WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.220 episode 99 of the Church Digital Podcast, powered by Stadia Church Planting. Jeff here. We are one 00:00:06.220 --> 00:00:11.900 week away from the 100th episode here of the Church Digital Podcast, and it's going to be 00:00:11.900 --> 00:00:17.580 crazy. I am super excited to bring the 100th episode to you all. We're going to go back. 00:00:18.060 --> 00:00:21.100 We're going to get in our DeLoreans. We're going to go back in time here a little bit 00:00:21.100 --> 00:00:29.160 and relive a very influential moment in my, Jeff Reed, in my life. And so we're going to 00:00:29.160 --> 00:00:32.660 experience that. If you've listened to the podcast, you may know what I'm talking about. 00:00:32.740 --> 00:00:38.660 We've talked about this moment, this evening at Starbucks. I don't want to go give away too much, 00:00:38.700 --> 00:00:43.120 but we've talked about it a lot here on the show, and we're going to bring back together 00:00:43.120 --> 00:00:48.020 that magic and see, even though we've got people who are going to be guests scattered all across 00:00:48.020 --> 00:00:54.840 the country, see if we can relive that evening at Downtown Disneyland at Starbucks the way, 00:00:54.840 --> 00:01:00.540 oh, look at me. I'm just, I'm giving away so much. I just, I'm going to stop talking about it right 00:01:00.540 --> 00:01:07.100 now. But truthfully, Corey wasn't on my radar. I, a couple of weeks ago, I've been working on this 00:01:07.100 --> 00:01:13.600 other episode where I'm really curious, like how the Holy Spirit is moving through our churches, 00:01:14.100 --> 00:01:19.480 through our digital churches, through our fidgetal churches in this online season. I'm really curious. 00:01:19.960 --> 00:01:26.160 I'm looking for some tangible acts, tangible presence of God through these digital methods. 00:01:26.300 --> 00:01:31.740 So if you've got that, reach out, let, you know, let me know. But aside from even that, like I was in 00:01:31.740 --> 00:01:36.880 a Facebook group and I posted this question, how are we seeing the Holy Spirit move in our churches 00:01:36.880 --> 00:01:43.880 this COVID season? And Corey here replied back. Now the way that Corey replied, I'll be honest, 00:01:43.880 --> 00:01:49.300 left me speechless. Like literally took my words away. I had to like have a moment and pull it together 00:01:49.300 --> 00:01:55.760 because his response was not what I was expecting. I was expecting to hear God did this, God did that, 00:01:55.860 --> 00:02:01.720 you know, and just starting to hear more of how we're seeing the Holy Spirit move. Corey's response 00:02:01.720 --> 00:02:11.000 was simply put, well, 25 people in my church have died as a result of COVID in this season. So yes, 00:02:11.100 --> 00:02:21.480 we've seen God move through the death and losses of our loved ones. And I quickly became speechless. 00:02:21.980 --> 00:02:27.380 Like of all the answers, of all the directions, of all of the thoughts that I was expecting to get, 00:02:27.380 --> 00:02:32.780 that, well, that was not one of them. And so starting to now piece together questions are like, 00:02:33.080 --> 00:02:40.640 how did you, how do you help someone digitally mourn? How do, how do you do a digital funeral? What 00:02:40.640 --> 00:02:45.840 does the grieving process look like? What is 25 funerals in a six month period? I mean, 00:02:45.900 --> 00:02:50.260 essentially that's like one a week almost. Now they had a much more tighter together, 00:02:50.260 --> 00:02:57.380 but how do you culturally as a staff, how do you like care for your staff? What is, what does that do 00:02:57.380 --> 00:03:03.680 to the culture of the church? Like my brain started exploding just at the mere idea of having to go 00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:11.560 through something like this. A church, Grace Community Church in New York area, having to deal with 00:03:11.560 --> 00:03:20.740 something like 25 losses, 25 deaths in this COVID season. Now I want to say upmost and upfront here, 00:03:20.940 --> 00:03:26.380 like I want to be completely respectful with this conversation. I'm not looking for gotcha journalism, 00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:33.500 the political nature of what may or may not be happening. This is not the heart of this. And even 00:03:33.500 --> 00:03:38.220 to the context, this is usually like a digital podcast, but I don't, I don't even really want to 00:03:38.220 --> 00:03:43.900 talk about the digital nature of the technology aspect of this. I really want to get down to the 00:03:43.900 --> 00:03:52.060 heart of how do you pastorally care for somebody that you're not able to touch? How do you help 00:03:52.060 --> 00:03:59.220 someone grieve when you're not able to be in the same room with them? And Corey, who by his own 00:03:59.220 --> 00:04:06.740 definition is relatively new in this digital pastor thing, almost had to become a, a expert in it 00:04:06.740 --> 00:04:13.640 overnight, just over the sheer fact that he had to help so many people in such a unique way than what 00:04:13.640 --> 00:04:19.500 he was probably equipped and trained for in the seminaries and in churches previous to this. So 00:04:19.500 --> 00:04:25.000 it's a fascinating conversation that it has very little to do with technology and much more into 00:04:25.000 --> 00:04:31.800 the heart of what we as a church are called to be in physical space, as well as called to be in 00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:36.960 digital space. And so for the conversation, we're bringing in Corey Deck, one of the campus pastors 00:04:36.960 --> 00:04:43.140 over at Grace Community Church in New York State, and myself, Jeff with the Church Digital and Stadia 00:04:43.140 --> 00:04:48.820 Church Planting, in a conversation that I'm calling Shepherding, Pastoral Care, and Mourning 00:04:48.820 --> 00:04:52.240 Digitally. Okay, everybody, here you go. 00:04:52.700 --> 00:04:57.580 Yeah, maybe even just to start the conversation here, tell us your ministry story, how you ended up, 00:04:57.580 --> 00:05:01.680 your church, what does ministry life look like for you? 00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:09.240 For me, it, you know, started at birth. You know, my dad's a pastor in Florida, and we grew up as 00:05:09.240 --> 00:05:15.640 missionary kids, and we grew up in Africa. So I spent most of my childhood in Johannesburg, 00:05:15.740 --> 00:05:22.460 South Africa, in the, you know, mid to late 90s. So grew up around post-apartheid ministry life 00:05:22.460 --> 00:05:28.900 in Africa, which was an incredibly rich and, you know, just cool time to be in ministry as a family. 00:05:28.900 --> 00:05:34.940 So that kind of informed a lot of how ministry has become for me today. So, you know, I grew up as 00:05:34.940 --> 00:05:39.400 pastor's kid, missionary kid, all the baggage that comes with that, and was convinced I wasn't going 00:05:39.400 --> 00:05:45.800 to be in ministry. And, but God had other plans. You know, I met my beautiful wife, and, you know, 00:05:45.800 --> 00:05:51.700 the burden was just so real. You know, the workers are few. That was so apparent to us. And so it just 00:05:51.700 --> 00:05:58.320 became clear. So I was a youth pastor, love youth ministry, felt God's calling us to do more. And 00:05:58.320 --> 00:06:04.560 that's how we landed in Hudson, in the Hudson Valley. My wife's actually from here. So it was really cool 00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:11.300 aligning some of just our roots here and with what God is doing also through Grace Community Church. 00:06:11.300 --> 00:06:17.000 So it's kind of a long winding road to get to where we are. But I was actually hired at Grace Community 00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:22.620 Church to be the online campus pastor. And that's actually how I first got connected to Jeff. There 00:06:22.620 --> 00:06:27.500 was like, I got hired and they're like, you got to go to this conference. And that's, I went to the 00:06:27.500 --> 00:06:33.200 conference in 2018, the church IT conference. It was awesome. It was like, I was like drinking from 00:06:33.200 --> 00:06:38.440 that well so deep. And so I've been, I haven't been as engaged because ended up the resources weren't 00:06:38.440 --> 00:06:42.300 there in the online church world for us to launch. So I got placed at a physical campus. 00:06:43.880 --> 00:06:48.240 Some cool opportunities for our church opened up. Instead of launching online, we're preparing to 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:53.960 launch a West Point campus at the West Point Military Academy, stuff like that. But online never happened. 00:06:54.720 --> 00:07:00.560 And then three weeks before the government told us to shut down, they were like, oh, we see this coming. 