WEBVTT 00:00:00.580 --> 00:00:05.040 Episode 97 of the Church Digital Podcast, powered once again by Stadia Church Planning. 00:00:05.520 --> 00:00:06.620 Jeff here, 97. 00:00:07.340 --> 00:00:11.160 Episode 100 is just around the corner, and it's going to be a doozy. 00:00:11.300 --> 00:00:15.080 I'm not even going to tell you about all the stuff we've got coming up in episode 100. 00:00:15.360 --> 00:00:17.840 I'm just going to tell you, you want to stay tuned. 00:00:17.920 --> 00:00:19.880 It's going to be an incredible episode. 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:21.760 We got enough excitement to talk about today. 00:00:22.120 --> 00:00:26.800 We don't even need to get into what episode 100 is going to look like coming very soon. 00:00:27.140 --> 00:00:29.080 Because here's where we are with episode 97. 00:00:29.080 --> 00:00:31.120 We say, hey, you know what? I don't even get into episode 97 yet. 00:00:31.460 --> 00:00:34.160 There's something really cool before we even get there. 00:00:34.740 --> 00:00:35.840 The Church Digital here. 00:00:36.040 --> 00:00:45.000 With this podcast, the Church Digital Podcast, we do a lot of deep, heady interviews, ask a lot of questions, talk a lot about future stuff, philosophical. 00:00:45.420 --> 00:00:47.300 Yeah, I mean, that's just kind of my groove. 00:00:47.440 --> 00:00:49.120 That's where I like to ride. 00:00:49.320 --> 00:00:51.640 And so we do a lot of that here on the podcast. 00:00:51.920 --> 00:00:53.540 But I hear you listening audience. 00:00:53.960 --> 00:00:56.160 Hey, Jeff, can any of this be practical? 00:00:56.160 --> 00:01:00.420 Hey, Jeff, like, I love where you're going, but that's not where we are today. 00:01:00.660 --> 00:01:03.080 Can you help me where we are today? 00:01:03.400 --> 00:01:05.400 And so we're doing something new. 00:01:05.920 --> 00:01:07.820 We're beta-ing something new. 00:01:08.040 --> 00:01:09.520 We're trying something out. 00:01:09.580 --> 00:01:19.340 We're firing that BB before a bullet, before we get to the cannonball, because we want to see what it looks like for us to do something a little more practical here at the Church Digital. 00:01:19.340 --> 00:01:24.920 So we are launching a new show, and it's going to be called Beta, because why not? 00:01:25.040 --> 00:01:32.220 We're experimenting with something, and we want to help churches like you learn how to experiment, learn how to iterate. 00:01:32.580 --> 00:01:46.220 We want to answer the questions that you're asking right now in this season today and give you practical steps, practical guidance, practical solutions to help your church not get stuck in this COVID season. 00:01:46.220 --> 00:01:53.180 We'll talk philosophical in the podcast, but in this new show, Beta, we want to answer your questions. 00:01:53.340 --> 00:01:54.520 And I mean that quite literally. 00:01:54.740 --> 00:01:57.720 Like, I want you to tell me your questions. 00:01:57.840 --> 00:01:58.740 So here's what we're doing. 00:01:59.160 --> 00:02:00.500 Go to, and you know what? 00:02:00.520 --> 00:02:01.400 It's not even a website. 00:02:01.540 --> 00:02:02.020 That's funny. 00:02:02.080 --> 00:02:03.940 I just automatically went into that. 00:02:04.300 --> 00:02:05.280 I want you to text me. 00:02:05.640 --> 00:02:06.520 Here's what I've got. 00:02:06.980 --> 00:02:12.060 The number is 484-324-8724. 00:02:12.380 --> 00:02:17.480 Now, if you speak phone alphabet, that's literally number four, the church. 00:02:18.260 --> 00:02:20.620 Yes, my phone number is number four, the church. 00:02:20.840 --> 00:02:25.660 Thank God for Google Voice, because I have no idea how I got that number. 00:02:26.200 --> 00:02:27.340 Google Voice helped me get it. 00:02:27.600 --> 00:02:28.600 Number four, the church. 00:02:28.820 --> 00:02:32.200 484-324-8724. 00:02:32.420 --> 00:02:34.320 Text me your questions. 00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:36.020 Where are you stuck as a church? 00:02:36.100 --> 00:02:37.220 What are you wrestling with? 00:02:37.540 --> 00:02:40.720 What are the questions leadership's asking of you that you don't know the answer? 00:02:41.100 --> 00:02:48.740 What are the questions you're asking leadership and leadership's giving you just the blank stare trying to figure out where you are? 00:02:48.740 --> 00:02:59.060 What questions, what struggles, what issues, what challenges are you, the church, facing in this mid, maybe post-COVID season that we're in? 00:02:59.580 --> 00:03:00.300 Where are you at? 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:01.700 I want to help you. 00:03:01.760 --> 00:03:03.900 And so we're doing a weekly show. 00:03:04.020 --> 00:03:08.660 It's going to roll out on Wednesday nights at thechurch.digital. 00:03:08.900 --> 00:03:11.160 We're going to roll it out on social media. 00:03:11.760 --> 00:03:17.700 Podcast is going to launch on Thursday with it called thechurch.digital beta. 00:03:17.980 --> 00:03:19.560 More information on it soon. 00:03:19.660 --> 00:03:21.080 Check social media on that. 00:03:21.180 --> 00:03:24.360 But we're going to launch this thing literally on Wednesday. 00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:37.660 So just in a mere couple days from when this episode launches, you will see beta happening in real time on Thursday, October 1st, and Wednesday, September 31st on social media. 00:03:37.780 --> 00:03:40.820 So check it out there, thechurch.digital beta. 00:03:41.020 --> 00:03:41.940 I told you I'm excited. 00:03:42.300 --> 00:03:44.080 That was a long talk about beta. 00:03:44.320 --> 00:03:47.460 But let's move on here to episode 97. 00:03:47.460 --> 00:03:49.360 So we're going back to the buildings. 00:03:49.500 --> 00:03:51.280 We're starting to get back into this groove. 00:03:51.380 --> 00:03:54.300 We're now wrestling with, oh, my gosh, how do we be physical and digital? 00:03:54.520 --> 00:04:01.540 How do we be super creative in executing the physical environment when we've been pouring all those physical resources into the digital to make it excellent? 00:04:01.720 --> 00:04:04.280 But now the resources are going back to physical. 00:04:04.280 --> 00:04:06.680 How do I still do excellence digitally? 00:04:06.680 --> 00:04:08.880 Why should I even do excellence digitally? 00:04:08.880 --> 00:04:16.580 Is there a reason behind me doing a digital exclusive, a digital service, or should we focus that online? 00:04:16.580 --> 00:04:19.420 Is there a way that the two can work together? 00:04:19.420 --> 00:04:27.720 These are really the questions that we wrestled with here at the Church Digital Podcast here in episode 97, having a conversation with Craig Dockery. 00:04:27.800 --> 00:04:31.480 Now, Craig is like the weekend experience guy for the church. 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:39.580 He's the lead creative responsible for the physical as well as the digital types of environments there for Crossroads. 00:04:39.940 --> 00:04:42.140 Crossroads, by the way, we'll put a link in the show notes. 00:04:42.140 --> 00:04:52.360 If you've not watched their online services, arguably at this point, I would say it's one of the most, if not the most, creative service that's executed here online. 00:04:52.780 --> 00:04:58.100 Like, I'm not saying I talk about this in the podcast and it still blows my mind, this example. 00:04:58.680 --> 00:05:05.400 I'm literally watching their lead pastor, Brian Tome, preach a sermon while wakeboarding behind the boat. 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:07.180 Like, the camera's following him. 00:05:07.240 --> 00:05:10.460 You can see the boom mic on the boat trying to get the audio. 00:05:11.100 --> 00:05:14.500 It's just crazy some of the creative aspects they're putting in. 00:05:14.500 --> 00:05:22.700 But more than just some of these crazy aspects, man, they're really rethinking the liturgy, the flow, the execution of this. 00:05:23.520 --> 00:05:27.280 Do we need to have a 30-minute sermon or is it better to have four seven-minute sermons? 00:05:27.480 --> 00:05:29.720 Let's ask that question and figure it out. 00:05:29.880 --> 00:05:40.720 And so, like, you're really starting to see Crossroads start to pull the thread on some really interesting conversations about what a creative service looks like. 00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:42.220 So, let's listen to this. 00:05:42.320 --> 00:05:43.180 Let's dive in. 00:05:43.620 --> 00:05:47.560 Churches, like, first and foremost, like, Crossroads has a ton of resources. 00:05:48.040 --> 00:05:53.980 And it's very easy to listen to this conversation and get church lust to think, oh, my gosh, I wish I had that. 00:05:54.040 --> 00:05:55.440 Oh, my gosh, I wish I had this time. 00:05:55.820 --> 00:06:00.200 Those resources, that finance, that budget, that red camera, whatever it is. 00:06:00.280 --> 00:06:03.100 Like, don't get lost in that world, church. 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:17.460 Get lost in this idea of intentionality and rethinking what digital looks like and how what we're doing digitally cannot just exist in the digital space, but how it can coexist in physical. 00:06:17.460 --> 00:06:23.200 And how the digital service can maybe make our physical service better. 00:06:23.440 --> 00:06:25.040 That's the wind of this conversation. 00:06:25.200 --> 00:06:28.360 And so, I'm bringing in, once again, Craig Dockery from Crossroads. 00:06:28.460 --> 00:06:40.840 I'm bringing in Ray DeArmas, digital pastor from Christ Fellowship Miami, co-host, once again, myself, Jeff, with the Church Digital and Stadia Church Planning in a conversation that I'm calling Crossroads Creative Online Services. 00:06:41.340 --> 00:06:42.980 Okay, everybody, here you go. 00:06:43.380 --> 00:06:53.260 Well, hey, you know, even just to kind of open it up here a little bit, tell us your ministry story, how you ended up at Crossroads, how you ended up in the role that you're in. 00:06:53.400 --> 00:06:55.220 You know, what does that path look like for you? 00:06:55.500 --> 00:07:02.560 Well, I'll try and give you the short version, but it started with me being in elementary school, being the kid who could draw and play piano. 00:07:02.820 --> 00:07:14.920 Played in bands and also did graphic design for the first part of my career and worked at different design agencies and kind of business consulting kind of groups and in between doing little tours with bands and all that. 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:28.800 And my 20s were pretty dead spiritually, and I found my way to Crossroads and just sat in the back because I was frustrated and everything with just the church and kind of healed there for a couple of years. 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:39.260 And then started volunteering on the weekends, playing music, and then I started to meet these friends who were super talented and kind and love Jesus. 00:07:39.540 --> 00:07:42.680 And I was like, I didn't even know these people existed, you know? 00:07:42.740 --> 00:07:43.840 And then one thing led to another. 00:07:43.920 --> 00:07:49.420 I keep meeting folks, and I would go on, like, mission trips and volunteer at events and do things like that. 00:07:49.460 --> 00:07:56.100 And the next thing you know, my buddy Matt, my friend now Matt, said, would you ever want to work at Crossroads? 00:07:56.160 --> 00:07:57.040 And I was like, no. 00:07:57.600 --> 00:08:01.840 You know, and then, like, six months later, I couldn't get it out of my head, and I said, yeah, okay, I'll do it. 00:08:01.880 --> 00:08:03.900 And so, that was almost 10 years ago. 00:08:03.940 --> 00:08:12.360 And I started off more on, like, the design communication side of things, and I've slowly kind of flowed over to the experience side of what we do. 00:08:12.900 --> 00:08:13.220 Awesome. 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:18.000 And so, like, just specifically, tell me about your role. 00:08:18.860 --> 00:08:21.800 What are you currently doing in context of Crossroads? 00:08:21.800 --> 00:08:35.380 So, I currently lead kind of our centralized creative team, which consists of a video team, a music and worship team, or two teams, and then creative directors and producers. 00:08:35.500 --> 00:08:39.540 So, we have a team of those that will work hand-in-hand to lead every project. 00:08:39.920 --> 00:08:41.800 And then we still interface a ton. 00:08:41.860 --> 00:08:50.640 We work a lot with the sites and the folks that support that, and our marketing team, and the folks who do the branding and series brands and all that kind of thing. 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:55.320 So, it's a lot of weekend service-related content. 00:08:55.680 --> 00:08:56.280 Yeah, yeah. 00:08:56.280 --> 00:08:57.540 Stuff even beyond that? 00:08:57.740 --> 00:08:59.260 Like, what specifics? 