before we look at the, the online church and say the online church is, is not doing 00:13:59.920 --> 00:14:05.780 this effectively, it's a good chance that we're also not doing it effectively, uh, in a, in a 00:14:05.780 --> 00:14:06.720 physical church. 00:14:06.940 --> 00:14:13.920 Uh, and so those are not things that we need to, you know, condemn an online church for 00:14:13.920 --> 00:14:18.340 or whatever, but, um, that we need to, as a group, as a collective church, we need to all 00:14:18.340 --> 00:14:19.920 look at and say, how can we do this effectively? 00:14:20.840 --> 00:14:25.680 Um, and so with that, with that side, yeah, let's move forward and like, let's discuss ways that we 00:14:25.680 --> 00:14:32.380 can, as a local church and as an online church, as a body of believers, how can we work towards a 00:14:32.380 --> 00:14:34.960 better, um, capital C church? 00:14:35.620 --> 00:14:43.460 And, um, I, I, I, I think it's actually kind of funny, um, and maybe not coincidental that we did start 00:14:43.460 --> 00:14:49.000 off by accidentally thinking, oh yeah, he's talking about discipleship, um, not discipline. 00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:55.140 And, uh, you know, that's, it's important and, um, and kind of, it's funny because it's like, yeah, 00:14:55.140 --> 00:15:01.860 that's almost the answer to a lot of our, a lot of our woes, right? Like, uh, discipline, um, comes, 00:15:02.100 --> 00:15:11.740 comes as a step in discipleship, like it, as it should, um, it's the, it's the continual teaching 00:15:11.740 --> 00:15:20.040 of, of people. And I actually really like the idea of, okay, yeah, you, you want to discipline 00:15:20.040 --> 00:15:27.440 somebody. Um, okay, well then you should have lots of steps that lead up to that. Even biblically, 00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:31.620 it shows an example and says, this is the steps that you take. And that's what I think of when I 00:15:31.620 --> 00:15:37.720 think of discipleship is you're leading people down a journey, uh, to being closer in a direction 00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:46.520 towards Jesus. And, um, that, that does not mean, uh, if I was, you, you would be out of your mind. 00:15:46.520 --> 00:15:51.400 There's no church that thinks, yes, let's start a church in Vegas. And the first day that people 00:15:51.400 --> 00:15:54.820 walk through the door, we say, yeah, tell us everything. And then we're going to, you know, 00:15:55.040 --> 00:15:59.520 we're going to really slam in India because, you know, that's what the Bible says. You'd be like, 00:15:59.560 --> 00:16:04.020 well, no, I mean, there's a lot of steps that take before they get up to that point. Exactly. And so we 00:16:04.020 --> 00:16:08.780 need to have, we need to have discipleship because we need to have a relationship with somebody, 00:16:08.780 --> 00:16:13.200 not because it makes it easier for us to say, oh yeah, you know, we can just really slam it into 00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:18.220 you, but because we don't care as much about, um, slamming it into somebody as we do about this 00:16:18.220 --> 00:16:26.240 person's eternal lasting relationship with Jesus. And it's just natural human that if you're to just 00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:30.400 slam somebody into that, well, you're judging somebody, you know, am I going to judge those 00:16:30.400 --> 00:16:32.580 outside of the church or am I going to judge those inside the church? 00:16:33.020 --> 00:16:38.160 There's a, there's a, a, a mistake, a mystique there. There's a, an image sometimes that we're, 00:16:38.160 --> 00:16:43.640 we're, we're using the church discipline, or even we're, we're doing the discipleship as a way of, 00:16:43.640 --> 00:16:50.120 of controlling people, uh, of, of getting people to do what we want them to do. And I'm not even 00:16:50.120 --> 00:16:54.680 making this about digital. I, I think it's physical. I think it's, it's maybe just a perception. Maybe 00:16:54.680 --> 00:17:00.020 it's American church. Maybe it's outside. I can't speak outside as well as in the U S but you know, 00:17:00.020 --> 00:17:06.220 if what we're talking about here, it's at the, at the church leadership level, it's, it's really, 00:17:06.220 --> 00:17:09.880 it's not about control. Is it what, what is it really when you get to the heart of it? What's it 00:17:09.880 --> 00:17:15.400 about? I think that there's a big hole in, in traditional church, at least the ones that I've 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:21.440 worked in and, and I'm an era leader in our network of 340 churches. So like a pastor, two pastors, 00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:28.240 and we've gotten into a totally different discipleship model of Sunday morning and small, 00:17:28.340 --> 00:17:34.440 small groups are fantastic. But my mentor, Don Ross, um, taught me something that really has worked. 00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:41.760 And this is how he transformed his, um, his, his, his, he's the author of turnaround church for pastors. 00:17:42.300 --> 00:17:45.400 And he transformed his church by doing a one-on-one 00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:52.220 discipleship model. And that, so we've taken that on and that's really where the hard work is. And I, 00:17:52.220 --> 00:17:58.680 I see that in each of my friends ministries here online that are here in this podcast is that we are 00:17:58.680 --> 00:18:04.000 really one-on-one with people and, and it's tough and it's tiring. And so if I'm to say to a pastor 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:09.200 that's in a church right now, you need to do all the things you're doing for your church and disciple 00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:16.260 people one-on-one like Jesus, um, did like the apostles did. Um, we set it up so that when someone 00:18:16.260 --> 00:18:21.780 comes in, they walk with another person who's already mentoring someone else. And so they learn that 00:18:21.780 --> 00:18:29.140 way. And it's, it's that daily connection that we have the opportunity to do online and digitally 00:18:29.140 --> 00:18:36.820 that we don't in, in church and especially in a pandemic right now. So, um, that's how we're doing 00:18:36.820 --> 00:18:41.980 it and seeing an incredible amount of fruit. And I will give some examples later, but I want to hear 00:18:41.980 --> 00:18:42.760 from everybody else. 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:48.060 Oh, I was just going to mention, like, I want to, I actually do want to hear an example from you, 00:18:48.140 --> 00:18:54.760 but, um, no, just like what Angela is saying and a point that's worth making, uh, is that we, 00:18:55.040 --> 00:19:00.720 we often see that people say, well, you know, this person's been coming because there is a timeframe. 00:19:01.020 --> 00:19:05.820 I do believe there, there is a certain timeframe at which things need to be said. Uh, and 00:19:05.820 --> 00:19:12.580 especially, uh, this person, when I'm thinking about in my head, the example of Paul saying, 00:19:12.780 --> 00:19:19.420 well, we know that this person has this, that's happening. They are sleeping with their, uh, 00:19:19.580 --> 00:19:25.120 father's wife or whatever, you know? I mean, this is like extreme example, but for Paul to have heard 00:19:25.120 --> 00:19:28.980 it means that it not, I mean, he doesn't have Facebook. It's not like he logged in that day 00:19:28.980 --> 00:19:33.760 and somebody said, Hey, by the way, you know, it's like it, it was heard. It was known amongst 00:19:33.760 --> 00:19:39.580 the congregation. It was then spread all the way to him who threw somebody else. And he had time to 00:19:39.580 --> 00:19:43.940 write a letter that then got, you know, like this is a longstanding thing. So there is something about 00:19:43.940 --> 00:19:53.520 time that happens in this. Um, and with online, we, rather than in a physical church where we can say, 00:19:53.620 --> 00:20:00.520 well, uh, yeah, you have Sunday morning and then you go home and then you're, you know, I don't see 00:20:00.520 --> 00:20:05.280 you again until the next Sunday. I might see you again on a small group. Definitely not everybody, 00:20:05.280 --> 00:20:11.300 you know, and that this is, this is a big difference from online. Um, and why I think 00:20:11.300 --> 00:20:17.520 that we really do need to have some hybrid where we're meeting in, in, uh, online, if you're only 00:20:17.520 --> 00:20:23.560 meeting local, because you just have more opportunities to meet. Uh, and, and I don't 00:20:23.560 --> 00:20:26.560 really care how you do it. If it's like, Oh, we're going to do a go live on Facebook, 00:20:26.560 --> 00:20:32.460 Facebook, or we're going to do a zoom meeting or whatever this is, but you need some way to meet 00:20:32.460 --> 00:20:37.840 throughout the week because that's just coin in the idea that you're like actually having your 00:20:37.840 --> 00:20:43.660 conversations weekly that you're having are more during the week that you're having all things in 00:20:43.660 --> 00:20:47.540 common. You can't have that. If you're just having an hour on Sunday. Hold on. I'm back. I want to back 00:20:47.540 --> 00:20:53.440 up. I want to back up. Jake, you're, you're 28, 27. I've had this conversation with you. I'm sorry. 