00:07:00.680 --> 00:07:05.540 We should launch online. So that's how, so we launched online just a little bit before, 00:07:05.540 --> 00:07:12.760 like we snuck out just like a week or two. So we had an interesting rocky road being also in New York 00:07:12.760 --> 00:07:18.480 where we shut down fast and hard. So yeah, I hope that answers your question. That was kind of a long 00:07:18.480 --> 00:07:19.080 and winding road. 00:07:19.460 --> 00:07:26.960 Oh, totally. And you know, the CIT and network, church IT. Yeah. I mean, Washington DC in 2018 was 00:07:26.960 --> 00:07:32.740 awesome. 2019, I think it was Kansas City. I was really excited about 2020 in Texas. COVID happened. 00:07:32.740 --> 00:07:39.420 And then it's basically run by a bunch of IT guys. The network is a church staff, IT guys. And in 2020, 00:07:39.420 --> 00:07:45.040 they got really like overloaded with COVID work stuff. And so I think they're doing like some 00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:48.120 regional roundtables and stuff. We'll put a link in the show notes. I'm not actually sure 00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:53.560 what they're doing, but a lot of like the online ministry stuff wasn't as really thick in 2020 this 00:07:53.960 --> 00:07:59.640 has been in the past. But I, you know, I, I love, um, you know, it's the, there's the whole West 00:07:59.640 --> 00:08:05.760 point like that. That's like a really interesting thing. Maybe dig into that on another day, but it 00:08:05.760 --> 00:08:11.340 was, was interesting. Like we, we bumped into each other, you know, just recently where, uh, I was in 00:08:11.340 --> 00:08:15.680 a Facebook group. I don't remember what Facebook group. I posted it in several of them. Uh, but I 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:21.080 basically asked the question, Hey, where are you seeing the Holy spirit move through your church 00:08:21.080 --> 00:08:26.860 in this, in this COVID season? Like I'm not even like church online, you know, sometimes where we 00:08:26.860 --> 00:08:31.180 get so systematic in the approach of it. I really wanted to like, start to pull on this thread of, 00:08:31.300 --> 00:08:35.980 of spiritually what, what's God actually doing? Don't, don't tell me the system or the strategy, 00:08:35.980 --> 00:08:41.220 but what, what are, what are we seeing pastorally and shepherd shepherdly? I don't know if that's a 00:08:41.220 --> 00:08:46.680 word, but what are we seeing as, as we're shepherding our people digitally? There's, there's the 00:08:46.680 --> 00:08:52.720 adverb digitally. And, uh, and you're, you know, I, I've kind of have said it off, off air a couple 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:58.840 of times, but like your, your comment, you know, left me speechless about how your churches has been 00:08:58.840 --> 00:09:05.540 pastoring and shepherding people in the New York area in this COVID season. So maybe just even to 00:09:05.540 --> 00:09:09.520 set it up, Corey, do you want to tell us a little bit of your story and what your church is, has been 00:09:09.520 --> 00:09:14.500 going through? Yeah, absolutely. And, uh, you know, it was so funny. I was, I think I even told you, 00:09:14.520 --> 00:09:19.560 I was in between doing church online, doing, uh, physical campus stuff. Cause we just reopened. It was 00:09:19.560 --> 00:09:24.380 our second Sunday and I have a practice in my day where I'm like, I have to stop and celebrate. And 00:09:24.380 --> 00:09:28.160 if I, you know, if I think of something, I'm going to go check in or message somebody, I have to share 00:09:28.160 --> 00:09:33.320 it. Um, and that's sort of formed out of this story and kind of what our last few months have been for 00:09:33.320 --> 00:09:39.240 us. Um, but I, my wife was like, why did you write it so fast? Cause I wrote, I was like, yeah, we had 00:09:39.240 --> 00:09:44.940 25 plus people pass away in that season in that, in that six months really was more like a three month 00:09:44.940 --> 00:09:52.480 season, um, for us. And so we've been in the church building again now two weeks in a row and, um, 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:56.460 everything feels, you know, I expected, I had a little bit of a sour attitude about it, you know, 00:09:56.460 --> 00:10:00.300 cause of all the restrictions and all the distance. And I just had a feeling it wasn't going to be, 00:10:00.300 --> 00:10:04.920 you know, what I, uh, expected it to be all my years of church production work, you know, 00:10:05.100 --> 00:10:10.380 are rubbing at this idea of reopening with masks and distance and low production, yada, yada. 00:10:10.860 --> 00:10:16.720 And, um, I got into the building and, you know, first worship set, um, some of the families who 00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:23.540 have lost loved ones are, you know, sitting in their rows far apart and it does look weird and it 00:10:23.540 --> 00:10:29.160 does feel like unproduced and it's not the best, you know, the band is not doing the greatest job 00:10:29.160 --> 00:10:37.440 and still you could just see like a very tangible, um, healing almost as it was like, we've, 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:42.200 we carried this grief, um, cause we, as a campus, you know, as a, um, as a campus, 00:10:42.200 --> 00:10:46.120 we're the second biggest campus at our, you know, location. So there's about a thousand people 00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:52.100 in my campus, but we were kind of carrying this loss, this burden virtually, you know, 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:57.820 distanced for a while. So to be back in the room, it was just caught me so off guard. And I was like, 00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:01.560 I watched it happen. I was like, Oh, I have to tell somebody about this. And I popped on Facebook 00:11:01.560 --> 00:11:06.320 and there was your post. And I was like, okay, cool. I'll share it here. Cause then we did do a 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:13.720 lot of digital, uh, shepherding, weight carrying, grieving all that. Um, but then it was just a 00:11:13.720 --> 00:11:18.800 cool moment to be able to celebrate, um, just, just the beginning. Cause it's been a bleak. I mean, 00:11:19.340 --> 00:11:25.860 yeah, it's just, I, I, you know, it's not, there's not a lot of hoorah jumping around. There's not a lot 00:11:25.860 --> 00:11:32.920 of celebration stuff from us. Um, and so it was really cool to have a very tangible, real moment 00:11:32.920 --> 00:11:37.700 where it was just like, Oh yeah, the Holy Spirit's been doing, you know, doing its thing the whole 00:11:37.700 --> 00:11:42.580 time. Um, and we were just kind of walking and doing our best in obedient footsteps, you know? 00:11:42.940 --> 00:11:49.240 And so even just to kind of set the temperature and the tone here, completely like respectful, 00:11:49.240 --> 00:11:55.240 not joking around about this scenario, but, but the reality is, is like within New York, 00:11:55.240 --> 00:12:00.960 and I know there's been lots of losses. Don't want to get political 200,000 deaths close to it, 00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:08.700 or at this point beyond it as this, as this podcast publishes. And we're, we're as, as a con as a 00:12:08.700 --> 00:12:14.500 country, we're, we're dealing with what this loss means and how to manage it. And it's, uh, it just 00:12:14.500 --> 00:12:20.060 really kind of blindsided me. Wow. This one church community and specifically you guys are a multi-site 00:12:20.060 --> 00:12:24.620 church. It sounds like. And so this is this one campus has experienced 25 00:12:24.620 --> 00:12:31.560 losses. And I believe you said that it was kind of upfront, kind of March, April, May, early on in the, 00:12:31.560 --> 00:12:38.140 in the pandemic as that went through. And then your curve kind of leveled off a little bit. What was 00:12:38.140 --> 00:12:45.220 the, so, so healing, um, like it was first off, I mean, kind of back up, what has been the, the, 00:12:45.300 --> 00:12:53.040 the temperature of the staff, not 104, but just like the, the, we do that. I'm sure you do that a lot, 00:12:53.040 --> 00:13:00.180 but like what, what's the, I, I, I know what one death, the weight that that carries on me two or 00:13:00.180 --> 00:13:06.080 three, like I, I did a funeral once where, uh, it was a murder suicide thing and entire family had 00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:11.940 died. And so it was like five people. And that, that weighed a ton on me. It was, it was a family 00:13:11.940 --> 00:13:18.100 related that, that had gone. This is 25 people that had, that had gone through this. What, what was 00:13:18.100 --> 00:13:22.880 the toll that took on the staff? What was that environment? It was, um, you know, as you would 00:13:22.880 --> 00:13:29.580 expect, it was intense. Um, and we were just coming out of a really intense season. I think most churches 00:13:29.580 --> 00:13:35.260 were, um, coming out of Christmas, January, February, especially in the Northeast, it's cold. 00:13:35.580 --> 00:13:40.600 Um, you know, the long dark winter is real up here, um, along with it already being a spiritually cold 