00:08:59.520 --> 00:09:00.460 Like, some practical? 00:09:00.620 --> 00:09:01.620 What are the things that you're doing? 00:09:01.620 --> 00:09:08.700 The kinds of work that we would do, that the folks on my team would do, are basically all of the online weekend stuff. 00:09:09.980 --> 00:09:15.280 Oversee whatever a series brand or creative direction for any of that would be. 00:09:16.280 --> 00:09:29.340 Under the music team, we have all of our Crossroads music, which is just, you know, Spotify artists or whatever, you know, that we're promoting, doing a ton of songwriting and putting, you know, building up that whole thing. 00:09:30.340 --> 00:09:34.280 And then we'll help out on all different kinds of things. 00:09:34.380 --> 00:09:39.920 Like, that will spread out to sites whenever there's, you know, services at sites. 00:09:40.200 --> 00:09:42.440 And we do some ministry support. 00:09:42.560 --> 00:09:50.800 But as we've grown, most of the ministry support would come through a weekend experience where it's like, oh, you guys have a thing coming up. 00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:53.640 We'll make an ad for it and put it in here and do it in there. 00:09:53.720 --> 00:09:58.680 But basically, the vast majority of our work is making the weekend happen. 00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:03.980 Yeah, I've been so impressed with Crossroads in the season watching. 00:10:04.140 --> 00:10:11.600 And I don't, not on a regular basis, not on a weekly basis, but, you know, one of those churches, I'll just kind of flip around and be like, hey, let me check out the service. 00:10:11.680 --> 00:10:12.380 Let me see what's happening. 00:10:12.840 --> 00:10:24.460 And the creative resources that are getting put into these services, the unique approach that you guys are doing in creating these services are really phenomenal. 00:10:24.740 --> 00:10:38.300 Like, just the different spin, the approach to not looking, you know, the average church service in this COVID season, forgive me, churches that are out there, it's the physical church model that's done online. 00:10:38.420 --> 00:10:42.240 Yeah, maybe some of the churches are literally recording like the worship and the teaching on stage. 00:10:42.240 --> 00:10:43.780 And if you're doing that, that's great. 00:10:43.860 --> 00:10:55.500 Or you're kind of taking that model and you're doing things in a living room or a different thing, but you're still kind of like following that same template, that same mold of what church is. 00:10:55.500 --> 00:11:06.320 And it feels like with you guys, man, you've really kind of flipped the script here and have taken a much different approach to how your online services go. 00:11:06.620 --> 00:11:15.320 Like maybe speak a little bit to that, like what has that process been for you in discovery of how to do a unique approach to a digital service? 00:11:15.420 --> 00:11:17.860 It's been a really long process, I would say. 00:11:18.160 --> 00:11:29.000 So this started all the way back in 2014 with us saying, what if we did like video teaching for the first, for Easter, you know, and 2014, that was great. 00:11:29.040 --> 00:11:37.460 And we went to Brian, our senior pastor, he taught in a barn and a junkyard and a room full of lanterns or something like that, you know. 00:11:37.540 --> 00:11:39.480 And I was like, oh, that's kind of interesting. 00:11:39.640 --> 00:11:40.980 It's a different take on things. 00:11:41.100 --> 00:11:45.540 And then in 2015, we went over and we did Easter in Israel. 00:11:45.720 --> 00:11:49.400 And so we spent a whole week filming there, filming a band on location and all that. 00:11:49.460 --> 00:11:57.220 And it just grew and grew and grew until in 2018, we said, we're going to try and do 20 weekends that are screened first. 00:11:57.220 --> 00:12:03.920 Because we are seeing the same trend of people are consuming, people are consuming church in a different way. 00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:13.300 You know, for the kind of church, the big attractional kind of ginormo church that we are, you know, it used to be trying to get people to come and sit in the back row. 00:12:13.300 --> 00:12:19.540 Well, the new back row is the website or the screen or the Apple TV app or whatever it is, you know. 00:12:19.640 --> 00:12:24.580 So thinking about if we're trying to reach new people, the place they get introduced to us is digitally. 00:12:24.880 --> 00:12:26.520 And so let's start there. 00:12:26.940 --> 00:12:34.260 And, you know, it kind of came down to the insight of people don't just like to watch cooking shows anymore. 00:12:34.340 --> 00:12:39.540 They watch Chef's Table, you know, that it just, the chef is in this amazing immersive environment. 00:12:39.540 --> 00:12:51.460 Or even you go back to the 90s and people consume Jerry Seinfeld, not just on a stage, but through his show that just, you know, embraces the medium that where people are, you know. 00:12:51.520 --> 00:12:53.380 And so that's what we started doing. 00:12:53.460 --> 00:12:59.260 And so we've had a bunch of wins and some failures and all this. 00:12:59.260 --> 00:13:15.080 But, you know, like we've learned a lot along the way to the point that when we went digital first, this, or digital only, you know, online only in, I guess it was like early March this year, we'd done 30 of these already, you know. 00:13:15.100 --> 00:13:17.780 So we already had some reps and we're like, well, okay, now how do we do it? 00:13:18.060 --> 00:13:19.900 What if we had to do this every week? 00:13:20.260 --> 00:13:28.580 You know, and so we quickly made some pivots, but we had enough in our back pocket in ways that we had, you know, we'd learned some stuff already. 00:13:28.580 --> 00:13:29.180 So it was great. 00:13:29.720 --> 00:13:30.040 It's good. 00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:33.660 And so, you know, obviously COVID hits, everybody makes a shift. 00:13:34.480 --> 00:13:37.740 Early on, I mean, a lot of us paid the dumb tax and some different stuff. 00:13:37.920 --> 00:13:40.060 What were some things that you saw when you made that transition? 00:13:40.060 --> 00:13:46.700 Even though you had already kind of dabbled in this stuff, what were some things that you saw early on were going to be some challenges, I guess you could say? 00:13:46.820 --> 00:13:50.840 Because most churches aren't even close to where you guys even were back then. 00:13:51.780 --> 00:13:55.260 I think it had as much to do with how do we make a cohesive experience. 00:13:55.480 --> 00:14:00.620 So, you know, a lot of times when you're filming, you're filming a piece at a time, you know, and then you glue it all together. 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:14.240 And one of the things that we had learned pretty early on was we need to add these host segments that, like, connect people from the beginning to the end and then figure out, well, where do you put, does worship go up front or at the end? 00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:17.620 Or is there offering, you know, like, how does all that go? 00:14:17.680 --> 00:14:26.400 And so we started having to go back and we do more reshoots, you know, to try and figure out how do we make this thing flow from beginning to end. 00:14:26.400 --> 00:14:35.940 And then we even have figured out, you know, with all these different locations, like we might shoot worship here and teaching here and the host segment here. 00:14:36.280 --> 00:14:39.680 And then there's another little ad that we make for a thing coming up. 00:14:39.780 --> 00:14:41.340 How do we visually tie that all together? 00:14:41.520 --> 00:14:48.480 And so we've had a lot of bouncing back and forth and that's just the beginning of it, let alone how to make teaching compelling, you know, so. 00:14:49.040 --> 00:14:54.480 That element there on the teaching, like, what were some things that you found there to make it that much more compelling for an online environment? 00:14:54.900 --> 00:14:59.400 Well, we're still learning how to do it, you know, because we're continuing to do this every week. 00:14:59.900 --> 00:15:05.740 And, you know, one of the hallmarks of our culture, I think, is that we're never like, we never put it on autopilot. 00:15:06.020 --> 00:15:09.180 We just, I don't know, it's just a bunch of people that are wired not to do that, you know. 00:15:09.220 --> 00:15:11.800 And so we're always pushing, like, what can we do to make it better? 00:15:11.860 --> 00:15:12.760 How can we make it different? 00:15:13.300 --> 00:15:18.860 And it's funny, some of this stuff just comes down to process as well as what's the great big creative idea. 00:15:18.980 --> 00:15:33.160 So, you know, we just finished, we just filmed yesterday and the teaching for the first week in October and our senior pastor, Brian, had been feeling a lot of frustration about, like, we started off, like, filming in scenes. 00:15:33.160 --> 00:15:36.280 Like, we would do three or four chunks of things. 00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:40.080 And for a teacher to try and get continuity with that, it's just hard. 00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:53.900 So we always have a director and a content person to be, like, just more brains to make sure that this point's getting made or, man, you were shouting the whole time, you know, like, because they don't get that natural rise and fall of what a teaching is. 00:15:53.900 --> 00:16:05.860 And so with this last one, what we did yesterday, we did way more, like, a single take and we adjusted the way that we approached the creative for that and, like, went back and he's telling a story about being in a hospital waiting room. 00:16:05.920 --> 00:16:13.100 And we filmed it in a place that looks almost like a hospital waiting room because actually getting in one to film is impossible right now. 00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:26.800 But, you know, we would still creatively, like, fill his narrative with some slow-mo B-roll of him kind of reenacting, like, listening to music as he's worshiping, as he's waiting for, you know, the diagnosis or whatever. 00:16:26.800 --> 00:16:40.760 So still finding creative ways to tell it, but trying to get to, like, you know, it's kind of like teaching, it's like for an actor, this is the whole switch from, like, plays to film, right? 00:16:40.840 --> 00:16:47.080 And so an actor, a stage actor, has to act a totally different way. 00:16:47.140 --> 00:16:48.700 It's like the whole body acts, right? 00:16:48.880 --> 00:16:52.120 And then on film, it's just, like, the face that acts, you know? 00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:59.420 And so you have to learn all these new things and you learn versus, like, how do you do the whole play versus how do you get this scene exactly right? 00:16:59.580 --> 00:17:04.640 And there's a lot of trust that has to happen from the director or whoever that has the big picture, you know? 00:17:04.740 --> 00:17:09.040 So anyway, we're dancing with all that stuff and trying to figure that out. 00:17:09.060 --> 00:17:14.420 And we have four teachers each that will teach the weekends to different varying degrees. 00:17:14.420 --> 00:17:18.120 And some teach really great in the chopped up ones. 00:17:18.320 --> 00:17:23.960 And Brian is like, you just got to let me, like, I got to burn for something and you got to let me get moving on it. 00:17:24.020 --> 00:17:26.680 And so we're constantly tweaking how to do all that stuff. 00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:34.780 But I think it's kind of the analog of from the stage to the screen back, which we did, like, the turn of last century, you know? 00:17:34.860 --> 00:17:36.020 People have done this before. 00:17:36.100 --> 00:17:36.700 And it's hard. 00:17:36.820 --> 00:17:37.260 It's difficult. 00:17:37.620 --> 00:17:39.340 Some people are better at one than the other, you know? 00:17:39.340 --> 00:17:45.660 Yeah, I was recently talking with a church that was wrestling with some of this digital first mentality. 00:17:46.500 --> 00:18:01.180 And the thing, like, even the video producer with this church was wrestling with, no, like, and he was the guy who was actually quoting, like, the liturgy and the way that the church services is done, doing it digitally, like, represented on the stage. 00:18:01.180 --> 00:18:05.000 And not really seeing the opportunity to think outside of it. 00:18:05.360 --> 00:18:14.940 And really, the illustration that kind of got him to shift was actually, like, back in the day in the early 20s, like, how they were making films 100 years ago. 00:18:15.120 --> 00:18:15.340 Yeah. 00:18:15.540 --> 00:18:17.340 They were filming these stage performances. 