00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:59.140 Yeah. Yeah. Something like that. I don't remember. You're, you're telling me, uh, and, and, and let me 00:20:59.140 --> 00:21:02.960 just play devil's advocate here. Cause, cause somebody out there is saying it right now. You're 00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:07.100 telling me that you think that we should be physical church should be meeting more online 00:21:07.100 --> 00:21:11.600 because that way they're going to grow closer together. If they're meeting more online, instead 00:21:11.600 --> 00:21:18.280 of just meeting physically unpack that logic for you. In my brain, uh, we all meet online. Of course, 00:21:18.280 --> 00:21:21.800 we're going to meet online. It's, it's the complete opposite where it's like, it's just weird that we 00:21:21.800 --> 00:21:26.380 meet, you know, in person every week. I don't meet all my friends on person every week. I've 00:21:26.380 --> 00:21:29.560 moved all over the United States and there's no way that I would be able to meet with my 00:21:29.560 --> 00:21:34.880 friends. Most of my friends that I meet with regularly, I've never lived within three States 00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:39.840 of them. I mean, uh, we just met online and we've been hanging out online and then, you know, 00:21:40.340 --> 00:21:45.420 we went to Japan together. You know, I don't know how many, I, it's almost like, like, and 00:21:45.420 --> 00:21:48.540 it wasn't that weird. I met them for the first time and I was like, Oh, here you go. 00:21:48.540 --> 00:21:52.840 Which like DJ, it's like, Oh, I'm meeting your, your physical avatar. That's cool. I'd like, 00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:58.060 you know, we usually just chat online and it's great to actually meet you in person. And, um, 00:21:58.060 --> 00:22:01.880 and people are like, wasn't I just, didn't I just transform your relationship with them? And like, 00:22:01.960 --> 00:22:06.660 no, I mean, not really. It was cool that I got to hang out with them in Japan, but, um, 00:22:06.660 --> 00:22:13.520 what really transformed our relationship was, uh, years of hanging out, uh, in a discord call, 00:22:13.520 --> 00:22:18.300 which is for the don't know. It's basically like what we're doing right now in a zoom meeting, 00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:24.420 just not always with video, sometimes just with chat and, um, and, and getting to unpack kind of 00:22:24.420 --> 00:22:30.420 the things that get that make them tick and the way that they think and, uh, like hanging out with 00:22:30.420 --> 00:22:35.860 them. Just, just, I don't know, like just hanging out and it doesn't have to be in person, but I'm 00:22:35.860 --> 00:22:42.640 actually getting to know them better. Um, and from that there, when I meet them in person, 00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:50.420 it's like, I, we just pick off where we left off last when we were chatting online and our 00:22:50.420 --> 00:22:54.320 relationship is, I know them way better. Like when we, when they order something, I could have 00:22:54.320 --> 00:22:57.140 probably ordered for them. You know, I don't know how many people in your church you can order 00:22:57.140 --> 00:23:01.540 their meal for, but I already know what they like and what they don't like. And they, they're, 00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:05.080 they're actively looking for a place that's vegetarian for me because they know that's what I, 00:23:05.080 --> 00:23:08.900 you know, it's just these thoughts. Like I see something and I go, Oh, you're going to love this 00:23:08.900 --> 00:23:13.560 and I'm going to buy this for you. And, and, and it's just something, it's just different. I don't 00:23:13.560 --> 00:23:19.660 know. That's you. How can you get that if you only have an hour on Sunday? And I hate having to 00:23:19.660 --> 00:23:24.740 use that so often, but it's just that it's just the logic is like, let's just go to, we're going 00:23:24.740 --> 00:23:29.800 to go to church where we do our sermon. And then you think that somehow, first of all, they don't 00:23:29.800 --> 00:23:34.240 even know you. They know the Bible, which is amazing. They should absolutely know the Bible, 00:23:34.300 --> 00:23:38.060 but that's the meeting in the court temples. There's, you're completely throwing out that 00:23:38.060 --> 00:23:42.980 they met in their homes daily. You know, if you're not eating meals with them, then how 00:23:42.980 --> 00:23:46.640 are you getting to know them? They don't know you. They just know the Bible, which is not 00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:51.000 bad. They need to know the Bible, but they also need to know you because you're the one 00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:55.340 that's going to have to tell them, Hey, this is what the Bible says. And if you want to do 00:23:55.340 --> 00:24:00.780 discipline correctly, you have to do discipleship correctly. And if you're not doing discipleship 00:24:00.780 --> 00:24:04.980 correctly, then you're, you know, you have no relationship with them. And if you have no 00:24:04.980 --> 00:24:09.180 relationship with them, then you have no right to tell them anything because all you're telling 00:24:09.180 --> 00:24:13.500 them is what's already been written in the Bible, which is absolutely fine. They need to follow 00:24:13.500 --> 00:24:16.540 that, but they're not going to hear it from the Bible. They, or else they would have already done 00:24:16.540 --> 00:24:21.000 it. They need to hear it from you. And that's why you have to disciple. It's why the Bible says very 00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:26.900 clearly go and make disciples and teach them, right? Teach them to follow all that I've commanded you. 00:24:27.380 --> 00:24:30.940 How are you going to teach them to follow all that they've commanded you if you don't have a 00:24:30.940 --> 00:24:35.820 relationship with them? It's, I, it, then we might as, you know what, we can all just quit. We can all, 00:24:35.920 --> 00:24:40.700 none of, we don't need, we don't need sermons. We just have YouTube and it'll just literally be the 00:24:40.700 --> 00:24:44.840 Bible project. And it'll just be there telling you, you know, here's what the Bible says. And we, 00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:49.860 we, none of us need to exist because we're just, you know, another voice that's spitting what the 00:24:49.860 --> 00:24:55.220 Bible says. Like they don't need that. They need, they need a pastor who actually cares about them. 00:24:55.280 --> 00:24:59.360 They need somebody that's going to be there for them when they get sick. That's going to actually 00:24:59.360 --> 00:25:05.860 go to their house. And that's just not going to happen. You know, it's, it's all the points that 00:25:05.860 --> 00:25:09.860 they make that they say, yeah, you need somebody that, how is online going to work if somebody can't 00:25:09.860 --> 00:25:15.460 go to your, you know, your, your hospital when you're sick. And it's like, yeah, somebody needs to 00:25:15.460 --> 00:25:19.520 do that. We, you have to have that, but that's the same problem that we have in a local 00:25:19.520 --> 00:25:23.640 church as we have in an online church. So if we're not doing, if we're not both looking at each other 00:25:23.640 --> 00:25:27.620 and saying, Hey, like these people are doing community really, really well, but maybe they're 00:25:27.620 --> 00:25:32.400 not having the Bible as, you know, like they're, they're not doing discipline well. Well, you're 00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:36.400 not doing relationship well. And so you really need to think about how do you do your relationship 00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:42.260 better? We all need to learn from each other, but it's not going to happen unless it's with the 00:25:42.260 --> 00:25:45.180 view of discipleship, which all of us are not doing very well. 00:25:45.520 --> 00:25:49.500 Yeah. One thought, one thought I had off, uh, what Jay was saying was, um, you know, 00:25:49.540 --> 00:25:54.120 some of my leaders, not even just people in the church, many of my leaders, I never met 00:25:54.120 --> 00:25:58.940 physically for like a year or two. Um, after we first met in the digital sphere and they're 00:25:58.940 --> 00:26:04.440 leaders, they're active, they're, um, part of the church. And so it's when you meet them, 00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:07.860 it's just a moment of, Oh, here's what you look like. Or, you know, maybe we've seen their 00:26:07.860 --> 00:26:11.800 picture in social medias and, Oh, this is how tall is how short you're whatever. And within 00:26:11.800 --> 00:26:15.480 seconds, you're just picking up where you left off. You know, you were, we're old buddies, 00:26:15.580 --> 00:26:21.940 we're old friends. Um, and so I think that's something that's significant. And I think when 00:26:21.940 --> 00:26:26.560 you look back at scripture and you see like in the book of Acts, it was the day to day meeting, 00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:31.820 breaking of bread and prayers. And, and so that was in that tight local city town construct. 