00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:47.000 place. So as far as, um, just the energy level of our staff, you know, uh, we joke about our scrappy 00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:53.980 insurgency because, um, I, I, I lead a team of four, um, part-time ladies who are just absolute 00:13:53.980 --> 00:14:01.880 powerhouses. Um, and they are, uh, just incredible in their, in their giftings and in their work. But 00:14:01.880 --> 00:14:08.780 we were exhausted, uh, in November, my, my mother's, uh, my wife's mother passed. And then in December 00:14:08.780 --> 00:14:15.500 and January, two of our elders lost their parents. Um, and so, so this grief season had, we were like, 00:14:15.620 --> 00:14:21.100 okay, we were resting. We were, you know, practicing some lament. Uh, we were just digging deep and I, 00:14:21.160 --> 00:14:25.380 you know, I'm 29 year old, 29 year old years old. I had never done a funeral before. And in 00:14:25.380 --> 00:14:30.060 those three months and I have a young campus, it's not like we're, um, a bit older. It's not 00:14:30.060 --> 00:14:35.500 like we've been around for a long time. We're four years old or five years old. And, um, so we had 00:14:35.500 --> 00:14:40.820 just been kind of doing this. I had just done my first two funerals as a pastor ever. Um, cause you 00:14:40.820 --> 00:14:48.980 don't do a lot of funerals in student ministry. And, um, so we were just exhausted and, um, and then 00:14:48.980 --> 00:14:52.560 with Easter, you know, on its way. So we were, we were learning, we were practicing, we're kind 00:14:52.560 --> 00:14:56.880 of figuring out. So that's kind of where we were as a staff. We were just, and we were new. I started 00:14:56.880 --> 00:15:03.060 as the lead pastor last July. So I had barely been there six months, um, as the physical campus 00:15:03.060 --> 00:15:08.800 pastor. I had been working online before then. Um, so there was just a lot. I mean, it was a heavy, 00:15:08.900 --> 00:15:16.440 heavy season. Yeah. And, um, so yeah, from, from there, it, it kind of just felt, you know, 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:22.900 just from the beginning of the whole COVID crisis, uh, we had someone pass away early and it was a 00:15:22.900 --> 00:15:28.720 member of our church. Um, and it was, you know, someone who was deeply, deeply involved. We, you 00:15:28.720 --> 00:15:33.740 know, there's a variety of spectrum for us on, uh, members who were deeply involved versus members. 00:15:33.860 --> 00:15:38.900 We saw, you know, Christmas and Easter, things like that. Um, cause Catholic culture's very real 00:15:38.900 --> 00:15:43.980 up here. Uh, and so we have a lot of that, but the first person that we lost, um, you know, 00:15:43.980 --> 00:15:49.000 her husband dropped her off at the hospital for a skin issue and she didn't come out, you know, 00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:53.460 72 hours later, she was, she was gone. So it was like right off the bat and that was early. That 00:15:53.460 --> 00:15:58.340 was at the end of March, beginning of April. And, um, so it was just kind of right off the bat. 00:15:58.420 --> 00:16:02.200 We felt like we were on our laurels, like not knowing what to do. And then 00:16:02.200 --> 00:16:07.640 another week. And, and so it, it became overwhelming really fast. 00:16:07.980 --> 00:16:13.760 Are stories like this common out of, of New York churches? Like, do you, are like, 00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:17.940 where did that much loss concentrated within communities? I mean, lots of people have died 00:16:17.940 --> 00:16:23.520 there. Is that, is that a, a continuation? Like, can other people tell the story? 00:16:23.900 --> 00:16:28.800 Yeah. Um, I, I have connected with, I mean, just some of the local pastors here was actually 00:16:28.800 --> 00:16:33.380 one of the, one of the few things that we really, um, felt like was a worthy celebration 00:16:33.380 --> 00:16:38.760 for us was, um, in this season, cause our church is a little larger, you know, larger churches 00:16:38.760 --> 00:16:44.440 in the Northeast are not very common. And, um, so a lot of the local parishes, a couple of 00:16:44.440 --> 00:16:51.040 the, um, the synagogues in our area who were experiencing a very similar trend. It probably, 00:16:51.040 --> 00:16:57.080 it wasn't a less of a, um, not quite to scale as ours, um, just as far as percentage wise, 00:16:57.080 --> 00:17:01.100 but, you know, three, four, five people in a, in a congregation in a smaller parish or 00:17:01.100 --> 00:17:04.400 something like that, it was really intense. And, you know, in our faith tradition, we talked 00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:08.540 to cameras all the time. It's a little bit more normal. Whereas for, you know, the Catholic 00:17:08.540 --> 00:17:13.640 priests down the road and, um, you know, for, for different faith traditions, they didn't 00:17:13.640 --> 00:17:17.800 have that. So it was a really unique thing that we got to do. Um, we put on a little 00:17:17.800 --> 00:17:25.160 like digital conference for some of our local churches to just learn and resource them with 00:17:25.160 --> 00:17:30.980 our technology stuff to help them set up for, you know, virtual end of life, uh, you know, 00:17:31.060 --> 00:17:33.500 ceremonies and all the different things that come along with that. 00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:38.120 Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's crazy the things in this COVID season that, that we're learning 00:17:38.120 --> 00:17:43.740 or that we're having to do. And, and like, I, I've a friend of mine wrote, wrote a blog 00:17:43.740 --> 00:17:48.620 for the church digital about a funeral that he led. He was in Texas. And I want to say 00:17:48.620 --> 00:17:54.820 it was his, um, somebody who's related to him, maybe his mother-in-law, step-mom, somebody, 00:17:54.940 --> 00:17:59.080 grandma that had died personally. We'll link to it in the show notes where he, he just kind 00:17:59.080 --> 00:18:05.100 of pastorally talked about like how he, uh, experienced and, and how he pastored and 00:18:05.100 --> 00:18:12.740 shepherd. Uh, but you know, in this situation, you're 20, 25 of, of these funerals in addition 00:18:12.740 --> 00:18:20.600 to the, that's an interesting wrinkle resourcing and helping other churches learn how to take 00:18:20.600 --> 00:18:25.600 their people through, through the grieving process of, of what that looked like physical 00:18:25.600 --> 00:18:31.440 and or digital. So maybe even just explain some of that to me. Like where were the funerals, 00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:36.580 were they, were they physical? Were they digital? Was it like a mix of it? What, what did the 00:18:36.580 --> 00:18:40.700 grieving process kind of look like? Once again, completely want to be respectful, but just trying 00:18:40.700 --> 00:18:49.500 to imagine what, um, how you're being pastoral in this season where we don't have access necessarily 00:18:49.500 --> 00:18:55.160 to the buildings like we're typically used to having. Yeah, that was, I mean, that was the 00:18:55.160 --> 00:19:02.080 challenge, right? Shepherding, uh, being able to pastor someone on a screen in one of the worst 00:19:02.080 --> 00:19:07.900 moments of their life. Um, I think we've gotten pretty good at it. At least I feel like, um, 00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:12.160 we're getting there where we're really engaging each other and being able to pastor, you know, 00:19:12.180 --> 00:19:17.520 each other through some of just life's, you know, crisis moments. And, but death, I feel 00:19:17.520 --> 00:19:25.540 like I hadn't never thought about tackling digitally. So, um, we were not good at it at first. Um, you 00:19:25.540 --> 00:19:32.020 know, and we, I don't, I don't know if we're great at it now, but, um, we did a lot of, uh, just 00:19:32.020 --> 00:19:40.740 reflecting at first, uh, after the first few, um, after about the fifth, like loss, we, we kind of looked 00:19:40.740 --> 00:19:45.280 at each other as a staff and we were like, oh, you know, this is, this is going to become so much more 00:19:45.280 --> 00:19:50.420 than just a funeral, uh, for so many people because of what we were watching. We were watching people 00:19:50.420 --> 00:19:56.180 having to drop off their loved ones and then not see them alive again. Um, you know, and that was 00:19:56.180 --> 00:20:01.360 really difficult to just comprehend for myself. And I didn't have anybody loved one, you know, I loved 00:20:01.360 --> 00:20:07.040 one in that seat. So, uh, after the, about the third or fourth funeral, and then we had like the 00:20:07.040 --> 00:20:11.200 fifth or sixth loss, we knew we were going to be doing more. Um, we kind of just took a step back 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:15.080 as a team and I was like, okay, I've only done a few of these. I don't feel like we're doing them 00:20:15.080 --> 00:20:19.400 very well. I feel like we're not doing, uh, there's