00:18:17.600 --> 00:18:17.860 Totally. 00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:29.280 And as it shifted, it moved away from filming a stage performance instead of, and then it went to, hey, let's film a film, get the shots that are necessary for that, and edit it together. 00:18:29.800 --> 00:18:36.160 And it was funny, like, even just watching his brain start to shift away from an old way of thinking to a new way of thinking. 00:18:36.380 --> 00:18:39.340 And over the course of, like, an hour-long conversation, he's like, that's it. 00:18:39.460 --> 00:18:40.480 Yeah, I'm sold. 00:18:40.560 --> 00:18:40.940 This is it. 00:18:40.940 --> 00:18:47.900 And it makes total sense because it's just a natural progression of how we're moving away from just a stage expression. 00:18:48.260 --> 00:18:51.720 To this more creative, more engaging conversation. 00:18:51.880 --> 00:18:53.300 And it's engaging, by the way. 00:18:53.300 --> 00:19:00.420 Like, I was watching one of your services, and I'm watching your lead pastor, Brian, preach while he's on a wakeboard. 00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:03.580 Like, he's in a bathing suit, wearing a lifejack on a boat. 00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:05.560 And I'm like, hey, this is kind of cool. 00:19:05.640 --> 00:19:07.460 This is setting the stage well. 00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:09.760 And he goes over and picks up the wakeboard. 00:19:09.760 --> 00:19:10.860 And I'm like, hey, what? 00:19:10.920 --> 00:19:11.560 He's still preaching. 00:19:11.980 --> 00:19:13.200 Why has he got that wakeboard? 00:19:13.260 --> 00:19:14.500 Is that, like, a prop later on? 00:19:14.800 --> 00:19:18.020 A couple minutes later, he's literally getting drugged behind a boat. 00:19:18.120 --> 00:19:22.320 I'm seeing a boom mic kind of in the shot as you're trying to get the audio. 00:19:22.620 --> 00:19:24.100 But I'm watching him preach. 00:19:24.540 --> 00:19:25.960 Like, I keep looking down at his feet. 00:19:26.020 --> 00:19:30.420 I'm wondering if his script's at his feet or if he's just trying to get comfortable on the wakeboard. 00:19:30.620 --> 00:19:34.560 But he's preaching the sermon while getting drugged behind a boat at X number of miles per hour. 00:19:34.560 --> 00:19:36.320 I mean, that's crazy. 00:19:36.520 --> 00:19:39.320 And it's engaging to a digital audience. 00:19:39.620 --> 00:19:41.100 Sometimes it starts really strategically. 00:19:41.360 --> 00:19:43.080 Like, this is the topic we need to hit. 00:19:43.560 --> 00:19:45.700 And therefore, what's the thing that's actually going to do it? 00:19:45.940 --> 00:19:48.860 And then other times, it's like, well, we're talking about adventure. 00:19:49.820 --> 00:19:50.700 What sounds awesome? 00:19:51.060 --> 00:19:51.420 You know? 00:19:51.600 --> 00:19:57.160 And then, and Brian, you know, that's Brian's boat and his wakeboard and all that kind of stuff. 00:19:57.400 --> 00:20:00.440 So, I mean, he's just, that's one of the things that he's into. 00:20:00.540 --> 00:20:02.080 He's like, oh, I could totally preach doing that. 00:20:02.140 --> 00:20:03.280 And we're like, heck, yeah, you could. 00:20:03.340 --> 00:20:03.820 That'd be awesome. 00:20:04.560 --> 00:20:06.020 Then we wrap the whole thing around it. 00:20:06.560 --> 00:20:11.880 If you watch the whole thing, though, what's interesting is it's a series on adventure, 00:20:12.040 --> 00:20:17.440 which is we believe that faith is the adventurous life. 00:20:17.460 --> 00:20:20.680 And that doesn't mean the easy life or you're always just aiming for the mountaintops. 00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:24.100 But an adventure is like saying yes to the hard thing that's in front of you. 00:20:24.260 --> 00:20:28.880 And so we use the wake surfing as, at first we started, it was like, that'll be sweet. 00:20:28.940 --> 00:20:29.840 But where do we fit it in? 00:20:29.860 --> 00:20:32.920 Because then you have to have the watch out of, but there's a bunch of people that are like, 00:20:32.980 --> 00:20:35.860 well, yeah, that's the stereotypical adventure, but that's not what we're talking about. 00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:40.600 And so we had to set it up as, this is what people think of it as adventure. 00:20:40.800 --> 00:20:44.280 But then if you watch to the very end, then it's really like the real adventure that you 00:20:44.280 --> 00:20:49.240 have is at this dinner table with your spouse, having a conversation about how you're going 00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:55.180 to keep your marriage together or how you're going to get out of debt or what you really 00:20:55.180 --> 00:20:57.460 believe about God or all those kinds of things. 00:20:57.600 --> 00:21:01.620 And so it's, I don't know, it's funny, like the stuff just keeps flowing. 00:21:01.820 --> 00:21:05.160 You know, early on we said, what happens if we run out of ideas? 00:21:05.180 --> 00:21:09.340 And I'm like, listen, guys, the Holy Spirit's the best creative director out there. 00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:12.740 And I got to trust that he wants us to come up with more stuff, you know? 00:21:12.740 --> 00:21:16.100 So we just got to take one idea at a time and all that. 00:21:16.220 --> 00:21:18.540 And it's just, the ideas come from all over the place. 00:21:18.620 --> 00:21:24.380 I'd say the, if there's one contributing factor besides the Holy Spirit being a great creative 00:21:24.380 --> 00:21:30.460 director is we have a great team and we do everything in team. 00:21:30.540 --> 00:21:34.460 That's why I wanted to have my colleague Paula on there, but she's on a shoot. 00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:41.360 There's this 1975 Volkswagen minibus that we're filming for the next thing and it died and 00:21:41.360 --> 00:21:46.720 she's at AutoZone trying to figure out if, if it's the battery or something more sinister, 00:21:46.940 --> 00:21:47.260 you know? 00:21:47.300 --> 00:21:52.060 So she couldn't be here, but every, like everything we do, it's never, there's never a lone wolf 00:21:52.060 --> 00:21:54.420 or the single mad genius. 00:21:54.420 --> 00:22:00.060 It's like everything gets run through this whole team of really, really talented people 00:22:00.060 --> 00:22:01.580 that are really trusting of each other too. 00:22:01.760 --> 00:22:04.440 So even more than the talent is the trust, I think is the key. 00:22:04.740 --> 00:22:12.400 Yeah, I'm just curious, even setting the stage here, describe like that team, staff, volunteers, 00:22:13.120 --> 00:22:18.020 you know, we've got varying churches, big churches, small churches, but having that creative team 00:22:18.020 --> 00:22:22.420 as opposed to one person kind of driving vision down, but having that team approach, I'm just 00:22:22.420 --> 00:22:25.880 curious, like describe that team, who's got a seat at the table? 00:22:25.960 --> 00:22:28.520 And we have a pretty, so it's a decently sized team. 00:22:28.620 --> 00:22:33.720 So what I would say is don't listen to the sheer headcount, but think about the roles that 00:22:33.720 --> 00:22:34.540 are involved, right? 00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:43.040 So there's the teacher and we have a whole content team that kind of lays out, assists 00:22:43.040 --> 00:22:44.580 the teachers and saying, these are the topics. 00:22:44.700 --> 00:22:48.680 And there's a handful of folks on this team that kind of say, what do we think God's saying 00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:49.060 to our church? 00:22:49.120 --> 00:22:49.640 What do we want to do? 00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:54.500 So there's always a content, just on a shoot, there's a content rep who's saying, these are 00:22:54.500 --> 00:22:55.360 the points you got to hit. 00:22:55.420 --> 00:22:56.180 They're walking along. 00:22:56.520 --> 00:22:59.220 We've kind of graduated to using teleprompters way more often. 00:22:59.220 --> 00:23:03.760 So they're managing that and managing the script to say like, these are the bullet points or 00:23:03.760 --> 00:23:04.020 whatever. 00:23:05.060 --> 00:23:09.940 And then there's the director and there's the, and so there's like two or three people that 00:23:09.940 --> 00:23:11.560 can be a content person. 00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:15.200 And then there's about four of us that can be directors. 00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:19.260 And so we're making sure from a, you know, it, it, it looks right. 00:23:19.340 --> 00:23:24.580 The whole story kind of pulls together, you know, um, a lot of times a director would kind 00:23:24.580 --> 00:23:28.360 of be content and directing, you know, in a regular film or whatever, but just because 00:23:28.360 --> 00:23:32.140 of the teaching and cause it's like every week and there's a new, there's always a new idea. 00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:35.040 You know, it's great to have a brain just focused on that. 00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:39.780 So it's, you know, tying together the emotional, like the performance, so to speak of the teacher, 00:23:39.860 --> 00:23:44.080 like, how are you emotively, you know, teaching and expressing yourself here? 00:23:44.660 --> 00:23:50.140 Um, and then we have a whole production crew that will typically be one or two camera guys. 00:23:50.460 --> 00:23:54.400 And then if there's two camera guys, then there'll be a director of photography that's 00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:55.880 making sure everything is working. 00:23:56.120 --> 00:23:58.920 And they also kind of work with lighting and all that. 00:23:58.980 --> 00:24:01.020 So there'll be rigging up lights and doing all kinds of stuff. 00:24:01.260 --> 00:24:02.900 Then there's an audio guy doing there. 00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:08.660 And usually there's like a, and those are all, everyone there so far is typically staff. 00:24:09.120 --> 00:24:13.320 Occasionally we have some like really talented creatives that will step in and direct, um, 00:24:14.060 --> 00:24:17.440 you know, on a high powered volunteer thing, or we might contract them occasionally. 00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:23.380 And then we, um, usually have a grip or two that's just lugging around stuff. 00:24:23.380 --> 00:24:25.760 Like one of the big things is you just don't have time. 00:24:25.900 --> 00:24:28.360 So on a video shoot, you know, time is of the essence. 00:24:28.360 --> 00:24:30.060 It's like, it's like a game, right? 00:24:30.080 --> 00:24:30.860 It's like a football game. 00:24:30.860 --> 00:24:33.020 And so there's only so much time to get it done. 00:24:33.080 --> 00:24:37.240 So you do all the prep before you can do all the debriefs after, but the more hands you 00:24:37.240 --> 00:24:37.840 have, the better. 00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:39.280 So there'll be a couple of grips there. 00:24:40.080 --> 00:24:46.600 And, uh, in the best, in the best cases we have a makeup person, just, we always forget 00:24:46.600 --> 00:24:46.780 it. 00:24:46.780 --> 00:24:50.800 Cause it's just a bunch of like scraggly looking guys making this thing. 00:24:50.840 --> 00:24:55.860 And then, and then Brian, our teacher, you know, main teacher is like, how do I look? 00:24:55.860 --> 00:24:57.080 And I'm like, fine. 00:24:57.080 --> 00:25:01.440 And he's like, you need, we need another set of, you know, you look like yourself, whatever. 00:25:01.620 --> 00:25:04.120 So, um, we have that. 00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:06.020 So that's usually kind of the bare bones crew. 00:25:06.080 --> 00:25:10.960 And then there will be a day of producer for the video team who was just making sure that 00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:12.520 like everything runs according to schedule. 00:25:12.520 --> 00:25:17.660 Like all the stuff, all the props are on the set, all, you know, we're getting fed, all 00:25:17.660 --> 00:25:18.420 of that kind of thing. 00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:20.600 And so that's kind of the core crew. 00:25:20.740 --> 00:25:25.340 And then ahead of that, the creative director or the director and the content person and 00:25:25.340 --> 00:25:31.860 the teacher and the overall experience producer for the whole series will work together and 00:25:31.860 --> 00:25:35.220 kind of come up with a plan, work through that with the video team. 00:25:35.300 --> 00:25:35.900 Then we have to shoot. 00:25:36.100 --> 00:25:37.820 And then there's a team of editors. 