00:26:31.820 --> 00:26:36.360 And so as time has gone by in this modern society, we're stretched out transportation and all 00:26:36.360 --> 00:26:41.960 that. And so in this context, in this construct, it makes sense to meet once on a Sunday, maybe 00:26:41.960 --> 00:26:48.440 once on a small group, but the glue to replicate that house, that daily experience can be the 00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:53.920 digital sphere. That social media discord is fantastic. Uh, virtual reality, man, that's 00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:59.560 what makes, that's like the glue of it all, I think. And to not use that or to dismiss that, 00:26:59.560 --> 00:27:06.320 I think is to remove the glue to remove the mirroring, um, that, uh, you know, new Testament 00:27:06.320 --> 00:27:11.360 church experience of day to day, uh, just saying hello. I mean, it doesn't have to be this like 10 00:27:11.360 --> 00:27:17.520 hour a day thing, but man, five minutes chatting on discord, you know, man, you're just connecting. 00:27:17.520 --> 00:27:23.540 You're just, um, it's just so powerful. So, um, I think the day to day of that early church 00:27:23.540 --> 00:27:28.840 experience can be fulfilled through digital tools. I absolutely agree. That was awesome. 00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:34.880 Preach it, Jay. I'm telling you, that was just great. I'm thinking about in church, if we were, 00:27:35.040 --> 00:27:40.060 you know, if people come to your church and the average church is 50 to 75 now, and you were to 00:27:40.060 --> 00:27:46.440 actually, um, physically connect with that person, each person that walked through those doors, that's 00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:53.140 what we do. Uh, we're able to do on Facebook and we have a team of people that basically anybody who 00:27:53.140 --> 00:27:59.260 comes, um, through the doors, we, we connect with them on messenger. And so this has been the best 00:27:59.260 --> 00:28:05.520 way. So we have messenger mentors is what we call it. And so they're one-on-one, um, connecting with 00:28:05.520 --> 00:28:09.720 people, sending them a message. How can we pray for you? How can we get you connected? What are you 00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:17.400 interested in? Uh, and, and it's incredibly powerful. And so the example I can tell just from 00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:21.680 in the middle of the night, last night in one of our messenger groups, we try to keep them, you know, 00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:29.300 10 to 20 people, um, to make, you know, the church smaller than, and it's a daily, it's that daily 00:28:29.300 --> 00:28:33.700 getting, um, God's word. We're talking, we're going through the new Testament a year. So we post 00:28:33.700 --> 00:28:40.320 from that. Um, but just to wake up and see, because there's people from all over the world, 00:28:40.780 --> 00:28:47.760 uh, the body of Christ taking care of each other. So we have someone, um, I'll call him Joey. Um, 00:28:48.660 --> 00:28:58.800 he has not been sleeping at night. And so I am asleep while he is messaging this group and people from all 00:28:58.800 --> 00:29:05.380 around the world that are in his group in Africa, in Mexico are, are messaging back, you know, we're 00:29:05.380 --> 00:29:11.280 praying for you. We've got you. And he is so desperate. I mean, this isn't just a, an not 00:29:11.280 --> 00:29:16.720 sleeping problem. This is a, I think I'm going to take drugs to sleep. I think I don't trust God 00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:21.900 because I don't hear him answering my prayers. I, you know, where is he? I've been praying for weeks 00:29:21.900 --> 00:29:28.480 and I can't sleep. And, and so to have other people, um, besides me in the group that are 00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:33.100 ministering to him, that he's built relationship with them where he could be honest. He could say, 00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:38.520 I think I'm going back to the way of drugs that I was at before I came to pursuit, um, that they 00:29:38.520 --> 00:29:43.640 could be there. And then we could speak into that. That's if someone just goes to church on Sunday, 00:29:43.740 --> 00:29:50.620 who are they talking to? And so that's the power of what we have, um, to be able to press in 00:29:50.620 --> 00:29:56.460 to that. We have to have relationship first for them to trust us, that we can tell them the Bible 00:29:56.460 --> 00:30:04.300 is true and God wants your life to be whole. That's why we have these, um, the discipline or the, 00:30:04.540 --> 00:30:10.700 you know, as you might say, but it's all about record, um, reconciliation, you know, to relationship 00:30:10.700 --> 00:30:18.060 with God and other people. And so it's really a privilege to be called to digital ministry. And I do 00:30:18.060 --> 00:30:24.440 agree that churches that are in person should be using it, um, daily. It's awesome. So thanks guys. 00:30:24.900 --> 00:30:32.680 That's awesome. I was having a conversation, um, recently where, um, I was talking about this idea 00:30:32.680 --> 00:30:37.720 of, of being relational, building relationships and sure. And this, this, this part of the conversation 00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:43.180 goes digital as, as well as the church on lines and churches that are going digital. Uh, the, the person 00:30:43.180 --> 00:30:47.740 says to me, Jeff, what kind of relationships can you really have with the person? All they are is a red 00:30:47.740 --> 00:30:53.600 number on a screen. And it was this illusion of, Hey, you know, they're just, they're just a stat 00:30:53.600 --> 00:31:00.040 in church online platform, or it's a, it's a plus one on, on a, on a Facebook feed. But Angela, 00:31:00.040 --> 00:31:05.240 a lot of the stuff that I hear you talking about is, I mean, one-on-one discipleship, uh, multiple 00:31:05.240 --> 00:31:11.700 continents, uh, you know, this, this, uh, messenger mentors, which I'm going to reference that. I love 00:31:11.700 --> 00:31:17.240 that idea. Uh, the, the power of that's very cool. It there, there's talk to me a little bit 00:31:17.240 --> 00:31:22.480 about that. We're hearing little bits of it, but the, the practicalness of these relationships, 00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:29.240 how, how they're developed, how you're getting the volunteer leaders. All of you are very strong 00:31:29.240 --> 00:31:34.440 in your churches, your digital churches, utilizing these volunteers to do this. Like, talk to me 00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:39.540 about some of these relationships. Tell me some more of these stories where these are not just 00:31:39.540 --> 00:31:45.520 plus ones that are showing up in a web browser, where these are actually people who have names 00:31:45.520 --> 00:31:50.220 that are, that are involved within, within your church. Uh, DJ, why don't you go first? 00:31:50.580 --> 00:31:54.700 Before I talk about the practice, I just, let me just touch on like, when someone says, 00:31:55.240 --> 00:31:59.940 can you have relationships, can you do discipleship? I feel like maybe they don't know what the tools 00:31:59.940 --> 00:32:04.140 that are out there. There is a zillion things that you could pick from. You know, we're talking 00:32:04.140 --> 00:32:10.220 about Facebook, Discord, Marco Polo, Telegram, you know, there's, there's like a zillion video 00:32:10.220 --> 00:32:15.920 chats, you know, chat, you know, apps, voice chat, you just name it. You just go on the app store 00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:21.600 and there's so many ways to connect. Um, and so I think for people to kind of get into it and try it, 00:32:21.600 --> 00:32:24.660 especially if you're doubting, I don't know if I can do this, try it out, you know, 00:32:24.660 --> 00:32:29.540 create a little experimental life group or a small group and see what it's like. I think 00:32:29.540 --> 00:32:34.860 you'll be pleasantly surprised, like, especially if you, you pick the right tool. Um, and even if 00:32:34.860 --> 00:32:38.660 you, uh, just experiment for a little bit, I think it's just going to just show breakthrough 00:32:38.660 --> 00:32:44.080 and you're going to say you're closer, uh, than you were before. And, um, I think I was talking, 00:32:44.220 --> 00:32:49.600 let's see, I think it was a, from Dallas, uh, theological seminary. Um, one guy there who's 00:32:49.600 --> 00:32:56.140 kind of dabbling in VR was trying to convince, um, some of his, uh, seminary teachers to get into, 00:32:56.140 --> 00:33:00.780 like, digital teaching, trying to encourage that. A lot of said, no, this has to be done online. 00:33:00.980 --> 00:33:05.880 And then, well, COVID happened. And so they was, they were forced to. And one of the professors 00:33:05.880 --> 00:33:10.460 is like, I'm closer to my students I've ever been. I feel like I know them more than in the, 00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:17.860 in the physical class. And for us, we're like, yes, you know, um, yes, we know. And so I think 00:33:17.860 --> 00:33:22.600 if we could just like package that little story up and spread that around to those who are really 00:33:22.600 --> 00:33:28.580 doubtful about, um, you know, digital discipleship experience, you know, reconciliation, all of this 00:33:28.580 --> 00:33:33.080 stuff. Um, I think they would be just a surprise, but yeah, so I'm just thinking of the tools and 00:33:33.080 --> 00:33:38.880 technology to dive into, but, um, from a practical way, you know, we're not reinventing the wheel. 