like something, there's a ministry opportunity 00:20:19.400 --> 00:20:24.520 we're missing here. Like there's something not clicking. And, um, so we stepped back and we just 00:20:24.520 --> 00:20:28.520 talked and we, you know, it turned out my whole staff and I, like none of us had ever led a funeral 00:20:28.520 --> 00:20:33.020 or other than the ones that we had done in our building, because so often those are, you know, 00:20:33.120 --> 00:20:36.880 weddings and funerals, the senior pastor or the lead pastor handles that. It's not like 00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:42.940 a renowned mentorship moment, um, in the, in there, but yet, um, I was like, okay, well, 00:20:43.180 --> 00:20:49.040 let's start doing that. Let's turn this into a discipleship moment for, um, our teams. And so 00:20:49.040 --> 00:20:55.220 let's, you know, put together a couple of different volunteer teams to handle funerals and meals. And, 00:20:55.220 --> 00:21:01.180 um, wakes are very common up here. Um, so how are we going to set up, you know, drive by wakes? Okay, 00:21:01.180 --> 00:21:07.280 let's set up a hospitality team for drive through wakes. And, you know, let's make sure we're there 00:21:07.280 --> 00:21:12.700 with bottles and masks and, you know, grabbers and six feet trays and all those things. Let's just 00:21:12.700 --> 00:21:18.980 figure it out. And so it wasn't anything incredibly systematic, um, which to a systems person like me, 00:21:18.980 --> 00:21:23.480 that really drove me nuts. I was like, what are we doing? Like how, how, and I was like, and, um, 00:21:23.480 --> 00:21:28.820 our campus director, uh, Megan, she's like, you can't systematically plan end of life stuff, Corey. 00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:33.320 You have to just, you'd have to just lean in. And that was what we did. We just spent some time 00:21:33.320 --> 00:21:38.580 leaning into, and they were all different. Some of them were celebratory because, uh, you know, 00:21:38.600 --> 00:21:44.640 they lived a long and healthy life and some of them were really painful. You know, uh, a lot of them 00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:52.340 were really painful in that the loss was just five, 10 years, 15 years too soon. Um, and all with, 00:21:52.420 --> 00:21:56.560 you know, underlying health conditions, all those different things, but it was just back to back to 00:21:56.560 --> 00:22:01.060 back to back to back. It felt like it wasn't stopping. So we knew we couldn't do it alone. So 00:22:01.060 --> 00:22:06.780 we built, we built kind of a little, a little funeral army is what I called them. It's a little dark, 00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:13.820 I know, but we, um, we just, it was what we kind of became was just, how are we going to, um, do this? Not 00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:19.280 so that we don't get stuck here. Right. So that we don't get stuck in all the grief and all the 00:22:19.280 --> 00:22:25.360 loss and all the energy that it costs to be in that place and to do it well. So, um, it was a true, 00:22:25.360 --> 00:22:31.260 you know, kind of carrying one another's burdens season for us. Um, so that was kind of, you know, 00:22:31.260 --> 00:22:35.020 to circle back, that was what was so beautiful about being in the building. Um, cause I know it's 00:22:35.020 --> 00:22:38.580 been happening. I know it's been happening in people's living rooms. They tell us, um, you know, 00:22:38.580 --> 00:22:42.300 they love worshiping online, love worshiping with their family and their homes, but it was just, 00:22:42.740 --> 00:22:48.180 it was nice for me as pastor to be able to see it. Um, you know, we've, we exercised a lot of our 00:22:48.180 --> 00:22:53.880 faith muscle in the last few months. So it was, it filled my tank to be able to see it, you know? 00:22:53.980 --> 00:23:00.760 I'll bet. What was this idea of, of the, um, oh gosh, I just blanked on the term to the, the kind of 00:23:00.760 --> 00:23:05.840 the drive through the wakes and doing that. I've been never occurred to me, you know, to do something 00:23:05.840 --> 00:23:10.180 like that, just as, as, and even as I'm talking with churches about doing things like, like that, 00:23:10.580 --> 00:23:16.080 that aspect of the, of the mourning process with that is, that's beautiful. And the fact that you're 00:23:16.080 --> 00:23:21.520 utilizing volunteers and other people within the church to, to serve the community, to serve their 00:23:21.520 --> 00:23:28.180 own body by, by doing these things, um, is, is just beautiful. When casting vision to the volunteers, 00:23:28.180 --> 00:23:34.140 what was, what was that like? Were they excited to be part of it? Did they need to like, what, 00:23:34.220 --> 00:23:38.860 what concerns did they have like in this COVID season to engage with people in that space? Like, 00:23:38.860 --> 00:23:40.700 just maybe tell me some of those stories. 00:23:41.300 --> 00:23:47.420 Yeah, there was, I mean, there's, there still are, um, for us, uh, psychologically COVID's impact, 00:23:47.420 --> 00:23:51.280 I think is, you know, for our specifically, we're seeing it in our volunteer teams. 00:23:51.740 --> 00:23:58.560 There is a lot of that. Um, so there's a lot of hesitation. Um, so there's a lot of people who 00:23:58.560 --> 00:24:02.140 want to serve. And I think that's one of the biggest voids that we have felt. We're a very 00:24:02.140 --> 00:24:08.660 volunteer driven church, um, low staff ratios. Um, and that's, uh, you know, a lot of multi-site 00:24:08.660 --> 00:24:15.080 churches I know are in that boat. So our volunteers were, uh, itching for something to do. They like, 00:24:15.120 --> 00:24:21.380 how do we help? Um, we, we're feeling this. And, um, they did, they did an incredible job feeling it 00:24:21.380 --> 00:24:26.400 and, and letting it be fuel. So, uh, for those who weren't comfortable, we had them writing cards, 00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:30.480 you know, we had them, uh, reaching out and putting on, um, we have some people who were not 00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:35.820 comfortable, but, um, a couple of our older people, you know, they love their Facebook. So 00:24:35.820 --> 00:24:42.100 they put together Facebook memorial pages and, you know, they just, um, something else we did 00:24:42.100 --> 00:24:47.280 something kind of, we learned through, uh, our church online experience was, you know, just engaging 00:24:47.280 --> 00:24:51.820 with people. So you put out a memorial page, okay, engage with them in the comments because then I can 00:24:51.820 --> 00:24:56.660 show, you know, the loved ones who are grieving, look at what everybody's saying, right? Look at how 00:24:56.660 --> 00:25:01.900 we're not together, right? You don't get to look at each other's eyes for this funeral, but as we go 00:25:01.900 --> 00:25:05.660 through this memorial, like throughout it, just read because that what you're reading on that 00:25:05.660 --> 00:25:10.600 screen, someone on the other side of that screen is feeling that is thinking that, right? So 00:25:10.600 --> 00:25:17.860 helping to kind of, uh, guide people through, uh, digital experiences like that, it was bumpy. 00:25:18.080 --> 00:25:22.880 You know, there was a lot of, I can't get my tablet. I can't get my internet. You know, 00:25:22.940 --> 00:25:29.520 it was a lot of very basic stuff that I think, um, it was, it was really cool for us, even as we 00:25:29.520 --> 00:25:34.700 stayed launching and kind of forming our online experience on the other side of church, it was like, oh, 00:25:35.500 --> 00:25:39.340 come back to the basics, make sure we're doing all this stuff, right. Let's, let's really make sure, 00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:42.440 you know, we're handling the basic navigational stuff correctly. 00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:48.880 And I love all of that, you know, and just having the, making sure the ministry component 00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:53.500 isn't in place or the opportunity you have to minister to, to the, to the body, to the people 00:25:53.500 --> 00:25:59.400 that, that God's giving you access to. We're, the funerals where the people, um, you know, 00:25:59.460 --> 00:26:04.300 obviously there are people that are attached to the church, you know, either intimately 00:26:04.300 --> 00:26:09.140 or loosely, maybe it's, it's, you know, more of an outsider, but they consider your church, 00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:15.300 your church. Where were there opportunities to, uh, for, for, for life change, for some 00:26:15.300 --> 00:26:21.220 deeper conversations, uh, evangelism, talking to people who are cold to Christ? Like how did, 00:26:21.480 --> 00:26:26.280 how did God maybe move in that area in context of, of what you were doing there with your church? 