00:25:38.080 --> 00:25:41.780 Usually there's like one editor that pulls it together with the help of a couple others 00:25:41.780 --> 00:25:43.860 because it's the weekend teaching. 00:25:44.040 --> 00:25:47.820 And then we also have the worship stuff and we're kind of running that parallel concurrently. 00:25:47.860 --> 00:25:49.040 So that's a whole different setup. 00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:52.920 That's, it's actually a lot more people because we have more cameras at once that we're filming 00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:53.220 with. 00:25:53.580 --> 00:25:55.000 How far out are you guys? 00:25:55.140 --> 00:25:59.180 Just because, I mean, all this storyboarding and just kind of thinking through the visuals 00:25:59.180 --> 00:26:01.040 and connecting visuals and all that stuff. 00:26:01.220 --> 00:26:02.780 I can only imagine it's a lot. 00:26:02.860 --> 00:26:06.720 And I'd heard you mentioned earlier that you guys already filmed October, which, you know, 00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:09.180 for those of you listening, like we're kind of two weeks out from that. 00:26:09.460 --> 00:26:15.220 So at the time of this recording, so what are you thinking in terms of, hey, I, not just 00:26:15.220 --> 00:26:17.880 ideally, but on the norm, we're normally right here. 00:26:18.220 --> 00:26:21.400 For a creative, there's nothing like a deadline to actually get work done, you know? 00:26:21.400 --> 00:26:26.900 So the real deadline that we had when we went into lockdown in March was we started putting 00:26:26.900 --> 00:26:31.600 stuff on TV and that all had an episode or a service. 00:26:31.740 --> 00:26:34.680 We just call them episodes because that's really, they're more like, they can be spiritual 00:26:34.680 --> 00:26:35.320 episodes, right? 00:26:35.460 --> 00:26:40.900 So, um, an episode had to be done by the Wednesday before it was shown on that Sunday. 00:26:40.900 --> 00:26:45.760 And so we were in a bunch of different local markets where I've actually switched our TV 00:26:45.760 --> 00:26:46.500 strategy a little bit. 00:26:46.560 --> 00:26:53.420 We're going to be on TBN for, um, uh, ongoing or whatever, but, uh, for a long, and it's a 00:26:53.420 --> 00:26:54.940 whole, that's a whole other way of thinking. 00:26:54.940 --> 00:27:00.160 But if we had to be done with everything the Wednesday before, then that meant our first 00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:05.540 review of the video was the Wednesday, like two Wednesdays before, which meant we needed 00:27:05.540 --> 00:27:08.080 another week to edit it from shooting. 00:27:08.200 --> 00:27:13.120 And so it really, what it came down to is it took, it took, takes about a month of time 00:27:13.120 --> 00:27:14.360 to put the whole thing together. 00:27:14.360 --> 00:27:19.280 So we're thinking you're concepting four weeks out, filming three weeks out, editing two weeks 00:27:19.280 --> 00:27:24.160 out and then finishing and posting the week of, and it was, it was hard to get to that place. 00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:29.500 And we're, but we're finally in a rhythm where it's still tough because it's just a huge amount 00:27:29.500 --> 00:27:29.920 of work. 00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:36.020 But, um, but we have the expectations set, you know, now of all the creative ideas that 00:27:36.020 --> 00:27:42.420 kind of you, you generated at this point, four weeks out, like if, if you're executing at 00:27:42.420 --> 00:27:48.320 that, like you don't have a lot of buffer or variance for, well, that's not going to work. 00:27:48.320 --> 00:27:52.060 You know, let's come up with, let's iterate and do another thing. 00:27:52.060 --> 00:27:56.380 So there's a lot of pressure, TBN television broadcasts as well. 00:27:56.460 --> 00:27:58.420 It's getting more and more complex for you. 00:27:58.480 --> 00:27:59.940 How do you know if an idea is going to work? 00:28:00.260 --> 00:28:01.020 You never do. 00:28:01.160 --> 00:28:02.420 You never know if it's going to work. 00:28:02.500 --> 00:28:04.600 I mean, cause it's so many things coming together. 00:28:04.740 --> 00:28:09.880 It's just one, it's the idea that just, just talking about the medium video is the most 00:28:09.880 --> 00:28:10.980 collaborative art form. 00:28:11.120 --> 00:28:12.940 So you got to get the right performance. 00:28:13.080 --> 00:28:14.400 You got to get the camera done well. 00:28:14.600 --> 00:28:18.140 If it's trying, if you're trying to be funny, it actually has to be funny. 00:28:18.260 --> 00:28:19.700 You know, the timing has to be right. 00:28:19.700 --> 00:28:23.860 And the whole thing has to come together and yeah, you just never know. 00:28:23.960 --> 00:28:28.100 But I, it's that, that old adage, like the harder you work, the luckier you get. 00:28:28.100 --> 00:28:33.440 So the more, the more reps you get on something, the more likely you are to, to hit it every 00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:34.400 now and again, you know? 00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:38.300 So, I mean, yeah, you never know if it's going to work. 00:28:38.300 --> 00:28:42.040 And a lot of times that I think one of the hardest things for us is we get an idea for 00:28:42.040 --> 00:28:43.780 something like, Oh, that'd be cool. 00:28:43.780 --> 00:28:47.400 Like two, two locations that we really struggled with three, three. 00:28:48.120 --> 00:28:51.020 One was we're talking about God as judge. 00:28:51.360 --> 00:28:53.120 Well, what's the sweetest place to do that? 00:28:53.180 --> 00:28:53.720 In a courtroom. 00:28:53.980 --> 00:28:54.200 Great. 00:28:54.320 --> 00:28:55.520 Oh, it's COVID. 00:28:55.660 --> 00:28:56.360 They're all closed. 00:28:56.420 --> 00:29:02.680 And then like the day before the shoot, you know, I mean, you just start praying and it's 00:29:02.680 --> 00:29:02.900 funny. 00:29:02.980 --> 00:29:06.860 God, I think God cares about video locations and a place opened up. 00:29:06.940 --> 00:29:15.040 You know, we were just trying to do the waiting room and we barely got into that, you know, 00:29:15.040 --> 00:29:15.740 just in time. 00:29:16.340 --> 00:29:23.140 We just filmed, we film all of our music sets for an entire series at one time. 00:29:23.140 --> 00:29:28.040 And we were in this giant airplane hangar that we were able to get a hold of where the guy 00:29:28.040 --> 00:29:32.620 was like, well, if it rains, I don't have to move the planes in. 00:29:32.700 --> 00:29:34.220 And we're like, that's where we're going to be. 00:29:34.320 --> 00:29:35.460 And so it was just all sketchy. 00:29:35.520 --> 00:29:39.540 It was like, I hope it doesn't rain Tuesday and Wednesday because we're loading in and doing 00:29:39.540 --> 00:29:40.040 all this stuff. 00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:42.140 And so it really, I don't know. 00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:44.480 I think that it's kind of like, there's no atheist in a foxhole. 00:29:44.600 --> 00:29:49.420 There's no, no atheist on a video shoot, you know, just because there's so many factors 00:29:49.420 --> 00:29:51.300 that you just don't have control over, you know? 00:29:51.640 --> 00:29:56.300 What's been the craziest idea you guys have come up with that's like, no, that's too crazy. 00:29:56.700 --> 00:30:00.620 What's like the, I mean, you had somebody preaching, Brian's preaching while he's wakeboarding. 00:30:00.840 --> 00:30:02.640 That to me, it's crazy. 00:30:03.180 --> 00:30:06.280 Tell me the thing that you're like, no, we're going to bank that one. 00:30:06.380 --> 00:30:06.740 We'll do that one. 00:30:06.740 --> 00:30:07.000 I don't know. 00:30:07.060 --> 00:30:07.540 I don't know. 00:30:07.620 --> 00:30:12.040 I mean, I think some of it comes down to, it's not crazy if everybody's excited about 00:30:12.040 --> 00:30:12.520 it, you know? 00:30:12.540 --> 00:30:16.060 So it's really less about how aggressive is it. 00:30:16.100 --> 00:30:19.460 And it's more like, is everybody kind of, can we get everybody pumped about this? 00:30:19.500 --> 00:30:24.100 Cause you know, the video guys have, they work a ton of time and there's, and they're 00:30:24.100 --> 00:30:25.860 super creative, but also super technical. 00:30:25.860 --> 00:30:30.780 And like, we're going to, how are we going to rig the lighting up to make this whole thing 00:30:30.780 --> 00:30:31.160 work? 00:30:31.160 --> 00:30:32.020 Or how are we going to make it? 00:30:32.040 --> 00:30:33.420 So you can actually hear the guy or whatever. 00:30:33.540 --> 00:30:37.040 But if they're, if they're pumped about the concept as much as you are, and if the teacher 00:30:37.040 --> 00:30:38.540 is, then they'll do anything. 00:30:38.540 --> 00:30:41.380 One thing we tried to do that didn't work. 00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:46.440 Well, we pitched it, we were trying to get Chuck, one of our other teachers to teach 00:30:46.440 --> 00:30:51.020 like upside down for like five minutes and like have the camera upside down. 00:30:51.140 --> 00:30:54.560 And then it, it's like, you turn the camera and you're like, oh, he's been upside down 00:30:54.560 --> 00:30:55.040 the whole time. 00:30:55.040 --> 00:30:58.440 It's this like old Penn and Teller SNL skit from the eighties. 00:30:58.520 --> 00:30:59.360 That's really great. 00:30:59.880 --> 00:31:03.800 And like, it took us like four days, like he wouldn't email us back. 00:31:03.820 --> 00:31:06.840 And then he's finally like, I don't want to do that. 00:31:07.340 --> 00:31:11.740 You know, so, I mean, you just got to keep pushing, you know, and whatever works, works, 00:31:11.840 --> 00:31:12.040 you know. 00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:16.480 So like what, what I'm hearing, what I'm seeing, and by the way, you said this earlier, but 00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:20.360 there's all sorts of links in the show notes, the services, and some of the things that they're 00:31:20.360 --> 00:31:21.120 doing as a team. 00:31:21.300 --> 00:31:25.960 So if you're listening on, on audio, on podcasts, you need to go like click over and kind of check 00:31:25.960 --> 00:31:28.640 the way that this church operates in their services. 00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:30.860 They're thinking outside of the box. 00:31:31.740 --> 00:31:33.480 How'd you, how'd you get there? 00:31:33.940 --> 00:31:39.920 Like even the idea of, okay, yeah, the guy said no to hanging upside down like a bat. 00:31:40.040 --> 00:31:40.300 Okay. 00:31:40.600 --> 00:31:41.640 That, that's pretty radical. 00:31:41.780 --> 00:31:45.120 I've seen a lot of radical things that have been accepted. 00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:48.500 So like, what's the DNA journey, the path? 00:31:48.580 --> 00:31:50.880 You've been involved with the church for a while, it seems. 00:31:51.160 --> 00:31:55.100 So how did you, how did this environment come in place? 00:31:55.220 --> 00:31:56.860 You know, you don't see this in a lot of churches. 00:31:56.960 --> 00:32:03.740 Well, I think, you know, some of it is a bunch of people that are just really wired to push 00:32:03.740 --> 00:32:04.740 themselves, right? 00:32:04.820 --> 00:32:09.260 Like I was saying, and get bored with doing the same thing over and over again. 00:32:09.520 --> 00:32:14.520 And, and it's a dynamic, like our leadership is the same kind of thing where they're, they're 00:32:14.520 --> 00:32:16.940 more aggressive than, than we are in a lot of cases. 00:32:16.940 --> 00:32:23.160 Like, I don't know, a lot of times I've presented an idea to a group of the, like that, the leadership 00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:24.300 or the board at our church. 00:32:24.300 --> 00:32:28.560 And they're like, cool, here's four times that now go make it better. 00:32:28.560 --> 00:32:31.320 And, and, and, and like get four times the return, you know? 00:32:31.400 --> 00:32:37.420 So, uh, we really have a culture of entrepreneurship and new, you know, trying new things. 00:32:37.780 --> 00:32:42.540 And it's just an awareness of like, it's not just because of, I don't know, cause it sounds 00:32:42.540 --> 00:32:44.300 fun or that would be, that would be neat. 00:32:44.300 --> 00:32:51.700 It's because the general church is in decline and church work is like, it's just harder 00:32:51.700 --> 00:32:56.800 than, I mean, I I've worked outside, you know, like in agencies and all that kind of thing, 00:32:56.820 --> 00:32:58.300 you know, for half of my career. 