00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:45.660 It still goes back to that conversations, uh, face-to-face hellos and how are yous and let's 00:33:45.660 --> 00:33:51.260 journey together and life is tough. And, um, so it's nothing that like, I think at VR church, 00:33:51.260 --> 00:33:56.060 we're not doing anything different than what's been done for a millennia, just relationships 00:33:56.060 --> 00:34:01.560 and connections and discipleship. So, uh, there isn't like a, what's the, there's not like a secret 00:34:01.560 --> 00:34:08.000 sauce, you know, it's just, um, old fashioned to one degree in a new form. So you mix those two 00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:12.460 and you have what we're doing. Anyone else have a good story, a practical application? 00:34:12.880 --> 00:34:18.800 I would, um, piggyback on Jade, uh, when he was talking about going to Japan with people he met 00:34:18.800 --> 00:34:25.620 online and how they knew each other. And I didn't know, I think I only knew two of my team member 00:34:25.620 --> 00:34:30.380 and the first team members in the first two years, I'd only known and met them, maybe actually three. 00:34:30.780 --> 00:34:36.720 And, and so the first in-person that we had a year ago in October, it was as if a big family 00:34:36.720 --> 00:34:42.100 was coming together and we had always known each other and they had been in my house. They had, 00:34:42.240 --> 00:34:49.560 you know, via video. Uh, but I think I always, um, tell pastors that if, if they want to check it 00:34:49.560 --> 00:34:54.760 out, they can come and just be part of what we do at Pursuit. I have yet to have anybody take me up on 00:34:54.760 --> 00:35:02.580 that. But, but I think it does, when you're in it, you can, um, you can really explore all the things 00:35:02.580 --> 00:35:09.200 like DJ was saying. We use Marco Polo a lot. I mean, there's, um, there's so such incredible 00:35:09.200 --> 00:35:14.020 opportunity to build relationships with people and they just, everybody, including me, I mean, 00:35:14.100 --> 00:35:21.440 has the human need to be seen, to be recognized. And, um, social media, digital spaces have given us 00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:27.640 that place to see people like God sees them and to pull out the best in them and to love them right 00:35:27.640 --> 00:35:32.940 where they're at, not how they should be. And, uh, that is really the draw for people, at least at 00:35:32.940 --> 00:35:38.780 our church. And I know from the stories I've heard, um, so, and so many stories of people that couldn't 00:35:38.780 --> 00:35:44.720 get connected to a local church or, or left church because they were hurt or, um, have chronic illness. 00:35:44.720 --> 00:35:49.780 There's lots of, lots of reasons people don't go to church anymore. And this is a way to help them 00:35:49.780 --> 00:35:56.440 be seen by God, be seen by us and be pulled in, you know, cause they have such a great purpose 00:35:56.440 --> 00:36:02.660 and God has a plan for them. So that's been, it's been, it's blowing my mind. Um, again, 00:36:02.660 --> 00:36:08.020 I just feel so privileged to be part of this group and, um, thank you for hosting. 00:36:08.260 --> 00:36:13.480 That's awesome. I, yeah, I question just even to, to build on that, Angela, I'm curious because 00:36:13.480 --> 00:36:19.060 we even mentioned earlier, this idea of, um, you know, reconciliation, and I even want to talk 00:36:19.060 --> 00:36:25.740 about how that works in, in, in the digital space and what that, what that restoration process 00:36:25.740 --> 00:36:33.380 looks like. But even before we get there, I'm curious, rough percentages, like describe what you 00:36:33.380 --> 00:36:40.220 guys are seeing in a digital church in context of, uh, de-churched, unchurched, you know, so maybe 00:36:40.220 --> 00:36:47.740 people that are, are burned and turned off of, of the typical model of a physical church using it 00:36:47.740 --> 00:36:53.260 that way. Uh, maybe unchurched, not at all, uh, comfortable, not versed in it at all. Maybe the 00:36:53.260 --> 00:36:58.680 digital expression of church is really the first time they've, they've been to church. Where are you 00:36:58.680 --> 00:37:05.660 at DJ? Oh man, that's, um, that's like most of who come to VR churches, those who maybe I don't 00:37:05.660 --> 00:37:11.260 identify with faith. I, I'm surprised, well, maybe not surprised, but it's fascinating to hear someone 00:37:11.260 --> 00:37:16.220 say, I've never been to church before. I hear that several times a month and it's amazing. It's 00:37:16.220 --> 00:37:21.100 beautiful. I love that hearing that moment. They're in church, never been to a church before. So it's 00:37:21.100 --> 00:37:25.140 not like a de-churched thing where they used to go as a kid and now they don't. They've never stepped, 00:37:25.140 --> 00:37:30.520 put in a church. It's wild. And so, um, I think it back to when VR church was first planted. 00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:35.660 I think for a good two to three months, there was no other Christians. It was just, 00:37:35.720 --> 00:37:40.280 you know, a room full of like, you know, atheists, agnostics, you know, people just kind of seeking 00:37:40.280 --> 00:37:48.100 spiritually. And I think that shaped how we, how I preach and how we teach, but it also is indicative 00:37:48.100 --> 00:37:52.960 of what's happening today. I, I mean, you walk into our, to virtual reality church and there's no doubt, 00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:58.040 you know, people that are atheists and agnostic are walking around hanging out and people ask me 00:37:58.040 --> 00:38:01.180 all the time. Well, maybe not all the time, but they just ask me, you know, why is an atheist come 00:38:01.180 --> 00:38:06.240 to VR church? And I think people are still just curious about spirituality. They're curious about 00:38:06.240 --> 00:38:10.540 faith. Um, and they just want to have a conversation about it. And that'd be tough to do, like walk up to 00:38:10.540 --> 00:38:14.600 a church and, you know, start drumming up conversation about atheism and evolution or, you know, 00:38:14.700 --> 00:38:19.780 creationism, whatever. And, uh, they're able to do that in these digital environments. And, um, 00:38:19.780 --> 00:38:24.420 if you've cultivated an inclusive attitude, uh, towards these conversations and not resistant, 00:38:24.420 --> 00:38:30.400 like, uh-oh, um, then you, it really provides opportunity for breakthrough for people. You 00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:35.500 realize, oh, you know, we can have these conversations and it's not threatening and it's, it's very 00:38:35.500 --> 00:38:41.740 beautiful. So anyways, to, to what you're saying, man, it's, it's all I see is what you've described 00:38:41.740 --> 00:38:45.860 people who are unchurched, de-churched, and have never been to church before. And it, that is 00:38:45.860 --> 00:38:52.820 the norm, uh, not the exception. Yeah. I mean, same. I, it's, most of the people that I speak 00:38:52.820 --> 00:38:59.580 to, um, they really aren't turned off to learning about the Bible and they're not even turned off 00:38:59.580 --> 00:39:07.560 to the idea of Jesus. They, they actually like the idea of that somebody loves them, a God loves 00:39:07.560 --> 00:39:15.480 them and wants to see them reconciled. Uh, that's not like, I don't, I, it's kind of mind blowing 00:39:15.480 --> 00:39:20.120 that we're like, why would they ever, why would they not? I mean, like, that's a, that's completely 00:39:20.120 --> 00:39:24.740 our own narrative that we think that for some reason that they would not want that. Uh, they 00:39:24.740 --> 00:39:30.240 do what they don't want is they don't want church culture. Like they, the ones that have grown up in 00:39:30.240 --> 00:39:35.020 church and that, and then left, they left for a reason. Like, and most of the time it's not because 00:39:35.020 --> 00:39:41.020 Jesus loves them and wants, you know, to see them reconciled. And most of the time, it's not even that 00:39:41.020 --> 00:39:46.000 the Bible says there's a list of things that you should or shouldn't do. Uh, if you ask them, most of 00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:51.800 the time it's like, well, I tried church and it was really judgmental. Like, okay. You know, I tried 00:39:51.800 --> 00:39:58.240 church and, um, I just fell, I got, I fell into the cracks, you know, I, I tried church, but it was 00:39:58.240 --> 00:40:02.400 like, what was the point? I, it was just telling me what the Bible said. So I still believe what the 00:40:02.400 --> 00:40:07.560 Bible says, but I just don't go to church anymore. I mean, like I hear these all the time. This is the 00:40:07.560 --> 00:40:12.340 same thing over and over again. And, um, you know, I actually really like whenever I can talk to 00:40:12.340 --> 00:40:17.280 somebody who hasn't been to church because then there's not this barrier that I have to get past at the 00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:23.400 beginning of it, you know? Uh, so I, instead I can just be like, here's what the Bible says. Like, 00:40:23.420 --> 00:40:30.620 let's talk about that and let's have a relationship