00:26:26.460 --> 00:26:30.920 Yeah. It's, um, we're, you know, I feel like we're just beginning to see some of that fruit, 00:26:30.920 --> 00:26:37.020 uh, as, as far as like tangible steps. Um, you know, if we're, if I, if my next steps pastor was 00:26:37.020 --> 00:26:41.360 in my ear, you know, he'd be like, talk about the steps, uh, cause that's so important. And we love 00:26:41.360 --> 00:26:49.000 those steps, but what we see is kind of like the more, um, the, just the more like tangible things is, 00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:54.000 uh, you know, families of those who have lost, who are, uh, you know, in different faith 00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:59.640 traditions, they had a lot of questions about, well, why did you, uh, why did you do this? 00:26:59.840 --> 00:27:04.120 Uh, you know, uh, in, in Catholic culture, it's the Requiem mass. I didn't do a Requiem mass. 00:27:04.320 --> 00:27:08.900 I didn't do some of the other traditional. So that's, we face a lot of that here. So I got a lot 00:27:08.900 --> 00:27:12.900 of questions. That was probably one of the best things to come out of it was, well, why is it this 00:27:12.900 --> 00:27:17.580 way? Okay. Well, now I get to talk about X, Y, Z characteristics about what we believe. And 00:27:17.580 --> 00:27:23.560 that was one of the coolest things. And then the fruit out of that was as we built out teams 00:27:23.560 --> 00:27:30.400 and kind of empowered our volunteers to do that, then our volunteers were the ones handling those 00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:34.900 kinds of conversations and they were doing it excellently. So now there's relationships. We 00:27:34.900 --> 00:27:39.660 have a lot of people who are the, there's virtual small groups. We have a lot of those happening right 00:27:39.660 --> 00:27:44.960 now. So they're all connecting. Um, and so that's been one of the tangible ways is, you know, 00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:50.140 our volunteers have connected really well by just caring, by sending, we're still sending 00:27:50.140 --> 00:27:54.820 notes, still sending encouragement, still praying with people. Um, you know, so that, that's 00:27:54.820 --> 00:27:56.580 probably the most tangible thing coming out of that. 00:27:57.100 --> 00:28:05.000 Well, I, you know, I can think of dozens of challenges, like, uh, issues, problems, things 00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:10.340 that churches in your position doing what you were doing would, would struggle with, like, 00:28:10.340 --> 00:28:19.380 just because it's, it's not, it's not natural, um, pre-COVID to, to engage with people. People 00:28:19.380 --> 00:28:24.140 weren't comfortable with these conversations. There was a preconceived notion, uh, against 00:28:24.140 --> 00:28:30.320 kind of like video conferencing. Well, I assume was a thing, but let's just be honest. It was 00:28:30.320 --> 00:28:35.980 not the adopt. I mean, I think they went from like 10 million to 200 million users as a result of it. 00:28:35.980 --> 00:28:40.180 And so culture has engaged and has adopted as much more comfortable in that space 00:28:40.180 --> 00:28:46.620 in, you know, October compared to when we were back in March. But I'm just curious to get back 00:28:46.620 --> 00:28:51.920 to the question because I randomly just go off on tangents. Who's squirrel? What were, what were 00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:56.160 some of the biggest challenges? Like when you go back, I'm trying to figure out maybe it's 00:28:56.160 --> 00:29:02.020 technological, maybe it's cultural, maybe it's just issues, challenges, pastoring in a, in a different 00:29:02.020 --> 00:29:07.780 way. What were some of the challenges that, that you faced heading into doing something like this, 00:29:07.780 --> 00:29:13.600 pastoring people going through crisis situations via technology? 00:29:13.980 --> 00:29:21.880 Yeah, it was, uh, I, I think we learned really quickly how much, uh, especially in the Christian 00:29:21.880 --> 00:29:30.460 faith, um, you know, in the evangelical lane, uh, we count on physical expression, uh, or physical 00:29:30.460 --> 00:29:37.460 connection to convey like deep spiritual meaning. Like, uh, you know, in, even I think about, 00:29:37.560 --> 00:29:43.060 you know, all the sermon illustrations were very visual or very hands-on people. And so, 00:29:43.060 --> 00:29:48.200 um, you know, I'll never forget the first time we found out one of our, uh, her people was, 00:29:48.460 --> 00:29:52.300 she had, her husband had dropped her off in the hospital and he was, he hadn't heard. It had 00:29:52.300 --> 00:29:58.280 been two and a half days and he hadn't heard. And, um, what was going on? And, um, at that, 00:29:58.280 --> 00:30:02.040 so we were like, okay, well, let's meet, you know, and this was in the height of stay at home orders. 00:30:02.040 --> 00:30:06.780 And I was like, okay, I don't know what to do. Let's just, let's meet in the parking lot. 00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:11.720 Everybody will stay in their cars. Let's just look at each other. Um, we'll FaceTime or we'll get on a, 00:30:11.720 --> 00:30:15.520 you know, a team's call or zoom call, whatever. And you'll, we'll pray together. And, um, 00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:21.840 her husband came and he stood in the middle and in the, in that whole, um, and that whole 00:30:21.840 --> 00:30:26.400 experience is when he got a phone call that his wife had passed. And so we were literally parked 00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:33.440 around him, um, when he got that phone call and, uh, you know, and we had to process that together 00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:40.560 and, uh, none of us could give him a hug because he had just been in contact with his loved one who 00:30:40.560 --> 00:30:47.820 had passed away of COVID. And so there was not a single physical thing you could do to like ease 00:30:47.820 --> 00:30:52.980 his suffering. Right. There was, there was not a single any, and there was, you know, 15 or 20 of 00:30:52.980 --> 00:30:58.160 us volunteers and there was just, you're just sitting there holding nothing. Like I had my phone and I 00:30:58.160 --> 00:31:04.380 just, I wanted to chuck it, you know, I was like, what am I watching? Um, you know, what, what planet 00:31:04.380 --> 00:31:09.000 am I in? All the, all the things that we all felt as we hear all these things and all these stories. 00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:17.160 Right. And, um, we, you know, the funeral passage and first Thessalonians, we don't grieve like those 00:31:17.160 --> 00:31:23.360 who have no hope, uh, was like, we had to get really as a team. So here's another challenge. I mean, 00:31:23.360 --> 00:31:29.180 that moment, not having the physical connection that you just default to. I mean, I think I watched 00:31:29.180 --> 00:31:35.300 everybody start to go give him a hug and then they couldn't. Yeah. And to have the, that sort of like 00:31:35.300 --> 00:31:42.940 very blatant realization, um, you have to like really reckon your, your faith in God and your 00:31:42.940 --> 00:31:49.300 concepts of death really quickly. And, um, so we grieve like those, uh, we don't grieve like those who 00:31:49.300 --> 00:31:54.880 don't have hope and, um, or have no hope that just became sort of a rallying cry for us. It was, 00:31:54.880 --> 00:32:00.560 okay, well we have hope. Um, and where we don't have hope, we trust in the Lord and we know that 00:32:00.560 --> 00:32:05.860 he's up to something and we don't just genuinely don't know what it is. And, uh, you know, it's, 00:32:05.980 --> 00:32:12.160 and so I joked about our faith muscle, but that's so much of what it was, was I can't physically touch 00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:18.080 you. So I have to have faith that through this screen, no matter how tired or zoom fatigued you 00:32:18.080 --> 00:32:22.680 are, there's a phrase I never want to hear again, zoom fatigue. Um, but you know, no matter how zoom 00:32:22.680 --> 00:32:29.140 fatigued you are, this is where we are at. So Lord work through this digital, like this digital tool, 00:32:29.360 --> 00:32:35.640 you don't like it. Okay. It's not ideal, but it is where we are. Um, and I, and it was sort of, 00:32:35.760 --> 00:32:39.900 for us, we didn't have a lot of choice in it. It was just kind of, this is where we're at. So let's, 00:32:40.080 --> 00:32:46.100 let's absolutely, um, be wholeheartedly in it because if we're not, um, you know, if we're not 00:32:46.100 --> 00:32:52.660 wholeheartedly into the digital connecting, right, the, the, the idea that this is not a barrier, 00:32:52.660 --> 00:32:59.940 it's a real tool. Um, if we're not wholeheartedly there, then it's not just my attitude and my heart 00:32:59.940 --> 00:33:04.180 that sours at it. It's the people I'm trying to counsel. It's the people I'm trying to care for. 00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:10.380 It's the, you know, it's the husband in the worst moments of his life. So, um, it became easy then to 00:33:10.380 --> 00:33:15.980 kind of counsel our people through, well, we can have church digitally because this is where we're 00:33:15.980 --> 00:33:21.040 at, you know? So it, it helped now our, you know, our online community is pretty robust and our people 00:33:21.040 --> 00:33:25.360 are really, even though it's new, it's fresh for us still, they're really accustomed to it. Um, so 00:33:25.360 --> 00:33:31.100 it's really cool to see how those kinds of things, those patterns, those behaviors we formed over the 00:33:31.100 --> 00:33:37.260 last few months are starting to bear some fruit. Okay. So I'm, I'm putting myself literally in, 00:33:37.260 --> 00:33:42.940 in your spot. Uh, I'm, I'm in a parking lot, 15 people standing around this guy that we're praying 00:33:42.940 --> 00:33:51.120 for just found out that his, his wife died. Um, how did you, how did you show comfort to that person? 