00:32:58.600 --> 00:33:03.360 And it's just harder inside because the church is in decline, less and less people are just 00:33:03.360 --> 00:33:04.420 even open to it. 00:33:04.500 --> 00:33:10.900 And so if you really believe that this is, um, this is what we're called to do. 00:33:10.900 --> 00:33:15.320 And that this is, um, this is, you know, people are separated from God and they need to know 00:33:15.320 --> 00:33:18.940 God, then wouldn't you do everything you possibly could to do it? 00:33:19.040 --> 00:33:24.080 And so that's, that's the kind of mindset that we have, you know, where it's, um, yeah, 00:33:24.120 --> 00:33:28.700 it's just the video shoot, but man, someone could meet Jesus this weekend because of that. 00:33:28.780 --> 00:33:34.480 And, and it's a little harder every week just because culture is shifting the exact other 00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:40.220 way or, um, political sentiment or any of that kind of stuff, you know, it's just, 00:33:40.540 --> 00:33:44.040 so we're, we're, we're like salmon swimming against the tide, you know? 00:33:44.040 --> 00:33:50.460 Um, and so anyway, there there's, so there's already that recognize that you already recognize 00:33:50.460 --> 00:33:51.000 that, right. 00:33:51.140 --> 00:33:53.220 But then it's still a huge process. 00:33:53.220 --> 00:33:57.780 I mean, you've talked with Matt Welty and him talking about all the digital products and 00:33:57.780 --> 00:34:00.700 the stuff we make, I'm sure talking about the app and all that kind of thing. 00:34:00.700 --> 00:34:04.540 And I mean, that's been a five, six year journey as well, you know? 00:34:04.540 --> 00:34:10.240 So it starts with like little nuggets and, and I appreciate the pushback that leadership 00:34:10.240 --> 00:34:13.200 has initially because it's like, they have a lot at stake. 00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:14.660 They have a lot of people they're caring for. 00:34:14.660 --> 00:34:21.700 And as well as like limited resources to do, like everything that we're doing looks kind 00:34:21.700 --> 00:34:24.740 of like a big deal, but we're always just trying to squeeze the most we can out of it. 00:34:24.780 --> 00:34:28.100 If we have a $10,000 budget, let's make it look like it's a $30,000 budget. 00:34:28.100 --> 00:34:28.340 Right. 00:34:28.340 --> 00:34:34.220 So we're always pushing, always trying to do that and, you know, scarce resources, no 00:34:34.220 --> 00:34:34.820 matter where you are. 00:34:35.040 --> 00:34:37.380 And I appreciate them pushing back. 00:34:37.460 --> 00:34:40.480 So it's just been taking time to like build trust and get little wins. 00:34:40.480 --> 00:34:45.680 Like, that's why I said, like, it's like our 35th episode that we jumped into when at the 00:34:45.680 --> 00:34:50.200 beginning of COVID, cause we had some reps and it wasn't like, guys, what if we did this 00:34:50.200 --> 00:34:50.860 crazy thing? 00:34:50.860 --> 00:34:52.260 It's like, Hey, remember the thing we've been doing? 00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:53.220 What if we just kept doing that? 00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:53.460 You know? 00:34:53.460 --> 00:34:56.740 So everything is an incremental step, you know? 00:34:56.740 --> 00:35:02.200 Like the version of the app that Matt is working on is like version 50 of it. 00:35:02.220 --> 00:35:03.060 I don't know, you know? 00:35:03.120 --> 00:35:04.700 And so it just keeps getting better and better. 00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:07.480 There's no such thing as the overnight success. 00:35:07.580 --> 00:35:13.720 I remember seeing some artists win a Grammy of the year or like best new artist for a best 00:35:13.720 --> 00:35:17.180 new artist Grammy for her seventh album or something like that. 00:35:17.200 --> 00:35:18.320 And that's just kind of how it works. 00:35:18.360 --> 00:35:20.220 You know, you just got to keep, keep plugging away. 00:35:20.680 --> 00:35:24.840 So kind of take us into the nuggets that you're kind of thinking through as far as like 00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:25.440 what's next. 00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:29.300 And you don't have to give us like the full painted future, but there's obviously some 00:35:29.300 --> 00:35:33.420 things in the hopper that you're like, all right, this is where we're going next based 00:35:33.420 --> 00:35:37.760 off of what we've seen in this season, because reopening will happen, all sorts of things. 00:35:37.820 --> 00:35:40.660 And so I can only imagine just kind of what's baking in there coming up. 00:35:40.980 --> 00:35:41.100 Yeah. 00:35:41.260 --> 00:35:46.880 Well, a couple of the things on our minds, um, well, reopening is definitely one. 00:35:47.080 --> 00:35:52.100 So October 4th, we are going to go back to a limited reopening with some of our sites. 00:35:52.940 --> 00:35:55.080 And so there's big implications with that. 00:35:55.080 --> 00:35:59.440 You know, we've been pulling site resources to do the extra work that we've been doing. 00:35:59.840 --> 00:36:03.840 And so it's, it's not all just like what creatively what's going to happen, but it's more like 00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:06.340 logistically what, what can happen, you know? 00:36:06.580 --> 00:36:13.640 And so, you know, we're thinking now about still creating the online experience that we do. 00:36:14.220 --> 00:36:18.520 And rather than going the, you know, what we used to do is we were a physical church that 00:36:18.520 --> 00:36:19.700 had an online presence. 00:36:19.700 --> 00:36:24.820 And now it's really thinking more like we make online experiences and then also have live 00:36:24.820 --> 00:36:26.040 expressions of that. 00:36:26.120 --> 00:36:29.980 So, you know, we make the online one first because of the timeline for it, you know? 00:36:30.820 --> 00:36:35.720 And so thinking about when we come back, we're going to obviously the same content online and 00:36:35.720 --> 00:36:42.820 live, but really splitting the teams, uh, more and splitting the, the kinds of experiences, 00:36:42.820 --> 00:36:47.700 even though you would hopefully get the same biblical truth out of it, maybe even sing 00:36:47.700 --> 00:36:52.620 one of the same songs or something, but it's gotta be an experience that's made for that 00:36:52.620 --> 00:36:55.540 environment, which actually is really great. 00:36:55.640 --> 00:36:58.040 It's more work, but it's freeing, you know? 00:36:58.180 --> 00:37:03.140 I mean, I was looking, you know, some of the questions you guys were asking up front, like, 00:37:03.240 --> 00:37:04.960 how do you even get started with this? 00:37:05.020 --> 00:37:08.560 And I think the key is, it's so simple. 00:37:08.700 --> 00:37:09.860 It's stupid simple. 00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:13.860 It's, the key is always like, who's your audience and what's your objective? 00:37:14.360 --> 00:37:20.460 And the more specific you can get with both of those, the more chance you have of succeeding, 00:37:20.620 --> 00:37:20.840 right? 00:37:20.920 --> 00:37:25.480 So if you, and, and, and then when you have, but when you have two audiences and two objectives, 00:37:25.480 --> 00:37:31.820 then suddenly you're trying to make this like, I don't know, like some amphibious car, that's 00:37:31.820 --> 00:37:34.080 just a crappy boat and a crappy car, you know? 00:37:34.140 --> 00:37:38.940 And so, uh, the, getting the clarity right now that we have, like, we are making a digital 00:37:38.940 --> 00:37:41.240 thing and we are making a live thing. 00:37:41.240 --> 00:37:46.880 And they're both, they both have a really strong suits in these areas and let's hit those versus 00:37:46.880 --> 00:37:48.420 trying to make something that works for everybody. 00:37:48.800 --> 00:37:49.160 Yeah. 00:37:49.180 --> 00:37:51.440 You just said something I was, I wasn't aware of. 00:37:51.480 --> 00:37:53.680 So let's, let's back up and we'll, we'll, we'll get back to that. 00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:55.700 You guys were kind of clear. 00:37:55.760 --> 00:38:00.160 You're one of the front runners, um, back in, I don't know, June, July, August, North 00:38:00.160 --> 00:38:01.960 Point announced, Hey, we're done for 2020. 00:38:02.340 --> 00:38:03.440 Pick it up in 2021. 00:38:03.660 --> 00:38:04.380 See how it's at. 00:38:04.520 --> 00:38:08.700 You guys kind of like the next week, as I recall, Hey, we're done for 2020 as well. 00:38:09.320 --> 00:38:12.400 And so now, you know, I don't want to say you're backtracking because it's 2020. 00:38:12.580 --> 00:38:13.420 You're allowed to experiment. 00:38:13.740 --> 00:38:13.860 Yeah. 00:38:13.940 --> 00:38:17.020 I can't tell you how many churches have said something and then had to take it back. 00:38:17.200 --> 00:38:17.360 Yeah. 00:38:17.400 --> 00:38:19.640 Like walk me through some of the mentality. 00:38:19.640 --> 00:38:23.280 Cause a lot of churches were like, ah, they're not, they're not doing anything, but you guys 00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:24.220 are starting to meet. 00:38:24.220 --> 00:38:28.860 So like, what's the, what's the framework, the mental mindset with where you guys are? 00:38:28.860 --> 00:38:33.580 I think the mental mindset is our main goal is to minister to people. 00:38:33.960 --> 00:38:38.280 And there are more and more people that are just hurting for their church. 00:38:39.040 --> 00:38:43.680 Uh, and I know that a weekend service is not the full expression of church, but that's a 00:38:43.680 --> 00:38:48.120 cadence in a year that has lost all cadence that they miss. 00:38:48.120 --> 00:38:54.080 And so thinking about how can we help, um, help, help them, you know, how can we, I, you know, 00:38:54.080 --> 00:38:58.840 one of the things we talk about is when Sunday comes, we get to be water to people. 00:38:58.860 --> 00:39:00.360 They're dry their whole week. 00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:01.060 It just sucks. 00:39:01.060 --> 00:39:05.080 The guys, uh, the random guy is marriage is in trouble. 00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:06.340 His kids hate him. 00:39:06.460 --> 00:39:07.600 He doesn't like his job. 00:39:07.600 --> 00:39:09.680 Like he's just gotten the crap beat out of them all week. 00:39:10.140 --> 00:39:14.480 We get to like be this guide to the Holy spirit and to Jesus. 00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:18.860 And like God, the father of like that, he's not going to get anywhere else. 00:39:18.920 --> 00:39:19.580 That's amazing. 00:39:19.580 --> 00:39:20.140 That's wonderful. 00:39:20.140 --> 00:39:26.460 So getting to be water, um, the more, more water we can be, the better, you know? 00:39:26.460 --> 00:39:31.900 And I mean, even to that point you were talking about, um, or while we were, I was talking 00:39:31.900 --> 00:39:36.840 about cadence, you know, uh, that's one of the tough things about the digital thing is 00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:40.140 that there's, it's, I don't know, today is just day. 00:39:40.280 --> 00:39:41.860 I don't know what day even is it, you know? 00:39:41.860 --> 00:39:48.420 So we've, we've struggled to like push, uh, like promote the weekends and do all that 00:39:48.420 --> 00:39:51.720 because I think people's rhythms have started to fall off a little bit. 00:39:51.720 --> 00:39:55.160 And so just like I said, like church work is always hard. 00:39:55.160 --> 00:39:57.560 It's just like, it's always, everything's falling away. 00:39:57.560 --> 00:40:02.220 Like, and you got to put extra effort to, to help maintain it, you know? 00:40:02.220 --> 00:40:06.080 And so that's one of the things we've had to do is like figure out new ways to promote 00:40:06.080 --> 00:40:10.320 it, whether it's on our social or whatever, just remind people, like stay in the cadence, 00:40:10.420 --> 00:40:11.720 you know, this is, this is good. 00:40:11.840 --> 00:40:13.360 This is, um, this is a great thing. 00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:16.680 But anyway, that's, that's ministering to people. 00:40:16.760 --> 00:40:17.720 That's mainly the reason. 00:40:18.180 --> 00:40:24.060 So you, you've got this, this wrestle of thinking, uh, screen first, digital first is some of 00:40:24.060 --> 00:40:27.320 the language we've used on the podcast, continuing that. 00:40:27.320 --> 00:40:32.460 And now you're feeling, or you will be feeling the pain point of, oh man, I got to do a live 00:40:32.460 --> 00:40:37.820 as well as, as, as, as a, as a digital where if, if you're like the typical church right 00:40:37.820 --> 00:40:43.420 now in America that is meeting 30% of the, the people are coming back to the building seems 00:40:43.420 --> 00:40:47.860 to be the average 70% are, are not engaging physically. 