and let's move further into that. Um, so yeah, like, 00:40:31.040 --> 00:40:36.860 uh, yeah, I, I, I even where, where I'm at now, I'm fine. If people just want to say like, oh, well, 00:40:36.860 --> 00:40:40.720 you know what you're doing is, um, is missionary work. That's fine. Whatever. If you don't want to 00:40:40.720 --> 00:40:46.040 call a church, I don't even care anymore. But what, yeah, I, I spent a lot of my time live streaming now, 00:40:46.040 --> 00:40:49.220 right now. That's what I'm doing, right? I quit my job working at a church so that I could 00:40:49.220 --> 00:40:55.120 really take this very seriously. And so I've been live streaming like 17 hours a day, something like 00:40:55.120 --> 00:41:00.380 that. Um, you know, every other day, sometimes every day, the last three days, it's been at least 17 00:41:00.380 --> 00:41:04.800 hours. Uh, and so I spent a lot of time essentially playing video games and talking to a camera. It's 00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:09.100 kind of what we're doing right now, but imagine how much time I can have. You know, you can say it's a 00:41:09.100 --> 00:41:12.880 number, but I see their names. I see when they're chatting, you know, that's who I'm talking to. 00:41:13.460 --> 00:41:19.200 And if I'm, if I'm a lot, if I'm live for 17 hours, this person is going to see every way that I 00:41:19.200 --> 00:41:23.980 interact. When I'm in a game, they're going to see the way that I interact with people, you know, and 00:41:23.980 --> 00:41:28.340 they're going to see that it's something different. So first and foremost, I got to cultivate that my 00:41:28.340 --> 00:41:35.280 life has to reflect God's. If, if my life is not becoming more and more like Jesus, then I am not going 00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:38.660 to have anything to share with anybody because they're going to, they're going to look at my 00:41:38.660 --> 00:41:43.020 life and go, well, you look like everybody else. And they're going to continue on. But I regularly 00:41:43.020 --> 00:41:47.040 get people in the game that are like, wow, like I've never met somebody so nice. I don't know why 00:41:47.040 --> 00:41:52.180 you're so nice. Right? Like, and, and, and I have to like, that's not something that just happens. 00:41:52.380 --> 00:41:58.920 You have to actively say, well, this is how Jesus is. This is how I see in the Bible I'm supposed to be. 00:41:59.020 --> 00:42:03.580 So that's how I'm going to be. Like, I'm going to let it continue to transform my mind. You're like, 00:42:03.620 --> 00:42:08.060 I'm going to, I'm going to let it actually affect the way that I act. And people are going to see 00:42:08.060 --> 00:42:13.260 that. And through the acting of how my life is seeing me regularly in front of a camera, the way 00:42:13.260 --> 00:42:17.900 that I respond to people, the way that I talk to people, then it's like, okay, now I'm, I'm going 00:42:17.900 --> 00:42:22.820 to, I'm going to listen to what you have to say. You know, I've seen it. You know, and that it, 00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:27.560 we see that time and time again in, in, in Jesus, where it's, they, they go and they 00:42:27.560 --> 00:42:31.700 question him and they're like, well, you know, we've seen, we've seen it. We've seen the way 00:42:31.700 --> 00:42:37.480 that he's acted. We see the things that he says. Um, and so through that, he gets a following 00:42:37.480 --> 00:42:43.040 that's more like people are, yeah, like, sure. Everything that he's doing is, you know, create, 00:42:43.100 --> 00:42:47.520 and then he'll say something after he's met with them for a while. And then they're like, 00:42:47.580 --> 00:42:51.500 whoa, Hey, that's too much. And then kind of, it's kind of like ebb and flow of the water. 00:42:51.500 --> 00:42:54.620 And I kind of feel like that when I, where I'm live streaming, I'm just chatting with people. 00:42:54.620 --> 00:42:57.780 People are way on top of it. They're feeling it. And then I'm like, all right, then I'm going to 00:42:57.780 --> 00:43:01.080 give you a little bit more, you know, like, this is a little bit, maybe too much for you. And people 00:43:01.080 --> 00:43:04.720 are kind of like, whoa, we just started talking about God. I'm really not ready for that. I just 00:43:04.720 --> 00:43:07.700 kind of, you know, wanted to hang out with a nice person. And they're like, Hey, well, you know, 00:43:07.740 --> 00:43:11.700 you don't get one without the other. Cause I wouldn't be a naturally nice person if it wasn't for 00:43:11.700 --> 00:43:15.780 God working in my life. And the, you know, I'd be selfish if it wasn't for, for this and so on. 00:43:16.180 --> 00:43:19.940 And some hear it and some don't, you know? And so when I think about this kind of 00:43:19.940 --> 00:43:24.620 relationship, Evan flow, you know, some people are like, yeah, amen, right up, right off the top, 00:43:24.680 --> 00:43:28.080 you know, because they're already in it and they already understand, but then other people don't. 00:43:28.080 --> 00:43:33.280 And like, if you don't have that tension, um, then you're probably doing the revolving door thing 00:43:33.280 --> 00:43:36.600 where you found a bunch of people that came from the church down the street and they just really 00:43:36.600 --> 00:43:40.680 like your worship better. And so, you know, that, I don't know how many times you've pulled your 00:43:40.680 --> 00:43:44.120 church, but you know, if you don't have people that are actually, you know, 00:43:44.520 --> 00:43:47.460 you know, I was just thinking, you know, I know, I know, you're not looking for like, you know, 00:43:47.460 --> 00:43:53.620 validation as a church, but just, let me just throw in my two cents as an observer. I've observed 00:43:53.620 --> 00:43:58.580 your discord that you've merged with the community with, with Twitch or vice versa, whatever that, 00:43:58.580 --> 00:44:04.880 that whole experience and what you've done there, um, is at a shepherding level that most, uh, 00:44:05.060 --> 00:44:09.140 pastors would not get to. And I'm not trying to put, you know, us versus them and I'm not trying to 00:44:09.140 --> 00:44:15.080 pit. But if we're going to say your thing is just a side little nothing, or, you know, it's cute what 00:44:15.080 --> 00:44:19.880 you're doing over there. No, it's significant. The shepherding of the pastoring that you're doing is 00:44:19.880 --> 00:44:24.920 more pastoring than most pastors do. And again, I'm not trying to start a, you know, confrontation, 00:44:25.300 --> 00:44:29.860 but, um, I think people need to see that, you know, when they like Jeff, when they question you, 00:44:29.920 --> 00:44:34.780 like, I don't know about this, you know, it's just a dot man experience love clan on, on Twitch, 00:44:34.780 --> 00:44:38.680 then on discord. And you see the shepherding, there's no doubt. There's a powerful 00:44:38.680 --> 00:44:44.160 ministry there. It's a church. It's like the gathering of believers and, and the word is 00:44:44.160 --> 00:44:49.820 being ministered. And so, um, it's just powerful. Um, and I think everyone should, should experience 00:44:49.820 --> 00:44:56.400 it before they, uh, dismiss it as, as insignificant. Yeah. And you're seeing fruit from that DJ. 00:44:56.780 --> 00:45:01.280 Exactly. Right. And so one of the reasons why I love having conversations with, with planners 00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:05.960 like, like you three, because we're, we're seeing the fruit of the labor come in through these 00:45:05.960 --> 00:45:11.200 relationships and, and it's, and it's growing and it's multiplying and, and, uh, you know, 00:45:11.200 --> 00:45:16.340 the challenge of Jade and, and we, you and I, we've had this conversation already. It's, it's, 00:45:16.580 --> 00:45:22.940 we need more Jates. We need more DJs. We, we need more Angela's out there doing this. And so I'm, 00:45:22.940 --> 00:45:29.020 I'm curious. I don't want to ask the question, like you, the mentality of, of Jade, which you said 00:45:29.020 --> 00:45:34.400 earlier, Hey, like, um, I'm, I'm playing video games. I'm a nice guy. Um, but the nice guys 00:45:34.400 --> 00:45:38.420 because of Jesus and I'm going to share, and I'm going to talk about that. And so like, I'm going 00:45:38.420 --> 00:45:44.860 to be, you know, digital missionary, whatever, whatever the language is I'm, I'm using my circle 00:45:44.860 --> 00:45:50.940 of influence, um, digitally to connect people to Christ. And through that getting engaged in, 00:45:51.060 --> 00:45:57.460 in this idea of a digital only church, my question would be is how easy, how difficult, 00:45:57.460 --> 00:46:07.040 what are the challenges to kind of reproduce that? Like carbon copy, Jates, DJs, Angela's, 00:46:07.040 --> 00:46:12.000 as you're working with your leadership teams, a lot of these people, you don't know in physical 00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:16.340 space. You've not, Angela, I think you made the mention earlier. It was a year or so before you 00:46:16.340 --> 00:46:22.220 met a lot of the people that, that you've been working with. Um, so like, are there inerrant 00:46:22.220 --> 00:46:29.180 challenges in growing and discipling people to that level that they're actually able to 00:46:29.180 --> 00:46:31.680 lead at the level that, that you yourself are leading? 