00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:56.840 You can't do it physically. Uh, there, there, I mean, his wife just died. They were, were connected. 00:33:56.960 --> 00:34:02.520 I'm guessing whatever the timelines, whatever early on, you know, it was, it was, it was just radical 00:34:02.520 --> 00:34:07.440 numbers that may have tapered off with, with more research. Finish the story for me. How, 00:34:07.620 --> 00:34:13.180 how did you show comfort to somebody in that situation? What did that, what that looked like? 00:34:13.520 --> 00:34:18.240 Um, I had some of my, my deacons there and, um, you know, they're incredible. Uh, one of them, 00:34:18.240 --> 00:34:25.900 he does, um, hospice care. So he's like, he's, um, you know, he's just, he's the old, he's the old man 00:34:25.900 --> 00:34:30.300 with wisdom who you just need at every church to be a complete family. You know, he's that guy. 00:34:30.600 --> 00:34:35.960 And, um, he just started, he just started reading out of the Psalms and, um, I couldn't tell you 00:34:35.960 --> 00:34:40.960 what Psalm he read. I don't remember, you know, it's all such a blur. Um, but there was, you know, 00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:44.920 so he read and then, and then we just started praying, you know, there was, there wasn't a whole 00:34:44.920 --> 00:34:50.620 lot to like say, I didn't have any words, you know, I was, I mean, I had words, but I couldn't say 00:34:50.620 --> 00:34:57.020 them out loud. Um, uh, I was, uh, you know, I was so, I was so frustrated. I was so like, 00:34:57.040 --> 00:35:00.960 I can't believe we gathered here to pray for healing and to pray for peace. And now we're 00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:06.240 in this moment. Um, and I think that was about then that I started to realize, Hey, this is like 00:35:06.240 --> 00:35:11.480 becoming a pretty serious thing that we're going to have to tackle as a campus. Um, and it just so 00:35:11.480 --> 00:35:16.400 happened that, you know, I have a background in digital church and discipleship. So we had some of 00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:22.320 these tools, um, and we were well-versed in them as a, you know, my campus team was. So it was, um, 00:35:22.760 --> 00:35:26.960 it was certainly something that we were equipped to handle. Just was, it was a lot, you know? 00:35:27.640 --> 00:35:34.420 What changes did you do digitally? How, how did your adjust digital ministry? And then did it work? 00:35:34.560 --> 00:35:39.940 Were people receptive for it? Like, or, or how did they adapt to this, to the ministry that you 00:35:39.940 --> 00:35:45.160 were doing digitally? Um, so we, we don't have, we didn't have a robust groups ministry 00:35:45.160 --> 00:35:52.260 pre COVID. Um, we didn't even really do a lot digitally. Um, we, we, we have launched a lot 00:35:52.260 --> 00:35:57.180 of campuses really fast and they have grown. Like we have seen a lot of really impactful fruit from 00:35:57.180 --> 00:36:02.320 our physical campuses. So we didn't, um, we, our small groups are in our volunteer teams. So we 00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:06.960 didn't really have a lot of small groups. It was like volunteer teams. Um, so they started me, 00:36:07.080 --> 00:36:11.860 I mean, they've, they've met digitally kind of on and off. So that part wasn't the, like 00:36:11.860 --> 00:36:18.860 the, the big adjustment for our people. Um, they, they pivoted to zoom calls instead of 00:36:18.860 --> 00:36:25.080 in-person calls. Um, they, they, you know, volunteered in droves to man church online 00:36:25.080 --> 00:36:31.380 platform that, that was like, to me was one of the easier things. If that's, I think it's 00:36:31.380 --> 00:36:36.600 unique maybe because our church is just so volunteer heavy and we've always been. So our 00:36:36.600 --> 00:36:41.800 people are really flexible that way. It's like a real blessing of where we are. Um, so we made 00:36:41.800 --> 00:36:45.860 that, that pivot was pretty quick. And we just kind of said like, yeah, meet with your teams, 00:36:45.860 --> 00:36:52.220 but also there's, you know, a solid half of our church who's not. So invite them into, and we've, 00:36:52.300 --> 00:36:58.820 we've, um, you know, it's, uh, it's not like anything fancy. We didn't do anything fancy to get 00:36:58.820 --> 00:37:04.720 through the season. Uh, we had once a month, um, one of the elders at our campus, uh, he loves to 00:37:04.720 --> 00:37:12.800 teach. He's, uh, um, a neuroscientist neurologist. He's a rocket surgeon. That's how I think of him. 00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:18.920 He's brilliant. And he loves, loves, loves the word. So he just puts on like three hour seminars 00:37:18.920 --> 00:37:25.680 about topic X. And, um, you know, it didn't do a lot to reach the unchurch, but our church people, 00:37:25.920 --> 00:37:30.420 um, it, it was just so, you know, so supplemental for them to have some of that. They'd, there would 00:37:30.420 --> 00:37:35.580 be like, I'd, I'd hop on some Saturdays and he'd have like 80 people, not 100 people, 80 people, 00:37:35.580 --> 00:37:39.600 um, on his calls, which was just cool. It was just one of those things. So we didn't do a lot of, 00:37:39.600 --> 00:37:46.400 um, you know, super intentional digital switch style stuff other than the things that we had in place. 00:37:46.400 --> 00:37:50.760 We just helped to transform, you know, we got the text to connect things. A lot of things I had 00:37:50.760 --> 00:37:55.640 been banging drums for, for a long time, it kind of forced that. So, which was great. And, um, we've 00:37:55.640 --> 00:38:01.000 seen a lot of fruit out of some of those big steps. I think that we just hadn't really made as a church 00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:07.280 because, you know, um, I joke, um, up here, you know, in the, in the Northeast, I think that the, 00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:12.380 the church development, church growth cycle, we're like, we lag about 10 to 15 years behind. 00:38:12.640 --> 00:38:17.640 So some of the things that are really worked in sort of the Southeast and in the West are like 00:38:17.640 --> 00:38:22.360 just starting to work in the Northeast. So physical campuses, like the multi-site models really 00:38:22.360 --> 00:38:26.360 do it well. And actually a lot of churches in the Hudson Valley. So it's kind of cool. 00:38:26.720 --> 00:38:32.040 Okay. Interesting. Um, you mean, you mentioned digital fatigue earlier, or I said, yeah, I think 00:38:32.040 --> 00:38:38.240 you said Zoom fatigue was, was the throwaway line, you know? And so you, you, you, your, your people 00:38:38.240 --> 00:38:43.580 weren't, were not able to meet. They're going through this crisis. They're falling back on Zoom. 00:38:43.580 --> 00:38:49.740 You mentioned Microsoft Teams, these different, you know, uh, video conferencing platforms to talk. 00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:54.920 Are you guys experiencing kind of Zoom fatigue off of that? Like right now, wow. Your church, 00:38:55.040 --> 00:38:56.440 how are they holding up? 00:38:56.720 --> 00:39:02.580 I would say there's definitely, uh, there's a portion and, and I honestly, I recommend it. I'm 00:39:02.580 --> 00:39:07.400 like, Hey, if you're really fatigued by the digital thing, please come to the campus. We don't have a 00:39:07.400 --> 00:39:11.520 lot of room at our campus right now. You know, we went from being able to seat 225 per service, 00:39:11.520 --> 00:39:18.120 having like five services to seating like 90 people now. So I, yeah. And that's, yes, with 00:39:18.120 --> 00:39:22.520 all the New York state requirements, it's very interesting. So I just encourage, I'm like, Hey, 00:39:22.560 --> 00:39:27.860 if you are that, if you are fatigued, if you are drained by seeing my face on the screen, 00:39:28.240 --> 00:39:32.240 come see my face in person. Like, and so that was kind of the vision cast for reopening for 00:39:32.240 --> 00:39:39.840 us was for those who have just had like really tough, please come and let us, let us just see 00:39:39.840 --> 00:39:44.620 your face. Let us cry with you. Let us, um, we can't hug you. We won't, but let us just pray 00:39:44.620 --> 00:39:52.220 and encourage you this way. And, um, so there is, there is a good portion, honestly, a lot of the 00:39:52.220 --> 00:39:56.940 people who carried the burdens heavily with us in the first few months of this are the ones who are 00:39:56.940 --> 00:40:03.200 fatigued by the digital thing. They, and they, and they, you know, there's a lot of positives and 00:40:03.200 --> 00:40:09.120 they are very, um, affirming that it's an effective tool and it's important ministry that we have, 00:40:09.220 --> 00:40:14.180 but they're, uh, they're ready to just kind of be back. So there is a segment, there is a segment, 00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:18.660 but now not nearly as large as I thought we would have coming out of this. I thought they were, 00:40:18.880 --> 00:40:22.220 um, that thought there would be a larger resistance for it. And there wasn't. 00:40:22.220 --> 00:40:27.940 Oh, I mean, it's the digital fatigue is not digital's fault. It's the lack of physical, 00:40:27.940 --> 00:40:32.480 uh, no. And I do, I do talk digital planting and somebody is going to be like, but Jeff, you said, 00:40:32.580 --> 00:40:37.640 yes, there, there is, there is an extreme group today that's doing digital only church planting. 00:40:37.640 --> 00:40:43.180 And those are meeting a particular type of person, but the average person in America today has two 00:40:43.180 --> 00:40:48.680 passports. Like there's the physical passport and there's the digital passport. Yeah. I want to be on 00:40:48.680 --> 00:40:53.920 social media and I want to connect with new people, but I want to also sit at a sushi restaurant and, 00:40:53.920 --> 00:40:59.760 and, and, and drink my green tea surrounded by friends. Like, and so you need, you need to be 00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:06.100 able to utilize both of those. And, and digital fatigue is not digital's fault. It's the lack of 00:41:06.100 --> 00:41:12.240 physical. Uh, and so moving forward, you know, I, I think there's, there's places for, for both, 00:41:12.240 --> 00:41:19.020 but yeah, so you're going back to the building. How many services have you actually done or like how 00:41:19.020 --> 00:41:24.220 many weeks have you run? Where are you at right now? This coming Sunday will be our third Sunday 00:41:24.220 --> 00:41:29.220 back in the building. Um, so we've been open for two weeks prior and we're, we're just holding three 00:41:29.220 --> 00:41:34.320 services on a Sunday. We used to do a two day, Saturday, Sunday split. Um, but just resourcing and 00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:39.520 right now and all the things that we have to do to keep the building open and safe, then it just didn't 00:41:39.520 --> 00:41:45.660 make sense to me. I mean, that, that makes total sense, but what, what are you, what, what has that, 00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:51.200 what has the, the, the, the, I keep wanting to say temperature and I find that incredibly inappropriate 00:41:51.200 --> 00:41:55.920 in this conversation. What, what's, what's been the tone? What's been the feeling? What, what's, 00:41:55.980 --> 00:42:01.540 what's the feel of, of those services? Oh, it's, it's so very different. And, uh, I think we've all 00:42:01.540 --> 00:42:10.280 kind of acknowledged it, um, because we watching, um, yeah, watching this, I don't want it to sound 00:42:10.280 --> 00:42:14.000 negative. And so I'm, I'm, I want to be really careful because it's, it's not to me a negative 00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:19.200 watching on screen on experience. And a lot of us, and we joked about it as a team, you know, 00:42:19.200 --> 00:42:23.660 we're all watching different churches and filling our own cups and our own hearts with, you know, 00:42:23.660 --> 00:42:28.500 what God's doing ever in other places around the country. But we watch so many experiences, 00:42:28.500 --> 00:42:35.040 you know, even just our own for the past seven months. So I think subconsciously many people 00:42:35.040 --> 00:42:40.360 like envision themselves in the room with a crowd when they were watching that thing. So when they 00:42:40.360 --> 00:42:44.560 get to the building, it just, it feels really unsatisfactory. It feels, they were like, we've 00:42:44.560 --> 00:42:49.820 been watching this for six months. Why does it feel weird to be here right now? And yet it does, 00:42:50.280 --> 00:42:55.280 uh, it just kind of feels funny. Um, so we're working on like, how do we make it feel less, 00:42:55.280 --> 00:43:02.640 uh, just distant because it is, it's distant. It's, you know, it's anonymous. Whereas, 00:43:03.360 --> 00:43:08.060 you know, the anonymity is what we all had for seven months. We almost don't want to be anonymous. 00:43:08.060 --> 00:43:16.020 We want our faces seen, you know? Um, and so it's, it's funny to think that I know more people. I can 00:43:16.020 --> 00:43:22.000 identify more people through our church online than I can in the building just because of the face mask 00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:27.920 in the distance. Like I can, I can actually physically, me, know more people right now digitally, 00:43:27.920 --> 00:43:33.100 you know, than I can in my in-person building. It's just such a funny thing to like reckon with. 00:43:33.600 --> 00:43:37.080 Um, but yet that's like one of the challenges for us now as a church, you know, managing, 00:43:37.220 --> 00:43:42.540 I'm sure a lot of people are in that boat, managing our division of resource for, uh, 00:43:42.540 --> 00:43:45.440 maintaining all the online stuff while we're back in person. 00:43:45.840 --> 00:43:52.020 Which actually leads into exactly kind of the next question I want to ask is, well, and, and, and it's 00:43:52.020 --> 00:43:57.420 funny when I ask churches and have these conversations, like there's no solid answer. People do not know how 00:43:57.420 --> 00:44:02.520 to answer the balance between physical and digital. The average answer is this is what we're trying 00:44:02.520 --> 00:44:08.520 right now. And we're going to figure out kind of where we go from here. So experiment, try some 00:44:08.520 --> 00:44:14.640 different things, but as you're looking at your, at your church, what is, what is that balance? What 00:44:14.640 --> 00:44:20.580 role is digital is online going to continue to play for you in the moving forward in the months to come? 00:44:21.340 --> 00:44:26.660 I, I think, and I, the way that I've seen it, uh, I kind of see it playing out for us at Grace is I 00:44:26.660 --> 00:44:32.900 see it as a true discipleship tool. Um, I don't know if we'll ever be the really big online only 00:44:32.900 --> 00:44:39.600 campus, or I don't know if we'll have a, I, I, we have had a lot of really good fruit, but, um, I think 00:44:39.600 --> 00:44:45.660 for us, the, the, the biggest win is taking all of our core, you know, pathway processes, which are 00:44:45.660 --> 00:44:51.220 all really good from in-person and finally making that transition, um, to digitizing them and then 00:44:51.220 --> 00:44:58.040 using them well. Um, that is the thing that we have in person, we have nailed. Uh, and so translating 00:44:58.040 --> 00:45:05.680 that digitally now, that's been one of the biggest wins for us is, um, is really, you know, kind of 00:45:05.680 --> 00:45:09.120 honing in. That's what digital, that's, I think that's how we're going to manage, right? Cause we 00:45:09.120 --> 00:45:12.680 don't have the resourcing. We don't have the video editing. We don't have, and hardly any of the 00:45:12.680 --> 00:45:18.740 equipment, you know, like we are, uh, very just kind of a lagging behind is again, a term I use for the 00:45:18.740 --> 00:45:25.380 Northeast. Um, in a lot of the things infrastructure wise to make digital ministry really thrive. 00:45:25.380 --> 00:45:32.200 We don't have those things as much as we do have kind of the digital discipleship stuff. We can do 00:45:32.200 --> 00:45:35.400 that. So I think that's where we're going to, um, because it's already naturally what we're going 00:45:35.400 --> 00:45:40.060 to, so we're just going to kind of lean into those things, um, with our kind of the future of the 00:45:40.060 --> 00:45:45.340 online ministry. Yeah. Well, and honestly, it may be a little off topic, but if you're, if you're 00:45:45.340 --> 00:45:51.120 doing your physical services and, you know, and people are wanting to gather physically, and it sounds 00:45:51.120 --> 00:45:55.520 like in this season with everything that New York's been going through, like, I think there's, there's an 00:45:55.520 --> 00:46:01.400 importance in gathering physically. One of the fidgetal mindsets, something that would digital can do 00:46:01.400 --> 00:46:07.520 that could compliment it would be that discipleship process. Like that's, would be a very powerful 00:46:07.520 --> 00:46:13.720 online digital tool that would compliment the physical services and not, not conflict with it. 00:46:13.940 --> 00:46:19.900 So often, so many churches, um, that are, you're, you're, would you say you were like, how big are 00:46:19.900 --> 00:46:25.800 you? Uh, we have eight, nine campuses. We're about to have a 10th campus actually, um, in the fall, 00:46:25.800 --> 00:46:30.040 if we ever get to launch, um, our West Point campus, cause that's a whole different thing, but, um, 00:46:30.140 --> 00:46:33.660 The whole different thing. It's a whole, yeah, we have a couple of those going. So, uh, 00:46:33.700 --> 00:46:39.080 attendance pre-COVID, uh, between four, like three, 35 and 4,000. 