00:40:47.860 --> 00:40:51.860 They're still digital for whatever reason, if they're still engaged, or maybe we as the 00:40:51.860 --> 00:40:52.660 church, we've lost them. 00:40:52.680 --> 00:40:57.420 It's, it's, it's hard to tell statistically speaking right now, but I'm, I'm just curious, 00:40:57.420 --> 00:41:01.940 like, you know, I'm, I'm watching a service, uh, right now, kind of in the screen going on 00:41:01.940 --> 00:41:02.540 on the side. 00:41:02.540 --> 00:41:07.960 I'm watching Brian, uh, lead pastor walking around what it seems to be like a high school 00:41:07.960 --> 00:41:09.600 football locker room. 00:41:09.600 --> 00:41:11.120 And, and he's doing that expression. 00:41:11.320 --> 00:41:13.440 He's actually doing communion right now. 00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:17.960 That's in a very, um, old kind of chapel church. 00:41:17.960 --> 00:41:19.300 There's stained glass in there. 00:41:19.360 --> 00:41:23.040 And so you've created these beautiful digital expressions. 00:41:23.040 --> 00:41:27.480 Now, how much of those digital expressions are going to be seen in the physical location? 00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:29.400 Like what's, what's the balance? 00:41:29.460 --> 00:41:31.040 Is it entirely live? 00:41:31.040 --> 00:41:34.040 And you're creating two completely separate experiences. 00:41:34.040 --> 00:41:39.020 Is there any bleed over kind of what's the relationship between the live and the physical, 00:41:39.260 --> 00:41:41.860 at least where you think you're going to be here in October? 00:41:41.860 --> 00:41:45.640 Well, we, we talked about that and kind of came up with four options. 00:41:45.640 --> 00:41:49.140 There's the two extremes that are play the video in the room. 00:41:49.300 --> 00:41:49.580 Great. 00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:50.480 It's fine. 00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:54.200 Uh, or have the guy teach live or the woman teach live. 00:41:54.620 --> 00:41:57.060 Uh, and then there's a couple of different hybrids. 00:41:57.060 --> 00:42:02.880 There's one that could be play the video, but have the, the, the site pastor, the campus pastor 00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:07.100 introduce it or add their tag on the end or personalize it in some way. 00:42:07.100 --> 00:42:10.440 So there's still a live only in this room kind of thing that you get. 00:42:10.740 --> 00:42:16.660 And then, uh, another one would be have, have the teacher teach live, but use any portion 00:42:16.660 --> 00:42:19.600 that you're like, oh man, you're not going to get that on a stage, you know, and show 00:42:19.600 --> 00:42:22.080 that like, for example, the, the wake surfing, right? 00:42:22.140 --> 00:42:24.580 So like maybe show that as the intro. 00:42:24.660 --> 00:42:28.460 You could even put that in a different spot in the service as like a teaser into the rest 00:42:28.460 --> 00:42:29.120 of the teaching. 00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:33.680 So we, you know, we debated all this stuff and like, you know, we got these options. 00:42:33.720 --> 00:42:36.080 Let's try it a different way each week and play with it. 00:42:36.120 --> 00:42:41.700 And so that's really where we're, um, where we're going, uh, is, is just continuing to 00:42:41.700 --> 00:42:45.880 experiment with it and see, see what works and how people respond to it, you know? 00:42:45.880 --> 00:42:50.860 So speaking of the fact that I'm watching a service in real time, I wanted to ask this 00:42:50.860 --> 00:42:55.420 and, and I've, I've been, I've seen it before, but why do you put the capo guitar patterns 00:42:55.420 --> 00:42:56.340 on the screen? 00:42:56.340 --> 00:43:01.240 Is, is the goal during worship is the goal for people to like play along at home? 00:43:01.240 --> 00:43:05.780 And so you incorporating kind of a physical as well as video worship experience? 00:43:05.940 --> 00:43:06.680 Yeah, absolutely. 00:43:06.940 --> 00:43:12.760 I mean, I think, I don't think we've, we've a hundred percent cracked the code on what is 00:43:12.760 --> 00:43:15.680 online worship music look like. 00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:18.080 I think we're doing as well as anybody is out there. 00:43:18.180 --> 00:43:21.500 It's not so much that we're not doing everything that we can. 00:43:21.560 --> 00:43:27.020 It's just, I think it as much has to do with the fact that culture never sings. 00:43:27.180 --> 00:43:31.740 You know, you might sing at a concert, you might sing at church, but historically humanity 00:43:31.740 --> 00:43:32.620 sings together. 00:43:32.620 --> 00:43:36.560 You go to a bar and you sing or the pub or whatever, or you sing before battle. 00:43:36.740 --> 00:43:37.980 And we just don't have that. 00:43:38.040 --> 00:43:40.360 So people aren't conditioned to sit in front of the TV and watch it. 00:43:40.460 --> 00:43:46.000 So trying to do everything that we can to engage people and, you know, give them, give 00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:47.500 them a reason to pick up their guitar. 00:43:47.660 --> 00:43:51.400 Cause that can be a whole, you know, that could be, I know me personally being a musician, 00:43:51.400 --> 00:43:56.900 I can act musically in a whole different way if I have a, you know, a piano or a guitar 00:43:56.900 --> 00:43:57.740 or something with me. 00:43:57.840 --> 00:44:02.780 And so I think it also takes a little bit more out of performance-y mode, which can be the 00:44:02.780 --> 00:44:05.920 downfall of a lot of modern worship stuff. 00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:09.400 Even if it's well-intentioned, people just look at it and they're like, oh, those guys 00:44:09.400 --> 00:44:10.440 look like rock stars or whatever. 00:44:10.540 --> 00:44:14.920 So the more, the more we can indicate, like this is meant to be a communal thing. 00:44:14.960 --> 00:44:16.800 Like let's all do this together, the better. 00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:18.220 Yeah, I love that. 00:44:18.300 --> 00:44:20.800 I've never, never thought of it, but even as you're doing microlocation, 00:44:21.400 --> 00:44:26.440 as house church and you're trying to incorporate live environments along with, with the digital 00:44:26.440 --> 00:44:31.280 and create, we use the term digital a lot here on the podcast, physical plus digital combining 00:44:31.280 --> 00:44:31.700 of it. 00:44:31.880 --> 00:44:36.620 Like, you know, creating that, that, that expression, that environment is, is beautiful. 00:44:37.100 --> 00:44:42.320 Have you guys toyed with creatively, you know, I mean, biblical, biblically worship is just, 00:44:42.920 --> 00:44:46.080 musical worship is just one method of, of worship. 00:44:46.080 --> 00:44:50.340 Have you toyed with, do you kind of pull the thread and explore, you know, some of, some 00:44:50.340 --> 00:44:55.640 of the others, maybe what is that other methods of creative worship, quote unquote, what does 00:44:55.640 --> 00:44:57.020 that look like for, for Crossroads? 00:44:57.220 --> 00:45:02.160 You mean like, like sacrificing a goat or whatever, or what exactly, what exactly are you thinking 00:45:02.160 --> 00:45:02.400 about? 00:45:02.520 --> 00:45:05.360 Spoken word testimonies, prayer moments. 00:45:05.720 --> 00:45:06.440 I mean, sure. 00:45:06.440 --> 00:45:10.120 If you've got a good goat story, I'm willing, but there's, there's plenty of other references 00:45:10.120 --> 00:45:10.920 other than the goat. 00:45:11.300 --> 00:45:12.940 There might be some blowback for that. 00:45:12.940 --> 00:45:20.480 You know, so one of the things that we're constantly adjusting with the, the service mix or the 00:45:20.480 --> 00:45:25.720 service, the liturgy, you might say, is what are the elements that we put into it? 00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:30.680 And the, the big limit that we had early on was that we were first making it for TV because 00:45:30.680 --> 00:45:31.660 that was the hardest constraint. 00:45:31.820 --> 00:45:35.320 So we had 28 minutes and 30 seconds to get in and get out. 00:45:35.460 --> 00:45:37.240 And so that we had to cut stuff. 00:45:37.280 --> 00:45:41.120 And then we had a, like a longer online version, but now that we've kind of flipped it and we 00:45:41.120 --> 00:45:46.400 say our online version, the thing on crossroads.net, the thing on all our Apple TV app, all the, 00:45:46.400 --> 00:45:50.400 like are on the phone app or any of that stuff is the first is what we have. 00:45:50.480 --> 00:45:52.700 Now we have about 45 minutes. 00:45:52.700 --> 00:45:54.880 And so that gives us more space. 00:45:54.880 --> 00:45:58.520 And you'll, so you'll start to see trickling in over the next month or so back to the stuff 00:45:58.520 --> 00:46:05.380 that we've done before, like stories or like a performance song or more like a, you know, 00:46:05.380 --> 00:46:08.460 like a immersive prayer moment that we might do. 00:46:08.640 --> 00:46:14.840 And, you know, we, we, like I said, we haven't fully figured out the medium, but we're just 00:46:14.840 --> 00:46:16.540 taking continual steps in that way. 00:46:16.580 --> 00:46:19.940 And, you know, one of the things we did like imaginative prayer, I don't know if you guys 00:46:19.940 --> 00:46:21.980 have ever done any of that kind of thing. 00:46:21.980 --> 00:46:26.400 You know, you like, you imagine that God's in the room or you're talking to Jesus and 00:46:26.400 --> 00:46:26.680 do all that. 00:46:26.760 --> 00:46:31.920 We did that during one of the weeks of the series way back, like in April. 00:46:32.320 --> 00:46:36.840 And so we've incorporated some of that stuff, but we've been kind of bare bones worship and 00:46:36.840 --> 00:46:39.440 teaching with that time constraint. 00:46:39.540 --> 00:46:43.460 And so now we're starting to expand it a little bit more, but definitely more stories, more. 00:46:43.620 --> 00:46:51.440 And, you know, another thing I'd say about worship is it's, you know, it can be expressed 00:46:51.440 --> 00:46:56.820 by, I think if there's a defining thing about Crossroads, even more than just kind of creativity 00:46:56.820 --> 00:47:00.960 about, you know, within the orthodoxy of this is a Jesus believing church, what's the unique 00:47:00.960 --> 00:47:03.980 thing about it is our ability to mobilize, you know? 00:47:04.180 --> 00:47:13.680 And so when we do these recap videos of this group of people that made 3000 masks in a day or, you 00:47:13.680 --> 00:47:18.960 know, us going and serving the hospital staff, you know, in the midst of the very beginning 00:47:18.960 --> 00:47:25.340 of lockdown or, you know, us serving cops and protesters in the midst of some of the things 00:47:25.340 --> 00:47:31.060 going on around here, that's as much worship as anything, you know, and that stuff's really 00:47:31.060 --> 00:47:34.660 beautiful and it's like boots on the ground worship, you know? 00:47:34.840 --> 00:47:42.520 So we always like that being a component of what we, you know, what we present a Crossroads 00:47:42.520 --> 00:47:43.380 weekend to look like. 00:47:43.940 --> 00:47:48.180 One of the things that I love all of that, by the way, it was beautiful and not a goat 00:47:48.180 --> 00:47:48.920 story to be heard. 00:47:49.200 --> 00:47:50.500 So we're heading in the right direction. 00:47:50.500 --> 00:47:53.580 Not yet, but maybe you asked what's too crazy of a story. 00:47:54.280 --> 00:47:55.360 Check back with me. 00:47:55.680 --> 00:47:55.780 Yeah. 00:47:57.140 --> 00:47:58.240 There's something baking there. 00:47:58.280 --> 00:47:59.200 We'll have to come back to it. 00:47:59.240 --> 00:48:01.260 I'll email you when I come up with something. 00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:02.880 We'll, we'll experiment with, with you. 00:48:03.280 --> 00:48:08.100 Hey, um, like one of the things that, that the services that I've seen, they seem to be 00:48:08.100 --> 00:48:12.960 very focused on, and, and I hesitate to use the word call to action because I don't want 00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:17.260 to make this a marketing thing, but there, they seem to be focused towards driving people 00:48:17.260 --> 00:48:19.160 to a, to a place. 00:48:19.160 --> 00:48:23.860 Like I've seen, you know, vision videos kind of at the beginning of the service, your, your 00:48:23.860 --> 00:48:26.940 positioning teaching for the most part, it seems to be teachings. 00:48:26.940 --> 00:48:29.000 More up at the front, worship on the backside. 00:48:29.460 --> 00:48:34.260 And, and even with the teaching, there seems to be like a focused towards a teaching that 00:48:34.260 --> 00:48:38.880 follows with a connect to the guides to get connected into the discipleship. 