00:46:31.800 --> 00:46:36.220 I can speak to that. And I think everyone would probably say the same thing as it goes back 00:46:36.220 --> 00:46:43.260 to the relationship that we build every day that we are, um, digital space has a much more 00:46:43.260 --> 00:46:50.440 vulnerable approach as far as, uh, we are in each other's lives. There's, I remember the first time I 00:46:50.440 --> 00:46:59.420 met, um, one of our team members, she did, um, interpreting for the deaf community. And I met her, 00:46:59.420 --> 00:47:04.720 I was at a conference in Las Vegas and she happened to be in a, in a conference at Las Vegas. And so we 00:47:04.720 --> 00:47:08.840 met up and we're having coffee and like five minutes in the conversation. I was like, well, I don't really have 00:47:08.840 --> 00:47:17.220 anything else to say because you know, everything like we've been talking online up until we met in 00:47:17.220 --> 00:47:25.740 person. So I think actually you have a much better view into someone's spiritual life, into their 00:47:25.740 --> 00:47:31.840 relationship with Christ, um, into their, you know, everything that they're doing, then you do if 00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:38.260 someone's just coming to your church once or twice a week, um, in person, because you are building that 00:47:38.260 --> 00:47:46.880 daily relationship with them. And, and so I don't have any, any hesitation when putting people in 00:47:46.880 --> 00:47:52.780 place. I think that could be a whole nother, um, a whole nother podcast or conversation would be about 00:47:52.780 --> 00:47:59.500 keeping teams safe because we do a lot of work around that, um, keeping teams and the people they serve 00:47:59.500 --> 00:48:07.140 safe because that happens in the church as well. Um, but really it does have to do with that building, 00:48:07.140 --> 00:48:14.640 um, of relationship with leads to trust and vulnerability and authenticity. And, um, that 00:48:14.640 --> 00:48:21.220 way we can, um, definitely put people into leadership spots a lot quicker because they're growing faster. 00:48:21.220 --> 00:48:26.080 They're transforming faster because they're in the word they're in community every single day, 00:48:26.080 --> 00:48:30.400 not just a couple of times a month. Here, here's the thing. And this may bleed over into the physical 00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:35.740 space, people who are doing church, church online as well. And really the first place that I heard 00:48:35.740 --> 00:48:42.200 this was out of Jay Cranda, online pastor over at Saddleback, a friend here on the podcast. He says, 00:48:42.200 --> 00:48:47.500 people in, in, in physical space, maybe this is pre COVID. I don't know how COVID is really going to 00:48:47.500 --> 00:48:53.800 change this, but in physical space, uh, people would often connect to Christ before they would connect 00:48:53.800 --> 00:48:59.320 to community. Uh, but with church online services, Jay would, would say that they found that people, 00:48:59.320 --> 00:49:04.300 Saddleback, people were connecting to community before they were getting connected to, to Christ. 00:49:04.300 --> 00:49:08.820 Uh, and, and, and oftentimes when, when I had the conversations with, with online pastors, 00:49:08.820 --> 00:49:14.760 um, and digital pastors, it's, it's that common theme where people are looking for that community, 00:49:14.760 --> 00:49:22.740 that relationship piece, um, in, in the community space before they were really give the credibility 00:49:22.740 --> 00:49:28.540 for the conversation about Christ. I'm just curious, digital only churches, virtual reality, 00:49:28.700 --> 00:49:34.460 Facebook video games, you know, everything that you guys are doing. Um, would you agree to that 00:49:34.460 --> 00:49:39.480 community before Christ, uh, mentality with the people? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That's 00:49:39.480 --> 00:49:45.480 like, I don't, we haven't done official surveys or whatever, just by observation, like 90% of that 00:49:45.480 --> 00:49:50.960 is certainly just connecting with the community and just journeying along and, uh, people kicking the 00:49:50.960 --> 00:49:55.740 tires of this whole Christ thing. You know, what is this all about? And, and seeing if it's the real 00:49:55.740 --> 00:50:00.260 deal. Right. And so, uh, that is a, that's a powerful statement. I, I, I believe that's true 00:50:00.260 --> 00:50:06.860 for us. And we've seen that we've seen even just recently in atheists, um, uh, come to Christ within 00:50:06.860 --> 00:50:11.200 the past couple of weeks. And, but he's been with us for like six to eight months, um, just hanging 00:50:11.200 --> 00:50:16.980 around, even volunteering and, and being a part of the community. Um, and then, um, you know, he's 00:50:16.980 --> 00:50:20.240 always said, ah, I'm an atheist. I'll help out, but I'm an atheist. You know what I mean? I was like, 00:50:20.260 --> 00:50:24.180 yeah, that's cool, man. Just come hang out and do your thing, you know? And so, um, there was a 00:50:24.180 --> 00:50:27.960 couple of weeks ago where he sat down and he goes, I think this, this faith in Christ thing 00:50:27.960 --> 00:50:34.420 is real for me. Um, and so that, yeah, I don't know what else to say about that. Then a hundred 00:50:34.420 --> 00:50:36.280 percent in green. We've seen that a hundred percent. 00:50:36.640 --> 00:50:43.400 Yeah. And actually I think I, um, sorry. Yeah. I also like, I cultivate that. Like, so when 00:50:43.400 --> 00:50:49.480 I think about a, um, a local church, it makes sense that people would go there for Christ 00:50:49.480 --> 00:50:55.300 before they would go for a community, because if I'm looking for community and I'm an atheist, 00:50:55.300 --> 00:50:59.540 I mean, I, I go to a bar. I'm not like, oh man, I'm going to go find community. Let's go 00:50:59.540 --> 00:51:03.900 to church today. Like that's, it's not like, that's not the mental thought. And I, sometimes 00:51:03.900 --> 00:51:08.240 I think we just kind of like, like, why, why would they, why, why would they go to a church 00:51:08.240 --> 00:51:11.760 for community that you wouldn't like, if you were an atheist, you want to go to a church 00:51:11.760 --> 00:51:15.780 for community. You don't, you don't go, well, I'm really bored on a Wednesday. Maybe I'll 00:51:15.780 --> 00:51:19.840 go to the local mosque and like, uh, see how they're hanging out. You know, like you don't 00:51:19.840 --> 00:51:24.060 do that. And you, and why, because that's just not, it's weird and it, and it is weird. 00:51:24.180 --> 00:51:29.980 So I think that's the same thing with, for, for me is like, yeah. And those are the people 00:51:29.980 --> 00:51:33.280 that I'm not trying to reach. Like, I'm not trying to reach the already church because 00:51:33.280 --> 00:51:36.280 they already have a church. It's not like I'm trying to say, let's just pull people out 00:51:36.280 --> 00:51:39.940 of churches. I don't want revolving door. And now you're online and you were a local 00:51:39.940 --> 00:51:42.660 church. And like, those are the people I'm trying to reach. Like I'm trying to reach 00:51:42.660 --> 00:51:47.960 people who are looking for community because they don't have one, you know, and like, okay, 00:51:47.960 --> 00:51:53.760 let's, let's talk to those people. So that's, that's kind of actually why I think about, I'm 00:51:53.760 --> 00:51:57.400 okay with if people are like, let's, they don't want to call it a church, whatever. That actually 00:51:57.400 --> 00:52:04.640 helps my cause because, um, my goal is to reach people, um, not to build a church. Like, like, 00:52:04.640 --> 00:52:08.200 and if that happens and that we build a church and everybody looks at it and goes, wow, that's 00:52:08.200 --> 00:52:12.040 a church from the outside and people from the, from online are going, well, I'm just 00:52:12.040 --> 00:52:15.280 looking for a community. I'm fine. Then I'll call it a community. I don't call them small 00:52:15.280 --> 00:52:18.520 groups. I call them community groups because I'm like, yeah, it's a small community of people 00:52:18.520 --> 00:52:22.140 and you hang out. And if you say small group, they're like, I don't know what that is. You 00:52:22.140 --> 00:52:27.900 know? So a lot of it I think is, um, yes, it's, it's people that are looking for community, 00:52:27.900 --> 00:52:34.120 but you got to find ways to, to kind of how, how to, how do you connect with people first? 00:52:34.680 --> 00:52:38.120 Um, and then this is where that is. So for me, it's like, yeah, I'm playing video games, 00:52:38.260 --> 00:52:42.080 you know, that, that just happened to be the thing for me because I'm trying to find a group 00:52:42.080 --> 00:52:47.460 of people that are not already reached. Right. Um, and that happens, that is the same thing. 00:52:47.460 --> 00:52:51.700 It's like, well, yeah, let's go. Let's, this isn't working. Let's go to the Gentiles. 