00:46:39.280 --> 00:46:43.260 Your particular campus. Oh, and my campus is about a thousand. Yeah. Yeah. A little less. 00:46:43.260 --> 00:46:48.140 So you got about a thousand, you got a thousand at your campus. Lots of churches who are really at 00:46:48.140 --> 00:46:54.560 that thousand mark. They, they spend so much time and energy and resources on creating a physical 00:46:54.560 --> 00:47:00.700 service and a digital service because they want the digital to be at the same standard at the same 00:47:00.700 --> 00:47:05.540 level of what the physical, but what's unfortunate is right at that thousand mark, you don't necessarily 00:47:05.540 --> 00:47:13.580 have the budget, the resources, the time, the staffing to really make that quality second service probably 00:47:13.580 --> 00:47:18.720 align digitally with as good of the quality as what you're doing physically. That's right. And so you're 00:47:18.720 --> 00:47:24.220 spending all those resources to make that work. Honest to God, I had this exact same conversation with a 00:47:24.220 --> 00:47:29.940 thousand person church earlier today. They're investing so much into, into the, to get the services to be at the 00:47:29.940 --> 00:47:35.800 same quality and they're forgetting. There's this whole other thing down here of discipleship and 00:47:35.800 --> 00:47:43.080 disciple making that if we can be more effective in that digital discipleship in the other 167 hours a 00:47:43.080 --> 00:47:47.600 week. That's right. And if we can do that, that's going to connect with physical people as well as 00:47:47.600 --> 00:47:52.080 digital people. And that's going to raise the overall standard of your church. And in time as 00:47:52.080 --> 00:47:57.820 discipleship gets better, evangelism, disciple making, and all of a sudden that thousand person 00:47:57.820 --> 00:48:05.620 kind of lid, limit roof that you get, all of a sudden you grow past it because you did infrastructure 00:48:05.620 --> 00:48:13.220 instead of trying to do the, the sexy thing with, by doing that, that online service. So I love the way, 00:48:13.280 --> 00:48:19.300 the way that you're thinking. And honestly, like I have so much respect for you right now that of how 00:48:19.300 --> 00:48:27.760 you've pastorally met the needs of the people within your community in ways that, you know, 00:48:28.220 --> 00:48:34.520 probably not too many people in this country have really dealt with a situation like that. I will 00:48:34.520 --> 00:48:42.440 have nightmares tonight of how I would have handled the guy whose wife just died. And I'm literally 00:48:42.440 --> 00:48:48.760 standing in front of him and I cannot hug him. Like, I don't know how I can, I would be the pastor 00:48:48.760 --> 00:48:52.980 and that's, and I'm a digital pastor. I should, there should be things that it's like, oh, I need, 00:48:53.040 --> 00:48:59.480 I need to have a better word to say or a phrase or something like that. But, um, I feel like I would 00:48:59.480 --> 00:49:05.160 have like given him a hug and then go home and like, just cover every inch of my body with whatever 00:49:05.160 --> 00:49:11.920 the cleansing solution. I just, I can't even, I can't even fathom that. And so how you have been able 00:49:11.920 --> 00:49:18.340 to pastor and shepherd, uh, in that environment is, is phenomenal. So thank you for being transparent 00:49:18.340 --> 00:49:23.120 here, honest a little bit, uh, open it up and walking through this. Not that you would have 00:49:23.120 --> 00:49:27.960 been dishonest in any other place, but just kind of, kind of sharing here with the audience, 00:49:28.440 --> 00:49:34.340 um, how some of the situations that you've gone through, this is, this is, this has been a great 00:49:34.340 --> 00:49:39.760 episode. Just tell me even a little bit here. Is any, any closing thoughts as, as we're landing the 00:49:39.760 --> 00:49:44.660 plane here in any things we're wrapping up? Uh, mainly a, I appreciate you saying those things. 00:49:44.660 --> 00:49:50.340 Um, Jeff, you know, this has been a very, yeah, unsexy is a good way. You know, it's just not been 00:49:50.340 --> 00:49:56.160 that. And, um, you know, and I didn't get into ministry for that, but it, it was just, it was 00:49:56.160 --> 00:50:01.240 nice to, uh, be encouraged by you to, it was even, uh, it was even cool. I would say, and I appreciate 00:50:01.240 --> 00:50:05.800 you in your ministry. Um, and just your voice, um, through that, you know, just, it was you through 00:50:05.800 --> 00:50:11.660 your Facebook page. Um, but, uh, just thank you for asking, you know, thank you for asking what's, 00:50:11.660 --> 00:50:16.920 what's the Holy Spirit doing. Uh, we need voices of encouragement. I think, um, you know, I'm young 00:50:16.920 --> 00:50:20.460 and in ministry and I've been in it my whole, I've been in church my whole life, been working behind 00:50:20.460 --> 00:50:25.520 the scenes. And, um, if there's one thing we need more of is, is more, uh, sharing, more learning, 00:50:25.640 --> 00:50:30.580 more encouraging. Um, so I really appreciate what you've done. Um, appreciate you asking me on here 00:50:30.580 --> 00:50:35.640 and just letting, you know, even for me, this has been healthy, uh, you know, to process. So I 00:50:35.640 --> 00:50:40.720 appreciate, uh, you and I appreciate you getting to share. I think the final thought is, uh, nothing 00:50:40.720 --> 00:50:45.580 we did was perfect. And, you know, you said, what would I do in those moments? I still, I have 00:50:45.580 --> 00:50:49.640 nightmares about it still. Right. Cause I don't think I did it perfectly. Um, but we did, 00:50:49.640 --> 00:50:55.400 we did something, you know, and I think that's so, um, we were, we were there, you know, and I think 00:50:55.400 --> 00:50:59.760 that's so much of what being the family of God is supposed to be, is just be there. It doesn't 00:50:59.760 --> 00:51:06.540 gotta be pretty perfect, uh, you know, or produced and just be there. So, uh, I mean, that's, that's 00:51:06.540 --> 00:51:12.820 a powerful lesson, you know, even for today. So often, you know, gosh, I remember the first time in a 00:51:12.820 --> 00:51:18.580 church environment, I heard the word excellence. And honestly, I twinged a little bit because I know what 00:51:18.820 --> 00:51:24.200 excellence means and sometimes excellence is unattainable. And often we find ourselves 00:51:24.200 --> 00:51:31.020 following down a rabbit hole of trying to achieve this excellence instead of what God has for us. 00:51:31.020 --> 00:51:37.380 And so, um, I, if, if maybe that's even the, the, the takeaway, maybe there's times for excellence, 00:51:37.380 --> 00:51:44.680 but maybe there's times to just do the ministry that, that God has, has allotted us and how you've 00:51:44.680 --> 00:51:49.960 managed to, to recognize and, and pastor and shepherd people in this situation, Corey, honestly, 00:51:50.060 --> 00:51:57.120 um, is, is very encouraging for me. Um, and, and, and it was impactful just straight up in my own 00:51:57.120 --> 00:52:03.060 life as I'm trying to find people who can tell me how the Holy Spirit has moved, uh, in, in, in, 00:52:03.060 --> 00:52:08.240 the, the, the, the, the 25 plus, you know, whatever the, the, the final number is of people who have 00:52:08.440 --> 00:52:13.400 passed away in context of your church and pastoring and shepherding physically, digitally, 00:52:13.560 --> 00:52:16.540 fidgetally, however possible in that season. 00:52:16.700 --> 00:52:18.660 It's been such a weird, hot mess of a thing. 00:52:19.320 --> 00:52:23.120 You know, the, the, the, the methods don't matter. It's, it's, it's that, it's that discipleship 00:52:23.120 --> 00:52:27.560 is that disciple making we're, we're making noise when, when we're fighting for one side 00:52:27.560 --> 00:52:32.740 versus the other, but, and we've lost sight of, of the person, the people that we're literally 00:52:32.740 --> 00:52:38.160 trying to, to do ministry with. So I love that you, you know, have been able to tell some of 00:52:38.160 --> 00:52:42.940 these stories about you're putting people first in this, um, regardless of the methods and 00:52:42.940 --> 00:52:47.400 however you've managed to, to do it. So man, thanks for the time. Thanks for, for jumping 00:52:47.400 --> 00:52:53.560 on this, uh, for Corey, uh, this is Jeff with the church digital. Thanks for joining us here 00:52:53.560 --> 00:52:55.780 on the pod and we'll see you next time. Y'all have a good day.