00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:44.700 There, there is intentionality with how you are crafting the services where all the things 00:48:44.700 --> 00:48:49.840 seem to drive towards that call to action where you're trying to get people to take next 00:48:49.840 --> 00:48:50.240 steps. 00:48:50.760 --> 00:48:50.820 Yeah. 00:48:50.860 --> 00:48:53.160 Does that, is that come intentional? 00:48:53.380 --> 00:48:59.180 Does that, is it intentional where like, that's the beginning of the conversation or is the 00:48:59.180 --> 00:49:03.400 service crafted and kind of the call to action is the, is the last step? 00:49:03.460 --> 00:49:03.660 Okay. 00:49:03.660 --> 00:49:05.140 What can we kind of squeeze in here? 00:49:05.320 --> 00:49:09.900 Maybe talk about that level of crafting leading towards the call to action. 00:49:10.040 --> 00:49:10.220 Yeah. 00:49:10.300 --> 00:49:13.640 It depends on the week and it depends on the time of year. 00:49:15.200 --> 00:49:21.360 We, we've put a rough schedule together for the whole year to say, we know that in January 00:49:21.360 --> 00:49:26.220 or February, and then once again, in September and October, those are our group seasons and 00:49:26.220 --> 00:49:33.120 understanding that, you know, getting in community is a first step towards true discipleship, you 00:49:33.120 --> 00:49:38.200 know, and in a big church where it's really easy just to sit and watch the stream or sit 00:49:38.200 --> 00:49:40.860 in the back row or whatever, what's the next step? 00:49:40.920 --> 00:49:43.660 And so that's where a lot of that stuff starts to come in. 00:49:43.740 --> 00:49:48.880 And occasionally there might be something like a challenge for giving or, you know, like we 00:49:48.880 --> 00:49:55.440 have a 90 day tithe testing that we do, um, that's, you know, 90 days of God blessing your 00:49:55.440 --> 00:49:56.880 life or your money back kind of thing. 00:49:56.880 --> 00:50:01.380 And it's, it's actually worked out really well as we teach the principle of tithing, you know? 00:50:01.520 --> 00:50:07.400 And so sometimes it's, that's the, we need to make sure that we're getting people to like 00:50:07.400 --> 00:50:11.340 sign up for a group or sign up for the journey or sign up for a guide. 00:50:11.340 --> 00:50:16.120 And most of the time that stuff is purely for their benefit, you know, purely for the sake 00:50:16.120 --> 00:50:16.800 of their growth. 00:50:17.380 --> 00:50:21.100 Um, well, I guess it always should be, you know, occasionally there's like, well, we're 00:50:21.100 --> 00:50:26.080 trying to hit a strategic thing or whatever, you know, but, um, but it's always to, you 00:50:26.080 --> 00:50:26.780 know, to help people. 00:50:26.780 --> 00:50:31.440 And a lot of times with like additional burden to us, the more they do like the, the guide 00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:34.180 thing, you know, you, you mentioned the whole spiritual outfitter idea. 00:50:34.640 --> 00:50:40.520 Um, we recently went through this whole rebrand exercise where we just thought like, well, how 00:50:40.520 --> 00:50:44.920 can we reframe the crossroads is what we are, what we do. 00:50:45.340 --> 00:50:47.740 And that's where the spiritual outfitter came through, came from. 00:50:47.840 --> 00:50:54.120 And one of the, one of the big components about that is the concept of guides, which is, it's 00:50:54.120 --> 00:50:58.460 not necessarily like a full on discipling relationship, but it's just the idea that at a big church, 00:50:58.460 --> 00:51:01.120 it's easy to be like, where do I even begin? 00:51:01.120 --> 00:51:06.240 You know, and so we thought the easiest way is just to connect people with actual humans 00:51:06.240 --> 00:51:07.440 who can be like, how are you doing? 00:51:07.700 --> 00:51:09.000 Let's check in every month. 00:51:09.120 --> 00:51:12.460 And I have a general idea of what's going on here. 00:51:12.460 --> 00:51:17.440 So I can show you kind of, these are the tools that we have in our tool belt for you to grow 00:51:17.440 --> 00:51:18.180 closer to God. 00:51:18.240 --> 00:51:20.860 And so, um, that's the kind of thing. 00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:23.940 It's like the more people who do guides, the more work it is for us, you know, but it's 00:51:23.940 --> 00:51:24.080 good. 00:51:24.300 --> 00:51:29.800 But so when we're not doing those, I just think, like I said, mobilization, we have a bent 00:51:29.800 --> 00:51:33.200 towards like, cool, nice service. 00:51:33.760 --> 00:51:35.240 What does it mean on Tuesday for you? 00:51:35.300 --> 00:51:38.400 You know, like get people to actually put their faith into action. 00:51:38.400 --> 00:51:42.880 And so some of that's just in the DNA of always having, have trying to have some call to action 00:51:42.880 --> 00:51:46.300 no matter what it is to put your faith into action or test it. 00:51:46.820 --> 00:51:47.260 I love that. 00:51:47.300 --> 00:51:49.500 And we're going to be kind of scratching the surface. 00:51:49.760 --> 00:51:54.500 The guides that, that you guys, I've, I've heard, um, Greg Ackerman, uh, in separate 00:51:54.500 --> 00:51:56.580 conversations, gone into great detail. 00:51:56.960 --> 00:51:59.240 Uh, Greg's been on the podcast here as well. 00:51:59.420 --> 00:52:02.920 Uh, recent, I don't know how recently, maybe within the past, in the COVID season, it was 00:52:02.920 --> 00:52:04.880 on talking about some things. 00:52:04.880 --> 00:52:09.460 And, uh, we're actually going to have, uh, Joey Santos, who's up in your area, our Christ 00:52:09.460 --> 00:52:14.560 church over in Mason, Ohio, um, is, is going to be there doing some interesting things on 00:52:14.560 --> 00:52:15.000 the guides. 00:52:15.000 --> 00:52:17.880 And so a similar concept to what you guys are doing with the guides. 00:52:17.880 --> 00:52:21.540 So we'll, we'll dig more into that in, in, in a, in a future podcast, but I'm curious 00:52:21.540 --> 00:52:28.280 with this, even just as we're, we're, we're landing the plane here, um, tips, um, tricks. 00:52:28.380 --> 00:52:33.900 Hey, like there are advice, feedback, consulting there, there are churches out there that are 00:52:33.900 --> 00:52:36.240 thinking, Hey, we need to be more creative. 00:52:36.840 --> 00:52:42.520 Um, senior leadership's not feeling this senior leadership's not seeing this, uh, our, our pastor, 00:52:42.520 --> 00:52:46.520 there is no way he's going to get on a wakeboard and preach a sermon while the boats go in 20 00:52:46.520 --> 00:52:47.060 miles an hour. 00:52:47.280 --> 00:52:50.220 Like, how, how, how do I get started? 00:52:50.560 --> 00:52:52.760 What, what are some, some basic steps? 00:52:52.760 --> 00:52:58.640 How do I kind of break the mold, uh, while still working with leadership and, and, and 00:52:58.640 --> 00:53:02.780 feeling, you know, by, while respecting them and, and their, their approach. 00:53:02.780 --> 00:53:07.280 So give some advices for somebody that kind of wants to take some, some next steps. 00:53:07.280 --> 00:53:09.540 How can they get started, um, on this? 00:53:09.540 --> 00:53:09.740 Yeah. 00:53:10.120 --> 00:53:13.420 I, I mean, all mine are, are pretty, they're pretty vague. 00:53:13.440 --> 00:53:15.860 It's not like you need to buy this camera, you know? 00:53:16.060 --> 00:53:18.880 Um, although, you know, we have, we have some nice cameras. 00:53:19.160 --> 00:53:22.540 I think it really, it's all about the mindset, right? 00:53:22.580 --> 00:53:26.320 Because if you have the right mindset, then you'll figure out the how, right? 00:53:26.420 --> 00:53:34.600 So, you know, I think it starts, like I was saying with target and objective, like who's 00:53:34.600 --> 00:53:36.820 your audience and what's your objective? 00:53:36.920 --> 00:53:37.740 What are you trying to do? 00:53:37.820 --> 00:53:41.500 And I think people just aren't honest enough about it. 00:53:41.540 --> 00:53:44.660 I mean, a random church that's like, we're just here to minister to people and do that. 00:53:44.740 --> 00:53:45.120 Okay, cool. 00:53:45.200 --> 00:53:46.360 Now get more specific with it. 00:53:46.420 --> 00:53:47.140 Challenge yourself. 00:53:47.560 --> 00:53:50.660 What's the specific change and what type of person, you know? 00:53:51.060 --> 00:53:56.940 So for us, it's like, you know, we call it like a, uh, uh, we have kind of a persona 00:53:56.940 --> 00:54:06.020 named Wayne, who's a, uh, young starting his career seeker, which means he's open to spiritual 00:54:06.020 --> 00:54:06.520 stuff. 00:54:06.520 --> 00:54:11.480 He's not necessarily part of the church, um, or have, has church history, but more likely 00:54:11.480 --> 00:54:12.440 than not, he does. 00:54:12.460 --> 00:54:14.040 And this is all based on research that we did. 00:54:14.040 --> 00:54:17.540 And so you don't always have to do that, but just get a clear idea of who? 00:54:17.560 --> 00:54:21.920 Do it as you're going for and build some real empathy for them, you know? 00:54:22.000 --> 00:54:26.200 And then suddenly you might get some insight on like, oh, you know what? 00:54:26.220 --> 00:54:30.960 The thing I just did is super boring to the person I'm trying to reach or it's offensive 00:54:30.960 --> 00:54:32.820 to them or whatever. 00:54:32.940 --> 00:54:36.380 Like, I mean, I think it's really brutal honesty. 00:54:36.380 --> 00:54:42.080 It's really worth, it's worth knowing that, that people aren't nearly as interested in what 00:54:42.080 --> 00:54:43.740 you're making as you are, you know? 00:54:43.840 --> 00:54:47.860 And if you start with that assumption, then you'll work harder to make what you're doing 00:54:47.860 --> 00:54:51.140 really good because they don't care if you're a church or some other thing. 00:54:51.380 --> 00:54:55.800 They're comparing you with whatever else is in their life, you know, and, and you have 00:54:55.800 --> 00:55:03.400 to work as hard as you can and rely on God's grace and mercy to, to approach that in a way 00:55:03.400 --> 00:55:05.920 that like your work isn't so bad, it's distracting. 00:55:05.920 --> 00:55:11.000 So like having just that brutal honesty, I just having been around churches a lot, I would 00:55:11.000 --> 00:55:16.800 say I've just seen way too many churches really proud of themselves versus saying, are we really 00:55:16.800 --> 00:55:22.500 reaching people, you know, and it's, I think it's just, it's true humility is not caring, 00:55:22.640 --> 00:55:25.320 not thinking less of yourself, but thinking of yourself less, you know, you're thinking 00:55:25.320 --> 00:55:26.860 about that person that you're trying to reach. 00:55:28.560 --> 00:55:31.840 And then I, and then it comes down to like, well, what do you uniquely have? 00:55:31.900 --> 00:55:38.320 You know, you might, you know, are you're into collecting, I don't know, like old GI Joes 00:55:38.320 --> 00:55:39.120 or something like that. 00:55:39.180 --> 00:55:42.660 Well, maybe that's not wakeboarding, but that's what you honestly have. 00:55:42.660 --> 00:55:45.600 And if you can honestly be yourself and be excited about it, then sure. 00:55:45.760 --> 00:55:48.260 Somebody's going to find something interesting in that. 00:55:48.340 --> 00:55:54.280 There's always a way to like, people are just interested in passionate people, you know? 00:55:54.420 --> 00:55:56.100 And I don't know. 00:55:56.300 --> 00:55:58.040 Anyway, I'd say like, find the unique thing. 00:55:58.140 --> 00:56:02.720 Don't try and copycat another, another person that inspires you, but just because what they're 00:56:02.720 --> 00:56:03.960 doing is they're finding their voice. 00:56:04.040 --> 00:56:10.180 And how do you find your voice and also connect your voice to what that, that your target is, 00:56:10.180 --> 00:56:11.320 is going after. 00:56:11.760 --> 00:56:13.760 Everything else starts to fall into place, I think. 00:56:13.760 --> 00:56:18.280 Did you say earlier, like the first, one of the first creative services that you guys 00:56:18.280 --> 00:56:22.140 had did online was like an Easter service or a holiday, what was that? 00:56:22.420 --> 00:56:23.220 It was Easter, yeah. 00:56:23.220 --> 00:56:27.360 Like even just wrapping up, like what was, what did that first service look like? 00:56:27.420 --> 00:56:32.100 What were some elements that you did that were digital only versus stage or kind of like that? 00:56:32.100 --> 00:56:34.360 Well, it was, it was really, it wasn't even digital. 00:56:34.540 --> 00:56:35.340 It was just video. 00:56:35.740 --> 00:56:40.640 So it was still made for live experience, but it was using, incorporating video. 00:56:40.820 --> 00:56:44.620 And then it kind of grew because we had a handful of sites at the time. 00:56:44.620 --> 00:56:46.920 And so it was like, how can we scale the preaching? 00:56:47.040 --> 00:56:48.860 So it's digital, but live, right? 00:56:48.900 --> 00:56:52.100 And so it was, it was, it was an Easter service. 