00:52:52.420 --> 00:52:56.180 You know? I mean, it's kind of a similar thing where I'm just, Hey, like, this is the group 00:52:56.180 --> 00:53:01.140 of people that needs it. And so that's the group of people that I'm going for. And just like 00:53:01.140 --> 00:53:05.440 Paul, I'm going to kind of tailor my message. And like, you know, when I go into the, uh, 00:53:05.440 --> 00:53:09.180 what is it? The eropagus, you know, like I'm going to, I'm going to change the way I say 00:53:09.180 --> 00:53:13.360 things. I'm going to be like, well, you know, I see you guys are very, um, spiritual, you 00:53:13.360 --> 00:53:18.900 know, you guys are very wisdom, you know, based, you guys have statues and you guys are obviously 00:53:18.900 --> 00:53:23.100 trying to figure this thing out. Um, but you have this one that's to the unknown God. So, 00:53:23.200 --> 00:53:26.580 Hey, I actually happen to know that God. Would you like me to tell you about him? You 00:53:26.580 --> 00:53:32.940 know, and he's, that's, he would never give that speech to, um, the apostles, you know, 00:53:32.960 --> 00:53:36.200 why? Because it's just, it's not, it's not the way that you communicate with them. And 00:53:36.200 --> 00:53:40.900 so it's going to look different. Like the way that I communicate with people online in an 00:53:40.900 --> 00:53:45.320 online space for gamers that I know are non-Christians, it's going to look different, but it's the same 00:53:45.320 --> 00:53:49.060 message. It's not like I'm going to change the message, but I'm going to give them stuff. Um, 00:53:49.060 --> 00:53:53.280 that's for the stage that they're at, you know, uh, and I, how am I going to know the 00:53:53.280 --> 00:53:57.120 stage that they're at if I don't have a relationship, you know? And so that's, it all 00:53:57.120 --> 00:53:59.900 comes full circle, but that that's where it is for me. 00:54:00.080 --> 00:54:04.300 I think one, one thought I think is interesting is when you think of unreached people groups, 00:54:04.300 --> 00:54:10.640 oftentimes we, um, define that through geography, like, you know, Africa, China. Um, and by the 00:54:10.640 --> 00:54:16.740 way, that's still true, but in this new digital era, um, there is the most, the largest unreached 00:54:16.740 --> 00:54:22.440 people group is the gaming community. And I think that if the church kind of framed it from that 00:54:22.440 --> 00:54:27.860 perspective, it was like, like as an evangelical America, we wouldn't, we wouldn't be okay with 00:54:27.860 --> 00:54:31.340 unreached people groups, you know, massive. We would do something about it, you know, funding 00:54:31.340 --> 00:54:35.780 missionaries. We would kind of do that. And if we start to think of unreached people groups 00:54:35.780 --> 00:54:39.600 from the perspective of the digital sphere, virtual reality, we realized, man, there's 00:54:39.600 --> 00:54:45.280 whole continents, so to speak, that are not being reached and it's just not on our radar. So we 00:54:45.280 --> 00:54:50.840 needed to think of it in that way. Um, and, um, you know, what Jade's doing is powerful. What 00:54:50.840 --> 00:54:55.480 Angela's doing is, is, is, is so compelling and it's very powerful. And just one quick 00:54:55.480 --> 00:54:59.060 story. I don't know. I just wanted to, this is just happening in real time. And I think 00:54:59.060 --> 00:55:03.820 it's interesting. So, um, you know, I'm playing this video game called rust and, you know, it's 00:55:03.820 --> 00:55:08.060 like a base builder type of thing. And, um, you know, a lot of killing and running around 00:55:08.060 --> 00:55:12.320 and trying to get loot and, you know, making friends. And so this building a base, this guy 00:55:12.320 --> 00:55:16.180 came up to me and he says, Hey, I need an ally. So we've just been hunkering down the 00:55:16.180 --> 00:55:21.500 past and Saturday yesterday. He goes, Hey, are you, uh, you do VR? Cause he would see 00:55:21.500 --> 00:55:25.480 my profile picture. I was like, yeah. He goes, uh, have you been to VR chat? I was 00:55:25.480 --> 00:55:30.660 like, yes. As a matter of fact, I have a church in VR chat. And so I invited him to church and 00:55:30.660 --> 00:55:35.940 I think he's going to come. And, um, it's just amazing to see like how these things are 00:55:35.940 --> 00:55:41.980 connected. And, um, it's just, I don't know, I guess I get stuck on when people are really 00:55:41.980 --> 00:55:46.200 resistant to the idea of a video game church and Facebook and virtual reality when there's 00:55:46.200 --> 00:55:52.880 such compelling ministry going on. So, yeah, I love that idea of looking at digital community 00:55:52.880 --> 00:55:57.380 as unreached people groups. We've been using that language through Stadia a lot lately and 00:55:57.380 --> 00:56:03.300 writing blogs on it. Angela, I, my, my ears perked up when you said the thing about death 00:56:03.300 --> 00:56:08.220 and that, that your church is, is doing a thing about death, which is also the, the ASL, 00:56:08.220 --> 00:56:14.000 American sign language, one of the largest unreached people groups currently, uh, in America. And so 00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:18.700 the fact that through a digital church, you're able to connect those people to do it through 00:56:18.700 --> 00:56:23.800 that community, into that community, even though they're dispersed all across the country. Like 00:56:23.800 --> 00:56:30.800 I've, I've always wanted to see churches care more for, for that community because they're often 00:56:30.800 --> 00:56:36.300 just forgotten. And, and I think that's one of the things that, that are exciting to me is that 00:56:36.300 --> 00:56:42.380 we've got, we've got an opportunity to, through digital means to easily connect and reach into 00:56:42.380 --> 00:56:48.160 people, uh, that are often forgotten or, or discarded. And I've always said this, a digital 00:56:48.160 --> 00:56:52.980 only expression of church is going to reach a different type of person that's coming into the 00:56:52.980 --> 00:56:58.700 physical building. It's, it's not, at least in 2020, I don't believe this. I don't think a digital 00:56:58.700 --> 00:57:04.120 expression of church is going to replace a physical church. Now, physical churches may be drying up. 00:57:04.120 --> 00:57:08.360 And even just today at a conversation with a, with a church, she's like, yeah, I no longer have a 00:57:08.360 --> 00:57:12.680 building. Uh, can I, can I possibly do this digitally? Can you help? Like there's all sorts 00:57:12.680 --> 00:57:18.280 of people, all sorts of churches. Uh, Barna just said recently, 20% of churches are going to shut 00:57:18.280 --> 00:57:22.500 down over the next 18 months. So, you know, you're going to see different expressions of church 00:57:22.500 --> 00:57:30.180 kind of open up, but I love this passion, uh, through digital church to reach people that don't normally 00:57:30.180 --> 00:57:35.940 get reached through the typical normal, normal church methods. So this has been a great conversation. 00:57:35.940 --> 00:57:43.380 I, I, I love the fact that it all comes back to this relationship place. And even though perception is, 00:57:43.380 --> 00:57:50.580 is that the technology will not allow for the relationships to be built time and time again, 00:57:50.580 --> 00:57:54.100 when we have conversations with people who are utilizing the technology, 00:57:54.100 --> 00:58:01.620 we're seeing that relationships are the forefront of these digital, uh, expressions of, of, of church 00:58:01.620 --> 00:58:06.020 and missionaries and, and, and all this stuff that, that you guys are doing. So this has been, 00:58:06.020 --> 00:58:10.100 this has been a great conversation. We're going to, we're going to wrap up land, land the plane here. 00:58:10.100 --> 00:58:15.460 Um, you know, obviously all sorts of contact info. And if people want to get connected to your 00:58:15.460 --> 00:58:22.500 specific ministries and online, uh, through love clan, uh, through pursuit church live through VR 00:58:22.500 --> 00:58:27.860 church, we'll include all that in the show notes and, and things like that. But just to land the plane 00:58:27.860 --> 00:58:31.940 here, any closing thoughts, DJ, as we're wrapping up, what, what are you thinking? 00:58:31.940 --> 00:58:37.860 Um, just one, uh, thought I had was I had a friend a couple of years ago who said, DJ, 00:58:37.860 --> 00:58:42.660 I think in the next 10 years, you're going to see more digital church plants than you see physical 00:58:42.660 --> 00:58:46.100 church plants. And this was a couple of years ago. And I agreed with him. I totally thought, 00:58:46.100 --> 00:58:52.100 yeah, that's true. But I didn't know how that would happen. It just seemed implausible that that 00:58:52.100 --> 00:58:58.340 would catch on. And here in this COVID era, um, you know, we're at the brink of a church planning 00:58:58.340 --> 00:59:02.500 movement like we've never seen before. That's going to start in the digital sphere. It's really going to be 00:59:02.500 --> 00:59:07.460 empowering. And, um, I think it's just going to spread the gospel far and wide. 00:59:07.460 --> 00:59:12.180 And, um, I think we just need to get out, get out of the way, let people lead, 00:59:12.180 --> 00:59:15.700 let people start these things. And it's not that we don't have these conversations, 00:59:15.700 --> 00:59:20.980 theology, theology and ecclesiology, you know, that's great. But at the end of the day, man, let's, 00:59:20.980 --> 00:59:25.060 let's get moving forward with this digital vision, this virtual reality vision, 00:59:25.060 --> 00:59:26.660 and let's keep things moving. 00:59:27.220 --> 00:59:30.900 Awesome. Uh, Angela, as we're wrapping up in any closing thoughts on your side? 00:59:31.220 --> 00:59:37.060 Similar to DJ. Our model at First State Church Live is digital plus. We want people to be in person, 00:59:37.060 --> 00:59:41.780 but I, I think DJ is right, is that right now we have this incredible opportunity to do digital, 00:59:41.780 --> 00:59:47.540 digital first. And for the local church, there's a lot of power in that because when you're able to 00:59:47.540 --> 00:59:54.500 go back into in person, you will recognize that you have created this incredible relational bond, 00:59:55.780 --> 01:00:02.340 on a daily basis of discipleship. And so I think that's the emerging, um, digital model that I see 01:00:02.340 --> 01:00:09.220 coming is that people will be so excited to be together or to start an in-person group in person, 01:00:09.220 --> 01:00:12.740 wherever they're at, whether that's, you know, in China or Uganda, because you'll connect with all 01:00:12.740 --> 01:00:18.660 sorts of people, right? Dallas, Washington. Um, and so I think church will transform into something, 01:00:19.300 --> 01:00:25.860 um, powerful, more meaningful because God has a plan for his church. And, uh, I absolutely believe, 01:00:25.860 --> 01:00:31.460 like, we can be people that bring, uh, the kingdom of God into digital ministry. 01:00:31.460 --> 01:00:37.300 Why wouldn't we do that? Why wouldn't we do that? That's just powerful. Um, so I'll be cheering for 01:00:37.300 --> 01:00:41.140 anybody who's moving forward and just so happy to be part of the conversation. 01:00:41.140 --> 01:00:47.700 That's awesome. And you guys have been great. Um, uh, what path finders, uh, way pavers, 01:00:47.700 --> 01:00:53.780 whatever the language pioneers say that in this space. Love it. Uh, Jay, uh, you're, 01:00:53.780 --> 01:00:56.500 you're bobbing your head up and down. What, what are you thinking as we're wrapping up? 01:00:56.500 --> 01:01:01.220 Uh, I don't know. I think at this point, most of what needs to be said has already been said, 01:01:01.220 --> 01:01:07.780 but, um, just to remember that a lot of the things that whenever you're looking at online church, 01:01:07.780 --> 01:01:14.580 any criticism you give obviously needs to first be looked at local. Um, and the same old advice 01:01:14.580 --> 01:01:20.580 is true that, you know, look, let's look at solutions rather than just providing, um, problems. 01:01:20.580 --> 01:01:28.580 And a lot of the times what we want to do is just shout from the sidelines. Um, and that is, um, 01:01:28.580 --> 01:01:32.740 kind of ironically, you know, we're, we're kind of like, well, I want to discipline this church. 01:01:32.740 --> 01:01:37.220 That's not, you know, doing the way that I think that they should be doing. And the reality is that's, 01:01:37.220 --> 01:01:42.340 Paul does that. I mean, he, he does write letters to other churches and says, Hey, you guys, 01:01:42.340 --> 01:01:45.380 you know, um, you're doing this wrong and you need to get your act together. 01:01:45.380 --> 01:01:49.140 And he gives very specific things that they can do that. This is how they can change. 01:01:49.140 --> 01:01:54.900 Um, even though he doesn't know all the information about that. And so I, I do want to hear when I hear 01:01:54.900 --> 01:01:58.900 something from a local church and I've thought I've spent a lot of time. I spent years in a local 01:01:58.900 --> 01:02:02.740 church really thinking through like, okay, if we're going to do this in a digital space, 01:02:02.740 --> 01:02:07.060 what does that look like? What does it need to change? Um, how can it be better? How can it, 01:02:07.060 --> 01:02:12.820 you know, how can we affect, um, lives in a way that we wouldn't be able to do through the local. 01:02:12.820 --> 01:02:19.300 And so, um, yeah, I, it honestly, I'm going to, I'm, it's going to go both ways. Like we need to 01:02:19.300 --> 01:02:24.340 see things that we're not doing in a local church and we need to see things that we're doing in an 01:02:24.340 --> 01:02:30.020 online church that need to take notes from the local church. Um, but the reality is that we are all 01:02:30.020 --> 01:02:36.340 the church, like at the body of believers is the church, not this, you know, well, this is a group 01:02:36.340 --> 01:02:42.340 of people and this is a group of people like all of us together, collectively all have the same 01:02:43.380 --> 01:02:48.100 goal. We all have the thing that we want to see happen. Our people moving closer towards the 01:02:48.100 --> 01:02:52.260 relationship with Jesus and to further the relationship with Jesus so that they can continue 01:02:52.260 --> 01:02:58.020 to grow the kingdom. We all have that same goal. And that's, so it's not like one versus the other 01:02:58.020 --> 01:03:05.220 online versus, you know, local church or whatever. And if the online church is able to do some things 01:03:05.220 --> 01:03:08.580 better than the physical church and the physical church is able to do some things better than the 01:03:08.580 --> 01:03:13.220 online church, that doesn't mean one of us is doing something incorrect. That just means that we have 01:03:13.220 --> 01:03:18.340 different, you know, one is the hand and one's the feet and we have just different, um, expressions of 01:03:18.340 --> 01:03:23.860 how we're going to do this together. And the reality is that as long as Christ is the head of our church, 01:03:23.860 --> 01:03:27.700 then we're going to continue to move in the same direction. And that doesn't need to be at, 01:03:27.700 --> 01:03:33.620 you know, like this against each other. Um, it means that we can really, let's look at how we can 01:03:33.620 --> 01:03:40.260 effectively help each other do that better. Uh, and, and if the church is divided, then, you know, 01:03:40.260 --> 01:03:45.700 the house is divided and that's, that's not going to stand. That's not going to help. So let's continue 01:03:45.700 --> 01:03:52.100 to encourage each other and to move in a direction that sees even reconciliation from what we've seen 01:03:52.100 --> 01:03:56.180 in the past where people say, well, I feel very judged by the church. Okay. Well, that's something 01:03:56.180 --> 01:04:00.900 that we need to, we need to actually talk about. Let's, let's work through that. Um, so that we 01:04:00.900 --> 01:04:08.740 don't have those same mistakes happen when we go into online. Uh, so yeah, I, I, I just, I, I very much 01:04:08.740 --> 01:04:17.140 am as somebody that has worked at multiple churches and, um, is, I still attend a local church. I care 01:04:17.140 --> 01:04:21.780 about the local church and I also care about online church and I want to see that succeed too. I don't 01:04:21.780 --> 01:04:27.380 know. I just feel like, um, I don't understand the tension. Uh, it doesn't make sense to me, but I do 01:04:27.380 --> 01:04:32.740 want to speak to it because I know it's there. And so, you know, let's talk about it. But, um, I would just 01:04:32.740 --> 01:04:37.460 challenge anybody that has that kind of tension. Like why, why do we feel that if Christ is still 01:04:37.460 --> 01:04:42.420 the head of what we're doing? Um, and we're just going forward with what we feel called doing. Um, 01:04:42.420 --> 01:04:47.860 then let's, then let's kind of do like the church did there where we say, well, I mean, test it and 01:04:47.860 --> 01:04:52.820 see, you know, the, the Holy spirit is on these people. And so I, we can't deny what God's doing. 01:04:52.820 --> 01:04:58.180 And I've seen God work in the online church, so I can't deny that it's, that it's, that God is in it, 01:04:58.180 --> 01:05:03.700 you know? So yeah, just to, that's all I would say experience too. You would need, 01:05:03.700 --> 01:05:08.260 you have to experience it. You know, there's some things, um, just like that. They had their 01:05:08.260 --> 01:05:11.780 theology and they said, well, they're not circumcised and so on. And it's like, hey, 01:05:11.780 --> 01:05:15.540 I don't know what to say other than that the Holy spirit's on these people. And so it's, 01:05:16.980 --> 01:05:21.540 God is in it. And so I don't, I can't like, are you going to fight against God? You know? 01:05:21.540 --> 01:05:26.260 And if you are, then it's not going to stand. God, God's going to do what he's going to do 01:05:26.260 --> 01:05:30.740 regardless. And so just let it happen, you know? Uh, and that's what I'd say with online, 01:05:30.740 --> 01:05:34.580 you know, and there, there's a lot of preconceived notions. There's a lot of, um, 01:05:35.380 --> 01:05:39.940 uh, misunderstandings or not even just recognizing digital culture. A lot of it, you know, I don't, 01:05:39.940 --> 01:05:45.220 I hesitate to even say this. A lot of the, the questions really come out of, of ignorance of 01:05:45.220 --> 01:05:50.340 what's possible with, with the technology and not understanding the relational aspect of it. 01:05:50.340 --> 01:05:54.660 You know, just every, every conversation I have is all centered around, but you don't know who these 01:05:54.660 --> 01:06:00.020 people are. And it's like, but you can, you just need to invest the time into it. We, we beat that 01:06:00.020 --> 01:06:06.340 up. So I don't want to revisit it. But, uh, Angela, uh, Jate, uh, DJ, man, thanks for jumping on this, 01:06:06.900 --> 01:06:13.620 podcast. It's a great conversation. I will forever have DJ and VR, his image burned in my head. Uh, 01:06:13.620 --> 01:06:19.060 love it. And looking forward to do more conversations with him on the podcast and VR. So for Jate, 01:06:19.060 --> 01:06:23.380 for Angela, for DJ, this is Jeff at the church, digital and Stadia church planning. Thanks for 01:06:23.380 --> 01:06:26.260 being here. Once again, we'll see you next time on the show. Y'all have a good day.