00:56:52.100 --> 00:56:56.680 So rather than it just being like three songs and then announcements and then a message, 00:56:56.680 --> 00:56:59.460 it was a whole experience that we tied together. 00:56:59.460 --> 00:57:05.200 And so there was, you know, a song up front that was moody and had some, you know, LED background 00:57:05.200 --> 00:57:06.100 kind of stuff or whatever. 00:57:06.100 --> 00:57:10.880 And then Brian came up and taught from one of his kind of metaphor locations. 00:57:10.880 --> 00:57:13.240 And then we'd, we'd move back and forth through it. 00:57:13.240 --> 00:57:17.960 And so it was kind of like teaching five minutes, five minutes of teaching song, five minutes 00:57:17.960 --> 00:57:18.620 teaching song. 00:57:18.620 --> 00:57:24.200 And then, and then I think we did a whole, like this like long scripture reading of the 00:57:24.200 --> 00:57:30.580 Easter story with, with all these kinds of rhythmic, like, like the horse, you know, the 00:57:30.580 --> 00:57:34.660 horse, the, on Palm Sunday, the horse coming in and you can hear the stuff going, but it's 00:57:34.660 --> 00:57:39.720 all like, it's more like stomp than like a, like a Warner brothers cartoon, you know, but 00:57:39.720 --> 00:57:44.220 it's more like this rhythmic thing that all builds this beautiful, like song base and then 00:57:44.220 --> 00:57:46.600 gets to like, were you there when they crucified my Lord? 00:57:46.600 --> 00:57:49.560 And it's just this beautiful emotional retelling of it. 00:57:49.600 --> 00:57:50.580 And then Brian comes back. 00:57:50.640 --> 00:57:55.720 And so there are all these cool creative elements to it that, um, that were meant to be like, 00:57:55.720 --> 00:57:59.740 okay, this is the person in the seat who we know is probably here for the one time this 00:57:59.740 --> 00:57:59.980 year. 00:58:00.160 --> 00:58:04.880 And how can we get them to like experience it when they just think Easter is like, it just 00:58:04.880 --> 00:58:06.340 kind of goes right past them. 00:58:06.460 --> 00:58:08.880 So, um, yeah, I don't know. 00:58:08.900 --> 00:58:12.140 It was probably four teaching segments of five minutes each. 00:58:12.140 --> 00:58:16.100 And then a whole bunch of songs and I don't know, probably communion at the end. 00:58:16.340 --> 00:58:16.820 I don't know. 00:58:16.880 --> 00:58:17.700 It was a long time ago. 00:58:18.160 --> 00:58:22.520 But, you know, even something like, like taking one of those services and doing something creative 00:58:22.520 --> 00:58:26.680 with it, just a, a small step even to do it, you know, on a weekend. 00:58:26.880 --> 00:58:32.320 I, I, and another, one of my churches that I've worked with in my life, that was, we, we 00:58:32.320 --> 00:58:35.320 did a similar thing where it was three, seven minute sermons. 00:58:35.880 --> 00:58:38.400 Um, and we just, Hey, one Sunday, we're going to experiment. 00:58:38.880 --> 00:58:39.040 Yeah. 00:58:39.120 --> 00:58:40.320 It could be awesome. 00:58:40.400 --> 00:58:42.140 It could be a flop, but we're going to give it a shot. 00:58:42.200 --> 00:58:43.040 We're going to see what would happen. 00:58:43.280 --> 00:58:43.940 I think that's right. 00:58:44.020 --> 00:58:49.560 The super practical thing is even if you can't make your whole experience for this new digital 00:58:49.560 --> 00:58:54.560 target kind of person that you're trying to reach, make one segment for them and, and then 00:58:54.560 --> 00:58:59.460 test it and be really real with yourself and say, and, you know, seek feedback and say, 00:58:59.520 --> 00:58:59.980 did it work? 00:59:00.040 --> 00:59:01.700 And yeah, do little bits at a time. 00:59:02.060 --> 00:59:02.420 Absolutely. 00:59:02.960 --> 00:59:03.100 Yeah. 00:59:03.140 --> 00:59:06.940 I'm, I'm watching, you know, service number three that's rolled on my screen while this 00:59:06.940 --> 00:59:07.760 is going in the background. 00:59:07.960 --> 00:59:12.240 I'm now watching, uh, I just blanked on the last name, but you're the, the, the female 00:59:12.240 --> 00:59:13.580 communicator, Allie. 00:59:13.720 --> 00:59:13.920 Yeah. 00:59:14.260 --> 00:59:14.660 Patterson. 00:59:14.780 --> 00:59:18.140 So Patterson, she's, she's literally preaching in a graveyard. 00:59:18.140 --> 00:59:27.020 Like tombstone markers in the background and I can guarantee you like that imagery carries 00:59:27.020 --> 00:59:30.180 more power than, than Allie being, being on stage with that. 00:59:30.240 --> 00:59:31.860 So this, this is, this is just beautiful. 00:59:31.860 --> 00:59:35.320 I love, love the creativity of what you're doing, the thinking outside the box. 00:59:35.780 --> 00:59:38.340 Churches, check out some of their services at Crossroads. 00:59:38.460 --> 00:59:40.640 Not, it's never a comparison. 00:59:40.920 --> 00:59:46.180 It's not copy, carbon copy, clone exactly what they're doing, but start to figure out the 00:59:46.180 --> 00:59:52.400 parts that, that can work for you, uh, and, and, and experiment for all that's good in 00:59:52.400 --> 00:59:52.720 the world. 00:59:53.160 --> 00:59:57.340 Experiment because what we used to know, thank you COVID, we no longer know. 00:59:57.480 --> 01:00:00.920 So we need to learn more to be more effective in the days to come. 01:00:01.020 --> 01:00:07.260 And I guarantee no playbook written pre 2020 can, can be effective for where we are now. 01:00:07.340 --> 01:00:11.340 And so with this experiment, with learning lessons from one another, this is where we 01:00:11.340 --> 01:00:14.320 can start to be more effective in the days to come. 01:00:14.500 --> 01:00:17.000 So, Hey, I want to thank you very much for the time. 01:00:17.080 --> 01:00:18.560 This has been golden. 01:00:18.820 --> 01:00:22.100 Hey Ray, just as we're landing the plane and any closing thoughts on your end? 01:00:22.480 --> 01:00:22.800 Absolutely. 01:00:22.940 --> 01:00:26.400 Craig, as I was digesting everything you were saying, cause there's just so many things to 01:00:26.400 --> 01:00:26.840 unearth there. 01:00:26.920 --> 01:00:29.600 So many things that I'm going to go back and like reevaluate some of the stuff that we're 01:00:29.600 --> 01:00:33.780 doing and asking, are we really considering the person that's receiving this? 01:00:33.780 --> 01:00:38.280 Like the one audience member, cause I think so much of it, you, what you were talking about 01:00:38.280 --> 01:00:40.900 comes down to that in terms of what you're coming into play with. 01:00:41.000 --> 01:00:45.720 And I wish even more churches and more pastors in particular, as they're preparing their messages, 01:00:45.720 --> 01:00:50.960 thought about that one person before they opened up the creative stuff, before they thought 01:00:50.960 --> 01:00:53.780 about some of the other things that we're going to do, because that right there might unearth 01:00:53.780 --> 01:00:59.540 and unlock and maybe even unhinge us from some of our past traditions and have us start 01:00:59.540 --> 01:01:03.140 thinking about, okay, but what's really going to reach this person and thinking through 01:01:03.140 --> 01:01:09.720 how we can, how we can focus on that one person who's coming in for the first time, because 01:01:09.720 --> 01:01:12.500 that's going to change so much of what we do. 01:01:12.500 --> 01:01:17.240 And then on top of that, if we can educate our regular comers, Hey, look, we understand 01:01:17.240 --> 01:01:21.120 that you're here, but the person that we're thinking about is that friend that you're bringing 01:01:21.120 --> 01:01:23.540 with you who doesn't know Jesus this way. 01:01:23.720 --> 01:01:25.820 Some of the creative elements don't offend them. 01:01:26.020 --> 01:01:26.860 They encourage them. 01:01:26.960 --> 01:01:29.480 And they're even more encouraged to bring their friend to come to know 01:01:29.480 --> 01:01:30.460 know Jesus because of it. 01:01:30.900 --> 01:01:31.120 Amen. 01:01:31.320 --> 01:01:31.980 Love, love that. 01:01:32.400 --> 01:01:36.880 You know, using this, this creativity to create that shareable resource that connect people 01:01:36.880 --> 01:01:40.940 with their ones, definitely love kind of that, that path and that, that idea. 01:01:41.040 --> 01:01:42.220 We talk a lot about that here. 01:01:42.620 --> 01:01:47.360 Hey, Craig, as, as we're landing the plane, I mean, this has been awesome, but any closing 01:01:47.360 --> 01:01:47.720 thoughts? 01:01:48.040 --> 01:01:50.580 Here's what I would say to anybody that's listening to this. 01:01:50.580 --> 01:01:56.320 My hope is that you, you take something away here that encourages you, maybe it challenges 01:01:56.320 --> 01:02:02.180 you, but that ultimately you come away with more ideas and you don't come away with, I don't 01:02:02.180 --> 01:02:02.340 know. 01:02:02.420 --> 01:02:04.520 It's easy to, it's easy for us to compare. 01:02:04.640 --> 01:02:09.480 I say that as a creative person who like artists are the most arrogant, insecure people that I've 01:02:09.480 --> 01:02:10.220 ever met, you know? 01:02:10.260 --> 01:02:12.260 And it's because we're always comparing ourselves. 01:02:12.340 --> 01:02:13.120 Do I measure up? 01:02:13.840 --> 01:02:20.500 So my, my, my hope and my prayer for everybody who's listening to this is that they feel that 01:02:20.500 --> 01:02:22.960 there's some bit of inspiration that's coming out of this. 01:02:23.040 --> 01:02:27.540 And, and I would say that that's God speaking to you because he's given you a unique voice 01:02:27.540 --> 01:02:32.000 to speak to the unique people that he's given you to minister to. 01:02:32.120 --> 01:02:37.320 And, and you got to run that down and find out what is your version of, of ministry. 01:02:37.460 --> 01:02:43.420 And, and hopefully some of this is helpful and practical for people, but, um, we're all 01:02:43.420 --> 01:02:48.640 assigned to reach somebody that nobody else is assigned to, you know what I mean? 01:02:48.640 --> 01:02:53.140 And so it's, uh, we, we do our best and, uh, and, and God will be there and he'll fill 01:02:53.140 --> 01:02:53.820 in all those gaps. 01:02:53.820 --> 01:02:55.640 Cause at least that's what he's done with me so far. 01:02:56.020 --> 01:03:00.200 You know, Andy Mage has been on the podcast, you know, I think last week, but, and he rewrote 01:03:00.200 --> 01:03:04.360 a blog in the middle of COVID season for us over at the church digital comparison is the 01:03:04.360 --> 01:03:05.080 thief of joy. 01:03:05.460 --> 01:03:12.360 And so, so often as, as creatives, as, as people who exude our, our gifts spiritually, it's 01:03:12.360 --> 01:03:15.740 very easy to get discouraged when you look at what somebody else is doing. 01:03:15.740 --> 01:03:20.600 I mean, even as a pastor, it's, it's troublesome sometimes to, well, that church is bigger than 01:03:20.600 --> 01:03:20.940 mine. 01:03:20.940 --> 01:03:22.040 And so it's more successful. 01:03:22.040 --> 01:03:25.800 And, and there are lessons that we all can learn a small church from a big church. 01:03:25.800 --> 01:03:27.980 Probably a big church from a, to a small church. 01:03:28.180 --> 01:03:33.760 There are lessons, uh, maybe there's opportunities to, to improve in some area, but it's, it's 01:03:33.760 --> 01:03:36.040 never about the, the comparison of it. 01:03:36.100 --> 01:03:41.040 There's lots of things that are exciting, even from the outside that I can see, um, from, 01:03:41.160 --> 01:03:42.000 from crossroads. 01:03:42.340 --> 01:03:47.300 Uh, but as, as good as your, your services are, honestly, I'm more excited about the lessons 01:03:47.300 --> 01:03:50.740 to learn from the guides than even the creative aspects of it. 01:03:50.740 --> 01:03:55.560 And so it's taking these lessons and, and, and applying it to our churches. 01:03:55.580 --> 01:04:01.300 That can help us improve, not to try to keep up with the Joneses, but to be more effective 01:04:01.300 --> 01:04:03.340 to reach the ones. 01:04:03.340 --> 01:04:07.920 It's, these are all just tools to the end of that disciple making of that evangelism so 01:04:07.920 --> 01:04:12.060 that we can be more effective at a church to create those disciple makers who can go 01:04:12.060 --> 01:04:13.420 and, and reach others. 01:04:13.420 --> 01:04:15.320 And so, uh, Craig, very much. 01:04:15.440 --> 01:04:17.600 Thank you for jumping on this conversation on this podcast. 01:04:17.600 --> 01:04:17.900 Absolutely. 01:04:18.020 --> 01:04:19.040 This has been great. 01:04:19.640 --> 01:04:20.900 Love, love, love the time. 01:04:21.140 --> 01:04:23.820 And, uh, and we're going to wrap for Ray, for Craig. 01:04:23.920 --> 01:04:25.180 This is Jeff with the church digital. 01:04:25.560 --> 01:04:27.460 Thanks for, uh, joining us here today. 01:04:27.520 --> 01:04:28.960 We'll see you next time here on the pod. 01:04:29.020 --> 01:04:29.500 Y'all have a good day.